I know that everyone here would support my telling my wife about my A, so that recovery might have a chance. I plan to do that this Friday night (1-12). If anyone would like to share tips or pointers from your own experience, I would welcome them.<P>The basics I plan to keep in mind are choosing a comfortable setting in the home, being gentle, displaying sincerity, not dwelling on morbid details, trying to answer what questions I can, being there for as long as it takes, offering to take the lead in securing a counselor, inviting her to choose a friend to talk with if she wishes, and talking over how we will handle some practical things, plus invite her to respond later--after she's had time to think things over-- if she wishes with what she feels, as opposed to expecting a response just then. I do not plan to be defensive about the A or make any inferrence that she is partially to blame (she isn't, of course). FYI, there are no children living at home.<P>Ivory

Ivory,<P>I don't envy you the task you have before you. But it sounds like you have a pretty good grasp of it. Also, while I admire your taking responsibility for your actions (and I do believe that you and you alone are responsible for your actions), it would be counterproductive to not point out that it's highly likely that your wife isn't meeting your emotional needs and has contributed to the environment that has allowed you to enter into an affair. Don't get me wrong, I think that for now, you need to take full responsibility. But in the long run, you and she are going to have to discover and fix the things that led you down this horrible path.<P>Also, be prepared for the worst possible reaction. Your actions will hurt her deeply, and your honesty now, may not mean a thing. At least not until she's had some time to recover from the initial shock and deep hurt. But for God's sake, <B>DO NOT</B> let that deter you. You owe it to her and your marriage to get this out into the open. It's the ONLY way.<P>Good luck, and my prayers are with you and your family.<BR><P>------------------<BR>Bill<BR>~~~~<BR>Remember the truth that once was spoken, "To love another person is to see the face of God."

Ivory:<P>That's an okay game plan, though I have some suggestions. To be honest, you just can't be sure how it's going to go with your W, how'll she react. You should be prepared for hurt, anger, bitterness, LBing, all the rest. She may immediately insist on a divorce. You should also be prepared for acceptance, calmness, love, etc. She may hug you and cry. Either could happen.<P>Your "list" is curiously detached, like you were preparing for a meeting with the CEO. Perhaps it's just that your emotional life doesn't translate into your writing, but it struck me as oddly remote. I assume that you've thought this all through, that you really WANT to make a go at a life with your W? If you're just doing something because you think it's the "right thing," or out of some sense of duty, she'll sense that right away.<P>I think my primary comment on your list is that you should do whatever SHE asks you to do. You say that you're "not going to dwell on morbid details," and will "answer what questions [you] can." I think that most BSs on the board would say that you should answer EVERY question she has, in as complete detail as she wants it. If she wants morbid details, give them to her.<P>Further, I can't think of any questions that you "shouldn't" be able to answer. If there are some (like "why did you do this"? "what were you thinking"?) you should start working through your feelings about them so that you DO have good answers for her. It's not going to help her to hear "Uh, I dunno" when she asks why you had the affair, or to hear vague stuff about ENs that you may not even know you had not being met. Again, Ivory, and maybe it's just your style of writing, what I've gotten most from you is an emotional blankness, as though you really didn't know why the affair started, or what was wrong with your marriage that might have prompted it. You need to figure that stuff out, if you haven't.<P>You should tell her that you love her, don't want a divorce, and will do anything to work on your marriage (if that's the truth). You should tell her that you'll never see or talk to the OW again (if that's the truth). You should tell her, above all, that you're very sorry for the pain you're causing her, and that you'll spend the rest of your life trying to make up for it (if that's the truth).<P>Good luck, Ivory. I know it's not easy. But it may be some comfort to know that you have the easier part in the conversation. You'll feel better afterwards, she'll feel dramatically worse. Take care.

Ivory,<P>One more thing. Get your butt to the library or bookstore and pick up "Surviving an Affair" by Willard Harley. You and she should read that book.<P>------------------<BR>Bill<BR>~~~~<BR>Remember the truth that once was spoken, "To love another person is to see the face of God."

