<P>[This message has been edited by catnip (edited July 24, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by catnip (edited July 24, 2000).]

catnip,<P>I am so sorry everything is so difficult right now.<P>I can relate how you are feeling about yourself. Although I have learned and have grown a great deal, and I am proud of that growth, I am not the truly sincerely nice person I used to be. I don't think anyone else would notice...I don't think I act any differently, but the toughness that need to weather the storm, doesn't disappear even when the storm has been weathered. At least not for me, yet.<P>I read the same post about the colors and just the week before I broke down in a phone coversation with H (very very rare) and sobbed that the colors weren't as pretty anymore. I really meant the ones I saw outside, literally, not even the abstract.<P>Of course he really thought I was off the wall with that one, although he was tactful enough to just answer with one of his long awkward silences.<P>I really hope that you turn a corner soon. Take care of yourself!!!!!

Catnip I don't know what to say. You are such an inspiration to me and I wish I could return the favor.<P>I'm not sure my H every went through withdrawl. He tends to easily distract himself to avoid pain.<P>For me the resentment came before the A. Over the years even the little things made me resent him. I became a person I hated. Very bitter. The night I told him I couldn't go on with this (the night after d-day) he came to bed put his arms around me and we cried and held each other through the night. For some reason I lost all the baggage I had carried around for so many years. I saw the light again. Like Carolyn said once all this baggage poisoned her soul. Mine was poisoned for many many years. Don't allow it to do the same to you.<P>Give it some time. You and your H have obviously come so far. Just keep those lines of communication open. I hear it takes about 1-3 years to fully recover. And like you said when there is OC involved it's just a constant reminder. For the rest of your life. <P>I have faith in you and your H. Hold onto each other. LSM

Thanks FHL...I appreciate your response to my post. I had to delete it after I reread it because my frame of mind was so off the wall when I wrote it. <BR>It's amazing how the 'boogiemen" vanish in the morning with the light of day. I shouldn't post late at night when depressed.<BR>I'm pretty embarrassed by my new shrew behavior. I hate the changes I see in myself and resent that I have become so difficult...I liked me a whole heck of a lot better before. <BR>I'll work on it.. and see if the colors come back. =^^=<BR>

LSM: Your words give me comfort. I know I am expecting the world from my husband when in the past I expected so little and was so grateful for what we did have. I have gone from low-maintenance and sweet (and confident)to high-maintenance and demanding. It isn't a pretty picture.<P>My husband is working as hard as he can to make things right and I seem to want to make him pay in a way. Nothing overt, just subtle little things like remarks and shots that give me the opposite response from what I am looking for. I realize I am trying to get more reassurance from him by saying things like, "Stop pretending you love me; we both know you're here because there's no where else to go" or "I know you're settling for me and that you really want something else." <P>I never ever did things like this before. In fact when he would say he loved me I would tell him I loved him, too or tease him and say, "I know you do, you're so lucky to have me!" and he would laugh and say, "I am! you're the best thing that ever happened to me." And we both believed that. <BR>For twenty years I bent over backwards telling him how wonderful, intelligent and beautiful I thought he was and how special he was and what he meant to me. And he would do the same. <BR>We worked so hard for all those years to make each other happy; I can't believe all this has happened to us or why. <BR>It has certainly shaken my foundation to the core.<P>Ugh. Why am I doing this and setting myself up like this and saying such stupid things? It's like if I say it first, I won't be surprised when he leaves me again. <P>I really am suspicious now and realize I am baiting him. I want him to make these huge declarations of love to me telling me "Oh, Catnip, you're wrong; I absolutely want to be here with you, and no where else." <P>It's me, suffering from post traumatic stress, I think, coupled with the on-going nightmare we are enduring. I also know that my husband does suffer from mental illness and that he is battling his demons and stays away from me or stays busy so he doesn't have to spend too much time with me feeling guilty. What he has to realize that the more time we spend together being like we were before this all happened, makes me feel more secure and happy and a lot less b****y and I am not setting him up all the time. The more time we spend together, the less guilt he will feel. <BR>It's almost as if this whole ordeal has caused us to become dysfunctional squared.<P>It's weird.<P>Catnip =^^= <p>[This message has been edited by catnip (edited July 24, 2000).]

