I mean why do we HAVE to change of who we are because of someone else&#8217;s flaw? If WS did what they have done and/or are still doing it, then why they&#8217;re dragging us into it with them. If what we do or who we are is not what they want then why they don&#8217;t just say so instead of going behind our back and doing the unthinkable action. <p>Now in term of us, why do we keep up with this or try to change who we are because of their action? If we change too much we will not be who we are anymore and there will not be anything left of who we are. <p>Somehow we both (BS & WS) blame each other that we&#8217;re trying to control or change each other. <p>Some might say, &#8220;You don&#8217;t care about me or how I&#8217;ve felt for years and now because of what I have done, you just care about it now?&#8221;<p>Some might respond, &#8220;I didn&#8217;t know that was how you&#8217;ve felt about me or my action for all these years&#8221;<p>If we push for closeness then they think we&#8217;re trying to control them or see them as property because they are not ready to recommit. But it is OK with them for us to wait until they are ready. &#8220;For us to wait&#8221;, don&#8217;t you think it is a form of control too?<p>Well, I think I have said enough here. <p>So, what do you think?

I came to a conclusion long ago (prior to A)
that my H and I did not "fit".<p>He's a great person -- just not for me. I did not ask or want him to change. I did not demand or ask that he become someone different because I was disappointed in the mixture that was "us".<p>In fact, when our problems began I told him I don't want him to take a course of action because of me. I wanted him to remain true to himself, but acknowledge that it wasn't what I wanted in a husband. I wanted him to recognize it as I had. <p>And part of my reluctance to recover our marriage is that I don't want him to become a different person for me. And I don't think that any changes are a core part of who he is -- that the underlying core of himself will come back over time. <p>And do I demand or require his patience with me? No, I accept and realize that my actions and state of mind are the cause of our status. I only wish for acceptance on his part. <p>I don't want him to change for me....and I do not want to change for him.

Just my 2 cents....<p>I think we're trying to be a BETTER "us". Not a different "us". Right? And we DO have the choice whether or not to make changes. If we don't think we need to change, or WANT to change, then don't.<p>Harley says love is conditional. If you were green and purple with warts and fangs, [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] , you may not meet your spouse's needs. If you were abusive, you may not keep them for very long, because love bank withdrawals would outnumber the deposits. If you want to help your spouse remain in love with you, get rid of the warts and fangs [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] (not sure if you can change the purple and green color), and stop the abusive behavior.<p>I don't think you have to lose who you are to "win them back". But we should strive to be the BEST we can be, and strive to meet their needs.<p>Just my thoughts.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Lexxxy:
<strong>I came to a conclusion long ago (prior to A)
that my H and I did not "fit".<p>He's a great person -- just not for me. </strong><hr></blockquote><p>Lexxy---<p>I don't mean any disrespect, I just want to know so maybe I can understand some things myself...<p>If your quote is an accurate reflection of how you feel--which I assume it is--why did you marry him?<p>Or, what happened to get to the point that you felt you two didn't "fit."<p>I mean you must have felt that fit at one time, right?<p>Michelle Weiner Davis in Divorce Remedy says for the spouse who is contemplating leaving the marriage to think of when they got married. The thought at that time was that nothing could change the way you would feel about your spouse. She then says to think of the future now and realize that if those feelings of love at the outset could change...then why can't the feelings of out of love change back?<p>I hope you understand what I am saying...I didn't do a good job of relaying MWD's message, but the bottom line is if those feelings changed once...don't you think they can change back?<p>Like I said, I am not trying to diminish what you feel...only trying to understand...<p>E

Sure E -- I've thought alot about this topic.<p>H and I got engaged pretty quickly -- about 6 months after we started dating.<p>It was immediately after he had just gotten out of a long term relationship (4 years) with a girl who looks ALOT like me. So in hindsight, I've questioned the start of our relationship.<p>To go along with that, we got married really really young. I was barely 21. I feel that in a lot of ways we didn't approach this maturely. I didn't know his feelings on a lot of issues such as children, church, and career.<p>We were in "love" and thats all that mattered.<p>We had a baby almost immediately (9 months later -- surprise!). Well that brought a lot of things into focus for me. I wanted to be a good Mom and work less. Wasn't a possibility financially, and thats when his lack of a career path and ambition became an issue.<p>When it was time to baptise our child, and through his toddler years I longed for a church family and to participate and belong. H (for his own personal reasons) would not compromise or consider my need. This became a bigger issue as #2 baby and #3 baby came along. <p>Then, he left me to rear our children virtually alone -- and thats not to say that he didn't participate. But the onus was on me. I made all major decisions -- where they went to school, what activities they participated in, etc. I also got thrust into the role of home management and financial responsibility. Everything felt like it was on my shoulders (it was MY problem if we were out of toothpaste...lol...etc)<p>If you've read MWD -- I fit the Walk-away wife profile to a "t". I started having escape dreams a very long time ago. But thought that I would wait until the children were grown. I didn't "protect my own weakness" and was very susceptable to the affair.<p>Does this help to answer some of your questions E?

