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#966391 12/28/01 05:26 PM
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SNL and others, I've seen a lot of discussion here lately about why BS's just don't "get it", and yet I still am having trouble getting it through my thick skull.<p>SNL said: "It may simply mean the ws just does not want to be married anymore to you, is that so hard to understand? ...you plan a us to death, until we can't take anymore, and have to get some space. ...It does not mean we are selfish, or uncaring, or dislike you, we just do not want the intimacy of marriage with you. ...We tell you this and you still don't get it."<p>The part I don't get is this. SNL, you make it sound like the WS typically comes up to the BS, kisses him/her on the cheek, and says "honey, I don't want to be married to you anymore". And then they file for divorce. <p>Yet the reality is that from what I see here, most WS's don't do it that way. They (including my VSTBXW, and you too, SNL) don't say that they want out. They tell us that they are not in love with us, are confused, and don't know what they want (usually they neglect to inform us that they are already sleeping with someone else). Then, after having dumped this wonderful news on us, they run out to the backyard and proceed to build a fence, on which they promptly climb and grow roots. We, the BS's, try to get them off the fence, to no avail. I know you think it's selfish of us to try to preserve our families, but isn't it just as selfish of you to torture us with your indecision? At least we BS's KNOW what we want...<p>If all you (WS's) want is out, why don't you just LEAVE, without the lies, the cheating, the "confusion", the "fence sitting"? That's the part I don't get.... Can you help me?<p>AGG<p>[ December 28, 2001: Message edited by: AGoodGuy ]</p>

#966392 12/28/01 07:01 PM
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AGG,<p>As much as it pains me to say this, I don't think that any BS will truly understand the mindset and motives of a fence-sitting WS. Do you really *want* to understand? If you did come to some kind of understanding, wouldn't it mean that you are capable of that kind of mindset? I don't understand, and I'm glad I don't understand the whole fence-sitting ordeal. <p>I might also mention that I'm not a big proponent of Plan A. It did not work for me. I had suspicions ... and as long as I just had *suspicions* that H was still in contact with the OW, I promised myself that I would play nice. But once I found out for sure, proof positive, he was outta there, no questions asked. Immediate Plan B. I'm convinced that is the only reason that we're still together. And believe me, it was not the blessing I thought it would be. Because I still feel like a schmuck, planting a pleasant smile on my face all the while H was lying to me about continued contact with XOW.<p>I do also think that when some WS say they want out ... they want out. But for me, personally, the only way to find out where I stood was to go directly to Plan B. <p>belld

#966393 12/28/01 07:43 PM
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Hi belld,<p>I agree with you, when some want out, they want out. When my VSTBXW finally got her butt out (after eight months of fence sitting), it was huge relief for me...<p>What I take issue with is SNL's constant rhetoric that we (the BS's) are somehow manipulating the WS's by trying to keep the marriage together. Like I said, if the WS's want out, why don't they just leave?? Why do they sprout roots on their homebuilt fences? And then we are chastised for not getting "it"... What is the "it"???<p>AGG

