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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ivory:<BR><B>As to your question, what I would say if she asked, "Why are you telling me now." Actually, I might say that everybody on MB told me I needed to! But in complete honesty I'd also have to say that it's not right that OP's H knows and she doesn't know.The only fair thing for everyone is that the issue be rvealed and ealt with, however that might mean.</B><P>Well, nothing personal, but I think that answer is less than forthright, and, worse than that, it sets you up to be immediately busted in a lie.<P>Your posts last week clearly indicate that you are doing this as a result of an ultimatum from the OW's H. There is a decent chance that at some point in the next few weeks, the OW's H and your W will speak and compare notes. When he tells your W that he issued an ultimatum, her whole concept of you being "fair" and honest and looking for a fresh start with the confession will go poof, along with any trust you may be tentatively rebuilding.<P>Just trying to help. <P>"White lies always introduce others of darker complexion" -- William Paley <BR><p>[This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited January 11, 2001).]

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I reviewed that message. It was written a few days after H found out. The circumstances changed not too much longer. OP's H calmed down a day or so later and basically is confining his involvement to his and his wife's relationship. As of my final conversation with OP, he had not asked about whether I had or hadn't, was or wasn't. However, OP knows about Friday night and is going to tell H (I'm sure he has wondered). In any event, what might have been a less-than-stellar reason for inaugerating the confession nevertheless got the job done, so I don't have a problem with talking about that if it comes up.<P>It seems to me that there's not much liklihood my wife would understand my waiting any longer no matter what the motivation.<P>Ivory

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Ivory<P>I am not sure why everyone is on you so hard. You are not thick headed, I feel you got the point some time ago! Even if you are only telling your wife so she will take some of the responsibility from you of making the choice to work on your marriage, you should not delay. Go ahead as planned. She should know at the earliest opportunity, not the latest.<P>I am not sure of Mike's agenda here. He seems to be the hardest on you. I realize it is for your own good, but it is almost as if he is willing you NOT to do it. For what purpose I cannot fathom. What's up Mike??But try a new thread, this one is too long to start a new one on. <P>But for what ever reason, Ivory, even if you are hoping your wife will dump you so you can guiltlessly persue the OW, that is up to you. But it IS necessary for your wife to know--NOW. I choose to believe you really DO want to give your marriage a real try for recovery, even though it is only duty promoting it. I ask no more of my WS. I make no guarentees either, but a no-contact(ow),real, focused try is all one should ask at the beginning. My beginning is 6 months old now...I pray for that.

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Ivory,<P>I am not trying to get you to stop feeling for the OP - I am simply trying to explain how she is manipulating the situation FOR you and not cutting you any slack. Your W will no doubt make the OW into the villian, and will feel terribly insulted and angered that another woman has come into her marriage. She will perceive that the OW has hurt her, even if that isn't the case; how will you deal with this possible response?<P>If your W does kick you out, will you got to the OW? If you would, then maybe it's best that you not tell, continue with the OW and let the EMR die a slow, painful death - as will happen (read Harley's book, "Surviving an Affair").<P>I have to be honest with you, Ivory ... I'm wondering who this confession is for - your W? Or did the OW railroad you into it?<P>I see very clearly that the OW is manipulating your life, and had to point that out to you, lest you didn't see it. OW's not going to admit to it, is she?<P>belld

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by burnedspouse:<BR><B>I am not sure of Mike's agenda here. He seems to be the hardest on you. I realize it is for your own good, but it is almost as if he is willing you NOT to do it. For what purpose I cannot fathom. What's up Mike??</B><P>I think Belldandy's post on page 4 summed up my take on this.<P>I hope I 'm wrong, and that Ivory is sincerely and 100 percent motivated in this disclosure exercise by the hopes of saving his marriage, rather than cutting some strings that keep him from the OW. He says so, but also admits totally that he is still in the fog and emotionally attached to his OW. <P>Nevertheless, I have tried to make my comments constructive. <P><B>But for what ever reason, Ivory, even if you are hoping your wife will dump you so you can guiltlessly persue the OW, that is up to you. But it IS necessary for your wife to know--NOW.</B><P>I'm not 100 percent sure I agree with that (the second sentence). I think the way you reveal an affair and your commitment to honesty and rebuilding is more important than whether it is done on Thursday or Saturday. If I were Ivory and wanted to save my marriage, I would be revealing this through a counseling program with the Harleys and my W, and probably letting a little time go by between the end of the affair so I could present it as a fait accompli. Better that a WS gather there love and their commitment and pour their heart out openly, I think.<P>As to your first sentence, funny you should say that.