Lexxy<p>Thanks...Yeah it does answer the questions...<p>It doesn't really parallel my situation....I guess that's what we all are looking for.<p>MWD, Harley, all of the books I have read do acknowledge that for a variety of reasons not every marriage can be saved...<p>Sounds like you have made your decision after a lot of thought and consideration...<p>Thanks for the reply...<p>E

Thank you Lexxxy for your insight.
First of all, I hope that you don&#8217;t feel offend by what I have said here about how one might think that way. My intention is to understand a deep thought of a WS. In this case, it is more like a WAW&#8217;s thought. Like Elad said and you have already answered some of his questions, I still have more questions to ask or to understand.<p>When you said that you and your H didn&#8217;t &#8220;fit&#8221; and you already came to conclusion long ago even before the A, did you ever talk about it with your H then? Did your H realize that that was a problem? If he did, did you and your H seek help or try to get help about it? Or did you just come to your decision on your own that you and your H didn&#8217;t &#8220;fit&#8221;?<p>You also said that he&#8217;s a great person but he was not for you. In what sense was he a great person? If he was not for you, what type of a person were/are you looking for?<p>I understand that you didn&#8217;t ask or want him to change nor demand or ask him to become someone different than what he was/is. Did this have to do with being in control? I mean did you feel that he tried to control you or did you feel that you lost the power to control him? Power struggled between you two.<p>I also understand that you are afraid of his underlying core would come back and he would never change. Have you given that a chance to work before you came to this conclusion? Have you done anything different to make your H see that or allow him to make that adjustement or compromise to meet your needs?<p>Now, what I&#8217;m going to say next is just my thinking out loud. I think (forgive me if I&#8217;m wrong about this) that your H might feel like he has been stabbed in the back and the knife has never been pulled out and once in a while that knife has been twisted again and again. So in this case, his wound would never heel and he was too weak to pull that night out on his own or couldn&#8217;t find the way to pull it out. The only thing he could do was to just get angry at himself or someone around him who just stayed on the side line and only once a while kept twisting that knife. <p>Back to you, you said that you wish for acceptance on his part, what do you mean by this? IMHO, I think your H might realize and accept that his action in the past has contributed to the state of your M right now, but he might not want to accept the action that you are in right now. I believe all he wants from you is for you to acknowledge his pain that you have caused or help him to heel that pain.<p>Well, I think I have asked enough questions for now.<p>[ February 28, 2002: Message edited by: OffOnOnOff ]</p>

Lexxy _ Hi, I'm curious. Why do you think you had dreams of ecsape? Why was that an attractive option ? And..what did you feel you were/are escaping from?<p>I'm hearing you felt trapped..<p>Thanks<p>Dan

I hear ya lex, and for what it's worth you could pretty much just change the genders and I would be lexxy, I don't think this stuff is necesarily gender related either, it is about temperament, and a few other things. There is all kinds of marital issues, infidelity is a marital issue, as well as an individual issue, one kind of issue is when 2 basically normal decent people just simply cannot maintain (or be healthy in) an intimate relationship together...they don't fit...unfortuneately if the situation is allowed to continue (usually cause of children), infidelity is more likely, then the issue becomes the infidelity, when the indfidelity has absolutely nothing to do with anything.

