Number one, I did not sign on for this. This was the one thing that was absolutely NOT supposed to happen. This was promised above and beyond the usual promises in the vows because of my former BS status and HIS former BS status. I KEPT MY PROMISE!!!!! He did not, and now *I* have to live with the one thing I was promised I would never have to deal with. I hate it, I hate it, I hate it!<p>Number two, my H is dead and I am living with his killer. This is the most crazy-making, awful, tortuous thing I have ever been subjected to. My children are not allowed to know why their mother cries and spends too much time on the computer. Friends and family are not allowed to know what was done to me, and I'm expected to be an accomplice in the deception that this stranger I'm with is the man they think he is.<p>I can't even talk about what was done to me because there is no empathy, no understanding, no remorse, no responsibility, and convenient memory loss. Any attempted discussion of the issues just ends up being devastating or infuriating, never any resolution, never any "I'm sorry I did this horrible thing to you." I can't think of a single reason to even pursue the topic because of the disgusting feigned ignorance and rationalization. Makes me so sick and exasperated I just want to scream.<p>And now my stomach is tied up in knots like a pretzel because I have to go THERE! tonight. Why? Because my only alternative is NOT to go there! Neither is acceptable. I should not be subjected to either one. It's like giving someone a choice about which eye they'd like to have gouged out.<p>I cannot imagine ever feeling comfort in my own skin again under these circumstances. I read Harley's stuff over and over again, all the promises that you can fall in love again, but SHOULD I even try to fall in love with someone who would do such a despicable thing? I don't think I will. The closest I can get is smelling him and remembering the dead man who seems to be gone forever. And sometimes I feel sorry for his pathetic-ness.<p>I don't want to be here, but I know that no matter where I go, there I'll be, and there this pain will be. The only way I can talk myself into staying is to promise myself I can leave whenever I need to. How can THAT be good? How can you build a relationship on a foundation like that? What is this? I don't even know what this is that I'm in, but I know I hate it.<p>Sometimes I feel like I'm hanging on by a thread and that I'm just going to explode one of these days. I have the strangest compulsions, and I wonder how long I can keep them under control, and I wonder why I bother. HE sure didn't, and he got everything he wanted. He has his victim doing pretty much everything he wants. He's never had to listen to one word of this stuff that eats me up inside that you all have been burdened with from me.<p>The only comfort I am able to give myself is that at least I'm not responsible for inflicting this pain and agony on another human being. I may have nightmares every single night, but at least I can sleep and I can face myself in the mirror in the morning. So that's my blessing counting for today--not much, but at least something.

why aren't you in plan b? And if things don't improve then you go to divorce, and you free your heart to love again....and then you will heal.

I'd have to agree with SnL... why not Plan B?? You're clearly losing so much love at this point that it seems like your only choice.<p>I haven't done it yet, but in my imagination, Plan B is a nice place - you can rid yourself of this baggage and really start some good hard work on building something better. Yes, it will suck in many ways. But it will get better daily. And in a while, you'll be preoccupied with new stuff, maybe a new love in time, maybe something else.<p>But here's something that gives me strength and courage. The thought that I don't NEED my WW. I don't NEED her. I prefer it to work out, but I don't NEED her. I don't need much - air, food, water, shelter. I prefer romantic love, but I was a happy person before I had my wife. The more we act like we need something, the more we push it away, and the more we attack our own esteem. The same is true of fear - it acts against us almost always. Those I've seen have success here have bitten the bullet and made the hard choices - and have come out on top in the end, one way or another.

