no jo, I do not blame thinker for anything, was my own choice, and I didn't look back, I think I said that too (and have many times), I do not think I could ever consider myself a victim for any reason, I am not put together that way. Makes no difference what happens in my life, in one way or another it was my choice. I firmly believe feeling like a victim is a choice, one we can make or not make.<p>yes no one can know how anyone feels about anything 100%, not even a bs for another bs, everyones life is different. But we have to be able to talk about this stuff somehow don't we? Shouldn't we just allow that no one knows for sure? But I think it is safe to say everyone in a failed marriage is hurting pretty good, and plenty of ws feel pretty betrayed by actions of their spouses, rejection comes in more than one flavor.... You can bet early in our marriage I felt plenty betrayed when my w made it clear in no uncertain terms I was not first in her life, her dad was.....try living with that for 20+ years, I'd rather she had an affair, and I could have ended stuff, how do you compete with dad?

SNL talks about Radical Honesty and wants it. Why doesn't he be honest with everyone here, and me his wife? Why does he sit on the post and present himself to you as a person working on the marriage, when the Harleys are at a loss? Radical HOnesty is all the time, not just when you want to be Radically Honest.<p>SNL agrees to (z) that plan A should be for a short time. Well he just told me today, we haven't done it long enough yet. Yet he agrees with z on shortness of time, and tells me I should do it longer. We've been in this since Feb. 2001. Because I told him today, that I want to plan B. Also, told him he is not happy here, why don't we just quit and divorce. But yet he says do what you want, and he doesn't want to do the divorce thing. I said you go get the lawyer, he said he is not ready. Do you see where I am going crazy with his responses and attitudes. He agrees with some of you on the board, but tells me differently. Am I just a chalk board full of dust, he blows and I disappear. <p>SNL you state that telling someone something that is terrible is not that terrible, but it is the truth. Why don't you get your courage up and tell me the truth and quit sitting on the fence? I am a human with much hurt in my heart right now. I am losing the first love of my life, my father, and watching him deteriate before my eyes everyday is painful. Being here in a house where my at one time H is, it seems that he doesn't want to be here for a marriage, is not committed to a marriage, is not working with counseling 100% - we just wait for whatever moves SNL makes
and SNL the WS dictates every move, every breath, every word, without any remorse or guilt. Yes I do feel you think your sexual and emotional affair with the OW is justified. You never criticize her on the board, but look what you write about me. You don't hate me, but you sure don't love me. <p>Zorweb - I too would like to see what SNL would think if I had an affair. The statement SNL made that there is only one affair to a marriage. Why does he get to have all the fun and I have to stay with only one man ever in my life? He with this AFFAIR, has had 4 sexual encounters. And he still has feelings for the OW who has had for sure, 2 sexual affairs in her marriage, and my detective said there is a possibility of 1 more. The OW stated to me yes to the 3 1/2 bankrupcys they have had, (detective found) but when I said there is another affair, she said no. Of course she told me she didn't have sex with my H, FAT LIE.<p>And for the upcoming month, life here is going to be pure h*ll. Losing my father is going to be difficult, he is the first man I have ever loved. The man who looked after me when I was young, showed me and my brother how to ride a bike (I am a twin). My father showed us how to fish, took us on family vacations, showed us his family, baseball games, he is the first male in my life from day 1 of my life. God gave me this man to help me grow into the woman I am. I am sorry SNL didn't have a father to be by his side everyday of his growing life. He is hurt by this, but he should be glad that I had a father and mother to be by myside always. SNL is like a child locked in this room and doesn't know