SNL, I think an important thing to remember, is that you have to GET THEM BACK so you CAN work on the problems that led to the detaching. Take for example my H. Before he woke up, he was unwilling to go to counselling or to read any counselling or self-help books; he was basically not willing to put any work into the marriage (altho he WAS willing to sleep with me and have ME do nice things for HIM). I would ask him what his emotional needs were so I could work on that, and he would say he didn't know if he WANTED me to supply his emotional needs. Like he told me after attending a marriage enrichment at his church (after he woke up), "I was not READY to hear about His Needs, Her Needs before, but I AM NOW."<p>After a 19 yr marriage (21 1/2 yrs now) I did not want a divorce, but then again, neither did I want the same kind of marriage I had had the past 15 yrs or so. I had studied so much, and worked on myself so much, not only with relationship books, but with self-help books as well, that I felt like I was beginning to be prepared to do what it took to make a marriage work. BUT, I had to have a partner, preferably in residence!<p>Territorial triggers are very strong in most people. Of course, as soon as my H abandoned me, I could have filed for divorce and gone out and started dating...and probably found a real live boyfriend. Then when H's territorial triggers started rearing their head, I could have said, "too bad, too late" and gone back to my boyfriend! Instead I chose to wait on my H for almost 18 months after he abandoned me, with according to him basically no hope of getting back together. I chose to do what I did; it had a good result, and I really am not sorry I took that course.<p>I have noticed the guys are the ones who think what I did is manipulative (another thread on emotional needs debating that right now, LOL). Wonder why that is??<p>Carol

I think guys think it is manipulative cause.....well, it is manipulative [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Females may be more accomodating cause they play these "games" all the time....But I am not saying it is wrong, just that any manipulation comes at a price, that price is less committment. However, I understand completely, you have to have em back, and their attention, in order to DO anything else [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I am just curious if the folks who promote this fully explain the downside to those they counsel. Ideally a man and woman choose each other without any coercion at all, completely freely cause they want nothing else in live...not cause of kids, not cause of territorial triggers (great imagery btw), not cause of fear over finding someone "better" (settling) and so forth....real life doesn't seem to allow this too much though, and lots of other pressures intrude...I realize I am way out on the curve with such things, and maybe I think too much for my own good. But I am pretty sure I would not do this, I would not want someone back on those terms, I would want them to choose on their own.... but then again when I left (I am wsh) I was done (I don't make such errors, the affair was wrong, but I was already gone emotionally), and unless I can find some reason to change my mind (and losing my w is not one of them), something that shows me my analysis of my marriage (and how we fit) is in error, then I am probably done.... I was contemplating how I might feel under the same circumstances as your H, I don't think it would do anything to me (but who knows, till one is there), I would just be glad she seemed to be ok (unless I knew it was a sham of course)....I have never been afraid of losing someone per se, that is possessive, and I don't love that way (or want to be loved that way). If someone is happy without me, I just figure great, more power to em, and go about my business...I guess I am not manipulable to much that way.<p>What I am curious about is how much work does one do (like that) to get someone back, 18 months is such a long time, I am afraid I don't think it would be worth it to me, even if he did come back, too little, too late, and too much of an indicator of stuff I really don't ever want to deal with, or trust. I'd feel more comfortable having some other relationships first, especially after that many years, and becoming accostomed to such a empty marital relationship. Just to make sure I wasn't emotionally crippled...ya know?<p>That is part of my difficulty now, after 29 years together, I figure I know how it is for us, and I don't really see anything changeing. I think we would make much better freinds, and ex-spouses, than continuing to be married and lonely. Is a little different here though (from your H), I never left, stopped the A, and readily participated in counselling, read all the books, etc.... In fact I found MB, and took a month to get her involved.....all I want is the truth re us, so we can get on with our lives, one way or another. But I really don't know why she wants to be married, after years of telling me she didn't (and in fact it hasn't been a safe nurturing place for either of us).... we have enough money she will be ok, kids are grown, I stress her, but she won't let go, I don't see how being divorced will be any different than being married, in terms of how we interract, or meet needs. Cripes we have been together a long time, and have 4 kids, I don't dislike her, and won't neglect her, we just stress each other too much cause of who we are....I am sure someone more like her would make her more happy that way, it is what I want for her.

