Yes SNL sits and sits. I've read his posts, that he's figured it out. Why are you still here, tell us your plan and lets get the ball moving? He states I have been manipulative to him. Yeah I could go into this and that and tell you how he talks to the family. But why, name calling SNL!!!!!! SNL you are not afraid of hurting someone, not afraid of divorce, not afraid of telling your spouse you do not love them, not afraid of telling your spouse you do not want to be married to them, not afraid of doing the right thing, then go for it SNL. Yes the kids will be hurt, but you know, they will get over it in time. Just this morning I said lets quit. He is telling me that I haven't done enough. He feels it is not enough time. Tells me I shouldn't LB, told him he LB just by being on this computer so much. He LB and he says accept it. Why sit here, put this effort to something that is not going to happen. You have MADE UP YOUR MIND, be the strong one and divorce. I've been told that the WS will make things miserable, then the BS can't take it and they file for divorce. If you want me to get the lawyer I guess I will. But we all know you have made up your mind. You are playing a game, not a dance (you have never been one for dancing) (but you like games). Are you willing to knock me off the boardgame or are you just going to give me a tollrope? Until you say okay I am ready now? Why are you waiting, we are not moving along to a future of marriage. Why prolong the agony, why prolong doing things together, why prolong pretending to be husband and wife? You spiritually married your OW & you divorced me with your first sexual encounter with the OW, so lets make it legal? Be strong and do what you feel you need to do.<p>I am under a lot of stress, and this waiting game is making it harder to deal with anything. I just spent the morning helping mom take care of my dad. It was nice she gave me a break, dad had to poop at 5am. She called my brother to help. He was not good at changing diapers when his kids were little. So it challenged him. As it turned out, I fed dad breakfast this morning and we were getting him down to sleep, dad said he had to poop again. Mom and I got him on the pot, I am not that strong from arm injury. My brother walked in and dad was pooping. It took all 3 of us to get the task done. Dad needs to start taking morphine sublingual in am and pm. <p>Yes, thinker is about at the end of my rope. It is time to move on SNL, realize you made a decision a long time ago, and you are just prolonging the inevitable. You don't love me like a wife, only as a mother of our children. You have had the in-love, with your OW and I am not able to give you the in-love, fitting, bonding, one-flesh, sexual satisfaciton you need. You will find another to fulfill these needs or even go find the OW. Lets get real here, and get our lives in order. This is not healthy for either of us, or our children.<p>This is exactly what gets me upset. SNL protrays that I was the one who was the bad guy in the marriage. He does not explain all that he did. Again, it is the name calling that is so immature for a 51 year old man. Tell me tonight, Joseph, I will be prepared for your statement that you want to tell me you don't want to be married to me. I am not stupid, I will not cry, I will get the lawyer after my fathers destiny of death in 2-4 weeks. Lets get serious with each other and end this hell. You say bulls**t about me. Well, find another woman who would put up with what I have for the last 30 years. You are not a saint SNL, you are who you are and we don't fit. Lets end this misery!!!!!!!!!!<p>[ December 29, 2001: Message edited by: thinker ]</p>

thinker and I are not having a good day, I prefer not to defend myself on-line with her, so you folks will have to make of this as you will. We had sorta agreed to stay out of each others hair, but she has a hard time with not reading my posts. I reslly don't completely understand why she responds to my efforts with anger, but she does, and I am not good with anger, it makes me clam up. In any event, maybe some good comes out of the bewildering (I am sure) contrasts when both people in conflict (as opposed to recovery) post here. I know I read her posts and wonder who the heck she is talking about sometimes, and likewise for her too. I am sorry you are upset thinker, I don't want you to be, and I am not playing games with you, I am just trying as best I can to work this out, be fair to you, and yet honest too.

snl and thinker,<p>Why don't you two get off of the computer, put two chairs out, get some coffee (or vodka) and TALK in person?<p>It HURTS to read your pain - BOTH OF YOU.

