<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Spiro:<BR><STRONG>He is very UNhappily married. He is staying that way because of reasons that I understand. </STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Forgive me, BUT WHAT A CROCK OF S**T!!!<P>I've often wondered - When he was out wh**ing around, did he say he was soooo unhappy... or didn't the w***e's care?<P>Anyone that messes around with someone who's married is just as wrong as the married one.<P>Quack Quack.<p>[ October 20, 2001: Message edited by: billbailey ]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Estes49:<BR><STRONG><BR>Adultery always damages everyone involved, the adulterers, the betrayed spouses, the children, the families, and the community.<P>If your marriage is wrong, be honest with your husband. End it. Make choices that show honor and courage.<BR></STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Amen!!!!!<P>[/QB][/QUOTE]<BR>One of my favorite sayings is, "Character is what you are when no one is looking."<BR>[/QB][/QUOTE]<P>I'm going to make that my signature for my email - I love it. Especially since email is the only way I can deal with my H right now. Quack Quack.<P>Bless you for being so kind and gentle. I know I have a caustic tongue and someone should whack my fingers when I really get going, but it's hard to be so controlled when you feel so passionately about something. I admire your gentleness - and wish I had more of it.<p>[ October 20, 2001: Message edited by: billbailey ]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by billbailey:<BR>[QB][/QB]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> i totally agree!

Why is it so hard to move on? When you deeply Love someone and you see the person can just move on and be with someonelse or not even care that they hurt you is devastating. If anyone knows of some good sites or areas to look into about dealing with moving on please post.<p>[ October 19, 2001: Message edited by: Tomstocks ]

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Tomstocks,<P>Here are a few sites that you might want to checkout. Maybe you can find something helpful.<P>I am sad that you are hurting so. The reason<BR>it is hard to go on is that your entire reality base has shifted. Things you trusted to be true have proven not to be as you believed. You are justifiably frightened of the future, wounded by betrayal, and grieving the loss of your W and your marriage and your family.<P>It may not help much right now, but you will get better with time. You really will! Be patient with yourself as your heal. Are there any divorce recovery groups in your area? What about church support? Are you close to your family?<P>One thing my sister did was to keep a journal. It was helpful to look back at earlier entries in the journal to see that she really was making progress. Another thing she did was to hang a calendar in an obvious place. She put a red star sticker on bad days and a gold star for good days. Sometimes when things were really turbulent,<BR>she would put one color star on in the morning and another color in the afternoon. Anyway, she said she could actually look back and see that there were starting to be more gold stars than red ones. It was visual confirmation that things were getting better.<P>Keep posting when you need someone to talk to. Take care. Estes<BR> <A HREF="http://pages.prodigy.com/divorceplus/div00.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://pages.prodigy.com/divorceplus/div00.htm</A> <BR> <A HREF="http://www.divorcesurvivalguide.com/archive.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.divorcesurvivalguide.com/archive.htm</A> <BR> <A HREF="http://www.divorcesource.com/info/recovery/energy.shtml" TARGET=_blank>http://www.divorcesource.com/info/recovery/energy.shtml</A> <BR> <A HREF="http://www.12stepdivorce.org/" TARGET=_blank>http://www.12stepdivorce.org/</A> <BR> <A HREF="http://www.divorcetransitions.com/books/drj.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.divorcetransitions.com/books/drj.htm</A> <BR> <A HREF="http://www.betterdivorce.com/divorce-support/index.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.betterdivorce.com/divorce-support/index.htm</A>

Thank You Estes,<BR> I feel you are right and its great to have support from people on this site such as yourself who are so thoughtful and helping. I talk with my mom & sister alot about my situation and they are supportive, last friday I went out with my sister but I didn't really enjoy myself. <P>You are right about the time also. I have to be stronger and think of her actions and how she is handling this. She always goes out and spends the night at times with someonelse, parties and just continues to make the same mistakes, but she feels she isn't doing anything wrong. She feels shes a good person and in the same breath that she says that she will go with different guys and do cocaine and drink all night, but she is a good girl, LOL what a joke! I'm getting stronger and looking more at her actions then her POTENTIAL. It's just terrible when they look you right in the face and tell you one thing while they do another. At least now just recently I noticed myself looking at her differently then before. All my suspicions from the beginning are accurate and its getting easier to let go because I'm starting to realize that she will never change because she doesn't think she needs to. Shes a good girl so she says. Some people just live in denial and instead of identifying it they run from it when everyone finds them out. Did you ever see these type of people that when everyone in a small town labels them as a coke whore or slut (pardon my language) they move somewherelse where they get a fresh start because noone knows them and they do the samething there.<P>I will never in the future get into a relationship with someone with low character and morals! I'm starting to believe people like that don't change. I should know better!<P>Estes thank you for the links to those other sites [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

