SnL,<BR>I was going to put this as a reply to Cali's thread, but it's really for you alone.<P>Hon, I heard you and believe you when you wrote about how people here assume you're not working on your M because of your postings, but I think you need to realize that all the good you may be going at home..all the non LB, meeting EN, POJA and just plain hanging in there is negated by the things you write simply because we all know that Thinker can get on here at any time and read them. See what I mean?<BR>I could be doing a bang up job at home, need a place to vent and I would be "safe" in terms of real spewing out some stuff, simply because SO couldn't get on the puter if his life depended on it. And my actions would still be effective, I would feel my deepest thoughts were supported and could go on to the next crisis. You can't..and while many of us really want to help you both whether you stay married or not...well, being here as a couple kinda of takes away your protection..see what I mean?<P>I know what you're thinking...emotional honesty..don't let the stuff pile up..cards on the table...but SnL, you run a business...what would happen if you told every one of your customers all the deep dark thoughts, questions and misgivings you had about them? Can you say "fries with that, sir?<P>So, you're in a hard place...you need to vent, you need to question...continuing in your marriage is a huge decision and you'd be a fool if you didn't. So, what do you do? I think you really need support, need to be totally honest with yourself, but not negate work accomplished at home. and Thinker needs that same privledge...<P>I don't have the answer to this...this is not a "get off the board unless you do it our way" thread..this is a simply recognizing a problem and looking for a workable solution.<P>By the way, my comment about courage was not specifically directed at you in Cali's thread, even though it was in reply to something you said.<P>So, SnL, and others who may be in the same situation..let's have a little POJA of our own. <BR>T

^

ill add that:<P>committing to your thoughts in writting acts as an anchor a way of making the thoughts more permanent even if SNL is perfect at home and this was a safe container for SNL to vent, his concentration on how it cant, wont, or shouldnt work is self defeating. it will become a self fullfilling prophesy a way that he can look back and say see I was right we should have just cut our losses way back when.<P>a way to not risk being wrong or opening himself up for pain.<P>too bad, all the energy he expends convincing himself that its hopeless. what a waste.<BR>

I'll add a bit more...<P>Thinker has already expressed to you that she finds you spending too much time on the computer chatting with everyone here. That should stop immediately---and you should POJA your amount of involvement here. I'd suggest nothing further for at least a month.

Thanks Twyla...sorry...I wasn't intending my words to be bashing...<P>Cali<p>[This message has been edited by JustPlainCali (edited September 25, 2001).]

No, no, no! This is not a bashing thread!!! I'm serious! This could be a real problem not only for SnL and Thinker, but also for other "couple posters" as well...SEM and KS come to mind, but I know there are more.<P>See, those of us whose spouses don't post or whatever, really have complete immunity and safety here...couple posters have to give some of that up.<P>I'm really looking for solutions or ideas that would allow everyone more freedom to say exactly what's on their minds and at the same time not to hurt their partners who would read the posts.<BR>T<BR>T

Twyla---I really do understand...<P>My H did a drive by thread and then so did OW and then so did OW'sH...<P>OW and her H (according to my H) still lurk here and read everything I post...so I am VERY careful about what I write...<P>Also, coming here is an LB to my H...so I even refrain while at home until he is in bed, asleep or out of the house...<P>My first post here was not an intential bashing...I just get so frustrated with SnL...<P>Cali<P>------------------<BR><I>Live Impeccably In Your Word.<BR>Don't Take Anything Personally.<BR>Make No Assumptions.<BR>Do Your Best Always. </I>

Cali,<BR>I understand completely and remember well the situation you went through. It was horrible.<P>And I know how frustrated we can all get with not only SnL, but others as well, and I know I've frustrated some posters as well.<P>I really think SnL poses some excellent thought provoking questions....enough so that I asked my SO recently to be completely honest and tell me if he felt an affinity for the "I don't think I ever loved her" and some other thoughts that SnL has voiced. Because you know what? As the BS, I certainly felt that same way upon discovery and repeated contact and the just plain slogging through the mud to get to dry land.<BR>But now we're in a much safer place for these discussions...early into recovery if either of us had voiced them so strenuously, we never would've gotten off the ground. The pain would've been too great.<P>I had MB to vent, he had a close and very trusted friend so feelings and thoughts that were conpletely confusing and potentially harmful had a place to difuse without taking control of our reconcilliation process.<P>I was rereading an early journal last night, written mostly in the first month after discovery and SnL could've authored it, it was so close to his feelings of fit, love vs in-love, working vs "letting it happen". If SO had read some of that then, or I hadn't worked through those questions, there would have been no personal or relationship recovery.<P>Again, the point is a delicate one. Couples here cannot be as forthright as individuals can simply because their spouse will also be privy to discussions and "phases" that could be damaging. But, there has to be a way to avoid hurting the partner.<P>Thanks for your reply Cali.<BR>T<p>[This message has been edited by Twyla (edited September 25, 2001).]

