<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Estes49:
<strong>Hello, belldandy,<p>By weak boundaries do you mean being easily swayed by other people? Not having very strong opinions or convictions? Or may be an example of a conflict avoider personality? <p>I can envision a situation in which a strong-willed, or manipulative person could put enough pressure on a weak-willed person or a conflict avoider to persuade him to do something that he knows is wrong. I can see that personality type as having a terrible time withdrawing from an OP.<p>However, this does not excuse that person from his responsibility in the situation. Counseling would probably be very helpful in helping this type of person understand himself better.<p>I will have to go back and catch up with your situation. I'll be back later.<p>Estes</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Hi Estes,
You would certainly make a good counselor. I can tell you learned a lot from your daughter and the kids you work with...<p> Did you ever think about a child who never felt loved or wanted by his/her parents? If a child feels unloved by the parents can you imagine that child trying to believe in someone they have never seen or felt loving them? Makes you wonder, doesn't it?<p> I feel close enough to my family, but they live so far away.<p> I have learned so much from these boards in such a short time. I hope the Harley's know how much they have helped people by allowing them to be here.

Estes49,<p>I mean "boundaries" in that one doesn't fully assess the situation and goes ahead with it anyway. To me, a teenager who smokes pot because of peer pressure and simply because it was "available" without giving thought to the consequences would be an example of weak boundaries. Someone who is unable to say no to both other people - and to their own desires/wishes. Conflict avoidance certainly comes into play. <p>I think that many times, people who get involved in EMRs aren't out to do something evil or malicious, even though the act itself certainly is, when considered in an objective context. <p>For example, I have been "tempted" many times by other men and married men. What made me say no, whereas another MW in a bad marriage might have said yes? I have built very strong boundaries - in fact, went into counseling to develop them (believe me, I used to be a doormat for *everyone*). Parents set boundaries for their children ... but how many of them teach their children to set their own boundaries, so that when they become an adult they are functional human beings?<p>Spiro - thanks for the clarification. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] I wish I had better words, better advice, to give you about the OM (MM?) but ... alas, I don't. I think that it's something that one would only completely understand if one had been in that situation. Telling you to forget about him isn't helpful ... advising you to pray might be more helpful, but still, it doesn't alieve your entire situation. I'm searching my mind to come up with clever "how to get out of this situation" advice, and I simply cannot find any. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] Just hang in there and trust in God. And remember, you have to help God help *you.* He will pull you up ... but first, you must extend your hand to Him.<p>blessings to all,<p>belld

Hello all,<p>I think the boundaries we are talking about are plain old self-control. <p>I don't know what specifically instills self-control. I'm sure parental example is one important factor. Religious training is probably a second. The person's inherent character may be a third. Selfishness vs self-sacrifice has to come in somewhere.<p>All this takes us back to the title of this thread, Character and Morals. Some people are determined to do what is right inspite of temptations. In reality very few of us can resist all temptation all of the time. If we stumble, we pick ourselves up and do better next time, hopefully. If a person sees no value in doing what is right, that is hard to deal with.<p>_____________
{{{I think that many times, people who get involved in EMRs aren't out to do something evil or malicious, even though the act itself certainly is, when considered in an objective context.}}} belldandy
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I hear what you are saying here, belldandy, but I go back to something I posted on another thread.<p>""Yes, I fully believe that the initial attraction is unplanned. No one faults WS or OP for feelings.<p>However, the actions the WS took WERE patentedly planned and deliberate ......<p>Fortunately, some WS do PLAN to do the right thing, and if both spouses recommit, there is hope for the marriage. <p>But, please!!! None of this "unplanned", "We didn't mean for it to happen." stuff. WS DO plan and they DO mean for it to happen, or it would not have happened. Nobody made them do it. It was their choice.""
______________<p>Once the initial attraction has occurred, if the participants continue unrepentent, and they do not acknowledge that what they are doing is evil and that their actions are malicious (Betrayal IS malicious by definition.), then they have a real character problem and are not good candidates for sound committed relationships. <p>I think I would be scared to death to try to find a new partner these days. How do you know who to trust? How do you know someone's character? It seems like so many here have discovered their partner's true character too late. I think that I would have to stick with my animals -major animal-lover here, dogs, cats, parrots. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Good evening, Estes

