Nb your a strong woman who has been thru alot with your H... I wish I gave us freedom-I didn't....I have alot of close friends who have been in your shoes and are the most strongest beautiful women in the world...you sing-not because your not a perfect weight but because you have beauty inside and you need to let it out....You posted a very good thread...I don't have thick skin, I wouldn't bawl everynight if I did...your H never deserved you..you have given this immature little spoiled brat some words of wisdom-can you call OW for me and give her an earful? I defend fairydust not only because I agree with her but because she has always helped me out....Heartpain-please go back to my posts on this subject regarding that it is not good to continully vent on the op. We all got the welcome thread and I think I am using it correctly-please look at all my posts they will speak for me...I was not in the army so please do not accuse me of holding a weapon and participating in "friendly fire"I see I have hit a nerve with you and did not mean to, I think we are aloud to vent in different ways about the OP-I have tried to do my own by writing it on paper instead of posting it but I think there are times when we need to vent and the support system here helps some of us get thru the venting, I don't want anyone to lsoe that priviledge-I hope I have compassion enought to listen to their vent and find out the real reason behind the name calling, people WS's, BS's and OP's all need to feel welcomed ... I think we all need to sit around a cheesecake and just jabber!!!!I'm done.....I like wine with my cheesecake....<p>[This message has been edited by Trs (edited March 29, 2001).]

Oh <B>Lor, CB, and DeWayne</B>!! My gosh, the Wonderjock... tee hee... and then find me a Wondersaddlebags for these thighs of mine! <P>I'll let Trs write back to your post DeWayne, if she chooses...<P>But thanks for your support. Platonic hugs to you, my man!!<P>My goodness <B>Trs</B>,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Trs:<BR><B>Nb your a strong woman who has been thru alot with your H... I wish I gave us freedom-I didn't....I have alot of close friends who have been in your shoes and are the most strongest beautiful women in the world...you sing-not because your not a perfect weight but because you have beauty inside and you need to let it out....You posted a very good thread...I don't have thick skin, I wouldn't bawl everynight if I did...your H never deserved you..you have given this immature little spoiled brat some words of wisdom-can you call OW for me and give her an earful? I defend fairydust not only because I agree with her but because she has always helped me out....I think we all need to sit around a cheesecake and just jabber!!!!I'm done.....I like wine with my cheesecake....</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Thank you for your kind words. Yes, I went through alot, but no more than many here... plus, I added to the pain and ultimately the end of my marriage by having an affair myself -- BIG MISTAKE -- so don't look to me for the handbook on what to do! <P>I agree about the cheesecake... but maybe it should be carrots and celery -- I'm on a diet! <P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>(a bit worse for the wear, but hanging in there)<P><B>Life <I>is</I> difficult</B>.<BR><I>The Road Less Traveled</I><BR>~M. Scott Peck<p>[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited March 29, 2001).]

NB-I edited my message the same time you were writing a response-I really don;t know which service did the friendly fire though......SORRY!!! Who came up with friendly fire??? Anyways good thread-I need to get back to work!!!!

<B>OH MY GOD!!!!!</B><P>I'm sorry, I'm going to take you off this subject just a little bit. Another friend of mine saw this war going on in here and sent me this via e-mail. Kay, you are the queen, honey! <P>The Joys of Womanhood<P>One of life's mysteries is how a 2 pound box of candy can make a woman gain 5 lbs.<P>My mind not only wanders, it sometime leaves completely.<P>The best way to forget all your troubles is to wear tight shoes.<P>The nice part about living in a small town is that when you don't know what you're doing, someone else does.<P>The older you get, the tougher it is to lose weight because by then, your body and your fat are really good friends.<P>Just when I was getting used to yesterday, along came today.<P>Sometimes I think I understand everything, then I regain consciousness.<P>I gave up jogging for my health when my thighs kept rubbing together and setting my pantyhose on fire.<P>Amazing! You hang something in your closet for awhile and it shrinks two sizes!<P>Skinny people irritate me! Especially when they say things like, "You know, sometimes I just forget to eat."<BR>Now I've forgotten my address, my mother's maiden name, and my keys. But I've never forgotten to eat. You have to be a special kind of stupid to forget to eat.<P>A friend of mine confused her valium with her birth control pills. She had 14 kids, but she doesn't really care.<BR> <BR>The trouble with some women is that they get all excited about nothing and then they marry him.<P>I read this article that said the typical symptoms of stress are: eating too much, impulse buying, and driving too fast. Are they kidding? That is my idea of a perfect day.<P>I know what Victoria's Secret is. The secret is that nobody older than 30 can fit into their stuff.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Carolina Belle:<BR><B><BR>The trouble with some women is that they get all excited about nothing and then they marry him.<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>We need a new thread for THIS one! <P>And so, dear friends, comes the end (I think, unless someone else chimes in with something--which is fine, mind you) of one heck of a thread!<P>Thank you everyone!!<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>(a bit worse for the wear, but hanging in there)<P><B>Life <I>is</I> difficult</B>.<BR><I>The Road Less Traveled</I><BR>~M. Scott Peck<p>[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited March 29, 2001).]

