Did I get your attention? <p>I want to say that I am currently not anxious about our Pastor's potential motives with my DW!<p>Our Pastor came over last night & he had lots of good words of encouragement & spoke about he & my DW's meeting -- in so many words he was saying that she wants this to work -- It also was reinforcing her agenda a bit -- I need to trust. To trust in the Lord, will help me to Trust in DW.
I said that I realize that things I have asked for to help reinforce a trusting feeling IN ME, like being more open about her plans and ECT. go against her feelings that I am trying to control. No comments WERE MADE about that-
The Pastor spoke of when he was there with me in January & all the pain I felt. My DW was crying A BIT & I could tell she had some remorse in her attitude -- Something I had not seen in a long, LONG time.
He talked about praying together. Something I had brought up with DW on a couple occasions. She is now open to that idea & we did that this morning (instead of sex).
He spoke about praying for a stronger commitment to our Lord & that would create a stronger commitment to each other. He said it would be time for intimacy with our lord & also with us.
Over all, his words were very comforting & good!
After he left I managed to get a good LB in however! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img]
He said that my DW had TOLD HIM that she had been tempted & she said no to the person. This was presented as a testament, like a triumph she overcame. She later told me that he had asked the question & she answered &#8211; perhaps a break through or stepping stones for her to be more honest?<p>The Pastor went on the say that he has not told her this in private, but that let&#8217;s face it, she is an attractive women ( he&#8217;s not dumb about my sensitivities!) and that there are a lot of PREDATORS out there that are only interested in them selves & not the honor of a marriage. He lead up to the fact that she was a good salesperson & that she may need to consider a different job & that I needed to develop a better feeling of trust. That no matter where she worked or what she did, there was always going to be potential for temptations. He made an excellent presentaion & I was not offended & It made me feel good about some commitments my DW was kind of making that I had not heard before.<p>Now when I put it in writing I am not without some concerns & do not totally buy into this. For example, the idea that no matter what she did there is always going to be temptation, therefore I should just trust in her. In an extreme example for instance, given her history & sexual appetite, I don&#8217;t think it would give me much comfort if she became a stripper for example! Extreme example,I know! He mentioned the possibility of something she had considered before. That was a straight commission sales job, which would require overnight travel. <p>This immediately gave me images of her doing something she says she misses &#8211; going out dancing at the bars. And after a couple lonely nights, her sex drive I can imagine would be busting out. Believe me, her method of dance is very seductive & she throws that up in my face, like I&#8217;m too controlling if I suggest she tone it down, like this is a real threat to her liberties! Frankly, when she swivels her hips in a grinding, seductive motion that is one thing, but when she throws her arms up over her head while grinding the hips, maybe it&#8217;s just me, but it makes me feel very insecure that she&#8217;s trying to attract extra attention & a show for others enjoyment as well. ?? We were out with friends not long ago & her & I were dancing & when she put her arms up over her head, & I pulled them back down &#8211; she got pissed and stormed off. I am Mr. Prude & Mr. Controlling here I guess??<p>This turning down temptation thing got under my skin a little because I have asked her if she has been tempted & she would get defensive & say she did not want to have that conversation. I had also recently asked her if she ever thought about what to say if & when a guy came onto her & she said no & acted real indignant, like it was ridiculous to suggest a need to do such a thing.<p>After the Pastor left I could not resist asking her about this temptation thing. She said she hesitated to mention it to me because she figured I would get upset. I said no, this is what I talk about in being open & honest & being able to talk about this kind of thing. I said that I think is stupid to think that it won&#8217;t come up. I said that with the way she looks, it is almost like a certainty to come up & to suggest that it doesn&#8217;t really insults me! <p>She told me about this guy that approached her in the mall as she was leaving the bank & he laid on real heavy compliments, like she was beautiful & stood out in a crowd, Ect. She said that he said he noticed she was married & she replied, Yes, 31 years! She then told him &#8220;thanks for the compliment&#8221; & turned and walked away.
Now the context was that she was very firm & definite with her message & she said he did not follow her & that she told the people she worked with about the whole &#8211; like this was to give me comfort that she was not hiding this --(with them at least!).<p>I asked her if there was any other way she could have handled it -- Now perhaps I'm being picky here. She got very defensive & said she did not want to do this & that this made her want to "flea" -- She said that she is an adult & knows full well how to handle these situations.<p>She said she could have given the guy the finger and told him to Fxxx off. I said that of course is quite confrontational, but don&#8217;t you think you could have had a response somewhere between the two.<p>Now I&#8217;ll admit, in the back of my mind I am recalling what she told me about her first encounter with the tree guy. He was laying on very strong compliments & suggestions. She told him that she was married for 30 years (at the time). He used that as logic or as a reason to fool around; with lines like haven&#8217;t you ever wanted to live out some fantasies & don&#8217;t you get bored being with the same guy all that time?!