It's my kids. It's like walking a razor's edge trying to figure out which is better for them. I'm willing to suffer and delay my gratification for their sakes, but I'm also aware that their mother in too much distress is not in their best interest either, so I'm constantly assessing if I can keep my personal grief under control enough to keep their world as secure as possible for as long as possible.<p>I am the fourth generation of divorce in my family and grew up witnessing the fallout in all four generations. I've had to see my first set of children go through everything I went through and worse. I guess so far the thought of putting more innocent children through that is still more aversive than the thought of remaining in this unsatisfactory relationship for a few more years.<p>However, even that did not stop me last week when I attempted Plan B, but then when he committed to Harley's recovery program, the thought of the kids loomed in front of me again, and I felt I owed them another try.<p>I think what gets to me is that even when I try to imagine the best-case scenario, where he stops rationalizing and owns what he did, has empathy and all that, it is still so hard for me to imagine feeling connected to him again. It feels like I will always feel cheated. He will have everything he ever wanted, and I will never have the bare basic of what I wanted and NEEDED.<p>It's the inherent injustice and unfairness that gets to me, but then on top of that is that all decisions subsequent to the decision to commit adultery seem to be unsavory and inevitably painful to pretty much everyone. It's a situation that seems custom-made for confusion, indecision, immobilization, etc., because every direction is a direction you did not choose in the first place.<p>I guess the best analogy I can think of is a person paralyzed due to the actions of another having to choose which type of wheelchair to use or which rehab program to try. If they truly had a choice, they'd choose not to be a paraplegic in the first place, but they were robbed of that choice. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Most of the time I manage to keep all this safely compartmentalized, but I guess with the specter of tonight eating away at me, it all came flooding out. I know I do have choices, but I just don't like any of them and I resent being robbed of my original choice. I hope we can all eventually find a place of peace.

That's how I feel sometimes! However, I haven't quite been able to express it correctly - but you have. <p>Everyone on this board struggles with those feelings. It's not fair. Why me. How could anyone be so hurtful? And the list goes on and on.....<p>It's the same why do bad things happen to good people story. As far as I can gather it's just plain sin and temptation. We do get stronger through suffering, although it's not what we would have chosen to go through. I know this sounds trite, but with every good Friday there is an Easter Sunday, and I really see God working in my life even with all of the pain and suffering going on. After the 9/11 attacks, in his homily, our priest said that good always triumphs over evil - otherwise he was in the wrong profession. <p>Although it's REALLY HARD to remind ourselves of this while we're going through the pain.<p>I couldn't take it any longer, so I went to Plan B, and I have to say - it was heaven. Plan A is so hard! I oculd actually focus on myself for a change, and not always have to worry about what I was going to say to the WS. I was really losing love units. I tried to move to Plan A again (long story) and just can't. It's onto Plan D, which technically you still Plan A through. <p>This is not to say it was all easy. The thought of me even being ok with not living with H for the rest of my life saddened me beyond all belief. But people said I would feel differently, and they were right - once I found out that my current WH is NOT the one I married, nor someone who I would marry today.<p>I wanted to be the perfect wife. I didn't want to give up. I didn't want to be like everyone else and rush out and divorce my WH, no matter what he did. I figured - what if I was the one with an addiction, how would I want my H to treat me. However, I think some of out problems now stem from things that were H's personality traits from before the A. Like a controlling personality.<p>I also can't stress how important it is just to try your hardest and tell yourself that His not goign to win the war! I have three kids and now my focus is on how to be the parent that I can be - instead of reading books on affairs I'm reading books on how to parent kids. <p>It also helps that when you are in a better mood -and don't worry, you will be. Write down how you feel, your goals and maybe a letter to yourself giving yourself a little pep talk so that you can read it when you're feeling down. <p>Try to stay strong right now. God never abandons us - even if other humans do. He's there carrying you when you can't walk through the pain by yourself. K

<p>[ January 28, 2002: Message edited by: God is in Control ]</p>

Just had to add - don't assume WH is having a wonderful time. Often they're not - they just say they are.

