Hey, I've been on both sides of infidelity... and I know how it is to hate -- no, <B>HATE</B> -- the OW. <P>But PLEASE, can we stop the comments like "fat [censored]" and how she caused "an earthquake" and comparisons (with a link, no less) to Sumo wrestling?<P>My gosh, have any of you ever had a weight problem? I used to weigh 300 pounds (I've lost over 100) and I HATED myself. I know you'll tell me that your OW doesn't "hate herself" or something similiar -- but do you understand how hurtful it is to read those comments? Would you make a comment about disability or race? No, I don't think you would, because you wouldn't want to hurt anyone on this board who has a disabillity or is of a differing race.<P>It frankly just hurts me to read this stuff, even if your pain is "understandable"... <BR><P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>(a bit worse for the wear, but hanging in there)<P><B>Life <I>is</I> difficult</B>.<BR><I>The Road Less Traveled</I><BR>~M. Scott Peck

If it bothers you then don't read it! There are many posts I find offensive here for different reasons but I simply don't read them. Stop taking thing so personally geez! People should be free to vent here w/o worrying about who they might offend.

I agree with New-beginning. It's ok to vent but you don't need to be so insensitive to others. Everyone on the board is hurting or has been hurting. Don't add to the hurt.

I apologize if my comments offended you or anybody else here. That certainly wasn't my intention. But I don't apologize for speaking my mind about exactly what I think about the OW looking the way that she did.<P>I'm sorry, but a woman that heavy does NOT have any business being dressed the way that she did - a halter top that ties in the back that barely covered her breasts and a a leather miniskirt that barely covers her butt. Personally, I feel that even if you have a figure like Jennifer Lopez, you don't need to wear clothes like that. By flaunting herself the way that she did that night, I feel that she set herself up for each and every comment that was made toward her. I don't care if you're "secure" with your body or not. <P>And you're right - I never have been extremely overweight. I've certainly never looked like Calista Flockhart, but I've never been extremely heavy. I am about 18 lbs over what I'd like to be right now due to my (now lost) pregnancy and the fact that I haven't worked out in a while, but because I'm tall, it's only noticeable w/o clothes. I'm working out and cutting out the starches and the sugar, so I know that I'll get to where I want to be.<P>I'm not saying that you can't be overweight and a beautiful person, because you can. Holly (the friend mentioned in my previous post) is a model for Lane Bryant, and she is gorgeous! Her hair, nails, clothes and makeup are always perfect - with the way that she takes care of herself and carries herself, all you see is a beautiful woman with a great personality. With the OW, the weight was the first thing that you notice because she actually draws attention to it. She flaunts it in a crude and tactless way. I'm sorry, but if she doesn't want to be the "butt" of anyone's jokes, she should cover it up.<P>A disability can't be helped. Nobody should be ashamed of their race - that doesn't need to be helped! But the OW in my situation is in complete control of her own destiny - she made herself what she is today, and I have no sympathy for her whatsoever. <P>I do sincerely hope that you don't take what I've said personally - it was only directed towards her. I have always been taught to speak my mind, and wouldn't you agree that it's better for me to express my frustrations here and get it out of my system on an anonymous forum (well, for most people it is.) As I said, when one presents themselves in a manner in which she <B>chose</B> to, she is setting herself up.

I agree with you....<P>Hey, how have you been????? What is going on with you?

