Can you read my latest post? What the hell, am I just continuing to be abused by this man? (do you still think it is abuse?)<P>He leads me on by this little tiny string, and then doesn't treat me the way I deserve to be treated... He just says I "read into it too much" and "it's not like that".<P>I don't know, sometimes I just think he is turning all his anger for himself onto me and someday he will come to his senses and apologize for hurting me so much.<P>He actually almost had me suicidal again the other day!! I can't believe it. I have been doing SO good since he's been gone. I swore to myself I would not get like that again, and he just made me feel SO, SO freakin' bad.<P>He said that I abused and tortured the kids, the way he twisted things around and worded things, he actually had me believing that I did this. ME!! Finally, I just stopped him and said, okay, if you really felt this way, WHY DID YOU NEVER STOP ME OR SAY ANYTHING ABOUT IT??? The day he had picked up my 2-year old and screamed in her face, I put them in daycare and didn't let him around them anymore by himself. I ask him, WHY DIDN'T YOU DO THAT, if you felt that strongly??? He said he never realized it bugged him so much until I gave him the plan B letter that said I wanted supervised visits until he got counseling for his anger. And then he started thinking back and realized what I had been doing and how I was the bad parent!! ME! The one who has stayed behind and took care of the kids when he abandoned us for a month!!<P>BTW, the things he accuses me of, half of them I don't remember, and the other half, I actually see/hear parents doing all the time. Such as, when my 2-year old is beating up my 1-year old (I mean really beating him up and causing him pain), I continually tell her to stop it. If she doesn't, I usually end up doing whatever she was doing to him back to her. (like pull her hair, pinch her, squeeze her toe, etc). Yes, she screams, but she stops doing it. When they're in the car next to each other and the 2-year old WON'T STOP, what do you do??? I can't let her keep beating up on him. He calls this, physically abusing the kids and that he has NEVER laid a hand on them, but I have and that I do it CONSTANTLY and it really bugs him.<P>When I found out it upset him so much, I told him I would go to counseling and start reading and seeing if I could find better ways to deal with it. <P>It hurts to hear this. The worst of it is 2x in the past, my then 4-year old would COMPLETELY lose it. I mean COMPLETELY, the whole shabang. Kicking, punching, hurting me. NOTHING I did worked, nothing. Eventually I ended up kneeling over top of her and holding her arms/legs down so that she could not hurt me. I would continually say, are you done hurting me? Are you going to stop? You need to calm down, if I let you go will you stop? And I would keep her there until she had either calmed down or agreed not to hurt anyone.<P>He explains this as me torturing our child and that a 175lb woman was crushing this 4-year old and not allowing her to breathe (my daughter was hyperventilating she was so upset at the time). <P>I did not like having to do that and since those two instances, I did alot of reading and found better ways to prevent this from happening BEFORE it started. Once it is full-blown, you can't stop it and if the child is violent, what are you supposed to do, let her beat you or a sibling up?? Break furniture/doors/etc.? I tried everything I could think of at the time, and nothing worked. I couldn't even hold her in my lap because she would head-butt me, elbow me or get her foot up and kick me. <P>To hear him say those words, twist things around and make me feel like SUCH a horrible parent, I truly felt like I should kill myself, to protect my kids from me. I don't know anything anymore. I mean if he really believed this, WHY WOULD HE LEAVE HIS KIDS WITH ME??? If I felt about him the way he SAYS he feels about me, my kids would be in a shelter, with me and him not knowing where we are.<P>He has me apologizing for all this stuff, I'm walking on eggshells trying to please him all the time. I'm worried that if I raise my voice at the kids, he's going to hate me even more. <P>I do not feel guilty about anything my kids or I have been through or the way I have dealt with it. I look back and think I could have handled it better, but I feel no GUILT. Don't you think I should FEEL guilty if I abuse my kids? Wouldn't I hate myself and feel like a horrible parent? Or does that not happen?<P>I am so confused. I'm going to a counselor on Monday to discuss this. But, I feel I have changed so much already. I mean some of the things above are from 2 years ago and I have learned so much since then on how to parent better. Do you know what it is like to try and deal with a 4-year old that is COMPLETELY out of control?? I mean, completely, so much so that she is dangerous? My OD is not like that anymore and I really feel it is because I learned and taught her how to calm herself down and how I need to make her go wherever SHE wants to calm herself down, before a blowup occurs.<P>I've SEEN parents do worse things in PUBLIC than my husband accuses me of. I always thought they could do a better job, but I didn't think they abused their kids...<P>Sometimes I feel like he blows this WAY out of proportion so that I can suddenly be doing something horribly wrong and it takes the blame off of his affair and what he has done.<P>But to hear him talk now, he says he just always felt this way and resented me and it was part of the problem before the A occurred... He makes it sound like he is opening up and telling me how he feels and that I really am everything he says. <P>But again, how can you feel this way about your spouse and never talk to them about it? I mean, it's your KIDS for god's sake! Why would you let someone continue to hurt/torture them if THAT'S how you really felt about it? I don't understand. It doesn't make sense to me.<P>I have never, ever, hit my children, punched them, said mean things to them (I hate you, you should have never been born, etc.), threw them around, etc. I don't even scream at them (raise my voice and yell occasionally, yes, but no screaming - my husband does this when he loses it). But he says he always saw that as "yet". Again, how could you even let that possibility EXIST if you really felt that way? <P>I thought you may help me with this. What do you think?<P>I hope you all don't think less of me now. It is hard to share these things for fear that someone is going to tell me I AM horrible.<P>What can I say to my husband, or do I just let him believe these things about me? <P>Thanks,<BR>HbH