Know whatcha mean, Estes. My kiddens have more integrity and character in their little dewclaws than most human beings have in their entire bodies. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Lack of boundaries is manifested by a lack of self-control, certainly. But to me, lack of boundary setting also, to me, implies a certain mindset - that an individual really hasn't sat down and decided what they will or will not accept in their lives in terms of their interactions with other people. Some BS have very poor boundaries as well - certainly it is healthier to walk away from a marriage where a serial cheater is involved and there is no hope for change. But some people stay anyway.<p>MelissaM

Very true, belldandy,<p>I know that I think about my actions and people's reactions all the time*, but a lot of people do not. Their mindset simply does not include pondering the implications of their actions or specifically what they will tolerate from others. Don't know why.<p>*Not that I'm special or anything. I don't mean that. Rather, as a teacher, you must consider the effect your actions have on others (i.e., the kids, parents) if you are to have a good relationship with them. You also have to decide in advance what behavior you will tolerate and what is out-of-bounds. Another thing to consider is, once you set boundaries, you have to lovingly maintain them.<p>Estes

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Estes49:
<strong>Hello all,<p>I think the boundaries we are talking about are plain old self-control. <p>I don't know what specifically instills self-control. I'm sure parental example is one important factor. Religious training is probably a second. The person's inherent character may be a third. Selfishness vs self-sacrifice has to come in somewhere.<p>All this takes us back to the title of this thread, Character and Morals. Some people are determined to do what is right inspite of temptations. In reality very few of us can resist all temptation all of the time. If we stumble, we pick ourselves up and do better next time, hopefully. If a person sees no value in doing what is right, that is hard to deal with.<p>_____________
{{{I think that many times, people who get involved in EMRs aren't out to do something evil or malicious, even though the act itself certainly is, when considered in an objective context.}}} belldandy
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I hear what you are saying here, belldandy, but I go back to something I posted on another thread.<p>""Yes, I fully believe that the initial attraction is unplanned. No one faults WS or OP for feelings.<p>However, the actions the WS took WERE patentedly planned and deliberate ......<p>Fortunately, some WS do PLAN to do the right thing, and if both spouses recommit, there is hope for the marriage. <p>But, please!!! None of this "unplanned", "We didn't mean for it to happen." stuff. WS DO plan and they DO mean for it to happen, or it would not have happened. Nobody made them do it. It was their choice.""
______________<p>Once the initial attraction has occurred, if the participants continue unrepentent, and they do not acknowledge that what they are doing is evil and that their actions are malicious (Betrayal IS malicious by definition.), then they have a real character problem and are not good candidates for sound committed relationships. <p>I think I would be scared to death to try to find a new partner these days. How do you know who to trust? How do you know someone's character? It seems like so many here have discovered their partner's true character too late. I think that I would have to stick with my animals -major animal-lover here, dogs, cats, parrots. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Good evening, Estes</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Dear Estes,
Hi and how are you tonight? Yes it is a difficult decision (for some people), but like everyhtiing else in life its all about "checks and balances", "give and take", "debit and credit" & "good and evil". People who get bored with a stable (good life) nice environment need that excitement in their life! Did you ever hear the old saying "The Devil made me do it"? Like Al Pacino who played the devil in a movie called "The Devils Advocate" about a Law firm with Keanu Reeves, he told Keanu Reeves that humans love temptation as it is "The Bliss", your first kiss, your first time having sex with a person and when you first walk in a room at a crowded party as that adrenalin rush you get.<p>Well yes I do agree that it alll comes down to a person's Character & Morals and that's why I started this thread so we might get a better understanding of how to identity these people and understand what makes them tick.<p>It does come down to decisions and we must think of all the other people we can affect with the decisions that we make in life. I feel if we apply this along with other "careing
techniques" it is the first step in doing the right thing, sort of speak.<p>I have to go now but I will get into this tomorrow more as its very important! Good night all! Tom