the secret word to get out. I wish I knew the word, but he is reluctant to tell me. The OW knew the secret word, and H is so sad to have lost the soulmate that new the secret word. <p>There is so much all of you don't know about our situation. It would take probably a year of writing on the boards to tell you all. But SNL does not give the total facts. <p>Yes, H and I both work on HVAC business. I was asked the same question a few months ago about when does SNL find the time to do the HVAC work with all the time he spends on the board? The initial work gets done, but the follow ups get less attention. Therefore we have some customers that call back to see if the part is in. I just tell them he is bad at paperwork. Things around here slide, some get done, some don't. Like changing the filter on our furnace. Not done yet, hopefully soon. We have 4 dogs, 2 big ones, 2 cats, 2 guinea pigs, 1 parrot, and 6 human heads of hair, with 2 girls with long hair. Our house is dusty, clutter everywhere, so a lot of the areas haven't been vacuumed and dusted in who knows when. SNL decides what he wants to do and what not to do. <p>Estes 49 - I feel like you do. That sitting on the fence pushes the BS to finally give up. Because WS says I don't know. I truly believe SNL wants me to be the one to start the divorce. So if that is it, then I guess I will have to. I will talk to Steve about this more. <p>I agree the two of us should switch names. I am very sad and lonely, and he is the thinker. Maybe we should, but would probably mess up everyone.<p>On SNL renewal contract in marriage every 5 years. I hated when he said this. What about the children? No one would have kids, cause the fact is that 5 years from now the little ones would have a split family. I think SNL stating this, he is not marriage material. He should state this to the next woman he wants to marry. I would love to see her reaction. He should just live with the person, so that when things get tough they split and leave without divorce. I wish I knew this before marriage with him. I would of said for sure forget it. I didn't coerce him into marriage. He did it on his own, in fact when he asked me to marry him the first time, I said no, needed time. I didn't make him marry me, like he states, it was his decision, and now he is sorry and seems to make it my fault. If everything in this marriage is my fault, he has no reason to not want to get out. In fact, he needs to get out now, while his head is above the water. He stated here, that he will remarry, good luck SNL, maybe if she talked to me she would consider the facts.<p>When he states that 2 people who fit each other will have a happy marriage. He is in a confused state. The counselors said, no marriage will be total visions of wonderful love. Every marriage has it failings, and every marriage needs to be worked on. See, he had this wonderful lustful woman that gave him what he wanted and took much money from us. He has had the experience of having this great woman, and now he compares everything to her. As it turns out, she is not that great, in fact, it has been stated by the OW counselor that she is mentally not right, and couseling with us, this woman used my H. She also used the other man she had sexual affair with. She knew when SNL came to her state with our family, that she was going to get him in bed. Why did she say when SNL asked to take her to dinner and a movie that she said NO, I want to go to a hotel? Her comment was somebody will see me. Dah, it doesn't take a scientist to consider this one, shows where her mental capacity is. The people that I talked to said she knew what she wanted. Because she didn't have great sex with her H, she was going to have it with my H. Just like the other man, he gave her great sex, and no one pushed her into the back room of a church and took her clothes off. She went willing and wanting. Just the same with my H, no one pushed her in the hotel, no one took her panties and bra off, she took them of willing. <p>Yes, I am hurting, wish SNL would get it over with. With death around the corner with my dad, and this, and dealing with some other issues around here. Dealing with taking SNL to the hospital for possible heart condition 2 days ago. I am a human with a heart that is crying out for love!