Dear New Be<BR>I work with some very heavy women and I think that I am very accepting and tolerant. But I work with young people and it is painful to see an increasing percentage (every year) that are clearly obese. <BR>Of course, ridicule is a terrible way to deal with it.<BR>My W is 5' 7" and used to weigh in at 130--well, it saddens me that she has begun to put on a fair amount of weight. She rarely walks with me anymore and will never ride bicycle. She complains about the seat, but won't let me experiment with adjustments or different seats.<BR>Remember that our society makes it easier for MANY people to gain weight and that many people who might ridicule heavy folks are expressing anger that they aren't as slim as they would like to be. <BR>Though I don't know you, I would want to accept you--but certainly would support any effort that you might make to move toward a healthier weight. <BR>R

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by roger:<BR><B>I work with some very heavy women and I think that I am very accepting and tolerant. But I work with young people and it is painful to see an increasing percentage (every year) that are clearly obese.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><P>Oh yes, I agree about the increasing number of overweight people. We're (American's that is) a GREEDY nation and eat WAY MORE than we need -- me included.<BR> <BR><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>My W is 5' 7" and used to weigh in at 130--well, it saddens me that she has begun to put on a fair amount of weight. She rarely walks with me anymore and will never ride bicycle. She complains about the seat, but won't let me experiment with adjustments or different seats.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well... was it baby weight, or depression weight, or ?? What do you think the problem might be? For me, it was a bunch of stuff, that really hasn't been addressed in this thread (I was sticking purely to the vocalizing of *rude* remarks). I was sexually abused, and I have come to believe that I gained weight to protect myself -- but that's a whole other matter which would take a WHOLE other thread! <P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Though I don't know you, I would want to accept you--but certainly would support any effort that you might make to move toward a healthier weight. <BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Thank you. Actually, my ex-H was very understanding about my weight. He had his problems, obviously, but he always told me I was beautiful, no matter what my size -- and I fluctuated between 135 and 300 pounds. I am **somewhere ** in between at this moment.<P>I am in another relationship right now, and all I will say about that is that he thinks I look great also... so, although this is a "heavy" subject for me, I am working to a healthier relationship with my body.<P><BR>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>(a bit worse for the wear, but hanging in there)<P><B>Life <I>is</I> difficult</B>.<BR><I>The Road Less Traveled</I><BR>~M. Scott Peck<BR><p>[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited March 29, 2001).]

<P><<<Fairydust had a post last year that discussed OW being "whores". Oh yeah, that's really going to get a H back.>>><P>Okay I had to respond to this. My H knows exactly what I think of OW, could care less, thinks I have every right to my opinion and we have been in SUCCESSFUL recovery for 2 years now. As a matter of fact since she chose to harass us continually for months and try to make our lives a living hell his opinion of her isn't exactly too high either.<P><<If the OW is a "whore", doesn't that make the WS a "john". In the normal world, "johns" are looked down on almost as much as the "whores".>>><P>When my H was having his A he was just as low a life form, if not even lower than the OW. He is the first to admit this. The difference of course is that he is sorry for his actions.<P>>>My point earlier was that the posters here who have the most vitriol, hatred and name-calling of the OP seem to be the ones to give the WS a free ride and not force them to take responsibility for what they have done.>>><P>ROFL. There is no way in hell that my H got off easy or was released from his responsibility in ANY way. He accepts full responsibility for his actions and believe me, he has been made accountable. That subject just doesn't seem to come up as often. He was nowhere close to getting a "free ride". I have every right to hate the OW just for the things she did to me AFTER the A was over. She said horrible, evil things to me, harassed me for months, etc. If she would have just left me alone I probably wouldn't feel this way.<P>

