<BR>Now, I could go on and talk about how sickening I find Christians, because of that meeting. >>><P>I consider myself a Christian (though I'm definitely not a zealot) and I wouldn't be offended in the least by bashing the OW for her supposed Christian behavior. But it wouldn't make sense to bash all Christians for that. I don't think anyone here was bashing all fat people, just their particular OW.

New Beginning..it's just that I'd read those comments about the OW and to be honest....I thought "oh my gosh! She sounds awful!" and then I'd think "what kind of a man are they married to that would even take a second look at the OW, or...do they look just as awful?" I was afraid to post that because it's putting some of the blame back on the OM also.

Peppermint,<P>I'd like to take you back about six months to a post that I did (shortly after D-Day 2) - tell me if these words ring a bell:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>After all the time you have spent on this site, I'm sure nobody has to tell you about lovebusters. And girl, these are definitely LOVEBUSTERS!<P>HOWEVER, I have to agree with Dylan. They are prize-winning lovebusters!! I thought that I had been somewhat harsh until I read your comebacks. You are hilarious!!<P>I understand your point. You want to make some sense of the choice he made. You know logically that you are superior to the other woman in nearly every way, but your husband still chose to be with her. I felt the same confusion for a long time.<P>Belle, sometimes you just have to bite your tongue and not say those things to your husband. But feel free to tell them to us, we LOVE hearing this kind of thing about the other woman!!!<P>Peppermint<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I was a far more angry in that post from last year than I was in this one from this week, yet then I was "hilarious," and now I'm "cruel, unkind, and uncaring". That doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.<P>Yes, it does take two to tango. But like I said earlier, I took a vow before God to love, honor, and keep my husband, until death do us part. I made <B>no</B> such promises to the OW. You'd better believe that my husband heard about what I thought about his cheating - I ended up leaving him when I found out what had happened. But he wanted to make the marriage work - he stopped going out to the bars, he cut off all contact with the OW, he even cut off all contact with his former best friend (another alcoholic) who introduced him to the OW so that he wouldn't have to be put into the situation again. Sure, I know he betrayed me, but I took a vow, and he took the steps to ensure that I wouldn't have to worry about him and the OW again.<P>On the other hand, this "woman" would call my house to harrass my family after H kicked her to the curb, called my two-year-old son a "[censored] who would end up a loser just like his parents," and after eight months, still feels that she has to give my family hell. If you ask me, she got off pretty damn easy Saturday night. But hey, as long as I don't have to deal with her again, I've said my peace...I can turn a page and move on. <P>Peppermint, I am sorry about all of the hurt that you've had to endure. Remember, that is a common bond that all of us have. But the endless skepticism over one's motives is really unnecessary <I>here</I>, of all places. I <I>was</I> genuine in my apology to NB. I truly did not think that they would bother her, or you, or anybody else because <B>they were not directed at any of you.</B> I expected my remarks to be taken with a grain of salt. I forgot how insecure BS's can get over certain things (present company included). I did not intend to offend any of you. I absolutely, 100% hoped to offend her. I'm not making excuses for it - I'm petty where she is concerned. <P>And before anybody else jumps in here and gets long-winded about how it's not going to change anything to "trash" her, I know that, already. It's not going to do any good - nothing anybody says will change my opinion of the OW. Look at it like this:<P>I'm a smoker. I know that it's bad for my health, but I enjoy it. You can show me all of the Surgeon General warnings you want, you can show me pictures of dead smoker's clogged lungs - I'm still not going to quit. <P>I'm not going to change who I am. I'm not going to try and develop a more "conventional" sense of humor. You're welcome to give me your opinion - I can certainly appreciate that. But just because I see things differently does not give anybody the right to talk down to me.<p>[This message has been edited by Carolina Belle (edited March 28, 2001).]