HbH,<P>I just saw this post. Will be back to read it in a bit.<P>Z<P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

HbH,<P>I sorry that you are in so much pain right now, and I don't exactly have what you need to say to your hubby. But I do know that raising kids is a lifelong learning process and the moment we think we have them figured out, everything seems to change. Even with the second and third child, their personalities are sooo different you need to deal with them in an entirely different way. Not to mention the differences between boys and girls. I too experienced my child going bolistic, and I too had to restrain him by basically sitting on him. We now keep all of our children away from stuff loaded w/ food colors and not too much sugar either, they have enough energy w/o adding nitros oxcide to their daily intake. I know it won't help every child out there but it doesn't hurt them to so no to their every want.<P>again I know a big contributor to helping me cope w/ WS nurotic behavior 8 hours of sleep, the bible on tape, and asking the Lord to change me to be more like Him.<P>hang in there HbH, I don't know if either of you know the Lord, but pray that He brings back rememberance of Truth and the truth of the foundation of your marriage to WH.<BR>knight?<BR>

Thank you Nightmare, that means so much. Yes, I have the lord in my life (my husband is an athiest), and I do pray to him frequently. I think he is the one that helped me calm down and realize I really was not this horrific being and that my husband is most likely just trying to pass his guilt/shame for himself on to me. <P>Thanks for the tip on sugar, my OD is MUCH, MUCH better now and I think we both know how to deal with her behavior and she understands when I say "You need to go calm down now, you are getting out of control", and she does. It took ALOT of work, but we are there.<P>I just find it hard to believe my husband truly thinks of me like that and that this really contribuated to the state of our marriage before the A, Especially since I had never heard it until this weekend AND all the other stuff about his behavior over the years regarding it. (basically he did nothing, so why is it so important now?)<P>It's not so bad if he just disagrees, but to throw in words like abuse and torture, it just makes me hate myself. Even for him to even THINK that of me, makes me hurt.<P>Although, now that I think about it, pretty much it has been something new every time we have talked these past two weeks. He felt this way so it made his A okay, he was mad at me so he's not to blame, he loved her so it was okay, he never thought we'd get back together, he was ashamed to go out with me, I was out to get him, I used the kids against him, and the list goes on and on.<P>I wonder how much of this I have to put up with before my husband will just admit the affair was his fault and his fault only. Or maybe him and OW, I'd be okay with that too.<P>I mean, what's next? What else is he going to blame on me? What else is he going to get angry at me for, or "realize" he felt before the A??<P>do I just put up with it all, trying to rationalize that he is "in the fog" and will eventually snap out of it?

