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Well, she did in fact go through with the session with Steve yesterday. I just had a session with him and there's no big news. She was cooperative and not defensive, but Steve only discussed broad concepts of love and its physiology and stayed away from the A and talk of recovery. She's recognized changes I've made, but doesn't understand the concept that love can be found again and doesn't expect it to happen. So the plan is to keep doing what I'm doing in Plan A and avoid conflict. I guess it could have been worse.<P>So, WSs, how prevalent is it to conclude that there's no way to rekindle lost love while you're still at least partly attached to OP? Should be darn near 100%, isn't it? <P>Independently, I determined that there's still a lot of contact with OM, so my suspicions of the A waning are probably inaccurate.<P>WAT<p>[This message has been edited by worthatry (edited December 12, 2000).]

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<p>[ January 09, 2002: Message edited by: OffOnOnOff ]</p>

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OOOOOOOO - sorry about the extra o's. Hey thanks for the boost. I'm gonna hang in. No other alternatives, so why not? The love was gone from her long before the affair, but I guess others have the same situation, so maybe I'm in the ballpark. You hang tough, too.<P>WAT

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Wat,<P>Glad your talked to Steve. Think that was a step for her, even if it was just about you.<P>You have my respect & admiration for the way you have handled the lost of your son & now your W's A. <P>Hope you find some happiness in the holidays.<P>

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WAT,<P>I don't post much but have been following yours (and Rick37) sagas as they are similar to my own.<P>My W moved to her sisters 10 months ago and into her "own place" in July. I speak with Steve H regularly and my W does once in a great while when I ask (and she is in the right mood).<P>She too sees the positive changes but has dificulty "believeing" the concepts that Steve explains i.e. feelings follow actions....BUT she still comes around 1-2 times a week and we talk about every other day, last night she joined me at the annual Xmas dinner for a local charity that she knows is important to me and we saw a lot of friends and had a great time...<BR>Plan A, Plan A, Plan A. <P>I see occasional positive signs but don't read too much into them and just continue to work on being a better ME.<P>So, don't get to discouraged that she doesn't see or believe the concepts that Steve discusses with your W, just be glad that she is willing to talk with Steve, if anyone can help I believe it is Steve, I know that I would have NEVER made it this far without his "coaching"....Most likely it took a long time for your marriage to end up in this situation and will take some doing to rebuild.<P>Let me know if I can share anything else, good luck.<P>Jack

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WAT,<P>I had a fairly long post almost done, and my machine crashed, so I'm starting over and I'll make it shorter (probably a stroke of luck for you [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]).<P>I think that the outcome of the call was essentially according to plan, and just based on the fact that she was not defensive, I'd say it went well. We know that Steve wouldn't launch into a speech about As starting, love coming back, reconciling, etc., otherwise, there wouldn't be a call #2. I'm sure he knows how to approach these calls. So, I hope that you aren't let down too much over the results. We also know that it simply wouldn't take a call to convince our WS that they should suddenly want to try again. So all in all, I'd say it is a positive thing. The fact that she agreed to call is a good sign....no way mine would do that at this point.<P>Regarding the OM on the scene to some degree, I know I've thought numerous times that something was rotten in the state of Denmark, but things always turn out to be quite fresh. However, maybe sometimes there are rough times for them, who knows. As SAA says, they may pull away a bit, but one taste of the addiction and the clock is reset to 0.<P>The other thing I wanted to say was that there is an element of crisis in my wife's situation as well, and I think that this is common. At least that is the impression I get from MB. In my wife's case, I don't think she ever dealt with her fathers death...cried once that I know of, wanted to be strong, practical, realistic. Within months of that, we had our wedding. The most important part is that she blames herself for his death, even though that is preposterous. Long story there, but a few years before he died, she had arranged a meeting that ended up with him in his own business, and he worked alot, stressed, and she thinks this was essentially the cause. However, doctors said what he had was likely from birth. I feel kind of bad telling anyone these things, because it is private for her, but I can delete it. Anyway, a couple of months before she announced her separation request, she was out one night with a co-worker after work, and he looks like her Dad. She came home and told me that she had talked to this guy, and cried. They used to talk alot, and I now think I'd qualify that friendship as an EA. She didn't want to talk to me about this stuff, from what I could tell. At the time, I just trusted her, so I let it slide. I think that entire phase set her wheels in motion. Anyway, this has nothing to do with your post, so sorry about that. But I guess my point was that I don't think your scenario is totally different from the usual case. I think there are various factors that contribute to an A, and these crisis things are one of them. I hope I make sense. Sometimes in my case, I wonder if this is one EA and now one EA/PA, and thus making us reconciling look less probable, but I don't really think so. Time will tell.<P>OK, now I've made this as long as the first one. Sorry to barge in and get on a tangent from your post. Hang in there and keep up what you are doing. I like what you said in another post yesterday, that you wouldn't abandon her. That is a good way to look at it. You can think of her as being ill...I know I do sometimes. You've been through alot, and are handling it well. The humour you use in your posts makes me laugh sometimes, despite these ridiculous situations our lives have become. You'll probably see a post from me tonight, if I get to it. Nothing earth shattering, but my WS is continuing to emit mixed signals. What else is new.<p>[This message has been edited by Rick37 (edited December 12, 2000).]