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To BurnedSpouse,<P>Thanks. That was a breath of cool air. As to how I'm treated, well, I try (don't always succeed) to presume that most people are writing out of personal experience and/or personal grief, pain or all of that. I do sometimes think that some people have a one-size-fits-all agenda, which logically just can't be. Yes, there are common truths that always apply (disclosure, honesty). There are few common circumstances, though.<P>Belldandy, <P>I want to be kind, but have you considered writing soap operas? I did not respond to the OP part of your previous message and find it hard to this latest one, because *NOBODY* around here wants to hear a WS defend an OP, even if OP previously had been Sister Teresa. Nevertheless, I would know OP better than you and she does not fit your description. OPs can be otherwise-normal people who get their life screwed up just as much as the WS does. That one huge fault does not a conniver make. Remember: she's also a WS and I'm also a OP. Do I have a devious plan? Other than the affair they are not bad human beings and not wasting time on amateuristic devious plots that have a far greater chance of failing than succeeding. <B>BUT...</B> it's an absolutely unwinnable argument by either of us, so could be let that particular thing drop?<P>Ivory

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Hi again,<P>Hey people, whatever Ivory's motivation and whatever his feelings about the OP are, he is doing the right thing by telling his wife. She deserves to know NOW, and then let the decision be hers as to what she wants to ask, what she wants to do, etc.<P>I'll admit, I primarily empathize with her. I KNOW what she is in for, and there are no words to describe it, no predicting what she will do or how she will feel. Is there REALLY any preparing for this?<P>Ivory just needs to be honest, and be ready to be there for his wife in every way possible. Hey, at least he is trying. I think it bothers some of us that he sounds so unemotional and detached, but that is just how some people are. Let's move past that to offer some real help and support for he and his wife. Yes, he is still in the fog AND HE KNOWS IT.<P>Ivory, just a suggestion from personal experience. One thing that my husband did that I appreciated was to go to a doctor and be tested for STDs. He set up the appointements for both of us, but he went a week earlier and explained the situation to the doctor so that I did not have to. He had his tests done first and got his results to help put my mind at ease before I had mine done. I can promise you that concern about disease WILL be an issue with your wife, though it might take a few days to hit her.<P>Also, if you are sincere, apologize profusely for hurting her, but promise only those things you will really do. If you intend to sever contact with the OP completely, tell your wife that. If you don't plan to end contact, be honest about that too. Heartfelt remorse is the best thing for a broken heart, in my opinion.<P>Also Ivory, please believe that we all know that Betrayers are not all bad people. As a matter of fact, I am married to one. And I still love him with all my heart. Your words sound a lot like his did in the beginning of "discovery hell". He is MUCH better now!<P>Prayers for you and your wife,<P>Peppermint

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I agree with peppermint. You are certainly doing the right thing, and that's all that matters.<P>I am one of the people who just hates to over-analyze things to death. Like the shoes say: "Just do it."<P>(Some folks--especially my husband--would call me impulsive in some cases. But I think that once you have made a good logical decision on the battlefield, understanding what losses you might incur, you stick with your first idea and go move ahead with all your forces. . .Army training--it did wonders for me.)<P>Of course you are not over being with your friend yet. And of course you don't want to hurt your wife. Of course it's going to be difficult. BUT YOU ARE DOING THE RIGHT THING AND THAT IS WHAT MATTERS<P>Just don't be too defensive of us, friend. I know that may be difficult for you at present knowing what you are going through. <P>We all have different outlooks and different ideas--but we all have your best interest in mind. Take what you can use and lump the rest in the barrel for future referrence.<P>You will do fine. Just keep us posted.

