Dear Everyone,<P>Sorry to say that my WH has found this site and read my posts. He'll probably read this too.<P>He thinks along the same line as "Just A Person" and feels we are out to manipulate our spouses to get them back. So, how do you show someone that you want to change and to care for them when all they can see is a selfish motive behind what you do?<P>I guess what you reply here will be read by him - so, I'm hoping you guys have some wisdom on this one.<P>He also thinks that its unfair that I havent told you how bad I was as a wife. Hes upset that you are supporting me when I'm to blame for the mess I'm in. So, just for the record (which I know you guys are aware of anyway because we're all responsible for what happens in our marriages), I admit I was not the best wife. I let him down alot. I cant cook and didn't try hard enough to change that, I rejected gifts at times, I don't always say thankyou, I did have the occassional drink before sex, I didn't always encourage and build him up.....and so the list goes on.<P>I really do love him and care for him, but he wont accept or believe that.<P>Where do I go from here?<P>Dancer

Dancer you only have control over what you think and do. If your H comes here he needs (tell him to) read the background information so he understands a little more about behaviour (his and yours). Then tell him you are doing this to improve yourself, and he is responsible for his own behaviour. Further that wanting to save ones marriage is definitely a selfish motive, what else could it be? But it is not wrong to want to do so.<P>As for being a "bad" wife. There are no perfect wives or husbands. It is useful if one wants feedback to be honest about your behaviour, but no need to beat yourself (or your H) up, just state the relevant facts and see what people respond with. If one does not do so, the responses will not be as helpful. If your H is concerned about this, suggest he post his thoughts, there are actually quite a few ws here, I am a wh, and having difficulty right now. In fact my w is now posting here, and I cringe at some of the things she says (not fair in other words in my opinion), but they are her thoughts, feelings, perceptions, and she is entitled to them. I don't think she is trying to be malicious, just a given that 2 people in a marriage will see things differently, that in itself is part of the problem, your H needs to realize that, communication is a big issue. <P>As for where to go, you are in the right place. Become an expert at the MB principles, and work on you, that is all you can do. I would suggest you do stay, and not be intimidated off by H, that would be a bad bad sign of abusive manipulation. And to your "H" if you read this, whatever you decide to do about yourself and your marriage, is up to you, but being angry (if you are) about your wife seeking help is way past wrong, it is downright meanspirited. She is not responsible for you A, you are. I have been unhappy too in my marriage for good many years, and my wife has contributed to that (and so did I), but she had nothing to do with my choosing to let a friendship with another person grow to something more. Quit telling her (if you are) she is at fault, and own your own behaviour, be a man. I would also encourage you to read about marriage and relationships (and there is lots of info here), you need to know this stuff if you ever expect to have a successful marriage.<p>[This message has been edited by sad_n_lonely (edited July 05, 2001).]

<B>how do you show someone that you want to change and to care for them when all they can see is a selfish motive behind what you do?<BR></B><BR>Dancer, I don't have a lot of answers, as I am new at this myself, but I didn't want you to think no one has heard. Others will respond later, I'm sure.<BR>The only way to SHOW your H that you have changed/are changing is just to let him see it. It will take time. But your marriage (or mine ) didn't get to this disaster overnight, and it will take time to fix the problems. I have no doubt you "did things wrong" - we all do. So did your H if he's willing to admit it.<BR> But just because it isn't what you want it to be now, doesn't mean it can't be what you want it to be at some future time. You just have to want to change it, and work - REALLY work hard to make it what it should be. I didn't realize at the time that I was "neglecting" a lot of my H's EN, but I do now. I am trying to change my attitude about my role as W. I see it isn't so much changing ME as simply doing what a wife SHOULD do and I was neglecting that. My H was/is a GIVER, and I became too much of a TAKER, and my TAKER continued to take more and more, finally he didn't want that anymore and left. At least your H is open and communicating with you. IF he is willing to stay and try & fix your M, IT CAN BE FIXED. These are learned behaviors, which you maybe didn't know how to do before, but now you've learned. He will watch you for awhile and see if what you are saying is true or not, but if your motivation is really there to fix your M, you can. Both of you. <BR> I don't see this as manipulation. After all, didn't we really "manipulate" our spouses when we were dating them, and we had our best foot forward to win their love? Didn't we see to it that we made them happy at every chance, so they would want to stay with us, because we enjoyed being with them? If we continue to do those things, is it called manipulation, or just being the best you can be in their presence so that they stay and make us happy in return? This is how dating occurs and sustains a relationship, but we let our "dating" behavior die once we marry. I think the MBer material is simply telling us to maintain that level of attention that we all did during our dating "rituals" in order to maintain the level of love in our M. Simple to say, not so easy to do with everyday stresses and responsibility, but it can be done with hard work and commitment to do so.<BR> For both of your sakes, I hope he stays and tries with you. Good luck to both of you, and God Bless you. I'll be praying for you.<BR>Lupo<P>