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ivory:<BR><B>The basics I plan to keep in mind are choosing a comfortable setting in the home, being gentle, displaying sincerity, not dwelling on morbid details,</B><P>Well, if she wants to dwell on morbid details, you may have to.<P>I agree that you sound a little mechanical here. If I could give you some advice for the conversation, I think I would tell you to cry.<P>I also think, in reading back over your story, that I am a little concerned about the motives here. On the face of it, you are telling your W this so that your lover, who you have been talking to daily and have tried unsuccessfully before to break it off with, doesn't have to move 3 hours away. <P>Are you really sure this affair is over?<P>I think it would be better to tell your W after the relationship was really over, so you could tell her honestly that you were going forward. And I think your lover should move out of town with her husband, and give both of you the best chance to get on with your lives. Maybe your lover can't save her marriage, but she can do yours a lot less damage from a far.<P><p>[This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited January 10, 2001).]

I agree. And remove all guns from your household. My sister-in-law shot herself in the heart within 5 minutes of confession. That is how serious this is. MAJOR PAIN. My H tried to blame me. It does not work!!<P> My prayers are also with you and your wife.<BR> God Bless<P>------------------<BR>Deb

I agree with MikeC2 and Taxman it sounds like you are writing a grocery list.<P>From your most recent post you are still in contact w/OW so affair is not over. How about waiting till there is no contact before telling her? It would seem just a bit more sincere.

I think you've got your bases covered. I asked once, what they did and where they met. He asked me "do you really want to know details like that?" I thought about it for a few seconds and opted out. I couldn't handle any more images than were spinning in my head. She may ask those questions. I would give her the opportunity to not hear the answers to the gory details. I mean you want to know everything and at the same time you don't. Sometimes there is just too much information. <BR>I am sure that others will disagree. I just didn't need to hear where they did it, how often and what were the positions. It would have been too much for me to get past.

Taxman,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>You should be prepared for hurt, anger, bitterness, LBing, all the rest. She may immediately insist on a divorce. You should also be prepared for acceptance, calmness, love, etc. She may hug you and cry. Either could happen.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>"Be prepared for..." certainly. But, knowing my wife to whatever degree I know her, the more likely reaction is tears, sadness but no insistance upon divorce and no angry outbursts. Through these days of moodiness and depression, when she has received almost no emotional support from me, she has remained cheerful and upbeat by choice and has continued to love me as a decision. I do not fail to understand the depths to which this will hurt her, but I don't expect an extreme outburst.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Your "list" is curiously detached, like you were preparing for a meeting with the CEO. Perhaps it's just that your emotional life doesn't translate into your writing, but it struck me as oddly remote.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>The latter statement is somewhat the case. I am entering into this sincerely, 'though honestly about where things are at the moment. Yes, I sincerely am sorry for what I have done and the pain and damage it will cause. My emotions are turned around, of course, in that they have been involved with OP not W. By faith, if not yet by heart, am I entering into this that with the help of outside counsel and efforts on our part the marriage might be recoverable. <P>Think about it: one's heart (emotions) are with OP during and immediately after an affair. Does one wait until that is different before telling W? Not from what I've read here. But then that means that one deals with W <I>while</I> one still is dealing with split emotions. So maybe that's where the detachment you sense comes from. All I know to do is be as sincere and gentle and loving as I can and say, "This is what happened...this is where I am right now (both bad and good)...my head and heart may be screwed up, probably are...here is where I hope I and we can go from here."<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I think that most BSs on the board would say that you should answer EVERY question she has, in as complete detail as she wants it. If she wants morbid details, give them to her.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>No! That is NOT what I pick up from this board, in fact. Also I have read elsewhere on the web on simialr sites--secular as well as Christian--and have read the opposite of what you are saying. The ongoing problem is not the affair--as this and other sites say-- it is the marriage. The affair is a tragic symptom of the ongoing problem. Dwelling on morbid details distracts from the real issue. If a counselor tells me I need to answer <I>every</I> detailed question (what, when, where, how often, and so on) I will. <P>Ivory<p>[This message has been edited by Ivory (edited January 10, 2001).]

