Well, let's be controversial here. There has been a lot of talk about control. Who controls who, what when, where and how. There has been a lot of fight against control of the said above (who, what, where, when & how). <P>Is this an excuse or a valid reason to end a marriage? Is there such a thing as good control vs bad control? If yes, then how does one differentiate? <P>Do viewpoints vary between BS vs WS? Givers vs. Takers? <P>If you could please identify yourself when giving your opinions, it would be helpful. You see, I am confused. I have been accused of being a controller, manipulator, etc. Yet I have also been commended for being helpful, kind and supportive. All by the same person!!! Now either I have a split personality (CARI from the movie or Dr. Jekyl and Ms. Hyde) or there is a major misunderstanding between my H and I. <P>So I turn to this board who is made up of a diverse group for your open and honest opinions. I hope this may help others who sound as confused as I feel. <P>Oh, by the way, I hope you all don't feel that I am trying to control or manipulate you all. It is just an opinion survey to help me. <P>I will go first: <P>Orchid: BS/Giver - Good vs bad control: Yes I believe there is both. I try hard to be a good controller. As a mother, that comes with the responsibility. As a wife, that comes with love and respect. As a worker, it comes with the responsibility as assigned. As a neighbor it comes out of being neighborly (redundant?). As a friend, it comes out of friendship. As a relative, it comes with blood and responsibility. As a citizen, it comes with respect. As far as my faith, it comes out of my obedience to God. <P>Good controlling is not always liked or appreciated but that is not a reason to stop. Do it for the right way and the right reasons. <P>My definition of - <P>Types of good control: Housework, house rules, work procedures, manners, principles, etc. <P>Types of Bad Control: Due to wanting selfish interests ahead of others. Use of bribery or threats to get what you want regardless of others. Bad control generally favor 1 person or group. One sided, no equality. <P>Have I done both? Yes. I try hard to respect others and not be selfish. I am not a saint. I make mistakes and fes up. I try hard not to be one sided in my decisions. Being fair and honest is important to me.<P>IMHO, good control helps maintain order. Order is healthy for a home to be comfortable. Rigid order is not healthy. I have had people (in-laws included) tell me that our home makes them feel comfortable. Yet it is not spotless or rigid, but there is order. Could be in better order but some order nonetheless. <P>Now, H accused me of being too controlling with his clothes. Oh like when he said he was moving out and I put (threw them outside because he wanted to leave everything in our home). He said it was because I 'touched' his things (clothes). I said ok, when can I 'touch' your clothes and not be controlling? No reply. Well what about when I wash, dry, fold, iron and put your clothes away? He said that was a good deed. <P>Hm.... That is what got me thinking. As long as I was doing what he wanted, he did not feel it was a control point (whether is was or not), the only dependancy was that it was what HE WANTED. <P>So in his case, I don't believe it was 'control' vs me NOT doing what HE WANTED. See the difference? Or am I just losing it? <P>Another point is that we tend to 'assume' we understand the WS meaning of words and phrases. Maybe the BS needs to ask for more clarification when the WS speaks to us. <P>So when the WS says things like control, love, hate, divorce, separation, etc. What do they really mean? Mine comes up with different reasons/definitions. <P>Maybe if we understood this point, the BS could communicate better or stress less. <P>Thanks,<BR>L.<P>[This message has been edited by Orchid (edited August 01, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by Orchid (edited August 01, 2001).]

Rainefall: WS/giver & taker: I say this because I believe that we all take too much and sometimes we all feel like we are giving too much. I have been called selfish, which I have been, but I also care about people. I don't think anyone would say they are controlling, but I think all of us are a little. I know that I use to try and control my h., by telling him things like, well if you want to be with me I don't want you doing this. I don't know how controlling that is, but I also know that I often times feel like he is controlling everything. He says, well if you want me to do this, than put up with this and so on?? I don't really know if this answers anything, but????

