Character & Morals! - Marriage Builders® Forums

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As a psychology major myself I really enjoy this site as I feel it is the best on the internet relating to marriage and relationships. I'm 37 years of age and some time ago I had the opportunity to do some 12 step method work with AA and really enjoy working with and helping people. But there is one area that I see not covered much and how to deal with this when it arises, this area pertains to a person with weak characteristics & morals. Usually like Dr. Harley states; a spouse has an affair with someone who is giving them something that is missing in the relationship/marriage. This is a good concept and tool to use to help get the r/m back on track when trying to find out what is missing in the r/m. But what if there isn't anything missing (Drastic) as we hear about from time to time? You see sometimes we end up in relationships with people lacking good character/morals and in the beginning of the relationship these (I call them PLAYERS) individuals are the greatest acters/actresses you will meet. Eventually the dirty laundry comes out in the wash! Meaning they will eventually get caught as it could be a matter of days, months or years but the truth comes out.So I would like to point out that sometimes it's not that a person is not trying or not giving another person something that they need, it's just simply that the other person lacks good character or morals. Dr. Barbara De Angelis states when a person is lacking these sometimes you just have to "remember them for who they really are". This helps a person to accept the situation and move on. Alot of times we beat ourselves up after our spouse/partner betrays us. To help get through this remember what they actually did and don't keep hanging on to their "POTENTIAL". This obviously would be the last step after Dr. Harley's methods. Remember: If It Looks Like a Duck, Walks Like a Duck and Sounds Like a Duck. IT'S PROBABLY A DUCK![ October 18, 2001: Message edited by: Tomstocks ]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tomstocks: Dr. Barbara De Angelis states when a person is lacking these sometimes you just have to "remember them for who they really are". This helps a person to accept the situation and move on. Alot of times we beat ourselves up after our spouse/partner betrays us. To help get through this remember what they actually did and don't keep hanging on to their "POTENTIAL". This obviously would be the last step after Dr. Hawley's methods.Remember: If It Looks Like a Duck, Walks Like a Duck and Sounds Like a Duck. IT'S PROBABLY A DUCK!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Tom,I have been trying to accept this in my situation. I have always thought about my H's potential instead of looking at the things he has done or hasn't done. When you care deeply for someone and have been with them for more than half your life, it's so hard to see them as their "deeds" as opposed to their soul or potential. Jo

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Resilient: Tom,I have been trying to accept this in my situation. I have always thought about my H's potential instead of looking at the things he has done or hasn't done. When you care deeply for someone and have been with them for more than half your life, it's so hard to see them as their "deeds" as opposed to their soul or potential. Jo<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> JO, I too am guilty of this as I believe in trying to work things out as I have given my recent relationship 6 or 7 chances. I was involved with someone who is and can be a great person, someone that I would love to spend the rest of my life with. We are unbelievably compatible! But her lifestyle and partying that she continues to do since she was 18 is not what I want or need in my life. I'm 37 she's 33, being the person that I am (very deep & understanding) I tried to work things out with her. I see such a good hearted and careing person with many nice personable qualities. She would be nice to be friends with and have fun but when it comes to marriage and family she cannot get away from her lifestyle and addiction. I thought she would grow up and want to better her life but no. You see I was hanging on to her potential and not reality. She would constantly betray me in many ways as she had no honesty and loyalty. I ended it by just looking at her actions, not her words because she writes letters and poems but as they say talk is cheap and believe me this was extremely hard as I'm still in pain but its for the best. I realized I can't love a person's potential and I really tried to give her a chance but eventually we have to do what is best for our own self being, as one can't beat a dead horse. Good Luck Jo and God Bless!

Wow Tom, I am so sorry.But you need to know something, you are doing what is best for both of you and you are doing it before you have given 1/2 your life up to someone that won't make a good marriage partner or parent for your babies. I know how hard it is, loving someone and letting go of them is like having to cut off your arm, and even then you can still feel them with you in almost everything you do. My H is an artistic man and would always write me poems and love letters, it's gut wrenching to read them now. But those words of his didn't match his actions. His actions were very hurtful and destructive. He wronged me and us in many ways and I kept trying and forgiving .. well some of the things I just couldn't forgive no matter how hard I tried. But regardless, he kept the same destructive path.It sounds like what you are doing is right. You will find someone and fall in love again, Tom. Just give yourself all the time you need. Thank you again for this thread, it's posting is timely for me.Love, Jo[ October 16, 2001: Message edited by: Resilient ]

Tom,You hit on an issue that was key in my willingness to stay in my marriage. I found that my H was having an EA with an old girlfriend on the internet. My first reaction was that I did not have any interest in staying with a man of low character who could not [or would not] control himself. I immediately made arrangements to dissolve the marriage, telling him that the marriage was over - period. He begged me let him stay and prove himself so I eventually relented. I have discovered another very important part of character, and that is HOW a person ACTS when faced with their immoral acts. In my situation, my WS was extremely remorseful and ashamed. He had not done anything like this in the past. I am not trying to make excuses for him, but I decided to try and give him a chance. I am glad I did. It has now been a year and he has been an extremely loving, devoted husband and has been scrupulously honest with me. I know that he has not done anything out of line in that year because I have checked up on his computer activity all this time. Now, if my H was not remorseful and committed to change then I would not waste my time. I would know then that he saw nothing wrong with adultery and dishonesty and I would never be safe with such a person. Nor could I LOVE a person with such a low character. I would never be willing to sacrifice my sanity or happiness for such a person. If my H ever did this again, it would be the end of our marriage without question.SO, I do believe that people can change and some people, depending on thier subsequent actions, do deserve a second chance.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by MelodyLane: Tom,You hit on an issue that was key in my willingness to stay in my marriage. I found that my H was having an EA with an old girlfriend on the internet. My first reaction was that I did not have any interest in staying with a man of low character who could not [or would not] control himself. I immediately made arrangements to dissolve the marriage, telling him that the marriage was over - period. He begged me let him stay and prove himself so I eventually relented. I have discovered another very important part of character, and that is HOW a person ACTS when faced with their immoral acts. In my situation, my WS was extremely remorseful and ashamed. He had not done anything like this in the past. I am not trying to make excuses for him, but I decided to try and give him a chance. I am glad I did. It has now been a year and he has been an extremely loving, devoted husband and has been scrupulously honest with me. I know that he has not done anything out of line in that year because I have checked up on his computer activity all this time. Now, if my H was not remorseful and committed to change then I would not waste my time. I would know then that he saw nothing wrong with adultery and dishonesty and I would never be safe with such a person. Nor could I LOVE a person with such a low character. I would never be willing to sacrifice my sanity or happiness for such a person. If my H ever did this again, it would be the end of our marriage without question.SO, I do believe that people can change and some people, depending on thier subsequent actions, do deserve a second chance.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I am glad to hear this. It's great to see a couple work things out. I agree with you that some people can change but I believe a person has to have it in his/her character in order to make a change. The characteristic one needs for change is personal growth and without it I notice change is impossible. One has to want to change in order to change and yet most people are in denial and dont feel a chnge is necessary.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Resilient: Wow Tom, I am so sorry.But you need to know something, you are doing what is best for both of you and you are doing it before you have given 1/2 your life up to someone that won't make a good marriage partner or parent for your babies. I know how hard it is, loving someone and letting go of them is like having to cut off your arm, and even then you can still feel them with you in almost everything you do. My H is an artistic man and would always write me poems and love letters, it's gut wrenching to read them now. But those words of his didn't match his actions. His actions were very hurtful and destructive. He wronged me and us in many ways and I kept trying and forgiving .. well some of the things I just couldn't forgive no matter how hard I tried. But regardless, he kept the same destructive path.It sounds like what you are doing is right. You will find someone and fall in love again, Tom. Just give yourself all the time you need. Thank you again for this thread, it's posting is timely for me.Love, Jo[ October 16, 2001: Message edited by: Resilient ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Tom,Haven't you ever met someone and instantly felt a connection? I hadn't until over a year ago. I hate to think the relationship with the OP is immoral (sp) it could be I guess. Let me explain.....I worked with a man who had everything, he is very tall, nice looking, a professional and had a great sense of humor. The perfect catch. Right? Wrong! He made many passes at me which I ignored.. I ignored him because he was married. I was very flattered about the attention he was giving me, but I never let him know that. And then before long I got a promotion in my job and left that position. Well in my new position another man comes along and I just can't explain what happened. It was like we were meant to be together. He is very UNhappily married. He is staying that way because of reasons that I understand. Anyway, he told me she was depressed and there was just no relationship between them.I do have access to records that prove she is depressed and also because of the way he relates to me I can tell he has feelings for me. What I am trying to say is...I don't think our being together has anything to do with lack of morals.. Sometimes I just think people are meant to be together. Just like in your case with your xgf. If you two were meant to be together then you wouldn't be able to give her up. You would accept her the way she is. You wouldn't be able to live without her. Please try to understand, I am trying to understand myself. I don't mind if you are blunt. I want to know. Maybe I am a selfish cruel person and am just confused that I can't see the forset for the trees. If marriages are mistakes and the right person comes along, then what is wrong with that?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Spiro: Tom,Haven't you ever met someone and instantly felt a connection? I hadn't until over a year ago. I hate to think the relationship with the OP is immoral (sp) it could be I guess. Let me explain.....I worked with a man who had everything, he is very tall, nice looking, a professional and had a great sense of humor. The perfect catch. Right? Wrong! He made many passes at me which I ignored.. I ignored him because he was married. I was very flattered about the attention he was giving me, but I never let him know that. And then before long I got a promotion in my job and left that position. Well in my new position another man comes along and I just can't explain what happened. It was like we were meant to be together. He is very UNhappily married. He is staying that way because of reasons that I understand. Anyway, he told me she was depressed and there was just no relationship between them.I do have access to records that prove she is depressed and also because of the way he relates to me I can tell he has feelings for me. What I am trying to say is...I don't think our being together has anything to do with lack of morals.. Sometimes I just think people are meant to be together. Just like in your case with your xgf. If you two were meant to be together then you wouldn't be able to give her up. You would accept her the way she is. You wouldn't be able to live without her. Please try to understand, I am trying to understand myself. I don't mind if you are blunt. I want to know. Maybe I am a selfish cruel person and am just confused that I can't see the forset for the trees. If marriages are mistakes and the right person comes along, then what is wrong with that?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Spiro, Sorry to say but you're headed for a big hurt. I'm sure this man means the world to you but if this man won't leave an unhappy marriage for you then you ain't worth much to him. JMHO. How long before you want more? That's when the hurt is going to happen. You should of took the first married man, at least he wanted you.who

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by whothehellisshe: Spiro, Sorry to say but you're headed for a big hurt. I'm sure this man means the world to you but if this man won't leave an unhappy marriage for you then you ain't worth much to him. JMHO. How long before you want more? That's when the hurt is going to happen. You should of took the first married man, at least he wanted you.who<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Who Thank you! What you said about him not leaving a unhappy marriage, really made a lot of sense. I never thought of it like that. But he really does have very good reasons for staying there for the time being. And another thing, I'm sure he has feelings for me. It has been over a year that we have been together. A person can tell if someone cares for them. But on the other hand as I mentioned before, maybe I am just too mixed up to see straight. Thank you again for your reply. It gave me something to think about. You probably don't believe me when I say this, but after reading about some of these people here and their pain, it mortifies me to think I could cause someone to hurt so much. That is why I am here asking for advice.

Dear Spiro,Please listen to who. Your relationship may seem like ecstasy now, but your choices are setting you up for more emotional pain than you can imagine.____________________________________________ "What I am trying to say is...I don't think our being together has anything to do with lack of morals.. " ____________________________________________ Spiro, this kind of thinking is what we around here call "THE FOG," thinking that, among other things, ignores reality. The dictionary defines "moral" as "relating to principles of right and wrong in behavior." What is NOT immoral about two married individuals committing adultery.____________________________________________ "If marriages are mistakes and the right person comes along, then what is wrong with that?" ____________________________________________ What is wrong with that is the fact that you have a husband and OM has a wife. All four of you took vows to forsake others. If your marriages are a mistake, end them. Then and only then is a moral person free to develop a new relationship.Adultery always damages everyone involved, the adulterers, the betrayed spouses, the children, the families, and the community.If your marriage is wrong, be honest with your husband. End it. Make choices that show honor and courage.One of my favorite sayings is, "Character is what you are when no one is looking." Who are adulterers when no one is looking? Someone they are proud of or someone who does things they have to hide from everyone? What logic tells WSs that something they have to hide is moral and good?Please read stories here. Sadly, your story has been repeated over and over. It is nothing new or special except to you. Maybe you can gain the wisdom to do the right thing and avoid hurting many people including yourself.Please be careful. Estes

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Estes49: Dear Spiro,Please listen to who. Your relationship may seem like ecstasy now, but your choices are setting you up for more emotional pain than you can imagine.____________________________________________ "What I am trying to say is...I don't think our being together has anything to do with lack of morals.. " ____________________________________________ Spiro, this kind of thinking is what we around here call "THE FOG," thinking that, among other things, ignores reality. The dictionary defines "moral" as "relating to principles of right and wrong in behavior." What is NOT immoral about two married individuals committing adultery.____________________________________________ "If marriages are mistakes and the right person comes along, then what is wrong with that?" ____________________________________________ What is wrong with that is the fact that you have a husband and OM has a wife. All four of you took vows to forsake others. If your marriages are a mistake, end them. Then and only then is a moral person free to develop a new relationship.Adultery always damages everyone involved, the adulterers, the betrayed spouses, the children, the families, and the community.If your marriage is wrong, be honest with your husband. End it. Make choices that show honor and courage.One of my favorite sayings is, "Character is what you are when no one is looking." Who are adulterers when no one is looking? Someone they are proud of or someone who does things they have to hide from everyone? What logic tells WSs that something they have to hide is moral and good?Please read stories here. Sadly, your story has been repeated over and over. It is nothing new or special except to you. Maybe you can gain the wisdom to do the right thing and avoid hurting many people including yourself.Please be careful. Estes<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Dear Estes. I'm afraid you are right. I guess, I am trying to justify my actions. I never ever dreamed I would be in a situation like this. You got my attention when you mentioned hiding. That really sucks! If it were so right, then there wouldn't be any reason to hide. I can honestly say my marriage is completely over. If it wasn't then, I certainly wouldn't have any interest in this OP. I was not looking for anyone what so ever when he came along. As I mentioned before, I had no interest in that first guy. I wouldn't dream of having anything to do with anyone who was married. Yours and whos letters have really helped me to see things more clearly. I especially liked what who wrote about OP not leaving a bad marriage. Thank you for your reply. I guess, I am confused.