Dear C,<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Conqueror:
<strong>Number one, I did not sign on for this. This was the one thing that was absolutely NOT supposed to happen. This was promised above and beyond the usual promises in the vows because of my former BS status and HIS former BS status. I KEPT MY PROMISE!!!!! He did not, and now *I* have to live with the one thing I was promised I would never have to deal with. I hate it, I hate it, I hate it!<p>Number two, my H is dead and I am living with his killer. This is the most crazy-making, awful, tortuous thing I have ever been subjected to. My children are not allowed to know why their mother cries and spends too much time on the computer. Friends and family are not allowed to know what was done to me, and I'm expected to be an accomplice in the deception that this stranger I'm with is the man they think he is.<p>I can't even talk about what was done to me because there is no empathy, no understanding, no remorse, no responsibility, and convenient memory loss. Any attempted discussion of the issues just ends up being devastating or infuriating, never any resolution, never any "I'm sorry I did this horrible thing to you." I can't think of a single reason to even pursue the topic because of the disgusting feigned ignorance and rationalization. Makes me so sick and exasperated I just want to scream.<p>And now my stomach is tied up in knots like a pretzel because I have to go THERE! tonight. Why? Because my only alternative is NOT to go there! Neither is acceptable. I should not be subjected to either one. It's like giving someone a choice about which eye they'd like to have gouged out.
</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Who is stopping you from these things? If youre inerts are busting you'd better get it out before you are not able to care for you and your children. Don't let yourself get to the point of self combustion. Been there done that!!! Not healthy. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Conqueror:
<strong>It's my kids. It's like walking a razor's edge trying to figure out which is better for them. I'm willing to suffer and delay my gratification for their sakes, but I'm also aware that their mother in too much distress is not in their best interest either, so I'm constantly assessing if I can keep my personal grief under control enough to keep their world as secure as possible for as long as possible.<p>
I think what gets to me is that even when I try to imagine the best-case scenario, where he stops rationalizing and owns what he did, has empathy and all that, it is still so hard for me to imagine feeling connected to him again. It feels like I will always feel cheated. He will have everything he ever wanted, and I will never have the bare basic of what I wanted and NEEDED. &#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;..<p>
Most of the time I manage to keep all this safely compartmentalized, but I guess with the specter of tonight eating away at me, it all came flooding out. I know I do have choices, but I just don't like any of them and I resent being robbed of my original choice. I hope we can all eventually find a place of peace.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>
See their mom suffer is not good for your children. Actually I was able to handle it better and so was my 6 year old when he learned I was being truthful with him. No I did not share everything just enough to let him know that I was not fooling him. My son even said he wished his dad would talk the truth with him. Hm......kids know so why pretend like they don't. <p>Step back and weigh the whole picture here C. Your children don't want to see their mom suffering no matter how little they are. <p>Hugz,
L.

Conqueror.<p>Most of the time I manage to keep all this safely compartmentalized, but I guess with the specter of tonight eating away at me, it all came flooding out. I know I do have choices, but I just don't like any of them and I resent being robbed of my original choice. I hope we can all eventually find a place of peace.<p>Good girl...you acknowledged the trigger for your feelings today... You are anxious about going to an unsafe place...the place where he practices that had previously been taboo for you.<p>OK, now look at your fears about tonight. Imagine the possibilities of all that could happen and how you will handle it..Imagine the absolute worst! And then see yourself in your mind handling the situation with aplomb and grace.<p>I have had to do this over and over again..Going to my first social event knowing that everyone there had seen SO and OW together, going someplace where I knew I would run into her...the preliminaries were always worse than the actual event.<p>Anxiety heightens so many emotions, so the feelings you have right now are glaring brightly instead of their usual dull glow...It's OK.<p>C, I have followed your posts for a long time...you are a capable, strong woman...and you have been doing so well, even when the events of your life would have made a lesser person cave.<p>I know you will get thru tonight and do it well.
T

Dear Conqueror,<p>I am sorry that you are in so much pain while you are trying to do the right thing. I understand your wish to keep the family together for your children. In the best of circumstances, that is what a parent should do. However, this is not the best of circumstances. It will not do the kids any good, in the long run, if their mother loses her spirit through sacrifice for them. You are not expected to lose yourself in an effort to preserve your family. Your family's experiences with D have shown you how it affects children, but seeing their mom being treated with blatant disrespect is bound to have it's effect also. There has got to be a better solution for you than to suffer this way. {{{Conqueror}}}<p>Thinking of you,
Estes

There was a post earlier, telling people that Oprah's topic for today was what divorce does to children. I missed it myself but did go to the site and there's a lot of info there. Take a look. It might put your heart at ease a bit.