I just got this in an email from Dr. Harley that was in the recent newsletter and I think it is so true. Also, I love the article with the analogy pertaining to the Renter vs. Buyer agreement on marriage.<P>I use to tell my ex that change is good! She always said that she wanted someone to accept her the way she is, sheesh I wish she would read Dr. Harleys newsletter.<P>Dr Harley states:<BR>In this study, newlyweds who divorced within 6 years were<BR>compared with those who remained married during those years.<BR>It was found that the divorced couples tended not to respond<BR>to each other's complaints as quickly as those who remained<BR>married. These divorced couples ignored each other's complaints<BR>until they became intensely negative. Those who remained married,<BR>on the other hand, went to work addressing each other's<BR>complaints soon after they were mentioned, not giving the<BR>complaint a chance to build up.<P>My experience with couples agrees with the results of this study.<BR>In successful marriages, spouses expect to change to accommodate<BR>each other's needs, so when a spouse registers a complaint, it's<BR>a signal for action. In failed marriages, on the other hand,<BR>spouses expect to be accepted as they are, without change. A<BR>complaint is interpreted as an unwillingness to love<BR>unconditionally, a failure of the complaining spouse. So instead<BR>of adjusting to the complaint, the defense is offered, "if you<BR>really loved me, you would not try to change me. You would let<BR>me continue to do whatever it is I'm doing."<P><BR>This is so true! Tom<P>[ October 20, 2001: Message edited by: Tomstocks ]<p>[ October 22, 2001: Message edited by: Tomstocks ]

Spiro,<P>You have been getting some very good input here. I will not repeat the wise things others have said. But there are a few I would like to add.<P>You may want to take a much closer look at your OM. What kind of a man seeks comfort outside his marriage when his wife is having difficulties? She is depressed. Gee I wonder why? I know that when my ex-husband was involved in his affairs I became depressed. I was depressed because I could not understand what was going on in my life and no one would be honest enough to tell me. My H and his OW'en certainly did not care enough about me to spend time with me, to help me support our family, clean house, raise our son, work, etc etc. So does that mean that he was justified in cheating on me? I think not. <P>It also bothers me that you are having an affair with this man and you have access to her medical information. It's almost scary. So she knows nothing of you and you even have access to her most personal medical information. I feel very sorry for her. I do not know what your position and your OM's are but could there be a professional breach going on?<P>I am not trying to be mean to you here. I am trying to be real. Yes, you are hurting his wife in a terrible way. Do you think that your affair is going to do anything other then throw her into an even deeper depression? Your OM should be home taking care of his wife.<P>Is this man really what you want for yourself? A man who would treat his wife this way? He will do the same to you given time. You see, the state of his marriage is 50% his responsibility. He does not have the skills to keep a marriage together. So if the two of you were to ever get married, you can expect the same fate.<P>If your marriage were truely over emotionally, you would have been able to tell your H about your affair. His response would have been something like "Good for you. I want to see you happy." Is that the type of response you expect to get from him when he finds out. (Have no doubt your H and your OM's wife will find out.) <P>A marriage is not over until the divorce papers are signed. I have never seen a marriage contract that says "to forsake all others until I feel like not forsaking all other." None of us are really worth anything more then our word. If a person takes a vow and cannot live up to it, then what is that person worth? <P>Your statement that you will end your affair and your marriage. And then tell your OM that you would be willing to start over with him AFTER he gets a divorce is very healthy and sane. I hope that you will do that. And I hope that you will give yourself about a year after your divorce to find yourself and recover before you get involved with anyone again. If you did this, you could start a new relationship with a healthy foundation.<P>Why do you say that your marriage is over? What are the problems that they cannot be repaired? Have you read the material on this web site and the book Surviving an Affair? If not, please do so before you give up on your marriage. There must have been love in your marriage at one time.. it can be rebuilt if both you and your H will work on it. Why don't you share a little more about your marriage here? What is (or is not) going on there?<P>my 2 cents<P>Z

