Okay, I know I teased in my other post. What did you mean by your post to my thread? That I need to get out more, or that I need to go see there are better men out there than my H that will appreciate me, or just that I need to stop over-analyzing everything, (or something else)??<P>Well, last Saturday my H and I were supposed to go out and play pool together. My H has this fantasy of me having sex with another man - whatever - we don't really have to go there). He kept telling me that he didn't want to stay at the bar, but that I should and that I should go have some fun and if I wanted to leave with OM and tell him about it later (his fantasy) that it would be okay. Well, mind you, I've never been okay with this, but I digress...<P>So, we go to the bar, my H gets sick of it and wants to leave, so he does (ends up going back to the hotel and getting trashed where I find him later on with puke all over him - very appealing). I stay and meet this really nice guy who wasn't trying to get me to go home with him, and we talked alot all night in between me running the pool table.<P>He was extremely nice and I got SO mad at my husband the next day (that is what prompted our fighting this weekend) - I was mad at myself too for allowing myself to be put in that situation especially after knowing how low my love bank is.<P>I told him how I had met this nice guy, and I was so mad because I didn't want to be in that kind of place in my life and that he was never going to leave me at a bar again like that. My H was a jerk and this guy was kind, yada, yada, yada, everything my H wasn't. Actually, our real fight was over the fact that this other guy said that if I was his girl he would never want anyone else to have me, and I so much so wanted my H to feel the same way. (My H just says if I want another man - go for it - he doesn't care, even if it means I don't want him).<P>I was so angry at my H for not wanting me all to himself. Finally, he just admitted that he wants me to have sex with another man for his fantasy, but he doesn't want me to be emotionally involved with them and to start liking them instead of him. He was jealous of this other guy. Like I care at this point, right?<P>I felt horrible about what had happened. I was completely honest with the guy about everything, but he was just a nice guy and kept telling me I should work it out with my husband for my kids sake, but if it didn't work, he'd like to date me, and I just cried. I told him I am not in that type of place in my life.<P>So, I vow to never do anything like that again until my relationship with my H is better or I am single. He said he will always go with me from now on and not leave me there for his own "kicks" or so that I can get hit on (I do enjoy guys telling me I'm beautiful, but that is not good for me right now).<P>So, I just had to share. I know there are other men out there that will treat me a hell of alot better than my H is right now. But, then I just remember the way my H used to be, and I melt. <P>I don't know what is going on with him and what is up inside his head. I mean, the counselor has figured out that SOMETHING about me or a particular situation just triggers something inside my husband and he HATES me, I mean, utter hatred. And, I don't even have to DO anything. <P>It was triggered Tuesday night and NOTHING happened. Just *poof* I'm the bane of all evil and he wants nothing to do with me and he wants to run away. Now, I KNOW this is NOT me or something I actually did warranted this. It's all in his head. He goes from extreme love to hatred all in the matter of a day or two. And yet the counselor says these are all normal mood swings that happen due to the situation he has put himself in... Whatever, I personally think his counselor needs to go back to school.<P>Actually, my H typically has the most feelings and love for me when we are alone and he has gotten alot of sleep. His hatred/anger comes out when he has had little sleep and is getting overwhelmed by the kids and I am here to take it out on. But I have no control over situation #2, and I don't see what I can do about it other than get out of his way or make him go home...<P>Anyway, just thought you'd be interested. My husband's head is VERY complicated. You wouldn't BELIEVE half the things I could tell you. Especially sex stuff.<P>I wonder alot lately why I try to stay married to this man...<P>HbH

I know how you feel. (see my previous post). I know I could probably find someone who would treat me a lot better than my Husband. I don't even like the person my husband has become. It's like he has a split personality. But then I remember the man I married, and I can't imagine being with anyone else. I just keep thinking that my old husband is still in there somewhere, and that maybe someday he will get his head straightened out.