Hi all,
I'm going to start with Family Man's questions then come back to you OOOO (its gonna take me longer!)<p>FM --
It became apparent to me within the first few years of our marriage that H and I had very different goals and ways to achieve them. <p>I am rather ambitious. Driven to achieve, want
the material rewards that goes with that, and to feel that I am walking the path that I envisioned for myself. Working my way up, so to speak. Meaning I want nicer cars, bigger house, plans for vacations and retirement over the course of my life. Eye on the next goal.<p>H is satisfied with less. Our tiny starter house was fine with him, never felt a need for more. Would stay with a job forever and never strive for a promotion or better paying job. Methodical, practical, responsible. Those are all good qualities. He is a good man.<p>I've always felt I was pushing him. I always felt that I wanted more than he did, and that I made him uncomfortable.<p>And why should I demand that he change? His goals are FINE, I just don't share them. I want something different. <p>And why does he need to change to be what I want?
Why can't we just accept that we aren't meant for
each other and let each other find and have what we really want.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>When you said that you and your H didn&#8217;t &#8220;fit&#8221; and you already came to conclusion long ago even before the A, did you ever talk about it with your H then? Did your H realize that that was a problem? If he did, did you and your H seek help or try to get help about it? Or did you just come to your decision on your own that you and your H didn&#8217;t &#8220;fit&#8221;?<hr></blockquote>
Yes, I did. I did make my unhappiness known. I did express my frustration, disappointment -- even the idea that we didn't fit. H was admittedly on coast mode -- thought he could skate by my concerns. I guess I was discounted. He knew the problems but chose to ignore them. Should I have been more diligent about pursuing a solution -- yes. Should I have done something about this before having an affair -- yes. I had my exit strategy planned, but it was after the kids were grown. I was very vulnerable to the affair, and I was in over my head before I knew it. It started as a way for my needs to be met, and it became so important to me so fast. I absolutely refused to give it up (giver snap). Why should I? I'd given everything already.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>You also said that he&#8217;s a great person but he was not for you. In what sense was he a great person? If he was not for you, what type of a person were/are you looking for?<hr></blockquote>As I said in my reply to FM, he's dependable, responsible, practical, smart, funny, etc. Some of those qualities "fit" and some don't. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I understand that you didn&#8217;t ask or want him to change nor demand or ask him to become someone different than what he was/is. Did this have to do with being in control? I mean did you feel that he tried to control you or did you feel that you lost the power to control him? Power struggled between you two.<hr></blockquote>I don't see this as a control issue (if anyone sees those signs please point it out to me!) He was never a controller -- in fact he let me run the show. And I guess I am more of a controller in nature. It comes naturally to me to be in charge. But I don't want to control him. I don't want him to behave in a certain way. I don't want to change him. I just want us to let go of each other (well I already have, so I guess what I want now is for him to let go of me) <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I also understand that you are afraid of his underlying core would come back and he would never change. Have you given that a chance to work before you came to this conclusion? Have you done anything different to make your H see that or allow him to make that adjustement or compromise to meet your needs?<hr></blockquote>I have practically begged him not to change for me. Like I said -- he is a good man. Who am I to say that he needs to be different? <p>I can think of a few examples. Career/Job related: I pushed him for years to make his (more mine) desire known to purchase the business from his boss. His pace was slower -- I know that I made him uncomfortable. He's out of his comfort zone, and I feel responsible for that. Although I know he's pleased and feels good about owning the business, I also know that there is an element of being overwhelmed. And now this is held out to me as an example of how he's changed. We own the business now -- how can I say he's not ambitious.<p>Another example, Church: In an earlier post on this thread, I talked about how much it meant to me to attend and participate in a Church family. I tried for years to make this happen with H. I gave up on him and took the kids myself. Now, he realizes how serious the issue is, he wants to start going. Wanted to find a new church.