FM...The ethical element comes from the observation that one partner is misleading the other in a way that "most" would define as .. flawed. The bs is often not given accurate info about the intentions or considerations of the WS. The issue here is not about a disparity of options or control. It is about a hidden agenda; one which is often pursued without the knowledge of the partner. <p>snl...FM, I have no argument with this, but this is not the general case, and is not the definition of fence sitting. This is manipulation, and I would condemn it too. But still the bs has a choice, if they think the ws is not behaving responsibly, they plan b, and or file for divorce, this is not really all that complicated....<p>FM...To me, this is where the selfish argument comes into play. The hidden agenda, at the expense of those who claim to care about you, is selfish, is disrespectful and offensive.<p>snl...Absolutely, so why would a bs put up with it?<p>FM...In fact, the ws often participates in a series of patterns( stonewalling, blaming, defensiveness, lying, lying,distancing, withdrawal) that by definition, will prevent the bs from addressing fundamental issues in a substantive manner. <p>snl...This is a little different, and starts to get into he said she said, and disrespectful judgements, selfish demands etc. No one can tell another how to run their life, and a bs who says ok, I want to save the marriage, must accept (or reject by b/d) that their spouse is going to arrive at their own decision in their own way in their own time....how can it be otherwise? Typically the bs wants stuff to happen now, and with committment, and restorative behaviours....but the ws may not want to jump in, they may want to have time to see what changes the bs does, and whether it makes any real difference to the ws, also the ws may be struggleing with who they are, whether they are codependent, lots of confusing stuff.<p>FM....What each partner is attempting to influence, or "control" then, is different. Look at the tools each partner will employ to further their cause. Isn't that indicitave of a particular mindset? How does society in general label these behaviours, the ones that most WS seem to embrace?<p>snl...Society? What difference does that make? We all do what we want to do, don't you? The societal argument is trotted out to coerce someone into compliance, I think that is wrong. But I do understand the mindset, and we need rules, but not relationship rules, people should only give themself freely to another (least that is how I want to be chosen) never cause of any kind of coercion (family, kids, vows, promises, finances)....ultimately a life partner is only about one thing, do BOTH want to be intimate with each other above all else in life, pretty simple actually.....but when you introduce rules, and contract oriented focus it gets very very messy...now we are keeping score, who is doing what for who....this is not a problem when people are truly bonded.<p>FM...I appreciate snl's comments, I often "get" something from them, but I think certain critical considerations are minimized or dismissed<p>snl...Actually not so much minimized and dismissed, allthough it may seem that way sometime, more of where I am focused at the moment. It is impossible to cover everything in every post, I don't even try..... but I do have one fundamental theme, marriage is not important, people are, and my focus is always on the mental health of the individuals, not saving a marriage just to save it.

Just a couple of comments:<p>1. Snl,
You are exactly right in what you have said on this thread. Everyone has choices. In and out of marriage, we make them everyday. The only difference I can see is that in the case of an affair, the WS made a choice that the BS didn't get any input to. They, however, do have the choice of how to respond.
Choose the behavior, choose the consequences.<p>2. SNL,
Given your thoughts on marriage in general - it's failure rate, its tenuous place in society, the statement that it should be a renewable contract every few years (which, btw, it is a renewable contract daily - just get out if you choose). Anyway, given what you have said - do you think you would every marry again if you and Thinker divorce? I guess I am curious as to why? Why not just find your soulmate and make each other happy until one of you changes your mind and then each walk away with no shame, no regrets, no anger, no remorse? Sounds perfectly lovely, doesn't it?<p>3. Snl,
When do you have time to actually do any HVAC work?<p>4. Thinker,
You are not in a position to even think clearly or make coherent sentences given what you are going through with your daddy. Please just take care of yourself. Just you. You are the only one whose behavior you can impact and you are the only one who can impact your future. Take back control of your life. <p>As an aside, I think the 2 of you should switch screen names.

we do talk sheryl, but it usually does not go very well, is like we speak two different languages or something. I have been asking her repeatedly for months to stay away from relationship talks, cause they always go badly, but she can't, or won't.... The thing is, neither of us are bad evil people, we just do not do well married to each other..... if we keep it shallow, is ok, we care, and can function after a fashion, both are responsible and get stuff done (but have very different priorities sometimes)...we lived this way 24 years, growing ever farther apart, cause we do not share ourselves (fit very well), she feels like my mother (looking after me), and I feel like her father, protecting her, looking out for her....we are not, have never been intimate partners, never works, so we stay distant, is how we survived, and got kids raised. I don't know why, and that is what we are trying to work out, figure out, but it has to do with fit, we clash at too many levels...so what does one do? Just make it work? Then one has to ask the question why? I know it is painful to witness, it is painful to experience too, but this has to be worked out before we can go any further, we have gone as far as we can just "doing it". What do you do when 2 decent people should not have married each other, but did, care about each other, but never connected, may never connect...... Part of the trouble goes all the way back to dating, we became exclusive very young, and with very little relationship experience, and now are paying the price of poor decisions. We had a very troubled dating relationship, and never should have married till it was worked out, but we didn't have the tools, or knowledge of how screwed up we were. We have avoided dealing with the fundamental issues all our married lives, now we can't avoid them, and it is very very difficult.