She said she told him that he should not be talking to a married women that way. He then continued with more advances and in her words, she melted to temptation. She said that she should have asked him to leave. Now in my mind her response to this new guy was not that much different with the exception that she walked away.<p>Now maybe I am dumb about this stuff, but to me, saying you are married as a means to discourage advancements is not real strong. I mean if the guy is this &#8216;PREDATOR&#8221; kind of guy, they know full well that the fact that she is married, in the end, has very little to do with all this!<p>I told her that I understand that she does not want to upset anyone & that she appreciates the attention & the compliments. This is why she dresses the way she does. She has made that a specific point. Now, I have not challenged her about the compliments and the looks from gals vs. guys, but I assume that gals are not going to lay on thick compliments & that the attention from Guys is a lot more meaningful. Do you think I should get that clarified?<p>I went on to say that in my opinion I don&#8217;t think it is a healthy attitude if you feel compelled that even when a guy has obviously over stepped some boundaries that you feel compelled to be nice to him?! That you don&#8217;t want to be too firm for fear of hurting his feelings?! I said if he is his &#8220;predator&#8221; kind of guy, that you in a sense gave him a positive reinforcement that you liked his compliments. Although the initial message was no, there was some evidence that if he was aggressive, that the response would detour his intentions, but that if he was really interested he would be back &#8211; the predator might be challenged with what I consider a mild rejection. I said that in my opinion, there is nothing wrong that particularly when the guy is a stranger, that you be really firm & make it explicatively clear that you are insulted & upset that he would make these comments and that there is absolutely no way! To thank him for the compliment & then walk away, I&#8217;M NOT SURE IS A STRONG MESSAGE OF DECLINATION?! I assume her demeanor was firm and he got the message, but my point with her was that what is wrong if we talk about alternative responses to advances. To be prepared for these, so that the next time you are not caught off guard and your response is perhaps better OR STRONGER TO ELIMINATE ANY & ALL DOUBT!<p>This morning I apologized for my attitude about the guys advances & that I was interested in helping her, not hurting her. We did have a joint prayer.<p>I UNDERSTAND THAT GUYS CAN BE AGGRESSIVE WITH THEIR ADVANCES, BUT I WONDER, IT SEEMS THE PASTOR&#8217;S PERCEPTION & MY DW IS THAT THESE THINGS ARE ALL RESULT OF THESE "PREDATORS," & THAT SHE HAS ABSOLUTELY NO CONTROL OR RESPONSIBILITY OVER THIS & THAT THERE IS NOTHING SHE COULD POSSIBLY DO TO MAKE SUCH ADVANCES LESS LIKELY?! OF COURSE YOU KNOW WHERE I AM GOING. OR, TO GIVE ME ANY REAL ASSURANCES BY THE WAY SHE DRESSES AND THE LIKE, AS AN EXAMPLE, THAT SHE IS NOT IN FACT INTERESTED IN CERTAIN ADVANCES & FLIRTATIOUS KIND OF ATTENTION. IT JUST SEEMS TO ME THAT SHE DOES NOT HAVE A STRONG TRACK RECORD WITH DECLINING SUCH ADVANCES, WHY PRESS THE ISSUE WITH THE SEXY LOOK?! JUST A THOUGHT ... I OF COURSE WILL NOT MAKE ANY DIRECT SUGGESTIONS AS SUCH!<p>I may be getting closer to this abstinence thing? [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] We were not intimate Monday Evening, Tuesday AM or Tuesday PM & Wednesday AM. (Our normal routine). This is where I say we were W/O for like three days, which is actually overstated. I was looking for size doubles A batteries. Her small toy was out of batteries & so she told me she got new batteries. In this conversation I ask her about her toy & she says she tried to help herself that (Wednesday, yesterday) morning (before her appointment with Pastor, which I am sure there was no correlation :eek [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] She said it did not really work for her --- dah, is that good or bad. When she mentioned this I told her that I was a little disappointed, that she seems to enjoy this with something rather impersonal, compared to me and that she seems to not be able to go very long without sexual gratification. A little bit later she tried to plead her case that lots of women have these. I said I can understand that, but do they have the kind of activity you have? I asked her if she has friends that would use this everyday as an example. She of course declined comments & she even deflected this by asking what I would say if our daughter had one of these. I told her I did not want to consider that -- this by the way was a friendly, light discussion!<p>When we were talking about the advances of other guys I told her that I hoped she understood that some of my anxieties is the fact that I know how important sex is to her & I wonder if I don&#8217;t perform for even a few times in our typical cycle (twice a day!), that this makes her even more receptive to the attention of other guys & then on top of that she does not call very often to let me know her plans. iT MAKES ME FEEL UNSURE AT TIMES. She said she&#8217;s been calling. I don&#8217;t think so! Perhaps she meant that she called once in last 5 &#8211;6 days, yes that would be more, bUt not my idea of real communication about plans and where abouts.
This morning she said I could have the double A battery for her toy. She also politely declined my mild offer to be intimate.
Have I now created a monster, where she is going to try & convince me that she is no longer that interested in sex, while at the same she has this ever increasing desire building up inside?!<p>An issue that the Pastor did not bring up was my sensitivities of my DW&#8217;s dress. My DW had mentioned to me that he asked if I still talk to her about her dress & she told HIM that I did not. It is interesting that before he arrived, she changed into a top that was A baggy, lose fitting sweat shirt kind of top.
I should mention that when the Pastor said we need to find ways to communicate on daily basis, our love for each other, that that would go to her side of the responsibility ledger, something she does not do. I don&#8217;t know if Pastor was thinking in those terms, that is something she needs to work on more than I. If the future is indicative of past, this part of the formula will not be processed by her! She is not nearly as tolerant of making changes herslf.<p>One last point. In our lively discussion I made references to policy of &#8220;Openness & Honesty&#8221; She took offense to the use of the word, &#8220;openness&#8221; &#8211; said it irritated her to hear that &#8211; like I was over using the term & it made her sick to hear it! Can you think of good substitute word?<p>At least we got some things out in the open didn&#8217;t we?<p>Love & Prayers!<p>HH