Here again is a place where I refuse -- this is not a core part of who he is. Its just a reaction to save our marriage. Who am I to require that he be religious? I don't want him to change for me. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Now, what I&#8217;m going to say next is just my thinking out loud. I think (forgive me if I&#8217;m wrong about this) that your H might feel like he has been stabbed in the back and the knife has never been pulled out and once in a while that knife has been twisted again and again. So in this case, his wound would never heel and he was too weak to pull that night out on his own or couldn&#8217;t find the way to pull it out. The only thing he could do was to just get angry at himself or someone around him who just stayed on the side line and only once a while kept twisting that knife. <hr></blockquote>I'm assuming by this you are talking about the pain I have caused him by my affair, and my unwillingness to end it or work with him to restore our marriage. Yes I regret the order in which I've done things. I waffled far too long. And I regret the pain I've caused him. I was very conflicted, and there were times that I thought I wanted to stay married (mostly for the benefit of my children). I must say that when I was considering staying, it was not about recovering my relationship with my H -- but more about the other things -- kids, extended family, lifestyle, friends. And also it was about considering going back to my previous escape plan which meant only until the kids were grown. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Back to you, you said that you wish for acceptance on his part, what do you mean by this? IMHO, I think your H might realize and accept that his action in the past has contributed to the state of your M right now, but he might not want to accept the action that you are in right now. I believe all he wants from you is for you to acknowledge his pain that you have caused or help him to heel that pain. <hr></blockquote>You are right about him not accepting the stage that I am at right now. He is still hoping for recovery of our marriage. I must admit to being very reluctant to help him heal and here is why; because he has always interpreted those efforts as a sign that our marriage will recover. Every action or word I say is analyzed to death searching for hope. It never felt safe for me to exhibit the care and concern I have for him. Because I am resolved in my action, and I am tired of hurting and disappointing him over and over again.

OffOnOnOff said<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I mean why do we HAVE to change who we are because of someone else’s flaw? If what we do or who we are is not what they want then why they don’t just say so instead of going behind our back and doing the unthinkable action.
Now in term of us, why do we keep up with this or try to change who we are because of their action? If we change too much we will not be who we are anymore and there will not be anything left of who we are. <p> <hr></blockquote><p>I think your answer lies in looking at yourself to determine if who you are is really who YOU want to be? And then, do you want to be who YOU want to be, or do you want to be someone your WS will love?<p>There is a big difference. As our marriages develop, our spouses learn more and more about us. It is very possible we (BS) are NOT the person now our WS thought we were when they married us. But we should desire to be a person that our WS can love. Not necessarily "fall in love" with, but love, biblically, long term committmently.<p>So, we may have to change. And, try not to distinguish the flaw of having an A from other flaws. In my case, I did not have an A. Yet, I became a controller (flaw). I did not have an A. Yet I became financially irresponsible (flaw). I did not have an A. Yet I tried to be my kid's friend instead of their father (flaw). Get the picture. My flaws are no different than my wife's flaw of having the A. Yet she has been dealing with the consequences of my flaws, just as I deal with the consequences of hers.<p>Flaws are meant to be corrected. And even if we may not agree that we have a flaw, if it hurts our marriage, or our spouse percieves it as a flaw, it is a flaw that must be corrected.<p>Bottom line for me: if I am not willing to take the plank out of my own eye, before I point out the speck in my WS's eye, then I don't want to be marrried to my WS. But, for me, I WANT TO BE MARRIED, FOREVER, to my wife.<p>[ February 28, 2002: Message edited by: Boppo57 ]<p>[ February 28, 2002: Message edited by: Boppo57 ]</p>

sad_n_lonely,<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>There is all kinds of marital issues, infidelity is a marital issue, as well as an individual issue, one kind of issue is when 2 basically normal decent people just simply cannot maintain (or be healthy in) an intimate relationship together...they don't fit...
