So many of us in recovery are dealing with spouses that are not telling the truth. It compounds the feeling of being betrayed.<P>Some spouses do it to avoid conflict. Some do it because it is part of their behavior. Some do it because they want to protect. Some do it because they don't see the benefit of telling the truth.<P>How do all of you who live with liars move on despite the lies? I got tired of beating a dead horse.... <P>Thanks.

Sadly, I have had to take a "He really BELIEVES this stuff, i just have to pity him" stance. I know that is only partly true, and i got the idea from his last wife, but it is the only thing that keeps me from despising him, a lot of the time.<BR>I know that most of it is to boost his self-esteem and to protect me, so i can at least understand it, and a lot of the time i have learned to just keep my mouth shut. Sometimes, though, i poke him a little (read: scream my head off at him) when i know he is totally off base. Oddly, he has seemed more comfortable with me when i do that, as now he does not have to hide the truth (he can really let his guard down, i guess, when he KNOWS i know the truth). <BR>I think he knows how all the lying affects people-including himself and the huge toll on his health it takes, but it is just such an ingrained habit, he can't stop it.<BR>I'm trying to learn how to provide a safe environment for him to be truthful, but my own emotions get in the way a LOT. I think i am having a little success, as I only 'lost it' once, really on the whole three day weekend (IMO. I don't know how many times HE percieves i lovebusted...).<BR>I guess plan A'ing is really the only solution...no, you can't beat a dead horse forever.

tnt<BR>This is a huge problem for me!<BR>I have come to the conclusion that my H really can't differentiate a lie from the truth in some instances. They are in such a habit of lying that they don't know how to stop. <BR>Lying as an addiction? It starts out with intent but turns into a way of life.<BR>An example of his inability to differentiate goes back to Sept. I was out of town with my son. I now know that the OW was here. My H was supposed to be at a company Xmas party. I have had three different versions of that weekend told to me. I really don't think he knows if he went to the Xmas party or not!<BR>I know that you and I have a real need for honesty. we can make our feelings known. We can tell them what we need. But in the end we have to accept that we have no control over it. We can encourage it. I think that is all.

hi was blind, I wonder if your h seems more comfortable with you screaming at him because it is pretty definite just how you feel? Maybe he is not good at picking up on feelings when things are too calm? Jut wondered-I have a bil that is sort of like that. His wife will talk to him, his kids try to, etc, but he never seems to really get how crucial things are until there is a scream-a-thon. They are going to retrouvaille next month in an attempt to help their communication. I can't blame the wife for being tired-she states that she always has to scream and be a ***** to get a response from him. <BR>TNT, I sure have no words of wisdom. My H is too honest. Is there a happy medium somewhere? I am sure there is and I am sure we will find it. <BR>Yes, it does compound those feelings of being betrayed. When I first found out all the nonsense my H had been up to, he did lie. I think it was some sick thing about protection-very misplaced. When I caught him being less than truthful, it was devastating to me. What is this sick thing they go through with the lies? If they are conflict avoiders, then they should avoid the whole issue that brings the conflict up, shouldn't they? Or is that just too sensible? <BR>Tnt, I read your response on another thread about being left while H drove away. That must have been so hard for you to read after your H's shenanigans. (((hugs)))

TNT,<P>Hi there...I have no advise for you as my husband has been very honest sometimes to the point of being brutal. <P>I know honesty is real important to me...it also really hurts.<P>Some times I think we just have to believe that God has his hands on our spouses mouths and that he knows what we can handle and what we can't. I am not sure that isn't too simple for what I am trying to say.<P>I know it much and I'm not so sure that is good either.<P>At any rate I wish I could be of more help but, alas I have no perils of wisdom. Maybe someday.<P>------------------<BR>God bless you and all of us.<P>Samantha<BR>