Well HH,<p>You want open and honest. You need to set the environment for it.<p>Don't LB when she finally opens up to you. No critical judgements of how she handles the situations.<p>Most spouses would simply be happy that she told him she was married for 31 years.<p>Also I think its unrealistic for you to expect her to be ANGRY or mean to someone who paid her a compliment. <p>I think your responses to her "how do you think you could have handled this differently?" was disprectful -- that is how I would talk to my children.

Lexxxy,
She responded in same way as rebellious child -- I guess I should expect that, huh<p>I guess I have too many of these little suspious things croping up to be totally trusting here.
As always, thanks for honest feedback!
I still appreciate your spunk!
Peace,
HH

Now I'm feeling bad, sad, or sorry for myself & it's upsetting that I can be so insecure! Pastor gets more than I do as token of appreciation!
Let me explain. Last night with our Pastor visiting, my charming wife fixes him this fancy vanilla, coffee kind of drink called Pacific Chai. He is quit the coffee guy. He buys Starbucks & they had there own little conversation about different restaurants around where they serve this Pacific Chai. He knew & she did as well -- I did not have a clue -- real bonding thing for them evidently. I am using W's car and on floor of front seat is a plastic bag & inside is a little gift wrapped package of this Pacific Chai --- How charming -- you'll remember my birthday was December 2 and got not one thing. The day before she said she look at cards, but did not want to spend the money - I told her a note on spare paper would be great. I would even enjoyed a cup cake she could have baked.
Now she's giving our Pastor this special little token of her appreciation - they're bonding, are you impressed - it makes s me a little sick!
I'm just the boring H! I don't have the charm or wisdom of our dear pastor, who has evidently impressed my W! It's just so sweet of her to be so considerate and kind with her gestures isn't it! [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]
Am I a weak, jealous, needy wimp or what?!
I know it would be a LB for me to say anything &#8211; then I look like this weak, needy insecure guy & who would like me then?! She said she is just not an affectionate person. Isn&#8217;t giving little gifts a sign of affection? She did not ask me if I want to sign a card or anything.
Anyway, thanks for your love & support!
Peace,
HH<p>[ December 13, 2001: Message edited by: Hurrian Hoosier ]<p>[ December 13, 2001: Message edited by: Hurrian Hoosier ]<p>[ December 13, 2001: Message edited by: Hurrian Hoosier ]</p>

hoosier, like many lurking here feel really bad for you. I know its hard to see this clearly but you are being played like a cheap juke box. She has no respect for you. why? you demand none. It possibly you have two choices here. Become a man and set the boundaries for what you will accept from her. This means also, laying out consequences for her stepping over the boundaries. Or, consider tatooing doormat on your forehead and learn to enjoy being mistreated. As far as the pastor goes, get away from him. Far too many pastors are shallow self serving people who found as easy path through life. Don't trust him. Find a counselor who has some insight and go to him/her. Please find some anger inside you and direct it at your wife. This is not suggesting to mistreat her. Its just to use to help you protect your self. God bless

Actually if your wife has a "toy" that is nothing to worry about. Lots of women have them. I will say if she is using it too much she is satisfying her sexual needs and might be out of the mood with you. Have you ever considered trying out a you, her and the toy scenario? <p>Also it is flattering for a woman to hear compliments from men other than your husband. If the same person tells you that you are pretty every day for years and years and you lose any confidence in yourself you want a second opinion. It doesn't mean a woman is looking for an affair. If i get whistled at or complimented I just ignore and walk on. I don't flip anyone off, but I don't encourage it.