Up again, looking for SnL.

*snl, dragging his weary butt to the comp*....it has got cold in mich, first cold snap, and everyone has turned furnace on for first time this season, so lots of repair work, put in a 15 hr day at a dead run, am wore out....per MB principles of time together, thinker went with me, we managed to get through a whole day with no fights, and only very mild LB.... ( my w has internalized the communication technique of disrespectful judgements, is like breatheing for her, but she is trying really hard, and being fairly successful, she will soon need tounge surgury however, the biting has just about shredded her, still is greatly appreciated).<P>I will respond when time permits to some of the continuing threads, you all probably sorta enjoyed a day without my input anyways...huh? huh? I know I am a pita, I will always be a pita, that is my lot in life, and where I feel most comfortable, it is a thankless job, but someone has to ask the questions many think about, but few will risk the slings and arrows to tackle. I don't expect to be validated (contrary to some surmises made), nor do I seek to be liked (although I do like being liked), nor would I ever stir up stuff just to watch the fur fly (that would violate every ethic I hold dear).... no is very simple....what you see are the struggles of someone who values truth, and emotional honesty above all else, way above all else, and who willl leave no stone unturned, and will pay any price, to find it. I realize I am an extremeist that way, I just don't know any other way to be. Reading about MB and finding the policy of radical honesty, and the harleys therories on it's importance as the bedrock of a truly healthy relationship was the Holy Grail for me, I thought I had died and gone to Heaven (to use a worn out cliche).<P>I do know others (most) do not share this need with quite the intensity I do, and that is where I fail (but I try) in not being um...sensitive enough to others needs for some protection. I have thought about all this before (on other boards, in other places, where volatile issues are discussed). I truly think it is pretty much impossible to offend me, I really do like pretty much all people, and see worth just about everywhere. I pretty much judge people by their value, not their deficiencies, so is hard for me to be angry with anyone for very long (or at all mostly). And even though I sound sometimes like I blame thinker, or am angry at her, I am not, or only for a short while.... and she knows my weak spots like no one else, and what buttons to push. No, there is no hidden agenda, nor am I dysfunctional, I have my purposes here, and have specific reasons for almost everything I write. I cope by understanding in detail, the world I live in, how I fit, and why I do what I do.... the events of last 1 1/2 year have shook my world to it's core, caused a wide ranging reassesment of many things, you all have helped a great deal in that effort.... I cannot go forward with thinker, myself, or anyone else till I understand what the parameters are, what the choices and consequences are, and what works for me. So you see, I am responsible, quite so in fact, life is not simple it seems (a mistake I have been constantly readjusting for last 10 years or so), it is exceedingly complex, one cannot just do it, one cannot just crap or get off the pot, life is not about such simplistic platitudes. It takes time to understand it, and much effort such as I have done in public here. Believe me, this is not a game for me, it is life and death. I have made some serious mistakes in my life, I need to understand how that happened, and what the mistakes are and are not, how success and failure are truly measured, what the yardstick actually looks like. I will um....... "eliminate" (so much nicer that crap or worse) in due time, this is a process, it has a beginning and an end, the pieces are starting to come together, and I will take the action I deem best. For those of you who think I am full of hot air, thx for your assessment, I keep that in mind, for those of you who find my curiosity re human relationships relevant and thought provoking thx for your participation, for those of you who wish me goodwill thx for your support, for those (not many, maybe even none) who wish for my comeuppance, for being put in my place..... well, life does have a way of doing just that, hopefully no one derives any real pleasure from anothers misfortune if they choose wrongly and get their teeth kicked in. Ultimately I would like to think folks always hope for the best for anyone our lives touch, even the spouse that hurts us...... ya know?<P>Twyla, you brought up a topic I have thought about a great deal. Sometimes I do get angry and think the hell with it, if I can't be accepted for who I am (here or anywhere) I will just stop talking to anyone (including thinker) and withdraw in my own shell, and build up a good head of resentment and illwill for the world that won't accept me. But that is the road to madness, so I sorta can't do it, cause my sense of balance won't let me, but I sure want to, I think about killing myself sometimes for the same reason (I guess I would be an in your face suicider), and that scares the crap out of me.... I mean I am kidding right? just being dramatic right? I never would do such a thing right? I use to think sucicides were such losers, I mean I pitied them an all, what a loss, so dumb, must have been mentally unbalanced or something..... I will never think that again. That was just one of the sobering revelations I have had to work through, rather than bury and push away. I don't talk about that one here (although interstingly sem did in a post today, it was eerie, I coulda wrote it), but one of the things I have had to do, was figure out why to live at all. Whats the point if my life isn't mine, but is owed, owned, committed, call it what you want, to others.... why don't I count? Why is it always about others, why is selfish a despicable mindset? Why must I fit my peer groups perceptions or I am unworthy. <P><BR>Some of you have leveled horrendous blows to my self-worth, my self-esteem, literaly sent me reeling with the magnitude of your disrespectful judgements, in the guise of being helpful, you bash me for your agendas. Note, I am not complaining, I seek uncensored raw feedback, I want to know how I am really seen, and I don't believe anyone has deliberate illwill. I don't have to believe it, but I do gauge my committment to my path and my self-esteem by how unbalanced a particular feedback makes me. Plus the peculiar circumstances of this board mean one may be the target of displaced anger, and when it is me, I am happy to fill that need. I think in moderation it is therapeutic, and a legitimate way folks on this board can "give" to each other.