Hmmm...<P>Obviously, I don't take the comments "personally" since they are not directed TO ME. So, no, I'm not sitting here crying about it or anything. <P>...and... <P>No, a disability cannot be "helped" but there are some within the "fat community" that feel that fat is a disability -- so -- to some, that cannot be helped either. But you make a somewhat valid point, with regard to the comparison of disability vs. fat. <P>But that is not my point either.<P>So, you might wonder, what is? You know, I had to stop and think about it, seriously. And here's what I came up with:<P>When we begin to use the physical attributes - or lack thereof - as a guage for the value of a person, we ignore the REAL problems. The real problem in the case of most OW is **not** that they're fat, or dress slutty, or have leather skin... it is a lack of integrity and honor... or a mental illness (as some have argued on this very board)... or simply that they are extreemly selfish women.<P>Remember, I had FIVE OW in my life, and I had to look beyond what they looked like and look AT <B>who</B> they were and <B>how they met my then-H's needs</B>. <P>Also, I was an OW (which is what brought me to MB in the first place), and I was heavy at that time. I got the emails from the OM's girlfriend/live-in that called me fat and ugly, and I know how it feels from that side too. <P>Bottom line though, is that <I>I met a need, <B>despite my weight</B></I>, that his girlfriend did not. **And PLEASE do not misunderstand me ** I was WRONG and SELFISH. <P>So, and I hope I am making SOME KINDA SENSE , but I just feel that it hurts you, not helps you, when you use weight as the issue.<P>Whew! Hope I don't sound preachy. I don't mean to...<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>(a bit worse for the wear, but hanging in there)<P><B>Life <I>is</I> difficult</B>.<BR><I>The Road Less Traveled</I><BR>~M. Scott Peck<P><p>[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited March 27, 2001).]

Hi <B>Susan</B>,<P>Long time, no read!!<P>I've been briefly over on the Divorce/Divorcing board... David and I are divorced, and I am with someone else now... and it's quite a long story. If you'd like, you can read about it on this link <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum34/HTML/002352.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum34/HTML/002352.html</A> <P>I have yet another link on that thread that tells the story right before my divorce became final... I know, I am full of drama!!<P>My email addy is the same, if you still have it... <P>Nice to "see" you, Susan!<P><P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>(a bit worse for the wear, but hanging in there)<P><B>Life <I>is</I> difficult</B>.<BR><I>The Road Less Traveled</I><BR>~M. Scott Peck

Sheryl, I was one of the people making fat comments, but you're absolutely right. Obviously the OW, who is more than twice my size, and less than 1/2 my age, met needs of my H that I wasn't meeting, and I can't imagine I would have felt any better about her if she was older, thinner, or prettier. I guess it just feels good to attack her for her obvious weaknesses because I still feel so hurt by what happenned between her and my H.

Gads, one of the gals here at work joked that I should change my Username to "Eminem" <P>NB, you are totally entitled to your opinion. But I can't agree with you, and I'm not going to walk on eggshells worrying about whether or not I'm going to offend anybody with something that I say. If I have to censor what <I>might</I> be offensive to one person or another, then hell, I might as well stop posting altogether.<P>When I first came here, there was a gal who made jokes about the flat chest of her H's OW. Now, I always joke that the only subject that I ever made straight "A's" on was my chest, but I never took offense to the flaming that she did. If she would have said "Carolina Belle, with that chest the only thing you'll ever amount to is a surfboard," then I might have taken some offense to it, but it wasn't about me.<P>She certainly isn't a poor, innocent victim of big, bad CB's verbal assault. I'm not saying any of this behind her back - she has heard from me 90% of what I've posted about her. I wouldn't have gone there if she wouldn't have been harrassing me as badly as she was that night. I'll be a "Plan A" Doormat for my H because I love him, but I'll be damned if I'm going to back down from the OW when the only reason she's attacking me is because I'm his wife, and he had the "nerve" to cut off all contact w/her and stick w/me and his son. She had to hide in a group of her barfly friends before she could go off on me, and in the end, I still feel like I came out of that as the better woman.<P>I know that their link was alcohol - nothing more, nothing less. I mean, let's face it - in those dives, it doesn't take a lot to become the "Belle of the Bar" - especially around 2:00 AM! I know damn well I didn't give my marriage a 100% effort, but I do now, and we're doing a lot better than we were. My H only goes to the bar when he's with me now (maybe once a month), and he no longer drinks at home. Problem solved.<P>And I won't even get started on the whole "mental illness" thing. Don't get me wrong - if somebody needs personal counseling, I sincerely hope that they get it. But the majority would be doing themselves and the counselor a favor if they just "get over it." Lick a finger, turn a page, and move on. Do some people genuinely need psychological help - <B>ABSOLUTELY</B>. But I have seen so many people use it as an excuse - my #1 pet peeve is people who justify a wrong by saying, "the devil made me do it," "I'm a sex addict," etc. There are many, many people in the world who have had worse odds that have made something of themselves. I strongly feel that if it's holding you back, do something about it. If one is uncomfortable with their weight, see their doctor about a diet/exercise regimen. If you're uncomfortable with your breast size **raising hand**, get a boob job (which I'll be doing this summer). If you're afraid of being around people because your nails look bad, glue some on. If something is keeping somebody from feeling great about themselves, they need to either do something about it, or live with it. If you're an alcoholic, suck it up and get to AA. But these excuses have got to stop! **deep breath**<P>(see, I told you I shouldn't have gotten on this subject! )<P>My post was very therapeutic for me. I got what I needed to get off my chest OFF of it, and now I can let it go. NB, I'm sorry that it bothers you, I truly am. But Tina's right - if it bothers you, don't read it. If my headline pertains to an encounter with the OW or a general "vent" post, don't walk - RUN! I've heard more derragatory remarks made on primetime sitcoms than what I've posted. I'm a direct person - I haven't decided yet whether that's a flaw or an asset. I'm honest about what I feel. I've learned the hard way not to dwell on things or make excuses, and my marriage has become better than it was. I'm still learning, and I love reading other people's opinions...but that doesn't mean that I have to agree with them. Just like you don't have to agree with mine.<P>And no, that wasn't preachy. But have you ever thought about joining a debate team? <P>