SNL I think the difference in us, and the reason I was able to give it so long was that I am a very FIRM believer in those marriage vows. I think people get out of them FAR too easily. There are only a few scenarios where I think divorce is justifiable, so I really didn't feel like divorce was an option. I had married him till we were DEAD, not till he decided to have a MLC. He had always felt strongly abt marriage vows too.<p>On the other hand, I knew we had problems, but had learned enough to know that we needed the tools to solve them...basic communication tools helped a lot. We also found that we were sooooo Mars/Venus it was uncanny....we both misinterpret each other a lot. So now if we are unclear, we hash it out honestly and try to discover the real truth of the matter.<p>I will give you an example of our Mars/Venus problem.<p>(this was before we got back together, but after he woke up). We were discussing my family reunion. H said, "I may have to come on Fri afternoon and leave on Sun. because of work (he and parents own biz, he is a workaholic, never taking any time off)." I got upset thinking, he will never take any time out from work for US; it will NEVER change. WHAT HE MEANT WAS: "I think so much of you that I am willing to pay beaucoup bucks for a plane ticket to come for just a few days; plus I think that is all your family will be able to stand me since I have treated you so badly by leaving you." Can you see why we have communications problems!! But we are WORKING on it.<p>Carol

Oh My gosh. I cannot believe your story. You could be us. My H is passive-aggressive and a huge conflict avoidance person. He doesn't think counselling will do him any good and although we went to a few he wasn't really into it so I gave it up with him.<p>He too blames me for all his problems. I have been ready to give up and throw in the towel but reading your story (I printed it off) has given me the inspiration to continue (that and a phone call from my daughter this morning!!). We don't have any children together so have no connection and I haven't seen him since Dec. 27th. <p>We were "dating" up until that date, but I realized that he is so confused (MLC) he needs some time and space so I told him that although I loved him and am committed to our M I will give him the time and space he needs to make a decision.<p>I didn't really think he would take me seriously but he has. So I too am getting on with my life (even to the point of looking for a new job in a different city). This is the hardest thing I have ever had to do and I don't want to give up so thanks for the story. Your advice and tips will certainly help me through this time.

You can give him his space, but make sure he gets a peek at how good you are looking these days, and what a full, active life you have. When my H left I immediately got a new haircut, started wearing makeup and dressing better, lost weight (the separation diet!), new modern style glasses and then contacts. I joined civic chorale, theater group, opera board of directors...in other words I GOT A LIFE. H was very intrigued.<p>I used to drop by his ofc on occasion to mail packages and so he could glimpse of the new me. You might need to do something like this. Giving them space does not mean you totally ignore them (that is plan B or going dark). First you need to try Plan A! Plan B and going dark is for when all else has failed, and they need that jolt of NOT having you.<p>Carol
PS. Yes I know, it was so funny that when H left everything bad that had ever happened to him for the past 19 years was MY fault. When he wanted back, he said 90 percent was HIS fault (he had pulled some doozies, believe me). I personally thought it was about 75 percent his fault (he was a mess with his p-a behavior), and others did too, but I had problems too, especially with not giving him EN's (didn't know about that stuff then).

Carol.<p>I don't think it was manipulative at all. I agree with what you did. You we're showing your H what it would be like if he did Divorce you. <p>I think you used a combination of things like Plan A/B... and the divorce busting techniques.
You also sought out a coach....<p>I say. GOOD FOR YOU !!!!<p>I wish yu would have been around when I was going through this stuff.... I was a plan a failure... yep. I did allllll the wrong things that drove my H away. Begging...crying... wanting to talk about it allllll the time.... ya know.<p>But. I would like to know where you got your "COACH" from.<p>Its too late for me now... we're divorced...<p>anyhoot.... GOD BLESS YOU AND YOUR H !!<p>s

SNL and thinker talked to Steve today and we are basically going for a divorce protection. Steve told me to see a lawyer, see where my rights are in this state. I need to protect myself. So if you want to talk to SNL and get his thoughts, be more than happy for him to talk. He is getting what he wants. Going to give an analysis of todays conversation on Divorce/Divorce.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by thinker:
<strong>SNL and thinker talked to Steve today and we are basically going for a divorce protection. Steve told me to see a lawyer, see where my rights are in this state. I need to protect myself. So if you want to talk to SNL and get his thoughts, be more than happy for him to talk. He is getting what he wants. Going to give an analysis of todays conversation on Divorce/Divorce.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I am very saddened to hear this, Thinker. Just very sad. Right now I don't know what else to say.<p>I am thinking of you two. And I will continue to pray for you both.<p>I hope you're okay, Hon. I'll be looking for your post on D/D.<p>Love,
Jo<p>[ January 24, 2002: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