hey cl. yeah, it's like he won't do ANYTHING i ask him too, unless i yell. He claims to hate the yelling, but it's hard to find alternatives. It can be horribly frustrating, and i have said some really irrational things. Once, to get him to come home at a reasonable hour, before discovery, i screamed at his answering machine at work that i would kill myself and the baby if he did not come home RIGHT NOW (VERY BAD post partum depression, too), and he played the message out loud, with 'lots' of people in his office. Well, i know OW heard it, because she never let him forget it, and she has told me what a horrible mother i am for saying that. She pooh-poohed my explanation, because of course, my H is PERFECT, and i can't blame him for any of my pain, and I'm just SOOOOOO self centered...<BR>Yuck.<BR>Well, that was really off topic-sorry tnt-but i had to get that off my chest...i've been carrying it around for a long time.<BR>Oh, by the way, he DID come home rather quickly when he got the message. Talk about positive reinforcement! I've never been that insane again, thank god, but he still won't let it go, and thinks im just this controlling b*tch.<BR>no lovebusters, no lovebusters, no lovebusters.......

I go along with WS on this one. My H has lied and lied and lied to the point where he can't remember in some cases what actually happened. Like this affair resuming, he can't remember if she called or if he called or they just ran across each other at work. Then my next question is why didn't he tell me as he said he would? He doesn't remember that either. And this is the merry-go-round that led to this weekend's disclosure from him that he wants a divorce. I'm not so sure that he doesn't just want a clean slate. Of course he doesn't HAVE a clean slate with HER either. For the moment, I'm not going to ask any more questions. I don't think he can tell me the truth, and even if he does, there's no way for me to know that it is the truth. What a bummer.<P>I tell you, the OP at work is a REALLY big problem. I thought my H could handle it...he said he could. At work, maybe, but then there are the social events...

LWB-<BR>Well all that hollering used to work at home too..... Well, then I realized I wasn't gettin nowhere but satisfaction from hearing myself yell, and then of course - he yelled just louder, and we went round and round..... Guess that is why he had an affair - an escape.<P>I would like to administer truth serem, and video it for future reference. I would like to hypnotize him for the truth. Somehow, he'd deny it. He is a master at this, I think he did it soooo much in his first marriage. <P>Once when we were separated, I was talking to his x - she came over to celebrate her anniversary with her second husband. (She was angry with him, and I was angry with my husband. So we got to talking, ya know - with a little champagne. Great company for a pity party.... ) She had no idea my/her x cheated as many times as he did, she only knew about one - the famous "Linda". Well I let her know about 9........<BR>Rambling now - venting toooooooo....<P>Anyways, I gues just finding ways to live with the lying, trying to make home a place that is safe for the truth, realize that sometimes they don't know how to deal effectively with conflict, and figure it is conflict avoiding....And give the dead horse a break.<P>WS, It is so odvious, when you hear different versions of the same story. My husband is such a negotiator he'll catch himself, then ask me what he told me before - claiming he can't remember..... He is a master..<P>I bet they can't tell the truth from a lie sometimes - and I bet it is a habit, as well. My husband likes to exaggerate sometimes. We'll be with others, and he'll have the same story to tell as we make the rounds. It changes a little each time...<P>Samantha and Cl, I hope you both get on your knees and thank God for your husband's mothers. I wish my husband's mother would've taught him right from wrong, brought him up in a church, or something. You know, my FIL used to tell my husband that it was OKAY to cheat on your wife, and lie to her. Sometimes I wonder if "fixing" the son is secondary to fixing the FIL. But I know it isn't my job to fix anyone here. <P>I just hope you two realize what a hurdle you have overcome - by having men of integrity. The lies they gave you while they were cheating were one thing, but the lies that become a way of life are another.<P>God bless.<BR>

Lor, your situation is a situation foremost in my mind. Your husband is, as FHL puts it, ONE Piece of Work. Ughhh. And we can love them so much despite what they do or say. <P>You sound so much better than you did 2 months ago. Your growth simply amazes me. I don't think I've seen anyone come along and personally grow as fast as you have. You must have it in you, ya know. You really really are a very very special lady. <P>I'm glad you've decided to not ask anymore, because - why set him up for failure? He has enough hurdles to deal with, and I feel very very sorry for him. I really pity your husband, he is so mixed up. I hope he gets himself another job, and soon. His self esteem is probably so low, that he doesn't believe he can get another job. <P>Maybe you need to start looking for the truth - you know, every GOOD lie, (a lie done well) has mostly truth in it. That is the perspective I have started to take. I'm deciding that everything my husband says is something to dissect, and I am trying to separate the truth from the lie. It is getting interesting.<P>God Bless Lor.

