<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tomstocks:<BR><STRONG>bump</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img]does everyone think u are married? i know that does not matter, but the way u make things sound that u are an angel! why don't u explain your other side?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tmsgirl:<BR><STRONG><P> [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img]</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>going for a mountain bike ride, bbl...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tomstocks:<BR><STRONG><BR>going for a mountain bike ride, bbl...</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hey Tom,<P>Are you pretending to be an angel??? Or maybe it's me she's referring to...

Hey Dumplin,<P> You come on in here, we are very glad to have you...<P> Tom and Estes have both been a lot of help to me. Tom with his blunt and straight forward approach and Estes with his/her kind and wise approach. Both of them helped me a lot.<P> Gosh, it just occured to me that I don't know if Estes is a him or a her, but you know what? It doesn't matter!<P> Tom do you think you will be able to give up that person without regretting it the rest of your life???? I think, my problem is, I have always followed my heart and not used my head. YOU know better than I do that there are a lot of people like that. <P> I excercise every morning and it does wonders for me... I really do think it helps to keep the ugly depressed fellings away. I do it more for the mental benefits more so than the physical benefits.<P> I was just getting ready to stop posting before Dumplin came along. I thought a person with my recent back ground only added pain and HATE to a lot of hurting people here and I didn't want that.

I'm here Spiro. I thought this thread was very interesting. I guess since I'm married to a musician and wondering if it was our marriage or the livestyle of a musician that did more harm to our marriage. If that makes any sense. It just gave me alot to think about.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Spiro:<BR><STRONG><P>Hey Tom,<P>Are you pretending to be an angel??? Or maybe it's me she's referring to...</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>hi spiro, can we talk? [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] i don't bite!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tmsgirl:<BR><STRONG><P>hi spiro, can we talk? [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] i don't bite!</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Sure we can talk... I don't bite either..

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dumplin:<BR><STRONG>I'm here Spiro. I thought this thread was very interesting. I guess since I'm married to a musician and wondering if it was our marriage or the livestyle of a musician that did more harm to our marriage. If that makes any sense. It just gave me alot to think about.</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Dear Dummplin,<BR> I don't think your problems has anything at all to do with his being a musician. I think it has a lot to do with his maturity.... Is he mature enough to handle a wife and family. <P>I convinced myself that what I was doing was right. It made it easier to live with myself. Now I am not only hurting from turning away from someone who has been a big part of my life for the last year, but I also have to face the shame of what I had done.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Spiro:<BR><STRONG><P>Sure we can talk... I don't bite either..</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hi, I was tom's other half, and i am just a little upset of the things that he said! There are 2 sides to every story! We just met in febuary but it feels i known him forever! I fell in love with him, but he is so deep, i try to understand him but to him i am always wrong! Everything is based on my past,it dosen't matter if it's not true, he believes what he want's to! There is no one i would rather be with then him, i wish he could believe that! I was happy with him! I gave up a child with him because he said he wouldn't be there, and i still love him, why? i just need everyone to know that i do want a familly, we were apart for over a month, and yes i told him i was with someone, but he told me he wanted nothing to do with me, i do not consider that cheating, his words were so hurtful, no one would put up with that! Would you consider that cheating? I believed it was over, even though i still loved him, his words killed me, drinking of course! i'm sorry, thank u for listening! bye cm! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Hi Spiro,<P>See how the cycle goes? Isn't it neat? Now you have to opportunity to help others.<P>BTW, I'm a school teacher grandmom from West Texas. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <P>Let me know whenever you want to talk. <P>Estes

