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<p>[ January 09, 2002: Message edited by: OffOnOnOff ]</p>

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Y'know, I have trouble with this one, too. I am basically an honest person, and tend to think out loud to get other perspectives. But I am learning not to do that around the stbx.<P>Now I can't address the LB's and recovery and such, never having gotten that far. However, I think you are giving up an advantage if you tell her your plans.<P>Before the separation, you are financially tied together. If you tell her, she could really take you to the cleaners. Clean out the joint bank accounts, take out a second on the house, etc. Could take the kids and bail. Lots of possibilities that will leave you wondering what happened.<P>Don't tell her anything.

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As for leaving (Plan B???) I'd get advice from Steve Harley. My thought is that it is about time, but as to whether to tell in advance, what do I know? Anyway, my 2 cents on rest of q's...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Do you think that a year since D-day is long enough for anyone to realize what he/she has done to his/her spouse?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>If that person is out of the fog, not still mentally wrapped up in OP, and if you've been communicating honestly, yes.<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Are we in recovery after my wife ended her PA and EA, but has not worked on our marriage?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>My understanding is that recovery begins when both spouses are working on recovery plan for marriage together, so I'd say no. I'd guess you never started recovery & have just been in limbo.<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>How long do I have to wait for the recovery to begin after ending EA?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>She has to go thru withdrawal for OP, and then decide she wants to work on the marriage. Time varies. I'd say ours took months...5-6 for ending of feelings towards OW.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Does the separation have to happen before we can reconcile?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Are you saying that you are hoping to leave as part of Plan B, and hope it will cause her to recommit to the marriage? If so, great (but waiting til summer may be too long, how are you holding up???). In some cases it seems that the other will recommit right after getting Plan B notice. In other cases it seems to take several months...not sure you can guess here.<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Am I back to ground zero again every time we ended up arguing (Lbing)?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>No, bcs you started out with a negative balance. You build it up, and a LB episode may cause you to lose ground, but probably not all the way back down.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Does that mean plan Aing all over again?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I;ve heard it said that you should have at least 6 weeks of a good solid Plan A under your belt b4 Plan B. So, after a bad argument, you prbably do want (ideally) to Plan A a bit more, but not if things are so starined that you risk blowing up worse...<P>