<P>Marriage, love, vows, divorce are powerful issues, they bring the best and the worst out of us. The principles are unclear, and in great dispute, the stakes are out lives. I need to get this right. Just as many of you think I go too far, many of you don't go nearly far enough. Anything can be obsessive, including saving a marriage. Anything can be ill-advised, including saving a marriage. There is nothing inherently nobel, or self justifying about saving a marriage. This was the first thing I had to deal with, what is important, the people or the marriage. While seemingly similar, the focus is vastly different. If marriage is the focus, we don't worry about whether the people should be there, this is perhaps most emphazied by chaz's approach (and simililar long-term single-minded focus (and all it's attendant rationalizations) on the marriage. Ok, if that is so, then one should be able to explain (or present the compelling logic) why we should value marriage to that extent. <P>That is a legitimate question, but one that evokes much emotional response (usually a trouncing of the unfeeling uncaring individual foolish enough to posesuch a question). The other extreme is to place no value on the marriage at all, but only on the mental health of the people, and if either one is better served leaveing the marriage, then it ends....I argue this point (not that I necessarily believe it completely, I am somewhere to this side of the middle though), when I ask about fitting, and point out vows are meaningless, and potentially harmful, feel nice platitudes at best. Why, because they cannot be demonstrated by any form of logical analysis to apply in a helpful way to the psychological health of an individual, they are a crutch, at best, and a foundation built on sand. Anyways so I theorize, and if I am right, then we (our species) should change the way we go about mating and the institution of marriage, and the resolutions of these kinds of concerns are what I must do, as part of my recovery..it I am to be the committed H many of you advocate for..... that will not happen without this kind of discussion. If I cannot have it within the context of marital reconcilliation, where can I. And if I can't have it at all, how do I practice radical honesty? I don't understnd. <P>Is MB only about pre-approved issues, did I somehow slip through a screening filter? Do I somehow contaminate the process cause I am indeed unworthy? Or do my needs just not count, cause they violate poja, I can only have feelings/concerns my w (or my peers) approve of? If I were here with a hidden agenda of malice to my wife, or no intention of recovery. Or maybe a political agenda of marital reform, then I should go, that would violate the purpose of this board. But in fact I am here for the same reason everyone else is, to find the truth of my marriage. If we are gonna split hairs and say you should only be here if you are enthusiastic about "staying" married to this particular person....then shouldn't every bs who says I quit, and files for divorce leave? Does anyone suggest to such folks they don't belong here? They violate the spirit of the board? I am sorry I am not a remorseful wonderful ws(well not really), like trueheart and STL, and others canonized here, I am just what I am, what would you have me be, someone else, if so, then who would my wife be married too (?)...not me obviously. But I am here to recover (or not) via MB principles, and one important one is radical honesty....that has got to include the honest answer to a fundamental question.... do I choose this marriage.....well at the moment I do....but if I am going to continue to do so, I need to know the answers to the stuff I bring up here...right?<P>Twyla, re your specific point in this thread. Thinker reading stuff she is just not equipped to handle, even though it is not meant for her directly. We have discussed this, she sorta agreed not to read anymore of my posts without my permission....sorta like reading my journal...you guys are my journal, I don't do well with solitary thoughts, I NEED feedback, peer revies, am I to be denied this journal? What does that do to me? Maybe thinker benefits, and I just become closed off, remorseful, and resentful? Some would say, sill snl, just choose not too, well jeez, if any of us could just choose our emotions would we even be here? Why not just choose to stop loving and leave alltogether, save a lot of trouble. <P>This weekend thinker became very angry at me, and she deliberately went and searched and read every post I made lately for the sole purpose of finding stuff to get me with. She got extremely angry, through the divorce word around quite abit, LB'ed like crazy, drove me from the house....... this is important to me, that she does this, that this is how she handles the gift I give her, and yeah it is a gift.... I am sharing deep innermost stuff, feelings, something I haven't done for years, I closed her off, she was dangerous to my well-being. Yes, it isn't pretty stuff, but it is real, it is me, and she is not taking very good care of it.<P>IMO couples who choose to come here do so knowing (or soon find out) the consequences for doing so, this is not a poja issue. Ones thoughts never are, whether they be a journal, mentoring with a trusted advisior, individual counselling, or participation on a board (although the amount of time is a poja issue, no argument there). Each spouse has a choice, to read or not to read, the principle is rule of protection, if you cannot honor the thoughts by thanking and protecting ones spouse for revealing them, then don't ask.....or read. By reading and LB Terry is not protecting me, and that is important to me, she has never protected me this way, and has to earn my trust, how can she do so if I have to hide my thoughts from her. I should be able to trust she will not view/ask me stuff if she is gonna LB. Her behaviour tells me she is more concerned about herself than me....again something that has always been true, and if it is going to remain true, I want to know that, so I can decide whether it is ok or not.<P>So that is my poja twyla, each spouse can request the other not to violate their private thoughts without permission, or leave it up to them if they agree not to LB....seems to cover it, and the ability of spouses to do this honestly is also worthy of discovering methinks.<P><BR>chaz, I agree with your concern over the power of negative thinking, but I really do think you don't understand me at all (which is understandable). I am not much of a negative thinker, I am pretty much a optimist to the point of dysfunctionality, I just refuse to give up on stuff, or accept defeat. What you see (and concerns you I think) is my willingness to travel the darker and more controversial roads of marital/love theory. I only do so for completeness, to do otherwise is to preselect the outcome, and in so doing, potentially commit even greater harm. The dark side may be annoying, and distressing, therein lie our fears, and depression, and hopelessness, but good mental health requires we face the darkness, not run away from it, and in so doing we oft times find the real truth, not the skewed truth. You don't really know if you are doing the right thing, but somehow you arrived at enough of an understanding to proceed.....time will tell if you are right, but I suspect you did some thinking about it, in your own way, in your own time....... that is all I am doing too, I will act, am acting, and will continue to act. But I will also keep searching for the truth, until I am content I have looked enuf.<P>The energy is not wasted chaz, if I convince myself it is hopeless I can proceed thusly...... If I cannot convince myself it is hopeless, I can proceed accordingly, but if I skip this part and just guess, or follow others paths, then I risk a lot of energy doing the wrong thing, a total waste. The search itself is a reward just in the doing, didn't you tell me that, anything worth doing is worth working hard for? This is hard work, self-introspection, discernment of life-principles is not easy...right?<P>btw, I am not CHATTING, you will notice I post very little fluff. Nor can thinker dictate how I need to recover (or i her), but she can request poja at some point over time issues, and we are struggling with that.<P>cali, I missed whatever went on today, but I trust your goodwill, and have no problem with your expressions of whatever you need to say. Plz do not restrain yourself on my account, just do so if you feel you need to for you. Not to mention you know my biggest EN is total honesty from all who cross my path. But I do prefer not to be gratuitiously cussed out, or recreationally character assasinated. (and you have not done so).<p>[This message has been edited by sad_n_lonely (edited September 26, 2001).]