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Spiro:<BR><STRONG>Hey Dumplin,<P> You come on in here, we are very glad to have you...<P> Tom and Estes have both been a lot of help to me. Tom with his blunt and straight forward approach and Estes with his/her kind and wise approach. Both of them helped me a lot.<P> Gosh, it just occured to me that I don't know if Estes is a him or a her, but you know what? It doesn't matter!<P> Tom do you think you will be able to give up that person without regretting it the rest of your life???? I think, my problem is, I have always followed my heart and not used my head. YOU know better than I do that there are a lot of people like that. <P> I excercise every morning and it does wonders for me... I really do think it helps to keep the ugly depressed fellings away. I do it more for the mental benefits more so than the physical benefits.<P> I was just getting ready to stop posting before Dumplin came along. I thought a person with my recent back ground only added pain and HATE to a lot of hurting people here and I didn't want that.</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> Thank you Spiro,<BR>I really care and wish the best for your situation and believe that as we all help each other we all will feel better in the long run. Please don't ever leave us as I feel we are friends and can help each other. I admire the progress you've made and your going to come out on top. I really appreciate your compliments as it makes me feel great to know that I meant someting or helped someone, besides that I did include you in my prayers yesterday morning in church. You also have helped me whether you realized it or not, very much in many ways!<P>One thing to everyone in OUR thread is I want to apologize for my ex GF coming here and acting childish, I have no control of it but I did report it to the moderator and hope it will be taken care of. I tried to tell her this is not the place to discuss this, we are here to help each other but she insists I'm only telling my side of the story, BS , professionally speaking I tried to end it with her nicely and I understand she is mad and hurt but that is no reason to act this way. It will do no good to talk in front of the world about this so I asked her to be an adult about this and I hope she will.<P>I did mention in my previous posts about my problem that Dr. Harley talks about of speaking disrespectfully to your spouse, but I'm sorry I have character and when you screw someonelse then come home to me and make Love I get offended. On top of that she had the nerve to be with me knowing she had HERPES and never told me until we were together in which is wrong too. We can go on here all night about this but I will not allow myself to fall for her games because she feels guilty or looks bad, sheeeeeeeesh noone even knows her here and look at my past posts as I never even gave a clue to her identity. That would be devistating and wrong which is not me. I will not lower myself to her level. <BR>So i will again apologize for her actions.<P>I plan on attending Dr. Harleys seminar. I love helping people along with coming here to get support also, but if this continues with my ex I must leave and I'm sorry for those of you who like the Topic I started. <BR>God Bless Tom,<P>[ October 24, 2001: Message edited by: Tomstocks ]<BR> [img]images/icons/blush.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/blush.gif" border="0[/img]<P>[ October 24, 2001: Message edited by: Tomstocks ]<P>[ October 24, 2001: Message edited by: Tomstocks ]<P>[ October 24, 2001: Message edited by: Tomstocks ]<P>[ October 24, 2001: Message edited by: Tomstocks ]<p>[ October 24, 2001: Message edited by: Tomstocks ]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tmsgirl:<BR><STRONG><P>Hi, I was tom's other half, and i am just a little upset of the things that he said! There are 2 sides to every story! We just met in febuary but it feels i known him forever! I fell in love with him, but he is so deep, i try to understand him but to him i am always wrong! Everything is based on my past,it dosen't matter if it's not true, he believes what he want's to! There is no one i would rather be with then him, i wish he could believe that! I was happy with him! I gave up a child with him because he said he wouldn't be there, and i still love him, why? i just need everyone to know that i do want a familly, we were apart for over a month, and yes i told him i was with someone, but he told me he wanted nothing to do with me, i do not consider that cheating, his words were so hurtful, no one would put up with that! Would you consider that cheating? I believed it was over, even though i still loved him, his words killed me, drinking of course! i'm sorry, thank u for listening! bye cm! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hi Tomsgrl,<P> I can tell Tom has been hurt deeply. You have to see his side also. You mentioned you were apart for just over a month and you were already with someone else??? That tells me a lot. If you truly love someone can you really be with someone else, especially in that short of time?<P> Please try to understand I am not judging. I am in no position to do that. I mean look at what I've done.<P> Tom seems like a really neat person, he had to love you to be hurt like that. <BR> I hope you two can work things out. And like Tom said, you have to be honest with every one including YOURSELF. Please both of you keep in touch. And Tom, you can't leave now!!!!!!<P> It is good to see you back Estes!