Here's a great link on character! Enjoy [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]. <A HREF="http://www.josephsoninstitute.org/MED/MED-intro+toc.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.josephsoninstitute.org/MED/MED-intro+toc.htm</A>

ohmy_marie: This link looks interesting. Thanks. Character and ethics are deep interests of mine. We all want things sometime that are not in our best interests. It takes willpower, commitment, courage, and sacrifice to make the right (ethical, moral) choices and do the right thing. And it's darn hard sometimes!Spiro: I can understand your confusion. I know it's hard. I'm proud of you for thinking your way through this. Continue to try to put reason over emotion. You seem to be wanting to do what is right. Rather than trying to solve your marital problems by having an affair and trying to justify it (and there is no justification), think really hard about what you want with your marriage. Even though MB is about preserving marriages, they can't all be recovered. If that is truly your situation, take care of your current commitment (M) first, then you can move on with a clear conscience. May I also suggest that you treat your H as respectfully as you can as you decide what to do.Take care. EstesBTW, Spiro, my DIL is a WS who found someone with whom she felt a connection. It was so important that she be with him that without even discussing things with my son who was clueless about the A, she filed for divorce, took their 2 year old with her, and moved to another state to be with the OM. She lied, connived, plotted, and deceived everyone (even her priest) to do this. She is now deeply in debt, clinically depressed, unstable enough to be too stressed to care for the baby, afraid that things will not work out with my son, afraid that things will not work out with the OM and generally a basket case. So much for connections. Please don't go there. There are better choices.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Estes49: Dear Spiro,Please listen to who. Your relationship may seem like ecstasy now, but your choices are setting you up for more emotional pain than you can imagine.____________________________________________ "What I am trying to say is...I don't think our being together has anything to do with lack of morals.. " ____________________________________________ Spiro, this kind of thinking is what we around here call "THE FOG," thinking that, among other things, ignores reality. The dictionary defines "moral" as "relating to principles of right and wrong in behavior." What is NOT immoral about two married individuals committing adultery.____________________________________________ "If marriages are mistakes and the right person comes along, then what is wrong with that?" ____________________________________________ What is wrong with that is the fact that you have a husband and OM has a wife. All four of you took vows to forsake others. If your marriages are a mistake, end them. Then and only then is a moral person free to develop a new relationship.Adultery always damages everyone involved, the adulterers, the betrayed spouses, the children, the families, and the community.If your marriage is wrong, be honest with your husband. End it. Make choices that show honor and courage.One of my favorite sayings is, "Character is what you are when no one is looking." Who are adulterers when no one is looking? Someone they are proud of or someone who does things they have to hide from everyone? What logic tells WSs that something they have to hide is moral and good?Please read stories here. Sadly, your story has been repeated over and over. It is nothing new or special except to you. Maybe you can gain the wisdom to do the right thing and avoid hurting many people including yourself.Please be careful. Estes<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Dear Spiro, First I would like to thank Estes for an excellent post and very good advice. Kudos! Spiro it is very important to be honest with yourself first and then and only then you can start to evaluate your situation. If your not honest with yourself you will not face reality. Most people that live their life this way live in denial. God Bless, Tom[ October 17, 2001: Message edited by: Tomstocks ]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by ohmy_marie: Here's a great link on character! Enjoy [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]. <A HREF="http://www.josephsoninstitute.org/MED/MED-intro+toc.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.josephsoninstitute.org/MED/MED-intro+toc.htm</A><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Ohmy marie, Thank you for the link on character, its great!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tomstocks: Ohmy marie, Thank you for the link on character, its great!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Thank you all for your replies. I read a lot before I actually posted. I saw a lot of people in pain and realized that I didn't want to be a part of that. My marriage has been over with for years and we both realize that. We just want to part peacefully. As far as the OP. I am just going to tell him, it is over until we are both out of our marriages and if we are meant to be together, then we will later on. You know what is going to be difficult? He is going to call me tomorrow and his name will be on my phone as it is ringing. It is going to be very hard to not pick up the phone. And Marie that is a very good site you sent. I read a lot of it. I will read more at work tomorrow and make a list. That will help me! This might sound crazy to some of you, but I am looking to going back to church and not feeling so ashamed. That sure was a powerful sentence that Who wrote about me not meaning much.... You have all been a big help. Thank you again.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Spiro: Thank you all for your replies. I read a lot before I actually posted. I saw a lot of people in pain and realized that I didn't want to be a part of that. My marriage has been over with for years and we both realize that. We just want to part peacefully. As far as the OP. I am just going to tell him, it is over until we are both out of our marriages and if we are meant to be together, then we will later on. You know what is going to be difficult? He is going to call me tomorrow and his name will be on my phone as it is ringing. It is going to be very hard to not pick up the phone. And Marie that is a very good site you sent. I read a lot of it. I will read more at work tomorrow and make a list. That will help me! This might sound crazy to some of you, but I am looking to going back to church and not feeling so ashamed. That sure was a powerful sentence that Who wrote about me not meaning much.... You have all been a big help. Thank you again.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Spiro,It seems yours eyes have been opened and you are making a wise choice. We know this might not be easy for you and you might waffle a little. I hope if you waffle or have a setback you don't stop coming here. You are a minority on this board and it could be pretty easy to get scared off. I applaud you for being honest with yourself. If you continue to do that you will end up in the right place. who

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Spiro: Thank you all for your replies. I read a lot before I actually posted. I saw a lot of people in pain and realized that I didn't want to be a part of that. My marriage has been over with for years and we both realize that. We just want to part peacefully. As far as the OP. I am just going to tell him, it is over until we are both out of our marriages and if we are meant to be together, then we will later on. You know what is going to be difficult? He is going to call me tomorrow and his name will be on my phone as it is ringing. It is going to be very hard to not pick up the phone. And Marie that is a very good site you sent. I read a lot of it. I will read more at work tomorrow and make a list. That will help me! This might sound crazy to some of you, but I am looking to going back to church and not feeling so ashamed. That sure was a powerful sentence that Who wrote about me not meaning much.... You have all been a big help. Thank you again.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Dear Spiro, I have to agree with whothehellisshe and would like to let you know that we are here for you whenever you need us even if its just to vent. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Hi Tom,I saw your post to me at D/D and decided to pop in.My ex is a man of very little character. And he doesn't have any morals. This is something that is a learned behavior for him as his father is the same way. Oh yeah, he used to write me long letters and write poetry for me (artistic!) but then he would kick my A$$ for waking him up to go to work. I can't say that he doesn't love his children because he was there when they were all 3 born and I saw the look on his face when he held them for the first time. But they are not a priority for him right now. He's too wrapped up in the woman he left to be with and the lifestyle that they have. (He is an alcoholic and drug addict). I don't feel the intense pain that I used to but I still ask all of the "why?" questions. I know that our marriage could have been good if it hadn't been for his anger and his addictions. But that's not how it turned out. Good topic!Mitzi [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Mitzi: Hi Tom,I saw your post to me at D/D and decided to pop in.My ex is a man of very little character. And he doesn't have any morals. This is something that is a learned behavior for him as his father is the same way. Oh yeah, he used to write me long letters and write poetry for me (artistic!) but then he would kick my A$$ for waking him up to go to work. I can't say that he doesn't love his children because he was there when they were all 3 born and I saw the look on his face when he held them for the first time. But they are not a priority for him right now. He's too wrapped up in the woman he left to be with and the lifestyle that they have. (He is an alcoholic and drug addict). I don't feel the intense pain that I used to but I still ask all of the "why?" questions. I know that our marriage could have been good if it hadn't been for his anger and his addictions. But that's not how it turned out. Good topic!Mitzi [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Dear Mitzi, Thank You, Its a topic that is important to me and I think is the starting point in what to look for in someone when wanting a family/relationship. I too am going through the painful process of having to move on even though in my heart I dont want to. I even have to stop myself from calling her & wanting to give it one more try, but I stop and think and evaluate her actions then I get slapped in the face with reality. I realize that time will heal my broken heart but time alone does not make a PLAYER into a family orientated person. Well anyway welcome to our thread and we will look forward to your insight [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img][ October 19, 2001: Message edited by: Tomstocks ]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Spiro: He is very UNhappily married. He is staying that way because of reasons that I understand. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Forgive me, BUT WHAT A CROCK OF S**T!!!I've often wondered - When he was out wh**ing around, did he say he was soooo unhappy... or didn't the w***e's care?Anyone that messes around with someone who's married is just as wrong as the married one.Quack Quack.[ October 20, 2001: Message edited by: billbailey ]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Estes49: Adultery always damages everyone involved, the adulterers, the betrayed spouses, the children, the families, and the community.If your marriage is wrong, be honest with your husband. End it. Make choices that show honor and courage. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Amen!!!!![/QB][/QUOTE] One of my favorite sayings is, "Character is what you are when no one is looking." [/QB][/QUOTE]I'm going to make that my signature for my email - I love it. Especially since email is the only way I can deal with my H right now. Quack Quack.Bless you for being so kind and gentle. I know I have a caustic tongue and someone should whack my fingers when I really get going, but it's hard to be so controlled when you feel so passionately about something. I admire your gentleness - and wish I had more of it.[ October 20, 2001: Message edited by: billbailey ]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by billbailey: [QB][/QB]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> i totally agree!

Why is it so hard to move on? When you deeply Love someone and you see the person can just move on and be with someonelse or not even care that they hurt you is devastating. If anyone knows of some good sites or areas to look into about dealing with moving on please post.[ October 19, 2001: Message edited by: Tomstocks ]

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Tomstocks,Here are a few sites that you might want to checkout. Maybe you can find something helpful.I am sad that you are hurting so. The reason it is hard to go on is that your entire reality base has shifted. Things you trusted to be true have proven not to be as you believed. You are justifiably frightened of the future, wounded by betrayal, and grieving the loss of your W and your marriage and your family.It may not help much right now, but you will get better with time. You really will! Be patient with yourself as your heal. Are there any divorce recovery groups in your area? What about church support? Are you close to your family?One thing my sister did was to keep a journal. It was helpful to look back at earlier entries in the journal to see that she really was making progress. Another thing she did was to hang a calendar in an obvious place. She put a red star sticker on bad days and a gold star for good days. Sometimes when things were really turbulent, she would put one color star on in the morning and another color in the afternoon. Anyway, she said she could actually look back and see that there were starting to be more gold stars than red ones. It was visual confirmation that things were getting better.Keep posting when you need someone to talk to. Take care. Estes <A HREF="http://pages.prodigy.com/divorceplus/div00.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://pages.prodigy.com/divorceplus/div00.htm</A> <A HREF="http://www.divorcesurvivalguide.com/archive.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.divorcesurvivalguide.com/archive.htm</A> <A HREF="http://www.divorcesource.com/info/recovery/energy.shtml" TARGET=_blank>http://www.divorcesource.com/info/recovery/energy.shtml</A> <A HREF="http://www.12stepdivorce.org/" TARGET=_blank>http://www.12stepdivorce.org/</A> <A HREF="http://www.divorcetransitions.com/books/drj.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.divorcetransitions.com/books/drj.htm</A> <A HREF="http://www.betterdivorce.com/divorce-support/index.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.betterdivorce.com/divorce-support/index.htm</A>

Thank You Estes, I feel you are right and its great to have support from people on this site such as yourself who are so thoughtful and helping. I talk with my mom & sister alot about my situation and they are supportive, last friday I went out with my sister but I didn't really enjoy myself. You are right about the time also. I have to be stronger and think of her actions and how she is handling this. She always goes out and spends the night at times with someonelse, parties and just continues to make the same mistakes, but she feels she isn't doing anything wrong. She feels shes a good person and in the same breath that she says that she will go with different guys and do cocaine and drink all night, but she is a good girl, LOL what a joke! I'm getting stronger and looking more at her actions then her POTENTIAL. It's just terrible when they look you right in the face and tell you one thing while they do another. At least now just recently I noticed myself looking at her differently then before. All my suspicions from the beginning are accurate and its getting easier to let go because I'm starting to realize that she will never change because she doesn't think she needs to. Shes a good girl so she says. Some people just live in denial and instead of identifying it they run from it when everyone finds them out. Did you ever see these type of people that when everyone in a small town labels them as a coke whore or slut (pardon my language) they move somewherelse where they get a fresh start because noone knows them and they do the samething there.I will never in the future get into a relationship with someone with low character and morals! I'm starting to believe people like that don't change. I should know better!Estes thank you for the links to those other sites [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

I just got this in an email from Dr. Harley that was in the recent newsletter and I think it is so true. Also, I love the article with the analogy pertaining to the Renter vs. Buyer agreement on marriage.I use to tell my ex that change is good! She always said that she wanted someone to accept her the way she is, sheesh I wish she would read Dr. Harleys newsletter.Dr Harley states: In this study, newlyweds who divorced within 6 years were compared with those who remained married during those years. It was found that the divorced couples tended not to respond to each other's complaints as quickly as those who remained married. These divorced couples ignored each other's complaints until they became intensely negative. Those who remained married, on the other hand, went to work addressing each other's complaints soon after they were mentioned, not giving the complaint a chance to build up.My experience with couples agrees with the results of this study. In successful marriages, spouses expect to change to accommodate each other's needs, so when a spouse registers a complaint, it's a signal for action. In failed marriages, on the other hand, spouses expect to be accepted as they are, without change. A complaint is interpreted as an unwillingness to love unconditionally, a failure of the complaining spouse. So instead of adjusting to the complaint, the defense is offered, "if you really loved me, you would not try to change me. You would let me continue to do whatever it is I'm doing." This is so true! Tom[ October 20, 2001: Message edited by: Tomstocks ][ October 22, 2001: Message edited by: Tomstocks ]