#966394 12/28/01 07:47 PM
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that was a brief comment to elad in the context of his post. But I will try to answer your question, in part from how I "feel", and in part from what I understand about human behaviour, and you must decide for yourself whether what I know is correct, or just a lot of foggy baloney, your call. I will say though, unlike most people I have met thousands of people, married and single in the course of my adult life. Depending on how observant I am, that counts for something. But I am not a "trained" psychologist, and do not claim such expertise either....although I generally get pretty good marks from the professionals I have dealt with over the years. What I do know is real life is nothing like what you read about here, this stuff applies to a very small number of people. Even the mere fact that the harleys only "see" people who can (and are willing) to pay $120 hr is self-selecting in itself. IMO their principles represent good observational skills on how successful marriages work, but do not adequately reflect how few people will apply these principles, and what to do when married to those who will not. Nor do their principles adequately deal with motivation. There is so much talk about "doing it" and all will be well......<p>well, maybe, but at the very least one must want to do it, and many of the bs are married to people who do not want to do it, and they just refuse to accept that.....that drives them to coercive behaviours (as I mentioned), and even if they work (apparently restore) that is no better a basis for marriage than an affair, and leaveing to marry the op. Marriage (as in intimate bonding, should be about a completely free choice, no guilt or coercion or manipulation of any kind). I suspect the harleys have been far less successful than is assumed, and I find it odd they have no statistical database, or follow-up programs to document and support the notion love is just a decision, just do it, and you will be passionately in-love with whoever you focus on. I really wonder how many people have been exposed to MB principles, went on to restore their marriages, and are living long-term (5, 10, 20) passionate marriages now, vs how many are still unfullfilled and unhappy in their marriages, gave up anyways, or never restored in the first place. No one knows, there is no excuse for that, they should have good solid numbers, that can be independently verified.<p>This is what I mean by don't get it. People just assume marriage is a by the numbers activity. Just do it, and all will be wonderful. BS who subscribe to this (and MB encourages it), act as if it is all just a matter of plan a, that they really know what is best for the ws, and so forth. This is patronizing in the extreme, and fosters a notion the ws is just some childish truant, who must be led from the fog and repaired. The sad thing is, human psychology being what it is, many times a ws can be apparently "fixed", only they really aren't, they just give into the manipulation, and come back (usually cause the op didn't work out), and the marriage muddles along, a honeymoon period, and then a gradual slipping back to the sameo sameo....you hear it here, time after time after time, and it is so sad, such wasted lives. <p>My point is listen to your ws, maybe they are confused, maybe not, maybe for the first time they are telling you the truth, they really just do not want to be married to you....it is not so terrible, they were a stranger once allready in your life, you don't have to be married to them to be have a successful life. If you don't consider this, and what the real basis of your desire to reel them back in is, what do you win? Nothing, just a sad lonely marriage, to either someone who is just settling for you, or has personality disorders and will never bond very well, and you will be making excuses for them and your marriage forever. And yes, it can be restored, and is occassionally, but IMO one should be very demanding and analytical about what is happening, not just try to restore the "fantasy", cause you cannot bear failing, or being alone, or starting over. I hear often people voice, but what if I didn't give it that extra extra try, I will always wonder....I say so what? We will always wonder about life, it is the nature of life. Who is to say if you were not more realistic, and set high standards you would not have found a much better mate who would have made your life far more rewarding? (and would no longer worry much about what might have been).<p>This is all philosophic stuff, and is hated by some here, probably cause it questions motivations, and suggests people (bs) are in a lot of denial themselves. And implies it makes a difference who we are married too, a huge difference. I can't help that, the fact is it does make a difference. The quality of your marriage is a direct function of who you marry.... not how well you plan a.<p>agg...SNL said: "It may simply mean the ws just does not want to be married anymore to you, is that so hard to understand? ...you plan a us to death, until we can't take anymore, and have to get some space. ...It does not mean we are selfish, or uncaring, or dislike you, we just do not want the intimacy of marriage with you. ...We tell you this and you still don't get it."<p>agg...The part I don't get is this. SNL, you make it sound like the WS typically comes up to the BS, kisses him/her on the cheek, and says "honey, I don't want to be married to you anymore". And then they file for divorce. <p>snl...Was not my intent to imply that. Indeed it is more often a messy business, proceeded by years of fighting and neglect, affairs, workaholism, many things. And the dissolution is fraught with hurt feelings, accusations (about vows and such), and all the usual games people play when they try to control each other. My point is allow some dislocation of emotions when divorce finally is put on the table...but get over it, and start dealing with it rationally, radical honesty, each spouse telling the other, yes I want this marriage to work (and then doing the doggone work!!!!!!!!!), or no, I would prefer to be seperated, and divorce...then do just that. Instead the spouse who does not want a divorce fights tooth and nail to "make" the other see how wrong they are, and how they should want the marriage....this is extremely disrespectful, your spouse is an adult, assume they are honestly telling you their feelings, thank them, and act on it amicably. If they come to find they feel differently they will tell you....but instead we generate this huge emotional turmoil, and many ws will cave, they just cannot stand all the unhappiness etc..... and the marriage continues, but with a fundamentally uncommited spouse. I do not think that is desireable, or conducive to passionate marriages.<p>agg....yet the reality is that from what I see here, most WS's don't do it that way. They (including my VSTBXW, and you too, SNL) don't say that they want out. They tell us that they are not in love with us, are confused, and don't know what they want (usually they neglect to inform us that they are already sleeping with someone else). <p>snl...Indeed it is messy, in a perfect world this is not how it would happen, but then in a perfect world we would not have unhappy marriages either, nor would we have neglect, abuse, sociopaths, crime, greed, and a lot of other things either. I can only speak for myself, but a lot of those things, confusion, don't know etc, is a direct response to the incredible pressure of having someone tell you you are destroying them. I know I do not have the power to destroy anyone, but I am not uncaring, and the desire not to hurt my w is almost more than I can stand (so I feel responsible for her, and vows, and all that stuff)....but the alternative is to just give in, and settle, and that is no good, and unfair to her too. This is the place many ws find themselves, and it is cause the bs will not let us go without extracting the emotional pound of flesh. This is not how love should work, it should not be about anger, and promises, and coercion, and guilt.....I would never want anyone to love me that way, and I cannot understand you that do. If a spouse says I do not want to be married, all one can do is respectful ask for an explanation, respectfully request councelling (if one thinks it would be useful), and honor their feelings and let them go. <p>In-love cannot exist unless BOTH enthusiastically want to be married, it really does not make any difference whether you think they are in a fog or not. You can only let them go, and if you are right, they really are the one for you, they won't go very far....<p>As for affairs, is just one way of saying you are done (not necessarily a good way, but it is a way). Perhaps if marriage licenses expired every 5 years, and had to be renewed their would be less affairs. Affairs come in several flavors, but one is simply an outcome of no longer wanting to be married, and in this state of emotional divorce (harleys term, not mine) one is "vulnerable" so to speak to bonding with another, but having divorced yet cause of the emotional inertia present in human relationships, and the common practice of avoiding this kind of emotional controversy.... but an affair forces you to face it.<p>agg...Then, after having dumped this wonderful news on us, they run out to the backyard and proceed to build a fence, on which they promptly climb and grow roots. We, the BS's, try to get them off the fence, to no avail. I know you think it's selfish of us to try to preserve our families, but isn't it just as selfish of you to torture us with your indecision? At least we BS's KNOW what we want..<p>snl....Selfish? Another overused word, and concept, yep the bs are selfish and they hide behind family and vows, and yes the ws are selfish, cause they too want what they want. It is the nature of humans good guy, and we all think our selfish is ok, and everyone elses wrong. Frankly I don't really care at all about the selfish arguments, I just consider it a given EVERYONE is totally selfish, and is irrelevant. What I am concerned about is one thing, and one thing only.....that two people enthusiastically, honestly, and passionately choose each other, freely and without coercion, manipulation, guilt, etc. of any kind...that's it, pretty simple really. In the choice of who we are going to spend our lives with, sleep with, give our bodies too, it should be a TOTALLY selfish choice, don't you agree? Or do you want to "own" your spouse? There is a lot of talk about vows, is so stupid. Is their anyone, I mean really anyone, who wants someone to be their spouse who does not honestly want them? If so, and they cite vows make it ok, how is this different from owning the deed to any property? Of course not, so instead the bs not only wants the ws to "stay" they want them to want to stay, and lie about it to boot. If you ask your spouse are they in-love with you do you want the truth? I suggest if you are gonna come unglued you do not want the truth, you want them to lie, they know it, and they know you know it, and it makes us crazy.<p>agg....If all you (WS's) want is out, why don't you just LEAVE, without the lies, the cheating, the "confusion", the "fence sitting"? That's the part I don't get.... Can you help me?<p>snl...Is very easy agg. You let em go, no guilt, no hurt feelings, no woe is me, no accusations of fog, no complaints about vows, no nothing. In the meantime you plan a (for a short time), then plan b if they are sitting on fence, then plan d. You live your life with increasing independence as you disconnect, making it clear they have a place for a limited time (assuming you want to give em one). This will eliminate all the agony bs go through, will put the proper pressure on a ws who is confused, and will lead to a specific resolution in a reasonable time frame. But there is so much denial and co-dependentcy in marriage that people just will not do this.<p>This is necessarily brief agg, perhaps you can divine my basic ideas about this stuff, hope it helps. No doubt I will recieve a few slings and arrows, but I did this cause you asked, and cause it makes me so sad to see bs beating their brains out for nothing. IMO I disagree, I don't think most marriages are worth saving, I think perhaps a significant number can be saved, but many are simply not going to work, are unsafe, non-nurturing places, and for the life of me, I cannot understand why people keep trying to make them work..... I especially do not understand the women who obsessively (and sacrificially) "love" men who clearly will never love them right. I think that many are "project" women, who are convinced they are the "one" who will lead this man to the light....kind of a narcissim in reverse I guess. This isn't brain surgury, human psychology is not that difficult if you really apply yourself, nor is it that hard to discern the reality of a given marriage.... all it really takes is radical honesty, and a cessation of game playing with each other. What seems to be more difficult, is for people to figure out what THEY really want/need from a marriage, and have the courage to seek it out (and end a marriage where it will not happen).<p>I have left all the religious arguments out of this agg. My position is simple, I have examined the Scriptures for myself (as opposed to the brainwashing I have recieved all my Christian life).... nowhere does the Bible (or God) say a given marriage is absolute, or even the right one....what Scripture is about is describing how marriage looks, feels, IMO so we have a standard for assessing whether we have successfully bonded...and if not, well IMO the Bible is saying we need to do something about it. Either fix it, and meet the standard, or end it. What a given individual does is between them and God, and discerning His will for us. No one can tell you what to do, either stay married, or divorce.

#966395 12/28/01 08:21 PM
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>..maybe for the first time they are telling you the truth, they really just do not want to be married to you....it is not so terrible <hr></blockquote>
<p>snl,<p>This statment brings me to tears and makes me literally sick to my stomach. Please tell me you don't really believe this. What a callous statement that is to these hurting people. Perhaps people on the receiving end of such a statment would like to comment on whether or not "...it is not so terrible."