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Ivory,<P>Mission accomplished. Truthfully? I meant to yank your chain by planting seeds of doubt about the OW's role that I strongly believe to be valid. <P>No, the OP is not a bad person; flawed, yes. We are *all* flawed. We are all manipulative, conniving, self-centered, under-handed, duplicitous people from time to time, especially when we're trying to get something we desperately want. I'll be the first to admit that I have not been an angel all of my life, and I'm not an OP or a WS. So it's not an OP trait - just a very human one.<P>Good luck tomorrow. Don't kick yourself if you make a few gaffs. You can plan out what you want to say and how you want to say it, but when emotion takes over ... well, just be your true self. And be honest. If you stay with your W and truly work for a better marriage and relationship, a year from now, you will probably wonder, "Why did I do such a silly thing?"<P>That's all of the advice I have for you.<P>belld

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Dear Ivory,<P>First off, OW needs to go on with her life and you need to let her. I agree with the natural death of the A. However, OW is still quite important to you. I read between the lines, you speak too affectionately about her and her opinions. Also, she should not even have a clue as to when you will tell your wife. It is not her business and I sure hope she is not waiting in the wings for you when you do. I personally think of her as alien about to feed on the remains of your wife. You have given her power over your wife by letting her know when and more than likely what, your intentions are for confessing.<P>I don't know what I would consider worse, telling your wife point blank or letting her "catch" you. Either way would be devastating. I think you should really prepare yourself for a scenario you may have never witnessed in your life. It is much akin to learning of a loved ones death.<P>I wish you luck, and I wouldn't want to be in your shoes. I think maybe you should consider a back up plan for her well being.<BR>Such as, notifying someone close to the two of you (who knows) so they can be of some help to you if need be. This could very well become an emotional crisis situation for her and she might need medication. More than likely, she is going to want someone she highly trusts to be with her for a time, and that won't be you. It's a thought to consider.<P>I know I sound morbid and so judgemental. I don't much about your marriage, how long, children, etc. but please know I feel for you and even more for your wife... Been there, it is not a pretty sight.<P>God bless you all,<BR>Cathy<P>

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OK...a checklist of sorts:<P>Likely questions:<BR>Do you love her?<BR>Do you love me?<BR>How could you do this?<BR>Are you going to leave me?<BR>What did I do or what is wrong with me?<BR>What were you thinking or how could you let this happen?<BR>Why didn't you tell me?<P>And do you have a plan if she wants you to leave tonight?<BR>If she does, it could be her way of making you prove that want to fight for her and your marriage, which none of us, maybe least of all you are sure you want to do. So saying OK and leaving may be the worst thing you could do if you want to save your marriage.<P>On the other hand, she might truly want some space. Is there anywhere in the house you could go, or anywhere that she would trust you were fully accountable and would not run or contact OW?<P>In other words, if you did leave the house, could you honestly say "OK, I will give you some time and space, but I do not want to leave. I am going XXXX and I will be available for you to contact me at anytime to either talk or come home. If you do not call me, I will be back at XXX time tomorrow.<P>And please pray. Pray for the right approach the right words. When I confronted my H, I am sure the words coming out of my mouth were not my own. I literally heard myself speaking and wondered what was going to come out next...and then being amazed it sounded so calm and rational and even loving. It certainly was not what I was feeling, yet it wasn't like I was consciously trying to craft my words or being emotionally dishonest. I truly think God heard my prayer that my family be spared and he took over. <P>