Hi Hurtbyhubby:<P>You're breaking a cardinal rule you know. I'm sure you've been told to ignore a lot of what is said by the WS during an affair....that is a rule for a reason...to protect you from taking a lot of abuse (verbal) that comes in the guise of blame (or justification..if you please).<P>You're trying to reason with him...he can't be reasoned with...you're trying to get him see your side of the situation...to him you have no side (you're all wrong)...<BR>see the drift here????? And if you try hard too hard you begin to think he's right.<P>Oh, I did it too, at first....tried so hard to reason with him...accepted a lot of the blame...made promise to change (to myself and to him)....but you know what....as soon as I made some positive improvement in dealing with the areas he considered were problems....the real problem would suddenly be something else....I found myself suddenly having a new "reason" to deal with....until I caught on and quit trying to think I could fix this by fixing myself....oh, sure there were needs not met...but nothing concrete was going to be accomplished until he was out of the fog.<P>So what was I to do....well, quit trying to fix what could not be fixed right now....learn as much about building a good marriage relationship as I could...and make any changes in attitude I need to make to improve myself....and wait...for the fog to clear....and it does....it may take a while...but it does.<P>You'll waste a lot of energy and time trying to get him to change...best to try and change yourself....and hope he reacts to the change.<P>Oh, by the way....my best friend is a teacher who deals with emotionally disturbed children everyday...not that yours are that bad...but she uses the same method of containment that you described to calm an out-of-control child...so don't worry about it...even the professionals have problems with this.<P><BR>Faye<P>

