Katie Scarlett, <p>I am confused...I am following your posts all over the boards...<p>For what are you looking on these boards?<p>You aren't married...reading your posts, it sounds as if you have never been married...you are a single mom and have been an OW for ten years without regret...<p>What brought you here? Most here are in marriages that have been traumatized by an affair...some are WSs, both repentant and unrepentant...most are BSs searching for answers and many are in deep pain as I was 6 months ago...<p>I don't want to chase you away...but I don't understand your need to post here at MarriageBuilders.<p>I feel as though you are seeking something...

Your question is a valid one. I answered this question before over on the thread about long term affairs.<p>Here's your answer:<p><strong>Estes,
You'll get no argument from me on anything that you have said. I'm here to understand. I lurked here for a while before I ever begin to post because frankly i'm fascinated!
That probably sounds strange to you, but it's true. I am a small town girl who moved to Manhattan with nothing 10 years ago. I was FULL of unbridaled ambition and made it my business to get who and whatever I wanted-reguardless. And I have.<p>My college roommate dreamed of being somebody's wife and having a family. I used to think that she was INSANE! I wanted a fancy apartment, world travel, nice things, etc.<p>In that process, I found a man that I wanted and I had him. There were times that it mattered to me that he was married and there were times that it didn't.<p>This year I turned 31 and began to take stock of the kind of life I have lead. I am the single mother of a 3.5 year old little boy and i've had to ask myself what I kind of life I was giving him. As a child I was given everything I could have ever wanted materially, but had busy, professional, absentee parents. I want to be a real mom for my boy. I want to give him a real home with real meaningful values. Something that I still seek for myself.<p>I am retiring in the Spring and will be a stay-at-home mom. I'm selling my apartment in the city and buying a home in the surburbs. It'll be a new, strange and exciting life for me.<p>So, historically, I have been a self seeking, unrepentant OW. Now I seek to be something more. It is, as i'm sure you already know, a process. [Hell, i'm a NYer. Just being nice on a regular basis is a process. ]<p>Anyway, there are certain values that you guys just assume that everyone has. Like "don't sleep with someone's husband." I never learned that. Or at least I never saw the value in it. In my mind, if I wanted it, then it's my job to go after it. And if the guy is weak, all the better. My values have served me VERY well in business. But i'm finding there's not a lot of use from them as a parent. Nobody appreciates cut-throat on the playground.<p>So, i'm here as student, listener, observer. And maybe, someday, i'll make somebody a 1/2 way descent wife. [altough truthfully I still stuggle with trying to understand why anybody would want to be that. Espically considering you can get all of the perks without the resposibility-if you play your card right.]<p>Still learning,
Katie Scarlett <p></strong>

Oh, PLUS, to my thinking, my actions had few if any consequences. I never saw any harm that i'd caused. There was some harm to me, but nothing big. <p>So it's a REAL eye opener to read the reaction of BS's.

Thanks...I had read that before on the Long Term Affair post...<p>I guess some of my wounds are still too fresh...<p>I also want to respond to another of your replies to me about Jesus being an archetype...<p>I too had that kind of feeling about being a Christian...I was more of a 'cultural' Christian than a Biblical Christian...<p>...but, I envied those who could be so outward in their faith and through the years I yearned to be deeper in my relationship with God...I continually felt nudged there...but would never truly give up 'my' control over me or my world...<p>What have I learned? The answers are there...and prayers get answered...when you truly believe and give your life to God.<p>So it sounds as if you're in a 'quest' to find out what is life's purpose? how to best raise your son?<p>You really sound a lot like I could have sounded had I taken a different path...

I definately believe in God and am still a spiritual seeker. Organized religion holds little appeal for me, but spirituality is a beautiful thing.

I had little use for 'organized' religion once as well...<p>Sometimes you have to look until you find the one that 'fits' you best...for example...I have been churched in the Methodist, Luthran, Catholic, Congregational and Baptist churches...<p>One does truly fit 'me' best...but I am active in another due to other circumstances...<p>But...when you study scripture, there are definite 'rules' set down to be followed...ones that when you simply have faith and spirituality, you can 'ignore' as being a part of organized religion...<p>Also, when you view Jesus as an archetype and the Bible as a series of faith stories...again, YOU are doing the controlling...you are in charge of what you will believe and how far you will go with being a Christian.<p>YOU are in charge, not God.