<B>Fairydust</B> OK - I'm sufficiently chastised now...You may be an exception, but it really seems to be a familiar mantra by many, many people here..."Oh, my poor, poor spouse, seduced by the evil OP". I've seen this more times than I care to count. People in their misery forget that adultery is a <I>choice</I>. They want to let their spouse off the hook and heap most of the blame on the OP. This is a fog just as bad as the one a WS is in. I believe that after discovery, BS's are often deep in their own fog and that is definitely a barrier to recovery.<P>I'm so very glad that you are in a SUCCESSFUL RECOVERY. And I'm also glad that your husband is accepting of your opinions of the OW. That is really healthy. However, there are a lot of BSs on this board who can create lots and lots of problems for potential recovery by going off on OP alone. As long as they are aware of the roadblocks they might erect, then go for it...<P>I didn't mean to single you out on this, it's just that your thread was a good example of the "name-calling".<P>Continued good luck to you and your H....

Ok, I don't have any comments about this thread! <P>Just wanted to say "HEY!" to DeWayne and Sheryl! <P>Mitzi

I have some final thoughts: <P>There are a few of us who will ALWAYS be offended by remarks that specifically target areas of weakness in US. <P>In my life, wieght has been an issue. Possibly it's because I was sexually abused at 9 yrs. old. I was the typical abused personality, sleeping around as an older teen, getting fat, then thin, fat, then thin... I got married, and continued the body-dysmorphia throughout my marriage -- always, I believe, in an attempt to protect myself. Unless you have been in my shoes, you WILL NOT understand.<P>I have had OW in my life. I hate them all. I never said that you shouldn't hate them, loathe them, find them repugnant. But HOW THEY LOOK has no bearing WHATSOEVER on who they are. <P>I was an OW. As I mentioned above somewhere, the girlfriend of the OM wrote me emails and called me fat and ugly -- I was fat, I don't think I'm ugly, but hey, I understood where she was coming from. But it hurt, nonetheless.<P>When she confronted me (over IM) I was apologetic, said I'd never go near her H (she called him that, it was common-law, and I respected her feelings) and told her a little of what I was going through myself (cancer scare, OW in my marriage). Did she understand? She "seemed" to. Did she care? Probably not. Does it matter if she's out there saying her H boinked a fat ugly pig? No, I guess not. But my body size had nothing to do with why this OM chose to have an affair with me, just as how he looked had nothing to do with my affair with him. WE MET A NEED in each other. IT WAS WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, which is why I ended it after one hop in the sack and confessed to my then-H that night.<P>Ladies and Gentlemen, life can suck a big one. Infidelity is a ride I wouldn't wish on anyone -- and I am as sorry as ANY ONE OF YOU HERE for the way it insidiously entered MY LIFE. <P>I sincerely wish each and every one of you peace and healed marriages!<BR><P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>(a bit worse for the wear, but hanging in there)<P><B>Life <I>is</I> difficult</B>.<BR><I>The Road Less Traveled</I><BR>~M. Scott Peck

Yikes, what a thread!!!!!!!<BR>I am just going to stand by the sofa, toast y'all and smile!<BR>Aloha, cl