MHO,
Estes

#966396 12/28/01 08:55 PM
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SNL,<p>Yeah, that was kinda harsh, my man. You know that I agree with you on some things and I disagree on others, but that was a bit too blunt. Sometimes unsolicited honesty isn't really appropriate, given the situation. And again - not to say that I am disagreeing with you; merely your semantics. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>AGG - you know what I really think? I think that the mind of a WS, regardless of whether they want out or if they just want to be selfish and have a fling, is so full of dark, greedy thoughts, it is unfathomable to most people. Why do they fence sit? Could be the financial situation is conducive to them. Not many women want to give up their financial stability - even for love. Especially if that love is not yet guaranteed. Not wanting to look like the bad guy. I think that's also a big one. Many people who have EMRs - at least those that I am aware of - are very image conscious and do *not* want to be seen as the heavy. Even if they are. It's a bit of a narcissistic value built in, IMHO.<p>Why do fence sitters stay? Again, MHO is that they are hard-wired to use other people for their own benefit and are lacking in the empathy department. Doesn't make them 100% evil people ... just different from you, with different flaws.<p>belld

#966397 12/28/01 08:59 PM
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SNL, thanks for your thoughts. I actually agree with your point that not all marriages can (or should) be saved. <p>Where I do disagree with you is your assertion that in most cases the WS wants out and the BS wants to keep the WS against their will. In most cases, the WS climbs on the fence, leaving everyone in a state of suspended animation. To top it off, the WS often continues the affair, while still fence-sitting. This puts the BS into the untenable position of having to put up with the WS's affair (a disrespectful behavior if ever I saw one), or become proactive and file for the divorce. This is somewhat comical, because the last thing most BS's want is a divorce, yet the WS who is "unsure" or "confused" is not willing to do the filing. Just for the record, I ended up doing exactly that (filing for divorce from my WS) after she built a fence the size of the Great Wall of China. So I do not agree that most WS's want out and the BS's keep them against their will.<p>Like I said, that's the part I don't get. Why can't the WS (who supposedly wants so bad to leave the marriage) just LEAVE? I know you say it's pressure from the BS, peer pressure, or whatever. Yet you yourself said: "either fix it, and meet the standard, or end it". I think the BS's are trying to do the former, yet the WS's are doing neither...Why?

#966398 12/28/01 09:05 PM
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I think the BS's are trying to do the former, yet the WS's are doing neither...Why? <hr></blockquote><p>Interesting thread. I'd answer this saying that generally they are just afraid to lose "everything" that they lose by ending the marriage. So they try and hold on loosely to the marriage and carry on the affair at the same time, until they know clearly what they want. Kind of sad.

#966399 12/28/01 09:12 PM
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Rick, ditto. I think you're right. But I also think that they (WS) have also set up a tacit "beauty contest" between the OP and their spouse, and they're waiting to see which one scores enough points to win. If it's a case where the WS really wants to be with the OP, my guess is that they want to feel secure in *that* relationship, so they can hop from the marriage into a relationship/marriage with the OP. I can particularly see this being true for female WS's, who are more financially dependent on their spouses as a general rule.<p>After all, no use giving up one's comfort without a guarantee. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>belld

#966400 12/28/01 09:23 PM
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All the philosophizing in the world doesn't change the fact that some things are right and some things are wrong. Stringing along a wounded BS and family for whatever reason - the ubiquitous "confusion", self-interest, reluctance to leave children behind, financial concerns, etc. - is cruel and disrespectful and categorically wrong.<p>I agree, either fix it or get out. The problem is that a fence-sitting WS is refusing, passively or actively, to participate in fixing the M, and he/she certainly is not getting out.<p>I suspect that one motivation for fence-sitting is to push the BS to such a point of dispair that he/she files for divorce in emotional self-defense. This way the WS absolves him/herself of the responsibility of being the one to break up the marriage. After all, the BS was the one to file for divorce, right?<p>I would never contend that the BS has nothing to improve upon because that is not true. But a fence-sitting WS is intentionally just plain cruel. Meanwhile, the BS waivers between the humiliation of rejection and the fear of losing the M. <p>Wishing all better days,
Estes<p>[ December 28, 2001: Message edited by: Estes49 ]</p>

#966401 12/28/01 11:00 PM
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the concern is about fence sitting? Ok, my 2 cents.... there is no such thing. It is an image, a semantic construct, a way for a bs (and that point of bias) to diminish the efforts of the ws to resolve the marriage..... instead I would call it a "dance" each plays a role...the bs clings and tries to keep the marriage going, the ws fencesits and tries to end the marriage....until one or the other takes definitive action, the dance continues. The bs can end it any time they choose, by plan b/d, just like the ws can end it anytime by reconcilliatio(with protection)/or divorce. Frankly I see no functional difference in the 2 positions, each is voluntary and one cannot exist without the other....why is this a big deal? Correct me if I am missing something here, but can't a bs knock the ws off the fence anytime they so choose? The real question is why do bs (and ws for that matter) torture themselves at all. The solution is still the same, you plan a a couple months, you then plan b a few months, then you serve divorce papers. While I feel bad for all the folks who suffer in dysfunctional relationships, I am finding it increasingly difficult to muster much sympathy for long term suffering, we all have choices in life, and those who hang on to dysfunctional relationships and cry about the torture, I gotta ask, who is making you do so? Or is it a choice? I don't want to appear heartless here to a board populated by bs, and the pain of a relationship ending, but in the final analysis, we all choose our poison, so what purpose is served crying about being a victim? To me, this just seems to perpetuate the pain. Every adult worthy of being an adult surely understands no relationship is gauranteed, and may end, in fact probably will end (statistically speaking), and most likely badly....correct?<p>estes...... (snl)maybe for the first time they are telling you the truth, they really just do not want to be married to you....it is not so terrible <p>estes...This statment brings me to tears and makes me literally sick to my stomach. Please tell me you don't really believe this. What a callous statement that is to these hurting people. Perhaps people on the receiving end of such a statment would like to comment on whether or not "...it is not so terrible."<p>snl....These threads place me in a conundrum, I am asked a philosophical question which deserves an honest answer, one devoid of emotion. Yet I will usually be chastised for being heartless, cruel,insensitive, whatever..... I am none of those things. The stories here bring me to tears, and outrage regularly. These issues cannot be resolved emotionally, nor can they be resolvedanalytically, it requires both. There is much emotion on this board, I try to put a little analytical spin to stuff also. IMO the way out of emotional turmoil is to turn off the emotions (after assessing what direction you want to go), and subject the decision to an analytical test, if you find agreement you act on it...if not, back to the emotional (or analytical ) drawing board. The fact of the matter is estes, marriage is not important to human survival....or more exactly, a particular marriage is not. One can (and usually will) marry again with little difficulty and be quite content (assuming one has learned relationship truths and skills). Kids will survive and prosper as well. There is far to much pathos attached to this stuff, in the overall scheme of life (and disasters) divorce is pretty mundance, and routine to boot....it is something we are well equipped psychologically to deal with successfully, if we choose too. I am just stating a fact, there should be no emotion attached to this position. If this were not true, then the death of a spouse would be just as traumatic (as in destroy ones life), but it is not. You grieve, and move on, in a sense that is what life is about, losing things, and moving on, until the final loss, our life.<p>Folks (and you I assume here) focus on the grief associated with the loss of a relationship (divorce) and elevate it to a "destruction" type experience, what justification is there to support this? I know people (you too I am sure) who equate losing a pet to the loss of a child, or spouse.... this is no doubt real to them, but it is ridiculous, and IMO is obsessive type behaviour. I am a realist estes, a pragmatic person, even in my own um....... angst, and emotional agony, part of me still recognizes this will pass, is a form of self-pity, and my life is not that important. As to marriage, it is a roll of the dice, you may get emotional hurt, badly, but you don't suffer any real damage, not by any realistic measureable standard, it is all in our heads. I could go on to talk about emotions, and such in evolutionary terms, genetic terms, and such, but would serve no purpose. Just rest easy in that I recognize people feel pain, and if I am dealing with a specific circumstance, and particular emotional distress I apply a different approach, a more supportive, touchy feely appropach....but I will never be a party to agreeing with someone their life is over, that is not helping them at all. <p>IMO marriage itself is of little import, and is worshiped way too much....what I am interested in is emotional health of people, and I cannot see any way a marriage without enthusiastic participation of both parties is of much benefit..how about you? So the whole effort of "making" the ws see the error of their ways stinks to me, adults should find their own center, make their own freewill choice, without coercion, manipulation of any kind, otherwise is meaningless....would you agree? That means if your spouse says they want to go, you just let em go, and move on, why would you want someone you talk/coerce/manipulate/guilt into being with you? One of the things that offends me the most is other people, extended family and such, dictating to a spouse (who wants to leave a marriage) what is acceptable or not, who they can love or not. Talk about pressure and coercion...sheesh. Coercion abounds, it is everywhere, huge efforts are made to bind a spouse anyway one can into staying in a marriage, I often wonder why. I wouldn't make any effort at all to keep a wife, if she wants to go, then go...but I guess I have a different view of intimacy....I don't want to own anyone, or be settled for....would rather be alone. In my case, I believe my w settled, I have always known this, and it is not ok.... to many here that makes me a villian, why I do not know. I also deeply resent the notion that I am too stupid to understand my own feelings and what I want (as some feel about ws).....but just to be fair and such, I have revisited all this stuff, analyzed it to death (as we do here) to find the fundamental psychological truths. I cannot help what I "feel" (that is the beauty and agony of feelings) and I have no intention of burying them and putting on the happy face to satisfy folks, feelings are vitally important to pur success as and happiness, only a fool would ignore them (and that is what duty/vows require, ignoring feelings and living by rules alone). I intend to live my life honestly, MB helped save my life, I finally had license to be radically honest, and frankly I love it.<p>what made you sick exactly anyways? Was it a misunderstanding of what I said? All I am doing is being honest here, and in my marriage, as harleys require, yet I get chastisted for it all the time...go figure. I sometimes wonder if folks think I am secretly really in-love with my w, and am just torturing her for sadistic pleasure, why I would do this escapes me.....I am not torturing her, she can leave anytime, I am just doing my best to be sure I know my own mind, what more can anyone expect? I offered to divorce her as soon as I realized what my actions pretty much ended what little there was left of the marriage. She said no, I am not making her do any of this, is her choice (as is mine). There are 3 outcomes, she will take action, I will take action, or we will decide on a course of action together...why is the ws on trial for being the decider? Anyways, I digress, some of this was not about your question, I am rambling some, and just thinking outloud.