opps<p>[ December 29, 2001: Message edited by: zorweb ]</p>

opps<p>[ December 29, 2001: Message edited by: zorweb ]</p>

SNL<p>Your basic take on BS's is downright disrespectful. For the most part BS's just to want know where they really stand. When the WS fence sites who knows what to believe.<p>This is exactly why I believe that Plan A should be for a very short time... a month at most. If the WS cannot recommit to the marriage in that time then it's on to Plan B and then Plan D. There is not reason anyone should be subjected to the disrespectful treatment of a spouse cheating, behind their back or out in the open, and a spouse saying the mean things that are said when they cannot make up their minds.<p>Most WS do not just come forward and tell the BS that they want out of the marriage. Instead they leave it to the BS to decipher their intent. And then the WS’s, like you, have the audacity to put the BS down. But that is what it is all about anyway is it not? The WS making themselves feel superior at the expense of the BS? Why do WS’s sneak around? Because they are being selfish and want both their spouse and their OP, and anything else they want at the expense of everyone else. All the fancy words the WS can use do not speak as loud at their actions.<p>My feeling is that if the WS does not recommit and realize the pain they have caused then send them on their way. Who needs it?

snl,<p>I really do appreciate the seriousness of your quandary and your quest for an appropriate solution. However, you seem to be thinking in circles, as evidenced by these quotes. <p>snl: <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>..maybe for the first time they are telling you the truth, they really just do not want to be married to you....it is not so terrible <hr></blockquote><p>and<p>snl: <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>You tell me estes, how do you tell someone you no longer want to be married to them without it being "terrible"..... so if it always is terrible, then it becomes part of life, part of being human, so why treat it as something horrible? <hr></blockquote><p>Something that is not so terrible is terrible?<p>
I empathize with yours and thinker's pain. I wish for you that things were different. I really do.<p>I believe that you have built this wall of words around yourself because you are afraid to make a choice that might prove to be wrong for you. It may be that it is less threatening to philosphize than to take action. <p>There are no quarantees. We think things through (which you certainly have [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] ) and in good conscience make the best decision we can. I would think that ethical decisions become more vexing for someone who believes that morality is relative, somewhat like trying to anchor your ship on a substrate that keeps shifting. But in the end, you do the best you can. I sincerely believe that you want to do that.<p>Wishing you peace of mind in your decision.
Estes<p>[ December 29, 2001: Message edited by: Estes49 ]</p>

z...Your basic take on BS's is downright disrespectful. For the most part BS's just want know where they really stand. When the WS fence sites who knows what to believe.<p>snl...Of course, and don't I regularly harp on radical honesty? In fact that is exactly what I do here, and with thinker....does anyone have the slightest doubt where I stand? But does that mean I have to move to someone elses agenda, time frame, or I am a terrible fence sitter? <p>z...This is exactly why I believe that Plan A should be for a very short time... a month at most. If the WS cannot recommit to the marriage in that time then it's on to Plan B and then Plan D. There is not reason anyone should be subjected to the disrecpectful treatment of a spouse cheating, behind their back or out in the open, and a spouse saying the mean things that are said when they cannot make up their minds.<p>snl....???????? You just stated my position, seems we agree, not sure why you find my observations re choices disrespectful. And I could check, but I don't think I said fence sitting includes cheating behind the bs back.