Joell,
Thanks for input! I hear ya! Enough of the Mr. Nice guy, huh. I can only surpress these things so long - I can become quite exercised at times. If I understand your point, I have definite right to voice my position & voice it with authority. Let her know that maybe she thinks she's being cool, but it ain't hackin it for me -- if she doesn't get it, she can go pound salt & take up house keeping elsewhere & not take up so much air in my space. Something like that?
I can dig it -- what do I have to lose, if she wants to walk I can show her the door -- <p>Hoping I am allowed here,
Thanks for iput.<p>Yes, we have done the three way with her toy & it can be a charge. I am not opposed to her having this. We typically have sex in the evening and AM -- pretty much 8 out of 9 days -- on weekends and occasionally during the week we'll have sex a couple of times in afternnoon or early evening in addition - several 4 times a day days over a months time. So I get A LITTLE ANXIOUS WHEN WE MISS OUR CYCLE OVER AN EVENING AND NEXT DAY THAT SHE HAS SUCH A SEX DRIVE SHE FEELS A NEED TO GET THE TOY OUT?! I HAVE THE IMPRESSION THAT MOST GALS DO NOT NEED THAT KIND OF PHYSICAL ATTENION?
This makes me wonder if I can keep up such a pace & if I slow down for a couple days, her urges take over & she is looking for reinforcements from other guys again [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] -- she may want to get a more consisitent 3 or 4 times a day average ??!!. SORRY, I JUST DON'T KNOW IF I COULD KEEP UP THAT KIND OF PACE? [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]
HONESTLY, DON'T YOU THINK HER DRIVE IS A LITTLE ON THE HIGH SIDE? THAT'S MY POINT.
I know how this "other guy" compliment thing works. That was a point of emphasis she made 20 years ago as well as this last time around.
Peace,
HH

Update on coffee gift ~
It is still in front seat -- not the secret drop off to his office it could have been. She had some of this from her supply last night & I asked if she minded if I had --you see usually moniters something she really likes & will show some signs of disappointment if I have some. Last night she said in kind way (not with snippy tone she use) that there was not very much left. She said they were out of the decaf at the store. I of course told her it was OK -- I thought that would give her opportunity to tell me about getting some for Pastor -- no such conversation --
I am not upset like I was at first -- this may not be sign of infatuation as much as her more or less taking me granted (in regards to no B-day, present, yet special little present for P) [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>She I am sure will not think that I am justified at all in filing a little complaint -- I will say something I can antipate her response -- like many in past when it comes to my voicing my points -- I'm too insecure, sensative, weak kind of connatations & she is not at fault! [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]
She'll have strong justifications will turn it around that I am really shaollow & it's too bad that I'm so jealous. I can hear her now mouning to her co-worker friends about how bad she has that she can't even give an innocent little gift as token of apprecaition to minister. There is no need to concern myself with what she tells others!
Busy day,
later,
HH

Yes her sex drive is a little high. I'm 29 and can't go like that [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>
So she got her pastor a gift and not you on your birthday?

Did I read you correctly? She never bought you a
present or even a card for your birthday because
it would cost to much but can buy special coffee
for the pastor? What a bunch of bull. This was
a clear sign of disrespect to you showing
symbolically that you are not worth her time or
money. It really does sound like she uses you for
her own needs. I personally could never live with
a person who could treat me with such distain.
Good Luck.

Just lurking & thought I'd add my opinion.<p>Do you ever just cuddle? Or is your "cycle/routine" always involve sex? Maybe your W is starting to feel like just an object of sex from you? She obviously is craving for attention.<p>I have been in similar situations as your wife. I am 41, but look much younger. I get looked at often & and because I work in the fitness field I have always been around men (not to mention Me in my skimpy work out wear & them with their testosterones flying). <p>I have always politely taken any compliments & said sorry, but I am happily married with 4 kids. Of course that always brings the " Wow you don't look like you have 4 kids) Still don't know what your "suppossed to look like after having children) Anyway then comes the how old are your kids etc etc. When I say I have 2 in High School you can see the eyes pop. Wow, I thought you were about 29-30 or younger.<p>At that point I am very proud to say my age & I usually continiue to talk about my great family. If I have done a good job of it the usual response is..."I hope your H knows he's a lucky guy?" <p>I always responded "He does"...I know now that he didn't & he took me for granted.<p>This attention however was always enough. I didn't need to take it further.<p>Now that my H has cheated on me I feel differently, but still value my vows.<p>If your wife dresses sexy..compliment her! Don't tell her what she can or cannot wear. My kids love the fact that I dress "cool" & "trendy"...Not tacky. I know how to dress in certain situations. Is that a problem with your W?<p>Sex toys, videos, etc etc ...Hey whatever it takes to keep your love life exciting. As long as it isn't immoral.<p>I think you are worrying too much. This Pastor guy doesn't sound too good to me though.<p>Sorry, I don't know your whole story, but will try & read more.<p>Talk to your wife as if she were a beautiful stranger you just met. try it you never know.