SnL,<BR>Thanks for the well thought out response..not to rub it in, but right now in Hawaii it is beautiful and sunny and I have a cold too....so much for the climate.<P>hmmmmm...while all your points were relevent, the one that I identify with most was the phrase "do I choose marriage..."<P>SnL, you're completely right...it's a choice..boy, have I fought with this one for years. Divorcing the first time around was enough to make me fear the committment of marriage this time...so I did the "wise" thing and said the vows, ceremony, public acceptance...all the things that went along with that little piece of paper, didn't matter. If I didn't get married and it didn't work out, maybe it wouldn't hurt so bad. So, we lived together and egotistically I believed that our committment of the heart would shield me...I think foolish is the proper description for this type of thinking.<P>Well, I was wrong...hurt just as bad..maybe worse...but what is really hard to take this time around is knowing (by the recovery actions I've taken..both personal and for the relationship) that if I had tried harder, had some guidance, and answered some of the same questions you pose first time around, I probably could have avoided not only that first divorce, but also my contributions to the problems in this relationship. It's not the vows or lack of them that insure a successful relationship...it is the willingness of 2 people to do their level best not to make the other unhappy. For whatever reason...couldn't/wouldn't do that first time around...but have this time. <P>One revelation I will share with you is that first time around I did have more of the "me" side working...meet my needs, listen to my side, hear my truths, but wasn't willing to extend this courtesy to him, or would but only half heartedly. Why that attitude changed this time..who knows? I like to think maybe I've learned a little something along the way...but for the life of me, I can't put it in words.<P>Anyway, I guess the only thing I would say at this point is that you are probably a long way from making a decision about yourself and your marriage (some of those questions you seek answers for...well..some just don't have answers)and to just be careful not to hurt yourself or someone else. Good advice for Thinker, and the rest of us as well...myself included.<P>T