Dancer--<P>I don't know about you, as I have not read most of your posts, but I will say that most of us do Plan A to improve our part of the marriage. The hard part is realizing that you can improve your part, but what your spouse does is up to them.<P>Mine was a bit suspicious as well at first, as to why I was being so nice to him. The reason was truly that I was worried about him and "us" both, and whether we stayed together or not, I wanted to know I had done the best I could, once I realized what was wrong. Shortly after, he did realize that he did not want to give up home, family, kids, etc., without even trying, and we were able to recover very, very well . And, once we both began treating each other in a "Plan A" type manner, we fell inlove with each other again.<P> I hope that the same thing will happen for you. Good luck--<P>Kathi<BR>

Dancer - I think you keep doing what you're doing.<P>For Dancer's H - I won't pretend to know what's in your mind and I'll not judge you for having issues with your wife's performance as a wife. We all have issues like that - no marriage is perfect all the time. But, almost all these issues are fixable. Also fixable are affairs. Surprisingly so.<P>When you're ready, we'll help. No accusations, no slamming, no in-your-face holier-than-thou ranting. Just plain help.<P>WAT<p>[This message has been edited by worthatry (edited July 05, 2001).]

To Dancer's Husband,<P>All of us on this site know that both parties contributed to the state of their marriage. That is a given. However, the person who had an affair is solely responsible for their actions. There are many wayward spouses (WS) who also post here. My husband does under the name SeenTheLight. There is help here are anyone who comes here to honestly work on themselves and their marriage.<P>The Marriage Builder (MB) concepts, Plan A and Plan B are not about the betrayed spouse (BS) manipulating the WS. They are really about the BS. In Plan A the BS works on improving themselves as a spouse and as an individual. In Plan B the BS is trying to preserve whatever small amount of love they have for their spouse and at the same time start to get on with their own lives in the event that the WS does not return to the marriage. When the BS discovers that their spouse has had an affair, their entire world is turned upside down. It is also about the BS getting some very much-needed support in their journey towards recovery.<P>That’s all this site is about. It is not about manipulating anyone. It’s about making sense with the disasters our lives have become.<P>As for agreeing with Just A Person. Are you aware that Just A Person is the other woman (OW) in an affair? She was here to manipulate the wife of the man she is involved with. Her motives are less then honorable. She is the manipulator.<P>I hope that you will post here. That you will engage us in dialogue as every point of view espoused here gives us new insights. It helps all of us grow. And you could fill us in on your side of the story.<P>Z<BR><P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

Dancer,<P>My H looked over my shoulder and discovered what I was doing here...he too was filled with anger and resentment.<P>I explained I came here for support and to learn about myself. He still did not like or accept that.<P>He posted a couple of angry things....EfftUpMyLife...I had encouraged him to come here...he wasn't ready.<P>Then he led OW here...I know she read my posts as StrongerInCali...there is a great possibility that she is JustAPerson...<P>He still does not like that I am coming here....<P>WH are afraid of the changes that occur in you...especially positive changes...they don't like feeling judged...It is hard to justify lifestyle in the face of so many telling you to stop and work on your marriage. My H will not talk to anybody...family....friends....he does not want to hear that he is wrong...he knows it, but doesn't want it confirmed...easier to keep on the path he has started....<P>I have made the decision to keep coming here...I get great support and sometimes a kick in the pants...I also get to learn about becoming a better me...<P>In the end, that's all that matters....becoming better and learning...<P>I hope, Dancer's WH, that you come to understand that your wife needs support through this time...if you are still in contact with OW...you are getting support for YOUR changes (I also explained this to my H.), your wife deserves the same support. She needs to be able to vent her feelings and make sense of the senseless.<P>As for this being manipulation....anything you do in life can be considered manipulation...it is your viewpoint....try it from another angle.<P>Cali