Hi Orchid ~<P>My Al-Anon sponsor had me draw a circle around my feet. And then she told me: "Inside that circle is the only thing that you can control. The people (including your kids and spouse), places, things, and circumstances outside of that circle are not yours to control no matter how hard you try.<P>Is it a reason to end a marriage? Personally, I don't think so. I know that MY reaction (which I can control) has alot to do with my relationships. For example...my MIL. She's a Control Freak - yup, with a capital C and F.<P>She used to drive me NUTS. I hated being around her, hated going to her home, hated her coming into my home, just plain hated interacting with her because she was so very controlling. <P>She and I are now extremely close friends. We have a closer relationship on many levels than she has with her own daughters. What changed? ME. I changed MY reaction to her controlling ways, and gee, found a friend, a confidant, and a fantastic support.<P>I think disrespectful judgements and selfish demands often go hand in hand with lovebusting control behaviors.<P>I know that I was so caught up in being "right" that I forgot that it is not my job to decide what is Right for other people. <P>If everyone just listened to ME and did what I wanted them to....everything would be just DANDY!!<P>And of course when people are human beings and don't act the way I wanted them to, and even tried to force them to, I get resentful and miserable.<P>It's an ugly situation all around.<P>I don't think there really is "good" control. I think that there is taking responsiblity for ones own life, choices, actions and duties. Any attempt to "control" anything really just means that we know better than others around us...most especially God.<P>--BR<P>------------------<BR><I>Pain is a given, misery is optional.</I>

Hi Orchid,<P>So good to see you on here posting. We need to talk soon, right?<P>Here's my take on control.<P>In most cases I think it's a perception of the controllee. However, there are cases where a spouse is a obsessively blantant controller, a good example is the W in the Oprah segment that was on yesterday. Lora was telling me about it. Guess the W was way over the top in controlling her H's every move, I'm talking EVERY move. They had only been married a year and she was, IMHO, very obsessive. <P>Then there's what I consider a situational controller scenario:<P>For example, if as a W, I was to ASK my H to do something a certain way, he may very well think I was trying to control him, BUT ... if the OW was to TELL him to do that same thing, he would not perceive it as controlling. So, why is his perception of the same request/demand viewed as controlling by me, and not by OW? I believe it's because there are other underlying issues, other reasons causing resentment that haven't surfaced and feeling controlled is caused by those issues.<P>Of course, like I said, I believe there are specific cases of controllers in marriages as well. <P>My nickels worth.<P>Love you, L.<BR>Jo

Hi Orchid,<P>H said my being controlling was a contributing factor in his A. He said we always have to do things your way, or we only go where and when YOU want too. So I asked him to name a few instances when this specifically happened. I got the good ole' I can't remember every detail of the past answer. Funny how often I get that answer when trying to deal with issues in our marriage.

My H during his affair said our whole marriage was everything for Lora, nothing for H. Ouch.<P>I would like to know how he feels now, and may use the Oprah show as an example to start a conversation with him. I fluctuate between thinking it was affair talk and wondering if he really felt that way.<P>I aknowlege that I am insecure and try to control my world. I am in health care and need to motivte patients and to an extent control them ... for thier own good of course... LOL<P>I try hard to get H to tell me what he wants to do and to listen to him. I try and do things that he wants. but lately he says, what do you want to do? and I take that as him feeling its up to me... does he feel he doesnt have a vote, that we will do what I want or does he have no suggestions and ideas of his own... I just dont know. But I have been wondering how to appraoch him on it, and I think I will try.<BR>Lora

Couple of further thoughts about control:<P>Any time that you take action and your motive is based on your desire to force a certain response from your spouse or because you expect a certain outcome - it's controlling. Manipulation is a form of control<P>There are those who come to this site and look at the MB principles with skepticism. I don't blame them, because I have seen both Plan A and Plan B implemented in a "controlling" fashion. Anytime focus is taken off of self, and extended to try to force a solution involving other people, it seems that it becomes about the other person, and not about ones own faults, failings, strengths, needs, and personal progress.<P>When I stop <B>trying</B> (the key word is try, because I can not, no matter how hard I convince myself that I can) to control and manipulate others, I have all kinds of time to worry about ME. When I am obsessed about the other person I am stagnating as a person, and not taking responsiblity for my own life. I become resentful because others are not doing precisely what I think they should be doing, and the result is MY loss of serenity.<P>All those nights while my H was having an affair, that I sat at home, weeping, crying, obsessing, with my mind spinning in circles looking for an angle, any angle, with which to get control over my situation was completely wasted.<P>Only when I stopped trying to control, did I gain a sense of peace. And only when I learned to truly let go of my H did he want to come home for real.<P>I can take care of the things that I are mine to take care of. Everything else, I have to allow others to do, in their way, their time, not mine.<BR><P>------------------<BR><I>Pain is a given, misery is optional.</I>