SnL and thinker ...<p>Can I be so bold as to point something out, given your exchange on this board? The two of you are talking *at* each other, not *with* each other. There is no communication going on. It seems like a series of monologues that simply gets deflected off of the other. There seems to me, to be a lot of focus on your respective pain, as though it exists in a conundrum. I don't see too much empathy going on - on either part.<p>I don't know the two of you at all, and I certainly don't have any answers. But I do hope that the two of you are able to learn how to communicate with each other, if nothing else. Regardless if you stay together or blow apart, I feel that you both owe it to each other to make an attempt to really understand where the other is coming from.<p>blessings,<p>belld

**Bumping Up, for belldandy -- her post didn't post!!**

Wiffle,<p>RE: I was actually referring to the BS's behavior and consequences. They are the ones who try to DRAG things out and force square pegs and when it ain't all perfect they still get to be the victim. <p>I assume from what you wrote that you are a WS. Please explain to me how the WS is the victim of an affair? This is a good one…..<p>RE: My point is in most cases we are the victims of ourselves. If it causes you pain -stop it. But, most keep on and say, "oh, but I really love him )(her) and if they could just see this they would love me too." News flash - it doesn't work.
The BS is victim once. But they are the ones who continue to victimize. And for what purpose?<p>What you may not get is that in many cases the WS TELLS THE BS UP FRONT FROM DAY ONE THAT THE AFFAIR WAS BAD BUSINESS AND THAT THEY HAVE ALWAYS LOVED THE BS. It is very often that the WS does not want the marriage to end. While that may not be the case in your story it is the case in many marriages in which affairs happen. Since only about 3% of marriages end when an affair happens, it’s a pretty good bet that both the WS and the BS BOTH want the marriage and want it to work. I’ve said it to SNL and I’ll say it to you. It is disrespectful to assume that all BS’s are sniveling, pathetic weaklings trying to fit square pegs into round roles. <p>When a WS continues to have the affair, in the open, then the WS is victimizing the BS over, and over and over. So tell me, who is the BS victimizing? You, the poor WS? Get real.<p>One of the major problems with these assumptions of yours and SNL’s is that they assume that all BS’s behave in the same manner and that all WS’s have affairs for the same reason and behave in the same manner. This is just not the case. If my H had waffled for one moment about stopping his affairs and rebuilding our marriage he would have been out of here on his a$$.<p>I am just amazed at how many WS’s think they are the injured parties. Poor babies… Their BS’s don’t want them out screwing everything that walks. Instead the BS just wants to know the truth and wants the WS to act with decisiveness.<p>RE: The BS is victim once. But they are the ones who continue to victimize. And for what purpose?<p>nl....???????? You just stated my position, seems we agree, not sure why you find my observations re choices disrespectful. And I could check, but I don't think I said fence sitting includes cheating behind the bs back. <p>
You tell me estes, how do you tell someone you no longer want to be married to them without it being "terrible"..... so if it always is terrible, then it becomes part of life, part of being human, so why treat it as something horrible?
Something that is not so terrible is terrible?

Well, I stayed away from the computer for a day, and I see that a lot transpired on this thread.<p>Once again I am sitting here scratching my head, as I end up doing every time I start discussions with SNL... Clearly we are not communicating, so let me try it again...<p>
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:
agg....SNL, the BS's already know what they want (to keep the marriage intact), and it is the WS's who fence-sit while they decide what they want. This is the fundamental difference between the two. <p>snl....You have described the different positions, you have not identified the fundamental difference. <hr></blockquote><p>The fundamental difference is that the BS has made a choice, and the WS has not made a choice. "Has" vs "has not" are opposites, hence the "fundamental" difference. Are we OK on this point now?<p>
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>What you are doing (and the bs typically do) is try to define one position as morally, ethically, superior, you can't do that, it is a disrespectful judgement.... <hr></blockquote><p>Reread my posts; I specifically pointed out that I am not, in this thread, discussing the moral superiority of a BS vs WS (I have my opinion, but that is not my issue in this thread). If you find a place where I called one superior to the other, please point it out, otherwise let's drop this non-issue.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>You (et al) say no no, the bs has decided, that is misleading. The bs has not decided, they have only said what they want the marriage ...the logic is irrefutable, and IMO keeping ones head buried in the emotional sand is not helpful<hr></blockquote><p>SNL, I know you said you're having a bad day, so perhaps I shouldn't be digging into your thoughts today, but for someone who claims to find strength in logic, you seem to be really off your mark today. You say your logic is "irrefutable"... But then you say that "the BS has decided, but it is misleading because they haven't decided, they only want the marriage". What the heck are you saying? That the BS "think" that they decided, but that they really didn't? I am really having a hard time understanding your point, much less your supposed logic...<p>BTW, I know I'm saying this for the third time, but the reality is that the BS does not have the freedom of choice that the WS does. Since the BS can't make the WS stay (while the WS can choose to stay or leave), the WS inherently has a choice that the BS does not. The BS can choose to leave, you are right, but that would be cutting off their nose to spite their face, since their choice was to keep the marriage intact, and not to divorce...<p>AGG<p>PS. Thinker, I don't want to be adding any pain to your situation. If this thread is causing you to have unneeded arguments with SNL, please let me know, and I will stop participating in this thread. I know full well what it's like for a BS to be posting on the same thread with their own WS; been there, done that...<p>[ December 30, 2001: Message edited by: AGoodGuy ]</p>