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Tomstocks:
<strong>Well yes I do agree that it alll comes down to a person's Character & Morals and that's why I started this thread so we might get a better understanding of how to identity these people and understand what makes them tick.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I'm not sure how you could identify someone with with better character and higher morals as opposed to someone who was just the opposite. This is where we get into the whole nurture or nature question. How much of who a person is is brought about by their upbringing and their community, and how much of it is innate? What was responsible for that monster Jeffrey Dahmer? By all accounts, his parents were decent upstanding people who did everything they could to make sure that he grew up with the right values.<p>Unfortunately, things like character and morals are not easily quantifiable in the scientific world. They certainly aren't quantifiable in the real world, either. I had no idea what my H's character and morals were *really* like until we got married and he "dropped the act."<p>belld

Hello Belldandy,<p>When you talk about how much is inate and how much is from our society, you must realize the stages of life and during those stages what a child's learning curve is and the social impact. Two great magazines that cover this are called "Parenting" & "Child". They go through the different stages we go through and the age we are when we are in each stage. I remember from school that we get 80% of our personality programming as people by the age of 5. Pertainiing to your statement regarding what is from society; I feel it's very important to monitor WHO your children friend with as that can/but not always have just a big of impact on their future behavior or lifestyle. You can be the best parent teaching your children right from wrong and exposing them to the good in life but if they end up with the wrong group they can take the wrong path and do things you never expected. This is why the so called teenage years is so important (12 to 18) as they get more freedom and wonder further from home, they are exposed to more, influenced by peers and the values we instill in them as children will be tested. It becomes more apparent that for this reason it is very important to be involved with them as much as possible, to be there for them and to let them know they can talk with you about ANYTHING. If they are afraid to come to you for advice or with a problem then how can we help them make the right choice? So I think good character starts from young as our beliefe system is built, so if we grow up believing it is ok to Lie, steal or cheat we will condon this behavior and probably act this way as adults and the opposite will happen if we think it's wrong to do these things. <p>There are ways to identify someones character/moral makeup and the way you go about this is by looking at their beliefe system and what their values are. Now this can take some time as in the beginning everyone is on their best behavior. But I find that concentrating on a person's characteristics rather then personality traits helps to paint a better picture. Example: You meet someone and they tell you they want to get married, want a family and like children, but their behavior is the opposite. In other words if their actions are not in correlation with their words then they are probably a Liar. We always find out about people with little or no character/morals as the dirty laundry always comes out in the wash. Its just a matter of time.

Belldandy,<p>I can speak from experience on this and give you an example because I'm going through it right now. A good example of someone who you are talking about is what I call a PLAYER as they will look you right in the eye and LIE to you! Ask them if they still have contact with the OM, they say no and then listen to their phone messages and they still get calls from him. Discuss it with them and they get defensive and try to Lie their way through it. Then they will turn it around and try to make you look bad for checking up on them, hey its cheaper then paying for a private investigator. Then when they can't get away with it they just give up and go onto the next person. The point is people like this never change as they dont even think they are doing anything wrong because they have low character and very little morals. <p>Look back at the posts of my Xgf (tmsgirl) and you can see it in her attitude as she thought she didn't cheat and Spiro really enlightened all of us with the statement she made to her. I almost fell off my seat when I read Spiro 's post because it's exactly what I used to tell my Xgf. We try and try, but like I stated many posts earlier that "one can't fall in Love with someone's POTENTIAL you must look at their actions" and the answer will be right there.<p>These poeple make the choice to live their life in LIES & DECIET and they don't care who they hurt in the process! Alot of them play people to TRY to get ahead in life, sometimes they sleep with the boss, or play on other people's weak points to use them for their own benefit. You know how a chameleon changes it's colors well they change to fit in any situation, but ask them about this and they will just tell you that they are versatile, LOL. I need to go for something to eat, see you guys later. Tom