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Spiro:
<strong><p>Hi Tomsgrl,<p> I can tell Tom has been hurt deeply. You have to see his side also. You mentioned you were apart for just over a month and you were already with someone else??? That tells me a lot. If you truly love someone can you really be with someone else, especially in that short of time?<p> Please try to understand I am not judging. I am in no position to do that. I mean look at what I've done.<p> Tom seems like a really neat person, he had to love you to be hurt like that.
I hope you two can work things out. And like Tom said, you have to be honest with every one including YOURSELF. Please both of you keep in touch. And Tom, you can't leave now!!!!!!<p> It is good to see you back Estes!</strong><hr></blockquote><p>
Dear Spiro,
wow thank you so much! Your are 100% right, when you love someone it should be hard to go with someonelse. I feel the same and know I couldn't. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] I just can't understand & don't know how to deal with it because Honesty and Loyalty is so important to me. I see that the more character someone has & the more you Love someone the more you get hurt when your betrayed. This is when I make the mistake of making direspectful judgement & statements in which I know is wrong because 2 wrongs don't make a right. I am now learning how to deal with this and will work very hard in the future to do the right thing.<p>Spiro I would like to be more sympathetic in my posts but you are right I'm the type of person that is right to the point because when you look at the facts and be honest with yourself and others its easier to see through the fog (clear). Have you noticed how counselors sometimes seem non-sympathetic, thats because they sometimes have to tell a person something they don't want to hear and when we don't like what we hear sometimes we have a tendancy to think this.<p>Spiro thank you for being so careing and honest as sometimes the truth hurts but in the long run the truth pays off. I would rather hear the truth and take the pain, then to avoid the truth just to feel good about myself. I always value your advice and you being here on our thread. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Tom<p>[ October 24, 2001: Message edited by: Tomstocks ]<p>[ October 24, 2001: Message edited by: Tomstocks ]</p>

[img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Hi Spiro,
I just wanted to add something to the paragraph that I posted previously about counseling methods and approach.<p>Spiro I would like to be more sympathetic in my posts but you are right I'm the type of person that is right to the point because when you look at the facts and be honest with yourself and others its easier to see through the fog (clear). Have you noticed how counselors sometimes seem non-sympathetic, thats because they sometimes have to tell a person something they don't want to hear and when we don't like what we hear sometimes we have a tendancy to think this.<p>This is why I like Dr. Harley's approach to Marriage/Relationship counseling bettter then the traditional type because he works on building Love in the M/R were the traditional is to address the problem area and mediate a method towards problem solving. He talks about thiis throughout his basics and the differences in his methods. This is one reason why he is more personable (nice) instead of direct and to the point. I feel his methods are much better and teach people to build Longlasting & Loving marriages. People learn methods and the right way to care for each others feelings more then the traditional approach, in which I'm accustom to.
Dr. Harleys statement:The difference between my approach to saving marriages, and the
approach of most other therapists, is that I focus on building
romantic love (being "in love") between spouses, rather than
simply focusing on conflict resolution. As it turns out, I also
address conflict resolution, but I do it in a way that builds
love between spouses.<p>Since most marital therapists fail to address the romantic love
issue when they try to help couples, their approach to conflict
resolution usually fails to build love, and as a result, the
couples divorce, even after "resolving" some of their conflicts.<p>I posted this earlier but thought it was appropiate for this subject & about change:<p>Dr Harley states:
In this study, newlyweds who divorced within 6 years were
compared with those who remained married during those years.
It was found that the divorced couples tended not to respond
to each other's complaints as quickly as those who remained
married. These divorced couples ignored each other's complaints
until they became intensely negative. Those who remained married,
on the other hand, went to work addressing each other's
complaints soon after they were mentioned, not giving the
complaint a chance to build up.<p>My experience with couples agrees with the results of this study.
In successful marriages, spouses expect to change to accommodate
each other's needs, so when a spouse registers a complaint, it's
a signal for action. In failed marriages, on the other hand,
spouses expect to be accepted as they are, without change. A
complaint is interpreted as an unwillingness to love
unconditionally, a failure of the complaining spouse. So instead
of adjusting to the complaint, the defense is offered, "if you
really loved me, you would not try to change me. You would let
me continue to do whatever it is I'm doing."<p>
In successful marriages, spouses expect to change to accommodate each other's needs, so when a spouse registers a complaint, it's a signal for action. In failed marriages, on the other hand, spouses expect to be accepted as they are, without change.So instead of adjusting to the complaint, the defense is offered, "IF YOU REALLY LOVED ME, YOU WOULD NOT TRY TO CHANGE ME. YOU WOULD LET ME CONTINUE TO DO WHATEVER IT IS I'M DOING." <p>WOW, Can I relate to this!<p>Guess What? I Got an Email from my exGF the other day (which I knew was just out of anger) in which stated she will never change! I guess she knows more then Dr. Harley now too. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] Tom