snl, i havent much time this morn but<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>if I convince myself it is hopeless I can proceed thusly...... If I cannot convince myself it is hopeless, I can proceed accordingly, but if I skip this part and just guess, or follow others paths, then I risk a lot of energy doing the wrong thing, a total waste. The search itself is a reward just in the doing, didn't you tell me that, anything worth doing is worth working hard for? This is hard work, self-introspection, discernment of life-principles is not easy...right?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>that is the most self-defeating thing i think ive heard in a very long time. self-introspection isnt aobut convincing yourself something anything is hopeless, its discovery re-learning. bringing about a positive healing in your spirit.<P>proving something is hopeless is just that.. did you intend to say something radically different here? if not your assurtions about acting and trying and controling the negative thinking as awash in excuses and lack focus. <P>people are not awash in the sea of life being tossed about as though without will. they choose their destiny with the choices they make. your suggesting that by not choosing a positive outcome for yourself, not suggesting staying here, and concentrating on "proving the hoplessness of it" is just feable. <P>i dont content that you choose to stay out of blind adhearance to your vows SNL, I do however expect a man to honor his word to the best of his ability. if after having given that effort, and its possible that your exhausted by that attempt, you as a couple cannot find the "emotional health" to stay as one, then it is prudent not for just you, but for both of you to end the suffering. I just remain unconvinced that youve made that effort.<P>------------------<BR>in loving service<BR>chaz