<P><<<Another thing that I often wonder about..... How does it help to point out how horrible and trashy the OP is? Doesn't that say something pretty unflattering about your spouse and the choice that they made, even temporarily?>>><P>H's OW was a slutty, white trash piece of garbage who went out of her way to try and ruyin my life when he kicked her a-- to the curb. Nothing about my H's behavior during the time of the A was flattering. Let's see - binge drinking, drugs, bar hopping, ADULTERY, the list goes on and on. He even said to me "I am disgusted at myself for what I have done. I acted like a total scumbag." Yep, right on the money.<P><< It is difficult for me to understand how a BS can go on and on about how horrible the OP is, all the while ignoring or excusing the fact that their SPOUSE is the one who betrayed them.>>><P>Who ignores or excuses it? Certainly not me. He WAS being a horrible person, he did HORRIBLE things and he admits that. He betrayed our vows and our marriage and he is guilty of that. She is guilty of being a rotten person who doesn't care about anyone but herself. He has shown remorse and has gone out of his way to make up for his wrongdoings. If she would have just crawled back under the rock she came out of when the A was over I would have just let it be. Of course she couldn't do that. The only thing she is sorry for is that she got dumped. She tried to make my life a living hell and wouldn't leave us alone. She said horrible things to me and I never did a thing to her. Just like she felt she owed me no kindness I owe her none either.

<B>fairydust</B>,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fairydust:<BR><B><BR>I consider myself a Christian (though I'm definitely not a zealot) and I wouldn't be offended in the least by bashing the OW for her supposed Christian behavior. But it wouldn't make sense to bash all Christians for that. I don't think anyone here was bashing all fat people, just their particular OW.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>But... it isn't the **behavior** being bashed... it's the details. In my original post, I spoke of specific remarks - "I thought there was an earthquake" and the like... if someone said, "the OW was very overweight and I can't stand that my H finds her attractive"... that's a far cry from... "The OW is a fat pig with brown lipstick, or was that gravy, blah, blah, blah". It's the name-calling, cruel remarks, and judgements about something that <B>so many of <I>us</I></B> struggle with on a daily basis. <P><B>Bonnie</B>,<P>Well... don't ever worry. <P>I've gotten to the point where unless it's gonna hurt someone, my feelings are valid... and if I want to write them, I will. <P>I'm sorry, by the way, for your continued pain.<BR><P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>(a bit worse for the wear, but hanging in there)<P><B>Life <I>is</I> difficult</B>.<BR><I>The Road Less Traveled</I><BR>~M. Scott Peck

Hi again, CB,<P>Hey, as I told you yesterday... or was it this morning (I'm over 40, what can I say?)...<P>Just as you stand by your feelings, I do the same with mine...<P>You know for a fact that if someone said, as fairydust mentioned on this thread already, that the wife of the OM was a fat lazy cow, we'd all hear about how cruel that was.<P>Look, my point in the beginning of this thread was to discuss how name-calling **might** hurt some of us. I have been overweight most of my life, and I get riled up when I see those thoughless remarks that some would find funny. As I said, those remarks were not about me personally... just as the remarks made about fat wives isn't about any wives in particular here... but dammit, I **was** a fat wife during my H's three early affairs, and I hated myself enough... I don't need to be reading that kind of stuff.<P>So, if I know ahead of time that it will be a thread full of name-calling and venting... hey, I'll stay away. <P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>(a bit worse for the wear, but hanging in there)<P><B>Life <I>is</I> difficult</B>.<BR><I>The Road Less Traveled</I><BR>~M. Scott Peck