Hmm...Ya want the truth? You do....ok then.<P>First re the reply in other post, it was a little tounge in cheek, but I was sorta serious. Your H seems to have no respect for you at all, and maybe realizing you could be appreciated by om might wake him up. That is what I was getting at...getting his attention short of serving him with papers.<P>But now.......wheweee IMO your husband is 5 beers short of a six pack, and I have no idea what you are thinking in putting up with this. The only question I have now is how can you love someone who seems to have no respect for you, but instead seems to view you as his property, to do whatever he wants to with, but whose feelings are of no import. Re the sexual stuff, guess that falls under the category of swinging, but I will spare you (and the board) ny opinion of that lifestyle. I am glad you are not interested, but since your husband is, my advice is to seriously consider the nature of what you think is your love for him....it is getting to sound a lot like a dependentcy, the kind that arises from chronic emotional abuse....where the victim loses their identity and takes on the identity of the abuser, and exists solely to meet their need. Complaining and unhappy, but strangely unable to see the desperation of their circumstances. IMO you would be well served in studying up on emotional abuse issues, and looking hard at who you are married too. Keeping in mind that abusers are typically sociopaths and do not change....ever....the issues with the kids is scarey too. I have felt uneasy for you all along, and my weirdo meter has just gone off the scale. Keep in mind too that if you decide to distance yourself, abusers typically get all nice and manipulative...but if you stick to your guns they get violent and dangerous, be careful.

Oh great. Now I have chills up my spine... LOL.<P>Thanks for your reply SnL. Can you send me some links/books on the emotional abuse you are talking about? <P>Here are some more chills for you:<P>"it is getting to sound a lot like a dependentcy, the kind that arises from chronic emotional abuse....where the victim loses their identity and takes on the identity of the abuser, and exists solely to meet their need." <P>-Wow. Did you get that out of a book, or did you read my posts and write it? Many times I have told my H and myself that I live for him and the children. It didn't really bug me, and still doesn't, but maybe it should... Zorweb has helped me out alot with emotional abuse, and I do think I was/am abused. Wow, the more I think of this statement, the more true I believe it to be. It wasn't all my husband's fault, he tried to get me to go do the things I enjoyed, but I gave it all up just to concentrate on our marriage and making him happy.<P>"if you decide to distance yourself, abusers typically get all nice and manipulative...but if you stick to your guns they get violent and dangerous, be careful."<P>-Okay, where did you get this from?? I don't know HOW many times I've posted that when I try to set boundaries (like plan B - 3 times), my H just gets all mad and says I'm controlling him and stuff. The breakins with the house, the mean voicemails, etc. But, when I first try, he is all nice and sweet and stuff like that, it is only when he realizes I mean business that he gets really upset and usually finds some way to pull me back in...<P>Great, now I'm scared. My counselor today talked to me about setting limits and chances are I am going to have to ask my husband for a seperation again, because he has recently renegged on his commitment to me. And I am not living in limboland anymore. I'm done. <P>In any of your case studies, is there ever even a chance of someone like my husband benefitting from counseling and mending their ways? <P>Do you think it's possible that all this is in my head and I am just making it out to be worse than it is. I don't consciously do that, but sometimes I wonder (especially when my H gets going), that I may do this...<P>Is there anything in your books about my H seeming like the perfect person on the outside but revealing all these inner problems/thoughts just to me, so that I have to deal with him/everything? No one else knows all of the things I do about my husband. I guess I sort of feel like it is up to me to help save him from himself, I don't want to abandon him... I've tried to give up on this and let the counselor take over, it's been working okay so far. He still doesn't tell the counselor EVERYTHING though...<P>Thanks again, SnL. I will try reading up on some of your suggestions...<P>HbH

HBH, did you ever think that your H wants you to sleep with another man not for fantasy but so that you can BOTH be CHEATERS and he can now have something to throw in your face. Basically, he doesn't want to be the bad guy alone and wants you to stoop to his level.