Huh!?<p>Honestly, I have been so wounded by my experiences with Christ based religion that I am EXTREMELY hesitant to even consider them.<p>There are people that I share a spiritual path with. Truely in many respects I have gone my own way. I do meditate though. That is what lead me to cut all major ties with my MM.

Trying,
i'm going home for the night, but would be interested in continuing this discussion with you.<p>We can speak privately at<p>katiescar@hotmail.com

Hello, Katie,<p>I thought that I would move over here from GeezLouise's thread, especially when I saw that TryingAgain had brought up the topic of faith and spirituality. I was going to do that in my next post to you. Incidentally, I also find MB and this forum fascinating and extremely helpful. What powerful dynamics are evident here! I keep thinking, "Wow, I wish everybody out there knew about the thinking that goes on here." BTW, I am here because my daughter-in-law is WS. I found MB while working through my own anguish over what she had done to my son and my grandson and, therefore, both directly and indirectly to me.<p>First, some thoughts on what you said: "So, i'm here as student, listener, observer. And maybe, someday, i'll make somebody a 1/2 way descent wife. [altough truthfully I still stuggle with trying to understand why anybody would want to be that.]"<p>I find it interesting that you listen so readily to the opinions of others in light of your strong opinions. Your quote above makes me feel, like TryingAgain, that you may be seeking something. I say, quite sincerely, that if so, I hope you find it.<p>What I see developing here is a discussion of different value systems, how we each came to have our particular value system, and how our value system colors how we interact in the world.<p>May I ask why you are entertaining thoughts of possibly becoming a wife someday while saying at the same time that you are trying to understand why anyone would want to be one? I mean, unless you feel that something is missing, why even consider marrying? <p>And:
"Espically considering you can get all of the perks without the resposibility-if you play your card right."<p>My opinion: It is impossible to experience the one perk that is the essence of being married, without being married. It can't be done. By definition, one cannot begin to have the benefits of being married without being married. Kind of goes in circles, doesn't it. Let me try again. Marriage is not sex, not having fun, not raising kids (although these are wonderful parts of the package). Marriage is a deep spiritual commitment, a connection of the spirits of one man and one woman to form a single unit that sets that union apart from all others. It is the formal commitment before the whole world that seals the bond. So you will never have the most important perk of marriage without being married. Does this make any sense? Marriage is not a prison, Katie. By commiting, you are freed. Sound strange? An oxymoron? By commiting, you have freedom to be content and safe with someone who has likewise commited to this spiritual union with you. {We are talking here about seriously commited people, people with a PLAN to exclusively meet each other's primary emotional needs. See Harley's HIS NEEDS, HER NEEDS. Have you read it?}<p>This agreement by a married couple to exclusively (i.e., forsaking all others) meet each other's ENs is why an affair is such a devasting betrayal of the BS by the WS. This is why the folks here are experiencing such anguish. This is what your OM did to his W by ignoring his vows, and this is why your involvement with him was wrong. You were a factor in his spiritual betrayal of his W. Your acceptance of his attention in order to satisfy your needs was the means by which he betrayed the spiritual pact he made with his wife. His actions have wounded her to the core. There is no way she does not care. And because he is a weak man, he did not have the strength of character to do the right thing. So what you have chosen to do, in actual fact, has had serious consequences - on the spiritual level.

So what if a marriage is not working? Having justifiable reasons to be unhappy in one's marriage is not an excuse to betray one's marriage vows. If after a serious effort to fix it and nothing is working, the partners dissolve the marital agreement honorably and move on. THEN is the time to look for someone to fill the unmet ENs. <p>Maybe this seems hopelessly naive and old-fashioned. Maybe is seems to be a foolish idea to place honor and responsibility above self-indulgence. But this is what marriage is about. This is why non-marital relationships almost never provide the level of satisfaction that a healthy marriage does. Maybe this is why people here at MB are so committed to building healthy marriages.<p>Sorry so long. I really feel rather passionately about this. Can you tell? [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] Yes, people can be happy and successful and remain single. But a good marriage enriches one's life more than any corporate success ever could. <p>Please keep posting.<p>Estes<p>[ November 16, 2001: Message edited by: Estes49 ]</p>