#966402 12/28/01 11:02 PM
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My opinion being the BS, is that the WS sits on the fence, uses the bs to get what they want, and leaves saying goodbye its been nice. Fend for yourself. The BS does their job Plan A WS plays the field, and who loses the BS. In my case, my WSH played the I'm so discumbuberated, etc. I am trying and still it is not what I would like. My EN are not being met according to my EN questionaire. Seems that the WS had their fun with the OP and stay in their present marriage for their convenience until they finally have decided and then leave. In the meantime they should plan B, which I am seriously thinking about doing. Feel the need to talk to a lawyer, about my rights in this state. Talked to H about getting a job in the last few days, after getting over the upcoming death of my father. H at one time said no, but now he says not no, but what would you do? I feel he wants me to get totally independent and that gives him the right to leave without feeling guilty. Seems he doesn't feel guilty and remorse about his Physical Affair. Has never expressed it to me or to this board. Had an argument with H just this morning. He wanted me to do something in the hosopital that I felt was wrong and I said I can't do it, we were talking on the phone and he hung up and was rude. I made the phone call back a few minutes later and he apologized. Controlling is not a good thing, and I feel the WS control big time, I am experiencing a lot of control by my H. Yes, the WS plays around with the BS, plays and knows that they are winning, why don't they leave? Why would someone give up getting things they need done, having the grass greener on the other side of the fence, and having had their fun with the OP give all this up? Like my H says, there is only one affair per marriage. I don't feel that way, why did he get to have fun, spend lots of money on the other woman, she is living scot free, no loss of money, no hardship on her family, etc. She told my H she is not going to tell her H and family that she and my H had an EA/PA. So she continues on with life like nothing has happened. She is a classic user, controller, and manipulater plus she not only did this to my family but another one earlier in her marriage. My H fell for her, and here I am watching him straddle the fence on what to do. Life sucks big time, why do you think depression is so rampid with these people sitting and having their cake and eating it? I have expressed to my H that I am looking at guys. In fact, this guy (nurse) at the hospital gave me a big hug today, it felt good. I didn't have to ask for it, he said give me a hug, for telling him he was young looking. It made me feel really good inside, and I said, that is what I like. Unasked hugs, positive comments, and a real honest to goodness statement from a man. Being a WS is much more in control than the BS. BS sit and wait, but there is a limit to our wait. My limit is coming up, and I feel sad about it, but I am a loving kind woman, and their will be someone I can live with who will love me for me. I will never marry again, live in sin, just like you people stated to me, just ask God for forgiveness. And keep asking God for forgiveness. I wonder if my H has actually asked God for forgiveness? He feels his affair was justified. So that is why I am not sure he is marriage material. Look at having our assignments done for Steve Harley. My was turned in 2 weeks ago, I don't feel H has turned his in yet. He has time to type here, our marriage I guess takes the backseat. This is what I mean, the WS sits sits sits sits sits sits till one day the fence is imbedded in his hindend and it is too late.

#966403 12/28/01 11:46 PM
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:
<strong>The bs can end it any time they choose, by plan b/d, just like the ws can end it anytime by reconcilliatio(with protection)/or divorce. Frankly I see no functional difference in the 2 positions, each is voluntary and one cannot exist without the other....why is this a big deal? Correct me if I am missing something here, but can't a bs knock the ws off the fence anytime they so choose? </strong><hr></blockquote><p>
SNL, the BS's already know what they want (to keep the marriage intact), and it is the WS's who fence-sit while they decide what they want. This is the fundamental difference between the two. <p>I am not trying to argue as to who is a "better" person, or who is the victim, etc. All I am curious about in this thread is why so many WS's blame the BS's for wanting to save their marriages while they (the WS's) want the option of being "confused" and "undecided".<p>BTW, the BS cannot knock the WS off the fence. Once the WS is on the fence, the only choice the BS has is to either sit by the fence and wait it out (very painful, especially if the WS continues the affair during this time), or the BS can choose to walk away from the fence in defeat. But in no case can the BS make the WS choose the marriage or the OP. That is why the BS's feel so powerless. If you think about it, despite all your references to the pressure from others to keep a marriage intact, the fact remains that the legal system allows one person to end the marriage even if the other person objects, and does not allow the reverse. So by definition, the so-called freedom of choice does not apply equally to the BS's and the WS's. The WS's can do what they want, while the BS's can only hope for their desired outcome. <p>Anyway, after all this banter, I still don't get it, I guess. Why can't the WS's decide what they want? And why do they blame the BS's for wanting to save the marriage? I think for most BS's, the most painful part is not the affair, nor the divorce (if it comes to that). If you read the D/D board, the worst part is almost always the uncertainty and the waiting, the kind that fence-sitting WS's create due to their "confusion".<p>AGG