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WAT,<P>I'd say the seed has been planted. She actually talked to him and she listened.<BR>I think in my case, my H and OW were approaching the end of the line when he started to notice changes around home. Keep it up. <P>cleo

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Thanks all for your words of encouragement. I'm trying not to place too much positive on this. Just a small step.<P>sing, I don't know your story very well. I want to catch up and read some of your older posts.<P>Downbound Train - don't be a stranger. Tell us your situation. And change your name! Too depressing! How 'bout "On the train tracks to love, oo, oo, baby"?<P>Rick and Cleo - keep it up for me. You're two of the best cheerleaders here. I think it'll be a long road for us and I don't think Plan B is an option for me. The biggest issue for her is how my son and I do together. I admit to being harder on my healthy son while we were caring for our younger son. This was a big issue for her. She was very pleased with how I learned all the medical stuff I needed to know and how I took control on my watch. But she was very critical that I didn't treat our healthy son with the same compassion. Well, I didn't. So now I've realized that and he and I are closer than ever and she notices, so she has to continue to see us together, so Plan B is not an option. Never can be.<P>Thanks, again,<BR>WAT

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It's very hard when you are struggling with something as great as your own child's life to balance anything else. Your wife must know that your intentions were good. I have a family member right now going through something similar. I can see how it happens with other children not getting as much attention or the relationship changing somewhat. <BR>I am so glad that you and your son are getting closer. Little boys just love their Dads!<BR>On a lighter note, did you say in one of your pasts that you are an EE?

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cleo - no, you might be remembering Rick and I saying we were both engineers. I'm a civil/mechanical in the nuclear power field.<P>WAT

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WAT -<P>Sorry, I was out of the office yesterday. I just wanted to thank you for the update. I get so caught up in everybody's lives - I'm just a cyber busy-body.<P>From my perspective. . . I think it is a HUGE step that your W even talked to Steve. You've probably read on this site a hundred times how some people won't even do that much. Even though your wife thinks that it has been over for a long time, I'll just keep praying that she continues to talk to Steve. But, that's a huge thing. I have always wanted to go to counseling - or at least talk to a "professional," but never had the guts. My H and I are sifting through this the best we can, but I know there are times when counseling would help - even if it were just for me - not the marriage.<P>So, I think it's good that she had the talk and that she wasn't defensive. I think she really needs to get things at least half-way sorted out with herself first. . .Then she can look to you and Steve for guidance on marriage building. A good idea for you? Remember the OM started out just as "a friedn" right? So, why can't you do the same thing? I know you want to maintain a little bit of distance - so as not to appear like you're pushing her, but approach her as a friend would. . .I think I'd have to ask her how things went, but that's your call. I'm just extra-nosey, I guees [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]!

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SKM - thanks for the encouragement. I am surprised she did it, but it may have been guilt driven because I asked her and promised it wouldn't be about reconciling. She has admitted feeling guilty towards me from early on - not about the affair which she still denies (or at least doesn't understand that an EA counts) - but about treating me with indifference for so many years. This is why she was quite generous in the separation papers (which she still hasn't signed). On the other hand, she's always been one to not burn bridges.<P>Nevertheless, Steve says she's read HN/HN and understands intellectually that love can be rekindled, but emotionally, she just doesn't expect it to happen with us, because once it's gone, it's gone. I guess that's par for the course. But, a baby step.<P>Her relationship with OM may have settled out as a close friendship, I'm not sure, but I'm trying to do exactly as you suggest - be her friend.<P>I've avoided asking her about her session and Steve confirmed that I should let her bring it up. There is nothing schedlued again for them, but she agreed that Steve could touch base with her again sometime in the future.<P>Looks like a long road, but I've got experience on similar long roads and I survived. The key for me will be trying to get quality time around her and our son simultaneously - so I can display the permanent changes I've made with him.<P>Thanks again,<P>WAT

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WAT,<P>I have some thoughts on this subject, so let me give this a shot. I hope it doesn't come out wrong.<P>First, I agree that it's wonderful that your W agreed to talk to Steve. Everyone already said that to you, and I agree.<P>Now, I also want to add my observations based on my experience. My W (WS) also started talking to Steve after d-day. What I found very encouraging is that she liked talking to him quite a bit. In fact, she said that talking to him made her feel better.<P>However, after two months of weekly sessions, I realized that what she was doing was debating him on the issue of whether or not love can be restored. She enjoyed the verbal sparring, and I could see that this was slowly becoming a battle of wills. My W is not one to ever give in, so I knew that this was going to go nowhere fast.<P>Eventually, she decided to stop counseling, and guess what? That's when things started improving for us. I think without the "pressure" of someone looking into our marriage daily, without the pressure of having to admit any progress, she was feeling freer to be herself. Shoot, within a week of stopping counseling we started being intimate again, even though during counseling she kept telling Steve that the thought of being intimate with me made her sick to her stomach...<P>Anyway, I repeat that I think it's great that she is talking to Steve. All I want to caution you on is a) don't get too optimistic (I think you're doing well there) and b) keep an eye on what's going on to see if it's actually helping. I think certain personalities (e.g. my W) do not respond well to being coached, which is Steve's approach.<P>Hope this helped.<P>AGG

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AGG - thanks a bunch for sharing your experience - I will certainly keep it in mind. My wife's stubborness is her biggest liability and a sparring contest could well develop. At the moment, there's no schedule for further sessions between her and Steve, so the threat doesn't currently exist, but if we progress, I'll be sure to ask Steve during my conversations with him if it's happening. But, already she's disagreed that love can be rebuilt between us, but agreed it was theoretically possible.<P>WAT


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