S-n-L...<P>You may doubt this, but I do understand what you are saying, and oddly enough can identify with some things and agree with them. I have been on both sides of this ugly coin we call infidelity. I am not looking to be canonized nor deified here at MB. My sole purpose for being here is that of helping and challenging, especially WS still in the fog, to come out of it before making decisions that affect a whole lot of people. <P>I am not into judging, bashing, or slamming anyone. I had great difficulty with OLG, in many of her posts, and finally had to quit responding, out of my own frustrations, realizing my responses were becoming increasingly intolerant of her ability or reluctance to open her eyes to what was happening. And indeed it took others, such as Twyla, to make me see that my frustrations weren't helping the cause. But, as a whole, I seek to help, not to be *right* or thrust upon some pedestal. If others can use my experiences and words to help them, so be it, and if not, I hope I invoke some thought process that allows them to see things maybe a bit differently than they have before. <P>I do not place any judgements on you, nor your search. Although some of your ideas seem rather extreme and radical from time to time, they are worth looking at and may indeed branch off to another set of questions and ideas that need more exploration, before coming back to the original query with an answer. I believe that the only thing I asked yesterday in posting was whether or not a relationship, person, or circumstance can be over analyzed? It seems that, to me, thinking and analyzing can be overdone to the extreme that it kills any emotion at all. This process is not for the timid, as you state, but it is also not one to be left to the analytical mind, totally, or computer dating would match everyone at a 100% success rate based on strict data collection.<P>But, again, my purpose here is not to be the "perfect WS", but to help others gain some understanding both of themselves, and relationships in general. I hope I have not offended or cast this image in anyway. I am far from perfect, or I would not have been a WS in the first place, and I do understand where you come from and your thought process. You are correct in that you post questions that others either have not thought of, or could not post. Does this make you bad? Not in anyway shape for form. Like you, I wish to invoke some thought process, that maybe you look to hard for the "perfect" answers, in a very imperfect situation. There will never be a cookie cutter approach to success in relationships since the dynamics change day after day, week after week, and year after year. Look at all the moral issues and relationship tenets that have changed in the past 40-50 years. One can never say that "THIS" approach will best work for relationships remaining stable. I believe there are safeguards, but they are up to the individual couple to pull from all the counselling, books, and life experiences, as well as their emotional bond, connection, and trust and honesty. The reason we have so many failures in relationships..is the people, not the relationships. Many of us have looked long and hard to find that mate that we choose to commit our life with. But where we fail is in our communication styles, our honesty, our display of that love. Again, change and growth...not rules, textbook analyses, or clinical labels.<P>I enjoy reading your views S-n-L, however extreme or radical. I do agree, as others have stated, that they seem to be negative in overtone, and can see why Thinker would feel the way she does. I also understand that there are two sides to each story, and depending on one's perception, which I think is a very powerful force, either of you can be right or wrong on any given day, in any given situation. <P>I am sorry that your situation is so difficult, as are many others here. I wish you the best in the future and hope for your recovery, no matter which path you and Thinker choose.<P>*Go confidently in the direction of your dreams.*<P>Trueheart

Is ok true, I just said canonized to make a point, it was no reflection on you, or any feelings of self you might have, or your efforts here. I just grabbed some names out of the hat at that point in the post, and you were in the hopper <P>My posts are negative, relative to some mindsets, but negative is a funny thing, an eye of beholder issue. And I do feel negative some.....but mostly I feel scared, and empowered, I have finally taken control of my life back. I may screw it up, but at least it is mine again, it has not been for a very long time. Nor do I think there is anything negative about seeking understanding and discerning truth, without preconceived ideas. I am well aware that it is just as wrong to think leaveing a marriage for a better fit is the solution to interpersonal conflict too. I am not trying to rationalize leaveing, but I am also not going to rationalize staying (something that also happens alot here). What I am doing is making sure I understand life, marriage, love, and what governs choices in these areas. When I feel I have done due diligence, I will proceed. I have rejected everything I believe, cause clearly something was not working, and rebuilding my belief system from the ground up, sometimes that is the only way to make a permanent repair to ones life (interestingly Dr. Phil says the same thing).

I dont disagree with you one bit on many points! Just make sure not to overthink things. Although they may not be as simple as some would believe, they are not as difficult as others would have them, as well. Again, perception...is it a mountain or a mole hill?? I think that answer lies in who we are and how we deal with life. Over analyzing the molehill, we find that the obstacle above ground, is really no obstacle at all, but when we find the maze of tunnels connecting to other mole hills and the complexity of the network, are we still left with a mole hill in our path? It all depends on our perception. I believe that, as you state, we should know who we are, but, as I have heard stated so often...control is an illusion. Do you control the situation or does the situation lead you to the choices you make? I agree that there are many in life that get/stay/give up marriage for all the wrong reasons. I have gotten so that I almost hate the word marriage at times. I prefer partnership, where my partner and I share equally in everything we do. We talk, share ideas, thoughts, fears and everything in between. But, like you, we had some hard choices to make. For us, going on as partners was our answer, but not before the foundation and groundwork were laid...not always easy to do after the A. Our perception was...we were happier together, more complete as partners than as sole proprietors, and above all else, the love we felt for each other, made the decisions right for us.<P>So, thank you for your response!! I wish you continued growth...and remember two things...<P>The only constant in life...is change! <BR>and...<BR>All growth involves a temporary, and total loss of safety nets.<P>I wish you well, my friend, no matter what decisions you come to.<P>*Go confidently in the direction of your dreams.*<P>Trueheart