Well, I guess I just can't let a good thread die ...<P>I have to address an issue here that bothers me very much. I have reason to be very angry with what my husband did/is doing, yes. BUT I do NOT have to think of him in the same way as I think of slug. I didn't MARRY slug. I didn't promise her anything. I never invited her into my life. She barged into mine, has a reputation for doing so with more than one married man in the past. She is a low life sleazebag who attempted to physically attack me, who I suspect of letting air out of one of my tires, who sent me vicious emails, who called my home and hung up when my husband spent time with me. She is a "pig" in the words of others besides myself. She is also overweight, smokes like a chimney, has a voice like fingernails on a blackboard, is NOT in the least bit attractive and is dumb as a rock. I will call her whatever I like, and, although it isn't a very nice (nor probably emotionally healthy) thing, I will despise her for a very long time.<P>I did, however, marry my husband, promise to love and cherish him for the rest of my life. I chose for him to be in my life and to be in his. While he has done a very cruel thing by having this affair and not attempting reconciliation, he has not been abusive in any other way. Yes, it is disrespectful - but I have forgiven HIM because he is my husband and I love him. I believe that an affair is a choice in some ways, but, having talked with a number of people who have 'walked out of the fog', it really is an addiction in others.<P>Heartpain, have you never been compulsive about anything? Never been obsessive? Ever been depressed? I ask because I HAVE been all of those things - and it is difficult for a strong person to break that kind of cycle. Many of our WS's are weak or down when their affairs begin - sometimes even due to our own behavior - and we all know that an affair does NOT strengthen a person. I have recently posted that I have been exposed to the temptation myself - we are all, regardless of what we might ever think, capable of making that terrible choice - that step toward infidelity. Particularly when we are lonely, feeling badly about ourselves, needy, neglected. It is awfully self-righteous of us to sit here at our computers and say "Well, I'd NEVER have an affair!" We might be able to say "I haven't ever resorted to having an affair to meet my emotional needs" but any one of us here could get sucked into something and be in over our heads before we know it. I have known some very strong-willed people who fell head over heels for someone who was married and were able to justify why it was okay for them to be involved with a married person. Perfectly sane, reputable people, suddenly sucked into the murky quagmire of infidelity and INCAPABLE of seeing that what they are doing is just plain WRONG.<P>So, I have seen both sides of the story. So far, I've managed to stay MOSTLY on the "right" side of it - but I am never so foolish as to believe that I am immune, or that I am too "good" to get sucked into that place where my husband is. And if I ever did what slug has done to me, I would deserve being called the most vicious names one could ever think of.<P>Again, I am MARRIED to the WS, not the OP. I love the WS, and didn't even KNOW the OP until she thrust herself into my life uninvited. I never have to like her, and I never have to say nice things about her, and after what she has done to ME, "slug" is a very polite thing for me to call her.<P>I could keep going, but I would only be saying the same things over and over again (even more than I have already). I don't mean to offend anyone here, but I feel very strongly about this.<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

Bravo Terri, that was <B>very</B> well put. <P>

OK <B>terri</B>, congratulations on a point well made. BUT, didn't you notice that I made every effort NOT to generalize. There are exceptions to everything, and I fully acknowledge that. BTW, I have always gotten a kick out of your calling OW "slug". But you have to admit that it isn't something that some other innocent might find "offensive"...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Heartpain, have you never been compulsive about anything? Never been obsessive? Ever been depressed?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Well, on the above, you've been here longer than I. Don't you remember my months of "Plan A -- Plan obsessive -- Plan Stupid" sequences? Yup, I've been everything you mentioned and demonstrated it quite spectacularly on this board.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>but any one of us here could get sucked into something and be in over our heads before we know it<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Again, yup...had the right person come along at exactly the right moment during the worst of this and I would have been lucky not to have succumbed. BUT, don't you think there are some OPs(not slug) that this could also apply to??? And if that's true, wouldn't there be times when the BS would not recognize that and resort to nasty name-calling and generalizations??<P>Your H has put you thru he!! and back several times. My comments really were directed toward those who haven't put in the time, who haven't really done any of the right things to try to repair the marriage, those who sit on their butts, bemoan their fate, do nothing constructive and just gripe about the OP. And there are posters here who fit this description to a tee...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>"slug" is a very polite thing for me to call her<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Understatement of the decade!!!!<P>hugs, terri....<P>--DeWayne--

Heartpain,<BR>According to your last thread you attacked people who you believe did not Plan A and said they sit on their butt??????? I'm curious as to why you attacked my thread?