Ivory, you are doing the right thing. As a BS, I don't have a lot of advice for you except for a couple of things.<P>Tell the truth---do not try to stretch the truth on anything. <P>Answer any questions she may have---she may ask for details, and if she does, give them to her. It is difficult and it will hurt, but it needs to be done, if she asks for them.<P>As it was mentioned in by a few others, be prepared for any type of reaction. She will most likely be shocked and people react differently to news such as this. <P>You and your wife will be in my prayers!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ivory: <re:honesty><BR><B> No! That is NOT what I pick up from this board, in fact. Also I have read elsewhere on the web on simialr sites--secular as well as Christian--and have read the opposite of what you are saying. The ongoing problem is not the affair--as this and other sites say-- it is the marriage. The affair is a tragic symptom of the ongoing problem. Dwelling on morbid details distracts from the real issue. If a counselor tells me I need to answer <I>every</I> detailed question (what, when, where, how often, and so on) I will.</B><P>I don't know how you can be ready for this conversation and not even have a nodding acquaintance with Harley's Rule of Honesty. I can give you 5 citations from his writings on this site saying that you need to answer every question she asks with complete honesty.<P>You did not address my questions about your motives here. Are you going to tell your W that there will be NO contact from here on in, and stick to it? Or are you just taking this step to keep your lover from moving away?<P>

Mike,<P>What would you like for me to do---postpone it? Bomb away at my motives if you wish. They are <I>not</I> so that OP will not move away. They are <I>not</I> for some benefit to me. Yes I will tell her there will be no contact. Yes I will stick to it. What else can I tell you?<P>As for honesty, sorry...I still don't agree that getting into great detail about lover trysts on the same night as the confession is productive. I'll re-read on the Harley Q&A and Articles pages, for your sake. I did say that I would do it if our counselor suggested it. Presumably by that time all heads will be a little cooler, a little clearer, and perhaps it won't even be an issue. <P>The tone of your last paragraph was just a bit much.<P>Ivory<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Ivory (edited January 10, 2001).]

Ivory, I would think that you would want to take advice from those of us that have been through this.<P>The day I found out about my H's A, I asked questions for probably 10 hours. It is in my personality to want to know details of everything. It was not counterproductive, but rather gave me a good idea of what was going on up front. Your W may not want to know details, but I did, and wouldn't have let it rest if he wouldn't have told me what he did.<P>It is imperative that you be 100% honest with her if you hope to ever gain back her trust. And let me tell you---I can tell in a heartbeat when my H is telling me the truth and when he isn't and the continued lies have nearly shattered every ounce of trust that I ever had for him.<P>If you are still talking to the OW, then the affair is not over. There is still an emotional attachment and that will be very painful for your W. If you intend to break it off with the OW, then you need to do a no contact letter and STICK TO IT! <P>I'm sorry if I sound a little harsh, but my H has supposedly been trying to break off his A since September and the contact continues. It has gotten to the point that I'm not sure if I want our marriage to recover or not due to the extreme amount of damage that has been done since discovery.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ivory:<BR><B>As for honesty, sorry...I still don't agree that getting into great detail about lover trysts on the same night as the confession is productive. I'll re-read on the Harley Q&A and Articles pages, for your sake. I did say that I would do it if our counselor suggested it. Presumably by that time all heads will be a little cooler, a little clearer, and perhaps it won't even be an issue. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Mike certainly doesn't need me to defend him, but I'll definitely cast my vote for complete honesty. If you go into this planning to hide the facts, Ivory, you'll be crippling your recovery before it begins.<P><I>After the Affair</I> by Janice Springs has a great section about this very topic. I'd highly recommend you find it, read it, and understand that you'd better answer every question put to you honestly and completely. <P>You say dwelling on the details is bad? You may be right on that point, but you have no right whatsoever to tell your betrayed wife what is and is not important for her to know.<P>