This is interesting.<P>I am 5'7" and weigh 235. I have a womanly shape. Yeah, to some I am fat. So what? I see women/wives here share their sizes, and often it's around 5'4" at 110 pounds, and those kinds of numbers. It's always when describing how fat the OW is. "What did he see in her, I'm healthy and look good, I'm 5'4" and wiegh 110." <P>If it makes Carolina Belle feel better to make fun of the OW's body, so what. I read that thread, and there were many there who did the same. Just know that when you do that, you might offend some. It's the chance you take. You know that. Oh well. <P>Plus, in the world of karma, you might just gain a bunch of weight yourself. Then you'll understand.<P>Oh, and I guess I am the one with the sig line you liked, new_beginning. <P>------------------<BR>I just want to sit in the garden in peace~~<P>*Statue*<p>[This message has been edited by Statue (edited March 28, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Statue:<BR><B><BR>Plus, in the world of karma, you might just gain a bunch of weight yourself. Then you'll understand.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Ah yes, blessed Karma! <P>I've actually talked about this before. I had a friend who cheated with a married man. She was divorced at the time, they became "friends" and she swore, SWORE I tell ya, that it would go no further. She ended up marrying (and later divorcing) him. I chuckled to myself... that's what she got, I reasoned. How soon afterward did I have an affair? About a year... and yes, I did go back to her and apologize for my actions. I didn't treat her with kindness, because my then-H had had several affairs by that time and I had NO TIME for OW. Had I treated her with love instead of judgement... who knows what might have happened...<P>Just a thought...<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>(a bit worse for the wear, but hanging in there)<P><B>Life <I>is</I> difficult</B>.<BR><I>The Road Less Traveled</I><BR>~M. Scott Peck

I'll certainly support the right of anyone who wants to use ugly words to vent. I usually skip those posts though.<P>Personally, I try not to describe others harshly. Not sure I can explain why or how, but somehow it damages my heart and soul to demean others. Maybe others do not find that true, but I do.<P>Guess that sounds sappy, huh?<P>Kathi<BR>

Fairydust - I am exactly where you are. Thank you, thank you, thank you for the explanation - I'm in the exact same boat. If she would let it be, so would I. <P><BR>NB - Hey, I'm 21 and I'm having the same problem (Harrison Ford said it perfectly - "it isn't the age, it's the mileage). <P>It's fine, really. Like I always say, if two people agree on everything, then one of them isn't necessary. I can respect other opinions, I just don't like it when people try to cram it down my throat and say "this way is the only right way!" I will stand up for my point of view 100%, but I'm not so closed-minded that I can't at least listen to others (I think that you're probably the same way). As the only democrat amongst a group of engineers here at work, I've learned how to make my voice heard. <P>Bonnie - The main attraction between H and OW was alcohol, but we were having a lot of problems at that point in the marriage as well (check out my summer posts). That certainly doesn't justify it, but I understand where he was coming from. Eventually he felt so "trapped" that he resented everything about me. I'm extremely high-maintenance - I get the nails done every 2 weeks, foil highlights, makeup, waxing, tanning, etc. I admit that I am very superficial as far as <I>my</I> appearance is concerned. I guess a part of him wanted to knock me off of my high horse, so to speak. I guess it did a little bit, but I think it made him look a hell of a lot worse than me. I don't know, it's in the past, so his motives don't matter to me anymore.

Hi <B>Kathi</B>,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kam6318:<BR><B>I'll certainly support the right of anyone who wants to use ugly words to vent. I usually skip those posts though.<P>Personally, I try not to describe others harshly. Not sure I can explain why or how, but somehow it damages my heart and soul to demean others. Maybe others do not find that true, but I do.<P>Guess that sounds sappy, huh?<P>Kathi</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Oh yeah... and I LIKE sappy...<P>And maybe that's what I was clumsily trying to say in the first place...<P>Thank you for saying it so eloquently (sp?) <P><BR>Hi again <B>CB</B>, <P>We were writing at the same time! <P>Yes, we both can agree to disagree on this one!! <P>You're only 21... sigh... oh, to be 21 again... but I digress... <P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>(a bit worse for the wear, but hanging in there)<P><B>Life <I>is</I> difficult</B>.<BR><I>The Road Less Traveled</I><BR>~M. Scott Peck<P><p>[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited March 28, 2001).]

I think the reason why we BS's attack the OW with the over weight issue is because we know it hurts in some sick way. We all know that being betrayed hurts tons......how can we get back at the OP??? We can vent and call them names. Personnally I haven't seen OW but once-back when it all started and I wolk her up....she has hidden all other times....WS's are called all kinds of names because they have HELPED wreck our marriages. OP's are not selected for sexual reasons most of the time but because the WS is starving in some way-Think about you are on a desert island and someone gives you moldy cheese-you will eat anything and all of it no matter how much mold is on it-I think an affair occurs this way. WS's are so busy eating the moldy cheese they don't see the shipped that is behind them and is willing to take them to land where they can eat whatever (was food the right thing to talk about???) ANyways I hope all get my point.....part of the whole learning process is learning to express your point of view or to step on toes...or just hang out in the middle....