snl....What you are doing (and the bs typically do) is try to define one position as morally, ethically, superior, you can't do that, it is a disrespectful judgement.... <p>
By definition the person who is the adulterer is morally and ethically wrong. The person who is not the adulterer is on a moral and ethical higher ground. This is not a disrespectful judgment, it is an absolute. <p>Now to rube the WS’s face in their adultery IS disrespectful judgment.<p>Is it disrespectful judgment to say that a murderer, rapist, or thief is morally and ethically wrong?
But it would be disrespectful judgment to say that they reason they did their crime is because they are scum, ‘bad seeds’, drugged up crazies, etc not deserving of living. <p>Since when is it wrong to make a moral judgment that is backed up by moral, legal and religious doctrine? If we, as individuals and society, do not take a stand on certain things then any and everything is ok.<p>If adultery it ok, then so are all other immoral behaviors. In that case SNL please tell me your home address and phone number. I want to come to your house and see if there is anything of value I can take. After all, with that sort of value system, nothing is wrong as long as I benefit from it.

I have been reading SNL for a very long time. I am under the impression that he likes to come here and debate. It is my opinion that he isn't even making any effort to rebuild his marriage. He doesn't seem to come up with any solutions to his marital problem or personal problems. <p>I'm not sure that this forum is even helping him or if he feels he has even learned anything, here.<p>He feeds off of the debates. This to me is much more his focus, than trying to rebuild his marriage. He spends far too much time focusing on what is wrong. Are there ANY positives? Is there anything good about his marriage, in his opinion?
What exactly (besides debates) does SNL want? What is SNL looking for and what does he expect to get from this forum?<p>I just don't "get it".<p>[ December 29, 2001: Message edited by: Patient1 ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:
<strong> You can bet early in our marriage I felt plenty betrayed when my w made it clear in no uncertain terms I was not first in her life, her dad was.....try living with that for 20+ years, I'd rather she had an affair, and I could have ended stuff, how do you compete with dad?</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I'm very sorry for your pain regarding Dad coming first with Thinker, SnL. I can imagine that hurt terribly.<p>Yet I wonder why the love for her Father would in any way interfere or compete with a marital love. In my mind those two types of loves aren't in the same dimension.<p>I believe a person's capacity for love of many people (i.e., spouse, family, children, friends) is limitless, each within it's appropriate place in our hearts and meeting those people's respective needs depending on the relationship. Because love is not a box, but a stream.<p>SnL, I tend to get a bit upset with you when you, I'm sure unintentionally, disrespect Thinker's mere existence as your W, even from inception (your Marriage Proposal / Wedding).<p>As a BS and former long term W myself, I can imagine it may make Thinker feel she has had no worth in your life from the very beginning and for all those years. I'm sure it's very hurtful for her to read your words.<p>Lv,
Jo<p>[ December 30, 2001: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

Thinker,<p> I am so very sorry about your father's illness. You seem to be a very strong person.<p> SNL, I can't thank you enough for your post and replies. I appreciate very much your honesty.<p> My belief is: IF you love someone enough: let them go and IF they come back to you. they're yours and IF they don't, they never were yours to begin with... Isn't that what all this boils down too?<p> I agree with you. I feel like plan a should be very short. Who wants to try to rebuild a marriage,because they were made to feel guilty. I wouldn't want anyone to stay with me because they felt guilty. I agree, let them go... It has always been my feelings that if a person strayed in the first place they had no love for their spouse to begin with. Especially if they did it more than once.

Oh and by the way, has anyone considered that maybe SNL is trying to help Thinker cope with the crises she is going through?