This sums up my view of the OW in a non-offensive way:<P>The Difference Between Winners and Victims:<P>Victims blame everyone for their lack of success. They blame the system,<BR>it<BR>is just set up for "certain" people. They blame "the breaks" - they<BR>just<BR>never get any lucky breaks. They blame their "circumstances." In fact,<BR>they blame their mother and their first grade teacher.<P>Winners; however, accept responsibility for the fact that they did not<BR>achieve their goal because they didn't study the rules, they didn't talk<BR>to<BR>enough people, they didn't hold enough classes, they watched that<BR>television<BR>program when they could have been making calls, etc. They are thankful<BR>that<BR>they took the good and bad from their upbringing and made something<BR>positive<BR>from all of it.<P>Victims see every obstacle as a huge ugly problem that is just<BR>insurmountable. Winners see every obstacle as an opportunity for<BR>improvement and growth. It may have cost them a lot this time, but<BR>it'll<BR>never cost them again. Winners realize that they will see that same<BR>obstacle again.<P>Victims do nothing to personally motivate and inspire themselves, they<BR>don't<BR>like to "sweat", they never give a thought to the choices they make<BR>daily.<BR>Winners; however, make their own inspiration, perspiration, prayer, and<BR>right choices.<P>Victims love the attention of wallowing in self pity - winners love the<BR>recognition of accomplishments. Discipline is an ugly word to victims<BR>and<BR>the daily pursuit of goals for the winner.<BR>Adversity breaks victims - Winners use adversity to break records.<P>Which are you? If you recognize symptoms of the victim in you, you can<BR>change it - winners have learned to be winners. They weren't born that<BR>way.<BR>

Hi <P>Well...<P><B>LetSTry</B>,<P>Hey, I wasn't trying to make anyone feel "bad" for their words... just to temper it a bit and think about what you're writing... that it may hurt someone... but... CB has certainly painted a picture that makes me give this more thought... so, please don't feel bad, okay? <P><B>CB</B>,<P>Let's take the comment by Tina... which was short, <I>not</I> too sweet, and to the point: I found it a bit rude. Get over it, she says. Totally dismisses my feelings, as far as I can tell.<P>Now here you come, and you (quite eloquently, I might add) give the pros and cons and all that jazz, and frankly, I hear you. In fact, I think I'll just go ahead and agree -- TO A POINT. <P>Will you agree that bad-mouthing the OW re: her shortcomings (besides the moral ones, of course) makes you feel better but doesn't address the REAL ISSUES at hand? <P>Oh, and all you need to do is a search on me and you'll find out how *I* feel about the mental illness defense -- as in, I don't believe it -- at least nine times out of ten. Obviously, it does exist, but that crap about "I couldn't help it I was outta my mind" doesn't wash with me.<P>So, CB, I have respect for your opinion, although I CERTAINLY think that the Sumo link was WAY OVER THE LINE, but hey, if it makes you feel better, then go right ahead with my blessings... and yeah, I'll stay away if I see it's about the OW... But no luring me in by titling your posts with something like <I>What I like about new_beginning</I>, okay? <P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>(a bit worse for the wear, but hanging in there)<P><B>Life <I>is</I> difficult</B>.<BR><I>The Road Less Traveled</I><BR>~M. Scott Peck