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by zorweb:<BR><STRONG>Spiro,<P>You have been getting some very good input here. I will not repeat the wise things others have said. But there are a few I would like to add.<P>You may want to take a much closer look at your OM. What kind of a man seeks comfort outside his marriage when his wife is having difficulties? She is depressed. Gee I wonder why? I know that when my ex-husband was involved in his affairs I became depressed. I was depressed because I could not understand what was going on in my life and no one would be honest enough to tell me. My H and his OW'en certainly did not care enough about me to spend time with me, to help me support our family, clean house, raise our son, work, etc etc. So does that mean that he was justified in cheating on me? I think not. <P>It also bothers me that you are having an affair with this man and you have access to her medical information. It's almost scary. So she knows nothing of you and you even have access to her most personal medical information. I feel very sorry for her. I do not know what your position and your OM's are but could there be a professional breach going on?<P>I am not trying to be mean to you here. I am trying to be real. Yes, you are hurting his wife in a terrible way. Do you think that your affair is going to do anything other then throw her into an even deeper depression? Your OM should be home taking care of his wife.<P>Is this man really what you want for yourself? A man who would treat his wife this way? He will do the same to you given time. You see, the state of his marriage is 50% his responsibility. He does not have the skills to keep a marriage together. So if the two of you were to ever get married, you can expect the same fate.<P>If your marriage were truely over emotionally, you would have been able to tell your H about your affair. His response would have been something like "Good for you. I want to see you happy." Is that the type of response you expect to get from him when he finds out. (Have no doubt your H and your OM's wife will find out.) <P>A marriage is not over until the divorce papers are signed. I have never seen a marriage contract that says "to forsake all others until I feel like not forsaking all other." None of us are really worth anything more then our word. If a person takes a vow and cannot live up to it, then what is that person worth? <P>Your statement that you will end your affair and your marriage. And then tell your OM that you would be willing to start over with him AFTER he gets a divorce is very healthy and sane. I hope that you will do that. And I hope that you will give yourself about a year after your divorce to find yourself and recover before you get involved with anyone again. If you did this, you could start a new relationship with a healthy foundation.<P>Why do you say that your marriage is over? What are the problems that they cannot be repaired? Have you read the material on this web site and the book Surviving an Affair? If not, please do so before you give up on your marriage. There must have been love in your marriage at one time.. it can be rebuilt if both you and your H will work on it. Why don't you share a little more about your marriage here? What is (or is not) going on there?<P>my 2 cents<P>Z</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Dear Z,<P> Thank you so much for the advice and for not being "mean". My marriage?? It has been over for years, I tried staying in it, because I thought it was the right thing. I was going to church on a regular basis and I thought God wanted people to stay married no matter what. I really wouldn't call it a marriage for the last five years. He travels a lot and we just drifted apart. I still stayed in the marriage because I thought that was the normal thing to do. I was working a lot of hours when he was home on the weekends. I decided to move to another state with him and give up my job in hopes we could at least try to build some kind of relationship. So I stayed home cooked and cleaned and cleaned and cleaned until I thought I would go nuts. So then I decided to volunteer in a nursing home. That was great it gave me something to look forward to. That worked until one of the employees just got to be too much (another story). I then thought I would just work part time. Well part time went to full time and then over time. I swear, I am not at all bragging, but I have had many oppurtunities to have an affair, but wouldn't dream of it. I honestly never thought I could such a thing. I really did have a close relationship with God, until I started working so much and back sliding. Any this guy kept coming to see me at work. I just figured his marriage was as dead as mine or why else would he be interested in me? I honestly, thought it was meant to be. I know now that is stupid and naive. My H knows I am interested in someone else. I sure don't give him the details. I don't want to hurt anybody EVER! And as far as his W, she doesn't know anything at all about me. She is very well known in this community through her profession. She is highly professional and that seems to be her life. I only mentioned her records, because if I mentioned that she was depressed, people on here would say "sure that is what he is telling you". I plan to separate from H. We both agree that it is over and we will separate peacefully. Neither one of us are greedy or out to get the other. You know it isn't easy being in this position and yes I do agree it is best to stay away from the OM. I am trying really hard to do that. Thank you for asking. It has helped a lot just typing this.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Spiro:<BR><STRONG><P>Dear Z,<P> Thank you so much for the advice and for not being "mean". My marriage?? It has been over for years, I tried staying in it, because I thought it was the right thing. I was going to church on a regular basis and I thought God wanted people to stay married no matter what. I really wouldn't call it a marriage for the last five years. He travels a lot and we just drifted apart. I still stayed in the marriage because I thought that was the normal thing to do. I was working a lot of hours when he was home on the weekends. I decided to move to another state with him and give up my job in hopes we could at least try to build some kind of relationship. So I stayed home cooked and cleaned and cleaned and cleaned until I thought I would go nuts. So then I decided to volunteer in a nursing home. That was great it gave me something to look forward to. That worked until one of the employees just got to be too much (another story). I then thought I would just work part time. Well part time went to full time and then over time. I swear, I am not at all bragging, but I have had many oppurtunities to have an affair, but wouldn't dream of it. I honestly never thought I could such a thing. I really did have a close relationship with God, until I started working so much and back sliding. Any this guy kept coming to see me at work. I just figured his marriage was as dead as mine or why else would he be interested in me? I honestly, thought it was meant to be. I know now that is stupid and naive. My H knows I am interested in someone else. I sure don't give him the details. I don't want to hurt anybody EVER! And as far as his W, she doesn't know anything at all about me. She is very well known in this community through her profession. She is highly professional and that seems to be her life. I only mentioned her records, because if I mentioned that she was depressed, people on here would say "sure that is what he is telling you". I plan to separate from H. We both agree that it is over and we will separate peacefully. Neither one of us are greedy or out to get the other. You know it isn't easy being in this position and yes I do agree it is best to stay away from the OM. I am trying really hard to do that. Thank you for asking. It has helped a lot just typing this.</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Oh Yeah, I also wanted to mention that I did read a lot of the marriage builders information. That is one reason I decided to stop this relationship. I saw too many people in so much pain and I didn't want to be the cause of anyones pain ever... I am thinking, that if we end this now, she will never know about me. This is very difficult and I deserve everything I get. You seem very wise and I appreciate your input.