Hi Ivory,<P>I will be praying for you and your wife. I strongly suggest buying the book "After the Affair". It was a great help for me and my H.<P>PJ

I've looked through this site using search terms about honesty and details and find no correlation of those points directly related to details of the sexual encounters, which are the kinds of details I am talking about. Almost all other details can and will be answered forthrightly. If she insists on the others, I don't think it helps the goals for the evening, but I'll do my best to answer them.<P>I believe that I have proposed a reasonable alternative for confessing sexual details, if they are to be confessed, which is to do so if a counselor suggests that I should. <P>The inference that I am unwilling to listen to the advice of those on this forum makes no sense. I found the site and came here ON my own. Some people throw bombs because I am a WS, posting while also having an affair, and others have been more reasonable. To be sure, a certain amount of bombing not only is expected but perhaps helps test the writer's intentions.<P> I am acting somewhat without the heart to do it, but that's just the way it is for me right now. Thank goodness we humans also have a WILL, and when the heart doesn't cooperate the will sometimes can be geared up to intervene. Maybe I need saving from myself...who knows.. it is that possibility that has me acting despite possibly not having the internal something-or-other that some of you seem to be looking for. <P>I have two choices: NOT reveal the affair at this time, trying to wait until---what? a crushingly broken heart?---or to step out ONE bloomin' step at a time and hope to goodness that when I get past the first few steps that I can SEE, then from the perch of the last step I will see more steps and, encouraged by the steps successfully taken to that point, will embark upon the new ones with a little more confidence, a little more resolve, perhaps more of that brokeness that would be helpful.<P>Otherwise, folks, it's wreck this marriage and go off with OP, or try and continue the affair AND the marriage.<P>Ivory

Ivory,<P>The <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3800_honesty.html" TARGET=_blank>Rule of Complete Honesty</A>. My guidance would be to confess everything your wife wants to know about, but probably with professional help. You might even want to have a session with Steve or Jenn Harley scheduled for after this confession, if your wife would want it (I might delay this until you could discuss it with them on the timing, etc.).<P>I would agree with you that you want to do this immediately---even if you're not over withdrawl. Your spouse can help you through withdrawl, as well as provide you with a person to be accountable to as you try to maintain the no contact rule.<P>

The Rule of Complete Honesty does not seem to infer revealing the details of the sexual encounters, just the <I>fact</I> of them, and the broader details about them. I do believe that the Harleys should address this question very specifically, because in what I can find in their writings it is not truly clear. Remember: the concept of honesty is not being debated by me. I am speaking specifically (narrowly) about going into the purely sexual details.<P>Let's say you (the couple) are sitting there trying to go through this terribly hurtful and emotional experience, and your wife says, "What about her breasts? How do they compare to mine?" Or, "Did you enjoy making love to her more than me?" Or, "Did you and she have oral sex?" And so on! Utter and complete honesty? This is good?<P>ivory