Indeed an interesting thread. Control is a big issue and a serious issue in relationships, but it is also a confusing notion, cause we all control, we all have agendas, we all act in our own "interests". Rather than a big treatsie on the issue (which I would love to do), I will just try to limit myself to how I feel in re to my circumstances.<P>I think in marital breakdown control comes in two flavors, one being overt control, literaly controlling the actions of another through threats, intimidation etc. This is very bad, and pretty much universally condemned. The other flavor is more common and more insidious, that being keeping one spouse emotionally off balance, and thereby exerting influence over them. This also falls under the category of verbal abuse, cause it mostly is verbal.<P>I think it is fair to say most people in a relationship expect to feel "happy", at least in general, not every minute. What seems to happen though is one partner is more aggressive about promoting their agenda, and if this is done at the expence of the other party, someone is unhappy, diminished, resentful, and percieves the relationship exists for the benefit of the other. This is rarely true of course, both often recieve lots of benefits, and oft times the submissive one actually enables the dominance of the other, it is a kind of dance. What seems to happen though is eventually the submissive one has had enuf, and they rebel, the dominant one (controller) is confused, and then angry cause what they were being valued for (in many cases) is now a complaint. So they try extra hard to "fix" everything (their way of course) and it goes downhill from there. The problem is that this is often cognitive conflict, it is an emotional one, and it will not be solved in the ordinary manner of problem solving.<P>Anytime a spouse says this relationship is always about you, it is time to say whoa nellie, we are having a serious problem. Instead, too often the controller responds defensively, even blaming the complaintant, who then shuts up, once again unheard, more resentment, until finally someone "else" listens to them, hears them.....and loves them. So who is right? And what if the complainer is unfair? Well the harleys have told us, and I agree, if your spouse says you are unfair...then you are. (assuming it isn't a manipulative deliberate scheme of some kind). Think about it, how can we place a one size fits all rule too this, one that all will recognize and apply the same....you can't, so the standard has to be what the one who feels controlled says. That is what the reality is, and what one has to deal with. Now it may be they are indeed unreasonable, and you cannot find a common ground, if so maybe you don't fit, and should divorce for everyone's mental health.<P>So what makes a spouse feel controlled? Many things, in my case my wife made it clear her love was conditional, and depended on me meeting her standards. She used anger, ridicule, "everyone" elses agreement with her, threats of divorce (absndonment, a very vulnerable area for me), nagging, public embarrassment, etc. She controlled the emotional content of our marriage. I resisted this for first 10 years or so cause it was so unfair, she never wavered, I finally gave up and withdrew, having less and less to do with her, arguing little, mollifying her enuf to quiet her down for a few more days etc., anything to keep the peace. Anger is a sympton, anyone who gets mad (in any way) regularly needs to rethink what they are doing. She rarely apoloigizes for anything (the message being I must be wrong), making a lot of decisions or arguing with spouse over stuff that really isn't all that important, even if his way is not the best, are other symptons, but you get the point. My wife always had great reasons, but they were her reasons, about how she wanted her life to be, and nothing wrong with them, just not what I wanted to live like. For example she is well organized, I am not, that is a constant source of irritation to her, and she made it clear I am defective and need to get with it. She never stopped to realize I have other strengths, that she does not, but boy did she depend on them when it fit her picture. That maybe if I was more like her, I would be less like me, and that not a good thing. In a content marriage, without control, I would never be subjected to that kind of judgement. Instead we would find ways to support each other, and accept each others weakness, a controller trys to fix the problem (me).<P>The point I am trying to make is the same one bramble rose made (I think). You can't really control anything but yourself and your attitude. You can have opinions, and try to persuade others, but the moment you attach hurtful/coercive (or even bribing) consequences if they don't "see" how right you are, you are a controller. If you don't LB, apply rules of protection, and poja, you will never be a controller.<P>I left my wife (fell in love with ow) cause she never heard my feelings, she only heard how my feelings impacted her, everything is about her, still is but to her credit she is making some truly herculean efforts to change this, and I kinda like it. I don't think many controllers set out to be this way, or are malicious, they are just trying to cope, be safe..... they just don't understand how in so doing they damage their relationships with others, and then they feel betrayed, cause they did it for all the right "reasons".<P>