Spiro,You have been getting some very good input here. I will not repeat the wise things others have said. But there are a few I would like to add.You may want to take a much closer look at your OM. What kind of a man seeks comfort outside his marriage when his wife is having difficulties? She is depressed. Gee I wonder why? I know that when my ex-husband was involved in his affairs I became depressed. I was depressed because I could not understand what was going on in my life and no one would be honest enough to tell me. My H and his OW'en certainly did not care enough about me to spend time with me, to help me support our family, clean house, raise our son, work, etc etc. So does that mean that he was justified in cheating on me? I think not. It also bothers me that you are having an affair with this man and you have access to her medical information. It's almost scary. So she knows nothing of you and you even have access to her most personal medical information. I feel very sorry for her. I do not know what your position and your OM's are but could there be a professional breach going on?I am not trying to be mean to you here. I am trying to be real. Yes, you are hurting his wife in a terrible way. Do you think that your affair is going to do anything other then throw her into an even deeper depression? Your OM should be home taking care of his wife.Is this man really what you want for yourself? A man who would treat his wife this way? He will do the same to you given time. You see, the state of his marriage is 50% his responsibility. He does not have the skills to keep a marriage together. So if the two of you were to ever get married, you can expect the same fate.If your marriage were truely over emotionally, you would have been able to tell your H about your affair. His response would have been something like "Good for you. I want to see you happy." Is that the type of response you expect to get from him when he finds out. (Have no doubt your H and your OM's wife will find out.) A marriage is not over until the divorce papers are signed. I have never seen a marriage contract that says "to forsake all others until I feel like not forsaking all other." None of us are really worth anything more then our word. If a person takes a vow and cannot live up to it, then what is that person worth? Your statement that you will end your affair and your marriage. And then tell your OM that you would be willing to start over with him AFTER he gets a divorce is very healthy and sane. I hope that you will do that. And I hope that you will give yourself about a year after your divorce to find yourself and recover before you get involved with anyone again. If you did this, you could start a new relationship with a healthy foundation.Why do you say that your marriage is over? What are the problems that they cannot be repaired? Have you read the material on this web site and the book Surviving an Affair? If not, please do so before you give up on your marriage. There must have been love in your marriage at one time.. it can be rebuilt if both you and your H will work on it. Why don't you share a little more about your marriage here? What is (or is not) going on there?my 2 centsZ

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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by zorweb: Spiro,You have been getting some very good input here. I will not repeat the wise things others have said. But there are a few I would like to add.You may want to take a much closer look at your OM. What kind of a man seeks comfort outside his marriage when his wife is having difficulties? She is depressed. Gee I wonder why? I know that when my ex-husband was involved in his affairs I became depressed. I was depressed because I could not understand what was going on in my life and no one would be honest enough to tell me. My H and his OW'en certainly did not care enough about me to spend time with me, to help me support our family, clean house, raise our son, work, etc etc. So does that mean that he was justified in cheating on me? I think not. It also bothers me that you are having an affair with this man and you have access to her medical information. It's almost scary. So she knows nothing of you and you even have access to her most personal medical information. I feel very sorry for her. I do not know what your position and your OM's are but could there be a professional breach going on?I am not trying to be mean to you here. I am trying to be real. Yes, you are hurting his wife in a terrible way. Do you think that your affair is going to do anything other then throw her into an even deeper depression? Your OM should be home taking care of his wife.Is this man really what you want for yourself? A man who would treat his wife this way? He will do the same to you given time. You see, the state of his marriage is 50% his responsibility. He does not have the skills to keep a marriage together. So if the two of you were to ever get married, you can expect the same fate.If your marriage were truely over emotionally, you would have been able to tell your H about your affair. His response would have been something like "Good for you. I want to see you happy." Is that the type of response you expect to get from him when he finds out. (Have no doubt your H and your OM's wife will find out.) A marriage is not over until the divorce papers are signed. I have never seen a marriage contract that says "to forsake all others until I feel like not forsaking all other." None of us are really worth anything more then our word. If a person takes a vow and cannot live up to it, then what is that person worth? Your statement that you will end your affair and your marriage. And then tell your OM that you would be willing to start over with him AFTER he gets a divorce is very healthy and sane. I hope that you will do that. And I hope that you will give yourself about a year after your divorce to find yourself and recover before you get involved with anyone again. If you did this, you could start a new relationship with a healthy foundation.Why do you say that your marriage is over? What are the problems that they cannot be repaired? Have you read the material on this web site and the book Surviving an Affair? If not, please do so before you give up on your marriage. There must have been love in your marriage at one time.. it can be rebuilt if both you and your H will work on it. Why don't you share a little more about your marriage here? What is (or is not) going on there?my 2 centsZ<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Dear Z, Thank you so much for the advice and for not being "mean". My marriage?? It has been over for years, I tried staying in it, because I thought it was the right thing. I was going to church on a regular basis and I thought God wanted people to stay married no matter what. I really wouldn't call it a marriage for the last five years. He travels a lot and we just drifted apart. I still stayed in the marriage because I thought that was the normal thing to do. I was working a lot of hours when he was home on the weekends. I decided to move to another state with him and give up my job in hopes we could at least try to build some kind of relationship. So I stayed home cooked and cleaned and cleaned and cleaned until I thought I would go nuts. So then I decided to volunteer in a nursing home. That was great it gave me something to look forward to. That worked until one of the employees just got to be too much (another story). I then thought I would just work part time. Well part time went to full time and then over time. I swear, I am not at all bragging, but I have had many oppurtunities to have an affair, but wouldn't dream of it. I honestly never thought I could such a thing. I really did have a close relationship with God, until I started working so much and back sliding. Any this guy kept coming to see me at work. I just figured his marriage was as dead as mine or why else would he be interested in me? I honestly, thought it was meant to be. I know now that is stupid and naive. My H knows I am interested in someone else. I sure don't give him the details. I don't want to hurt anybody EVER! And as far as his W, she doesn't know anything at all about me. She is very well known in this community through her profession. She is highly professional and that seems to be her life. I only mentioned her records, because if I mentioned that she was depressed, people on here would say "sure that is what he is telling you". I plan to separate from H. We both agree that it is over and we will separate peacefully. Neither one of us are greedy or out to get the other. You know it isn't easy being in this position and yes I do agree it is best to stay away from the OM. I am trying really hard to do that. Thank you for asking. It has helped a lot just typing this.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Spiro: Dear Z, Thank you so much for the advice and for not being "mean". My marriage?? It has been over for years, I tried staying in it, because I thought it was the right thing. I was going to church on a regular basis and I thought God wanted people to stay married no matter what. I really wouldn't call it a marriage for the last five years. He travels a lot and we just drifted apart. I still stayed in the marriage because I thought that was the normal thing to do. I was working a lot of hours when he was home on the weekends. I decided to move to another state with him and give up my job in hopes we could at least try to build some kind of relationship. So I stayed home cooked and cleaned and cleaned and cleaned until I thought I would go nuts. So then I decided to volunteer in a nursing home. That was great it gave me something to look forward to. That worked until one of the employees just got to be too much (another story). I then thought I would just work part time. Well part time went to full time and then over time. I swear, I am not at all bragging, but I have had many oppurtunities to have an affair, but wouldn't dream of it. I honestly never thought I could such a thing. I really did have a close relationship with God, until I started working so much and back sliding. Any this guy kept coming to see me at work. I just figured his marriage was as dead as mine or why else would he be interested in me? I honestly, thought it was meant to be. I know now that is stupid and naive. My H knows I am interested in someone else. I sure don't give him the details. I don't want to hurt anybody EVER! And as far as his W, she doesn't know anything at all about me. She is very well known in this community through her profession. She is highly professional and that seems to be her life. I only mentioned her records, because if I mentioned that she was depressed, people on here would say "sure that is what he is telling you". I plan to separate from H. We both agree that it is over and we will separate peacefully. Neither one of us are greedy or out to get the other. You know it isn't easy being in this position and yes I do agree it is best to stay away from the OM. I am trying really hard to do that. Thank you for asking. It has helped a lot just typing this.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Oh Yeah, I also wanted to mention that I did read a lot of the marriage builders information. That is one reason I decided to stop this relationship. I saw too many people in so much pain and I didn't want to be the cause of anyones pain ever... I am thinking, that if we end this now, she will never know about me. This is very difficult and I deserve everything I get. You seem very wise and I appreciate your input.

Spiro,Perhaps it will help to look at your current discomfort as a valuable learning experience rather than a punishment (i.e., getting what you deserve). Everyone makes mistakes. A wise person learns from her mistakes and vows to make better choices. Best wishes to you in your future decisions. Estes

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Estes49: Spiro,Perhaps it will help to look at your current discomfort as a valuable learning experience rather than a punishment (i.e., getting what you deserve). Everyone makes mistakes. A wise person learns from her mistakes and vows to make better choices. Best wishes to you in your future decisions. Estes<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Dear Estes, You are right, I never thought of it like that. By the way, how is your daughter in law?

Thanks for asking about our situation, Spiro,Nothing decisive yet. DIL wants my S to move to her state/town, but continues to email and receive phone calls from OM. My S says he won't give up his job and move until she cuts off all contact with OM. She is at S's house right now for their son's adnoid surgery on Monday (Son took care of all that planning.) She will take GS back to her town after his recouperation. Poor little kid. He's been back and forth so often that he refers to Mommy's house and Daddy's house but doesn't ever speak of "my house." A lot depends on DIL's willingness to give up contact with OM. If she can't do that, I'm sure D is just a matter of time and my S will file for custody. This is all so sad.

Dear Estes, Your son seems to be a very smart person. I hope it works out for both of them. I think its neat that all three of them are together right now, before the surgery. That could bring them all back together. You never know.. I believe everything happens for a reason. I'm just curios, do you have deep resentment for your DIL?? If I had a son in law or a daughter in law who did that to my child, I would be furious. Isn't that funny coming from me? I mean the situation I'm in? Just goes to show how we can make up so many excuses for ourselves and convince ourselves that what we are doing is right.

Spiro,It might surprise you to know that I love my DIL. We have been very close for a long time. She and her sister have been like daughters to us. That's part of what makes this all very sad. We do not speak of their problems the rare times we see each other or email. I have to walk a fine line between support and mettling. I helped S investigate the discoveries of d-day. DIL had left with no hint of an A, just, "I need to find myself." S accidentally discovered it a month later and was crushed. It was very traumatic to say the least, especially as I saw my "child" suffering so. People would ask if there was an OM, and we said, "Of course not. She would never do that!" - naive us. I have felt disgust, anger, resentment - the whole bag of emotions. I hate what she has done. But I do not hate her. It's like what others say here, she has become another person. I think that what I hate the most is that she has hurt my grandson terribly. My S, too, but he's an adult. He will cope.It is a strange feeling to have these emotions toward someone you love.I am sorry to see the pain she is in now. I will always remember the relationship we had. DIL is a child of a disfunctional family and a victim for sexual abuse. Her history has stacked the cards against her. In a way, I feel sorry for her. At the same time, I am 100% sure that the A is a result of her deliberate choices. She was so deceitful and dishonest. I forgive her. I wish her a recovery from her emotional illness. I honestly do not know if their marriage can recover. If it does, it will be a new relationship as will my relationship with her.This is where I see this thread and your situation as being so important. Character does count. Character is the choices one makes when the situation gets tough. It's not hard to make an easy decision. But it takes courage and character to make the right choices in difficult circumstances. Because of coming to MB, you have the change now to make the right choices. You seem to be making the choices that will keep you from feeling the self-recrimination that DIL is feeling now. As I posted to you earlier, everyone makes mistakes, even people of good character. What one does to address those mistakes is the proof of that character. Keeping you in my thoughts, EstesSorry for the long post. I guess I am venting. I just believe so strongly in making the right choices as hard as that can be. Estes

Estes, I'm glad you forgive your daughter in law. She needs all the love and support she can get. Doing the right thing on my part is so very difficult. I hate myself for getting into this mess. I tried to stay away from him. You know I can turn my phone off at home, I can turn my cell phone off, I can trash the e-mail, but when he calls my office and I see his name on the phone, it is very difficult. It doesn't help when he tells me he has been up all night either. I appreciate your advice and you being so kind.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Estes49: Spiro, This is where I see this thread and your situation as being so important. Character does count. Character is the choices one makes when the situation gets tough. It's not hard to make an easy decision. But it takes courage and character to make the right choices in difficult circumstances. Because of coming to MB, you have the change now to make the right choices. You seem to be making the choices that will keep you from feeling the self-recrimination that DIL is feeling now. As I posted to you earlier, everyone makes mistakes, even people of good character. What one does to address those mistakes is the proof of that character. Keeping you in my thoughts, EstesSorry for the long post. I guess I am venting. I just believe so strongly in making the right choices as hard as that can be. Estes<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Dear ESTES, You are soooooooo right about character and how everyone makes mistakes because we all do. You hit the nail on the head in stating that "It's what one does to address those mistakes that is the proof of that character". I believe the characteristic one needs in order to learn from a mistake is Personal Growth, when you have this in your character you will be the type of person that wants to better themselve and in fact are open to change.Some important characteristics I look for in a person I would marry is Honesty, Personal Growth, Good Morals & Ethics. Alot of people confuse Personality Traits with characteristic traits as they (PT)include funny, outgoing, cheerful, sexy & alluring just to name a few.Estes please don't ever feel your posts are too long as I enjoy reading them and gain such helpful insight. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Even when we are aware and knowledgable in certain areas it helps very much to hear it from others. I often wonder how people that are cheats & liars (I call them Players) react when they stumble across Marriage Builders and read the posts. You would hope that they would reconsider their actions.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Spiro: Estes, I'm glad you forgive your daughter in law. She needs all the love and support she can get. Doing the right thing on my part is so very difficult. I hate myself for getting into this mess. I tried to stay away from him. You know I can turn my phone off at home, I can turn my cell phone off, I can trash the e-mail, but when he calls my office and I see his name on the phone, it is very difficult. It doesn't help when he tells me he has been up all night either. I appreciate your advice and you being so kind.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> bump

Spiro, Hang in there and just do the right thing, be honest with yourself and the people your involved with then everything will fall into place. Take shortcuts and then your on your own. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]

Spiro,I've been thinking about what I could say to be helpful to you. I feel inadequate because I don't have direct experience with what you are going through. I do know what I have read about withdrawal, though.No one will tell you that it is not really hard. You will feel a great loss and go through a grief cycle similar to what people go through with any major loss. The hopeful news it that there is an end to the pain if you can outlast the discomfort. One thing I read is that any contact with the OM - any contact - will set you back to square one and you will have to start all over again with the grief cycle and the healing.Have you made a plan? Are you ready to discuss divorce with your H? Where will you live if you separate? Are you going to tell him about OM? What will you do to distract yourself when the urge to contact OM is strong? Who do you have to share your feelings with and help you through? You need a person you trust to help you.If you haven't done so, read Surviving an Affair. It will tell you what to expect in the way of withdrawal feelings. It may be helpful to know that others have felt what you do and have been successful. It will explain the No Contact letter in which you tell OM that you do not want him to attempt to contact you in any way and that you will not contact him or respond to any of his calls.Knowing that the OM is not an honorable, trustworthy man of character will not make your sense of loss any less. But, Spiro, you deserve more in life than what a man like this one has to offer. Working with the MB concepts will help your next relationship be the right one.May God give you the strength to be strong. You can do this. (((Spiro)))Estes

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Spiro, I think Estes who is a great poster with excellent advice is just being nice and conciderant. Really you need to just be honest and do the right thing already, come on you talk about church & faith, "Well Do It". Believe me it works as it does for me.