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ivory:<BR><B>Mike, What would you like for me to do---postpone it?</B><P>I'm not the one to make that call for you. If I were you, I would be counseling with Steve Harley prior to revealing your affair to your wife. As far as timing, I would make sure I was ready, and committed to total honesty. To many of the betrayed spouses on this site, the lies hurt worse than the infidelity. Any sign of being evasive in your answers will undermine the foundation and new beginning that this session should set for your future relationship. And, it seems to be the case, the betrayed spouse will probably fill in any gaps with their own imaginings that are far worse than reality.<P>I apologize if you take umbrage at my question about your motives. But when I read back over your story, I interpreted this as you making this decision not as a new beginning with your wife, but as a tradeoff that would allow your lover to remain alone in town rather than follow her husband to a new town 3 hours drive away. She had agreed to move with him, in return for him not informing your wife. <P>Here's what you wrote a week ago:<P>"""So in essence she has traded her life for mine. Say what you wish, but that is a great expression of love in my book. I don't feel that I can let her do this. I could go on with my life while she basically would merely exist (she has had ulcers from this marriage in previous times). And surely her husband would eventually admit to himself that he didn't have a wife--he had a hostage. His previous promises likely would seem pretty hollow at that point. And if she couldn't take it any longer, and left, in his anger he might do anyway that which he has promised her he wouldn't do.<P>I believe that I cann "disarm" this man by first being honest with my wife (one of Hartley's steps anyway) and trying to rebuild the marriage, plus also ending my affiliation with the church, leaving him with no cards to play. She then could proceed along whatever course she wished for her life. In that I am still emotionally attached to her, this is a final act of love I can show her, to free her from the bondage he proposes."""<P>Well, that is all very chivalrous, but what it bottom lines out to is that by telling your wife about the affair, your lover, for whom you clearly still hold a torch, separates from her husband and stays in your hometown. <P>By the way, I'm sure her police detective husband will not appreciate this turn of events, with his wife leaving him and staying in your town. He probably will contact your church and your wife, and look for other ways to harm you. I would not be assured that by separating from your church and informing your wife, you have somehow stymied him....or, as you put it "disarmed" him. In fact, you may move him to more drastic action. I would be careful.<P>The people that helped me here in Marriagebuilders did so by hitting me right between the eyes. I apologize if I seem brusque. I hope you can actually end this affair and rebuild your marriage. But I think you need to commit to honesty, with your wife and yourself.<P>Mike<BR>

Ivory:<P>You're doing a good thing by coming clean to your wife, let me just state that at the outset. It's not easy to do, it's embarrassing, and your life is going to be a lot different from here on. All of us, especially the WSs like myself, appreciate that.<P>You seem surprisingly resistant to the idea that you'd have to be honest about the sexual aspects of your relationship, and I wonder why that is. I agree with the others here that the basic principle of this board is COMPLETE honesty, in every detail IF NECESSARY. Read some of Peppermint's old posts if you want to learn how important that can be to someone, and how painful it can be if the questions aren't answered forthrightly.<P>Note that this DOESN'T mean that you have to "dwell" on the sexual aspects, or volunteer to go over in excruciating detail every encounter ("On March 8, I put my ________ into OW's __________ a sum total of five times . . ."). You should START by volunteering whatever information you feel is appropriate. <P>But I think you're fooling yourself if you think that your W isn't going to have ANY questions about the extent of things. She's likely going to want to know whether you had sex with the OW, and if so, for how long that had been going on. She might want to know where. Those are reasonable things to want to know, as I think you'd agree if you were on the other side of things.<P>It's not "dwelling" on the details to GIVE the details IF YOU'RE ASKED. It's not fair to suggest or imply that simply because YOU know all the details, for HER to want to know them is "dwelling" or not focusing on the "real issue." One of the "real issues" here is that you had sex with someone else, yes? If you're still talking about every detail of an intimate encounter six months from now, that might be another issue, but for the first disclosure, you've gotta give her the goods if she wants them.<P>You may be tempted to jump right away into what you think is wrong with the marriage -- what needs of YOURS aren't being met that led you to do what you did. Let me suggest that a more contrite, and penitent, approach, is both called for and a good idea. You're in the wrong. You need to acknowledge that, take responsibility for it, and do whatever your W needs you to do to make up for it. If that means telling her the gory details, you just have to do it.<P>I worry that you're so eager to keep the details to yourself not because you really think it's not the best way to recover, but because the affair is still going on, and you think those aspects are "special," or between you and the OW, and that your W has no "right" to know them. She does have that right, and if she wants you to, answer her. By doing so, you'll take away the power those moments have over you and will start to build trust with your W.<P>Saying that you'll only talk unless ordered to by a counselor is just silly. You've let enough other people between you and your W, don't you think? Try to just talk to her, and meet HER needs, for honesty if need be, and see where that gets you.<P>Good luck. Seriously. My stomach churns just thinking back to the moment when I told my W.<P>