<B>trs -</B>OK, maybe my rambling is getting me into trouble here, but you've got to look at the whole point...<P>Plan A, Plan B, whatever, it doesn't matter. If someone puts all of their emotion and effort into bashing the OP rather than diverting as much of that as possible into behaviors that are intended to save the marriage, basically get what they pay for. I've already agreed above that the occasional rant is good for the soul and psyche. Can we at least agree on that??<P>Continual forays into negative comments, negative emotions, etc. create negative karma. Zukov, McGraw and others all say the same thing. "What you fear, you create". Many times, vicious attacks on the OP, without channeling a lot of positive effort into the marriage are the result of fear. Fear that the WS won't ever come back. Fear that the WS will stay forever with the OP. You cannot repair a marriage without tons of positive karma.<P>How can anyone have the energy to do the good things when they wear themselves out beating up the OP?<P>I mean you guys are attacking me like I've said it's a federal crime NOT to forgive, not to kiss and make up with the OP. For Pete's sake, my therapist even referred to my W's OM once as a "scumbag". I pretty much agree with her, but look at my posting history. I haven't made a career out of using every nasty name I can think of and even inventing new ones. Certainly, I have done it on occasion.<P>One of the dangers here is thinking that in every case it's OK to have these vents about OP to the WS. Some WS's are not as deep in the fog as others and won't react by pulling away(example, fairydust...Her H understands or at least doesn't make it an issue). Other WSs will react to these attacks on OPs by pulling away, building a negative picture of the WS, etc.<P>At this point, I have to admit a little confusion on my part. By "attacked my thread", are you referring to my 12:26 reply to your 12:05 post? If so, what offended me was the references to Sheryl "re-writing" the MB handbook. And haven't I agreed with the point that venting occasionally can be a very good thing? Have I ever said that you cannot say bad things about the OP? Did I point you out as one of those who "sits on their butts"? For those keeping score, the correct answers are yes, no and no, respectively.<P>Please re-read my posts if you don't see this. Take my entire message or even my history of postings here to form your opinion about me, not just a phrase or two.<P>I mean, go back and read your reply on this thread at 7:40am on 3/29. Isn't that pretty much what I have been saying? I think so. Different words, maybe stronger words, maybe too strong(and if so, I apologize).<P>I have a suspicion(and I could be dead wrong), but I have a feeling that the BSs here who didn't spend most of their time here bad-mouthing the OP and had the least offensive names were the ones with the best recovery rates. By least offensive, I mean funny, or something related to the affair, but not hurtful, specific attack slurs. I don't know if this is true...Guess I need to spend a weekend checking this one out.<P>trs, I'm sorry I offended you. We have expressed some very similar ideas....

<B>Terri, Trs, and Heartpain</B>,<P>Ya'll been busy while I've been away!! <P>First, <B>Terri</B>, your post is VERY well written, and it is VERY understandable that you would hate your OP (because of what she's done to you personally -- aside from the obvious affair with your H, of course)... however, I will not deviate from my original mission with this thread-- to make everyone think twice before allowing how the OP is shaped to determine their worth - or lack thereof. <P>Throughout this thread I've had to listen (see! ) remarks about it being "okay" to say something about weight because "they can't help it" like race or disability. This WAS MY FOCUS of this thread. If you want to call your OW a slug, I honest to God don't care. <P><B>Heartpain</B> is a good, good man with a heart of gold. He has a VERY valid point also... and it was <B>NOT</B> where I planned to go with my thread, but he makes such a good point also -- and I think it's important. <P>Why did your spouse pick the OP they did (barring alcohol -- in which case it's a whole other ballgame)? What does that say about them and about you? Does it matter at all? <P>It's **so easy** to believe that the OP was a scummy piece of crap who lured your spouse into her (or his, depending) bed. Unless alcohol is involved and your spouse is hanging out at bars (where the girls all get prettier at closin' time), chances are the OP is a *regular* person who, for whatever reason, lost her/his moral compass and did the unthinkable. But that isn't even my point, now is it? No, my point is, and has been throughout this thread, that by making rude remarks about the bodies of OW you are making it sound like fat = scummy, morally bankrupt, dirty, whorish OW. Because I've had a weight problem my entire life, and also I've been an OW, maybe I'm overly senstive. <P>I also want to remember what Statue said a few pages back -- karma has a way of coming back on you (and by that I mean ALL of us, not you personally). <P><B>Trs</B>,<P>You seem to go back and forth a bit... I know you're torn between hating your OW and "wanting" to go off on her and also not wanting to hurt people like me when you do... you do what you think is best... <P>We really are all friends here, and you are intitled to your opinion... <P>By the by........ it's late and I'm really tired.... plus tomorrow is moving day... so I'm whipped... if this doesn't make sense forgive me!!<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>(a bit worse for the wear, but hanging in there)<P><B>Life <I>is</I> difficult</B>.<BR><I>The Road Less Traveled</I><BR>~M. Scott Peck<p>[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited March 30, 2001).]

Heartpain and NB,<P>Just wanted to make sure that I did not offend anyone-I struggle with thinking OW is somehow better than me-my ego has been killed and I know what EN's I was not meeting with H - I do have my nickname for OW but that is all-I don't like to attack people-went thru physical and emotional abuse all of my childhood and still struggle with both parents on this because I do not want to hurt people the way I have been hurted-Thanks for your honest answers....I don't think anyone is a bad person here just voicing their opinion.....Thanks!!!

<B>trs -</B>thanks so much for responding..I thought I had terminally pi$$ed you off...I still have those same feelings of inferiority when comparing myself with OM...I guess that it's because W still hasn't come clean about most of what happened.<P>{{{{{{{{{{trs}}}}}}}}}}