The damage is already done. Your current state is no better for your children then a divorce. Like the airline passenger who must put their oxygen mask on before she tends to her child’s mask, so must you help yourself first. This is not doing your children any good.<p>I do not understand something. Your H signed up to MB but he still frequents the place she works and is not taking you there? Why are you going along with this? Tell your H what this is doing to you. Ask him to stop all contact with her and to stop going to that establishment. If he refuses then he is not following MB. And you are too far along to continue in Plan A. Your love is all but gone.<p>The reason you cannot get beyond this is that he will not let you ask about the affair, will not give you the answers, will not take responsibility and will not let you express your pain. This is no way to save a marriage. <p>Take care of yourself. This is terrible.

I watched the very last moments of the Oprah show on the effects of divorce on children...<p>interesting story... my take... the parents were very angry at financial and marriage stuff that they couldn't control about each other and raged... the rage continued into the divorce... until they saw the effects on their child and then they went to family therapy and learned to let their anger go... they now work together (though were still divorced) to raise son... I wondered if they had learned to let their anger go and stop trying to control one another, if they could have remained married... <p>... the question only they could have answered was could both have gotten on board to do that? <p>Conqueror... I know your anger. I had it and more. The discovery of the A seemed to kick the anger right out of me... and I am not saying that your anger is wrong or misplaced... in fact, Carder in Torn Asunder says that BSs have to work through their anger to get to forgiveness... the question is for you... how are you going to do that? Can you come up w/ a plan to do that?<p>Me... I now, after reading his book, worry that I have not been angry enough and that I have forgiven too quickly and easily... <p>Finally... what kind of life do you want to live? What is preventing you from living that way? I believe the best thing you can do is make the life that Conqueror wants to live... find your joy and your peace... cause that is what God wants for you... but only YOU can make that come true for you... the question for you is HOW and WHEN...<p>Hugs and prayers,
Cali

Hi Cali,<p>I watched Oprah also. Prior to that last story that you watched, there were two additional stories.<p>One of the couples had been D for a short time and had two boys, ages 9 and 11. From both parents perspective they felt and thought both boys were doing great, HOWEVER, when the Oprah guest interviewed the boys they sadly found out different.<p>Most of the contention between the parents was over custody, the parents loved their boys so much they both wanted more visitation time. And fought over it constantly.<p>Both boys were in crisis regarding their parents on-going disrespect, anger and berating of one another. It was very emotional. Both parents thought they were hiding their encounters with one another well, and the boys were not being affected.<p>As an example: The boys were acting out things their parents were doing to one another such as calling their mother names (ugly, fat, etc.) and calling her by her first name as opposed to calling her mother or mom. They told their mother their dad told them to call her that. <p>The very emotional part was when both parents read letters to the boys telling them they were sorry for involving them in the D. And they both promised to never involve them again and to stop the angry words and berating of one another. The H started to break down when he read his. (I started to tear up too).<p>Jo<p>[ January 29, 2002: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