Dancers' Husband:<P>The fact that your wife is on this site is a tribute to the depth of her love for you. Hardly what I would term manipulation.<P>MarriageBuilders sets forth a roadmap to help spouses recover their marriage: not only from affairs, but from any situation that has had a detrimental impact to the marital situation. It is a place of healing and guidance, not only for your wife, but also for you.<P>However, you have to come to terms with what you have done. We do not coerce, manipulate or otherwise force upon you what you do not wish to receive: help and guidance from those in a similar plight.<P>From whence does your anger spring? Are you transferring your anger because your wife found out? Do you devalue her need for emotional support in the wake of the devastation you have wrought? Honestly evaluate that before condemning your wife's needs.<P>Also realize that this site is for you as well. To recover a marriage in the aftermath of an affair requires hard work and dedication. By being here, your wife is demonstrating that she is willing to understand the process. Only the two of you, working in concert can make this work. We are here to help you as well.<P>If you do not feel that you are truly being represented, you are free to post here and state what is on your mind; free to read the material presented here by Dr. Harley. Hardly what one would call manipulation.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

Dancer's H--it's a little contradictory to, on the one hand, complain about Dancer as a wife, and ALSO complain or call her manipulative when she is trying to do better.<P><BR>Dancer, you aren't to "blame" for his affair. That was his choice. Your H could have made many more positive choices for your marriage--counseling, doing the cooking himself (!).<P>Choices like you are making now. It's good to take a long look at yourself. Most of us fall into habits--whether it is not cooking, not keeping a tidy house, not really cherishing our spouse, being embarrassed or rejecting of gifts. Some of that can be blamed on being too busy and not focusing on what is really important. It's tough to do everything right, but that's part of learning what the other person's top emotional needs are, if you can meet those, some of the other stuff *can* slide.<P><P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"Whatever is true, honorable, just, pure, lovely, gracious...think about these things." Phil 4:8

Hi, Dancer here,<P>I'm really greatful for your replies to me and WH.<BR>Unfortunately I feel like giving up at the moment - this afternoon I hope to meet with him and some others to separate our things as I leave the state in 7 days to be with family for support during the birth. I don't want to give up, but I just want to get on with life and get off this rollercoaster. Not feeling strong today. Please pray for me, I haven't been coping the past few days. <P>Thanks again - I wasn't going to come back to this site and post but I will, I need to.<P>Dancer

Hi guys thanks for your comments. I think I have been misunderstood but that seems to happen a lot in these sorts of situations hey (both ways). I don't agree with "Just a Person". I think that "JUst a Person" obviously has a lot of hurt (you only need to read a couple of lines to work that out), deep hurt. I almost posted a noted on her comments myself but what can you say? Anyway got to go.<P>PS. I suppose you can work out who this is.<P>Oh and Dancer, I don't want to stop you using this forum. I don't have to come here if you'd like to use it privately. Bye.

Dancer and OnlyMe,<P>To have both post here can be healthy as long as the attitude stays positive. All have room for improvement and if our goals can be the same (rebuild our marriage - give it it's best shot), then all the words will take on a better meaning. Look past the hurt and pain and look to improving the future. <P>You have a new life entering your family? Welcome it with both your arms and heart wide open. Little sense very quickly when there is a divided household. Don't give your new little one that stress. <P>May peace come bakc to your family. <P>L.

OnlyMe - OK, if we've misunderstood you, set us straight. We only have Dancer's story, how about yours? You have nothing to fear here.<P>WAT

Nothing to fear maybe not but I don't know if anything I can write can really say what it needs to say (learned quickly that you need to watch what you say it can come back on you pretty fast huh)and whether I need to say it anyway.<P>Understand?

Dear OnlyMe,<BR>Yes, just when we think we have all the answers, we find out exactly how much we don't know! <P>Dancer, don't be so hard on yourself. I THOUGHT I COULD cook, but after I got married, I quickly found out that I had to learn how to cook differently for my spouse... :eyesrolling: so go figure?<P>Don't give up on yourselves! Hang in there!

Dancer,<P>I don't think you should fear this - your H is reading your honesty. You need to go on honest from here.<P>I hope he does read all of these, studies, and analyzes them. I needed to make alot of changes to, and looking at things, my H needs to make some changes. Maybe the A and these posts (and the spouse reading them) will give the impetus to make the changes.<P>To the both of you: Tommorow is another day, look forward to everyday you have together. Forgive each other, work with each other, and look at this honestly and don't place blame. It takes two to be here.<P>Carry on Dancer, honesty is the best policy. I went and talked to a member of the clergy - I was afraid it would hurt my H - it didn't - but my H said at the time - if it does, it does.<P>hugs, aftershock

Only Me<P>If you want to you can post on here. I'm scared because you slam me so much lately that it'll hurt again to see your posts. Especially now that I know youre after her and her only. But its your call. Tell your story. <P>Dancer