Well it was confirmed today. Finally. After a few weeks of H waffling saying he didn't know what he was doing for the holidays, I've finally been told. <p>Ran into him while I was Christmas shopping today, which was just weird because it felt like I had just run into a friend I didn't expect to see, and not my own H who I've been with for 4 years. I was having coffee, so he joined me. Talked a bit about my weekend, but I was very uncomfortable and so was he. I finally asked about Christmas. He looked away, said he didn't know what he was doing, but I could tell he was lying. I told him I wanted to spend Christmas with him. He said nothing. Lots of silences, no LB's from me, tried to stay cool and happy, but felt like bursting into tears. <p>I couldn't stand it anymore and was just about to say I had to go, when he said he was uncomfortable. I asked him if he could tell me why and he just said, "don't know. I just am". I stood up and gathered my things. Tried not to take it personally, but couldn't help it. It was a double-whammy. I knew I wouldn't be with him at Christmas and now he was uncomfortable. We said goodbye, hugged and I told him I loved him. <p>A few minutes later I got a text message that said, "I'm sorry but I just get stressed, anxious and closed when I'm with you. I don't think I can do Xmas day like that."<p>WHAT?<p>You've all read my stories - we date and have fun together! We talk and laugh and catch up on the gossip and now he's saying he feels like this with me? What the F@@K is that all about? <p>I calmed down a bit - then rang him. He answered and we talked a bit. I stayed calm, no LB's, and considering my pain, did really well. Asked if he could explain how I make him feel anxious and stressed the only thing he could say is that he keeps thinking the old me is going to come out screaming and shouting. Said he doesn't want to be with his family or me because he doesn't want to feel uncomfortable. I promised him that no one will ask him questions or force him to talk about something he doesn't want to talk about and he said, "yeah, but it will be on my mind. The only place I feel comfortable is at OW's". <p>So that's it. That's how I was told. On a text message. Unbelieveable. After all my Plan A-ing. After our wonderful Thursday night, he is now saying that I stress him out. I am being totally honest with myself, here - I can't imagine how I do this. I have been Plan A-ing SO WELL! And he does genuinely seem at ease with me. <p>So here's my theory - let me know what you think; am I off track here?<p>-He didn't sound remorseful at ALL about not spending Christmas with me. His own guilt? Not wanting to face up to the fact that he's hurting me again? Not wanting to face up to ANYTHING? Or does he really just not give a sh@t?<p>-He says he only feels comfortable at OW's. I think this is because he doesn't have to face anything when he's with her. Like, he spends time with her at the weekends and everything else in his life disappears. No problems have to be dealt with, no pain, no venus around to remind him of the pain he's caused. <p>-NOW, all of a sudden, I make him anxious and stressed. So is he projecting guilt? Once again, it's all my fault. I'm the cause of this. I did it. <p>One more thing, I may have LB'd once, actually. I said to him "it kind of seems as though you've made a decision. Despite saying you are confused and don't know what/who you want, you spend every weekend with her and now Christmas." He was quick to reply, "No. I haven't made any decisions. I'm still confused. Still not ruling anything out."<p>Yeah. Right. <p>Feeling bitter. Feeling angry. Feeling generally crap and to the point of not caring anymore. But I know this will probably be temporary, because I'm fresh from all these new developments. I honestly feel like it's the fog talking, but sometimes I have doubts. He honestly just doesn't seem to care at all. It's all too painful sometimes, really. <p>So I've booked my ticket to go be with his family at Christmas. They've invited me, and it's where I want to be, so I'm going. Will be hard to try and explain to his little cousins where he is. Guess I'll just say he had to work. <p>love,
venusenvy

Oh venus I am sorry, but please, believe in yourself you CAN cope and you CAN cope WONDERFULLY.<p>If I admire any plan Aer's here you definetly are one. Look at the changes you have made in yourself! Think on how wonderful you have turned out lately.<p>Your WH is on DEEP FOG. He is acting like a little kid, doesn't want to face with the consequences, he is scared and will try to hide. Don't give the OW the delight of saying "He is with me and I am having the greatest time", don't be the one with the nose on their window freezing up in x-mas day.<p>Be proud, be bald, be yourself! If anybody asks where he is, just say he couldn't make it, don't give details, just change the subject and enjoy yourself as much as you can, just as if he really couldn't make it, the OW is like a blizzard blocking his way home, just don't think of them together, think of him being alone trying to get to you, but blinded by too much snow.<p>You can do it venus, i know you can!
You deserve a little holiday cheer, and perhaps when he tries to find where you are and finds you are at his family's, being nice, georgeous and oh so gracious he'll see what he is missing and that indeed he is in the middle of a blizzard, not in "lalaland" where he can be safe.<p>((((((((((lots of hugs)))))))))))))0