Estes,
I thank you for your post. Frankly I would have preferred to make this response in a PM because it may be hurtful to some. <p>I wrote a long post, but is was eaten by my computer. I also said a lot over on the post called &#8220;Katie&#8230;simply put.&#8221; I think it says a lot of what I want to say here.<p>I welcome opposing view points. There is no question that I have strong opinions. But I am not arrogant enough to think that I am always right. People who never want to hear the other side are scary to me. There in no glory in ignorance. And for a very long time I allowed myself to be ignorant to W-hood and all things W related. They didn&#8217;t suit selfish my needs. Not knowing anything about W&#8217;s made it easy to make short sighted decisions that fueled my selfish behavior. [ie. She must be a witch, otherwise why is he at my house&#8230;] That one kept me with him and feeling sorry for him for YEARS!<p>It was only when I learned more about her that I had to pause. She was just like me. I honestly thought of my self as being a great humanitarian being with this man. I was saving him from her. Granted I was getting my own selfish needs met as well, but look at how great I was. I made it easier for him to be married. I took his stress away so that he could go home to that bad woman. Poor him!<p>Then I learned more about her and I thought &#8220;my God, she&#8217; me.&#8221; She and I are so much alike that it&#8217;s SCARY! And if for no other reasons than selfish ones I began to let go.<p>It is true that a part of the reason that I was with this man was for my own selfish gain. But it is also true that I loved him. I met him before he ever met his wife. We were really, really close. He wanted to marry, but I was only 22 [he was 33]. I said no, and we seperated. He dated another woman but we stayed platonic friends. She got pregnant [on purpose, who knows] and he &#8220;did the right thing.&#8221; His parents have been married for 47 years and he strongly believes &#8220;you don&#8217;t leave your wife.&#8221;<p>
So we made a pact. He&#8217;d do what he needed to do at home. He&#8217;d care for financial needs of his wife and kid(s), but his heart belonged to me. He has been married to her for 7 or 8 years and he and I have rarely been out of touch in that time.<p>He has met my selfish needs, but in feeling defensive I fear that I have over stated that portion of our relationship. It is only now that I see that with me in his life his marriage never had a chance. Reading MB has helped me to understand that.<p>During the time that we have been together, I have had a child with another man and have been engaged 3-4 times. Our understanding has been that it really didn&#8217;t matter who else we were with. Or where we went. That our deep and abiding affection for one another would endure. And it has.<p>Now, I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s best that it endure. Truly I have taken what I wanted and left the rest for her. Have gotten angry and refused to speak to him and have had very loving times with him.<p>The title &#8220;Mrs.&#8221; Never meant anything to me. Paper, legal certifications and titles have never bound heart. They bind bodies and finances together. But true commitment is in the heart. And for a very long time I felt like my heart was with him [and his with me].<p>I may never understand the commitment of marriage. That is true. What some spouses don&#8217;t get though is that deep commitment is not limited to the institution of marriage.<p>I&#8217;m QUITE sure that I&#8217;ve pissed somebody off, but this is just one woman&#8217;s humble opinion.

Hi, Katie:<p>Read your post. I do hear what you are saying.<p>I would like to respond to what you said about commitment being in the heart, not on paper. Many MBs believe that commitment is in the head, also. People consciously make decisions based on actions that are the best for all concerned.<p>Please do not take what I say as being condescending to you, because I truly do not mean it that way. You have been involved in a very complex situation for years. I see from your posts that you are beginning to analyze what has happened during that time. <p>I feel sad for you all because your situation has created partial relationships for all of you. Your fulfillment is incomplete because you shared the OM's emotional energy with W and his child. He is not at peace because his emotional energy has been split for years; he didn't have you 100% and he doesn't have his family 100%. {I noticed that you realize that his marriage never had a chance.} W is not fulfilled for same reasons, plus she has had to deal with the public betrayal of her marriage by her H. OM's child never had unity between his parents to safely envelop him as he grew. Your child does not have two onsite parents to provide him with the devotion of both a mom and a dad. Somewhere out there is a man (your child's father)who has missed a day-in-day-out realtionship with a really neat kid. One day both children will know of the convoluted history of their parents' relationships. The kids may be the biggest losers. Maybe everyone is beginning to realize that years have passed and that the missed opportunities can never be recovered. This is what I see as sad, the missed opportunities. <p>You say:
""I may never understand the commitment of marriage. That is true. What some spouses don&#8217;t get though is that deep commitment is not limited to the institution of marriage.""<p>Maybe at issue here is the nature of the commitment. This kind of commitment between two unmarried people is not being challenged. *** It is a deep commitment between a MARRIED person and one to whom he/she is not married that is the issue.*** For reasons stated above and in other posts, I believe with every fiber of my being that this kind of commitment is immoral, unethical, and damaging to everyone involved.
Not a judgement on you, Katie, just my value system that I am expressing.<p>You and OM could have had years of deep commitment in a way that would have been a blessing to you and any children you may have had.
Sometimes, because of our particular value systems, we may miss opportunities that we do not appreciate until years later.<p>Best wishes in your introspective journey.<p>Estes<p>BTW, after having the computer eat several long posts before I sent them, I now copy what I have written after every paragraph. This has saved me a lot of frustration.