It seems that the real question here is about the practice of insulting OPs. Like Sheryl I classify myself as a struggling Christian. Is there any other kind? There is, after all, a reason He had to die for us.<P>If we were perfect, we'd never put anyone down to make ourselves feel better. Even so, I've done some of the OP bashing myself. It seems to me that if it helps people get things out of their system by venting at the OP rather than their spouse the practice may be more helpful than harmful. However, at some point, if it is continued, venting like that will keep a person angry and bitter. In CB's case it looks like she is in the category of venting to get it out of her system, so that she can move on. I don't think that is such a bad thing.<P>As for Sheryl's reaction, I understand why some say "don't be so sensitive". However, it's clear that for some the fat comments are a trigger almost as painful as the triggers relating to our spouse's infidelity are for others of us. The truth is there will be many here who can apply any insult directed at an OP to themselves. There is no characteristic we can make fun of that won't be true of many of us.<P>Given that fact, the only way to avoid offending some would seem to be a moratorium on insulting OPs. I don't think that is going to happen. I see value both in having a safe place to vent and in keeping this place one where those who come for help won't feel insulted or uncomfortable. Unfortunately, I don't have any great solutions. The best suggestion I can come up with is to give a little warning, either in the title or in a preface to a post, so that those likely to be offended can avoid it.<P>I suppose the best outcome would be for all of us to become more sensitive to the effects on others of what we say, yet without starting to feel like we have to walk on eggshells.<BR>A difficult balancing act, but one worth attempting.<P>Steve<BR>

I decided long ago to agree to disagree!<P>Carolina Belle,<P>I didn't know you were the person who wrote the comments NB was referring to. I long ago decided it best for me to skip your posts. When you first came here, I thought your posts WERE funny, and I read them and tried to offer you support. Maybe I have evolved since then, but after hearing about the OW's weight for the hundredth time, it wore thin. <P>fairydust,<P>And your point is? Perhaps that I don't have the right to express that I don't understand something, or to offer an opinion that is different from yours. But then, we've had this discussion before, haven't we? I don't find it necessary to go over that again.<P>Yeah, we're ALL in pain and we all have infidelity in common. We all have different ways to deal with it. If it helps ANYONE feel better to be offensive, have at it. Just don't be surprised when some people are offended, and don't be surprised that some people SAY they are offended. And most of all, don't try to justify bad personal behaviors by saying that it "makes me feel better". That sounds like the same lame excuse I heard from my husband, and I didn't buy it then either.<P>Peppermint<P>

Boy, my head is hurting from all this reading today!! <P><B>Trs</B>,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I think the reason why we BS's attack the OW with the over weight issue is because we know it hurts in some sick way. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, but who? If you want to call the OW a fat cow to her face, then it's your beeswax... and yes, I guarantee, it **will** hurt.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>OP's are not selected for sexual reasons most of the time but because the WS is starving in some way-Think about you are on a desert island and someone gives you moldy cheese-you will eat anything and all of it no matter how much mold is on it-I think an affair occurs this way. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR>Oh boy, I can sink my teeth into this one! Pun intended!! Trs,I had an affair, and wrong as it was (and it WAS, make no mistake!!) the man I had an affair with was NOT some moldy substitute for my then-H. I keep going back to this... affairs happen because a NEED is NOT BEING MET by the spouse. That includes the FIVE affairs my ex-H had. I have to look at ME, at what **I** did or did not do to meet his needs. The women he chose were not pigs... not even ONE of them... they were HURTING AND MORALLY BANKRUPT, as I was when I had an affair. <P>Hey, <B>StillHers</B>,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Like Sheryl I classify myself as a struggling Christian. Is there any other kind? There is, after all, a reason He had to die for us.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You know what Steve? I've met a few who really don't seem to struggle with their faith and their daily choices. Have you ever met one or two of those? I find it frustrating and scary that I can't seem to grasp anything but the hem of His robe lately... and I know that's "enough" but it sure doesn't feel like it!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If we were perfect, we'd never put anyone down to make ourselves feel better. Even so, I've done some of the OP bashing myself. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, {hangin head} me too! And I was WRONG.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>However, it's clear that for some the fat comments are a trigger almost as painful as the triggers relating to our spouse's infidelity are for others of us. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>YES, YES, YES!!!!!!! I could tell a story here, but I won't (thankful applause from the masses).<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> The best suggestion I can come up with is to give a little warning, either in the title or in a preface to a post, so that those likely to be offended can avoid it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, good idea!<P>Gosh, <B>peppermint</B>,<P>I have ALWAYS appreciated your comments so much!! You've been around with me from the beginning... and you've always been wonderfully kind... I just wanted to tell you that!! You will always be, sweet Peppermint to me! <P><P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>(a bit worse for the wear, but hanging in there)<P><B>Life <I>is</I> difficult</B>.<BR><I>The Road Less Traveled</I><BR>~M. Scott Peck