snl, yep, I think you and I are on the same page with this.<P>You wouldn't happen to be my husband would you?<P>He has expressed many of the same issues you have with your wife - it took me 3 years of Al-Anon and MB to even begin to understand how controlling my behavior was.<P>He's a big time controller himself - but I think I'm by far the worst offender.<P>------------------<BR><I>Pain is a given, misery is optional.</I>

This is interesting. How does "directing" fit in here? I have never been told I was a controller, but have been told by exH that I was too directing. At work, I had to direct the activities of a division, and then I guess it started to bleed over into the homelife.<P>Like Lora - if you use this at work, how do you come home and turn it off?<P>Also, SNL made a good observation - that he felt his wife never heard his feelings, only how his feelings would affect her. Wow! That one made me think! I wonder if that was how I reacted?<P>Then, I think about POJA - how do 2 people negotiate an enthusiastic agreement without being influenced by each other's perspectives? How does this not cross the line of manipulation, which is a form of controlling?<P>I look forward to see others responses. Orchid, great thread!<P>Desiree<P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

I have to jump in on this because I am just as confused as Orchid about this one. <P>Someone posted on another thread a while back a good book about being controlling, anyone remember what it was?<P>My husband thinks I am controlling and manipulative, therefore I am. I don't see it yet and I am trying hard to understand what he is talking about. I am a very strong-willed person, at work I am a very hard worker and I do control others and make sure they are doing what I feel is necessary to get the job done. I am also far from perfect, oftentimes I am wrong or do not know the answer, but I do control to make sure I find out what is the right answer or the right approach to take. I organize meetings so that everyone can talk and figure out the best approach. I control it in that I make sure it gets done. I am applauded for this behavior at work.<P>I just don't see this as a bad thing. At home, when something was/is wrong, I would talk to my husband, get his opinions and I tried to make sure we came to a mutual decision. Yes, I did control it in that I made sure we decided SOMETHING, but it did NOT have to be MY way, and oftentimes it was not.<P>I am accused of living my dreams and not letting him live his. I have a real problem with this. He says he never knew what he wanted, but that didn't mean he had to live MY dreams. I say, no it didn't, you should have told me that wasn't what you wanted. And I say, what were we supposed to do? Live in limbo because you didn't know what you wanted and I had my dreams but you didn't want to help me with them? I am confused. As soon as he finally had a dream (college), I immediately scheduled daycare for the kids (he was a SAHD), we moved 5-minutes from school and I now had an hour commute, I paid for his classes, I helped with his schoolwork, I took time out of work so he could do homework and do field trips. I see this as someone very supportive of him living his dream. But, he says he just felt like it was a "token" I would throw out to try and make him happy while I still kept my dreams.<P>I don't see what I can do different to change the way he views my helping him. Why does he think I am controlling him? He says it is just my attitude and the way I take charge. But, that is ME! I don't make him do what I want (this is what I think controlling means). I don't threaten or use bribery, we talk, sometimes I get what I want, sometimes I don't.<P>So, I am very interested in this as well. BrambleRose, SnL, do you think you can help me realize what I may be doing that my H perceives as controlling?<P>Sorry, for crashing your thread Orchid. This is a very interesting topic to me.

Dear HbH,<P>Yours is not a crash, but a very good extension of what I am getting at. I am in a similar position as HbH. At work and home, I organize to get everyone to be as efficient as possible. Now I know, recognize and make room for comfort. I am not a soldier. Time for work and play. <P>If we all looked out for each other, then wouldn't it show? why doe sit seem that the ones that get the most attention are the biggest complainers? If they were a kid, wouldn't we call them spoiled? <P>I too am interested in your responses. <P>L.