Spiro,<p>SNL says that he is trying to help her. Thinker says that he is not... at least that was the last thing she said. And to many of us who post to both of them it is hard to see that he is being supportive of her. But we are not in thier home so who knows.<p>[ December 30, 2001: Message edited by: zorweb ]</p>

Zoreb,
I just thought that maybe he didnt want to leave her right now because of her father being so sick. But you are right we just don't know.<p> I just can't imagine him walking out the door at this time. For her sake I hope he doesn't.

z...SNL says that he is trying to help her. Thinker says that he is not... at least that was the last thing she said. And to many of us who post to both of them it is hard to see that he is being supportive of her. But we are not in thier home so who knows.<p>snl..I will ask thinker to answer this. One of our big problems (over the years) was whatever I did was never enough, I never measured up. That is part of why you all are confused about us, and why our posts seem at odds, you really don't know thinker at all. Yes I am being supportive about her father, I am not some inhuman syncophant. It would be pointless to "list" or discuss this, I know she needs support, I do not have to be persuaded with to give it, I do so freely (emotionally, and practically). That we have marital difficulties obviously makes her life more difficult at a bad time for her, I cannot help the marital difficulties, nor can I help that she is all over the map emotionally, somedays hating my guts, other days seeming to appreciate my support and presence. I do not ask anything of her now, I tell her to just focus on her father, and I will pick up the slack at home etc. I think if someone asked her a direct question she would agree I am doing stuff, the problem is (as always) is not enough, and not the way she wants it...that may be so, and it may be part of why we cannot really connect, but it does not mean I am heartless, cruel, or hurtful, I am not those things.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:
<strong>but it does not mean I am heartless, cruel, or hurtful, I am not those things.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>SnL,<p>We know you're not any of those things. We know you are a compassionate and caring man. None of this is easy.<p>Jo

Good morning Everyone,<p>Spiro, I agree about letting go. Aside from the fact that it is impossible to "keep" someone, trying to hang on by emotional manipulation - intentional or otherwise - only makes things worse. (Plan A is not emotional manipulation when correctly done because the changes are made within one's self. Hanging on to the idea of preserving the M isn't either.)<p>thinker, if you are reading, have you steeled yourself for the flood of emotions that will come when you no longer have your father in your life? I do not bring this up to upset you more than you already are. If I am please forgive me. I know that things are so hard now that it's bad enough to go day-by-day much less look into the future. It's just that I have read references to the possibility of improvement in your M when the stress of your father's illness is in the past. I have lost both of my parents so I know from personal experience that you will have months of adjustment to deal with afterwards. What I am trying to say is that you or snl should be prepared for you to have a real challenge to deal with during this trying period. It will be important to be very gentle with each other, more than ever, in the months to come. I'm sorry for your sadness. If you want to talk, I'm here.<p>I attended a wedding last night. After being saddened by my new understanding of, "Will you love him, comfort him, honor and keep him, in sickness and in health; and forsaking all others, be faithful to him as long as you both shall live?," I found some strength in this prayer, "Give them grace, when they hurt each other, to recognize and acknowledge their fault, and seek each other's forgiveness and Yours." I found it interesting that it was assumed that hurts would occur and there was a plan in place to deal with them.<p>I know that not everyone here defines his/her life by premises of faith, but doing so is tremendously important to me.<p>Love,
Estes<p>snl, guess what? I am in total agreement [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] with your reply to The Student in D/D forum re: dating.<p>[ December 30, 2001: Message edited by: Estes49 ]</p>