NB,<P>Thank you. You are the second person on the boards today to refer to me as "sweet". I don't know that I agree with that assessment, but I do try !<P>I'll continue to check this post, hoping that the story you COULD tell will find its way in this thread. I've got to agree that we have been here for seemingly a long time, but I still like it here most of the time, and it still helps to visit once in a while.<P>I also have to say that getting to "know" people on this board who have been WS's has made me think of the OW in our case much differently. I never think of you and many others as wayward, only as cyber friends. The OW in our marriage has done some really bad things to me and my family, and certainly I have made comments about her bad bleach job (it's true), her anorexia (also true), and her repeated affairs (ditto). So I could have offended someone who has those same problems.<P>Anyway, thanks for the nice thoughts. YOU ARE A JEWEL. One that I have missed for many months.<P>Peppermint

OK, can't let Sheryl go it alone....I have indeed carried rage and ill feeling about OM, I just rarely express it. The reason?? It doesn't do anything to help him realize what a low-life he is, it didn't stop him from pursuing my W and it didn't change my W's behavior.<P>Long ago on these forums, I noticed a peculiar phenomenon. BS's came on her bashed the living dickens out of the OP while portraying the WS's as weak, easily influenced people who were obviously seduced by the OP or zapped with some mind-numbing ray gun. This is quite simply, rationalization on the part of the BS. I will always see it this way. There are indeed some WS's who due to extreme stress or mental illness were indeed influenced by persuasive OP. But this sure isn't the majority of cases.<P>The bottom line to this is that the WS makes a clear, obvious choice to have an affair. No one puts a gun to their heads. They are the ones betraying the marriage, NOT the OP. The OP didn't vow to you NOT to have sex with your spouse. The OP didn't promise fidelity, exclusivity or not to hurt your feelings. The WS did all of those things and then chose to ignore their promises.<P>That is not meaning to say the the OPs are all a terrific class of people. Some are scumbags, but some are just as good as your WS, just as confused and just as much in the fog.<P>A once-in-a-while bashing of the OP is great stress relief. But the posters who do this continually are either attempting to rationalize the WS's behavior to something less extreme than it really was, or trying to exorcise their own demons of insecurity and feelings of inferiority.<P>Someone here already made a great point. If you completely degrade and demean the OP to extreme levels, what does that say about your WS's tastes? How does that reflect on their original choice of the BS as a marriage partner? Sorry, you can't go on and on about how fat, ugly, stupid, mean, insensitive and so on, the OP is and reflecting on your WS's choice of that person without creating some question as to whether the BS does indeed fit some of those same characteristics. After all, many unhappy people keep choosing the same mate types over and over again.<P>All I am saying is be very careful about what you say about the OP over the long haul. It does truly reflect on you. Venting is OK, a mantra kinda oversteps the bounds. Keep the focus on you and your spouse to maximize the chances of recovery. Anything less makes success less likely. Keep the OP out as much as possible.<P>my 1-1/4 cents...(after inflation)<P>--DeWayne--