Really sorry, VE.<p>Big AZZZZZ Dip in the rollercoaster.<p>To heck with him on Christmas, okay? You go spend it with his relatives. I can guarantee he'll be in touch, and trying to make it up to you. <p>I think OW had him commit to being with her on Christmas a while back, so he's stuck. And the thing about him being afraid of you becoming the "OLD" you, well that was an excuse he pulled out of his "history bag" for justification.<p>He see's your changes, he may be leary of you reverting, I'll give him that, but him using it for the "Christmas excuse" was simply a convenient justification for him. In fact, I bet you've asked him if he's seen changes, and because he knows that's what you're trying your best to do, he used it. <p>You did good, honey. Please don't let this get you down. Christmas will come and go really fast. And you'll be with his family, that definitely says something. <p>Love,
Jo<p>p.s. One additional thing, Venus. Please do your best to keep your expectations low to nill. No matter how good it seems things change for the WS from day-to-day ... and they take you along with them if you allow them to.<p>[ December 17, 2001: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

VE:<p>I think Resilient is right on the money. He probably committed to X-mas with OW some time ago and simply cannot find a way to tell you directly. If I recall your previous posts, he avoids confrontation like the plague.<p>He clearly has seen your positive changes and I'm sure feels very guilty about his commitment to OW. Instead of telling you the truth that he is scared to back out of commitment with OW, he is giving you a big line of BULLS**T that he wouldn't feel comfortable with you during X-mas. This is clearly the self-centered justification he has devised to avoid his own feelings of extreme guilt. If he blames you, he doesn't have to face his own demons.<p>Has he even asked you what you will do for X-mas on your own? Does he have any knowledge that you will spend it with his family? I agree with the others that going to spend X-mas with his family would be the best thing to do. It seems to me he will require some pretty strong doses of reality before he will come out of the fog.

Maybe you need to detach a bit; you know don't make yourself so available to him emotionally. If he calls for another date maybe have other plans.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>He says he only feels comfortable at OW's. I think this is because he doesn't have to face anything when he's with her. Like, he spends time with her at the weekends and everything else in his life disappears. No problems have to be dealt with, no pain, no venus around to remind him of the pain he's caused.<hr></blockquote><p>Venus, I know you have emotional needs that are not being met by your husband, BIG TIME! But, plan A is about YOU meeting your own emotional needs, and his!<p>What you wrote - is so insightful. Re-read it! This is EXACTLY how you must behave in plan A. This is how she is behaving, and she doesn't have the investment in her relationship with your husband that you do!! <p>You need to find a way to realize that your emotional needs cannot be met by your husband at this time. If you were without your husband, completely - say in plan B, or a divorce; you would not have your needs met by him anyways. So, take advantage of this plan A time that you have as a learning process for yourself.<p>This may be an unpopular response, but Venus, think about your own words - and let's change some things about how we want your husband to feel - then make a plan to make that happen - by changing YOUR behavior. (you can't change his, or hers, just yours.)<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Revision should be: He says he only feels comfortable at Venus's. (not OW's). I think this is because he doesn't have to face anything when he's with Venus (not her.) Like, he spends time with her _____ and everything else in his life disappears. No problems have to be dealt with, no pain, no OW (not venus) around to remind him of the pain he's caused.<hr></blockquote><p>TNT

VE<p>You titled your post "don't think I can cope"<p>But actually--you are:<p>"So I've booked my ticket to go be with his family at Christmas. They've invited me, and it's where I want to be, so I'm going. Will be hard to try and explain to his little cousins where he is. Guess I'll just say he had to work."<p>That looks like coping to me. Yeah, it may not be exactly what you want and yeah, it may not be the greatest x-mas...but that is what coping is all about. Getting by as best as you can!!!!<p>When my W (WS) was about where your H is, she couldn't even stand to be around me or our house...said the same things about it making her uncomfortable, stressed out etc....your H will get past that.<p>It doesn't mean that it will save your marriage, mine is still up in the air even though my W got past those feelings...but I think it will put you in a position to work on it.<p>I the meantime do exactly what you are doing. Do stuff for you, cope, hang in there and continue working on Venus...<p>Even if it all fails...and there is no reason now to think it will...won't you be better for it?<p>PS:---I kind of agree with others here who say your H may have made an earlier commitment to the OW and doesn't feel like he can (or wants to) get out of it. There could be a lot of reasons for that...not all of them bad...it sounds to me like you have him at least thinking...<p>Take care <p>E

venusenvy,<p> Could you send me an email? jdmac1@yahoo.com
I have something to ask you about.<p> jd

jdmac- check your in-box!