<hr></blockquote>
I agree with you that all kinds of marital issues exit within the marriage. But when you said that when 2 basically normal decent people can&#8217;t maintain an intimate relationship together, they don&#8217;t &#8220;fit&#8221;. I see it this way. If you are a &#8220;normal decent&#8221; person then you would try to &#8220;fit&#8221; or at least meet each other halfway in your relationship. There must be something not quite right with that &#8220;normal decent&#8221; behavior to prevent you from maintaining an intimate relationship. Nobody will &#8220;fit&#8221; together as nuts and bolts, even nuts and bolts would have to be made to fit them together. That&#8217;s why the real &#8220;normal decent&#8221; people who maintain their intimate relationship have to &#8220;make = compromise&#8221; to &#8220;fit&#8221;.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
unfortuneately if the situation is allowed to continue (usually cause of children), infidelity is more likely, then the issue becomes the infidelity, when the indfidelity has absolutely nothing to do with anything.
<hr></blockquote>
Well, it might be true that infidelity has absolutely nothing to do with anything if the situation is allowed to continue, providing that if and only if the issue of infidelity is being resolved or worked on from both sides. If it is not it definitely will become an issue, in my opinion.<p>No one wants to be unhappy in a relationship. If the situation is allowed to continue, don&#8217;t you think it is some type of punishments?

oooo, the problem with finding common ground on the fit issue is base assumptions. One general school of thought is anyone can be married to anyone (assuming married means some special state of intimacy, not just simply peaceful cohabitation), and that it is all about behaviour, attitude, valuing differences etc...<p>The other general point of view is psychology matters, that we can have a range of normal decent behaviour, and that indeed the range is necessary to our speicies survival. (we will overlook actual mental illness, sociopathic dysfunction, personality disorders for the moment).. but that of this pool of normal decent people, it matters who they try to form the pairbond of marriage with...that psychology is a synergistic quality of coupling, and can work for or against the well-being of the individuals. If the synergy is good enough, you have the emotional bond we call in-love....if just so so, you have this caring thing, but stuff is missing, if it is not so good, you have otherwise decent people behaving badly under the tremendous stress of trying to fit square pegs in round holes.<p>Clearly people in-love have it made, they did it right, and will weather the travails of marriage fairly easily, the large group in the middle will have varying degrees of success, will never be in-love, but may be able to craft a successful co-habitation (and is fertile ground for MB application), but depends on where they are on the scale...the lower end needs to be divorced, they may be good friends, and great co-parents, but they will only be a source of great stress, and loneliness trying to be intimate. This is simplistic, and all this is gray, but this is the view it does matter who you are married to, in an immutable sense.<p>I obviously discuss/argue from the fit mindset, that is my reality, the way I think life works... others argue from the mindset it makes no difference you are married too, it is all about skills, attititude, motivation, committment, and if the marriage fails it is cause somebody just didn't try hard enough (and is therefore defective in some way), MB encourages this mindset, maybe not on purpose, but it does all the same. So obviously there is going to be a lot of friction when you get down to how best to resolve marital dysfunction, and have both mindsets offering insight, and advice.<p>Personally I think we all know it does matter, I know no one who would accept the notion of not having a say in who they marry, even if one was confident the harleys picked out a mate for them that was an expert at MB and would apply them well, I doubt few would accept that as a lifetime decision (assuming divorce were impossible)....right?<p>So we all know this, but when our spouse says I am not sure I really want to be married to you, I love you (care about you), but I am not in-love with you, everyone goes berserk, and says let me try, I will make you love me.....???? How do you do that, make someone love you? Humans are messy enough, we often get lost and confused in our emotions, and we can be manipulated, and manipulative, as well as act against our best interests (be that staying OR leaveing) so the whole thing ends up a huge mess, and hard to unravel, cause like it or not, most people think of their spouse as THEIRS, their propery, their gaurantee (vows again), and by gosh, they are not going to escape, or be lured away...blah blah blah. Instead what we should focus on, is should they be married, who are these two people, how do they fit, instead of focusing solely on changing behaviour, and making it work no matter what....you need both IMO, and you need a lot of societal support for divorce, but the right kind of divorce, not just cut and run divorce....then you will have healthy happy people, who know who they are, and can do a better job of mate selection, and everyone will be much better off. It is so interesting to see the stories here and posts from those who want the marriage, and how in-love they are, and how destroyed they are, yet after divorce and some healing (if they do the work) report back how happy they are, and about some new love of their life...what is that all about?