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Another thing I have seen in a PLAYER is that they don't even realize the pain they put us through. I can understand how they look at this as their belief system is different from ours.[ October 22, 2001: Message edited by: Tomstocks ][ October 22, 2001: Message edited by: Tomstocks ][ October 22, 2001: Message edited by: Tomstocks ]

Estes, I agree with you that by applying the MB concepts to a relationship one can definetly buiild a longlasting, loving one.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tomstocks: bump<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Tom. Estes is not only considerate and nice, but also WISE and caring.. I am working on doing the right thing. I knew he was going to call last night when he got back in town and I had my phone turned off. He left a message saying he would call me today, but guess what??? My phone will be turned off again.. You know how hard this is, if in fact you did break up with your girl friend. I think it will be awhile before I have enough nerve to walk back into a church. What I did was wrong, but I am certainly not cruel.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Estes49: Spiro,I've been thinking about what I could say to be helpful to you. I feel inadequate because I don't have direct experience with what you are going through. I do know what I have read about withdrawal, though.No one will tell you that it is not really hard. You will feel a great loss and go through a grief cycle similar to what people go through with any major loss. The hopeful news it that there is an end to the pain if you can outlast the discomfort. One thing I read is that any contact with the OM - any contact - will set you back to square one and you will have to start all over again with the grief cycle and the healing.Have you made a plan? Are you ready to discuss divorce with your H? Where will you live if you separate? Are you going to tell him about OM? What will you do to distract yourself when the urge to contact OM is strong? Who do you have to share your feelings with and help you through? You need a person you trust to help you.If you haven't done so, read Surviving an Affair. It will tell you what to expect in the way of withdrawal feelings. It may be helpful to know that others have felt what you do and have been successful. It will explain the No Contact letter in which you tell OM that you do not want him to attempt to contact you in any way and that you will not contact him or respond to any of his calls.Knowing that the OM is not an honorable, trustworthy man of character will not make your sense of loss any less. But, Spiro, you deserve more in life than what a man like this one has to offer. Working with the MB concepts will help your next relationship be the right one.May God give you the strength to be strong. You can do this. (((Spiro)))Estes<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Estes, You have helped more than I can say. Thank you very much! You are a very kind and understanding person. Have you ever considered taking up counceling? Or do you do that already? H and I decided to separate in Janurary. We don't have all the details worked out yet. We are both able to take care of ourselved financially. He knows I am seeing someone, but doesn't know the details. I hope your family is doing well. Thank you for all your kindness....By the way, I don't ever ever ever want another relationship. I am content being on my own.

[img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] I've taught 12 to 15 year-olds for 20 years. I can handle ANYTHING!!!!! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] Seriously, my son's experience with DIL's infidelity has been a tremendous eye opener. I have learned so much through this gut-wrenching ordeal. I feel a bit like a MB evangelist. If I can help anyone, it's my privilege. I also have a special interest (due to my profession)in reducing the divorce rate because of the awful effects on children.I have such respect for everyone here. It's a blessing for me to have found this site. Estes

Coping with Infidelity, Part 3: Restoring the Marital Relationship. Since an affair does not usually end the way it should, with complete separation from the lover, you may not find this column entirely relevant to you. In your case, your spouse's lover may still be a factor, and you will want to know how to restore your marital relationship with your spouse's lover standing in the wings. If you are in that position, I have addressed that topic in two other columns that I review below: "What to Do with an Unfaithful Husband" and "What to Do with an Unfaithful Wife." In short, it's hard enough to restore a martial relationship when a lover is finally out of the picture. BUT IT'S IMPOSSIBLE WHEN THE LOVER IS STILL HANGING AROUND!This is under the infidelity section of Dr. Harleys and I find it very helpful. Also, his section under Preparing for Marriage called Choosing is very helpful.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tomstocks: Coping with Infidelity, Part 3: Restoring the Marital Relationship. Since an affair does not usually end the way it should, with complete separation from the lover, you may not find this column entirely relevant to you. In your case, your spouse's lover may still be a factor, and you will want to know how to restore your marital relationship with your spouse's lover standing in the wings. If you are in that position, I have addressed that topic in two other columns that I review below: "What to Do with an Unfaithful Husband" and "What to Do with an Unfaithful Wife." In short, it's hard enough to restore a martial relationship when a lover is finally out of the picture. BUT IT'S IMPOSSIBLE WHEN THE LOVER IS STILL HANGING AROUND!This is under the infidelity section of Dr. Harleys and I find it very helpful. Also, his section under Preparing for Marriage called Choosing is very helpful.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Tom! Tom! Tom! Who wants to restore their marriage? Certainly not me. All I want to do is get over this relationship with this other person. And if he is unhappy in his marriage like he says he is, then we will have a chance, but I want no part in his decision making... And if he is happy, then he is where he should be. Although, I can't understand how he or anyone else can have a close relationship with someone else and still profess to be in love with their spouse. I know, I couldn't. My marriage was LONG over before I got involved with anyone else. I thought everyone was like that. I don't believe you can love someone and then be involved with another person. I had plenty of offers from other men when this one came along. Stupid me! I thought, it was meant to be. I really did.. I thought, why else would all these feelings be involved. Live and learn I guess.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Estes49: [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] I've taught 12 to 15 year-olds for 20 years. I can handle ANYTHING!!!!! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] Seriously, my son's experience with DIL's infidelity has been a tremendous eye opener. I have learned so much through this gut-wrenching ordeal. I feel a bit like a MB evangelist. If I can help anyone, it's my privilege. I also have a special interest (due to my profession)in reducing the divorce rate because of the awful effects on children.I have such respect for everyone here. It's a blessing for me to have found this site. Estes<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You're a blessing to us. You know God uses people to help each other and I'm sure you being here is no accident...My phone was just ringing. I thought, I had it turned off, but I DIDN"T ANSWER IT!!!!! See I'm getting there.As Tom said, I have to be honest with myself and everyone else. But when I talk to him he makes me feel like this is all normal for us to be like this. Oh well, thank you for putting up with me.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Spiro: You're a blessing to us. You know God uses people to help each other and I'm sure you being here is no accident...My phone was just ringing. I thought, I had it turned off, but I DIDN"T ANSWER IT!!!!! See I'm getting there.As Tom said, I have to be honest with myself and everyone else. But when I talk to him he makes me feel like this is all normal for us to be like this. Oh well, thank you for putting up with me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Dear Spiro, Come to think of it if he insists on calling you, you can always give him some Love Busters [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] (just kidding). Beleieve me they do work and can put an end to things but there are better ways. Time is the best medicine and every healing process requires time, for me every passing day of just watching her actions is helping me and now it's to the point of No Return. I made an inventory list (good/bad) of her actions and now its clear to me (the fog has lifted). Did you ever hear the saying "Follow Your Heart" well that only works when the other person is of high quality and character/morals as if its a player you will just get hurt. We get into situations (myself) were our heart tells us to do one thing and our mind (reality) tells us to do the opposite. Well with time if you analyze and watch the situation it becomes clear and you do the right thing and thats when its finally over. Healing starts to happen more quickly and it becomes apparent that moving on is for the best! It feels great & when one starts to feel good thats another good sign. The destructive behavior stops and good things follow. Believe me because this is where I am right now! I notice you mentioned church & I think that is great as it helps me alot. I've been going in the morning then I goto a new athletic club that I just joined. It's good to replace bad habits with good ones. Like in sports or business when the chips are down, you must step it up a notch and focus. Another saying: "Don't Throw Good Money After Bad". God Bless, Tom

I just wanted to jump in here and say what a wonderful post this is. It has given me a lot of things to think about. Thank you so much.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by dumplin: I just wanted to jump in here and say what a wonderful post this is. It has given me a lot of things to think about. Thank you so much.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Hi Dumplin & thank you, I noticed some of your other posts and I see your H is musician, I can understand were that can be hard for you at times. It's something like a bartender or club owner were they are in a position to get hit on (ALOT) by other people. It goes with that lifestyle. Like with infidelity (when affairs happen) Dr. Harley always states that one must end ALL contact with the other person or it usually doesn't work, he even goes as far as to suggest relocating or change jobs.Well welcome to our thread and we are here whenever you need to vent or just say hello [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] We have some good people here!Tom[ October 22, 2001: Message edited by: Tomstocks ]

Good night everyone [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

bump

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tomstocks: bump<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tomstocks: bump<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img]does everyone think u are married? i know that does not matter, but the way u make things sound that u are an angel! why don't u explain your other side?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by tmsgirl: [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> going for a mountain bike ride, bbl...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tomstocks: going for a mountain bike ride, bbl...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Hey Tom,Are you pretending to be an angel??? Or maybe it's me she's referring to...

Hey Dumplin, You come on in here, we are very glad to have you... Tom and Estes have both been a lot of help to me. Tom with his blunt and straight forward approach and Estes with his/her kind and wise approach. Both of them helped me a lot. Gosh, it just occured to me that I don't know if Estes is a him or a her, but you know what? It doesn't matter! Tom do you think you will be able to give up that person without regretting it the rest of your life???? I think, my problem is, I have always followed my heart and not used my head. YOU know better than I do that there are a lot of people like that. I excercise every morning and it does wonders for me... I really do think it helps to keep the ugly depressed fellings away. I do it more for the mental benefits more so than the physical benefits. I was just getting ready to stop posting before Dumplin came along. I thought a person with my recent back ground only added pain and HATE to a lot of hurting people here and I didn't want that.

I'm here Spiro. I thought this thread was very interesting. I guess since I'm married to a musician and wondering if it was our marriage or the livestyle of a musician that did more harm to our marriage. If that makes any sense. It just gave me alot to think about.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Spiro: Hey Tom,Are you pretending to be an angel??? Or maybe it's me she's referring to...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>hi spiro, can we talk? [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] i don't bite!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by tmsgirl: hi spiro, can we talk? [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] i don't bite!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Sure we can talk... I don't bite either..

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by dumplin: I'm here Spiro. I thought this thread was very interesting. I guess since I'm married to a musician and wondering if it was our marriage or the livestyle of a musician that did more harm to our marriage. If that makes any sense. It just gave me alot to think about.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Dear Dummplin, I don't think your problems has anything at all to do with his being a musician. I think it has a lot to do with his maturity.... Is he mature enough to handle a wife and family. I convinced myself that what I was doing was right. It made it easier to live with myself. Now I am not only hurting from turning away from someone who has been a big part of my life for the last year, but I also have to face the shame of what I had done.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Spiro: Sure we can talk... I don't bite either..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Hi, I was tom's other half, and i am just a little upset of the things that he said! There are 2 sides to every story! We just met in febuary but it feels i known him forever! I fell in love with him, but he is so deep, i try to understand him but to him i am always wrong! Everything is based on my past,it dosen't matter if it's not true, he believes what he want's to! There is no one i would rather be with then him, i wish he could believe that! I was happy with him! I gave up a child with him because he said he wouldn't be there, and i still love him, why? i just need everyone to know that i do want a familly, we were apart for over a month, and yes i told him i was with someone, but he told me he wanted nothing to do with me, i do not consider that cheating, his words were so hurtful, no one would put up with that! Would you consider that cheating? I believed it was over, even though i still loved him, his words killed me, drinking of course! i'm sorry, thank u for listening! bye cm! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Hi Spiro,See how the cycle goes? Isn't it neat? Now you have to opportunity to help others.BTW, I'm a school teacher grandmom from West Texas. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] Let me know whenever you want to talk. Estes