HbH,<P>First a comment on how you treat your children. I wanted to share some stuff with you to let you know that you handled this stuff in a pretty normal manner and that you did the right thing in finding better ways to handle things.<P>You are right that these are things many parents do. As you suggested, you may want to talk to a counselor about more affective ways to handle things like kids pulling each other’s hair. I’ve had very little of this to deal with since, until last year, my son was an only child. However, STL’s two go at it like wild kids sometimes. I handle it by separating them, each exiled to their own room, until every one is calmed down. Then I deal each of them are give a consequence.. like loosing a privilege for some time period. Or I’ll take away something they value – like their stereo or computer for some period of time. But these kids are 11 & 13. I do think that your method is affective. But how it would be viewed in the current legal context I am not sure. <P>As for your handling of your daughter when she completely looses it. I understand this as my son was this way at that age. “ I couldn't even hold her in my lap because she would head-butt me, elbow me or get her foot up and kick me. “ Yep, sounds just like my son did at that age. I was advised by counselors, his doctor, and the wonderful folks on the Boy’s Town hot line to retrain him. They told me to sit in a chair and wrap my legs and arms around him to prevent him from hitting me, hurting himself and breaking things. Then I was to speak to him in a soothing manner until he calmed down. I also repeated to him over and over that I would not tolerate him hitting me. When he got older (7-9) and I could not do these things any longer I was advised to drag him to the middle of a room so that his kicking and hitting could not hurt him, me or anyone else.<P> Then I was to tell him that it was his responsibility to calm himself down. “I am going to another room now. I will close the door and you can stay in this room until you clam down. You are old enough now that it is your responsibility to calm yourself down.” This approach worked wonderfully. <P>The last time he hit me was when he was about 7. His last outburst was when he was 10. It’s been 3 years now. The few times he’s gotten upset I tell him to go to his room and calm down. <P>So, your holding your daughter down was probably the appropriate thing to do. Do make sure that you do not put your weight on her. Her hyperventilating is a normal little kid way of over reacting and getting attention. Throwing a glass of cold water on her (this is not my idea but the normal “correct” way of handling this as hyperventilating can cause a kid to pass out and experience brain damage) will shock her out of it. <P>I have a question for you. While your daughter was “Kicking, punching, hurting” you what did your husband do to stop her? As the alpha male in the home he should have let her know that it is not appropriate for a child to hit their mother. It sounds like our husband has not given you much support in handling the children and is dishing out a lot of criticism. <P>Again, you idea of getting some help via counseling on how to handle these though situations is the wisest. It also sounds like you have been looking for answers and are learning good ways to handle a tough situation. You even talk about some great successes you have had. Good for you. Don’t let your H’s bad mouthing of you keep you down.<P>Your suicidal tendencies. I hope you do not take offense to what I say here.. but please see a doctor and counselor about this if you truly are suicidal. You say that your husband makes you feel suicidal. You are the only one who can make you feel suicidal. I have told you this before. <P>You give your H too much power over you. He pulls your stings and you dance. You need to separate yourself from this so that you learn that you have total control over your own feelings. One of the things that separate humans from animals is that we can stand back and evaluate our feelings and redirect them. I see you doing it here with your vent. This is healthy. <P>Once you get the anger out, push your H’s emotional garbage away from you. Work on YOU. That is what Plan A is about. Set some boundaries. If his emotional yo-yoing is making you crazy then you need to protect yourself. Some people advised you that you do a modified Plan B. Where you deal with him about the kids but not about anything else. I think this is good advice. <P>As for your question about if I think that your H is still being abusive. Yes, it appears to be more verbal and emotional now. But you see he still has a lot of control. From what you have said tonight, you are afraid to go to plan B because he will start his games again. <P>I think that your getting an appointment with the Harley’s is very wise. You need help in sorting this out. I do not feel qualified to give you advice on how to repair a marriage with a man who is emotionally abusive. By gut feeling is to tell you to run from this man. He has not resorted to out and out physical abuse yet but I would not be surprised if he eventually does. But that is my humble opinion based on years of my living with an abusive man and the research I have done on the topic. The cycle starts with verbal and emotional abuse and then moves to physical abuse when the abuser feels they are loosing control. I know that there are people on this forum who would blast me for saying this. But it is my opinion.<P>RE: “I hope you all don't think less of me now. It is hard to share these things for fear that someone is going to tell me I AM horrible. “<BR>You are not horrible. A person who has not had to deal with a child who is like this will not understand what it takes. <P>You have done what is necessary… identified the problem, tried to deal with it on your own, then sought help from professionals when you recognized that it was out of hand. <P>What more could you have done? Some kids are just harder to raise then others. And when our spouse does nothing to back us up, it’s even harder. <P>RE: “What can I say to my husband, or do I just let him believe these things about me?”<P>I don’t think there is anything you can say to your husband that will make him see you differently. How much luck have you ever had convincing him of anything? Do you really think that after all this time a light bulb is going to go off in his head and he’s going to say “oh my, I’ve been so wrong about you. You are the most wonderful wife and mother in the world. I’ve been such a heel to not see that?” Na, it ain’t gonna happen. At least not for a very long time. <P>Yours is a very tough situation. If there is a way to plan A this guy back into your marriage the Harelys will be able to guide you through that mine field. I would be very interested to find out what they have to say to you about it. Perhaps there are some very big object lessons for us all to learn vicariously through your situation. <P>So in short, you are ok; don't try to change him - work on yourself; set some boundaries; don't take what he says to heart; and talk to the Harleys.<P>Hope this helps some,<P>Z<P><BR>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare<p>[This message has been edited by zorweb (edited August 09, 2001).]

Excellent advice from everyone. I also am dealing with a situation very similar. It is amazing how H like ours can twist everything around and make you feel horrible.<BR>I am trying so hard to separate myself from this emotional battery. Nothing I say to him will chanage his mind. I can only focus on myself and the kids now. I pray a lot and am also receiving counseling...I suggest you keep doing the same. You will be in my thoughts.<BR>

Thank you Zorweb. Yes, that does help me alot. I will keep you up-to-date on the Harley's advice. My appt. isn't for another week, so...<P>And, okay, I need to stop believing everything my husband says while he is in the fog. Especially the hurtful things.<P>When this was happening my husband was either in the other room, or eventually would come and tell me that "he would handle it". Usually by that time she was calmed down and he just basically held her and listened to her blame me for her outburst.<P>Like I said though, these outbursts haven't happened for at least 2 years now. Oh, she still gets mad and throws tantrums and stuff, but nothing like I described previously.