Catnip, don't forget it's a vicious cycle. I know for me if I feel even the slightest bit of uneasiness from my H I too have a tendancy to throw barbs. One barb is all it takes to stop someone in their tracks. Then I feel more reservation from my H and the more barbs I threw. Until I pushed him further and further away and then he armed himself and began throwing them back. It hurts and it's hard not to try to protect yoursef (i know better than anyone). But put away the ammo and reach out to your H. Make him laugh. He'll come out of the bushes in no time. Don't let the poison in. Your H loves you. He needs you now just as much as you need him. Remind him. I have faith in you. LSM

Just a thought....<P>Catnip, is it possible that YOU want out? That you've been working so hard towards this goal, you're not even aware that it may not be what you want?<P>I say this because I have a long history of pushing guys away that it turns out I didn't really want. I'd want to break up with them, but not have the guts, so I'd project what I wanted onto them, i.e. "You want to leave me, don't you?" when ultimately, it turned out that I was the one who wanted to leave.<P>Any possibility this is what's going on?

Dazed:<P>Wow. I read your post and it made my stomach do a somersault.<P>I have to think about this. It's as if you have pulled the truth from some subconscience place within me. I wasn't ready to entertain those possibliities...<P>I think I appreciate your input...<P>My computer is going off for a few hours so I can regroup...back later.<P>Catnip =^^=

Hi, Catnip,<P>I'm afraid I don't have a whole lot to offer in terms of "pearls of wisdom", but want to at least send you my best wishes. You've been through SO much... I'm sorry you two are struggling. Are you seeing a counselor? Sounds like there are still a lot of issues bubbling to the surface.<P>Hang in there, keep trying to walk the high road & doing "the right thing(s)" - I've learned that even if results *seem* absent, none of that effort is wasted - eventually there is payoff for the hard work. Sometimes all in a rush.<P>I'll be thinking about you, & hoping things untangle themselves. Really catnip, given the circumstances, I'm not too surprised that you're still "processing" (favorite word from my counselor ). You've had your whole world rocked. Sometimes, you just have to "be". And let things evolve. Not easy...<P>Keep us (ol' timers) posted, 'kay?<P>------------------<BR>~suse~<BR>Rome wasn't built in a day.<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by catnip:<BR><B>What he has to realize that the more time we spend together being like we were before this all happened, makes me feel more secure and happy and a lot less b****y and I am not setting him up all the time. The more time we spend together, the less guilt he will feel. <BR>It's almost as if this whole ordeal has caused us to become dysfunctional squared.<P>It's weird.<P>Catnip =^^= <P>[This message has been edited by catnip (edited July 24, 2000).]</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Catnip, you hit the nail on the head.<P>It is not dysfunctional, it is really the heart of the Harley recovery program.<P>Every time I started doubting whether it would work, whether I even wanted to be here, Jennifer Harley would tell me, "Stick to the plan". Like a broken record.<P>Vicious cycle?? It can just as easily be a joyful cycle. We are so happy we stuck to it...<P>As YOU said, the more time you spend together having fun, meeting each other's ENs, the happier you both are.<P>That is Harley's program in a nutshell.<P>So, are you spending 15 hrs/wk doing fun things? (You mentioned the nightmare you are enduring, sorry, but I haven't followed too many stories in a long time).<P>Do you need to regroup and discuss ENs that are not being met again??<P>We've signed up for a lifetime of building. It's like eating. Yesterday's meal, even if a feast, will not fill us today.<P><p>[This message has been edited by schizzo (edited July 26, 2000).]