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Spiro: Hey Dumplin, You come on in here, we are very glad to have you... Tom and Estes have both been a lot of help to me. Tom with his blunt and straight forward approach and Estes with his/her kind and wise approach. Both of them helped me a lot. Gosh, it just occured to me that I don't know if Estes is a him or a her, but you know what? It doesn't matter! Tom do you think you will be able to give up that person without regretting it the rest of your life???? I think, my problem is, I have always followed my heart and not used my head. YOU know better than I do that there are a lot of people like that. I excercise every morning and it does wonders for me... I really do think it helps to keep the ugly depressed fellings away. I do it more for the mental benefits more so than the physical benefits. I was just getting ready to stop posting before Dumplin came along. I thought a person with my recent back ground only added pain and HATE to a lot of hurting people here and I didn't want that.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Thank you Spiro, I really care and wish the best for your situation and believe that as we all help each other we all will feel better in the long run. Please don't ever leave us as I feel we are friends and can help each other. I admire the progress you've made and your going to come out on top. I really appreciate your compliments as it makes me feel great to know that I meant someting or helped someone, besides that I did include you in my prayers yesterday morning in church. You also have helped me whether you realized it or not, very much in many ways!One thing to everyone in OUR thread is I want to apologize for my ex GF coming here and acting childish, I have no control of it but I did report it to the moderator and hope it will be taken care of. I tried to tell her this is not the place to discuss this, we are here to help each other but she insists I'm only telling my side of the story, BS , professionally speaking I tried to end it with her nicely and I understand she is mad and hurt but that is no reason to act this way. It will do no good to talk in front of the world about this so I asked her to be an adult about this and I hope she will.I did mention in my previous posts about my problem that Dr. Harley talks about of speaking disrespectfully to your spouse, but I'm sorry I have character and when you screw someonelse then come home to me and make Love I get offended. On top of that she had the nerve to be with me knowing she had HERPES and never told me until we were together in which is wrong too. We can go on here all night about this but I will not allow myself to fall for her games because she feels guilty or looks bad, sheeeeeeeesh noone even knows her here and look at my past posts as I never even gave a clue to her identity. That would be devistating and wrong which is not me. I will not lower myself to her level. So i will again apologize for her actions.I plan on attending Dr. Harleys seminar. I love helping people along with coming here to get support also, but if this continues with my ex I must leave and I'm sorry for those of you who like the Topic I started. God Bless Tom,[ October 24, 2001: Message edited by: Tomstocks ] [img]images/icons/blush.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/blush.gif" border="0[/img][ October 24, 2001: Message edited by: Tomstocks ][ October 24, 2001: Message edited by: Tomstocks ][ October 24, 2001: Message edited by: Tomstocks ][ October 24, 2001: Message edited by: Tomstocks ][ October 24, 2001: Message edited by: Tomstocks ]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by tmsgirl: Hi, I was tom's other half, and i am just a little upset of the things that he said! There are 2 sides to every story! We just met in febuary but it feels i known him forever! I fell in love with him, but he is so deep, i try to understand him but to him i am always wrong! Everything is based on my past,it dosen't matter if it's not true, he believes what he want's to! There is no one i would rather be with then him, i wish he could believe that! I was happy with him! I gave up a child with him because he said he wouldn't be there, and i still love him, why? i just need everyone to know that i do want a familly, we were apart for over a month, and yes i told him i was with someone, but he told me he wanted nothing to do with me, i do not consider that cheating, his words were so hurtful, no one would put up with that! Would you consider that cheating? I believed it was over, even though i still loved him, his words killed me, drinking of course! i'm sorry, thank u for listening! bye cm! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Hi Tomsgrl, I can tell Tom has been hurt deeply. You have to see his side also. You mentioned you were apart for just over a month and you were already with someone else??? That tells me a lot. If you truly love someone can you really be with someone else, especially in that short of time? Please try to understand I am not judging. I am in no position to do that. I mean look at what I've done. Tom seems like a really neat person, he had to love you to be hurt like that. I hope you two can work things out. And like Tom said, you have to be honest with every one including YOURSELF. Please both of you keep in touch. And Tom, you can't leave now!!!!!! It is good to see you back Estes!

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Spiro:
Hi Tomsgrl, I can tell Tom has been hurt deeply. You have to see his side also. You mentioned you were apart for just over a month and you were already with someone else??? That tells me a lot. If you truly love someone can you really be with someone else, especially in that short of time? Please try to understand I am not judging. I am in no position to do that. I mean look at what I've done. Tom seems like a really neat person, he had to love you to be hurt like that.
I hope you two can work things out. And like Tom said, you have to be honest with every one including YOURSELF. Please both of you keep in touch. And Tom, you can't leave now!!!!!! It is good to see you back Estes!<hr></blockquote>
Dear Spiro,
wow thank you so much! Your are 100% right, when you love someone it should be hard to go with someonelse. I feel the same and know I couldn't. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] I just can't understand & don't know how to deal with it because Honesty and Loyalty is so important to me. I see that the more character someone has & the more you Love someone the more you get hurt when your betrayed. This is when I make the mistake of making direspectful judgement & statements in which I know is wrong because 2 wrongs don't make a right. I am now learning how to deal with this and will work very hard in the future to do the right thing.Spiro I would like to be more sympathetic in my posts but you are right I'm the type of person that is right to the point because when you look at the facts and be honest with yourself and others its easier to see through the fog (clear). Have you noticed how counselors sometimes seem non-sympathetic, thats because they sometimes have to tell a person something they don't want to hear and when we don't like what we hear sometimes we have a tendancy to think this.Spiro thank you for being so careing and honest as sometimes the truth hurts but in the long run the truth pays off. I would rather hear the truth and take the pain, then to avoid the truth just to feel good about myself. I always value your advice and you being here on our thread. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Tom[ October 24, 2001: Message edited by: Tomstocks ][ October 24, 2001: Message edited by: Tomstocks ]

[img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Hi Spiro,
I just wanted to add something to the paragraph that I posted previously about counseling methods and approach.Spiro I would like to be more sympathetic in my posts but you are right I'm the type of person that is right to the point because when you look at the facts and be honest with yourself and others its easier to see through the fog (clear). Have you noticed how counselors sometimes seem non-sympathetic, thats because they sometimes have to tell a person something they don't want to hear and when we don't like what we hear sometimes we have a tendancy to think this.This is why I like Dr. Harley's approach to Marriage/Relationship counseling bettter then the traditional type because he works on building Love in the M/R were the traditional is to address the problem area and mediate a method towards problem solving. He talks about thiis throughout his basics and the differences in his methods. This is one reason why he is more personable (nice) instead of direct and to the point. I feel his methods are much better and teach people to build Longlasting & Loving marriages. People learn methods and the right way to care for each others feelings more then the traditional approach, in which I'm accustom to.
Dr. Harleys statement:The difference between my approach to saving marriages, and the
approach of most other therapists, is that I focus on building
romantic love (being "in love") between spouses, rather than
simply focusing on conflict resolution. As it turns out, I also
address conflict resolution, but I do it in a way that builds
love between spouses.Since most marital therapists fail to address the romantic love
issue when they try to help couples, their approach to conflict
resolution usually fails to build love, and as a result, the
couples divorce, even after "resolving" some of their conflicts.I posted this earlier but thought it was appropiate for this subject & about change:Dr Harley states:
In this study, newlyweds who divorced within 6 years were
compared with those who remained married during those years.
It was found that the divorced couples tended not to respond
to each other's complaints as quickly as those who remained
married. These divorced couples ignored each other's complaints
until they became intensely negative. Those who remained married,
on the other hand, went to work addressing each other's
complaints soon after they were mentioned, not giving the
complaint a chance to build up.My experience with couples agrees with the results of this study.
In successful marriages, spouses expect to change to accommodate
each other's needs, so when a spouse registers a complaint, it's
a signal for action. In failed marriages, on the other hand,
spouses expect to be accepted as they are, without change. A
complaint is interpreted as an unwillingness to love
unconditionally, a failure of the complaining spouse. So instead
of adjusting to the complaint, the defense is offered, "if you
really loved me, you would not try to change me. You would let
me continue to do whatever it is I'm doing."
In successful marriages, spouses expect to change to accommodate each other's needs, so when a spouse registers a complaint, it's a signal for action. In failed marriages, on the other hand, spouses expect to be accepted as they are, without change.So instead of adjusting to the complaint, the defense is offered, "IF YOU REALLY LOVED ME, YOU WOULD NOT TRY TO CHANGE ME. YOU WOULD LET ME CONTINUE TO DO WHATEVER IT IS I'M DOING." WOW, Can I relate to this!Guess What? I Got an Email from my exGF the other day (which I knew was just out of anger) in which stated she will never change! I guess she knows more then Dr. Harley now too. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] Tom

TOM, Thank you for your prayers and your kind words. I need all the help I can get... You are so right about what you wrote in your last post... I try not to bring out the negative things in other people, but I just gotta tell about my H... I have come to the point of resenting him so much that I even hate to write the letter "H", which stands for husband. He always acted like no one had feelings except him. He always had to make all the decisions including the coat I would wear. He always said, he should make all the decisions, because he made the bigger pay check. YUK!! I can't believe I put up with it all these years. I didn't agree with him wanting to buy a new boat. Instead I wanted to fix up the unfinished basement in our new home. WELL, because I didn't want to go with him to look at it he picks me up off the couch by the back of my dress a pushes me out to his new truck and asks me why I hate him... This was long before the affair. You are so right. He didn't care about complaints or things that bothered other people. My family saw all of that in him, but I didn't. I couldn't understand why they didnt like him, but I see it now. I just lost respect and then started resenting him. And now I hope he leaves peacefully like we both agreed. A person can only take so much.. I could go on and on. I am so sorry for going on like this, I usually keep these kind of things to myself. I can certainly say that I am not in any kind of fog I want no part of him. All of what I have just written proves that you are right . It takes two to make a marriage. Mine is beyond repair. Don't get me wrong he is not all bad, he just has this need to be in control of everything. I think my time of "obeying" him is over. Sorry again, you really hit a sore spot. I don't even discuss things with family or friend

I accidentally hit the wrong key, but as I said, I usually keep things to myself. Tom I hope if you have feelings for your x girl friend you two can work things out. As you always post "Life is too short". Hopefully the break up between you two will make you both want to work on the relationship and when you do get back together it will be better than ever. I hope Estes is ok. I haven't heard from her in awhile. I miss her input. I hope her family is doing alright. And Tom I appreciate you being honest and forward in your post. I believe that approach helps people a lot. Who (whothehellisshe) made a statement that really opened my eyes. It went something like "if he is unwilling to give up a unhappy marriage for you then he must not think a whole lot of you" It made a difference in how I felt. I wish you and your girlfriend the best.

Hi Spiro,I'm really sorry about your experiences. May I ask you a question? Why is it that you never discussed your situation with anyone? It sounds very close to abuse to me.It must have been awful to live with this all those years all by yourself! I couldn't get by without having confidants, my sister, a few close friends. Just wondered what kept you from sharing your burden. Forgive me if this is prying.Concerned for you, Estes

Just wanted to add to this discussion a link to a book that I've recently read and is about this very topic....Moral Earthquakes & Secret FaultsI believe 100% in my heart that my H's addition to internet porn and his "secret faults" are what set of the "earthquake" of his affair, and ultimately the end of our marriage.Aloha,
Ms.O

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Spiro:
TOM, Thank you for your prayers and your kind words. I need all the help I can get... You are so right about what you wrote in your last post... I try not to bring out the negative things in other people, but I just gotta tell about my H... I have come to the point of resenting him so much that I even hate to write the letter "H", which stands for husband. He always acted like no one had feelings except him. He always had to make all the decisions including the coat I would wear. He always said, he should make all the decisions, because he made the bigger pay check. YUK!! I can't believe I put up with it all these years. I didn't agree with him wanting to buy a new boat. Instead I wanted to fix up the unfinished basement in our new home. WELL, because I didn't want to go with him to look at it he picks me up off the couch by the back of my dress a pushes me out to his new truck and asks me why I hate him... This was long before the affair. You are so right. He didn't care about complaints or things that bothered other people. My family saw all of that in him, but I didn't. I couldn't understand why they didnt like him, but I see it now. I just lost respect and then started resenting him. And now I hope he leaves peacefully like we both agreed. A person can only take so much.. I could go on and on. I am so sorry for going on like this, I usually keep these kind of things to myself. I can certainly say that I am not in any kind of fog I want no part of him. All of what I have just written proves that you are right . It takes two to make a marriage. Mine is beyond repair. Don't get me wrong he is not all bad, he just has this need to be in control of everything. I think my time of "obeying" him is over. Sorry again, you really hit a sore spot. I don't even discuss things with family or friend<hr></blockquote>Dear Spiro,
Oh my I'm soooo sorry, I did not not your situation was like that. You should have told me! I'm sorry I didn't answer you earlier but I just got home, earlier I was on the "musicians spouse" thread & then I went to a local restraunt here for dinner and to play some trivia (in which I'm terrible at) [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img]
Wow spiro, In your situation you need to talk with someone because when you are being abused and hold it in that can be very destructive for you. It almost sounds like your in a Nazi prison camp! Noone deserves that treatment, who does he think your are his dog? People treat their dog better then that [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] You are a very nice person & I can now understand better why and how your feeling. My dad always raised us to respect a Lady & YOU never get physical! Geeks who can't beat up men or are afraid have to beat up women!I noticed you used the word hate & that you hate him, I can understand why & how you have that feeling. I try not to hate anyone and sometimes its hard, but when you have hate in your body it takes up space that can be for good, it can consume you if you let it. I dont know if I can explain this properly, let me try. When someone hurts you a normal response is hurt then anger and in your situation it leads to resentment. So, I would not let him have you be a person that can hate, be a better person then him and look at him as a Loser. He probably was raised that way or in a bad environment so you cant hate him for it, but that also doesn't excuse his actions. One thing that is apparent is, you don't deserve that, noone does. In church you can hear this alot as (in my own words) the priest talks of love, when people hurt you and destroy you don't hate them, Love them. It didn't make sense to me at first but its the same when Dr. Harley speaks about how to deal with a cheating spouse. When your nice even when they are ugly to you, they will eventually feel bad (unless they are a PLAYER) because later on they will remember you as being nice even though they were ugly, but you will always remember them as being ugly. I try to look at it like this and I'm working on it, when a person does this to me I try to have an attitude like "Shake your head at them and think ,Loser" and walk away. The little I tried it so far works and I feel much better, instead of being consumed with hate because Life is Too Short!You deserve much better and it takes alot for someone who acts the way he is acting to really change. It doesn't sound like he has it in his character to change.Sincerely, Tom[ October 26, 2001: Message edited by: Tomstocks ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Spiro:
I accidentally hit the wrong key, but as I said, I usually keep things to myself. Tom I hope if you have feelings for your x girl friend you two can work things out. As you always post "Life is too short". Hopefully the break up between you two will make you both want to work on the relationship and when you do get back together it will be better than ever. I hope Estes is ok. I haven't heard from her in awhile. I miss her input. I hope her family is doing alright. And Tom I appreciate you being honest and forward in your post. I believe that approach helps people a lot. Who (whothehellisshe) made a statement that really opened my eyes. It went something like "if he is unwilling to give up a unhappy marriage for you then he must not think a whole lot of you" It made a difference in how I felt. I wish you and your girlfriend the best.<hr></blockquote>Spiro,
I appreciate your concern in this matter but I understand the situation too well. I don't want to get into it so I will just say: After looking at it objectively, it wasn't our relationship but rather individual lifestyles that got in the way. Talk is cheap as one can say they want this or they want that in life, but ones actions and how they live their life and what they are doing shows their true colors (what they really want). Some are confused and don't even know what they want and just because they "DO BELIEVE" themself that they want it, they dont know how to act in order to get it. example: If you say you want to be a doctor. Instead of going to college for 8 years & get your degree, you spend you time in the bars and do drugs and never goto college how will you ever become a doctor. You won't!
Everything is getting much better. In looking back, I can honestly say I should have known better. When you fall in Love and it feels so right you just want it to work so bad, you give it many chances sometimes too many. You can't fall in Love with someones potential. Enough of this though [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] thanks again, Tom

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Ms.O:
Just wanted to add to this discussion a link to a book that I've recently read and is about this very topic....Moral Earthquakes & Secret FaultsI believe 100% in my heart that my H's addition to internet porn and his "secret faults" are what set of the "earthquake" of his affair, and ultimately the end of our marriage.Aloha,
Ms.O<hr></blockquote>Welcome Ms. O,
Hi and thank you for the Link as I will check it out. Feel free to get invovled with our discussions as we have some nice people here. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Tom

Hi Tom and Estes, I stayed up late replying to your post, but wasn't able to send them. Thank you both for your concern. I am going to try and send this one.

