Hello My friends<BR>I know I have been gone for a long time. I have been hoping to post an update. Instead I am posting some new info that I need some feedback on.<P>For those who don't know my sordid story..I'll try to give a brief history.<P>My H met his bimbo in 1992. I objected to the "friendship" immediately but it continued. In'93 the bimbo moved about 150 miles away so I felt safer at first. <BR>Once the long distance phone bills started coming in it was obvious that the friendship continued.<BR>In'96 the phonecalls disappeared. You may all smack me with the 2X4 for the idiot I was. Stupid wassi failed to check the bills for his new cell phone. <BR>Dec. '98 D-day of the 2 month old PA<BR>March '99...intense PA "ended"<BR>Since then..repeated discoveries of minimal contact.<BR>(Pretty brief for so many years)<P>Now for the new discovery. I discovered a new phone # where he contacted her. Can't go into that now. This # was not long distance. It seems that the "friendship" was much bigger than I knew. The phone calls that I thought were occuring once or twice a month were more like once or twice a week. I have no idea how many really. The only calls I know of are from his cell phone. He could have called her every day from our home.<P>This went on during the two years that I thought there was nothing. I'm feeling very very stupid, violated, ...you know the ropes.<BR>He was never honest with me about this. <P>For the last two years he has been calling it "just a friendship" and minimizing it to extremes. I have no idea how often they saw each other. According to them...there was nothing wrong with it because she had several serious boyfriend during this time.<BR>I am not going there as I will get bitter.<P>In one way....this explains to me why "no-contact" was so difficult. <P>On the other hand....I am completely disoriented. Who is this man? Has he any conscience? Can I ever be safe? Why the h*&l am I here?<BR>The answer to the last one is the kids. I know beyond a doubt that I would not be here if it weren't for them.<P>This discovery is old news. But he should have told me the truth. He has proven once again that he has no concept of .....much. (I was going to say Honesty but it goes way beyond that). I guess in his mind he probably minimized it all since they were "just friends" <P>Sorry for the length of this. I needed a good vent and you all are the only ones I can talk to now.<BR>I know there are no answers. Please don't scold me for snooping...it's the only way I can get any concept of what has really happened in my life. I need some little bit of reality. The only reality I know is what I find.

Oh dear wassi...<P>You're going to think this is weird, but today I was thinking of posting a message to you to check & see how you are doing.<P>I'm so sorry about what is going on. I thought that you were doing okay. Sounds like the affair really never ended. What are you going to do?<P>((((Wassi))))

I am certainly not one that would scold you for snooping...I've done enough of it myself, and like you, that was the only way I had any knowledge of reality concerning my wife.<P>Switch the gender in your "who is this man" and "has he any conscience", and were talking about my wife. It is all mind boggling.<P>I don't have any startling thoughts, unfortunately...I'm just sorry you are going through this. I'm in a venting mood tonight.<P>Take care of yourself.

Wassi -<BR>AARRGGHH - when will it go away!!<P>Just to get a perspective on this - partially cuz I don't know your story and timelines & partially cuz I can't quite figure out what your are saying.<P>This "Thing" (this deceit, withholding info, distorting the truth) you are talking about with the extra phoning stuff, please answer if:<P>- was this something that happened during the time of the A - during the time he was having to lie and cover his tracks continually?<P>- is this something that has been happening since you have been "rebuilding" with your believing there is no contact?<P>I just kind of need this clarified before I can respond with what is on my mind.<P>So basically the question is: Is this a brand new betrayal OR is it part of the "original" sin (good phrase that just popped in my mind wouldn't you say!).<P>I'll watch for your replay - I've just kind of got some thoughts.<P>Sudz

Survivor<BR>I still want to call you "NoTrust" even though I know you are beyond that. <P>I'm okay...furious for the first time in all of this I think.<BR>This discovery is from 96-98 so it is old. Problem is that I would have done things a LOT differently if I had the luxury of the truth.<BR>What will I do? Too early. I have made a committment to myself to stay in this house undtil my son has at least got settled in college (fall).<BR>My H has been wonderful.....but he is relationship retarded.<BR>Right now...I am just feeling very stupid, disoriented, humiliated.....<P>Rick<BR>Isn't it soooooo sad that we have the opportunity to understand this stuff?<BR>I have been living this so long I feel as though I have a PhD in infidelity and that SUCKS!!!!!!<P>Sudz<BR>If I wrote a book I might be able to answer it properly. As I told Survivor...the new discovery is from the "friendship" Which I considered an EA from day 1. The "friendship" was exclusive of me TOTALLY. I will try to look back some old posts for you. I came here in April '99. <BR>As far as since the affair....I posted in late Oct. that I had discovered contact...after over a year of believing there was none.<BR>Trust me.....I don't think there is a H as Morally stunted as mine.