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My friend, you ask some serious questions! BTW, it's nice to see you here, even if the message is sad. Okay, let's get down to it:<P>"I get to the point where I don’t think I can save this marriage any more. I don’t know what it is. It could be a thick fog, blindside, too much guilt, too much resentment, or combination of things. My wife didn’t seem to want to do anything about our marriage. To her it was emotionally over with me the day I told her parents and it was physically over with me the day she had sex with the OM. It has been almost a year since D-day and I don’t see any sign of hope at all." First, let me say how sorry I am that you two do not seem to be moving toward a stronger, more loving marriage. Second, let me commend you for the great patience and determination and commitment that you've shown. You have learned so much and done such a good job, and I'm so sorry that you are feeling so hopeless. I do have a question for you, though. I'm sure by now you are quite an expert at Plan A, but how is the Plan A for YOU going? Surely that is one area where there is a little progress and hope. Why, aren't you redeveloping your sense of humor and your love of life? Aren't you becoming the man that God intended for you to be? <P>Now, on to YOUR questions:<P>"Should I tell her right away that I’m thinking about leaving her by summer? Or should I tell her when the time comes without<BR>warning?" Let me tell you my story rather briefly. I am a dumpee. My stbxH came to me on Feb. 3rd last year and said he wanted to leave and did not love me anymore. That very same day, we told our kids together that we, mom and dad, were taking a break from each other and would not be living together anymore. So for me, there was no warning. It took me months to recuperate and get my head back on straight, because although I knew there were problems in our marriage that were serious, I didn't think he'd leave. Now, up to that point I had been totally faithful to my H, so our stories are a little different, but you might be able to answer this question better knowing what it's like from my "dumped" point of view. I would say, hit her with a brick now. In other words, don't hint and don't suggest, tell her that you love her desparately and would do anything to work this out, but that the way things are now is not acceptable to you, and you can't continue like this. Tell her what WOULD be acceptable to you (counseling? sleeping in same bed? what?), and be straightforward and clear and don't beat around the bush. Now, it may be an LB, that's true, but a person deserves to be told the truth to their face.<P>"Should I slowly tell my kids about it? Or should I just wait until then too?" I wouldn't say anything to the kids until you have a clear talk with your wife. No need to rock their world until absolutely necessary. Also, when you do tell them, have her participate. One way or another, she contributed to this continuing pain, and she has to face the consequences of her choices. Ouch! Sorry, but it's true.<P>"Do you think that a year since D-day is long enough for anyone to realize what he/she has done to his/her spouse?" Well, that is for you and her to decide, but I will comment that I know you have been exceedingly patient and thoughtful on this topic, and she does not want to face her problems. Many people can not be patient for a year, and many people can be patient for longer--so I can't tell you what to do. However, I have to tell you, I think she knows exactly how much she has hurt you and even has a clue of how much she continues to hurt you. That's why she can not forgive herself and she does not feel worthy to be your wife.<P>"Are we in recovery after my wife ended her PA and EA, but has not worked on our marriage?" In a word, no. Recovery is when both spouses are working together on the marriage. Once again, ouch! and I'm sorry to have to say that to you, but I agree with kam6318--you've been in limbo.<P>"How long do I have to wait for the recovery to begin after ending EA?" Well, that varies from couple to couple. Can I ask, have you read the article entitled, "How to Treat a Cheating Wife?" I'll look for a link, because I think it would be very eye-opening for you. <P>"Does the separation have to happen before we can reconcile?" Are you asking, do you have to live apart before you can start coming together? Well, that varies from couple to couple too. In some cases, yes, the people need to live apart, totally break contact with the OP, do the mourning and the work to get over it/do the counseling and the work to forgive the huge hurt, and then come back together. But not everyone has to separate. <P>"Am I back to ground zero again every time we ended up arguing (Lbing)?Does that mean plan Aing all over again?" Regarding the part of your question that pertains to LBing, there has been a foundation of hurt that is already laid, and gradually you are repairing the foundation. Then you are adding bricks and walls. So when you LB, sometimes it shakes the repairs in the foundation, which can knock down the walls that you so carefully built. The problem is, we are all human and can't deny our real feelings. So you need to learn to speak your real feelings in openness, honesty and gentleness. For example, if I am upset that you are going on a business trip over my birthday, I need to express that feeling, but I need to be non-attacking, open and gentle. "I feel sad that you are chosing to go on this business trip over my birthday, because I do not feel important to you and birthdays are special to me." See? I stated my feelings--I was honest--I open about my feelings, and I owned it as MY problem. The attacking, LB way would be "You never pick me over work. You don't care about me."<P>Next, I think Plan A is a lifetime thing. For the rest of your life, be the very best man, father, and husband you can be. Get to know yourself, live up to your full potential, and live and love with gusto. Keep learning and keep moving forward and improving. And out of that kind of love and energy, willingly and gratefully meet the needs of your partner. Out of that kind of love and energy, learn the way that your partner needs to have his/her needs met and learn how to do it. <P>Okay? Now, take some time for yourself and think about all the responses here. <P>{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{OOOO}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}<P>CJ [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<BR><P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

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<p>[ January 09, 2002: Message edited by: OffOnOnOff ]</p>

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OOOO:<P>Have you tried counseling with the Harley's yet? It might give you some perspective. If I were you, I would continue Plan A for now. But you need to learn how to let your wife know when she's lovebusting on you---in a way that's not disrespectful or mean. Complete honesty is important, and withholding your feelings may be an issue (letting her have your "feelings" straight between the eyes would be an issue as well... [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]).<P>Plan B should be something you prepare for without your spouse's knowledge. It's not divorce---it's a separation for you to save your love for your spouse. So as such, using the "threat" of a separation isn't really the MB way---it ends up as a selfish demand. <P>And don't lovebust. It's a critical first step. If the affair (contact) has really been over for only a couple months, I'd tell you to realistically expect another 6-12 months of Plan A-type work. Try some of the phone counseling---it'll help you be more effective in your Plan A.

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Dear OOOO,<P>Don't have much experience in many of the above questions but would like to drop a line of encouragement and support.<P>I think your wife is already preparing herself should you leave or stay (rememeber the websites that you said she visited concerning dating and preventing divorces?).<P>What about a legal separation paper first (check with a lawyer on advantages of this)? This may or may not lead to divorce but could be used as a last ditch effort to get her to counselling and rededicate her marriage vows and have a brand new marriage.<P>I feel that you need to do all the groundwork first as you said she was threatening to kill the children if she loses custody. In a situation like this, if you were to prepare her first, she may run off with the children on impulse.<P>I will pray for you. Sorry that I am not able to answer all the questions.<P>God help and bless you<BR>love from weep

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OffOnOnOff,<P>Something dawned on me overnight. Yes, it's true that kam6318 and I discussed all your questions, but I feel I missed the biggest one of all. I can't look into the future and tell you what's going to happen, and I can't tell you if you will be married or single in 2002. But I can tell you, that no matter what happens, YOU'LL BE OKAY. Whether you struggle to work on this marriage, with your wife struggling with you, or whether you end of separating or even divorcing, YOU WILL SURVIVE. It won't be easy and it will hurt like hell, no matter which road you chose, but you will become a better man, and you will never, ever be alone. <P>Sorry, I missed that one yesterday.<P>{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{OOOO}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}<P><BR>CJ <P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

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OOOO,<P>If I had read this post earlier, I wouldn't have had to post my own. My questions are almost identical, except that my W and I were separated for a long time.<P>I too have been wondering when recovery starts. Is it when contact ends? Is it when she doesn't yell at me for a small mistake? Does it start with the kiss I got at Christmas (the first one in nearly two years)?<P>Just wanted to thank everyone who responded and to let you know that I'm going to be following your posts more closely now.<P>Hang in there.