Yeah! I made it back... It is good to be back. Isn't is funny how you can open up to people that you don't have to face? I would never be able to talk people about these things face to face... Thank you both for your concern. You know I didn't realize how much resentment I had in me until I wrote it all down last night. Replying to your post Estes, yes, I do have people to talk to, I guess, I just hate to burden people with my problems.But I guess, you are right. It is abuse. I never thought of it like that. He really doesn't physically abuse me. He has gotten mad a few times and pushed me or something. I think, he might have actually hit me once. But I guess, there is a lot of emotional abuse. We had a chance to move back to KY. He was going to get a transfer with his company. I was reluctant to give up my job, but I thought at least, I would be back there with my family. Well, we had the house up for sale and it almost sold. The papers were almost completed. And out of the blue, he decides he really didn't want that transfer after all. So without even asking me, he tells them he will stay. They approached him and asked if he really wanted to go and he said "not really". I wish he would have talked it over with me before I quit my job. But of course my feelings or opinion don't count because he makes the bigger paycheck . Sorry here I go again...
Anyway, it worked out for the best after all. I got my old job back with a big raise and not only that but I just got an even bigger promotion about a month ago. I was really fortunate... I didn't realize it before, but it really helps just writting this down. Thank you for letting me as they say here on MB "letting me vent".Estes, I hope your family is doing ok. I think of them often. And you are not at all asking personal questions. It makes me feel good to know someone cares. And Tom thank you so much for your prayers. I can't believe you both have been so kind after I told about you about what I was mixed up in.I guess, it is only fair to add that "H" is not all bad. He really is a giving person. To me that is important. But it is too bad that I lost respect for him. Miss O, That looks like a really interesting site you added. I am looking forward to checking it out.I'm sure glad, I am still able to communicate with you all.

I often wonder where some people get the idea that they are so special or superior that they can treat others with disrespect as a matter of routine, much like your H, Spiro. I firmly believe that this is a form of emotional abuse. No one can be expected to tolerate treatment like that. But it does take strength to break away. I think that it will help in future relationships to understand what kept the abused spouse/person in the relationship beyond the time he/she should have left. Love? Financial security? Fear of being alone? The belief that they deserve that kind of treatment? The hope that an abusive person will change and reach his/her true potential? Determined commitment? It's all so complex!Son, DIL, and grandson will spend the night here tomorrow night. S is driving them back to her state after GS's surgery in S's town. DIL is avoiding serious relationship talk, is stressed and anxious, and wants to be back "home." No real progress as DIL says that although S is doing everything right in his plan A, she doesn't know if she will feel anything for him again. Sigh.Estes[ October 27, 2001: Message edited by: Estes49 ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Estes49:
I often wonder where some people get the idea that they are so special or superior that they can treat others with disrespect as a matter of routine, much like your H, Spiro and your XGF, Tom. I firmly believe that this is a form of emotional abuse. No one can be expected to tolerate treatment like that. But it does take strength to break away. I think that it will help in future relationships to understand what kept the abused spouse/person in the relationship beyond the time he/she should have left. Love? Financial security? Fear of being alone? The belief that they deserve that kind of treatment? The hope that an abusive person will change and reach his/her true potential? Determined commitment? It's all so complex!Son, DIL, and grandson will spend the night here tomorrow night. S is driving them back to her state after GS's surgery in S's town. DIL is avoiding serious relationship talk, is stressed and anxious, and wants to be back "home." No real progress as DIL says that although S is doing everything right in his plan A, she doesn't know if she will feel anything for him again. Sigh.Estes<hr></blockquote> [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] The xgf found that comment very unfair!

Sorry tmsgirl,You are right. My statement was too generalizing. It was wrong to imply that you were abusive like Spiro's H. See edited post. My apology. Estes

Hi Estes, I am really sorry for your son and his situation. You know, it won't be long and there is not going to be any such thing as a family.. I really do believe that. Pretty scary, isn't it? Anyway, Estes I stayed in this marriage for many of the reasons that you listed above. It is really a shame that a child has to be abused and will go with anything or anyone who will show them slightest bit of attention....And when that child has a chance to see what the real world is like, they realize they made a mistake in marrying the wrong person. Sometimes people stay in abusive relationships, because they don't know any better. They are taught when they are young that they are no body and are a burden to their parents. Children live what they learn....... They think the abuse is normal, because they know no different.Enough of that!!! I guess, that is one reason why I don't think God is so against divorce as I grew up believeing. I always believed divorce is wrong, because God didn't like it. But later I realized that God doesn't like hate either. I think he would rather see people separate than to be miserable... You know, I can't believe, I got this last job promotion ( I have no self confidence). But a part of me feels like God helped it along, I mean it was a miracle, there were too many people who were more quaified than me who appolied. Anyway, I can't hardly believe that God would help me, considering the mess I was in. I am very thankful, but still too ashamed to go to church and tell him so.Here I go again. I don't mean to go on and on about my problems. Estes I really had so much hope for your son. Maybe there is still hope. I am having a hard time with my situation. But I deserve everything I get. He keeps calling and leaving messages on my voice mail, even though I have asked him not to. I don't have much of a choice but to answer the phone at work. He is trying really hard. I think, I should meet with him to talk. Maybe, then he will fully understand. On the other hand, mabe I shouldn't.I have to tell you about a game we played at a baby shower we had at work yesterday. There were 10 pampers with numbers marked on the outside from 1-10. Inside the pampers were melted (microwave) candy bars. You know what that looked like! We had a piece of paper and had to guess what candy bar was in each pamper. I honestly, literally gagged. It was so gross, especially the one that had coconut in it. We were told we were allowed to smell it and taste it, but weren't allowed to eat it all. It was so funny!Anyway, I better get some things done. I appreciate everyone of you very much.

QUOTE]Originally posted by Estes49:
I often wonder where some people get the idea that they are so special or superior that they can treat others with disrespect as a matter of routine, much like your H, Spiro and your XGF, Tom. I firmly believe that this is a form of emotional abuse. No one can be expected to tolerate treatment like that. But it does take strength to break away. I think that it will help in future relationships to understand what kept the abused spouse/person in the relationship beyond the time he/she should have left. Love? Financial security? Fear of being alone? The belief that they deserve that kind of treatment? The hope that an abusive person will change and reach his/her true potential? Determined commitment? It's all so complex!Son, DIL, and grandson will spend the night here tomorrow night. S is driving them back to her state after GS's surgery in S's town. DIL is avoiding serious relationship talk, is stressed and anxious, and wants to be back "home." No real progress as DIL says that although S is doing everything right in his plan A, she doesn't know if she will feel anything for him again. Sigh.Estes[/QUOTE]
Hello Estes & Spiro [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]
It's always so good to see you guys and I look forward to seeing your posts, its like a breathe of fresh air. I just got in and thought I would answer your posts. I had a refreshing time having fun last night dancing a bit. Sometimes you just have to take the first step.Dear Estes, I feel for your son and God I know what he is going through as I've been there! He probably feels so helpless, empty & confused. there is nothing we can do about the DIL as it sounds like she made up her mind so the focus should be on your S, especially with her moving. Let her go, maybe thats what she needs in order to get her thoughts and feelings straightened out. The most important thing that I think will help your S is your Love & Care for him that a Mother can give. I speak from experience as there's no better feeling then to know that the person Loves you endlessly & unconditionally, noone shows you that better, then your mom. Sometimes I cry as I 'm getting off the phone with my mom because I feel the Love in her voice when she tells me she loves me, I KNOW SHE DOES and there's no better feeling. It will do the same for your S and he will feel great, that feeling will give him strength and take some of the pain away that he is going through. In church tomorrow I will say a prayer for him and his situation.I agree with you Estes about what you said in your first sentence and its disgusting because betrayal like emotional and verbal is a form of abuse that people take for granted. Alot of people think (you would be surprised) that its not abuse until it gets physical. Thats wrong!
I am guilty of name calling AFTER I get betrayed and marriage counselors go into this in depth as they state its a normal reaction when we get hurt, I also remember this from school, it has to do with our body's defense mechanism kicking in. But after the damage is done and you do something wrong it won't help the situation, as 2 wrongs dont make a right. I don't want to do this as it does drain the Love Bank as Dr. H speaks of because its a major Love Buster.
I'm proud of myself as the very last time this happened we got back together, she slept with this guy and came home to me that very same day and slept with me. I didn't call her names as I asked her to tell me the truth and she did and I thought that was going to be the beginning of that person changing. I always explained to her after I knew I could be with her forever that HONESTY & LOYALTY are the 2 most important qualities I need in the person that I plan to marry because I believe they are the foundation of a strong marriage/relationship. I was proud of her for being honest and felt good in a way even though I also felt hurt. I from then on watched her actions and spoke to someone where she works and she didn't change, she became more SNEAKY & CAREFUL. So then when she didn't come home from work (later in the week) after I prepared a nice dinner and was waiting for her, I left. I got upset with the little white lies, as with a player where there is little lies there are bigger ones you dont know about. I get so hurt that someone can just be with someonelse, then I get angry and tell them what they are, even though its a fact but 2 wrongs dont make a right. What I'm guilty of, is my REACTION to someones betrayal as I would never be disrespectful otherwise. It cracks me up how otherwise the relationship is great & what kills it is the lack of character and morals of the other person in the first place. Now lets look at a different scenario, what if the person is guilty of DESTRUCTIVE BEHAVIOR, LIES & CHEATING and just denies it? I've seen these type of people just go from person to person because if they are not with you they will just go with someonelse (very shallow) and all you have to do is look at their past relationships to see this. Promiscuous behavior lacks character & morals. But ask them and they think they are an angel even when half the town will call them a SLEEZE. They say they have alot to offer, what an STD & Dishonesty, wow these people make me laugh. Then they tell you they want to study relationships so they can know how to make them last (in the future), well the answer to that statement is right in front of them, all they have to do is look in the mirror and they will see the problem.Dr. Barbara DeAngelis has some Great advice pertaining to players; she states that "Some people never change, when they get caught in betrayal the next time instead of trying to make a change they just try harder not to get caught". In other words they become more clever and sneaky. There are many forms of betrayal as she states from Lies to cheating and I strongly believe it comes right down to a person's character and morals.
God Bless talk to you guys tonight!Tom[ October 27, 2001: Message edited by: Tomstocks ]

Hello,Yea! We got an extra hour of sleep with changing daylight savings time. Actually, because GS was here overnight, I got less. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] He camped out (slept), in a big cardboard box rather than in bed. He had his pillow and everything inside. Really cute. It was a good visit, not strained between DIL and us or S, at least not obvious on the surface. I am thankful. S still intends to move to her new town in December.{{{{Spiro}}}} Please listen to this. God loves you. Period. No doubt. You do not need to be in church to talk to God. Find a quiet place, and talk to Him. Tell Him that you need and want Him and the Holy Spirit to be active in your life. Tell Him that you are sorry for any wrongs you have done, knowingly or unknowingly. Then - accept, just accept -that you are forgiven. This is what God's grace is about. God loves us unconditionally in spite of what we have done. The beauty of God's grace is that you are ALREADY forgiven. You just need to open your heart and ask. If God forgives you, can't you forgive yourself.Also, DO NOT SEE OM IN PERSON!!!!!!!! PLEEEEASE!!!Tom, Thank you for the prayers. I believe that God heals us, maybe not in the ways we think are best (i.e. saving the marriage/relationship), but He does.You are right about the unconditional love. One thing that DIL has always noted is our unconditional love for our children (S and D). Her mother's love is 100% conditional. She is always trying to keep her mother pacified and never does quite enough. I think that is part of DIL's problem. She has trouble accepting that she doesn't have to earn people's love. I wonder if your X (Hello, tmsgirl.) feels that she is not loveable unless she is showered with the attention of lots of people. Maybe she can't accept that the devotion of one person is enough for her to make her worthy and "loved." Therefore, the bar scene and multiple lovers who actually aren't sharing true love, just lust. People who pursue shallow relationship after shallow relationship can't be at peace with themselves.Peace to all. Estes