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It's a large house...there are areas to which I can go, places to sleep if need be. If for some reason she doesn't want me in the house, there are motels. If she didn't want me in the house, I'm sure it would not be a kick-me-out basis, but rather a temporary, probably overnight basis.<P>And please, let me say that I <I>have</I> heard all that everyone has said about how unpredictable her reaction should be considered. I do, I do, I do get it. I am not counting on any given reaction or presuming I know anything about anything about anything.<P>This is not a good day. I don't ask for or expect any sympathy or empathy. Sometimes I think I'm about convinced that I don't, in fact, want to save the marriage. I *suspect* deep down that I do, but many things are in the hopper clouding the issue. I will attempt to speak to her out of what I suspect the truth really is rather than what my present emotions are. You may think that will sound hollow and unconvincing, thus be ineffective, but I know how I can be, and she and I have had previous discussions where I was able to say how I felt but also acknowledge that those very feelings were an indication of a certain poverty that needed to be corrected. My spiritual life is a little vacuous at the moment, so while I may indeed cast a prayer it almost would be a foxhole prayer. <P>Certainly all of you would wish that I could appear before her with the utmost contriteness. (Not to say that I think what I did was anything but "contrite-able") That might turn out to be the case when all is said and done. As I see her face crumble into tears perhaps it will speak to me in a new way of the treasure that she is to me, and the utter stuipity of what I've done.<P>I wonder if perhaps I should be more certain about what I really am willing to fight for. That would mean postpoining the time tonight, but I don't know what the passage of time would really do--harm or good--toward the ultimate need to get past this point. Some have criticized a certain sense of detachment, while I have tried to explain that with a divided heart there's not going to be the degree of brokenness that all you BS's wish you saw (perhaps because you know the pain she will feel, or because your own H didn't show any, or who knows what else...). Yes, I did ask for advice, but no, I can't particularly assimilate into one man (me) each and every specific nuance of how I should try to be that have been mentioned by various ones of you. Again---I know that you were trying to respond to what I asked for.<P>The way people read between the lines here I probably should say that if you think you are detecting some waffling about whether I will or will not go through with this, let me say again that I do plan to do this. The one caveat is that she is working out of town today and I do not know when she will get back. If she is absolutely dead tired, and often she is, then I think it is not reasonable to thrust this on top of that. It would magnify everything. It might be better to wait until the next day (Saturday). <P>I am weary. I am sad. Those of you who feel it is my just reward, please just keep it to yourself today. I don't know what the "record" is for messages on a topic, but after 70+ messages so far, I think that about everything that reasonably can be said HAS been said. I do appreciate everyone's attempts to weigh in on this, even the flames. Hey, if I provided a vent source for you, so be it.<P>If I haven't addressed recent questions to the questioner's satisfaction, it is out of oversight more than anything. <P>Ivory<P>

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OK...one more thing...I don't know if I can put this into words properly.<P>You need to decide whether you are going to make your decision or base your actions on your feelings or some kind of logic or value structure.<P>I think it is safe to say your feelings are all over the place and you really have no idea what you are going to feel next or for how long. So if you plan to make your decision about your marriage or about the OW based on feelings, it is anybody's guess what the eventual outcome will be. Although we could predict the it would be a wild rollercoaster of emotions and even changes in course and periods of confusion and indecision. If you ended up choosing your marriage, this period will cause a lot of damage in addition to the actual affair.<P>If you put your feelings aside (I know that is next to impossible) and look at this situation through your belief and value system and make the excrusiatingly painful decision that you will recommit to your marriage, then although the feelings will remain conflicted, maybe your words and actions will become clearer.<P>If you decide not matter how you "feel" or deep your pain is, or how unnatural it seems, that you will say and do and, as much as it is possible, to think, in terms of saving your marriage, you will save yourself and your wife a whole heaping bunch of pain in the long run.<P>Is this possible?<P>