Katie,<p>I have long been curious as to the thoughts of single OW involved in long-term affairs with MM. Your response provides some insight on this.<p>If I'm understanding correctly, placing little to no value on the institution of marriage played a large part in your ability to continue this relationship. You stated that:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Paper, legal certifications and titles have never bound heart. They bind bodies and finances together. But true commitment is in the heart.<hr></blockquote><p>I agree 100% that commitment is in the heart. However, I did not get married simply to ensure that my body and money would forever be bound to him. We certainly could have simply remained committed without the benefit of a marriage certificate, but we chose to make a vow to one another. Our vows were not a frivolous legal proceeding to publicly record a transaction...they were a commitment to one another conducted in a ceremonial fashion to acknowledge our joining together as one.<p>I take my marriage vows very seriously (the perks and the responsibility)... obviously my H may have a different opinion. But perhaps, here lies the problem. Those who do not value marriage should not marry, but apparently many do. Many marry for the wrong reasons, only to find themselves miserable later. That, however, is for the spouses to work out between themselves.<p>However, when someone is single and does not see the value in marriage for themselves, it does not automatically follow that another's marriage should be disrespected.<p>You also said:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>What some spouses don&#8217;t get though is that deep commitment is not limited to the institution of marriage.<hr></blockquote><p>You could be referring to a number of things with this statement, but I'll assume that you are speaking from your own experience (long-term affair) With that in mind, it would be difficult for a betrayed spouse to deny that a distinct level of commitment exists in a long-term affair. But keep in mind also, a BS who discovers an affair has to deal with the fact that his/her spouse has betrayed them. That is first and foremost where the pain of infidelity strikes the betrayed.<p>To learn that the affair has been going on for years upon years drives the knife in deeper. The BS is certainly not concerned with acknowledging how deep his/her commitment is to the OP. The BS is dealing with their own personal pain, shock, anger, etc. <p>While the two in the affair have had time to enjoy and develop their relationship, the BS, upon discovery, has to now piece together a new "reality" since most everything that they "thought" was real is not. What you see on this board is the pain in that process. And that pain exists whether the couple stays together or divorces.<p>At some point during this process, how the MM/W feels about the OP is addressed. Also note that:<p>1)the MM/W is not always forthright (i.e. they lie!) about the extent of the relationship and the feelings involved.<p>2)the MM/W often, later, acknowledge that they were "fools" to have gotten involved and risked losing their spouse and family whom they love.<p>Ultimately, for couples that choose to recover after an affair, how deep his/her commitment to OP was is not at issue. What is at issue is the commitment to the marriage and subsequent efforts to recover are focused on rebuilding the marriage relationship and restoring the family unit.<p>Hope you find what you seek.<p>Enlightened

<p>[ December 07, 2001: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]</p>

Katie,<p> I feel for you. That is all I can say, really. Well, maybe not. But anything more would likely be viewed as mean.<p> I will say that it is time for you to grow up. Perhaps you have found a good place to learn how to do that. Marriage Builders......<p> I do hope you learn how to become a good wife for someone. But I pray you find something much more important. Jesus!<p> jd