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Hello <BR> I hope I am not to late to reply to your post, I was meaning to do it earlier today. Anyway,I just wanted to say, I just went through my husband confessing to me (just before x-mas)and I had tons of questions and he did the right thing about answering them, please don't drag out the details or tell only half truths, It took my husband 4 days to come clean completely, it damages so much trust. If you are going to tell her, tell it all, everything , no matter how hard it is for you to say it or how hard it is for her to hear it. And i hope you already have taken the first step and checked yourself for any STD'S because she will ask you. I was more fearful of that then what he told me.So you will have to prove somehow you did not bring home any std's to her, and you will have to explain how you could cheat on her and still sleep with her.When people do this they do not realize you have lived your spouces life for them without them even knowing, a very scary situation, helpless situation. She will feel devistated for having no clue and feel stupid for trusting you with her life. Also if you are only telling tell her so you feel better about yourself I would rethink it first. If you have no intentions of helping her and being at her beg and call or commiting to her for the rest of your life ,if that is what she wants, then i wouldn't say a thing. She does not need to be hurt this way. If you are really done having an affair and you care so much for your wife then, show her you care about her and that she means the world to you, maybe then she will handle it better when you can say, I wanted to prove my love to you, it wasn't enough to just tell you I had an affair but i wanted to also prove to you that it is over and your the only one i want to be with . Make sure you are ready to make a life long commitment to her if this is what you both want.I hope you also have changed the situation you where in that caused this affair, understand you will be under suspicion, with your every move, it won't be easy for you, but if you really want to tell her make sure you are doing it for the right reasons on boths your parts. Good Luck & God Bless...

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sorry i posted to the wrong person..

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<p>[ January 09, 2002: Message edited by: OffOnOnOff ]</p>

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4 O,<P>I have to agree weith K on the Harley advice.<P>I strongly suggest finding the $$...beg borrow and steal if you have to...It will pay off in dividends!!!<P>Bill

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I know how you feel. D-day for me was mid-November. Wife had EA with co-worker that led to phone sex. <P>It has been 2 months since then (I admire you for making a year!) and W is in limbo. The EA was really nothing more than an escape from reality for her. She is dealing with a lot of depression and guilt about things and would really benifit from some counseling.<P>She has told me that she wants to stay. I have been doing the plan A for myself and for her pretty well, but she is still on the fence. She told me that she had to deal with her own problems before she would be able to deal with ours.<P>I have a lot of the same feelings that you are having about this. When will she work on it? I am not to the point of leaving and am not sure that I ever will be. For me, I would probably re-withdraw out of hurt and self preservation and this would probably force her out. There are days (I'm sure you've been there after a year) where I don't know how I can continue.<P>I don't think LB'ing takes you back to ground zero, but I think it is a setback. My analogy is that my wife is climbing a hill. When she gets to the top, she will commit to staying and working things out. When I LB (usually by pressing her about the relationship) she slides back down the hill a little. Plan A continues.<P>Good luck OOOO,<P>Bill

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<p>[ January 09, 2002: Message edited by: OffOnOnOff ]</p>

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Thanks OOOO!<P>Yea, the EA is over. W admits to some remaining sexual attraction, but I think I know what is happening here. Our sex life the last couple of years has been pretty lean and pretty boring.<P>Over the last week, I discovered that there is a tiger in there waiting to come out. I have really been enjoying helping with this!!!<P>In addition, I mentioned to her in a very LB'less way that I had nearly had a chat with OM. He is not even aware that I know what happened. He has not asked about her mother's health (she nearly died). I told her that I wanted to tell him that I have known for some time (might make him feel a little funny that I knew and he didn't!) and that I was re-committed to the marriage, and that right now, W was dealing with personal issues and that he needed to back off for her good and the good of our kids. Not only did she not mind this she is actually considering asking me to do this. She said that she wished I had without her knowing so that she could have been surprised if he said something to her about it.<P>I really think that what happened was an escape for her. She has been VERY honest about everything that happened and said that they only really had 4 or 5 conversations that were anything other than normal work type conversations.<P>I am making myself and our home things she will no longer need or desire to escape from.<P>Bill


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