estes... you seem to be thinking in circles, as evidenced by these quotes. <p>snl: ..maybe for the first time they are telling you the truth, they really just do not want to be married to you....it is not so terrible <p>and<p>You tell me estes, how do you tell someone you no longer want to be married to them without it being "terrible"..... so if it always is terrible, then it becomes part of life, part of being human, so why treat it as something horrible? <p>Something that is not so terrible is terrible?<p>snl...Hmm, may have made my point a little obtuse. I was trying to get you to realize that if something is always so, it is not special. If the choice is between never telling the truth, because it will be "terrible" that is the greater injury. If you must tell the truth, it is not really terrible it is just the truth, and causes no permanent harm, only temporary discomfort, and that is part of life, so no justification to make it a special circumstance, there is nothing we can do to prevent it anyways, so why is it a concern? Does that make any more sense?<p>estes...I empathize with yours and thinker's pain. I wish for you that things were different. I really do.<p>snl...I know, me too.<p>estes....I believe that you have built this wall of words around yourself because you are afraid to make a choice that might prove to be wrong for you. It may be that it is less threatening to philosphize than to take action. <p>snl...Is a potential risk I am aware of, we can all take our coping mechanisms and use them to confound or paralyze us. I evaluate myself all the time (and subject myself to peer review here) to avoid that trap (hopefully). And of course, talking is less threatening than action [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] but I have no intention of doing this "forever" (if such a thing were possible). I THOROUGHLY research stuff (when I need too), and I do act sometimes very slowly, but I do so cause I do not like to retrace, and I rarely look back. It took me about 2 years (out of the 5 we dated) to accept I had to marry thinker, and I have never looked back, despite knowing fairly soon it was the wrong decision, for the wrong reasons. Instead I tried to make the best of it. Whether I stay or go (unless thinker makes some other choice on her own) I do not intend to look back and wonder....that means I have to be sure, and that takes time, this is difficult stuff.<p>estes...There are no quarantees. We think things through (which you certainly have ) and in good conscience make the best decision we can. I would think that ethical decisions become more vexing for someone who believes that morality is relative, somewhat like trying to anchor your ship on a substrate that keeps shifting. But in the end, you do the best you can. I sincerely believe that you want to do that.<p>snl...Thank-you, I am trying to do the best thing, and it hurts when people (including thinker) accuse me of deception etc. If thinker and I recover, I need to be able to look her in the eye, and with a clear conscience tell her I want to be married to her more than anything in life.... not that I settled for her cause she was willing to play nice with me, and we just make the best of things, and care for each other....or that I couldn't stand the pressure of making her unhappy, and being thought ill of by family and community....it is a heck of a place to be, adrift, confused, lonely, scared, guilty, no place to hide.....the only salvation is truth, radical honesty, and I thank God MB gave me that, I would not have survived without it.<p>[ December 29, 2001: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>

snl,<p>You may note that I said that fence sitting included cheating behind the BS's back AND RIGHT UNDER THEIR NOSE. Since you left that last part out I assume you agree that fense sitting includes blatant adultry. <p>The reason I feel that you make disrespectful judgements about BS's is that it seems that any attempt on the part of the BS to save their marriage and/or to figure out where they stand is taken by you as an attempt to manipute the BS. <p>One thing I have often wondered is what your arguments would be like if you were the BS. I wish that we could do alternate reality studies.. like in this reality, reality A, you are the WS. In another reality, reality B, you could be the BS and thinker would behave in the manner you do. <p>Then and only then could we see what the reality of your convictions are.<p>Just a thought,

Well, I continue to get ignored. I guess my reponse (my choice) to that reality is to stop posting to any thread concerning SNL. But, in this case, my post got buried behind a threepeat of zorweb's and then we move on to another page and no one ever answers Wiffle.<p>SNL this has happened on approximately 10-15 threads. What is it you find so threatening about my responses?

wiffle, I read all your posts, and have nothing but respect for you, nor do I purposely ignore anyone per se. Sometimes I just respond with stuff that kinda fits everyone, or I may even inadvertently lose track, SORRY [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] I appreciate your comments, and let me recheck your post, I was thinking someone had asked me something I forgot to answer, and it was probably you.