Tom,<p>People who "play it down" when they do something hurtful are curious creatures. I don't think I will ever understand that mindset, and I'm not sure I even want to! But they still pique my curiosity. I'd be interested in reading the posts between Spiro and your ex. I'm not too familiar with the search functions, though. Can you post a link, please? <p>Thanks & have a happy Halloween,<p>belld

Hello everyone,<p>belld, I'm butting in here - so you can do your homework before Tom's back on [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] . Go to page 5 in this thread. You can click on the page numbers at the top or bottom of each page. Tom's X is tmsgirl.<p>Tom, by player are you meaning a manipulator? Dumb me. I was thinking you meant a party-person.
[img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] So we're talking about someone who is so totally self-centered that he uses people for his own purposes with no regard for the other person. I think I've got it now. If so, I agree that there is no changing an adult who has this mindset. My DIL is a manipulator. I think a lot of this is due to how she was raised by a mother who expected special treatment from her daughters. DIL grew up behaving in particular ways to get actions of approval from her mother . Now she behaves in certain ways to get others to say and do things the things she wants.
S fell for it for a long time. I just listen to her rationalizations and do what I want. No offense to the guys, but interestingly enough, the women in the family saw through her right away. The men did not see what she was doing.<p>Spiro, how are you? How did you solve your dilemma about talking with OM?<p>Happy Halloween, Estes

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Hey, Tom,<p>How are you?<p>I'm still here, lurking. Been thinking about starting a thread.<p>I've read so many people's experiences struggling to maintain their dignity during the emotional onslaught of post d-day trauma and continued contact between WS and OP. (pleading, begging, tolerating truly degrading treatment, wanting to give up on life) Maybe it would be helpful to know what it was or how it happend that BSs were able to convince themselves that they did have real value, that they really would be OK, that they were strong enough to make it through all this and not allow themselves to be broken by their WS's disrespectful treatment.<p>What do you think?<p>Have you been reading Katie Scarlett's posts?<p>Possibly an interesting values discussion here. How did we develop our personal value system? How do our value systems affect our choices in life, esp. relationships? Can value systems be characterized as right or wrong? Good or bad?
Are there standards for judging a value system?
Are values relative? Are there universal "good" values? What is the relationship among character, morals, and values?<p>Food for thought.<p>Estes

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Dear ESTES, <p>Its very good to hear from you. Ive been very busy lately and not on MB. I have alot of work and personal things I've been working on (making it happen) sort of speaking . But I will look into what you said and post back after I look at scarlet's posts. How is everything with your son and the DIL? I hope well! How are you doing? Everything on my end is getting much better as far as my Love life, I've seen the light and dont feel angry towards tmsgirl anymore and that s when you know its better. I understand her and know that the things I was afraid of when we first met ended up being the demise of our relationship. But I can say she (in her own way) is a nice person. But thats water under the bridge. I will talkk to you soon. Tom
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Estes49:
<strong>Hey, Tom,<p>How are you?<p>I'm still here, lurking. Been thinking about starting a thread.<p>I've read so many people's experiences struggling to maintain their dignity during the emotional onslaught of post d-day trauma and continued contact between WS and OP. (pleading, begging, tolerating truly degrading treatment, wanting to give up on life) Maybe it would be helpful to know what it was or how it happend that BSs were able to convince themselves that they did have real value, that they really would be OK, that they were strong enough to make it through all this and not allow themselves to be broken by their WS's disrespectful treatment.<p>What do you think?<p>Have you been reading Katie Scarlett's posts?<p>Possibly an interesting values discussion here. How did we develop our personal value system? How do our value systems affect our choices in life, esp. relationships? Can value systems be characterized as right or wrong? Good or bad?
Are there standards for judging a value system?
Are values relative? Are there universal "good" values? What is the relationship among character, morals, and values?<p>Food for thought.<p>Estes</strong><hr></blockquote>