hi tnt,<BR>My h is honest now, and it is a blessing. Ahh but, he lied for over 20 yrs about his affairs. I trusted him co completely that he never had to lie much at all. I asked him indirectly a few times-so he weaseled away easily. When the truth came out, it sort of spilled all over, flooding every nook and cranny. He no longer is capable of lying-once he tried, but I knew immediately and told him that his lies hurt and did not protect me. I finally listened to the gut! <BR>As much as we want them to tell the truth, it is never pretty. But lies are not either. I have no idea how to deal with chronic lying and would be very interested in reading more about it. <BR>there are a number of kids I know that have real issues with lying. What starts this behavior and how can it be curtailed?

You know, cl - I was sent to a Christian Day school, and there was a lot of accountability and teachings on values, morals, etc. I have a conscious (sp?) My mother and father used to wash my mouth out with soap for lying.<P>One time when I was about 6, there was a girl that I liked to play with. Another girl liked to play with her too. I didn't mind playing with both of them, but the other girl didn't want me around. She beat me up one day. I felt very very left out, and ashamed. I also hated the fact that she could beat me up and do whatever she wanted.<P>I decided I needed sympathy. So, I bit myself really hard on the arm, and then went home to my mom and cried and told her that the girl bit me. <P>My mother marched me over to the girls house, where she confronted the little girls mother "Your child bit my child...." Well, I wasn't a very good liar - and confessed right there on the little girls porch that I bit myself. <P>My mother washed my mouth out with soap, and paddled my behind. I was too scared to lie!<P>I think my husband's mom thought it was funny. I see my 6 year old telling wild stories, he has an imaginary friend. I am always on guard to let him play and tell his wild stories, and laugh and it is understood that it is a wild story. But I am very very clear that lying is very bad, and unacceptable. I see my MIL not reacting like this, but being amused. I am a grandmother too, so I suppose I can see why she would find it amusing. I have a 6 year old grandson as well.<P>But, the FIL - openly training a son to lie to women and cheat on them takes the cake. I'm sure that was the main motivating factor for my husband. <P>In 1985 he professed Christianity, and said he has never cheated again on his wife. I met him in 89/90 - he divorced her because she wouldn't stop cheating. He odviously knows how painful and bad this is - but maybe he is ashamed (I think he does have a conscious) but too prideful or scared to admit anything. Maybe he thinks what purpose would it serve now to bring it up, after all - he is a conflict avoider.<P>It is such an easy way out - at least on the surface. He is an ENTJ or is it ENTS Guardian Supervisor..... You would think he would hold those values tightly to his lifestyle, right???? <P>I know I can't change him, I can only find ways to cope. But - I guess I'm hoping for some new ideas - on boundaries - or new ways to cope. <P><p>[This message has been edited by trustntruth (edited September 07, 1999).]

So ladies does it come back to the upbringing?<BR>One of the few lies that I remember telling is to a nun that was giving me music lessons. There was one piece that I hated to play. one night she asked if we had played that one. I said yes because I didn't want to play it. I was so devastated that I quit music lessons shortly thereafter.<P>My H on the other hand.......<P>Is there something we can do? Apparently some can change. But How?<BR>

I remember when I was about 10 or 12, and I mentioned to my sister, an adult, that I couldn't do such and such because our parents wouldn't want me to. She told me that I should just lie about it to them, and I haven't had much respect for her since. Yet we were raised by the same parents, and she is the one who is religious, not me.<P>I wonder if it has something to do with the tendency to feel guilt. Some people seem to have too much guilt, and others too little. Earlier this summer my oldest daughter felt horribly guilty because the place where she worked asked her to come in on her day off, and she told them she couldn't come in within an hour and a half because she had plans, but she would come in a few hours later. She felt terrible for not canceling her plans - now that, I think, is carrying guilt a bit too far.<P>My H lied all the time during the affair, but he is actually a very bad liar. Rather than come out and lie directly, he generally says he doesn't remember, and his memory is so bad that sometimes I'm not sure whether he does or not.