#966404 12/29/01 12:00 AM
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AGoodGuy,<p>I've been pouring over SnL's post, trying to find actual answers to your original question. I think I have the Cliff's Notes version here:<p>Here's what he wants: "You let em go, no guilt, no hurt feelings, no woe is me, no accusations of fog, no complaints about vows, no nothing." Doesn't want that "pound of flesh" extracted. Consequences for actions are a real bear! WS's are generally already proficient conflict and consequence avoiders, but once the affair is out of the bag, they are in a position where they will feel some sort of pain no matter what they decide to do...it's their own fault, but that's a responsibility issue and they've already flunked that course, obviously. So they freeze. They hop on the fence and sit there because they don't want to deal with the choice. <p>Now, the fact that they have to make such a painful decision is, well, painful--pain bad. The fact that they have all this messy pain is very distressing and this pain must be deflected somehow. So the betrayed spouse trying to save the marriage or demanding a decision becomes a "manipulator" and "disrespectful". The "selfishness" of the betrayed spouse in being angry and hurt and demanding action justifies the selfishness of the infidel in cheating and fence-sitting. <p>I'm picking on SnL a bit--he does make some good points here and there. But regardless of any of his elaborately constructed self-justifying paradigms, the answer to the original question (basically, why did they have to lie and cheat and then sit on the fence and pout rather than end the marriage with some semblence of honor?) boils down to: avoid pain, avoid conflict,avoid responsibility, avoid the hard choices. It's messy and hard to end a marriage. Avoid the pain, get some pleasure=have an affair. And when the WS is caught, and it becomes impossible to avoid these things, freeze, deflect the blame, force somebody else to make the hard choice for you so you can avoid the pain of being the bad person and the pain of hard decisions. <p>And this, I believe, is why SnL remains where he is, neither committing to his marriage, nor ending it, but wonderfully proficient at explaining all kinds of reasons why.

#966405 12/29/01 12:01 AM
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((((((((((((thinker))))))))))))<p>While I often think that your H has some very good and very interesting things to say, I have to agree with your assessment that he is fence sitting.<p>Often I agree wholeheartedly with things he says to other people....and yet....when he talks about himself and you, its very clear that he's twisting and turning every bit of logic or philosophical/psychological thought into something that supports what he is doing.<p>What I truely think, especially after reading his comments above, is that snl is very much looking for you to make the decision to end the marriage to avoid taking responsiblity.<p>And you know what? I was a problem controller in my past marriage. But gee, imagine this, my H is in many ways worse than I ever was...yet he is the one who has always complained the loudest! <p>The fact of the matter is that the WS should be taking responsibilty by choosing to leave before moving on to someone else. I have, as have you and many of us BS's, been attracted to other people that seemed to be a better "fit" than our spouses...and yet choose to stay committed to our promises and obligations. It takes grit and courage to make that choice. <p>The WS often does behave cruelly...trying to keep the BS in the marriage, making hints and promises that keep the BS from exacting consequences on the WS.<p>They take the path of least resistance...and will do anything to get everyone around them to continue providing a comfortable environment for their unacceptable behavior.<p>They are addicts. Its no different than an alcoholic addiction.<p>If the WS truely wanted out - they'd leave, file, and carry on with their lives. But they don't.<p>My H left and told me our marriage was over. And yet he didn't file. Supposedly he didn't have money. His OW was begging him to file...yet he didn't.<p>6 months later, he bought himself a new car with some extra money, instead of filing. A month later he bought ME my car off of lease instead of filing. 3 months later - I decided that I had had enough, and I filed.<p>And yet he begged me to drop the divorce - all the while his OW (the woman that he still calls magnificant, and wishes he had met without impediment) was planning our divorce, without his apparent cooperation.<p>He told me he choose to reconcile. And then kept lying and sneaking around and dating and Steve Harley told me to do Plan Divorce a second time.<p>So I did. And my H got on his knees and said, I want you, not OW.<p>And yet he ran right back to her. And kept coming around to me....<p>I didn't drop the divorce the second time until I had proof positive that it was a real choice this time.<p>But gee, he was fence sitting for 18 months.<p>Now, after that first year, I was happily getting on with my life and looking forward to being free.<p>It wasn't until real consequences were looming (our first court date) that he really hopped off that fence.<p>Except in the first couple of months after discovery, I was NOT one of those BS's who used plan A to manipulate and abuse and cling to my H. I used it to set him free.<p>EVERYTIME that I made a decision that didn't give him his cake - he came running.<p>I'm not saying that you should divorce snl to get his attention...<p>I'm just pointing out that to many of us who've been around the block a few times with WSs and affairs and divorces all recognize that snl is clearly on the fence. I'd have to say though, it sounds like he wants to avoid responsiblity for deciding which side he's going to land on.<p>And I have little respect for that kind of attitude.<p>I can hear your pain, and its clear that you do love your H very much. But I'd agree, time for plan B, and even D, if Steve agrees.<p>((((((hugs)))))))

#966406 12/29/01 12:39 AM
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In response to snl:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>The bs can end it any time they choose, by plan b/d, just like the ws can end it anytime by reconcilliatio(with protection)/or divorce. Frankly I see no functional difference in the 2 positions, each is voluntary and one cannot exist without the other....why is this a big deal? Correct me if I am missing something here, <hr></blockquote><p>No correction, snl, what you see or do not see is as a big deal is not for me to say. The reality is that there is a huge difference. To me the big deal is that the BS is in the position that he/she is in because of a betrayal of intimate trust by the WS. Given the choice, BS would never choose to be in this position. The WS did choose for things to be this way, because he/she could have ended the marriage at any time. All they have to do is file. The BS can't stop them. To say that the BS position is voluntary is to liken their situation to that of a grievously wounded person who voluntarily chooses to struggle to stay alive or who voluntarily chooses to die. The WS's voluntary position is likened to someone who assaults another then voluntarily chooses to try to patch that person up or to kill him. Functional difference or not, these is a huge moral difference.<p>That fence-sitting is:
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>... a way for a bs (and that point of bias) to diminish the efforts of the ws to resolve the marriage <hr></blockquote><p>What about the WS having the courage to make the decision BEFORE adding insult to injury by prolonging the announcement of how he/she intends to "resolve" (what a deceptively benign sounding euphemism) the marriage?<p>
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>the bs clings and tries to keep the marriage going, the ws fencesits and tries to end the marriage <hr></blockquote><p>This is an equality? "tries to keep the marriage going" = "tries to end the marriage"? What is this about "tries" to end the marriage. You do or you don't. There is nothing the BS can do to prevent it. If the WS does not file, it is because that is his/her choice. The BS has no legal way to stop it. IMO, the WS avoids making a decision because he/she hasn't figured out the action that would benefit him/her the most.<p>
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I don't want to appear heartless here to a board populated by bs, and the pain of a relationship ending, but in the final analysis, we all choose our poison, so what purpose is served crying about being a victim? <hr></blockquote><p>I reject the generalization that we all choose our own poison. What does that mean? If you are saying, "Don't complain about what you allow to happen." then I agree. If you are saying the BS chose to be betrayed, no way!<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>what made you sick exactly anyways? <hr></blockquote><p>Well, snl, the thing that makes me sick - and I really do mean the cramp in the stomach, gut-wrenching nausea feeling - is that your statement
makes me relive how absolutely terrible it HAS BEEN/STILL IS for my family to go through just such a thing. To hear someone proclaim the opinion that "..it is not so terrible" to a family for whom it most definitely IS terrible opens emotional wounds that are very real. It shows an absolute lack of understanding of, or refusal to accept, reality. I take back my statement about your telling me that you really don't believe that telling someone you do not want to be married to them is not so terrible. I realize that you DO believe it. snl, your belief is not reality. Take it from someone who has felt how terrible it is.<p>
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I also deeply resent the notion that I am too stupid to understand my own feelings and what I want (as some feel about ws)..... <hr></blockquote>
and
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I am just doing my best to be sure I know my own mind, what more can anyone expect? <hr></blockquote><p>May I respectfully ask why, if you understand your own feelings and what you want, it is taking so long for you to know your own mind? It seems like your W has known what she wants all along.<p>No philosophizing here, snl, just glaring reality. What the WS does to the BS is "so terrible." Promise.<p>Estes