Oh <B>Peppermint</B>, it's so true, and you're welcome! By the by, I'm telling the story below...<P>Lookie everyone, it's <B>DeWayne</B> <P>Thanks for your after-inflation views, my dear man! <P>You know what this reminds me of? Remember that post I wrote right after David's last boink with the church lady? It was called, "Not all OP are pieces of trash"... I *think* it's among the Notable Posts... under Miscellaneous (my dyslexia is showing, good grief!!).<P>~~~~~~~~~~~~~<P>Anyhow, <B>the story</B> about fat vs. infidelity pain...I hesitate only because if, by some freaky chance, the man or woman posted here, it would be completely obvious who I am... oh, well... I am 4000 miles away from them now... so, for the die-hard listener, I submit the following:<P>David and I had been married 14 years and had just moved 100 miles away from his two (at that time) other women. I had no car, three kids, and lived pretty much by myself during the week so that he could keep his job. I worried day and night that he was still with one particular OW, but my fears were put on hold when yet ANOTHER OW came into the picture. <P>David had just had a vasectomy... and I somehow became pregnant anyway *found out it isn't that abnormal, sorry to share that one*. So, I was pregnant, with three kids, alone and getting fatter by the minute. <P>I met a really nice (NOT, but didn't know it then) couple next door. Long story short, I latched on to her for my emotional needs, and her H somewhat too. Turns out he was beating her, and I took her to the hospital. As often happens, she went back to him and then they both hated me. <P>I lost the baby... partly due to stress, partly to the pain I still suffered from the infidelity, partly because I was not healthy, and possibly the baby wasn't either. <P>One night as I was taking out the trash I overheard the neighbors H call me "a fat pig without a brain in my head"... she was silent... and then she said, "I know"...and it LITERALLY brought me to the ground in tears. I'd lost everything, and was a fat loser. It took me months, no YEARS to get beyond that pain. <P>It happened 7 yrs. ago and I remember it like it was yesterday.<P>Pain is pain is pain, folks. <P><BR>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>(a bit worse for the wear, but hanging in there)<P><B>Life <I>is</I> difficult</B>.<BR><I>The Road Less Traveled</I><BR>~M. Scott Peck<P><B><I>BY THE WAY -- SINCE I OBVIOUSLY HAVE NO OUTSIDE LIFE AT THIS MOMENT, I WENT AHEAD AND FOUND THE NOTABLE POSTS PAGE, AND YES, THE "OP" POST IS ON IT, TOWARD THE BOTTOM. HERE'S THE LINK. <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000554.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000554.html</A> </I></B><p>[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited March 28, 2001).]

Carolina Belle? It's more like Carolina *****. But then everybody knows how fake southern women are.<P>You are so phony. You're as fake as Pamela Anderson, so the fake boobs are a nice touch. If you strip away all of the attitude and makeup, all you have is a $8/hour receptionist with a Wonderbra.<P>Tom is even more of a loser. You two primadonnas deserve each other. The only intelligence that man has ever shown is when he cheated on you. You're probably too worried that you'll break a nail to be good in bed. Who can blame him for wanting a break from you and that bratty son of yours?<P>You constantly have to be the center of attention. You cry to all of these people about how Tom cheated on you, but then you flirt with everybody at work. The only person that you care about is yourself. I hope that your marriage continues it's decline. No one deserves it more than you. Maybe I'll even get a piece of Tom if he's into big women like you say he is.

Oh <B>Flygirl</B>,<P>This is your first post... so you came here just for this?<P>I am assuming that you have invaded Carolina Belle's **safe place** for one reason only. I hope and PRAY that she doesn't check in on here... this is the most horrible thing I have EVER read on MarriageBuilders.<P>You have also invaded MY safe place... my solice... where *I* go to find a kind shoulder...<P>If you need to talk about YOUR marriage, you've come to the right place. We will be there for you, and we will help you. But this is just mean!!<P>I am sorry for your obvious pain, Flygirl. <P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>(a bit worse for the wear, but hanging in there)<P><B>Life <I>is</I> difficult</B>.<BR><I>The Road Less Traveled</I><BR>~M. Scott Peck