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Originally posted by new_beginning:<BR>Will you agree that bad-mouthing the OW re: her shortcomings (besides the moral ones, of course) makes you feel better but doesn't address the REAL ISSUES at hand? <BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Grudgingly. <P>I wish that I could tell you that I didn't derive any satisfaction from my remarks about her...but I'm just not there yet! Hopefully one day soon, I will be. I'm working toward it. I am getting over (most) triggers a lot better than I used to - there was a point where H and I had the same fight every single day. That was too draining, and surprise, surprise, things were better when we just moved on. It's a process. (Keep smiling!) <P>Anyway, I have a fussy two-year-old on my hands, so I'm going to throw in the towel on this one. I appreciate the perspective, hon, I really do!<P>CB<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by Carolina Belle (edited March 27, 2001).]

Yeah, CB, it was nice sparring with you... and remember, it's not like I don't understand how it is to find the OW repugnant... oh, believe me, I do... <P>Have fun with your two year old... man, they grow up fast!!<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>(a bit worse for the wear, but hanging in there)<P><B>Life <I>is</I> difficult</B>.<BR><I>The Road Less Traveled</I><BR>~M. Scott Peck

Well, all I have to say is that if you venture to an OW board you will see that they seem to think that ALL wives are fat, lazy and sexless. If it makes people feel better to vent them so be it. I would hate to see this board become one of those PC boards where we have to be "understanding" to the plight of the unrepentant OP. No thanks.

Fairydust and anyone else still reading --<P>Let me give you another example, and maybe this will help to explain where I'm coming from:<P>My ex's OW#2 was a born-again Christian. Her choice. Not anything she was born into... <P>...that said...<P>+++++++++++<P>I went to meet her at a park near our home...and she brought her great big Bible. She was dressed like one of those Christian mommies you see... sundress, tennies and bobby sox... all sweet, doncha know.<P>She used her bestiest and sweetiest "Christianity voice" and told me that Jesus loved me AND her, and my then-H loved me, but he loved her too. She cried something that resembled real tears. She then began to "witness" to me, as if she had the right to talk about our Lord and my then-H in the same sentence, let alone the same lifetime. <P>++++++++++++<P>Now, I could go on and talk about how sickening I find Christians, because of that meeting. I could go into the verses she used, and how she held my hands, hugged me... all of it in Christ's name. Personally, I could've blasted her butt from that park straight to hell, but hey, who am I to judge her motives? <P>Would I offend Christian's on this board if I really went off on her. You bet!! Why? Because I would be mocking their religion, and assuming something that may or may not be true. Would I feel better? Yep, because I'm human, and to make someone else look worse than me (esp. since my spouse chose her over me) makes me feel better.<P>But what does it solve? Or rather, maybe I should ask... what DID it solve? It solved nothing... <P>By the way, I am a struggling Christian... and no, she didn't sour me from Christ forever... I just don't see that making someone else look bad so I look better helps anything.<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>(a bit worse for the wear, but hanging in there)<P><B>Life <I>is</I> difficult</B>.<BR><I>The Road Less Traveled</I><BR>~M. Scott Peck<p>[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited March 28, 2001).]