Resilient - This is what SNL wants. Steve said it today a little different. Steve basically said SNL you don't want to follow the path of MB. You don't want to meet Thinkers EN, SNL doesn't even want to do the homework of MB. I get so irrate when SNL posts here, that he has read all the books, is doing the stuff, why did Jennifer give up on SNL and said why don't you talk to Steve? Basically we have only talked to Steve maybe 4 or 5 times, and Steve told me to get a lawyer, to find out my rights. SNL doesn't seem to be disturbed by the actions of myself getting a lawyer. He actually seems to be relieved. He was so tense last night, and this morning. Now it is like something has been pulled off his shoulder.<p>I thought SNL was a smart, strong man. But during this counseling, I have seen a man who is afraid. A man who is cowarding. Using MB to feed his mind, backup his negativism, to feed his endless analytical questions. Steve told us today, you have had plenty of time, and how much longer is it going to take, SNL didn't know. Steve basically said, you have gotten nowhere, SNL said, I am back sleeping in the same room, we spent 4 hours last night cleaning up his office, etc. I feel he is using me to organize everything for him. I asked him to take over the bills yesterday, cause I am under so much stress, and he said he won't. He said things will be in such a mess. You know, from those remarks, and the remarks on this thread, and what Steve said, I believe wholeheartedly, that SNL has been doing this to get me out of his life. This was mentioned before on some posts, and I finally got it today. He is putting me under so much stress, that I will get the lawyer, and SNL doesn't have to be the badguy. This made sense after STeve answered my question why SNL doesn't get a lawyer all this time and divorce. <p>This also, makes me sad, that this man I loved, is not as strong as I thought. God will help him, if he has asked God for forgiveness. He has never stated he wants forgiveness from me. I wonder if he analyzes with God this affair was meant to be, that it was not lust, it was what God wanted? I wonder if he loves God, or what he feels about God, he has mistreated myself and the kids so badly these last 9 months, this man is not who I married. If you believe in God, pray for SNL for peace with God. Have SNL start talking nice about his mother too. I have to interact between the two of them and this is so stressful, but of course SNL just says answer the phone. Never says, would you please answer the phone, I really don't want to talk to mom now. Just demands it on me. <p>Carol, take what SNL says with a grain of salt. He does not know what MB is, stated today. He doesn't know, how to follow the path when MB counselors tell him how. SNL does what SNL wants to do, and he is the WS, so they are quite selfish. Pray for unselfishness for SNL too.<p>As you all know, my trust in men is gone, and my trust in the Lord has fallen. I am praying for my Love with God to come back.

Thinker, sorry to hear your news, but I am not really surprised after SNL's post to me. Do not worry, I did take his post to me with a grain of salt--I could tell that he and I were not on the same page! (very telling comment he made about wanting to try other relationships first....everyone on here knows that is one of the main things you want to avoid when separated as it REALLY complicates things.)<p>Anyway, just wanted to drop you a quick note.<p>Carol

BUMP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wow this was better then a soap opera! It had a happy ending! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] I couldn't wait to read the next installment...<p>I'm so glad this worked for you. I am going to try a little of it on my H and see what happens..maybe he needs to know that I am not going to be here at for him as easily as he thinks.

haha Marie, I even tried to be brief when I wrote this...there was so much more that I didn't even put in, LOL. But I did hit the high points.<p>H and I continue to do well. He signed us up for another marriage enrichment dinner at his church. This is so totally amazing from a guy who would not even crack a relationship book, and said all counsellor's were the scum of the earth! I sure do love that man of mine! (and I sure let him know that all the time).<p>Carol

up for Myownme

Bump for the rifraff [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

This is really interesting! Thanks for the "bump". I have some thinking to do about this, and then probably some questions. Am I wrong when I say "SNL" and "Thinke"r are married?.... even more interesting!<p>Later,<p>Pepper

yes, thinker and snl are married, been together 30 years, married for 24 + change, 4 kids, no previous infidelity, but pretty much 30 years of conflict, ending in withdrawal probably 5 years ago.

My thoughts exactly, very interesting. Some will and have called this manipulation. Perhaps it is in that there are motives behind doing this. But, isn't there motives behind any plan to save a marriage?<p> jd

JD<p>The word "manipulation" doesn't frighten me. .... A woman manipulates every time she shimmies into a Victoria's Secret push-up bra! LOL! [img]images/icons/blush.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Well, I wonder if Carol has plans to share the truth about her 180 plan with her husband? Does one apply the MB principle of radical honesty after a successful 180 plan? Would she ever invite her husband to this forum so he could read the things she's written about her 180? Does the "coach" advise her on how to do this disclosure later on?<p>What say you sir?<p>Pepper

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Well, I wonder if Carol has plans to share the truth about her 180 plan with her husband? Does one apply the MB principle of radical honesty after a successful 180 plan? Would she ever invite her husband to this forum so he could read the things she's written about her 180? Does the "coach" advise her on how to do this disclosure later on?<p> What say you sir?<p> Pepper
<hr></blockquote><p> Well, while Carol did relate this story of her success to us here at MB, I don't know that she ever subscribed to the concepts here. I don't recall her saying in her posts.<p> What I believe she did elaborate on was that she used a combination of sorts. Or that the 180 plan was similar in some regards to Plan A/B.<p> Whether she uses radical honesty in her approach to the future, I don't know. We would need to get her here again to find out.<p> Now, what I myself believe is probably something less than radical honesty. I see no reason for her to tell her H or show him this thread. Especially if they are in a strong recovery. <p> I do take a bit of heat from fellow MBers for this position. That's ok. I understand their feelings about it. And no, I don't just feel this way based on one being the BS. I have already cautioned rifraff friends of yours against the possible downside of being radically honest where a strong recovery is in process, and they(she actually)was the WS.<p> Hehe....that's a lot of words to say no, I don't see a need for Carol to tell.<p> jd