TNT, I don't know. I guess that denial is very strong. They often don't feel like they're lying. I caught the OM phoning here in July. My wife said, "Oh he's just calling to see how my Drs. Appt went." (sure) I think the best defense is to believe that, in the end, it is themselves they are hurting most. I know it feels like they're hurting US most right now doesn't it?

JB,<P>That is a good coping mechanism - looking at it from their perspective, huh? <P>Nellie,<P>You may have something there. Maybe we all feel different levels of guilt - and therefore more honest? Does that guilt come from how we were brought up?

I'm back...are you OK? Did I miss something? I was thinking about you and your old piece of work...<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Yippee! Fhl is going to start the next forgiveness chapter? Or was it WS? Volunteers for those of us that are still considered remedial?!?!?! <BR>Tnt, were you raised in a strict christian household? I just am throwing this out for further exploration. My H was raised catholic, and he what I refer to as good ole catholic guilt. Once he was able to realize the truth, he has not been able to deviate again. And he talks to the priest. In some ways it is hard on him and I can see it inhibits his ability to forgive himself. Then again, maybe it is a major part of the driving force in telling the truth?<BR>My goodness, your memory is wonderful! Biting yourself?<BR>WS, I think part of it is upbringing, but also maybe more like the coping-the way we learn to deal with our surroundings? Maybe lots of people need that guilt teaching that we learned as kids? And then I have to wonder if I did a good enough job instilling it in my children!! <BR>Nellie, I have no idea how some people even can sleep at night with all the lies I have heard! Maybe they just feel forgiven? <BR>This is a very confusing subject for me-obviously!!<p>[This message has been edited by cl (edited September 08, 1999).]

What an interesting thread! Since discovering H's first affair, my need for honesty has skyrocketed! I have also learned that he is a habitual liar (not just lies about affairs). His is a combo of lies and half-truths...i.e. not much of what is left is actual truth. Its extremely frustrating for me because he lies about things that don't have to be lied about.<P>In a twisted kind of way, I have learned to not take this so personal as he lies to almost everyone in the same fashion. I wonder if he is missing the gene of "truth"?<P>I suppose liars have various reasons for lieing...in my H's case, I have noticed that all his siblings also lie quite frequently. The only thing I can come up with is that they were raised with an angry alcoholic father and I know for a fact that they were forced to "keep the peace" in order to not set Dad off. Many of his cousins that I am close w/have verified that even they, as children, were required to follow these rules when they visited. One cousin is astounded by how I deal w/FIL because I respect him, however, do not coddle him. His affect is still strong after 30+ years.<P>So upbringing was a major factor in my H's lieing. As children, they had to lie or whatever to keep dad calm. Its almost as if lieing was "approved" under the circumstances. <P>

I'll start bounderies tomorrow.<P>Truth was primary in my upbring at home and at school (Christian). I try to instill it as #1 in my own girls.<P>I have overheard my oldest say to middle "Don't lie, it will just make it worse. Mom will know."<P>Her only known lie was when she was probibly six and put on blush for a party. She said I scared her when I asked if she had make-up on, didn't mean to, so she lied. I wiped it off and had a little talk about honesty. Her punishment was telling her dad she had lied. I briefed him and he handled it very lovingly and very serious. She still talks about what an impression it made.<P>My middle whacked off my flowers when she was probibly three. Saw her with a stick, then saw flowers with stick next to them. Guilty. I sat her down and told her I didn't like my flowers were ruined and she would be in trouble if she did it again, but now if she only told the truth, she wouldn't be in any trouble. Her eyes rolled round and round in her head and she had a hard time 'fessing up. My oldest, who had recently had her ordeal remarked "The Devil sure has a hold of her heart, doesn't he?" It was hard not to laugh.<P>And my H? He assured me he only lied about the affair. Ironically he told me that when he was still in phone contact, so still lying. Now that's something to be comforted with, isn't it? And if you are truthful about lying, what catagory is that?<P>cl...so glad you're back. <P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

TNT, I wrote a long reply to you on my thread. Take a look. On honesty. I was keeping a journal. In May, I recorded a conversation where I was becoming convinced, after direct questions, that my wife had truly stopped contact with the OM. She said, "I promised I wouldn't!" Well, She was lying. Sometimes I don't think trust can ever return.