Throwing caution to the winds....my H's former OW was too dang gangly and skinny and blonde. <P>Ok, MB skinny blondes let me have it...<P>(oh, I'm blonde now...and losing weight...geez I can't win, I hate my own type, thank goodness, I'm not gangly )<P>Sheryl,<BR>I totally understand what you are saying...and some things are more hurtful than others. In a perfect world our appearance would be accepted no matter what. My H said he fell out of love with me because I was overweight and "not desirable". My weight was within normal limits on the charts. True, the top end of the chart, but normal.<P>"Fat" is used as a slam as well as a description. Like, blonde. I doubt this will disappear with a little sensitivty training, but you have full reason to express how you feel about it.<P>Love ya, Sheryl.<P> <BR><P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"Whatever is true, honorable, just, pure, lovely, gracious...think about these things." Phil 4:8

New Beginning,<P>This whole post reminds me of why I missed you so much!!<P>I agree with you, but let me state why in a little different way. Venting is one thing, but cruelty is another. The fact that you have been mistreated by a spouse does not "entitle" you to be unkind or uncaring. Spewing out a lot of hurtful stereotypical comments and then saying "I didn't mean to offend anyone" is like firing a gun randomly and saying "I didn't intend to shoot anyone".<BR>You might not have meant to do it, but you sure didn't care enough not to do it.<P>We have all discussed weight here enough to know that in many cases the OP IS younger, thinner, firmer, etc., etc. That's why comments about being fat, unattractive, old, etc., are so damaging. Our self-esteem has already been pretty well trashed by the fact that our husbands CHOSE to have an affair with another woman, so we are really sensitive to anything that makes us feel worse about ourselves.<P>Another thing that I often wonder about..... How does it help to point out how horrible and trashy the OP is? Doesn't that say something pretty unflattering about your spouse and the choice that they made, even temporarily? It is difficult for me to understand how a BS can go on and on about how horrible the OP is, all the while ignoring or excusing the fact that their SPOUSE is the one who betrayed them. At least I haven't READ of any cases of forced adultery at gunpoint.....<P>Peppermint

Howdy Hey <B>Lor</B>!! <P>Well, since David's OW were of all shapes and sizes, religious affiliations, and temperments... hmmm... I guess I could put them all together and make one big OW that fit it all... and she would look like me, or you, or anyone... because... as crappy as all this is, these OW (as well as our spouses, and US, for crying-out-loud) have made some HORRIBLE mistakes and are (dare I say it?) HUMAN. Icky humans, but human, nonetheless... and I include myself in that group... I have been icky.<P>Ah, dear sweet <B>Peppermint</B>,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by peppermint:<BR><B> Venting is one thing, but cruelty is another. The fact that you have been mistreated by a spouse does not "entitle" you to be unkind or uncaring. Spewing out a lot of hurtful stereotypical comments and then saying "I didn't mean to offend anyone" is like firing a gun randomly and saying "I didn't intend to shoot anyone".</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Man, this is better than my little OW example!! I love it!! Thank you!! <P><B>Friends</B>,<P>I am here, just hanging out, trying to learn some stuff, go forward in my life without hurting anyone, and dig deep into my soul for answers to life's questions -- mostly, truth be told, they are **MY** questions. I am not one to judge anyone... I have been on every single side of infidelity, and some would say that I am there now, as I write this. It's a long, long story and the link is on Susan's reply on this thread if you're interested. All I know for sure is this: I am so very tired of hurting, and of hurting others. My marriage made me happy, sad, livid, sick... and everything in between... we all just need some peace... there is one person who ends her posts with something like, "I just want to sit in the garden in peace"... that's how I feel too. <P><P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>(a bit worse for the wear, but hanging in there)<P><B>Life <I>is</I> difficult</B>.<BR><I>The Road Less Traveled</I><BR>~M. Scott Peck

Peppermint...you said what I was thinking and afraid to post.

Bonnie,<P>Why were you afraid to post? One thing around here... you really **are** safe.<P>Lord knows I've said some things that are pretty shocking, and people still seem to like me okay -- well, most of 'em, anyhow <P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>(a bit worse for the wear, but hanging in there)<P><B>Life <I>is</I> difficult</B>.<BR><I>The Road Less Traveled</I><BR>~M. Scott Peck