Br, nah, not unless "he" is a bigamist, and I don't drink either, never have. My big fault is procrastination, and I am a dreamer, kiersey temp is rationalist inventor, and I am a world class problem solver, pretty bright, don't mind confrontation too much, and I troubleshoot for a living. My wife is very down to earth, pragmatic, task focused, and hard working, we match perfectly in execution, we are just a disaster together emotionally, and stress each other beyond tolerance.<P>yeah I hear ya, recognizing controlling stuff in yourself is not easy, especially when you know you are a nice person, and not some icky controller freak. I can control too, but I like to think I am more aware of the efforts, and cause I won't use anger, criticism, etc. am less successful. But I have noticed lately I am more aware of subtle things I do, tone of voice, choice of words etc, and whether my goal is what I think best, or what my wife wants too....is so simple, just ask, listen, be patient.

Ok, I'll jump in.<P>Me, too...been accused of...well, not controlling but "wanting my own way"....but that's simply because it's the best way...don't you think? Very few of us have the god-given ability to always know what's right and why shouldn't we let everyone else know about it. <P>Seriously there is a little truth in there...this is how I feel...although I don't manipulate people...I'm too straight forward for that...I usually just go ahead and do it...pieces fall where they may. That can cause a little resentment in people (like H) who want to overanalyze the the situation to death (value judgment, huh) and leaves them feeling they have no control or no say in the situation. I've begun to see that some people need a velvet glove...they (H?) need to feel that they are in control...even if they aren't. I learned this the hard way...by observing H's behavior with OW....now OW is much more of a **t** then I ever thought about being, but she knows how and when to give in and how to manipulate WH to get her way....leds him around by his nose....and is horribly mean to him....then is instantly contrite and remorseful and acts childlike and pitiful...uuggg!!!!! <P>Which one of us is right...me...firm in my belief in myself and doing what I think is right.....or OW...firm in her belief in "getting what she wants" even if she has to manipulate to get it. Personally I think neither of us is right...and I'm trying to change...because in the past I haven't seen this so much as a bad thing...trying to reconize that POJA might be a better approach.<P>So maybe its not the controlling at all but the method employed that is the important factor....to stop and consider how our "wanting what we want" affects others <BR>and being willing to make the adjustment to make them feel better about the choices made...hey isn't this the POJA...sounds a lot like it to me.<P>Faye<BR>

The book is called:<P>"The Surrendered Wife" by Laura Doyle (not a good title if you ask me, which I know you didn't.. grin).<P>If you go to <A HREF="http://www.surrenderedwife.com" TARGET=_blank>www.surrenderedwife.com</A> you can read the first chapter of the book, and take a self quiz to see whether or not you are 'controlling'. Be prepared for a big ole slap in the face. But speaking from experience, you'll see it as a good thing later.<P>The book is about $20 canadian, but worth the purchase and read. I'm not sure if you can find it at your local library, but you never know.<P>I used to always get responses from my H like, "why should I bother to answer? you're always right anyways". I didn't know what he was talking about. But now I do. It's all those little things that build up and fester. Telling him how to do things. I think I'm helping. I'm not. I'm telling him that my way is best. I'm not allowing him to find ways that work best for HIM.<P>The biggest slap in the face about the controlling issue is finding out that it's based on our own fears. What are we afraid of? Why is it so important that we have things done a certain way? It's not. That's hard to accept. But it's true.<P>An example from my life is dishes. I am anal about them. I have worked out a routine that works for me. We go through a lot in this house (3 kids 2 and under.. who wouldn't? LOL), and I do dishes 3 or 4 times per day. And I've discovered an orderly way to stack them in the drying rack that allows for maximum use of space. When my H has done them in the past, I've gotten upset at how he stacks them. For heaven's sake! They're all in a jumble!! Why does that bother me? Not sure really. But I have learned to focus on the fact that hey, he did the dishes for me! They're still going to dry, right? And if something falls off, he'll learn not to do it that way again, right? Silly example, I know. But as I said, I am anal about dishes. LOL.<P>Go and check out the site. It will help you understand the controlling issue much better. (oops! am I being controlling by telling you what to do? heheeh.)<P>Karen<BR>