wiffle...1. The only difference I can see is that in the case of an affair, the WS made a choice that the BS didn't get any input to. They, however, do have the choice of how to respond.
Choose the behavior, choose the consequences.<p>snl...I agree with consequences, and I was aware there would be some. I was very naive though re those consequences, and would not make the same choice again....but it is also true I would not let a marriage get so disconnected either, without fixing or ending it. I am not overly concerned that the bs had no choice in the affair, that is why it is an affair, it is just what humans do (emotionally), I really think focusing on that an affair happened is a waste of effort, it is why that is important. But I agree it was an injury to the bs, so IMO the ws incurs certain obligations re healing the bs, and must act responsibily if they want you too (ie taking time to tell the truth, and look at the marriage).<p>wiffle...2. SNL,Given your thoughts on marriage in general - it's failure rate, its tenuous place in society, the statement that it should be a renewable contract every few years (which, btw, it is a renewable contract daily - just get out if you choose). Anyway, given what you have said - do you think you would every marry again if you and Thinker divorce? <p>snl...yes..... The comments about renewal are pure brainstorming re human behaviour, for purpose of discussion.<p>wiffle...I guess I am curious as to why? Why not just find your soulmate and make each other happy until one of you changes your mind and then each walk away with no shame, no regrets, no anger, no remorse? Sounds perfectly lovely, doesn't it?<p>snl...I don't think marriages that are between fitted people ever end, or have any real difficulties in that sense....but yes, the moment someone could not tell me honestly they want to be with me more than anything in life, I would want them to go, I do not want to be settled for.<p>wiffle...3. Snl,When do you have time to actually do any HVAC work?<p>snl....That bad huh? I work 40-60 hrs a week at the business.<p>wiffle...As an aside, I think the 2 of you should switch screen names.<p>snl...Nah, they fit, but I see your point.

Thanks for the reply. Sorry I sounded like a shrew in asking for it.
On the Choose the behavior, choose the consequences issue, I was actaually referring to the BS's behavior and consequences. They are the ones who try to DRAG things out and force square pegs and when it ain't all perfect they still get to be the victim.
My point is in most cases we are the victims of ourselves. If it causes you pain -stop it. But, most keep on and say, "oh, but I really love him )(her) and if they could just see this they would love me too." News flash - it doesn't work.
The BS is victim once. But they are the ones who continue to victimize. And for what purpose?<p>P.S. If you do HVAC work 60 hours a week, when do you sleep? Because I know how much you are posting here and outside of that you have to be engaged in some serious introspection. There are only so many hours in a day

SnL,<p>Before you write about knowing to what "Degree" a BS feels pain of the betrayal of an A by the WS, you would need to experience it first hand. Just as we here (BS) should not presume to know to what degree the WS feels pain of their adultery.<p>Saying BS's pain over an A is "Optional" (voluntary) may be true, as it is an emotion and not physical. However, we could then also say the emotional pain of a death of a loved one is also "optional" (voluntary) ... thing is, WE ARE HUMAN BEINGS. Emotions make us human.<p>Have you ever grieved over the death of a loved one, SnL. If you did, WHY did you, it was optional(voluntary).<p>To me your recents posts are geared at trying to minimize your guilt of what BS (specifically Thinker) is feeling. How dare she feel anything, because after all, it's ALL optional. How dare she act human.<p>I say before anyone touts to know what another is "feeling" they would need a frame of reference, and SnL, from what I understand, you have no frame of reference when it comes to feeling what a BS feels.<p>Jo<p>Note: Yes SnL, I see disrespectful judgments in my words, yet I noticed you have quite a few in yours as well.<p>[ December 30, 2001: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

SnL wrote:<p>I broke up with my wife while we were dating (after we had talked and planned marriage), you would have thought the world was ending, she threatened suicide, make vows to "change", all kinds of promises, etc. etc.....unfortunately I believed her and married her (felt guilty, and like I owed her)...she changed nothing.<p>This is an interesting statement. How I read this statement is you are not responsible for your decision for marrying Thinker. No accountability. You were coerced and tricked.<p>If we're going to talk about what's "Voluntary" and "Optional" SnL, are you saying that you marring Thinker was NOT voluntary or optional. Are you saying it was not your decision?<p>An adult making decisions is all about responsibility of that decision. We should live with OUR decisions and should not blame others for making them. <p>Jo<p>[ December 29, 2001: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

Thanks for responding to my question, snl. <p>Listen, having been on both sides of this (former WS and BS) I certainly DO know how it feels -- and it's crap-on-a-stick no matter which side you're on... and for a repentent WS, as I was, it was tantimount to dying (and murder). There are no winners in this game (for lack of a better word).<p>All I can say is that *I think* snl and thinker need to care for eachother through this crisis with her father, and then they should stop the insanity and pain and either work as a team or divorce. <p>I completely and utterly feel for both of you -- truly. <p>Please, make 2002 the year you make a decision!<p>Best wishes to you both...