<B>There is nothing inherently nobel, or self justifying about saving a marriage.</B><P>sigh, absent abuse i would disagree is it not nobel to honor your commitments? is it not nobel to care even in adversity for another? is it not nobel to find and enable love where once there was distain, hate, or simply the absence of it?<P>is it self justifying? i cant connect the two concepts together well, self justifying and nobel? to be selfish in ensuring your own mental and physical well being can be as giving an act as any other, it is a responsibility one must keep for themselves, does nobility include doing so at the expense or welfare of others? again i dont think so.<P><B>This was the first thing I had to deal with, what is important, the people or the marriage.</B><P>what is more important you mean, You or the marriage.<P>it is not impossible to care for both at the same time, the marriage and the individuals are different and do require seperate focus, but it is no more neccesary to throw out the marriage to concentrate on the individual than it is to remove an engine to change the oil.<P><B>While seemingly similar, the focus is vastly different. </B><P>Not really, for as the individuals gain personal and individual health, they gain perspective and the ability to give freely. to communicate without fear and to be honest without causing pain. Individual growth doesnt guarantee success in a current marriage, in fact it may prove to be what ends it, but the individual health is what will make the journey to either result one that can be looked upon as genuine and honest.<P><B>If marriage is the focus, we don't worry about whether the people should be there, this is perhaps most emphazied by chaz's approach (and simililar long-term single-minded focus (and all it's attendant rationalizations) on the marriage. Ok, if that is so, then one should be able to explain (or present the compelling logic) why we should value marriage to that extent. </B><P>where in the world do you get the idea that I believe in marriage above all else?? If your married to an addict, abuser, or in reality a real louser then it is your responsibility to protect yourself, mentally, physically, and spiritually. there are success stories in each of these catagories however, My relationship was commonly referred to as emotinally abusive and recently so. and through my personal growth i have changed the dynamics so that i no longer believe that to be the case. do i resent how things were? less and less everyday. <P>I was and am committed to ensuring my personal emotional and mental health, and if though my efforts things had not changed i was and am prepared to end this marriage. but i am choosing to do so with full awareness that anything less than my full committment to it all but guarantees failure. <P>that failure wouldnt be anyone elses to own except for me. not my wife, not the societal conventions of marriage, but my failure to commit wholely to what i promised. if having committed to this it doesnt work, then i have acted with honor and nobility. anything less and I have failed myself.<P>you see its not about marriage for the sake of marriage, its about integrity within myself, being honest with myself and holding myself accountable for my actions and commitments. <P><B>when I ask about fitting,</B><P>snl do you reject wholly the idea that those who successfully meet your needs Fit? <P>is it feasible that after all that time resisting others meeting your needs you broke down and allowed this one person the opportunity to meet those needs where you had chosen to not allow it before? that one moment when you dropped your guard and allowed it to happen is what is different about her and not the "Fit"?<P>and now you guard against letting your W meet those needs and see her as incapable of meeting them as all those other women who proceeded your OW.<P>this is complicated, yet not complex.<P><B>and point out vows are meaningless,</B><P>what rational points can you possibly make that example that vows are meaningless? ive not seen one argument or point that would make me conclude that in the least. <P>vows in of themselves are not without meaning, are you trying to make the assurtion that there are valid reasons for not honoring vows? now that may be true i can even endorse that and have always promoted the protection of oneself in the face of abuse, addition etc.. but there is an honorable way and a not so honorable way. why would anyone choose a less than honorable way? <P>the road i started down was less than honorable and when i gained personal strength i realized it.<P><B>and potentially harmful,</B><P>only if clung too in the face of abuse, is it harmful if the relationship is static not abusive but not nurturing? id say no. why because happiness, emotional health and growth is not dependant upon your spouse, i used to believe it was an essential componant and hated my wife for not making me happy, but i was wrong, my happiness doesnt rely on her at all. she infact is the benifactor of my personal happiness, as i am the benifactor in hers.<P><B>feel nice platitudes at best. Why, because they cannot be demonstrated by any form of logical analysis to apply in a helpful way to the psychological health of an individual</B><P>i am not sure how youve justified this in your mind, but to say and do are fondational building blocks of mental health. to be honest and have personal integrity within yourself to yourself is an absolute must for your mental health. if you cannot adhear to the vows or promises you make to yourself then you abandon yourself. <P>your assurtion that vows (marriage only?) are platitudes causes mistrust in me, how can i believe what you say if your unwilling to commit to your word?<P><BR>------------------<BR>in loving service<BR>chaz<p>[This message has been edited by chazbutler (edited September 26, 2001).]