<p>oooo....I agree with you that all kinds of marital issues exit within the marriage. But when you said that when 2 basically normal decent people can’t maintain an intimate relationship together, they don’t “fit”. I see it this way. If you are a “normal decent” person then you would try to “fit” or at least meet each other halfway in your relationship. <p>snl..Why? Why would you try to meet halfway, this is not a negotiation, a business arrangement, this is about safe, nurturing life...if you have "fixed" yourself (cause we all have issues), and you don't fit your spouse, why change who you are (assuming you like who you are) just for the sake of marriage? And further why expect them to change? I am in total agreement with lexxy, I do not want my w to change anything, I want her to be who she is, and do nothing just for me, I am not sure everyone really understands what lexxy (and I) mean by that...do you? If you try to change for the marriage, that makes the marriage the important entity, and not the people in it....marriage is totally irrelevant, and not worthy of any consideration at all, it is a madeup living arrangement humans invented...what is important is the mental health of the people in the marriage, and that is all that is important...so there is no reason to "save" the marriage, unless doing so is in the best interest of BOTH individuals (sacrificial marriage is a no no, has to be an enthusiastic choice of both).<p>oooo...There must be something not quite right with that “normal decent” behavior to prevent you from maintaining an intimate relationship. Nobody will “fit” together as nuts and bolts, even nuts and bolts would have to be made to fit them together. That’s why the real “normal decent” people who maintain their intimate relationship have to “make = compromise” to “fit”.<p>snl...Ok, back to difference in underlying assumptions. You think love is a decision, I (and those who view marriage as I do) do not think it is a decision, cohabitation is a decision, settleing is a decision, in-love is not, you either fit or you don't, the two are very different things.... many will settle, it is pragmatic solution, security counts, 2 are safer than one...I use to think that was terrible, I no longer do, it is a legitimate choice...and is why MB is about bs selling themselves as the best "deal", it may very well be true. But everything comes at a cost, and the cost of settleing is you will never be in-love, cause you do not fit well enough to achieve that state...you will always know it too, that something is missing, but you put that away, and give thanks for what you have.<p>snl quote....unfortuneately if the situation is allowed to continue (usually cause of children), infidelity is more likely, then the issue becomes the infidelity, when the indfidelity has absolutely nothing to do with anything.<p>oooo...Well, it might be true that infidelity has absolutely nothing to do with anything if the situation is allowed to continue, providing that if and only if the issue of infidelity is being resolved or worked on from both sides. If it is not it definitely will become an issue, in my opinion.<p>snl...let me rephrase, infidelity can become one of the marital issues, if the ws will not focus on the marriage...but it is not the reason the marriage failed....if the ws focuses on the marriage, and the bs is stuck on the infidelity, is same as ws continuing it....however, that infidelity occured is part of the issues, must be understood, and decided about, but only in the context of the larger problem, why doesn't the marriage work.<p>ooo...No one wants to be unhappy in a relationship. <p>snl... I wish that were true, it is not. But normal people do not want to be unhappy.<p>oooo....If the situation is allowed to continue, don’t you think it is some type of punishments?<p>snl...No I don't. I don't think people really punish each other, maybe spontaneously in the heat of an argument, or a momentary lapse of judgement....but to pursue an affair to punish a spouse is montrous, such an individual is a very sick puppy and one should get away from them as soon as possible....no most affairs continue on out of confusion over what one wants, and how best to resolve ones life... a bs might feel punished, but that is their own selfishness speaking...they are being emotionally abused though, and should take action to defend themselves..... most affairs have nothing to do with the bs, in fact the bs is hardly thought of at all....this is about the ws/op and what they want...as is most of life actually, including the bs, who wants what they want too, and tries everything to get it (their ws back, and focused on them usually)....it is all the same, humans just do what they want (all of us) and jockey for position by invoking various rules (ie morals, ethics, vows, whatever)....the purpose of said rules being to get others to do what you want em too....such is the nature of being human.