Hey, HH,
Happy Belated birthday - so sorry I missed it - didn't know. As you know, I hang in recovery...
I have to agree with those who said how disrespectful it was of your W not to get you anything, not even a card!! You have every right to feel upset - esp. when she bought pastor a gift! She is playing you, HH. Sorry, but she needs a reality check. She is lucky to have you, and she does not appreciate! Now, I know this is like the pot calling the kettle black!!! - I feel my H may be playing me also - I have agreed to Steve H. to ride it out a little longer... but I feel a little like Rodney Dangerfield, in that I get no respect - you feel the same way????
This is such a rollercoaster...
Hugs,
S

Thanks to all my dear friends here!
I am sorry I do not have time to reply to each * I kind of got two topics, closely related going on here.
I do try to cuddle & she normally does not want to.<p>Update on Pastor&#8217;s involvement.<p>First, my DW spoke to me of getting our P the coffee & she also spoke of getting a card to go with it. She told me what she wrote in the card &#8211; thanking him for his help & Prayers, ECT. & wishing him & his family a Happy Christmas. She is going to give it to him in church today. All this is good. I feel she senses I have some anxieties with him &#8211; I have specially mentioned so before. I&#8217;m pretty sure that is why she mentioned the part about wishing his family well. Strange though, we usually have a card we giving some on eon a counter top on desk top &#8211; I do not see this card anywhere. The coffee is in her trunk in bag W/O card. &#8230;hmmm
I can&#8217;t help but be reminded of something here & being purely synical here, I know the reference to his family, in a romantic setting (I&#8217;m not convinced this is the case yet!) that the reference to family does not mean anything. Let me explain. When I spoke to her second OM&#8217;s (the one she said she was with on D/D), she asked for my Dw&#8217;s name & she said that she spoke to my DW once when she intercepted a phone message & told my DW that they were back together, and to back off They have a couple kids BTW. The OMW said my DW told her &#8220;good luck&#8221; &#8211; that was a couple months before D/D.<p>This is example of how committed my DW was to pursue these guys &#8211; I mean I still remember our Pastor speaking of all these Predators out there & with the idea that my DW is the victim here. It kind of gives me a sick feeling like I don&#8217;t think our Pastor really understands some of the dynamics here?! For some reason my DW has divulged a lot more than what I understand is confessed by most WS.<p>Remember, after the first guy had his way with my DW, in our house just after I had called & was on my home &#8211;15 minutes away; he did not call back. She started calling him. She was 250 miles away at her cousins & they have phone records, and she admitted to calling this guy several times &#8211;even 11:00 to 11:30 at night &#8211;evidently not reaching him most times. On Nov. 1, 2000 the first guy stands my DW up for a rondevue, & he evidently had stood her up a few times before. She calls the second guy & this is when the second guy & his W were separated. She drives approximately 15 miles to this second guys place for a sex. Somehow I just cannot embrace this idea that she is a victim here! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] She says she is not responsible &#8212; she is victim of predators??!! These actions just don&#8217;t like the typical victim to me ??? I feel if I try I get assertive with Pastor on these things that I appear like the insensitive guy wanting to have her wear a scarlet letter.<p>Now, when the pastor says that I have to understand that there are going to be predators that are going to hit up on my DW, I don&#8217;t quite get the compassion to feel she is a victim in this scenario?! Remember she & Pastor had met for around an hour & half. Now he is representing our marriage enrichment. I have thing feeling she & he have this great alliance & that is is primarily from her perspective & her needs.<p>Here is example of this new focus with Pastors involvement. There were tow assignments we had from Pastor &#8211; pray daily together & look for ways t express our love to each other. Yesterday was our third day. In bed before we got up I asked if she wanted to pray &#8211; this was how we did it the two prior days. She said she was really awake & did not feel like it. Literally, within two minutes, she was up & getting ready. An hour later we are in car & I make suggestion or ask if she wants to pray. She gives me her satirical tone, &#8220;I knew you were going to suggest this.&#8221; It was like an expression, here we go again, I&#8217;m forcing things on her. She said, &#8220;No, I don&#8217;t feel like it, go ahead if you like.&#8221; In retrospect I probably should have gone ahead, But I just feel like a pawn in her little game at times & I felt I would be really weak to do that.<p>
Yesterday afternoon I had occasion to call Pastors home yesterday in regards his son. He seemed very supportive, & asked how we were doing (it eased some of my anxieties about him) I thanked him for his help & he thanked me for having him over. The he said something I am struggling with. He said that I need to tell my DW that she is attractive. Now I feel a little threatened (remember she had just met him for an hour and a half ,4 days ago) I told him that I do actually. He went and said, I know that you feel she dresses provocatively on occasion & it bothers you. I said, &#8220;yes.&#8221; He said, &#8220;You need to tell her she is attractive even when she dresses that way.&#8221; Now I am to endorse her & encourage her when she dresses in a manner that bothers me?! ????<p>I just do not feel right giving her these compliments about her provocative dress???
I feel she now has this alliance with Pastor that makes me look like I&#8217;m the cause of marital unhappiness here, cause I don't hand out enough complimnets about her provocative dress?? <p>Peace,
HH