Suse:<P>I cannot tell you how good it is to hear from an oldtimer. There are so few of us left, though I know many still lurk (Hi Lonestar and Starpony) What are you doing now? Where are you in your marriage? How are you? An update please! <P>Back in January when all the court appearances were looming on the horizon, I left the forum for a time to run damage control. I've been back pretty regularly since April. <BR>I think I left at a crucial time in our recovery and we started to loose each other with the enormous issues we faced. One moment we were circling the wagons together in the "us against them" mode and the next moment we would withdraw from each other. The withdrawal was always as a result of alcohol or money lies.<P>This is the toughest thing I have ever done. And the worst part about it is the insanity doesn't stop...whether it is from within the marriage or long term fallout presenting itself to us when things are starting to go good again...<P>God is surely testing me and I do beleive I am reaping some awful karma from another realm/life. However, I am not too sad or too upset or too depressed all the time. In fact, I have incredible moments of joy and satisfaction. The anger is something I will never be rid of to any real degree. It's there and it ain't going anywhere.<P>We are going through a 'faux' divorce to protect me from what spouse did in 1998. Our business is facing crisis and the OW is very aggressive in pursueing her quest for income shares for OC and herself. The courts have arbitrarily pulled an unrealistic figure out of the air and we have appealed it, but it has fallen on deaf ears.<P>In order to protect me from loosing what little we have left that I have worked so hard for twenty years, spouse is relinguishing his shares in the business, turning over the house to me and will absorb all debt in his name, which is all of it.<P>When spouse goes to court to present his case, he will submit his tax returns and our divorce papers and they will be forced to reduce the outrageous amount of money they are mandating so he has something to live on.<P>I suppose I stay here because I get so much comfort from being around so many with so much understanding, compassion and guidance. I believe we have all been brought here by Divine Providence and this is where we will find our souls again. To heal.<P>You're wrong, Suse, you did offer me pearls of wisdom...in fact, I am 'processing' as we speak! I agree. There must be a pony in here somewhere...<P>So glad to hear from you.<P>Catnip =^^=<P>

Catnip, just a bit of wisdom I got from my therapist. She explained that we have been through a trauma. And most people who go through trauma experience personality changes. My friends who don't know what happened to me have talked to me about how different I seem lately. (They should only know.) She also said many people who go through trauma actually wonder if they are losing their minds because they act so different than they were. By telling me this it made my expectations for myself less. I've been trying to heal quicker than she thinks I should. I'm going to try to read more on "trauma" rather than just adultry. Please take care of yourself. I think that is the best we can do right now.

Hi, Catnip,<P>Good to hear back from you! - & thx for the kind words. You got a laugh out of me with the "there has to be a pony here somewhere"! At least your sense of humor is intact! I always loved that saying, hadn't heard it in a long time.<P>I'm glad to hear about those moments of "joy & satisfaction". Yanoo, nothing like a big ol' pile of the pony stuff to put starch in your spirit! ALL the years of tough times Dunc & I endured have given us a real appreciation for all the stuff in life that IS wonderful. And unfortunately, I don't think you get that without some tough times. Gotta have the lows in order to recognize the highs & how great they are. It's a perspective that surely isn't easy in the getting, but wonderful in the "got". Sort of puts things in perspective. So I'm not surprised you're finding some joy even in the midst of a long hard situation. You have a lot to be proud of, Catnip!! I'm totally awed at how you've handled everything.<P>I guess Schizzo echoed (more succinctly ) what I was trying to say before, when she mentioned a Harley saying "stick with the plan". I know, it sucks, it seems like wasted effort sometimes - but it's not. It seems that progress doesn't come in neat even increments, but in bursts. That turned out to be our experience. Everything positive you do lays the groundwork for something in the future. Sometimes it's like creating puzzle pieces - you're working like crazy, but it doesn't "come together" right away.<P>Anyway, I'm rambling... Keep us updated on how things are going, okay?<P><P>------------------<BR>~suse~<BR>Rome wasn't built in a day.<BR>

Suse:<P>What's it like for you and Dunc now? Is it better than before like they say it can be? Are you both focused on each other now and involved with each other? Do you finally feel 'safe' and 'protected'? <P>And how do you feel now? Are the demons gone or do they occasionally rear their ugly heads? Do you beleive you have forgiven each other and are truly moving on? Do you panic when either of you seems to 'shut down' for a moment? Are the lines of communication open? Does anyone in your house still feel so bad about what happened that it's too hard to face the other and so you 'withdraw' for a while to lick wounds?<P>I am searching for answers...looking for a crystal ball...I want to know what to expect so that I can relax and realize it is part of the process...<P>Finally, off the subject...do you keep in touch with any of the old timers like Lone Star and others? How are they doing?<P>I would like to find the old e-mail roster and invite some of the old timers to a reunion of sorts here on the forum to find out what has happened to them over the past year and how they are doing. <P>Those conversations last year were so poignant and intellectually stimulating. There was a dry period here a few months ago but it seems as though a new group of thoughtful people are entering the forum instead of just here to complain. I mean, we all complain, myself included, but I appreciate the meaningful dialogue where we all can learn something. I think we are heading that way again.<P>It's good to have you lurking and posting again. I came back in April after being gone for a few months because I needed to take care of legalities and I was lucky enough to have found someone very knowledgable in the MB principles and in CS law to 'counsel' me for those few difficult months. Being back on the forum is helping me get through some of the resentment I have been harboring, but most of all I find a great deal of comfort.<P>Thanks for your kind words and encouragement, Suse. I am so glad to hear from you. I hope you'll stick around a while and dispense your wisdom and experience for some of the newbies...and accessable to the old-timers, just for fun and comraderie. Hi to Dunc.<P>Catnip =^^=<P>