Hello wasstubborn!<P>I have been wondering how you are! As to scolding you for snooping, get serious. If I told you some of the things I have done to snoop, you wouldn't believe it.<P>Three months ago, I had a very similar experience. I was going through all the email accounts, deleting old stuff. Suddenly I came upon some old emails that had been deleted. There was nothing really upsetting in them, just some jokes that firestorm had forwarded to some friends, including the OW (with a short note, nothing that would have made me suspicious if I didn't know about the affair). But the DATE showed that he had lied about the length of time they had been contacting each other after he promised me he would not communicate with her in any way without telling me. ANOTHER LIE! It was like dday all over again. My point is that I know exactly how you feel. I don't have any advice, just empathy for your situation.<P>Firestorm and I are doing well. Last night he went to a local basketball game while I stayed home to catch up on some work. As he was standing in a long line waiting to buy his ticket, guess who came strolling up to join the line? Yep, the OW. Firestorm left the line, got in his truck, and came straight home. When he walked in I made a joke about the "quick game", and he told me why he decided not to go into the game. That is the first time he has done anything like that. I guess he has finally realized that it pays to be open and honest!<P>I wish things were going better for you, please keep in touch.<P>Peppermint

Hey peppermint <BR>It makes me so happy to hear that firestorm has made so many changes. <BR>I can't begin to explain right now the implications and lies involved in my discovery. Lies as recent as two days ago. <P>Now I am off to a hockey game (poor referee is about to get the brunt of this) so don't worry if I don't come back tonight. I am okay...just a little numb....feeling like I should post at "Just Found Out"

Oh Wassi,<P>I'm sorry that I misunderstood. I thought that the info was "new & recent." I guess that it still can be considered new, since you just found out about it.<P>I understand that it still hurts, just the same, because you were under the impression that there was no longer any contact, only to find out that you were being deceived.<P>Had I been more "educated on MB principles," I would have handled my situation differently also. Unfortunately, I had to learn the hard way, as most of us do. It sucks...I know...I know...<P>Don't make any rash decisions. After you absorb some of this, I'm sure that you'll get a better grasp on how to handle this.<P><p>[This message has been edited by Survivor [aka_NoTrust] (edited January 20, 2001).]