Have you thought about meeting with the Pastor yourself and telling him how you feel? He's there for you too you know.<p>Also about the provocative dress....once my hubby wanted a subscription to Playboy. I didn't like the idea, but the more I fought against it the more he wanted to do it. So finally he got a subscription which I encouraged and I ended up reading it more than he did (I actaully did just read the articles). Anyway by the time his sub. expired he didn't even renew it. <p>Point is there are some battles you should pick and choose. Don't sweat the small stuff. If she dresses sexy tell her. If other men look at her be proud that she's on your arm. <p>I also don't know if I agree wtih not talking with her about the coffee/B-day thing. I think if you hold it in you will resent. In my opinion telling your spouse how you feel and when you are hurt helps to strengthen the marriage. Hiding your feelings causes comtempt to grow.

BINthere,
First, I think your insights are 100% right on &#8211; even to the prayer thing, which I decided this morning to take the initiative to do when she resisted & then she followed suit. A part of her prayer included asking for help with working on her relationship with me & her (our) family. <p>Thanks so much for your reiterations! I need all the reinforced thoughts I can get.<p>Some of the issues I have been wrestling with came to a head & the damn broke yesterday morning after my last post.<p>I&#8217;ll give some detail (as always, I know), but first I&#8217;ll give you The Readers Digest version. Sunday, after I voiced some concern with the pastor gift, & the prepaid calling card she bought & had for over a month, but has not told me, she brought up issues I have had with one of my friends. All before church. She eventually became enraged & yelling & screaming that I have taken it too far & that she cannot stand me & that after the first of the year we are definitely separating! I said, &#8220;Good I&#8217;m glad you got that off your chest, because that is the impression I&#8217;m getting anyway!&#8221;<p>She met me at church later in a calm mood & we were with our son & his girlfriend that afternoon and she was cordial towards me & even talked with son about contributing to my gift. But that does not mean anything. I&#8217;m sure she will solicit some opinions from girls at work or at least her boss and that will have an impact on her approach with me tonight when I get home.<p>I can&#8217;t say for sure where she is coming from & I figured I said enough & that when or if she wants to make up &#8211; it is her move &#8211; she is the one that said she wanted to separate. She has not called me today, but as you recall, that is very common, even when she is on her way home and after she gets home &#8211; despite our many conversations about how I appreciate her calls & like to have some general conversations, she does not call. When I call her, she will many times act like it is an inconvenience &/or that I am too needy at times or sometimes that I smother her, so I have developed a discipline to not call her very much either. I don&#8217;t want to seem like the one that is always the pursuer, the needy one. I must Say in her defense, her annoyance with my calls has lessened a good deal, but I still have these reservation because of past experiences. I know that I can&#8217;t make her love me &#8211; I try to give her suggestions as to what I like &#8211; it&#8217;s her choice whether she does it or not. Then when I tell her I don&#8217;t feel secure on issues, she says she has been trying hard &#8211; again, it&#8217;s what she wants to do. She just does not want to really consider what I would prefer!!
As I will explain, I addressed the issue of the pastor gift & I also brought up the secret pre-paid calling, after which she got even more upset. She also got very demanding & upset in asking me what I told my best friend, in whom I am also sensitive about since she had wrapped her legs around his waist on the golf course in the fall of 2000.<p>Regarding our friend, I told her that I did not specifically ask him to not give her the big bear hugs on greetings and departures & the like. I told her what I told him a few months ago was that we were still working on issues & that our marriage was not rebuilt yet. She said that he won&#8217;t even talk to her now. I have noticed he is not nearly as affectionate in conversation, glances & he & his wife & me & my DW did not exchange hugs when we were at a party Saturday night. I told her that perhaps his W has said something to him? I said, &#8220;I am sure there is a permanent image in all of our minds when you wrapped you legs around his waist.