Hi Trying. He's wanted me to sleep with another man for quite some time. The first time he brought it up was 3 1/2 years ago (well before the A). Sometimes as a threesome, sometimes by myself. It's a fantasy of his.<P>He even went so far 2 1/2 years ago to rent a PO Box and get single men to send in their pictures, etc. in the hopes that I would see something I liked. I looked at the pictures with him but just kept saying I wasn't interested... He even wrote to a couple of the guys I thought were cute, but when I found out I made him write them back and tell them I wasn't interested. I don't actually know if he did, but he said he so...<P>He has said that part of him wants me to do that now so that we will be "even". But, on Saturday, he was strictly talking about his fantasy.<P>Oh man. I just sent myself out to the gallows, huh? But, that is your answer anyway...<P>HbH<p>[This message has been edited by hurtbyhubby (edited August 24, 2001).]

Yes, is all my own thoughts, but keep in mind I have no formal training in anything (but fixing air conditioners), and I could be majorly full of crap. Still, abuse has long been an interest of mine (and my wife does some of this, but not alot, is just stuck in anger as a coping mechanism). I have read a lot, and followed peoples lives as well. I don't have a library of links, but here is one to get you started <A HREF="http://www.verbalabuse.com" TARGET=_blank>www.verbalabuse.com</A> and I am sure you can search for lots of stuff. Abuse is endemic, there is a lot of it out there, and women the victims in much larger numbers than men. Like most things it is a range, on a given day anyone of us can act in an abusive manner....the issue is when it is chronic and continuous, and how much anger, disrespect is involved. It is very common to sexually debase your wife as part of the abuse, your post set off alarms all over the place. I think you are married to a sociopath. I am also struck by the continuous focus of your posts on how you are so much of the problem, how maybe you just can't see the truth, etc. etc. that is what reality checks are for, (like coming here), I think you know the truth, and now only seek moral support to do what you know you must....take back your identity, your life. For you, and your kids. There are many strategems used to confuse you...this is one of them...<P>hbh...It wasn't all my husband's fault, he tried to get me to go do the things I enjoyed, but I gave it all up just to concentrate on our marriage and making him happy.<P>snl...I suspect if you (or someone knowledgeable about such things) were to really look hard at this you would find your H never really encouraged you at all.....he probably gave you specific (implied if not actually stated) guidelines under which you could enjoy yourself, and you were very aware of what those limits were. This was designed to make him feel better, and give him ammunition to use against you later. You have been carefully molded into being the kind of wife you are, your only fault is you finally rebelled, if you go back to being the way he wants you to be, all will be well....but the control will continue to escalate, you will be more and more isolated, alone, and feel bad about yourself....this stuff never ends, and no, such individuals never change. They know they can replace you with someone more manageable, and that is what they do when your maintainece gets too high. The danger is if they are too unstable they may hurt you first, so it is important not to be confrontational about leaveing, make your plans carefully, and then do it decisively, and don't look back no matter what is said. This is hard stuff hbh, you must decide for yourself, but this is how it works in real life, do not underestimate the severity of your circumstances. You have all the signs in spades of a battered wife (and that does not just mean physical, it is a psychological condition) IMO. Giving this kind of advice on a forum is risky, and I may be chastised (and rightly so) for doing it. But I am worried about you alot, so I decided to do it anyways..just keep in mind I am not an expert, you must validate all this stuff with those who are, but it is the truth as I see it. Good luck.