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Estes49:
Hello,Yea! We got an extra hour of sleep with changing daylight savings time. Actually, because GS was here overnight, I got less. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] He camped out (slept), in a big cardboard box rather than in bed. He had his pillow and everything inside. Really cute. It was a good visit, not strained between DIL and us or S, at least not obvious on the surface. I am thankful. S still intends to move to her new town in December.{{{{Spiro}}}} Please listen to this. God loves you. Period. No doubt. You do not need to be in church to talk to God. Find a quiet place, and talk to Him. Tell Him that you need and want Him and the Holy Spirit to be active in your life. Tell Him that you are sorry for any wrongs you have done, knowingly or unknowingly. Then - accept, just accept -that you are forgiven. This is what God's grace is about. God loves us unconditionally in spite of what we have done. The beauty of God's grace is that you are ALREADY forgiven. You just need to open your heart and ask. If God forgives you, can't you forgive yourself.Also, DO NOT SEE OM IN PERSON!!!!!!!! PLEEEEASE!!!Tom, Thank you for the prayers. I believe that God heals us, maybe not in the ways we think are best (i.e. saving the marriage/relationship), but He does.You are right about the unconditional love. One thing that DIL has always noted is our unconditional love for our children (S and D). Her mother's love is 100% conditional. She is always trying to keep her mother pacified and never does quite enough. I think that is part of DIL's problem. She has trouble accepting that she doesn't have to earn people's love. I wonder if your X (Hello, tmsgirl.) feels that she is not loveable unless she is showered with the attention of lots of people. Maybe she can't accept that the devotion of one person is enough for her to make her worthy and "loved." Therefore, the bar scene and multiple lovers who actually aren't sharing true love, just lust. People who pursue shallow relationship after shallow relationship can't be at peace with themselves.Peace to all. Estes<hr></blockquote>Yea! We got an extra hour of sleep with changing daylight savings time. Actually, because GS was here overnight, I got less. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] He camped out (slept), in a big cardboard box rather than in bed. He had his pillow and everything inside. Really cute. It was a good visit, not strained between DIL and us or S, at least not obvious on the surface. I am thankful. S still intends to move to her new town in December.{{{{Spiro}}}} Please listen to this. God loves you. Period. No doubt. You do not need to be in church to talk to God. Find a quiet place, and talk to Him. Tell Him that you need and want Him and the Holy Spirit to be active in your life. Tell Him that you are sorry for any wrongs you have done, knowingly or unknowingly. Then - accept, just accept -that you are forgiven. This is what God's grace is about. God loves us unconditionally in spite of what we have done. The beauty of God's grace is that you are ALREADY forgiven. You just need to open your heart and ask. If God forgives you, can't you forgive yourself.Also, DO NOT SEE OM IN PERSON!!!!!!!! PLEEEEASE!!!Tom, Thank you for the prayers. I believe that God heals us, maybe not in the ways we think are best (i.e. saving the marriage/relationship), but He does.You are right about the unconditional love. One thing that DIL has always noted is our unconditional love for our children (S and D). Her mother's love is 100% conditional. She is always trying to keep her mother pacified and never does quite enough. I think that is part of DIL's problem. She has trouble accepting that she doesn't have to earn people's love. I wonder if your X (Hello, tmsgirl.) feels that she is not loveable unless she is showered with the attention of lots of people. Maybe she can't accept that the devotion of one person is enough for her to make her worthy and "loved." Therefore, the bar scene and multiple lovers who actually aren't sharing true love, just lust. People who pursue shallow relationship after shallow relationship can't be at peace with themselves.Peace to all. Estes[/QB][/QUOTE]Dear Estes,Its sooooooooo good to hear from you! As usual your post is so accurate and true and you are right. With your help your son will do fine and I know you will help him through this, as he probably doesnt realize it but he has access to a counselor right in front of him.How was your night with everyone? Did they leave to go back?I told the xgf the same things you posted and I hope one day she comes to her senses with this. Maybe hearing these things from other people will help! But her so called roomate who she lives with is a big player and gives her bad advice for his own benefit. When he was married my xgf would goto his house when his wife would goto work. How convenient? I know him and he his a big player, his life evolves around Lying, Deciet & multiple women and thats his business but thats why his wife threw him out and divorced him. I know my xgf and him play but they think they are smart and sneaky , her loss. estes she will eventually see what you just stated, but probably many years from now and she will really kick herself in the butt! People like him dont believe in love and thats why his wife divorced him! When he gives my exgf advice its to benefit him not her, hes very STREET smart! But down the road she will see. estes, you are sooooo good as you won't believe this but she actually said EXACTLY what you posted! One of her last relationships of years with a guy who went to prison for 4 years for dealing cocaine, she told me she never loved him as it was just LUST! I can't believe you hit the nail right on the head when you mentioned lust. Love Tom,[ October 28, 2001: Message edited by: Tomstocks ]

I agree with you about the importance of morals and character. It has been my experience and observation that people who lie and cheat go through life using mainly "feelings" instead of intellect as their compass. These people have no belief system or philosophy which can give them guidance and self-discipline.As a result there is no structure to their lives only chaos. It is the intellectual ability to reason and make choices that distinguishes man from animal. A human being can behave like an animal but an animal cannot behave like a human being.If you want to see a website that caters to people who behave like animals go to the following:http://www.philanderers.on.ca/

Hi Max,
I've not read any of your previous post, but I can certainly tell you are a BS.. You know, not everyone who has an affair is an animal. By the way, why would you post a web site like that??? I can understand your bitterness, but why take it out on us??

You are so right, max, about the intellectual ability to reason and make choices. Where did we
(the collective "we" here) ever develop the idea that just because we want something, we have the right to have it? Ever want that bright red sports car? Did you lie and scheme and take it?
I'll bet you didn't! Why? Because you really didn't want it - or because it was wrong?We use our head and our value system to choose what is right rather than what we want. Do people who behave morally and who do not choose self-indulgence do so because they have weaker desires than those who give in to their desires? I think not. Does it hurt to deny yourself? Sure it does. Been there; done that.More importantly, I guess, is the question of how can we instill the ethic of doing what is right in our children. Is self-sacrifice hopelessly out-of-date?A recent religious column in our paper stated that the main cause of the failure of marriages is selfishness, that selfish marriages usually fail while marriages in which the partners behaved unselfishly usually last. It's an interesting thought. Could it be that unselfish people are making the conscious moral choice to repress their desires for a greater good?BTW, though [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] , as an animal lover, I object to the negative reference to animals. Estes

Hi Tom and Estes, Good to hear from both of you.
Estes, I was so happy to hear that the visit with your son and DIL went so well.. I just knew it would. As Tom said, you are so right! As always! You have so much widom. You are a blessing to all of us. I'm so glad your here. Something you posted about your DIL also brougt to mind something I always felt and that is if your parents don't love you, you don't ever feel like anyone else could... I see your faith and I wish so much that I hadn't gotten so far away from God. I know what you are saying is right, but I just feel so ashamed. Not long ago, I went to a local church to hear Sandi Patty sing, and the guilt was so bad that I couldn't hardly sit there. It was over whelming. And you know, I can't pretend that I didn't know what I was getting into. I remember a guy talking about how he over came drug addiction with God's help. He said, nothing could ever make him stray away from God. He challenged God and said, "try me". Well the poor guy fell flat on his face. But he did get back on track, because now he is a preacher.. The funny thing is, when he was telling us about that, I felt the same way. I felt, I was so close to God that nothing could ever pull me away... When I get this guy completely out of my life, I will be so looking forward to going back to church with a clear conscience. Tom I am so glad that you are able to handle your relationship the way you are. I mean it's as if a light turned on and you saw things the way they really are. I can't wait to get to that stage. I wish, God would open my eyes and let me see things the way they really are. I think, I am still in denial or something, I don't know...I just wish, I wasn't in this situation. Estes, you know all the horrors of childhood tend to leave scars, but I don't think that is an excuse to hurt others and to do wrong. An example is, a child is abused and then grows up and abuses his child and then blames it on his parents. I think that is a cop out. If a child is abused then they should know how it feels and not want to put anyone else through the same thing. In other words if a child did not have a perfect child hood that does not give him the excuse to be an abusive adult in any situation.I don't know why I write these things to you. You probably already know that. I admire your wisdom. And as always, I appreciate you both..... The OP called last night. At first I hung up on him and then felt bad and talked to him when he called back. He wants to talk to me...I'm not sure how to handle this. It isn't fair to hurt him either, is it??? If I felt he just used me and didn't care then it would be easy.... Ester I am so so glad you never experienced this.. I wish, I had never crossed the line. You know I think, that is one reason God hates sin. He sees how we hurt our selves and not only that, but he sees how it separates us from him by not being able to even pray.....

A very perceptive and interesting comment, Spiro:[[You know I think, that is one reason God hates sin. He sees how we hurt our selves and not only that, but he sees how it separates us from him by not being able to even pray..... ]]I was taught long ago that sin was defined as anything that separates a person from God.[[Something you posted about your DIL also brougt to mind something I always felt and that is if your parents don't love you, you don't ever feel like anyone else could...]]I can hardy imagine anything as sad as the feeling that your parent does not cherish you. I realize how fortunate my sister and I were to have parents, grandparents, and other relatives that loved us unconditionally. In that secure environment, we were free to enjoy our childhood and deal with other concerns. Even the perception of being unworthy of being loved by a parent is damaging. My D is adopted. After years of discontent and a degree of disfunction, she finally got counseling and realized that she had deep resentment for her birth-mother who my D subconsciously believed had abandoned her because she was unlovable. D went through several physically and verbally abusive relationships and was suicidal before becoming strong enough to change how she relates to people and to herself. Are you close to your family?I really hope you can forgive yourself. You obviously care about being a good person.Estes

Spiro,These are just my thoughts ... but it seems as though now is exactly the time when you need God. You need Him to put thoughts of the OM out of your mind. You need Him to help you pump love back into your marriage. God will help you do *anything* you want - if it's for the good of your H and your marriage. However, I doubt that God has much sympathy for the OM at this point. You made the absolute correct decision in hanging up that phone the first time, hon. That was God guiding you to do the right thing. RE: "The OP called last night. At first I hung up on him and then felt bad and talked to him when he called back. He wants to talk to me...I'm not sure how to handle this. It isn't fair to hurt him either, is it???"Fairness has nothing to do with it ... is it fair to your H that you spoke with OM? Either way you act, it's going to be "unfair" to one of the two parties, so you're in a Catch-22 situation. Please rethink your statement. Instead of asking yourself if it is a fair thing to hurt the OM, ask yourself if it is the right and necessary thing to do. Selflessness sometimes involves a lot of pain ...belld

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by max:
I agree with you about the importance of morals and character. It has been my experience and observation that people who lie and cheat go through life using mainly "feelings" instead of intellect as their compass. These people have no belief system or philosophy which can give them guidance and self-discipline.As a result there is no structure to their lives only chaos. It is the intellectual ability to reason and make choices that distinguishes man from animal. A human being can behave like an animal but an animal cannot behave like a human being.If you want to see a website that caters to people who behave like animals go to the following:http://www.philanderers.on.ca/<hr></blockquote>Hello Max, Welcome to our thread [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Excellent post & I feel you made an interesting and accurate point. Some people thrive on chaos as "Normal" people thrive on stability. Your right about some people just reacting emotionaly instead of using a cognitive rational approach. Its good to feel but one must also include logic when reasoning/problem solving to be successful. And yes, these people usually do have a weak beliefe system. Tom

Tom, max, et. al., a question:How much do you think that an absence of boundaries or weak boundaries contribute to a person's chances of having an EMR? H always had/still has very weak boundaries when it comes to other people. Very much a "lemming" mentality. I used to joke with him a long time ago that he'd drink punch if Jim Jones offered it to him. What do you think about the boundary issue? Could this be at play here, too?belld

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by belldandy:
Spiro,These are just my thoughts ... but it seems as though now is exactly the time when you need God. You need Him to put thoughts of the OM out of your mind. You need Him to help you pump love back into your marriage. God will help you do *anything* you want - if it's for the good of your H and your marriage. However, I doubt that God has much sympathy for the OM at this point. You made the absolute correct decision in hanging up that phone the first time, hon. That was God guiding you to do the right thing. RE: "The OP called last night. At first I hung up on him and then felt bad and talked to him when he called back. He wants to talk to me...I'm not sure how to handle this. It isn't fair to hurt him either, is it???"Fairness has nothing to do with it ... is it fair to your H that you spoke with OM? Either way you act, it's going to be "unfair" to one of the two parties, so you're in a Catch-22 situation. Please rethink your statement. Instead of asking yourself if it is a fair thing to hurt the OM, ask yourself if it is the right and necessary thing to do. Selflessness sometimes involves a lot of pain ...belld<hr></blockquote>Dear Miss Dandy,
Welcome to our thread...Because of my recent background, I don't venture too far away from here.. I loved your reference to furchildren. That was so cute. I just love animals..I have a year old Lhasa Apso (dog) and I just love her. She knows when I am expected home from work, she will be on the bed watching out the window. SHe is just like a baby. She is very much loved and she knows it. Her name is Brandi. Anyway, I wanted to thank you for your advice. I want nothing to do with my marriage and I hope he leaves peacefully in Janurary as we both agreed. There is just too much bitterness and it is just too far gone... I couldn't even think of getting involved with someone else if it wasn't... I guess my biggest problem is just trying to stay away from the other person. Gosh, it's hard... I was so stupid for getting involved... I am trying.. You know it's funny about what you wrote about me hanging up on him. You mentioned that God some how interviened. Well anyway, the power went off today in the building I work at and I couldn't help but wonder if he tried to call (usually does at that time) and kept getting a busy signal. I know he thinks I am trying to advoid him.... Oh well. I noticed you said you and your H were still in the same houe. I just wonder if maybe God couldn't interviene and give you a forgiving heart and your H a heart that beats just for you? Hope you come back.

Hello, belldandy,By weak boundaries do you mean being easily swayed by other people? Not having very strong opinions or convictions? Or may be an example of a conflict avoider personality? I can envision a situation in which a strong-willed, or manipulative person could put enough pressure on a weak-willed person or a conflict avoider to persuade him to do something that he knows is wrong. I can see that personality type as having a terrible time withdrawing from an OP.However, this does not excuse that person from his responsibility in the situation. Counseling would probably be very helpful in helping this type of person understand himself better.I will have to go back and catch up with your situation. I'll be back later.Estes

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Estes49:
Hello, belldandy,By weak boundaries do you mean being easily swayed by other people? Not having very strong opinions or convictions? Or may be an example of a conflict avoider personality? I can envision a situation in which a strong-willed, or manipulative person could put enough pressure on a weak-willed person or a conflict avoider to persuade him to do something that he knows is wrong. I can see that personality type as having a terrible time withdrawing from an OP.However, this does not excuse that person from his responsibility in the situation. Counseling would probably be very helpful in helping this type of person understand himself better.I will have to go back and catch up with your situation. I'll be back later.Estes<hr></blockquote>Hi Estes,
You would certainly make a good counselor. I can tell you learned a lot from your daughter and the kids you work with... Did you ever think about a child who never felt loved or wanted by his/her parents? If a child feels unloved by the parents can you imagine that child trying to believe in someone they have never seen or felt loving them? Makes you wonder, doesn't it? I feel close enough to my family, but they live so far away. I have learned so much from these boards in such a short time. I hope the Harley's know how much they have helped people by allowing them to be here.