Spiro,<P>Perhaps it will help to look at your current discomfort as a valuable learning experience rather than a punishment (i.e., getting what you deserve). Everyone makes mistakes. A wise person learns from her mistakes and vows to make better choices. Best wishes to you in your future decisions. Estes

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Estes49:<BR><STRONG>Spiro,<P>Perhaps it will help to look at your current discomfort as a valuable learning experience rather than a punishment (i.e., getting what you deserve). Everyone makes mistakes. A wise person learns from her mistakes and vows to make better choices. Best wishes to you in your future decisions. Estes</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Dear Estes,<P> You are right, I never thought of it like that. By the way, how is your daughter in law?

Thanks for asking about our situation, Spiro,<P>Nothing decisive yet. DIL wants my S to move to her state/town, but continues to email and receive phone calls from OM. My S says he won't give up his job and move until she cuts off all contact with OM. She is at S's house right now for their son's adnoid surgery on Monday (Son took care of all that planning.) She will take GS back to her town after his recouperation. Poor little kid. He's been back and forth so often that he refers to Mommy's house and Daddy's house but doesn't ever speak of "my house." A lot depends on DIL's willingness to give up contact with OM. If she can't do that, I'm sure D is just a matter of time and my S will file for custody. This is all so sad.

Dear Estes,<P> Your son seems to be a very smart person. I hope it works out for both of them. I think its neat that all three of them are together right now, before the surgery. That could bring them all back together. You never know.. I believe everything happens for a reason. I'm just curios, do you have deep resentment for your DIL?? If I had a son in law or a daughter in law who did that to my child, I would be furious. Isn't that funny coming from me? I mean the situation I'm in? Just goes to show how we can make up so many excuses for ourselves and convince ourselves that what we are doing is right.