TOM,<p> Thank you for your prayers and your kind words. I need all the help I can get...<p> You are so right about what you wrote in your last post... I try not to bring out the negative things in other people, but I just gotta tell about my H... I have come to the point of resenting him so much that I even hate to write the letter "H", which stands for husband. He always acted like no one had feelings except him. He always had to make all the decisions including the coat I would wear. He always said, he should make all the decisions, because he made the bigger pay check. YUK!! I can't believe I put up with it all these years. I didn't agree with him wanting to buy a new boat. Instead I wanted to fix up the unfinished basement in our new home. WELL, because I didn't want to go with him to look at it he picks me up off the couch by the back of my dress a pushes me out to his new truck and asks me why I hate him... This was long before the affair. You are so right. He didn't care about complaints or things that bothered other people. My family saw all of that in him, but I didn't. I couldn't understand why they didnt like him, but I see it now. I just lost respect and then started resenting him. And now I hope he leaves peacefully like we both agreed. A person can only take so much.. I could go on and on. I am so sorry for going on like this, I usually keep these kind of things to myself. I can certainly say that I am not in any kind of fog I want no part of him. All of what I have just written proves that you are right . It takes two to make a marriage. Mine is beyond repair. Don't get me wrong he is not all bad, he just has this need to be in control of everything. I think my time of "obeying" him is over. Sorry again, you really hit a sore spot. I don't even discuss things with family or friend

I accidentally hit the wrong key, but as I said, I usually keep things to myself.<p> Tom I hope if you have feelings for your x girl friend you two can work things out. As you always post "Life is too short". Hopefully the break up between you two will make you both want to work on the relationship and when you do get back together it will be better than ever.<p> I hope Estes is ok. I haven't heard from her in awhile. I miss her input. I hope her family is doing alright. <p> And Tom I appreciate you being honest and forward in your post. I believe that approach helps people a lot. Who (whothehellisshe) made a statement that really opened my eyes. It went something like "if he is unwilling to give up a unhappy marriage for you then he must not think a whole lot of you" It made a difference in how I felt.<p> I wish you and your girlfriend the best.

Hi Spiro,<p>I'm really sorry about your experiences. May I ask you a question? Why is it that you never discussed your situation with anyone? It sounds very close to abuse to me.<p>It must have been awful to live with this all those years all by yourself! I couldn't get by without having confidants, my sister, a few close friends. Just wondered what kept you from sharing your burden. Forgive me if this is prying.<p>Concerned for you, Estes

Just wanted to add to this discussion a link to a book that I've recently read and is about this very topic....<p>Moral Earthquakes & Secret Faults<p>I believe 100% in my heart that my H's addition to internet porn and his "secret faults" are what set of the "earthquake" of his affair, and ultimately the end of our marriage.<p>Aloha,
Ms.O