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Ivory,<P>I hope you read what I replied before. I am trying to just give you pointers as you asked. And to answer your question:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Those of you who are BS's...do you wish your husband had been doing this prior to his confessing to you? isn't it better than nothing? isn't it some attempt, even if a few of you think it lame, to force upon myself the absorption of some concepts? Isn't there some advantage to have this stuff located at some place inside my brain as I try to deal with my wife?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><B> YES</B><P>My h essentially did what you are trying to do and a year later we have a much better marriage than we ever did.<P>A decision on your part to fully pursue this marriage to the point you either succeed or you and your w agree to part as friends IS THE MOST I WOULD THINK YOU CAN DO RIGHT NOW.<P>There is no point in faking remorse. My h's came much later and it was clearly from the depths of his heart. God works in mysterious ways. I became pregnant sometime after he told me, and it was the anticipation that God was entrusting us with another precious life that broke him. He wept, repenting for his sin, for how deeply he had hurt me, and for how he almost threw away his family.<P>We later had a miscarriage.<P>Regardless of the final outcome, I firmly believe you are doing the right thing and I applaud you for coming here.<P>You are clearly absorbing many concepts and there is a lot of HOPE, though you may not feel it right now.<P>I will keep you in my prayers...<P>

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Ivory,<P>No suggestions or questions this day. I just want to let you know that I do believe you are trying to do what's best. I see that you fully understand the whole situation and nuances that accompany it. Your thought process seems to be very much like my H's. I knew that when he decided to stay and work on us that he didn't love me. He did it because he knew that it was the best thing to do and that if we worked Harley's program that it was possible to fall in love with each other again. That is what has kept us going these past six months.<BR>I just want to let you know that I will pray that you have grace tonight and that your wife will somehow understand. Even though it hurt me, I did feel that I understood certain reasons for the A.<P>take care,<BR>cleo

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ivory:<BR><B>I will attempt to speak to her out of what I suspect the truth really is rather than what my present emotions are.</B><P>One thing I've found out in my relationship is that my W is alot more perceptive at weeding out my BS from my heartfelt emotions that I ever suspected.<P>Anyway, Ivory, I think you have come a long way since the beginning of this thread. I appreciate that you are struggling to do the right thing, and are conflicted over what that is. I think that your wife will be desperately looking for signs of love and commitment, and I hope you can provide them to her.<P>I hope tonite is the beginning of a wonderful new phase of honesty and commitment in your marriage. You'll be in my prayers.<P>Mike

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You and your W are in my prayers, too, Ivory. May God extend His hand to you and give you the strength and conviction to fight for your marriage.<P>belld

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Thinking and praying for you and your W tonight.<P>These messages made me cry and gave me strength to continue.<P>Ka

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I appreciate everyone's thoughts and prayers. Thank you.<P>If possible, it sure would be wonderful if the woman who's <I>already</I> your wife also were to become your lover, the person you can't wait to see at the beginning and end of the day, the one you laugh easily with, have interesting conversations with, enjoy going places with and the one who holds the bag when you bag the leaves....<P>Ivory<p>[This message has been edited by Ivory (edited January 12, 2001).]

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Okay Mike-<BR>I am not trying to be a flamer, but here is the reason I said that first sentence (wondering why people were so hard on Ivory.) The truth is is that Everyone is trying to be sincere and objective, but some are using Ivory to let off some of their own steam to their WSs, and I think it has been highly repetitive and demeaning. I am surpised that ivory has returned in front of the gun so many times. I wouldn't have.<P>What ever his agenda, has anyone thought about the fact that his W may actually already know or is on the verge? My first suspicions, then clues, then incongruity that lead to my demanding the truth, literally took place in 24 hours. I kid you not. Oh sure I knew my marriage had difficulty, but I never fathomed that my place as Love and Wife had been challenged!!!And I did NOT know he had given it away!!!!!!<P>What if this blows up in Ivory's face? Just as my H's A blew up on him with my discovery when he was not prepared for me to know yet? My H fell on the floor in fetal postion and screamed for fifteen minutes that he should die. Is that what you would like for Ivory?<P>I say tell her man, whatever your underlying agenda-good, bad, or indifferent. Just get it over with so she can join the cirle! Then after the intial shock, etc has worn off, she will tell you what she needs from YOU. You need to make changes in your view of her emotional needs because the moment you tell her they will change. Respect her and show her that respect--she deserves it. It is showing her respect to tell her the truth. You are ready, so don't put it off.

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