Spiro,<P>It might surprise you to know that I love my DIL. We have been very close for a long time. She and her sister have been like daughters to us. That's part of what makes this all very sad. We do not speak of their problems the rare times we see each other or email. I have to walk a fine line between support and mettling. <P>I helped S investigate the discoveries of d-day. DIL had left with no hint of an A, just, "I need to find myself." S accidentally discovered it a month later and was crushed. It was very traumatic to say the least, especially as I saw my "child" suffering so. People would ask if there was an OM, and we said, "Of course not. She would never do that!" - naive us. I have felt disgust, anger, resentment - the whole bag of emotions. I hate what she has done. But I do not hate her. It's like what others say here, she has become another person. I think that what I hate the most is that she has hurt my grandson terribly. My S, too, but he's an adult. He will cope.<P>It is a strange feeling to have these emotions toward someone you love.<P>I am sorry to see the pain she is in now. I will always remember the relationship we had. DIL is a child of a disfunctional family and a victim for sexual abuse. Her history has stacked the cards against her. In a way, I feel sorry for her. At the same time, I am 100% sure that the A is a result of her deliberate choices. She was so deceitful and dishonest. <P>I forgive her. I wish her a recovery from her emotional illness. I honestly do not know if their marriage can recover. If it does, it will be a new relationship as will my relationship with her.<P>This is where I see this thread and your situation as being so important. Character does count. Character is the choices one makes when the situation gets tough. It's not hard to make an easy decision. But it takes courage and character to make the right choices in difficult circumstances. Because of coming to MB, you have the change now to make the right choices. You seem to be making the choices that will keep you from feeling the self-recrimination that DIL is feeling now. As I posted to you earlier, everyone makes mistakes, even people of good character. What one does to address those mistakes is the proof of that character. <P>Keeping you in my thoughts, Estes<P>Sorry for the long post. I guess I am venting. I just believe so strongly in making the right choices as hard as that can be. Estes

Estes,<P> I'm glad you forgive your daughter in law. She needs all the love and support she can get. <P> Doing the right thing on my part is so very difficult. I hate myself for getting into this mess.<P> I tried to stay away from him. You know I can turn my phone off at home, I can turn my cell phone off, I can trash the e-mail, but when he calls my office and I see his name on the phone, it is very difficult. It doesn't help when he tells me he has been up all night either. <P> I appreciate your advice and you being so kind.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Estes49:<BR><STRONG>Spiro,<P><BR>This is where I see this thread and your situation as being so important. Character does count. Character is the choices one makes when the situation gets tough. It's not hard to make an easy decision. But it takes courage and character to make the right choices in difficult circumstances. Because of coming to MB, you have the change now to make the right choices. You seem to be making the choices that will keep you from feeling the self-recrimination that DIL is feeling now. As I posted to you earlier, everyone makes mistakes, even people of good character. What one does to address those mistakes is the proof of that character. <P>Keeping you in my thoughts, Estes<P>Sorry for the long post. I guess I am venting. I just believe so strongly in making the right choices as hard as that can be. Estes</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> Dear ESTES, <BR> You are soooooooo right about character and how everyone makes mistakes because we all do. You hit the nail on the head in stating that "It's what one does to address those mistakes that is the proof of that character". I believe the characteristic one needs in order to learn from a mistake is Personal Growth, when you have this in your character you will be the type of person that wants to better themselve and in fact are open to change.<P>Some important characteristics I look for in a person I would marry is Honesty, Personal Growth, Good Morals & Ethics. Alot of people confuse Personality Traits with characteristic traits as they (PT)include funny, outgoing, cheerful, sexy & alluring just to name a few.<P>Estes please don't ever feel your posts are too long as I enjoy reading them and gain such helpful insight. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Even when we are aware and knowledgable in certain areas it helps very much to hear it from others. I often wonder how people that are cheats & liars (I call them Players) react when they stumble across Marriage Builders and read the posts. You would hope that they would reconsider their actions.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Spiro:<BR><STRONG>Estes,<P> I'm glad you forgive your daughter in law. She needs all the love and support she can get. <P> Doing the right thing on my part is so very difficult. I hate myself for getting into this mess.<P> I tried to stay away from him. You know I can turn my phone off at home, I can turn my cell phone off, I can trash the e-mail, but when he calls my office and I see his name on the phone, it is very difficult. It doesn't help when he tells me he has been up all night either. <P> I appreciate your advice and you being so kind.</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>bump