Wassi,<P>I can understand your feeling "stupid, humiliated, violated, etc. etc. etc!!!<P>My H, too, insisted they were just friends and that he had a right to have women friends. Then it went to he liked her, then he held her once to console her, then yes he told her he loved her, but never slept with her, but then yes he slept with her (once the story goes), but there was a lot of sexual play but it wasn't intercourse (so it's ok?). ETC.<P>Wassi, he was scared SH#%less - simple. He was so screwed up in his lies and justification to himself (trying to prove to himself he was NOT wrong), that he was still lying every time I asked for more info - leaking a small bit of the truth but OUT and OUT lying. Simply, he absolutly was not going to volunteer any more information than he absolutely had to. It took a long time to get it out of him - a lot of pain - and today I know I probably only know 50% to 75% of the stuff they did and the intimacy and closeness that bleeping OW had with my husband.<P>Why do they do this to us - it is the "Force of the Affair"!! I wrote a long post on this in the fall - please look at it. It REALLY helped me once I moved to this understanding.<P>Wassi - they were lying, betraying, cruel jerks during their A's. Why? Because the Force of the A mandated it MUST be that way. If you are going to have an A you MUST be deceitful and cruel. Kind of like "half-forgiveness" - it doesn't really happen. A spouse who has an A will be a total jerk. I know why my H lied to me, yelled at me, emotionally abused me - because he was weak and foolish enough to have a sexual, love relationship with the OW while trying to keep of the charade with his wife. What other choice did he have but to treat me so rottenly as long as HE CHOSE to be controlled by the Force of the A - the result was that I would be treated like dirt in my position as his wife. The continued contact (supposedly "casual") he had with his little tart for 7 mos still mandated that he act under the Force of the A. He was lying to his W every day about seeing her - he had no choice but to lie to me - by seeing her he was continuing the A - thus was continuing to be controlled by the Force of the Affair.<P>I guess what I am trying to say is I know this new info is the knife back in your stomach. It's a carry over of deceits when all you have wanted is for him to come clean, to realize this horrible time was part of your life too, to respect you enough to ensure you do not have to be shamed by anything further. After all - haven't you gone through enough?<P>Wassi, as much as I hate what we've gone through - I know truly know how this man I thought I knew for 23/24 yrs could have treated me - his wife - as a total second-class citizen compared to how he treated his OW - simply because of the "Force of the A".<P>Our first attempt a rebuilding was not good - he was expecting me to just forgive - all the while he was seeing her on a "casual" basis - because he was home & good (albeit lying to his W about contact with the OW). It couldn't be good - the Force of the Affair was still controlling how he felt about me, us and her.<P>Believe me, it does not hurt any less - but KNOWING why he treated me so poorly - he really had no choice based on his decisions at that time - as helped me to accept it.<P>I don't like what he did and how he treated me - I will hate it until I die - but I do not have to ask WHY or HOW - I know .. the Force of the Affair.<P>I HOPE THIS HELPS!!<P>I know this is one of my fears - silly as it is. As things are getting better - what if SOMETHING totally opposite of what he is having me believe surfaces from the past? What if I find out something that just proves to me that I am or was a sucker - what will I do? I think of this often... guess it can happen - eh?<P>Sudz

<B>Wassi</B><P>My dear friend. I am so sorry! Can I say it again. I am so sorry! I know how upset you must be if you are here posting. I wish I had been on earlier. My thoughts and prayers are with you of course.<P>I can't wait to talk to you through the IM's we do. I know I will understand better in our conversations.<P>I am going to wait until I hear from you and get a clearer picture of what is going on before I make more comments. I seem a little confused tonight. Don't know why?<P><B>{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Wassi}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}</B><P>Love ya,<P>------------------<BR><B>God bless you and all of us. We are all going to make it, all of us! With God on our side we can't lose! What God has joined together let no man put asunder. <P>Samantha</B><p>[This message has been edited by A blessed Samantha (edited January 20, 2001).]

Wassi, I just want to give you a hug.<P> (((((Wassi)))))<P>You are a beautiful person. You are QUALITY. You are not an idiot. You are not a fool. You are a wonderful, caring, devoted, loyal, dependable, creative, loving, generous, wise, smart, interesting, deep person. Don't you let yourself forget that.

I just thought of something.<P>Wassi, have you confronted him? Let's think this through...<P>If you haven't confronted him, then why don't you try and catch him in something (WITH WITNESSES THERE SO THERE IS NO STUPID EXCUSES ON HIS PART, SOME REAL HARD CORE EVIDENCE) so this can all come out in the open - and you can work towards some resolutions with all of this.<P>Let's get creative, ladies.

Where is the mastermind of sneaky resolutions? Sweat Pea, where are you when we need you?

((((((wasstubborn)))))))<P>I was thinking about you today and wondering how you are. I am so sorry that you are experiencing this pain YET AGAIN. Numb is exactly what I would expect you to feel. <P>I hope you are having a good time tonight at the game and that you are able to get out some of your justifiable anger there. I have been going to kick boxing and it really helps me to get my anger out. My poor instructor had no idea what she was in for when she, holding the punching bag, told me to take out my aggressions on this bag... She went flying... What can I say...<P>You are not stupid and you are not an idiot. You are a woman who trusted her H. That is what you were SUPPOSED to be. But, yet, I know exactly how you feel. So, have you talked to your H about this? Does he know that you know all this? <P>I feel for you so much as I endured those tell-tale cell bills too, as you know. I know exactly what you feel about that being your sense of reality. You know what has become really pathetic of me? I have become afraid to snoop. I am afraid of what I might find and I don't think I am strong enough to handle any more discoveries. Not that I have had any in a while, but there is always that fear. So, I think you are incredibly strong to be able to face this and soldier on. I hope you post back to all of us soon as I really need some more info on your situation. <P>And how are your children through all of this? Do they know? <P>