Spiro,<p>If I recall history, SNL’s affair not willing to leave his wife predates thinker’s fathers current illness, Or at least the most serious part of his illness, by several months. <p>SNL,<p>Sorry, don’t mean to be talking about you in third person just wanted to fill in some history for Spiro that I think I know.<p>As for your comments SNL, <p>
RE: I think if someone asked her a direct question she would agree I am doing stuff<p>I have asked thinker this type of question directly. If I recall correctly her response you have not been there for her through her father’s illness.<p>RE: the problem is (as always) is not enough, and not the way she wants it...that may be so, and it may be part of why we cannot really connect<p>To say that no enough can be done for her is something of a disrespectful judgment. The MB concept, and it makes a lot of sense, is that a person needs to find out what their spouse needs and do exactly that. If you try to meet thinker’s needs in a manner that is not what she needs, you will always miss the mark. It does not mean that what you are doing is not enough. It may very well be the wrong thing.<p>Let me give you an example. In my previous marriage, I supported my ex-H and our family while he went to med school and residency. I made sure that we all had a comfortable home, the house was always as clean as I could keep it. I took as good care of myself as I could for a woman working 12-16 hour days who handled everything. I was also always loving and available for SF. It always seemed that I could not do enough for the man. I was doing all I could but nothing was enough. It turns out that although he dumped all of the financial and house hold burdens on me (he announced that I’d be supporting him through med school so I tried to do the best I could.) what he really wanted was a bimbo type wife who fawned all over him and tell him how wonderful he was. When I say bimbo wife I really mean it… I now realize that the women he dated before me were his real type… he a box of photos of them doing stuff in the buff so that he can ‘remember’ them even when they are not with him. Well, he ‘remembered’ them all through our marriage too. He wanted a wife who makes less then he does so that he could feel like the ‘big guy’. He also wanted a wife who would leave all decision making up to him.. Later in our marriage he said that only one person (the husband) should make the decisions and the wife should happily live with them. Well I was in a catch 22, I am not a bimbo air head… never was (well except when I was 20) and never will be. There was no way I could support our life style (the one that he would not give up come hell or high water), be a very successful business woman, call all of the shots at home and at work, and then come home and be an air head the few hours a week that he bothered to come home.<p>If I had realized all of this, I might have quit my job and told him to support us. <p>Today the ‘good doctor’ is engaged to an airline stewardess who is so impressed that she has snagged a doctor. She is all googly eyed over him. He is happy. I hope it works for them.<p>
You see, if you are handling all the stuff around the house to give thinker a break, and what she wants is someone to hold her while she cries, then you are doing some nice stuff but you are not meeting her needs. Your post sounds like you have not asked her what she needs from you right now. Ask her what she needs, do that, then any thing else you do is just icing on the cake.<p>If you cannot ask her, have her come here and we will do it. I'd give my eye tooth to get the two of you on the same wave length finally.

Zorweb,
No, I am not the WS. As I have stated, in my own very troubled marriage an affair is not the problem. I have been married 15 years and have never had any type of inappropriate relationship outside of my marriage. To my knowledge, neither has my husband. That probably makes me "unqualified" to speak to this issue, but I will try to clarify what I meant.<p>I certainly did not mean to imply the WS is the victim of anything but their own choices. I do, however, believe strongly that we all choose our destinies. When I said the BS continues to be a victim I meant they do it to themselves many times. By putting their future, their happiness on another persons decisions. <p>I think people need to do what they need to do to be healthy and whole and many times that means knowing when to end the marriage. I do not mean to paint all BSs with the same brush - every situation is different. But, alot of times the BS wants to hang on to what WAS and they make the misery last longer than it may otherwise.

Wiffle,<p>Boy does it look like I misinterpreted what you said. Thanks for the explanation. You may not have experienced infidelity from either vantage point.. .but you do get it. I certainly agree with you. There is a time for everything, including letting go. A person can only continue to hurt us if we continue to let them.

Thanks again

SNL, I have continually stopped myself from responding to the posts you are involved in because of a refusal to paticipate in any discussion involving such apocryphal attitudes as yours. But, this one defies all bounds.
I agree with Resilient. Emotional pain is NOT optional. Only a true phycotic can dish out pain as you do to Thinker and then justify and rationalize it by saying it is HER choice! You continue to show no remorse for the dishonesty and dispair you have caused in the lives of those who CARE for you! Why are you here? Are you looking for justification of your actions, Or are you trying to say that all the evils in your life you were (tricked) into perpetuating!
You seem to think your OW is this great person, well, sorry, but no one here is going to put an angels' cap on a woman who would pull her pants down for a married man. [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img]