#966407 12/29/01 01:35 AM
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AGG,<p>You have gotten some very thoughtful responses. You can probably see a repetition of opinion in the replies.<p>After 10 sad months of taking a crash course in
"How to Survive an Affair," I honestly think I do understand the mindset of the WS. From either side of the question, "I don't get it." or "I finally get it.," the issue (in my experience) remains one of a selfish, disrespectful person who cannot muster the courage to do the right thing before people are terribly hurt. No judgment or disrespect to WS intended. No matter the reasons for the selfishness and disrespect, they cannot negate the damage or justify the behavior. <p>The reason that WS behavior is so hard to "get" is that an adulterer's thinking defies conventional morality and respect for others (for whatever reason). It requires a willingness to lie and deceive and to reject widely accepted standards of right and wrong. Most people choose not to live that way, so they don't "get it" until forced by circumstances to understand it. <p>The usefulness of MB lies in the hope that BS learn to make improvements in themselves while avoiding the conclusion that an A automatically means divorce. The best outcome, of course, from the MB point of view, is a recommitment by both spouses to the M with both being more attentive to each others' EN.<p>I hope that patience, introspection, and understanding result in the healing of your marriage.<p>Estes<p>BTW, AGG, I discovered MB while trying to come to grips with the effect that my DIL's A was having on my family. There is wonderful insight here and much help in learning about ourselves and others.<p>[ December 29, 2001: Message edited by: Estes49 ]</p>

#966408 12/29/01 09:00 AM
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agg....SNL, the BS's already know what they want (to keep the marriage intact), and it is the WS's who fence-sit while they decide what they want. This is the fundamental difference between the two. <p>snl....You have described the different positions, you have not identified the fundamental difference. I say again, there is no fundamental difference, both have exactly the same control and options over their lives. What you are doing (and the bs typically do) is try to define one position as morally, ethically, superior, you can't do that, it is a disrespectful judgement.... Now if somehow the act of fencesitting constrained the bs against their will, you would have a valid point. The bs is acting totally voluntarily....my point is this is human relations, it is the nature of how humans choose when their is conflict, there is always a waiter, and always a fence sitter, makes no difference who is playing what role, it is a system, and requires both to function......you CANNOT have a fence sitter without a waiter....do you understand? Leave all the emotions out of this agg, the bs emotions are no more important that the ws, nor are they morally superior, those are all disrespectful judgements, and if allowed diminish the human value of the ws. There is an absolute equality of power, the bs chooses to participate, and describing chastising the ws for fence sitting is coercive, and manipulative. The bs is placing the marital decision on the ws. You (et al) say no no, the bs has decided, that is misleading. The bs has not decided, they have only said what they want the marriage (and are manouvreing to make that happen), they have not taken responsibility for ending the marriage too, they abdicated that to the ws, who is not ready to decide, so gets accused of sitting on the fence. On this board we have a few bs with ws who have "decided" but the bs is the one with doubts, and not fully committed.....are they also sitting on the fence? Sem and KS were going a few rounds a while back, but no one accused sem of sitting on the fence. We have another poster yesterday whose ws says they are committed, but she is asking for time (and is not surer).... is she sitting on the fence? The point is this is a dance, it is the dance of an uncommitted marriage and makes no difference who is on the fence, nor is being on the fence a bad thing, it is a human thing.....the power is equal (to leave or stay) for both, and I find little merit in the bs lament about fence-sitting.....what I am curious about is why the bs don't take action and end the marriage.....it is rude to say you want the marriage and then chastise the fence-sitter for continuing to contemplate your request.....ya know? You choose your own agony, if you can't stand the wait, end the marriage.... correct?<p>DISCLAIMER.....Yes, I know people have all these awful feelings, so do I...that is not the point, the logic is irrefutable, and IMO keeping ones head buried in the emotional sand is not helpful. I as a ws find my w complaints about this issue highly manipulative, and push me away...something you bs might keep in mind. I find her thinly disguised notion that her feelings are more important than mine very discouraging, and the notion I am a defective human being cause I am not happy with her rendition of how I should live and feel disturbing. Personally I find many of the bs here very judgemental, and is not to surprising to me their spouses wandered.<p>agg..I am not trying to argue as to who is a "better" person, or who is the victim, etc. All I am curious about in this thread is why so many WS's blame the BS's for wanting to save their marriages while they (the WS's) want the option of being "confused" and "undecided".<p>snl...I am not so sure anyone is blaming the bs (at least no more than the bs is blaming the ws for fencesitting)...it is more a venting of frustratrion, cause we all want stability in our lives. The bs has "made" their decision, now they don't want to wait for the ws to make it, the same thing we all do when we are the "first" in making a choice and must now wait for others. Nobody wants the option of being confused and undecided, is just life, you ARE condfused and undecided, and simply are being honest about it.<p>
[ December 29, 2001: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]<p>[ December 29, 2001: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]<p>[ December 29, 2001: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>