Thanks SnL. I think this is the website Zorweb sent me to a while ago, but I will check it out again...<P>You wrote:<BR>"I suspect if you (or someone knowledgeable about such things) were to really look hard at this you would find your H never really encouraged you at all.....he probably gave you specific (implied if not actually stated) guidelines under which you could enjoy yourself, and you were very aware of what those limits were. This was designed to make him feel better, and give him ammunition to use against you later. You have been carefully molded into being the kind of wife you are, your only fault is you finally rebelled, if you go back to being the way he wants you to be, all will be well....but the control will continue to escalate, you will be more and more isolated, alone, and feel bad about yourself..."<P>Oh man. This is EXACTLY what my H is accusing me of doing. Exactly. I mean he thinks that I gave him little tokens to go out and keep him happy, that I molded him into the person I wanted, and he feels like he is finally rebelling against me and that if he goes back I will go back to controlling him in that manner. I have a hard time accepting this, but it is the way he feels. Sometimes I think he feels this way because he talks alot to people you WERE in those kinds of situations and I think they just brush their views off to him. Maybe not, maybe I was like that...<P>I don't really feel like that at all. I don't think I ever thought that I was the kind of wife that my husband molded me into. I definately didn't rebel against it. I can never do anything the way I am supposed to. I did spend a good portion of my married life trying to please him and trying to find ways to make him happy, to no avail. I now think this was because of whatever is going on inside his head, but maybe it's just the way he is now.<P>If my H felt that way, does that mean I emotionally abused him as well? Or maybe I was just controlling... Or maybe it's all just in his head. I mean, that's what he says he feels, but when we talk about it, he doesn't really have good examples, or when he does, I explain what I really meant (and not that I was "out to get him"), but he just brushes it off and refuses to believe that could be true. So then, I wonder if he is right and I really meant what he says I meant instead of what I think I meant...<P>Do people change into being this way, or were they always like it and just hid it well??<P>Thanks for your support, SnL. I am just so confused. I mean, you can look at things from all sorts of angles. I mean if you heard my husband explain his side of things, sometimes I think they would cart me off to jail...<P>He just laughs when I try to talk to him about emotional abuse and how I was afraid it could turn physical eventually. He says "you know me, I could never do anything like that, that's not like me." You can imagine what my reply is inside my head, I'm sure... Outside, I just say "okay, whatever you say". I talk to him about being rough with me and how when we wrestle he gets too rough. He just says "oh yeah, well, you know I have alot of aggressions and stress to take out, wrestling helps me to do that." I just say, okay, well you get too rough sometimes...<P>I probably just hung myself out to dry again, huh? <P>I worry about what if I'm wrong though? What if it is all just in my head and I'm overexaggerating things or maybe I say them out of context or something. I try not to, but maybe I do...<P>You are right about one thing though, my husband does not respect me at all.<P>HbH

hbh....I probably just hung myself out to dry again, huh? <P>snl...Yeah, you did <P>Of course your husband says that, turns it around, that is sociopathic 101. Use your comlaints against you...so how do you tell? Easy.....who is doing what they want in the marriage, and who is not?<P>They do this cause it works. You give them the ammunition, they know what is important to you cause you just complained about it, so what better tool to keep you off balance? Forget the words hbh, the answer is not in the words, it is in the actions. You are verbal, so he keeps you all tied up questioning yourself, you are arguing both sides, yours and for hi. In so doing you seek to be fair, but never can be, cause you will sacrifice your feelings first....all he has to do is stir the pot a bit when you are sorta finding your way out. QUIT talking to him, just do what you think best, and WATCH his responses, therein you will find the truth, and it won't be pretty. <P>I have a special place in my heart for abused women, and a cold abiding anger for the men who do this, who take their role as protector and provider and twist it into a perverted means to have their way with women. My mother was abused, fortuneately she escaped fairly early, maybe it started there, I dunno, but maybe it makes me come on too strong, just letting ya know.

Well, even if this is dead wrong, it's nice to hear someone cares... <P>I took the test and it says I'm a 7. "I am sometimes abusive without realizing it". Yeah, I think that is correct, especially from what my H tells me...<P>It also said I "may be in a verbally abusive relationship" (4 out of 6).<P>I also took the test for my H, as I perceived he should answer the questions (based on what I see and what he tells me), He scored 28. 12 or higher means "you may have a need to control others and may therefore be abusive".<P>Hmmm... Well, I guess there's your answer. I wonder if he'll take this test for me or if that will just stir up problems.<P>I truly know nothing about sociopaths. What exactly does that mean?

Well, just FYI, I plan on talking with him today/tomorrow and the topic will be that of me filing for seperation until he figures out what it is he wants and what he is willing to commit to...<P>AND, my counselor says she will talk to his counselor, so I think that can only help things.<P>HbH

Double post - oops<BR><p>[This message has been edited by hurtbyhubby (edited August 24, 2001).]