My dear friends....<BR>I'm sorry about my earlier posts. This new information means basically that they were best buddies for years while I thought there was no contact...and even when I found out I thought it was very sporadic. We are talking pretty much daily for years. I made a lot of major life decisions based on my perceptions of what was happening. My decisions would have been very different if I had known.<P>Survivor<BR>I know you understand. I have been through this too many times to make any rash decisions. It is simply that my whole understanding of my life has been turned upside down again. You try and try to deal with things only to find that isn't what was real.<P>Sudz<BR>I remember your post. It made a great deal of sense to me. You really help more than you know.<BR>The one thing I worry about when posting about my situation is that I will instill the "fears" that you are talking about in others. <BR>Please know that my situation is not the norm. I am dealing with something far bigger than an affair. I have known that for some time.<P>Samantha<BR>What can I say? I'm sorry you had to read this. That's the other thing I worry about. Disappointing my friends. <BR>I think that I could talk for months and still not be able to explain the depth of this new discovery. I am so tired.<P>TNT<BR>My dear friend.<BR>I told him what I know. I went to the hockey game without him. I did not go into detail about how I know. <BR> Sweetpea would have some wonderful thoughts. We think very much alike.<BR>I have nothing to say to my H at the moment. He knows that. I would not let him speak because I did not want to here the word "friend" today.<P>DI<BR>What is this ESP thing you and I have?<BR>I think I am winning the battle of Queen of the cell phone bills. <BR>My kids are older. They are fine. That is why I am still going. Their father has become close to them since the affair. That is the one major positive that has come out of this. They will not know what I have found. <BR>My brother is very ill...waiting for a bone marrow donor. When the boys see me cry it is very easy to let them think it is simply worry for my brother. A lot of it is. So I will pull this off for them. I have promised myself that.<BR>Thank you for caring.

We have now officially failed "communication 101".<BR>Apparently he thought I already knew this???

<B>Wassi</B><P>Just checking in. You haven't dissappointed me sweetie, not the right word.<P>I was just checking in to see how it all is going. I see by your last post that you were up very late. I am hoping your asleep at the moment.<P><BR>Your H certainly is failing at communication 101. Maybe this can be the start of his finally getting to figure out what that means and how to do it. At least how important it is. Geeze! <P><B>{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Wassi}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}</B><P><BR>I'll check in later.<P><BR>------------------<BR><B>God bless you and all of us. We are all going to make it, all of us! With God on our side we can't lose! What God has joined together let no man put asunder. <P>Samantha</B><p>[This message has been edited by A blessed Samantha (edited January 21, 2001).]

blankety blank blank blank and blank ! Where is my blankety blasnk blankin 2x4 ? <P>Wassi I am so so sorry that I live here in Texas and not close to you. We could have a phone party ! And then well... never mind I don't want to frighten the men here too much. You ever seen a Pace Picante commerical ? <P>You have not failed anything and he knows it. You didn't know because it was hidden from you plain and simple. <P>Please take care of you right now. I am sorry your brother is so ill. I will be praying. Wassi you know that we all love you<BR>at least you had better know it ! <P>------------------<BR>Deb<P>Hepatitis C, Please educate yourself ! <A HREF="http://www.hepatitis-central.com/<P>In" TARGET=_blank>http://www.hepatitis-central.com/<P>In</A> memory of a very dear friend <A HREF="http://fathom.org/teemingmillions/wally.adp" TARGET=_blank>http://fathom.org/teemingmillions/wally.adp</A>