#966409 12/29/01 11:10 AM
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With some trepidation I continue this estes, I find you a thoughtful person who thinks about this stuff too, even if we may be on different sides of understanding how life works, and I need polite input (whether agree or not) as I try to figure out my life...anyways<p>estes... The bs can end it any time they choose, by plan b/d, just like the ws can end it anytime by reconcilliatio(with protection)/or divorce. Frankly I see no functional difference in the 2 positions, each is voluntary and one cannot exist without the other....why is this a big deal? Correct me if I am missing something here, <p>estes.. The reality is that there is a huge difference. To me the big deal is that the BS is in the position that he/she is in because of a betrayal of intimate trust by the WS. <p>snl...I think what I am trying to say estes is the betrayal makes no difference, it is what people do, married or not, we (humans) do not formally give notice and go from one person to another, there is usually overlap. The primary reason relationships end (of all kinds) is one party thinks they will be better with someone else, and most often that is triggerd by interaction with op...would you agree? To me, complaining about this, or making a big deal out of it is pointless, it is what humans do, but I am a rational person, my primary worldview is reality based, not wishful thinking based, I know, I have always known, I cannot be sure of anyone, so I don't expect to be....it puzzles me that others try to live with that expectation...live with it to the point they claim they are destroyed when the inevitable (statisitically speaking) happens. Interestingly you have exactly these same emotions and complaints when non-married long-term relationships fail. I broke up with my wife while we were dating (after we had talked and planned marriage), you would have thought the world was ending, she threatened suicide, make vows to "change", all kinds of promises, etc. etc.....unfortunately I believed her and married her (felt guilty, and like I owed her)...she changed nothing.<p>estes...Given the choice, BS would never choose to be in this position. <p>snl...And a ws would? Baloney, I would RATHER be a bs, being a ws is a hell in itself. But there is no purpose served in beating myself up, feeling guilty and unworthy, I am a good person, I know why this happened, it will not happen again (a life lesson), and though it was my choice, it most assuredly was nurtured by a highly dysfunctional marriage, and an emotionally neglectful/distant spouse.<p>estes...The WS did choose for things to be this way, because he/she could have ended the marriage at any time.<p>snl...And so could the bs. Why doesn't the bs recognize the crappy marriage and end it too. My w tortured me for years with how inadequate and useless I was, and how she couldn't wait to divorce me...why didn't she just do it? I think little purpose is served by designating someone as the "responsible" party who should have ended the marriage before someone got hurt. This BS fog, and it is a lot of crap, human beings are not that good at relationships, they are very messy things, and people get hurt all the time. It is a bit smug and self-serving in my ws opinion for bs to assume the mantle of woe is me, plenty of ws were in pretty serious woe also at the hands of the poor betrayed bs. I personally don't think an affair means much of anything at all, in the context of all the marital "stuff" that may have proceeded it (obviously can vary, some bs are pretty much innocent and just made the mistake to marry a sociopathic personality). An affair is just a wake-up call, albeit a harsh one, but nothing worth losing your sanity or life over, the bs will survive, just fine, if they want to.... <p>esres...All they have to do is file. The BS can't stop them. To say that the BS position is voluntary is to liken their situation to that of a grievously wounded person who voluntarily chooses to struggle to stay alive or who voluntarily chooses to die. <p>snl...More inappropriate imagery. The bs is not wounded, is not injured, is just facing the fact another human beings actions are not what they would like. Emotions are real, you feel a kind of "pain" (I know been there, done that, and I am not going to get into a my pain is worse than your pain argument, pain is pain, makes no difference where it came from), the pain is primarily about fear, and safety, your life is disrupted, and humans experience that as anxiety, grief etc, all very normal stuff. Why should the bs stay estes? They can file too, but they choose not too, therefore they accept the situation voluntarily....so it is a bit hypocritical to then complain about the ws not taking action....you know they haven't taken action...right?<p>estes...The WS's voluntary position is likened to someone who assaults another then voluntarily chooses to try to patch that person up or to kill him. Functional difference or not, these is a huge moral difference.<p>snl...At least you understand there is no functional difference, and that is all that counts. Morality is in the eye of the beholder, and there will never be consensus on it, but surely you don't think bs are pure and innocent? So now what, we argue whose misbehaviour is worse? To what end, to what standard, and what do we do with it? This is reality estes, this is what people do in relationships, every effort by a bs to gain "position" over the ws is about manipulation, and trying to get their selfish desire, the marriage they want to that person. In the majority of the rhetoric I read here, there is no concern whatsoever for whether the marriage is good for the ws, the focus is on getting them back into it anyway they can, we know that, and we resist the manipulation, because that is what humans do, none of us like to be manipulated. IMO more marriages would be restored if an affair meant instant divorce, and the people could not remarry for at least one year. That clarifies the relationship in no uncertain terms and sets both people free form all this posturing, hurt feelings, fence sitting et al ad nauseum....no more game playing, people date or they don't and remarry or they don't. There is something um......... disquieting about the pressure placed on a ws to stay married, let em go, they will be back (and you will accept them) if they are worthy.<p>
... a way for a bs (and that point of bias) to diminish the efforts of the ws to resolve the marriage <p>estes...What about the WS having the courage to make the decision BEFORE adding insult to injury by prolonging the announcement of how he/she intends to "resolve" (what a deceptively benign sounding euphemism) the marriage?<p>snl....Let me add that I am not defending fencesitting, I am simply explaining the psychological realites. Just like a bs can be a clingy needy individual who wants the marriage for their benefit, so can a ws be a user, who if allowed will try to be a cake eater. I think both parties have obligations, and the fence sitter darn well better be honestly working to a goal of making a decision, oft times they are not, and should be properly chastised for it. But if so, a bs has the responsibility too (as a member of this dysfunctional union) to take action, and file for divorce too, cause this is not how marriage should work....right? If not, why does the bs not have an obligation to end a dysfunctional marriage? But of course they do, usually, in their own time, when they get off their own fence, a different fence, but then a fence is a fence isn't it.<p>(snl)the bs clings and tries to keep the marriage going, the ws fencesits and tries to end the marriage <p>estes...This is an equality? "tries to keep the marriage going" = "tries to end the marriage"?<p>snl...Absolutely. The equality is one of choice. The bs is choosing to try and make it work. The ws may also choose, or they may not, that the bs has chosen and is now waiting places no obligation on the ws to decide now or ever, any more than the bs had to decide now or ever. The thinkly veiled powerplay here is that the ws should accomodate the bs need, their is no need to accomodate the bs at all....IMO the only requirement for either party is to be honest, and civil. I told my wife after discovery, when she insisted on a committment, I was not going to make one until I was sure what I wanted, that it had to be about me, not her, and the same for her, anything else would not work, and be a dishonest base for the marriage. That she wants the marriage is irrelevant, and cannot impact me at all, else I am just being manipulated, or avoiding conflict. If she wants my honest answer, then she has to wait for it....or course that may mean she assesses I am not marriage material, or am being dishonest, or simply is just unwilling to wait any longer, and withdraws her committment, maybe forever, that is the risk I take. It is very equal estes, both spouses have total control over THEIR choice, and no control over the others choice. NEITHER can choose the marriage, cause marriage is not a unilateral choice, it is the outcome of a mutual choice. The bs/fencesitting argument seeks to make it a bs choice, and the ws is thwarting it, that is deceptive, the marriage has not happened yet, the bs cannot choose it, they can only choose to wait and see what happens.<p>estres...What is this about "tries" to end the marriage. You do or you don't. There is nothing the BS can do to prevent it. <p>snl...This more phoney bs arguments. People are not machines, (as the bs point out so often re feelings), a ws (or anyone in a marriage) does not just wake up one day, throw a switch and voila divorced. Relationships come apart very messily, usually, it just seems to be how humans do things, and hold ws to a higher standard, then judgeing them is grossly unfair. Tries to end, means trying to be sure it should end, ending it fairly, ending it amicably, these things take effort, and the bs usually is not very cooperative....this often draws out the process, sometimes for years with false recoveries, and such. If 2 people would just look at each other, agree this is not going to work, accept they will be unhappy for awhile (normal) amicably reach all the necessary agreements, and peacefully go their seperate ways, divorce would be a lot less traumatic....but as we all know, that is not what happens, people do not generally let someone go without a lot of turmoil, anger, maniopulation, I really do think humans have a dark side and want to own each other in some ways (that is what vows are all about....you PROMISED, you OWE me, a heck of a way to love someone don't ya think?).<p>estes... IMO, the WS avoids making a decision because he/she hasn't figured out the action that would benefit him/her the most.<p>snl...And a bs doesn't act the same way? Don't they want the marriage cause that benefits him/her the most? and those bs who file for divorce, aren't they doing what is best for them....come on estes, your bias shows all through this, you default to the bs position, and make that the focus on what is right or wrong....all this bs/ws is silly, people are people, and both ws and bs act excactly the same way, each does what they think is best for them. So the "debate" will go on forever, and people will never "understand" each other. That is why I appear insensitive sometimes, this cannot be worked out emotionally....it is a mental health issue, the only decision to reach is are two people good for each other, and if no, what to do about it. <p>
(snl).I don't want to appear heartless here to a board populated by bs, and the pain of a relationship ending, but in the final analysis, we all choose our poison, so what purpose is served crying about being a victim? <p>estes..I reject the generalization that we all choose our own poison. What does that mean? If you are saying, "Don't complain about what you allow to happen." then I agree. If you are saying the BS chose to be betrayed, no way!<p>snl...Yes the bs accepted the possibility of betrayal, as do we all, if we marry someone. It comes with the territory. You want absolute gaurantees? Don't marry. Again estes, I deal in reality, I knew when I married I was investing enormous life assets with no gaurantees, how about you? So while that does not mean one will not experience pain, it does mean one cannot claim they didn't know they might be betrayed, in that sense, it is not a surprise. Likewise every time I get in my car, I know I may never come home, some drunk, or inattentive, or unskilled, or angry, or whatever driver may kill me, but I accept the risk, and if it happens I am not gonna lose any sleep over it...ya know? Relationships end, you try to be as responsible as you can about it, but they do end, and oft times not in a "happy" way...so what do we do about it ested? Crucify the ws...why? To what end? Is just life, is far better to learn from the experience then to be destroyed by it methinks, and that is all a matter of attitude.<p>estes...Well, snl, the thing that makes me sick - and I really do mean the cramp in the stomach, gut-wrenching nausea feeling - is that your statement makes me relive how absolutely terrible it HAS BEEN/STILL IS for my family to go through just such a thing. <p>snl...ok, I know, but that is a specific circumstance, does not even always apply (people are not always unhappy at all when a spouse wants a divorce, some divorces are very amicable, and have minimal emotional discomfort...right?), and I was making a general statement about reality, it is not terrible, cause we do go on, and most often have better lives, so where is the terrible part? In reality, not emotionally?<p>estes...To hear someone proclaim the opinion that "..it is not so terrible" to a family for whom it most definitely IS terrible opens emotional wounds that are very real. <p>snl...So we just all go about validating that ones life is over, you are forever damaged, will never recover? How is that helpful? And I made it clear, when someone is hurting and one is being sympathetic, this is NOT the time to say such things, but never should you validate someones notion they will not recover either...so I would never agree it is terrible, I would only acknowledge they "feel" terrible....do you really disagree with this estes, or am I triggering your own emotional responses to your circumstances, and you are bringing them into this pragmatic discussion? Do you have trouble seperateing the real from the emotional? (we all do, but discipline can allow us to be objective about emotional issues). There is no real arguyment estes, it is not terrible, life goes on, the feeling feel terrible, but so do lots of feelings. I have no doubt in my mind we could find someone who "feels" absolutely terrible about some event in their life, and you would note it is not really terrible for them, that is the nature of feelings, they are often at odds with reality.<p>estes...It shows an absolute lack of understanding of, or refusal to accept, reality. I take back my statement about your telling me that you really don't believe that telling someone you do not want to be married to them is not so terrible. I realize that you DO believe it. snl, your belief is not reality. Take it from someone who has felt how terrible it is.<p>snl....Hmmm.... ok, what is the alternative estes, not telling someone you don't want to be married to them, and concealing that for a lifetime.....you tell me, which would you prefer? The issue is radical honesty, and it is never terrible, it is how we should live....you disagree?<p>In my world, the worst thing someone good do to me is not tell me they do not want to be married to me, that would be what is terrible, cause they concealed the truth from me, and made a lie of my life. Telling someone you do not want to be married to them hurts, I don't deny that, and how you tell them may hurt more one way than another (although I spect it really makes little differenct if you tell em by way of an affair, or just file divorce papers, or take em to lunch and tell em as nice as you can you no longer want to be married.....do you really think the pain is gonna be much different no matter how this happens estes?). You tell me estes, how do you tell someone you no longer want to be married to them without it being "terrible"..... so if it always is terrible, then it becomes part of life, part of being human, so why treat it as something horrible? The only way to eliminate it is to eliminate relationships, not take the risk. The only way to avoid a traffic accident is never drive, is nonsensical estes.<p>(snl)...I also deeply resent the notion that I am too stupid to understand my own feelings and what I want (as some feel about ws)..... <p>I am just doing my best to be sure I know my own mind, what more can anyone expect? <p>estes...May I respectfully ask why, if you understand your own feelings and what you want, it is taking so long for you to know your own mind? <p>snl...So long? It took almost 30 years to get to this point, how long should it take me to try and be sure I understand all of this? The issue is not really time, it is intent, am I doing the work, or not? And the answer is, yes I am, and it will take as long as it takes, what more can I say? Shouldn't I do what I think best, or should I do what you, or MB, or my wife, or whoever tells me I should? And when I get chastised for taking to long, I wonder by what right does anyone have to tell me how long I should take. Is their a rule somewhere about this I am breaking estes? <p>estes...It seems like your W has known what she wants all along.<p>snl...My wife has spent our entire married life telling me regularly she wanted a divorce, needless to say her credibility with me is nil. The fact that she blows all that off as just being upset with me and now (only after I focus on someone else) has she realized how much she loves me, is a bunch of bullshi*t. I don't believe her at all. I do think she knows what she wants though, and that is security, and I can understand that, don't fault her for it...but that is not a marriage, and I can provide for all her needs as an ex-spouse. I do not dislike her, care about her alot, but we have serious fitting issues, and I stress her alot. Just wondering about all these things makes her LB all over the place, but it is who I am, I wonder, and think, and ponder....if she doesn't like that about me, if it stresses her, and she wants me to change it (and she does want me to change it) then Jospeh is lost, I cease to be, I become someone else, I don't want to, I like who I am.<p>No philosophizing here, snl, just glaring reality. What the WS does to the BS is "so terrible." Promise.