&#8221; I also said, &#8220;Who knows, maybe she noticed how the two of you would look into each other&#8217;s eyes.&#8221; She said the she did not think so, that her & his DW were best of friends & they invited us to their New Years eve Party, ECT.<p>At the party I saw the three of them talking Saturday night! What is really ironic is that she has evidently noticed he does not have these lasting stares & exchanged glances &#8230; this little chemistry thing that she is also denying exists!! <p>She had also said that I will not be able to have any friends. I asked what she meant by that & she went on to say how my other best friend (who&#8217;s house we were at Saturday night) had given her a real tight bear hug & she demonstrated on me &#8211; when I was in the other room. I told her to &#8220;not get this all turned around & twisted where you present to others an image that I am the totally jealous. Paranoid type & suspicious with any and all guys!&#8221; I really don&#8217;t have any anxieties about this particular friend, cause I don&#8217;t see or feel the chemistry with her & this guy & she never wrapped her legs around this second guy! Sorry, I don&#8217;t feel the anxieties about this one!<p>She went into the routine of &#8220;How could you suspect your best friends and our Pastor?&#8221; I got a little heated & told her she did not have a right to demand how I feel & &#8220;Don&#8217;t try to tell me that best friends don&#8217;t ever FXXX their friends W or that Pastors never FXXX anyone!&#8221; I said, &#8220;Don&#8217;t try & tell me that does not happen!!&#8221;<p>Regarding the Pastor thing, I told her that she knew I have had some anxiety over him. I continued, &#8220;You have this intimate hour & half meeting & know you want to give him this special coffee & all & you don&#8217;t even buy me a birthday card or anything for my birthday?!&#8221; She said she signed it from both of us. But in that conversation She got very upset.
During the fireworks, she yelled to forget about the gift & she tore open the package & took the coffee out and put it up into our shelf. I have a feeling she&#8217;ll be telling our Pastor about this & her intentions, but that I am just too insecure & jealous! It reminds me of fight we had this summer where she said that perhaps I am just too insecure to have her as a mate. This is her battle cry most times when I take up a cause or take a stand. She of course never admits to any wrong doing. It is always my insecurities that create problems!<p>I decided since I had LB over the pastor thing, I might as well get the secret Pre-Paid calling card thing out on the table. When I asked her about that The pre-paid phone card I knew she purchased, but she had not told me. <p>When I asked what she did with the pre-paid card she bought, she said it was at her work. I said, what do you have a secret stash at work? &#8211; remember she works at retail store & does not have a desk. ??? She said she was going to give it to our son. I told her that she knew that was a sensitive issue with me & why would she keep a secret from me? I don&#8217;t recall her response &#8211; this is where she gets some what incoherent, like a cell phone &#8220;fussy&#8221; connection. I reminded her that I have brought this up several times to give her an opportunity to tell me. She said she thought I knew, I said again, then why would you not tell me when I gave numerous opportunities?! I then asked her if it was intended for our son, why was the seal broken. She said that after she got it she knew I might get upset & did not want to go through the hassle. BS, BS & more BS!! I said, &#8220;You want me to trust you & you do these things, how can I trust you when you do these things?&#8221; <p>This is when she got defensive & got real aggressive with demanding me to tell her about what I said to my friend (the one she had wrapped her legs around a year ago this fall). It then escalated to her aggressiveness in telling me she had had enough, ECT.<p>I wold really like to work it out, but I have decided I cannot live my life like this. It will soon be a year since D/D and she has fought my attempts to discuss real issues & adopt a plan of recovery, ect. & if she is not willing to do these things now, and I continue to just be Mr. Nice Guy & roll over & try to shove my feelings & anxieties into a bag, we end up exactly where we were &#8211; a marriage of convenience, all according to her terms & what incentive does she have to honor me or our marriage &#8211; she calls all the shots & if she feels justified to fool around, what is to prevent her?<p>Just another day in the jungle!!
Love & peace to all,
HH