Hey Wassi,<P>I REALLY, REALLY, REALLY, hate the "friend" excuse AND the "I thought you knew" excuse. I lived with it for nearly two years now myself. They are not even excuses, they are just plain lies!<P>First of all, I have many friends of both sexes. I don't have sex with any of them, nor any other kind of relationship that I need to hide. Secondly, as smart as you and I both are we are not mind readers. How were you supposed to "know" that he was talking to her? Maybe because he didn't specifically tell you that he WASN'T? And even if you had asked him point-blank, would he have told you the truth? I ASKED firestorm straight out on a regular basis if he communicated with the OW after I knew about the affair, and he looked me right in the eye and LIED. I believed him because I did not think he would lie to me so overtly. I was wrong, and therefore blindsided, just as you are right now. It is a very disconcerting feeling, and makes you feel that your whole relationship was a lie.<P>Please explain your comment about their relationship being more than an affair. I don't care WHAT he thinks it is, it is a dishonest, sneaky, conniving, filty AFFAIR. He can call it a "friendship" until the cows come home, but IT IS NOT. Even if it was, there is NO friendship that should hold precedence over your marriage. Period.<P>Is there any hope that this man is EVER going to "get it"? Firestorm's first counselor (she referred him to a specialist) told us that that was the most difficult part for a cheater's recovery. She told us that we would just be spinning our wheels in our relationship until he "got it", meaning accepted the blame and responsibility, stopped making excuses, acknowledged the pain and suffering he had caused me, came completely clean about the affair, and committed himself 100% to changing himself, making it up to me, and saving our marriage. She actually enumerated those things to him. SEVERAL TIMES. Then she told him that even if he did all of that, it might not be enough to save our relationship, since he had damaged it so severely. But that if he did not do those things, we had NO CHANCE to have a successful rebuilding.<P>When I spoke to her individually, the counselor told me that affairs are about the betrayer and not their spouse. She advised me not to waste my time feeling stupid or inadequate because I wasn't, that all I had done was put my marriage first and trust my husband to do the same. He failed, but I didn't. The same things are true about you.<P>From the tone of your posts, I would assume that this is the final nail in that coffin, and I can't blame you. What I can do is offer any help or support that you need. Whatever you decide to do regarding your marriage, we will be here to help in any way we can. I was really hoping that firestorm could help by talking to your husband. After I read your post last night and told him about it, he really wasn't surprised. He said he had the feeling it wasn't over and that your husband didn't want his advice. I wish we could do more. We'll be thinking about you and hoping for a miracle.<P>Peppermint

Morning, Wassi (I'll drop the "good" on purpose!).<P>I see by your last post you were either up with the birds or up all night. Isn't it amazing the power their pain upon us has?<P>I wouldn't worry that your posts will instill fears - what we have been through has already instilled the fears. I, for one, must no longer be naive (about time at 49 yrs old). I must be able to see things as they are. That is the only way I can truly protect myself. I cannot control how anyone treats me - but I have control over what I do with their actions.<P>What little bit I know about you, this situation with bimbo went on so long that it is a very major part of your time with your H. Because it has gone on SO long, you must have been "slapped" with it many, many times. You must have had that knife in your stomach more times that not the last 8 yrs or so. It is so hard to try to think clearly when everything comes back to this.<P>I think to succed and recover, there has to come a time or point in the process where the line from the past is really crossed into the present. Has you H done that? Like, is he truly sorry he was so stupid for so long that he kept hurting you over and over? Does he truly realize the unfairness of his selfishness for you? Do you like the person in your H that you see now? If - big if - you could wipe away the horrible past transgression - do you LIKE the man who is with you now?<P>I'm sure at times like this - you just want to give up and run. Each new piece of junk or pain I was hit with, I wanted to run. There are just so many things to think about and I KNOW you are getting sick of it consuming you!<P>No concrete advice to give. I guess you just keep weighing things - what else is there? Even though we are at a pretty good spot and I am having faith in him - I cannot promise him that I will not leave yet because of this. Like I told him, I am here because I haven't made a decision to leave and I am working on accepting my life as it will now have to be. He still has lots of "proving" to do. He realizes that I am paranoid and cautious because of what HE did, and that he has altered my trust in him as well as my trust in the life I used to call mine. It will never be the same - and it won't. I must accept that. But it probably can be very, very good and perhaps the lesser of many evils.<P>Best go and get coffee on. I hope you can get the "answers" - whatever they are - you need to get that knife feeling out of you again for a while!<P>Sudz