RE: I mean why do we HAVE to change of who we are because of someone else’s flaw?<p>This is a misinterpretation of what MB is about. MB does not ask that anyone change because of anyone else’s flaws. Puts total responsibility for an affair on the person who chooses to have the affair. The BS has no responsibility what so ever for the affair.<p>On the other hand both spouses share the responsibility for the good and the bad state of the marriage.<p>As for what’s wrong with being who we are? Well nothing really. But I think it’s human nature to keep going done a path as long as we receive no resistance. This means that if we are engaged in bad/stupid/inconsiderate/etc behavior, we are going to keep it up until we get really obnoxious. Well that is until someone comes along and tells us that we are being obnoxious. A relationship is compromise fine-tuned by the constant feedback of the individuals involved.<p>What does is says that if, despite an affair, you want to save a marriage, both spouses need to find out what the other needs and what they see as love busters. Then by working on these, filling each other’s Ens and stopping love busting behavior, the marriage can be repaired.<p>If you are only making changes in yourself to compensate for you spouse’s affair, then you are not following the MB principles and will probably have trouble recovering your marriage.<p>[ February 28, 2002: Message edited by: zorweb ]</p>

SNL,
I would love if you could show WHERE in this forum ANYONE has ever said that "you could be married to anyone and make it work". The Harley's don't teach this, and I don't remember anyone ever saying that.<p>I believe you are holding the 2 theories at extremes, either you believe in (A) ultimate "fit", or you believe (B) you can be married anyone. Just because some of us don't believe in "fit", doesn't mean that any of us have ever said we can be married to anyone. <p>When you say a couple must "fit", I assume that YOU believe that God created only ONE perfect mate for us. Is that what you believe? <p>We (I) have said that once a couple "fits" enough to choose each other, and live together in harmony for x number of years (not PERFECT harmony... it doesn't exist.. people aren't perfect), then WHY can't they learn enough - adjust enough - stretch and grow enough - to continue living in harmony?

faith...SNL,I would love if you could show WHERE in this forum ANYONE has ever said that "you could be married to anyone and make it work".<p>snl..There are people here who say that. That any two normal, functional people can be married. And that they beleive it is all about attitude committment behaviour etc.... ask the question in a post, someone will say yes.... and many of the people who post her imply it, they claim they are in-love with their spouse, and would love it to work, and will do anything to do so...why? They often are making huge concessions re fit, they just are accepting their spouse, and if they will just try a little they will be satisfied, IMO what they are in-love with is being in-love, or maintaining the picture they have, they really aren't that concerned who their spouse really is in minute detail, as long as they show up, and meet some minimum amount of needs, they will love em...so could be anyone...ask em why they love their spouse, and they often reply cause they are my H of my W....so what does that mean, they would love whoever they are married too, just cause they are married to them? Remove that spouse, and let em marry someone else, now who do they love, and why? The new spouse or the old spouse, and who should they be married too? That is essentially the notion it makes no difference who are married too, or how well you fit, only that you somehow got a pices of paper from the govt. saying you are married.<p>faith...The Harley's don't teach this, and I don't remember anyone ever saying that.