#966410 12/29/01 11:24 AM
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Provocative thread...<p>
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>You have described the different positions, you have not identified the fundamental difference. I say again, there is no fundamental difference, both have exactly the same control and options over their lives. What you are doing (and the bs typically do) is try to define one position as morally, ethically, superior, you can't do that, it is a disrespectful judgement..<hr></blockquote><p>The ethical element comes from the observation that one partner is misleading the other in a way that "most" would define as .. flawed. The bs is often not given accurate info about the intentions or considerations of the WS. The issue here is not about a disparity of options or control. It is about a hidden agenda; one which is often pursued without the knowledge of the partner. To me, this is where the selfish argument comes into play. The hidden agenda, at the expense of those who claim to care about you, is selfish, is disrespectful and offensive.<p>In fact, the ws often participates in a series of patterns( stonewalling, blaming, defensiveness, lying, lying,distancing, withdrawal) that by definition, will prevent the bs from addressing fundamental issues in a substantive manner. <p>What each partner is attempting to influence, or "control" then, is different. Look at the tools each partner will employ to further their cause. Isn't that indicitave of a particular mindset? How does society in general label these behaviours, the ones that most WS seem to embrace?<p>I appreciate snl's comments, I often "get" something from them, but I think certain critical considerations are minimized or dismissed. <p>Dan<p>[ December 29, 2001: Message edited by: Family Man ]</p>

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