Hello Dear Catnip,<P>I didn't get the opportunity to read your orignial post. But I read the responses and have an idea what you are feeling.<P>As you know my H has 2 OC from 2 OW. They are 7.5 and 8.5 yo. Both boys.<P>I thought I'd tell you what my H and I went thru aft they were born and the feelings I had running thru me for those 8+ years before this recent A started.<P>I thought I could let go of the resentment I was unfortunetly holding, I wanted so badly for us to be like we were before the OCs or even better. My intentions were to be a good wife and have a wonderful marriage. But I see now years later that I was making him pay, and in turn I was paying too. Paying so dearly.<P>I felt he needed to prove to me he really loved me and I never ever heard the words from him "I'm so sorry, I made a mistake. I always loved only you", if he would have said those words just once without being prompted, I would have softened, but instead I became someone I didn't recognize or like, I was not fun or happy or carefree anymore, I was defensive and guarded. I held the resentment in me and I never REALLY let my H as close to me as I wanted him to be. I didn't give very much of myself, emotionally speaking. I became hard in a way, I dispised myself and what I had become and I blamed him for it.<P>What I've learned and see now is my H was trying to show me he was sorry for his mistakes, he never said the words, but I know he was remorseful. He tried to show me his remorse by allowing me my anger and resentment, but it lingered in me for years, unfortunetly. I wish I would have had whatever it took to let that resentment and anger go ... just kick it outta my life and move on. But it's not that simple. <P>My counselor told me that the worse pain a H can inflict on a W is to father OC. And I think she may be right.<P>Then because my H knew aft he fathered the first OC that OW #2 was trying to get pregnant from him, he ignored that and continued to have unprotected sex w/her which resulted in OC #2. It was just blatant inconsideraton on his part. Knowing this has added to my resentment and at times I use to think he was just plain stupid. Sorry.<P>I never thought God would put me in such a situation. My H having 2 OC and me with none. I mean I never thought I would not have children, I knew I would, it was a given. But here I am "no babies" and now "no family".<P>There are times I feel my resentment has placed me here, I don't feel 100% responsible but I know what my part has been in this mess. I tell myself I'm only human and my situation is abnormal, I tell myself not even Mother Teresa could stick it out without some resentment and anger (well maybe). But the thing is I wish I could have let it go. My life would have been so much different if I could have let it go.<P>Catnip, if you find a way to squash the resentment, please share it with me. I want so badly to be that person I know I was, one that looks at things like a child, sweet and happy. I want to love again, truly love again without hurting for doing it.<P>God Bless you Catnip. God Bless you for coming here and sharing what you're feeling, and God Bless you for trying so hard and being so human and real about what you feel.<P>Jo<p>[This message has been edited by Resilient (edited July 30, 2000).]

Jo:<P>I am taking your advice and face my resentments and try to put them behind me. There is no place in recovery for me to punish my husband under the guise of being in pain and filled with resentment. On some level I may have been doing that...<P>It has been an incredible day of emotional angst. I read what you said about what your counsellor said about the worst pain that a husband can inflict on his wife and I absolutely agree with you. There is nothing worse than an OC. I only wish that all my husband had was an affair...not a baby too. an affair is heartwrenching enough, but this! No comparison, no comparison at all.<P>I will write to you on the other site tomorrow or the next about this and harboring resentment...gotta run.<P>Catnip =^^=