Thank you all for your encouragement and challenges. This latest round of outrage must have been because of going where the OW works last night. It upset me that I even had to be in that position, which then dominoed into the entire adultery-survival thing that I had no choice in.<p>I did okay going there. Never ran into her--don't know if she even works that shift, but left earlier than usual and missed shift change, so maybe a different story next week. I'm accommodating too much here since I really shouldn't have to deal with it at all.<p>I'm accommodating because he agreed to never go back after this league is finished, but when you really think about it, he shouldn't have joined in the first place, but of course that was back when he was with her, so I was not a consideration in the decision, which brings me back to the original problem yet again. Like he deserves a compromise from me. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] <p>He has agreed to the MB rules, but I guess what is bothering me now is, then what? When I try to project into the future, I'm having a problem with the basic Harley theory I guess. None of the 10 ENs that Harley describes will fulfill my need to not be abandoned, to be special, to be the one and only, to be valuable and not discardable.<p>I had boyfriends who were very admiring, affectionate, conversationalists, but I did not marry them. No amount of admiration, affection, conversation, honesty, SF, etc., would have induced me to marry them. They had a lack of character that prevented me from marrying them. I instinctively felt that I could not trust them, though they were being faithful to me at the time.<p>What do you do when your greatest EN is to feel secure, to feel that you will not be abandoned? Harley doesn't address that need, and it's my most important one. My concern is that my H can never meet that need. He has proven that when I need him most, he will abandon me. What can he possibly do to overcome that? So far, I cannot feel secure in this R, and since history cannot be changed, I wonder if I ever CAN feel secure in this R.<p>I'm thinking I'll write to Dr. Harley about this issue. I know I'm not the only adult child of divorce with this basic need.<p>I guess I'm thinking the best-case scenario here is that I can have a R, but it will not be a fulfilling one because I will still only be able to count on myself. I will have no "soft place to fall", as Dr. Phil calls it.<p>But maybe it is better for my children this way. At best, starting over would just be another crap shoot. I thought I had covered all bases when I married this man, that I had done everything humanly possible to avoid abandonment.<p>The other thing Harley doesn't address is what if a spouse is physically or emotionally incapacitated? I was able to meet my H's ENs just great until life dealt out more than I could handle. Isn't that when we're supposed to be able to count on our spouse to take up the slack and help us through "the worse" of "for better, for worse"? Is faithful M just for the better times? It sure seems that way from so many of our stories.<p>When my H went through various difficult life events, I was there for him, I stood by him, I helped him in every way I could. I tried to help carry the load. I did not abandon him because he wasn't meeting my needs.

RE: "None of the 10 ENs that Harley describes will fulfill my need to not be abandoned, to be special, to be the one and only, to be valuable and not discardable."<p>Actually Harely does cover this but not as an EN. It is even more important then an EN in that it is one of his basic four rules that must be followed for a marriage to even continue?<p>The rules of honesty, protection, care and time. And then there this POJA. When a spouse agrees to following the MB concepts they must first agree to follow the rules and POJA. If they do not, then any attempts at meeting EN's is a false attempt. <p>If you do not feel protected and cared for by your H's behavior and he will not do anything and everything to make you feel that way, then you are not in recovery. You are still in Plan A? trying to get him to agree to do the things necessary to recover your marriage.

So far (1 week), he is following the rules with the exception of the delay of eliminating the OW's workplace from our lives. Technically I have myself to blame for that since I agreed to it without enthusiasm. The alternative is to force a separation until the season is over.<p>And of course, I can only assume the rule of honesty is being followed until I learn otherwise. I married him because I believed he was honest. Obviously I cannot trust my own perceptions.<p>I'm questioning the concepts. I don't see how the four rules protect me from abandonment. His abandonment took place first in his heart and mind before his body. I have no way of knowing now or in the future if he's being honest about what is going on in his mind. By the time I find out I'm abandoned, it's already been done. Someone could appear to be following the rules and actually not be.<p>Just like this time--he abandoned me in heart and mind long before he even met the OW. While in his head he considered himself single, to all outward appearance, he appeared married. Other than my "feeling" of abandonment, I had nothing concrete to point to to prove the validity of my feelings.<p>He could go through all the motions of seemingly following all the rules and POJA, and it doesn't necessarily mean it will last or that he's doing it because he loves me. He could be doing it because the alternative is a third divorce and facing his family with what he's done. It may have nothing to do with me, just that remaining married to me is the lesser of two evils.<p>Maybe if I had been ignorant of Harley's concepts until after the A, I might have a different perspective, feeling that I have tools now that I didn't have then and feel that I am more "lovable" now. But I was familiar with and practiced them for a long time before I couldn't keep up and then finally gave up. I'm not doing anything now any differently than I did for years. There's nothing different about me to make him suddenly love me in a whole new and reliable way or anything like that.<p>I'm in my 40s, so life still has the potential to throw a lot more at me. Where will my H be during menopause, the loss of my parents, the empty nest? And those are just the PREDICTABLE issues that will come up. What about the unpredictable? I have risk factors for heart disease, and I know people younger than I debilitated by it. Few of us come through life unscathed by things beyond our control that will interfere with our ability to meet our spouse's needs. What then? Just accept affairs as part of the natural order of events?<p>I'm probably having a MLC. Nothing in my life has turned out the way I planned or dreamed, and now I'm trying to figure out what, if any, of my original dreams are possible, and if not, what hopes and dreams ARE possible and can I change gears?<p>If all my hopes and dreams were unrealistic, which they appear to be, then why are they so universal, and why do so many of us have them in the first place if they can never be realized? Is it just some cruel cosmic trick to get us to reproduce and keep the species going for someone's entertainment?<p>I wonder if I will ever get over this feeling of having been conned and gypped. Even if the miraculous happens, and my H becomes attentive and loving and the fulfillment of my dreams in every other way, I'll always know that I'm getting less. He will be secure in the knowledge that he has never been replaced. I will always know I am disposable. I could probably get ANY man to "love" me if I did for him all I'm doing for my H, but what if a truck hits me, would any man love me then? Obviously my H won't.<p>I'm having a problem with this performance-based, conditional love, but of course, we all know it's true because of what we've been through, WS and BS alike. So, why are we taught all that unconditional love stuff all our lives? And why do some couples appear to actually have it, yet it's denied to the rest of us?<p>I knew a couple where the woman got Alzheimer's and other problems. Her husband took care of her impeccably. He made sure she was dressed the same as she always had been. He made sure her hair, make-up and nails were always done. He did these things because he knew that the woman he loved would be embarrassed if she wasn't presentable the way she always had been. Even though she was no longer cognizant of what she looked like, he did it for the her that she used to be.<p>He literally wore himself out taking care of her. He died the day of her funeral from undiagnosed cancer. He hung on as long as he had to to fulfill his love for her. Why can't the rest of us have a love story like that?<p>I know I can't put my M in the same category as their M, so what is my M? If it can't be that, then what is it and what is it for? Don't we all marry with that type of image in mind? Is it just for the chosen few? And how do we get to be one of the chosen?