I have to admit that I was scared to death to read what you guys' response to my post would be. I have to say that I am gratified no have not been flamed here.<p>There is so much that I want to respond to here, but i'm busy this morning. I will respond as the opportunity arises today. This dialog has been extremely helpful to me.<p>Enlightened,
You said "However, when someone is single and does not see the value in marriage for themselves, it does not automatically follow that another's marriage should be disrespected."<p>That is true. And in all honesty I never set out to ruin someone's marriage. I saw myself as a woman in love in an impossible situation. I felt that I was making the best choice that I could. In my mind everybody won! W got the security that she needed to raise her baby. I got to maintain a connection to the man that I loved and MM could keep everyone happy. Perfect right.<p>We'll maybe not.<p>For a LONG time though it was fine with me. And I thought things were fine with all of us. Things fell apart when he could no longer live 2 lives. The detials of which I will not bore you with here.<p>Suffice to say that everything that has happened has caused me to take a long hard look at what we were. It has also caused me to examine this mystery called marriage. Historically, to me, it was simply a contract. <p>I have known for a long time that perception is mirror. Whatever you believe you will find reflected in the world around you. I had PLENTY of proof that marriage was simply a contract. It was not until I began to change my perception of marriage that I could see it another way.<p>So now, here I stand open to receive other ideas beside the ones' that I have held dear for so long.<p>[ November 19, 2001: Message edited by: Katie Scarlett ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Estes49:
<strong>*** It is a deep commitment between a MARRIED person and one to whom he/she is not married that is the issue.*** For reasons stated above and in other posts, I believe with every fiber of my being that this kind of commitment is immoral, unethical, and damaging to everyone involved.
Not a judgement on you, Katie, just my value system that I am expressing.<p>You and OM could have had years of deep commitment in a way that would have been a blessing to you and any children you may have had.
Sometimes, because of our particular value systems, we may miss opportunities that we do not appreciate until years later.
</strong><hr></blockquote><p>This is precisely what I have come to understand.

Hi Katie,<p>You can learn to build the kinds of relationships that you want. Let me know if I can be of help.<p>Will you accept a cyber hug?<p>{{{Katie}}}<p>Estes

Estes,<p>Will you post your e-mail address. Or e-mail me at katiescar@hotmail.com.<p>Thanks

Katie Scarlett,<p>Infidelity affects all 3 parties involved in the triangle. I have yet to come across anyone who has had to lived through infidelity who has not been forever changed. Hopefully, the change is positive. I'm glad that you have chosen to take time to reflect.<p>You said:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>That is true. And in all honesty I never set out to ruin someone's marriage. I saw myself as a woman in love in an impossible situation. I felt that I was making the best choice that I could. In my mind everybody won! W got the security that she needed to raise her baby. I got to maintain a connection to the man that I loved and MM could keep everyone happy. Perfect right.<p>We'll maybe not.<p>For a LONG time though it was fine with me. And I thought things were fine with all of us. Things fell apart when he could no longer live 2 lives.
<hr></blockquote><p>Your MM's reason for choosing to marry his wife may have been what he (and perhaps you) considered the "honorable" thing to do, but unless you know for sure what her intentions were and what marital agreement they made, you cannot assume that this "arrangement" was the best choice for her. Granted he may have told you that you would forever have his "heart" but the fact of the matter is, he chose to marry his wife.<p>You and he may have considered his marriage simply a "contract", but she may (and mostly likely did) not. While marriages in "name only" do exist and are entered into solely for the purpose of practicality, I would venture to guess that in the vast majority, at least ONE spouse is making a sincere, long-term, "heartfelt" commitment. <p>I&#8217;m still a bit perplexed by your MM&#8217;s idea that marrying his wife because of the child yet at the same time promising his &#8220;heart&#8221; to you was honorable. It would be easier to understand his dismay if he married her and made a sincere effort to be a husband and father. But from your story, he sounds like he made dual promises&#8230;one to you and one to her. Did his marriage vows only address fatherhood? His marriage never stood a chance from the start and now at least 3 people are left to figure out &#8220;what happened?&#8221;<p>As Estes mentioned earlier, marriage is a spiritual union. Two coming together as one, bonded by a vow. With that vow comes joy and responsibility. This union is to be honored by those in it and around it. The marriage is to even take precendence over the children because the bond of the marriage ultimately affects the entire household and family unit. (How many spouses do you hear complain about the amount of time the mothers spend with the children vs. the husband...can throw a marriage, and subsequently the family, way out of sync)<p>In other words, marriage should not be entered into lightly. <p>Enlightened

Enlightened,
Thank you for your post. To be honest marriage was never a big deal to me. I never purposely sought out married men and generally turned them away [expect for this one of course].<p>At the same time I never saw marriage as "holy" necessarily. I saw/see real love and commitment as holy and marriage as the crucible where that could happen. Understanding that just because people marry, that in and of itself didn't make them or the institution special.<p>I am now at an age where my friends are beginning to marry and honestly there is a part of me that thinks "what's the big deal." Going to lots of weddings in combination with considering my past have caused me to take a second look.<p>It is true that I may forever view marriage the same way that I see it now. That it is simply a container in which to create great things. But at least now I am able to consider that there are those who see it another way.<p>God Bless