Karen, I think you are my wife, good post, and she is learning too (also anal about dishes). What makes for more fireworks around here, is I am a bit like that too, in fact I think we all can be, is an issue of focus in part, and something we should all keep in mind. Also applies to kids, parents often are too overbearing, cause we clearly know better..right?<P>Control is about fear, fear that this chaotic universe will consume us if we aren't in control. This is a survival trait, and a good thing, just needs to be properly applied. So you have exchanged bad control (being anal about dishes) of someone else...to good control, recognizing results no matter the method differs (as long as works within acceptable limits), the difference is now you are controlling you, something much easier and more rewarding to do.

Thanks Topie!!! I went there and I scored a 60, which is just barely being controlling... I was trying to be as honest as I could. Hmmm...<P>I think maybe I'll have my H go to the site and answer for me and see what kind of score he comes out with. Or maybe we'll take the quiz together.<P>The woman has some good examples in the book about controlling, but I don't know, it just seems a bit extreme. Like letting my husband do the finances, why can't I do them? I like doing them, I have no problem with him doing them, he did them for a while and was just fine, but... I don't know. And then there is the whole trust thing, I'm just supposed to blindly trust because for me to find out where he is all the time or wanting to know what he is doing is a way of controlling him.<P>I guess the point is that if I give in then he is supposed to want to do these things on his own anyway, for me? <P>Does that mean I am just supposed to stop talking about the no contact letter and let him handle it. Try not to worry where he is and if he is with OW, just let him handle it and see how he does? Ouch, that is hard, especially since I don't trust him right now. Isn't that like I am just giving in to him and letting him walk all over me...<P>I am confused again. Do you feel this same way Orchid?

HH & Karen,<BR>I scored a 65 on the control test, but yet my wfe says that is what her problems is with me. Who knows that just confuses me even more.<P>GC

Well, ok, I guess I'll jump in here too.<P>Me? well, somewhat "controlling" I guess. (I need to go take that quiz.) I'm the BS. H tells me everything revolves around me. H used to say early in our relationship: "I can't do anything right, can I???" I thought we both got better on this: he stopped taking things personally, I stopped criticizing him. Perhaps we just learned to accept each other as were are (him sensitive, me critical) - and we quit fighting about it, but we didn't really fix the problem.<P>I think everyone is controlling - to an extent. I mean we are all "selfish" creatures - we like for things to go our way. Even the sweetest, softest kitten is "controlling" - she melts our heart and gets her way. <P>So controlling/manipulation/ forcing opinions/directing/ bossing - all have a negative "thing" about them. What about leadership / managing / persuasion / POJA ? Better words? THere's lots of ways to get our opinions across. Perhaps it's all the WAY we do things - you know, "It's not what you say, but how you say it". <P><BR>P.S. TOok the quiz. 90. Which means: <BR>61 and Up<BR>Congratulations!<BR>Your marriage is very intimate and passionate. You found a man you respect, and the two of you have a positive impact on each other. This union is a healthy mix of individuality and togetherness. You're quick to apologize, and he adores you for it. <P>??? Perhaps I answered in the way i would LIKE to be??? I tried to be honest about what I ACTUALLY behave like??? who knows. <BR><p>[This message has been edited by Faith1 (edited August 02, 2001).]

HbH:<P>I don't think it's a matter of not talking about the no contact letter... it's more in tune with the rule of care here... it's all in how you word things.<P>Telling your H that you need the no contact letter is controlling. Telling your H that if he were to do the no contact letter, it would make you feel much more secure isn't as controlling. Talking about how the no contact letter works, and how it has worked for others on this site, is her way. You are sharing the info, but not adding your own control, and leaving it up to him.<P>But yes, some of her tactics are very extreme, which she admits to. Just like the Hareley's do on here. But in both cases, they have found their measures to work. What you need to do is find out if you can use both of them together (kind of like how many of us have done tough love AND MB together). IMO, it would really help in anyone's plan A (IF they have gotten those lines of 'you're always right').<P>Karen<BR>