Really well stated Conqueror!!<p>I feel exactly the same way.<p>For years, I tried to put my H's behavior behind me. In the back of my mind tho, I have always known I was "disposable" to him. I don't know why. I was always there for him. <p>This form of rejection is very hard to contend with. I am slowly, but surely coming to realize that he is not capable of loving me--or probably anyone in that manner.<p>I am deeply hurt. And I don't understand..but maybe it is time to find other avenues of love for me.<p>I would give anything to have my marriage back--but I wouldn't want it the way it was. There was no joy in it. I want to be loved and appreciated for me. I don't think I will ever get that from my H.<p>Just wanted to let you know, I understand your feelings...I am feeling the same way.

Conqueror, miserynmissouri - You guys speak clearly to me on this topic. <p>Conqueror - I hear your story about love, and about performance based response. I was very loving,a giver,public with my praise, etc, and was thoroughly berated, decieved and tossed. Plan A and B had no effect that I could tell ( I concede it could have been me? ) So..if not performance, what invites the love we want ? After all, some mates perform terribly in that capacity and recieve huge amounts of affection..<p>Big sigh here.. I've been thinking about SNL and his "fit" argument. Maybe that's the missing piece ...the catalyst that drives the reaction...<p>I hope for blessings to shower you; and that the love you want is there in abundance..<p>Dan<p>And y'know.. I hate this @%@%$#@ life that was forced on me also..now I guess I'll try to let that go..<p>[ January 30, 2002: Message edited by: Family Man ]</p>

Conqueror-<p>Life is like the coldest winter
People freeze the tears I cry
Words of hail their minds are into
I've got to crack this ice and fly <p>Gonna hitch a ride
Head for the other side
Leave it all behind
Never change my mind
Gonna sail away
Sun lights another day
Freedom on my mind
Carry me away for the last time<p>Not sure if this means anything to you, I just remember the words for some reason and it seemed to follow with what you are saying. Seems like you are ready to 'hitch a ride'.<p>You are a very deep-souled person, you have an ability to feel and articulate that most people can't even come close to, that is a very special quality. I think you have come to that point where you need to 'crack this ice and fly'. Try not to burden yourself about what the future may or may not bring. There are no guarantees in life, but that doesn't mean we stop trying, it should give us the strength to continue on. Give the future back to God, its His anyway.