Estes49,I mean "boundaries" in that one doesn't fully assess the situation and goes ahead with it anyway. To me, a teenager who smokes pot because of peer pressure and simply because it was "available" without giving thought to the consequences would be an example of weak boundaries. Someone who is unable to say no to both other people - and to their own desires/wishes. Conflict avoidance certainly comes into play. I think that many times, people who get involved in EMRs aren't out to do something evil or malicious, even though the act itself certainly is, when considered in an objective context. For example, I have been "tempted" many times by other men and married men. What made me say no, whereas another MW in a bad marriage might have said yes? I have built very strong boundaries - in fact, went into counseling to develop them (believe me, I used to be a doormat for *everyone*). Parents set boundaries for their children ... but how many of them teach their children to set their own boundaries, so that when they become an adult they are functional human beings?Spiro - thanks for the clarification. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] I wish I had better words, better advice, to give you about the OM (MM?) but ... alas, I don't. I think that it's something that one would only completely understand if one had been in that situation. Telling you to forget about him isn't helpful ... advising you to pray might be more helpful, but still, it doesn't alieve your entire situation. I'm searching my mind to come up with clever "how to get out of this situation" advice, and I simply cannot find any. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] Just hang in there and trust in God. And remember, you have to help God help *you.* He will pull you up ... but first, you must extend your hand to Him.blessings to all,belld

Hello all,I think the boundaries we are talking about are plain old self-control. I don't know what specifically instills self-control. I'm sure parental example is one important factor. Religious training is probably a second. The person's inherent character may be a third. Selfishness vs self-sacrifice has to come in somewhere.All this takes us back to the title of this thread, Character and Morals. Some people are determined to do what is right inspite of temptations. In reality very few of us can resist all temptation all of the time. If we stumble, we pick ourselves up and do better next time, hopefully. If a person sees no value in doing what is right, that is hard to deal with._____________
{{{I think that many times, people who get involved in EMRs aren't out to do something evil or malicious, even though the act itself certainly is, when considered in an objective context.}}} belldandy
_______________
I hear what you are saying here, belldandy, but I go back to something I posted on another thread.""Yes, I fully believe that the initial attraction is unplanned. No one faults WS or OP for feelings.However, the actions the WS took WERE patentedly planned and deliberate ......Fortunately, some WS do PLAN to do the right thing, and if both spouses recommit, there is hope for the marriage. But, please!!! None of this "unplanned", "We didn't mean for it to happen." stuff. WS DO plan and they DO mean for it to happen, or it would not have happened. Nobody made them do it. It was their choice.""
______________Once the initial attraction has occurred, if the participants continue unrepentent, and they do not acknowledge that what they are doing is evil and that their actions are malicious (Betrayal IS malicious by definition.), then they have a real character problem and are not good candidates for sound committed relationships. I think I would be scared to death to try to find a new partner these days. How do you know who to trust? How do you know someone's character? It seems like so many here have discovered their partner's true character too late. I think that I would have to stick with my animals -major animal-lover here, dogs, cats, parrots. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] Good evening, Estes

Know whatcha mean, Estes. My kiddens have more integrity and character in their little dewclaws than most human beings have in their entire bodies. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] Lack of boundaries is manifested by a lack of self-control, certainly. But to me, lack of boundary setting also, to me, implies a certain mindset - that an individual really hasn't sat down and decided what they will or will not accept in their lives in terms of their interactions with other people. Some BS have very poor boundaries as well - certainly it is healthier to walk away from a marriage where a serial cheater is involved and there is no hope for change. But some people stay anyway.MelissaM

Very true, belldandy,I know that I think about my actions and people's reactions all the time*, but a lot of people do not. Their mindset simply does not include pondering the implications of their actions or specifically what they will tolerate from others. Don't know why.*Not that I'm special or anything. I don't mean that. Rather, as a teacher, you must consider the effect your actions have on others (i.e., the kids, parents) if you are to have a good relationship with them. You also have to decide in advance what behavior you will tolerate and what is out-of-bounds. Another thing to consider is, once you set boundaries, you have to lovingly maintain them.Estes

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Estes49:
Hello all,I think the boundaries we are talking about are plain old self-control. I don't know what specifically instills self-control. I'm sure parental example is one important factor. Religious training is probably a second. The person's inherent character may be a third. Selfishness vs self-sacrifice has to come in somewhere.All this takes us back to the title of this thread, Character and Morals. Some people are determined to do what is right inspite of temptations. In reality very few of us can resist all temptation all of the time. If we stumble, we pick ourselves up and do better next time, hopefully. If a person sees no value in doing what is right, that is hard to deal with._____________
{{{I think that many times, people who get involved in EMRs aren't out to do something evil or malicious, even though the act itself certainly is, when considered in an objective context.}}} belldandy
_______________
I hear what you are saying here, belldandy, but I go back to something I posted on another thread.""Yes, I fully believe that the initial attraction is unplanned. No one faults WS or OP for feelings.However, the actions the WS took WERE patentedly planned and deliberate ......Fortunately, some WS do PLAN to do the right thing, and if both spouses recommit, there is hope for the marriage. But, please!!! None of this "unplanned", "We didn't mean for it to happen." stuff. WS DO plan and they DO mean for it to happen, or it would not have happened. Nobody made them do it. It was their choice.""
______________Once the initial attraction has occurred, if the participants continue unrepentent, and they do not acknowledge that what they are doing is evil and that their actions are malicious (Betrayal IS malicious by definition.), then they have a real character problem and are not good candidates for sound committed relationships. I think I would be scared to death to try to find a new partner these days. How do you know who to trust? How do you know someone's character? It seems like so many here have discovered their partner's true character too late. I think that I would have to stick with my animals -major animal-lover here, dogs, cats, parrots. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] Good evening, Estes<hr></blockquote>Dear Estes,
Hi and how are you tonight? Yes it is a difficult decision (for some people), but like everyhtiing else in life its all about "checks and balances", "give and take", "debit and credit" & "good and evil". People who get bored with a stable (good life) nice environment need that excitement in their life! Did you ever hear the old saying "The Devil made me do it"? Like Al Pacino who played the devil in a movie called "The Devils Advocate" about a Law firm with Keanu Reeves, he told Keanu Reeves that humans love temptation as it is "The Bliss", your first kiss, your first time having sex with a person and when you first walk in a room at a crowded party as that adrenalin rush you get.Well yes I do agree that it alll comes down to a person's Character & Morals and that's why I started this thread so we might get a better understanding of how to identity these people and understand what makes them tick.It does come down to decisions and we must think of all the other people we can affect with the decisions that we make in life. I feel if we apply this along with other "careing
techniques" it is the first step in doing the right thing, sort of speak.I have to go now but I will get into this tomorrow more as its very important! Good night all! Tom

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Tomstocks:
Well yes I do agree that it alll comes down to a person's Character & Morals and that's why I started this thread so we might get a better understanding of how to identity these people and understand what makes them tick.<hr></blockquote>I'm not sure how you could identify someone with with better character and higher morals as opposed to someone who was just the opposite. This is where we get into the whole nurture or nature question. How much of who a person is is brought about by their upbringing and their community, and how much of it is innate? What was responsible for that monster Jeffrey Dahmer? By all accounts, his parents were decent upstanding people who did everything they could to make sure that he grew up with the right values.Unfortunately, things like character and morals are not easily quantifiable in the scientific world. They certainly aren't quantifiable in the real world, either. I had no idea what my H's character and morals were *really* like until we got married and he "dropped the act."belld

Hello Belldandy,When you talk about how much is inate and how much is from our society, you must realize the stages of life and during those stages what a child's learning curve is and the social impact. Two great magazines that cover this are called "Parenting" & "Child". They go through the different stages we go through and the age we are when we are in each stage. I remember from school that we get 80% of our personality programming as people by the age of 5. Pertainiing to your statement regarding what is from society; I feel it's very important to monitor WHO your children friend with as that can/but not always have just a big of impact on their future behavior or lifestyle. You can be the best parent teaching your children right from wrong and exposing them to the good in life but if they end up with the wrong group they can take the wrong path and do things you never expected. This is why the so called teenage years is so important (12 to 18) as they get more freedom and wonder further from home, they are exposed to more, influenced by peers and the values we instill in them as children will be tested. It becomes more apparent that for this reason it is very important to be involved with them as much as possible, to be there for them and to let them know they can talk with you about ANYTHING. If they are afraid to come to you for advice or with a problem then how can we help them make the right choice? So I think good character starts from young as our beliefe system is built, so if we grow up believing it is ok to Lie, steal or cheat we will condon this behavior and probably act this way as adults and the opposite will happen if we think it's wrong to do these things. There are ways to identify someones character/moral makeup and the way you go about this is by looking at their beliefe system and what their values are. Now this can take some time as in the beginning everyone is on their best behavior. But I find that concentrating on a person's characteristics rather then personality traits helps to paint a better picture. Example: You meet someone and they tell you they want to get married, want a family and like children, but their behavior is the opposite. In other words if their actions are not in correlation with their words then they are probably a Liar. We always find out about people with little or no character/morals as the dirty laundry always comes out in the wash. Its just a matter of time.

Belldandy,I can speak from experience on this and give you an example because I'm going through it right now. A good example of someone who you are talking about is what I call a PLAYER as they will look you right in the eye and LIE to you! Ask them if they still have contact with the OM, they say no and then listen to their phone messages and they still get calls from him. Discuss it with them and they get defensive and try to Lie their way through it. Then they will turn it around and try to make you look bad for checking up on them, hey its cheaper then paying for a private investigator. Then when they can't get away with it they just give up and go onto the next person. The point is people like this never change as they dont even think they are doing anything wrong because they have low character and very little morals. Look back at the posts of my Xgf (tmsgirl) and you can see it in her attitude as she thought she didn't cheat and Spiro really enlightened all of us with the statement she made to her. I almost fell off my seat when I read Spiro 's post because it's exactly what I used to tell my Xgf. We try and try, but like I stated many posts earlier that "one can't fall in Love with someone's POTENTIAL you must look at their actions" and the answer will be right there.These poeple make the choice to live their life in LIES & DECIET and they don't care who they hurt in the process! Alot of them play people to TRY to get ahead in life, sometimes they sleep with the boss, or play on other people's weak points to use them for their own benefit. You know how a chameleon changes it's colors well they change to fit in any situation, but ask them about this and they will just tell you that they are versatile, LOL. I need to go for something to eat, see you guys later. Tom

Tom,People who "play it down" when they do something hurtful are curious creatures. I don't think I will ever understand that mindset, and I'm not sure I even want to! But they still pique my curiosity. I'd be interested in reading the posts between Spiro and your ex. I'm not too familiar with the search functions, though. Can you post a link, please? Thanks & have a happy Halloween,belld

Hello everyone,belld, I'm butting in here - so you can do your homework before Tom's back on [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] . Go to page 5 in this thread. You can click on the page numbers at the top or bottom of each page. Tom's X is tmsgirl.Tom, by player are you meaning a manipulator? Dumb me. I was thinking you meant a party-person.
[img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] So we're talking about someone who is so totally self-centered that he uses people for his own purposes with no regard for the other person. I think I've got it now. If so, I agree that there is no changing an adult who has this mindset. My DIL is a manipulator. I think a lot of this is due to how she was raised by a mother who expected special treatment from her daughters. DIL grew up behaving in particular ways to get actions of approval from her mother . Now she behaves in certain ways to get others to say and do things the things she wants.
S fell for it for a long time. I just listen to her rationalizations and do what I want. No offense to the guys, but interestingly enough, the women in the family saw through her right away. The men did not see what she was doing.Spiro, how are you? How did you solve your dilemma about talking with OM?Happy Halloween, Estes

bump

Hey, Tom,How are you?I'm still here, lurking. Been thinking about starting a thread.I've read so many people's experiences struggling to maintain their dignity during the emotional onslaught of post d-day trauma and continued contact between WS and OP. (pleading, begging, tolerating truly degrading treatment, wanting to give up on life) Maybe it would be helpful to know what it was or how it happend that BSs were able to convince themselves that they did have real value, that they really would be OK, that they were strong enough to make it through all this and not allow themselves to be broken by their WS's disrespectful treatment.What do you think?Have you been reading Katie Scarlett's posts?Possibly an interesting values discussion here. How did we develop our personal value system? How do our value systems affect our choices in life, esp. relationships? Can value systems be characterized as right or wrong? Good or bad?
Are there standards for judging a value system?
Are values relative? Are there universal "good" values? What is the relationship among character, morals, and values?Food for thought.Estes

bump

Dear ESTES, Its very good to hear from you. Ive been very busy lately and not on MB. I have alot of work and personal things I've been working on (making it happen) sort of speaking . But I will look into what you said and post back after I look at scarlet's posts. How is everything with your son and the DIL? I hope well! How are you doing? Everything on my end is getting much better as far as my Love life, I've seen the light and dont feel angry towards tmsgirl anymore and that s when you know its better. I understand her and know that the things I was afraid of when we first met ended up being the demise of our relationship. But I can say she (in her own way) is a nice person. But thats water under the bridge. I will talkk to you soon. Tom
<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Estes49:
Hey, Tom,How are you?I'm still here, lurking. Been thinking about starting a thread.I've read so many people's experiences struggling to maintain their dignity during the emotional onslaught of post d-day trauma and continued contact between WS and OP. (pleading, begging, tolerating truly degrading treatment, wanting to give up on life) Maybe it would be helpful to know what it was or how it happend that BSs were able to convince themselves that they did have real value, that they really would be OK, that they were strong enough to make it through all this and not allow themselves to be broken by their WS's disrespectful treatment.What do you think?Have you been reading Katie Scarlett's posts?Possibly an interesting values discussion here. How did we develop our personal value system? How do our value systems affect our choices in life, esp. relationships? Can value systems be characterized as right or wrong? Good or bad?
Are there standards for judging a value system?
Are values relative? Are there universal "good" values? What is the relationship among character, morals, and values?Food for thought.Estes<hr></blockquote>