Thanks everyone; your support means so much to me. <p>Seriously feeling like crap on a stick, though. <p>Resilient said - "I think OW had him commit to being with her on Christmas a while back, so he's stuck. And the thing about him being afraid of you becoming the "OLD" you, well that was an excuse he pulled out of his "history bag" for justification."<p>I had suspected this, as well. All of it. What confuses me (and I know I should expect to be confused in all of this) is that for the past month, he's been contacting me constantly. Lots of emails. Lots of texts. Even just last Thursday night, he rang me just after I left. And now. Nothing. Not a word. If I hadn't seen him today, I probably wouldn't have heard a peep out of him. Again, I ask - is it his own guilt? Or is it possible that he's decided over a period of just a few days that I am a complete waste of time?<p>RJB2 said - "If I recall your previous posts, he avoids confrontation like the plague. He clearly has seen your positive changes and I'm sure feels very guilty about his commitment to OW. Instead of telling you the truth that he is scared to back out of commitment with OW, he is giving you a big line of BULLS**T that he wouldn't feel comfortable with you during X-mas. This is clearly the self-centered justification he has devised to avoid his own feelings of extreme guilt. If he blames you, he doesn't have to face his own demons."<p>I agree. And I understand this concept, but why is it still so painful? Probably my own self-doubt, if I'm honest. And yes, he does avoid conflict like the plague, which is why he isn't talking to any of his friends or family at the moment. <p>trustntruth said - "This may be an unpopular response, but Venus, think about your own words - and let's change some things about how we want your husband to feel - then make a plan to make that happen - by changing YOUR behavior. (you can't change his, or hers, just yours.)"<p>Thank you for that, and I like the way you rewrote my sentence. It makes sense to me and I would love for him to feel that way, but you're right - I can't make him. Can't force him into anything. Can only do what I can do for me. <p>I can't stop crying. This is just so ridiculous. I didn't ask for any of this crap. I just want it all to go away. Wish I could be more like my H in that sense - do an "ostrich" and not look at it or feel it. <p>I'm glad I'm going to H's Aunt's house for Christmas, but it is going to be very difficult. H and I used to live there when we were just starting out. I will probably be sleeping in our old room, which I'm sure will be a huge trigger. But I love these people and their kids are like our own. We've watched them grow up and have spent the past 4 Christmas' with them. I will feel safe there and supported and they've said I can stay as long as I want. <p>God, please make all this pain go away. <p>
He see's your changes, he may be leary of you reverting, I'll give him that, but him using it for the "Christmas excuse" was simply a convenient justification for him. In fact, I bet you've asked him if he's seen changes, and because he knows that's what you're trying your best to do, he used it.

Oops, sorry! Left a bit there at the end!<p>how do you go back in and edit posts?

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by venusenvy:
<strong>I'm glad I'm going to H's Aunt's house for Christmas, but it is going to be very difficult. </strong><hr></blockquote><p>VE,
I wanted to throw my 02¢ in here, too.....<p>You've gotten some very good advice, I just wanted to add a couple of comments......in a couple of areas similar to my own. <p>I am spending my Christmas Eve at the same place WE have spent EVERY CHristmas Eve for 22 years!!! Do I really think my WH is NOT going to be thinking of this??? AND knowing I'm "there"???? (It's in "HER" town - we used to live there, now live 180 miles away). I don't care WHAT she has scared up for him, it's just "not the same." In fact, the only time we ever missed this Christmas Eve Party, we lived with his dad in another state, 1200 miles away.....when we returned, after a couple of years, WH commented - on Christmas Eve, while sitting at the party(!) - THIS IS HOME!! THIS IS WHERE WE BELONG!!! That was only 3 years ago. Oh, yeah! I KNOW he'll be thinking of what he's missing.<p>Sooo, my long-winded way of saying: Just go, and enjoy it! He'll be missing YOU and the FUN you are having with HIS family!!! He will! Maybe not exactly ON Christmas, or the day before, or after, but soon. He WILL. Your "history" together is too hard to just throw away.....<p>WHich brings me to a second point (dang! I DO get long-winded.....). You said he was contacting you quite regularly for awhile, and now NOTHING! DO NOT BELIEVE that you are "a complete waste of time." IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU.....he's battling his conflicting feelings. He's moving closer to you, and yet, has "committed" stuff to OW. You state he's a "conflict avoider." So's mine! YOU KNOW how hard it is to get them to "take a stand." Getting closer to you is causing him problems....either she knows about it, might find out about it, or is sensing it, since he's probably "distancing" somewhat from her, since he's now letting you meet some EN's (possibly conversation? Or Admiration?). Just stay the course....you're on the right track, even tho it doesn't feel like it right now, this week, with Christmas less than a week away.<p>Believe me, I will NOT allow HIS "mess" to mess up MY Christmas. Sure, I WILL miss not being with him this Christmas. But you knwo what? I might as well get used to it, in case it becomes a permanent situation. If it doesn't, well, then HE will have only ruined HIS OWN Christmas, and not mine!!! If you stay positive, it will get through to him that YOU are strong enough to go on without him, and somehow, these things always make us more attractive to them! Go figure. They don't want us "clinging" - they want us "independent of them" yet when we do get that way, it seems to be more attractive! [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Lupo