Damage Control Report:<p>Her attitude since the battles of Sunday have been pleasant & at times injecting some humor. Definitely not sexual. This is OK because you know that I have been contemplating the fact that a period of abstinence may be a good idea.<p>Another stress factor for my DW is that we have decided to sell our home & down size to a condo.<p>This morning I specifically asked her (in my most diplomatic, non-judgmental tone!) if from her perspective she was still think of splitting after we sell our home. She smiled & in a pleasant tone said, I don&#8217;t know yet. <p>I then asked , I guess this might be a good time to start our program of Abstinence & she said, &#8220;yeah!&#8221; &#8211; again all light hearted. I said that if it to be something other than a punishment to me, I think we should talk about our objectives or what we hope to accomplish with it. I said I have a pamphlet that describes the benefits from An S-Anon point of view, I don&#8217;t know what the SA perspective is for sure, but I think this pamphlet gives us a start.
Her immediate response (still light hearted) was that she doesn&#8217;t need to read a book about it. I let that rest, as I&#8217;m trying hard to address issues in diplomatic, non-argumentative way. I then say to her something like, I know this probably doesn&#8217;t matter, but just for the record, I want to clarify that this is not a book, but a 3 or 4 page pamphlet.<p>BTW, her dress was not provocative & complimented her & she thanked me.<p>I also said that one of the principles is that we do not masturbate. She got defensive & said that means you can&#8217;t start that again (remember the first 28 & ½ years of our marriage we averaged having sex three or four times a year &#8211;that was average &#8211; some years it was; like 2 times!) and I said yes, it will be difficult for me too. She got a little upset and said that over our 31 years she did use her toys very often &#8211; (up until last year & ½ there was just one). She continued in upset gesture & muttered something like you must think I&#8217;m .. did not finish sentence &#8211; I think the impression she was trying to convey, is that the sex thing is not all that important to her. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]
She went on in sarcastic tone, where is this thing you want me to read. I said no, it&#8217;s not that good anyway. She persisted & began to tone it down. I said, I don&#8217;t want to be accused of shoving this down your throat. At one point I told the jest of this idea is that we learn to love & be intimate without sex. She took pamphlet & brochure I left out describing S-Anon.<p>Before she left I asked for prayer & I asked the Lord to help me to not think of her in lustful ways, but more in loving & caring ways. I took her hand & we were standing facing each other. She prayed, but had difficulty, turned away slightly. After she finished & started to walk away I gently grabbed her & hugged her & she tried to lightly pull away & squeezed harder.<p>I did not say anything about pre-paid calling card. I am thinking if she was wanting to show a positive sign that she is willing to do something here that she would bring it home & tell me or put it with other one we have. It does seem like a good deal. $18.00 for 500 minutes. As you will remember we discussed using them for long distance service this summer, but when I suggested leaving cards at home, she took exception to it, like why couldn&#8217;t I trust her and it never came up, until I have been talking about it. Do you see anything wrong with me suggesting we use this like we discussed & ask her to bring it home, so we could both use it? Of course if she has already used it while she has had it hiding for the past month this could be a problem she does not want to face. Of course she could easily just go buy another & I would not know the difference. Sometimes I think she does this stuff just to prove a point that she is not going to comply with my whishes &#8211; her strong need for &#8220;independence?!&#8221;<p>This may be a stupid example & it has pissed her off when I use this, but it makes a point for my way of thinking. You may remember my story this summer from the golf course. I suggested she take her umbrella along because there was a forecast for rain. She said, that&#8217;s OK I don&#8217;t care if I get wet. We got caught in a down pour & she got drenched like a rat &#8211; you know how much attention she pays to her look! To me a least, this is a good example of how she refuses to be even slightly influenced by my preferences of suggestions -- ??? I mean the umbrella matched her bag, it was light weight & she pulled a cart. I cannot think of any logical reason she would not take her umbrella, other than the fact that I suggested it & she was not going to comply because it was me?? I used this as example that I need to be shown at least a little respect. She even brought it up with her counselor & she said he did not see the point &#8211; &#8220;it was strictly her choice.&#8221; I did not challenge her or make any comments, but I don&#8217;t think she got it &#8211; to me the example is not a matter of her choice (again I think there is this control thing going on here), but how she responds to even the most insignificant suggestions by me. Do any of you see this point?
Peace,
HH

Perhaps you all can see, this concept is very difficult for DW to accept. I believe this is a problem for her because in her eyes, it would be a big slap in her face as it would appear to usurp her position of authority. Any and all suggestions as to presentaion ideas would be appreciated!
Peace,
HH

HH --<p>I don't know how exactly to approach or describe to you the feelings I get from your postings.
It may be the difference in ages between you and I. It may be that I relate more to your wife. I can't really put my finger on it.<p>But your postings and descriptions strike me as more of a parent/child relationship than husband/wife. <p>I'd really like to have the insight on your relationship from 5 - 10 years ago. Were these issues always present? Or have they surfaced only after the A's?<p>I'm real concerned for you. And I feel quite a bit of empathy and concern for your wife also. I'd also love to know how you describe her as a mother. The picture you paint of her is as an immature child. I'd like to know - do you ever see her in a position of authority or giving discipline to others?