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Spiro:
<strong>TOM,<p> Thank you for your prayers and your kind words. I need all the help I can get...<p> You are so right about what you wrote in your last post... I try not to bring out the negative things in other people, but I just gotta tell about my H... I have come to the point of resenting him so much that I even hate to write the letter "H", which stands for husband. He always acted like no one had feelings except him. He always had to make all the decisions including the coat I would wear. He always said, he should make all the decisions, because he made the bigger pay check. YUK!! I can't believe I put up with it all these years. I didn't agree with him wanting to buy a new boat. Instead I wanted to fix up the unfinished basement in our new home. WELL, because I didn't want to go with him to look at it he picks me up off the couch by the back of my dress a pushes me out to his new truck and asks me why I hate him... This was long before the affair. You are so right. He didn't care about complaints or things that bothered other people. My family saw all of that in him, but I didn't. I couldn't understand why they didnt like him, but I see it now. I just lost respect and then started resenting him. And now I hope he leaves peacefully like we both agreed. A person can only take so much.. I could go on and on. I am so sorry for going on like this, I usually keep these kind of things to myself. I can certainly say that I am not in any kind of fog I want no part of him. All of what I have just written proves that you are right . It takes two to make a marriage. Mine is beyond repair. Don't get me wrong he is not all bad, he just has this need to be in control of everything. I think my time of "obeying" him is over. Sorry again, you really hit a sore spot. I don't even discuss things with family or friend</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Dear Spiro,
Oh my I'm soooo sorry, I did not not your situation was like that. You should have told me! I'm sorry I didn't answer you earlier but I just got home, earlier I was on the "musicians spouse" thread & then I went to a local restraunt here for dinner and to play some trivia (in which I'm terrible at) [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img]
Wow spiro, In your situation you need to talk with someone because when you are being abused and hold it in that can be very destructive for you. It almost sounds like your in a Nazi prison camp! Noone deserves that treatment, who does he think your are his dog? People treat their dog better then that [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] You are a very nice person & I can now understand better why and how your feeling. My dad always raised us to respect a Lady & YOU never get physical! Geeks who can't beat up men or are afraid have to beat up women!<p>I noticed you used the word hate & that you hate him, I can understand why & how you have that feeling. I try not to hate anyone and sometimes its hard, but when you have hate in your body it takes up space that can be for good, it can consume you if you let it. I dont know if I can explain this properly, let me try. When someone hurts you a normal response is hurt then anger and in your situation it leads to resentment. So, I would not let him have you be a person that can hate, be a better person then him and look at him as a Loser. He probably was raised that way or in a bad environment so you cant hate him for it, but that also doesn't excuse his actions. One thing that is apparent is, you don't deserve that, noone does. In church you can hear this alot as (in my own words) the priest talks of love, when people hurt you and destroy you don't hate them, Love them. It didn't make sense to me at first but its the same when Dr. Harley speaks about how to deal with a cheating spouse. When your nice even when they are ugly to you, they will eventually feel bad (unless they are a PLAYER) because later on they will remember you as being nice even though they were ugly, but you will always remember them as being ugly. I try to look at it like this and I'm working on it, when a person does this to me I try to have an attitude like "Shake your head at them and think ,Loser" and walk away. The little I tried it so far works and I feel much better, instead of being consumed with hate because Life is Too Short!<p>You deserve much better and it takes alot for someone who acts the way he is acting to really change. It doesn't sound like he has it in his character to change.<p>Sincerely, Tom<p>[ October 26, 2001: Message edited by: Tomstocks ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Spiro:
<strong>I accidentally hit the wrong key, but as I said, I usually keep things to myself.<p> Tom I hope if you have feelings for your x girl friend you two can work things out. As you always post "Life is too short". Hopefully the break up between you two will make you both want to work on the relationship and when you do get back together it will be better than ever.<p> I hope Estes is ok. I haven't heard from her in awhile. I miss her input. I hope her family is doing alright. <p> And Tom I appreciate you being honest and forward in your post. I believe that approach helps people a lot. Who (whothehellisshe) made a statement that really opened my eyes. It went something like "if he is unwilling to give up a unhappy marriage for you then he must not think a whole lot of you" It made a difference in how I felt.<p> I wish you and your girlfriend the best.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Spiro,
I appreciate your concern in this matter but I understand the situation too well. I don't want to get into it so I will just say: After looking at it objectively, it wasn't our relationship but rather individual lifestyles that got in the way. Talk is cheap as one can say they want this or they want that in life, but ones actions and how they live their life and what they are doing shows their true colors (what they really want). Some are confused and don't even know what they want and just because they "DO BELIEVE" themself that they want it, they dont know how to act in order to get it. example: If you say you want to be a doctor. Instead of going to college for 8 years & get your degree, you spend you time in the bars and do drugs and never goto college how will you ever become a doctor. You won't!
Everything is getting much better. In looking back, I can honestly say I should have known better. When you fall in Love and it feels so right you just want it to work so bad, you give it many chances sometimes too many. You can't fall in Love with someones potential. Enough of this though [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] thanks again, Tom