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by venusenvy:
<strong>is that for the past month, he's been contacting me constantly. Lots of emails. Lots of texts. Even just last Thursday night, he rang me just after I left. And now. Nothing. Not a word. If I hadn't seen him today, I probably wouldn't have heard a peep out of him. Again, I ask - is it his own guilt? </strong><hr></blockquote><p>Venus,<p>Please don't cry honey, please.<p>IMVHO, I think your H hasn't contacted you because he now doesn't know what to say, so yes, it's his guilt over telling you about Christmas plans and leaving you on your own at Christmas, instead of by your side where he belongs. He knows what he's doing is wrong, but he's addicted. He hasn't made any decisions ... he's just "AVOIDING" .. taking the path of least resistance. My XH was an "AVOIDER" so I recognize the behavior. <p>This is so so hard, I do know. If it helps you at all, do know that your H wil be thinking of you just as much as you'll be thinking of him. How can he have a joyous Christmas when what he is doing is hurting the one he loves so terribly. <p>AND VENUS .... what you have to do now, of all things, is NOT LB .... lets consider this the ultimate test, you LB and he won't have fond memories of you on Christmas day, and OW will look like a cherub <Barf!> <Gag!> <Hurl!><p>I'm really really sorry, Venus. This may not help, but just know there are lots of use here, some folks with small children, who sadly will not have one of their parents with them on Christmas because of this friggin nightmare called infidelity.<p>But God is watching after each and every one of us, including you too, VE.<p>Love,
Jo<p>[ December 17, 2001: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

You can get through it, venus. The first Xmas is always the hardest, but you CAN get through it just fine. Just think, at least you haven't lost children so you don't have that hellacious added adjustment to bear.

Hi everyone, and thanks again. I know you're all right. His anger at me is projected because of his own guilt. And I do wonder how he will feel knowing that I'm with his family - a place where we've always spent Christmas. I guess I keep thinking he's in such a blissful oblivion when he's with OW, that he won't even give me or his family a second thought. Makes me very sad. <p>But I will enjoy myself. I am very much looking forward to it.<p>Funny thing - I tried to ring H last night to talk about presents and he didn't answer the phone. Figured he was mad at me for "making him feel uncomfortable". Had a long cry in the bathtub then sent him a text message to tell him his favourite car was on a TV show. Didn't hear back, of course. Guess I'm getting the silent treatment for sure. <p>This morning, got an email from him saying he was in a panic because he couldn't find his tax paperwork and asking if I wouldn't mind tearing the house apart looking for it for him. At the end of the email, he said "thanks for texting me about the car show. I love those cars. Do you want one?" Unbelieveable! Just goes to show how much this is all on his terms. The minute he wants something, he doesn't hesitate to ask and then softens it all by asking if I want a new car??? WTF?????<p>A few minutes later, he sent me another email saying how stressed out he was with filing his taxes, as he can't find anything and his computer at home isn't working and he can't print anything out from work. Says he's going bonkers, etc... <p>I just smiled. I can guarantee that if he were still living here, he would know exactly where everything is because I kept it all filed and tidy. I've seen his new bedroom and it's a mess. It doesn't surprise me that he can't find anything. Did I say this to him? Of course not. I just replied that I was sorry he was stressed and I will do my best to look for his paperwork when I have time today. He even tried to wrangle his way into coming over tonight to pick it up if I find it and suggested we do some shopping as well. Told him I couldn't hang out with him tonight as I have plans, but that he was more than welcome to come over anyway. <p>It's all too frustrating. Who the H**L does he think he is? Doing what he did to me yesterday and then having the nerve to ask me to jump through hoops for him! God, I can feel more tears coming on. But I can't. Really have to pull myself together - I have got a lot to do today and can't be dealing with his "I don't need you. Oh, wait! Yes I do!" behaviour. <p>God, give me strength!