<p>snl..They do not teach it explicityly, but in counselling they exert incredible pressure to stay in the marriage, and are not very receptive to the notion the marriage doesn't fit....they also say the best person to be in-love with is the mother/father of your children, this makes no sense, so you get raped and have a child and that is who you should love (a practice in some middle eastern countries by the way), or are married to any of a huge list of abusive/dysfunctional type mates, it is wonderful to be in-love with the other parent, but that does not mean they are your best fit, they are just who you procreated with in the most basic sense, and humans can literally do that with anyone, we do fit anyone in that basic sense.... also there is nothing in their materials encourageing people to assess whether they really are good for each other, their view is any marriage is ok (if people are normal) and can be a safe, nurturing place if you practice their principles, they do not deal with whether you want to do this or not.... All this is ok, that is their professional position, that essentially it makes no difference who you are married too, and it comes out in how they apply the principles, as it should. You cannot beleive both positions faith, it is one or the other. I have had to work through this, cause I never really had, but now I am sure, the quality of a marriage, all other things being equal, is directly related to how well you fit, and we each set that bar where we feel we need too, and that is ok, one must do so. The higher you set it, the less likely you will find that kind of marriage, so it is all about odds and risk faith, like most of life...I set the bar very very high. I do not want to be in a settled marriage, a comfortable marriage.... I realize I went into it set high, I just did not understand, but few of us do cause no one trains us in it, when 2 people set the bar close, problems are more easily resolved, and an accomodation crafted, when far apart, there is little can be done.<p>faith...I believe you are holding the 2 theories at extremes, either you believe in (A) ultimate "fit", or you believe (B) you can be married anyone. Just because some of us don't believe in "fit", doesn't mean that any of us have ever said we can be married to anyone. <p>snl...Then you believe in fit. Unless you are willing to be married to anyone (who is normal, and practices MB principles).<p>faith...When you say a couple must "fit", I assume that YOU believe that God created only ONE perfect mate for us. Is that what you believe? <p>snl....That is a hard question, and no way to find the true answer, I think it is possible God does have plans for us, including marital plans, I am just not sure. As for secularly, I think fit varies, some people can fit more easily to a larger pool of temperaments, others a much smaller pool, which makes sense for reasons won't go into...but the pool in all cases is finite, and fairly small methinks (as a % of people one is likely to meet and know well enough to consider as a mate).<p>faith...We (I) have said that once a couple "fits" enough to choose each other, and live together in harmony for x number of years (not PERFECT harmony... it doesn't exist.. people aren't perfect), then WHY can't they learn enough - adjust enough - stretch and grow enough - to continue living in harmony?<p>snl..Maybe they can, and maybe they have just barely hung on because of ignorance, fear, committment to children, etc. and it is time to recognize that, and simply be friends (assuming fit well enough for that, a much easier standard to meet), and co-parents, being supportive of each other, still meeting appropriate needs, but not trying to maintain a much more difficult and complex fit.....intimacy. I really don't understand the um.... anger about a lot of this, divorce is not death, no one is being put to the stake, and if all economic issues are ok, and each treats the other with caring (supposedly they care right?) then why is divorce so terrible to many....when two people divorce the only thing that changes (unless they fight, and are hateful to each other) is they don't try to continue the dysfunctional intimacy they had, and are ethically/morally available to find that with someone else, if they choose... doing it in an affiar is a betrayal of expectations, so anger is understandable, but if people divorce cause one (or both) is not happy at that level of intimacy, what else can you do? Why try to make two people fit (usually be convincing one it doesn't really matter, thereby discounting their feelings), and try to pressure them into behavioural changes.<p>I have the same problem lexxy (and others in our position have).... the more I "do" the better my w feels, and the more hope she has. She is unwilling to join me in assessing whether we should be married, that is unacceptable to her, and causes huge fights, it feels to me like my stuff is irrelevant, my stuff never gets talked about, or validated, my reality is marriage has to be enthusiastically chosen, that is not where I am at....and the more I do, the more trapped I feel, cause the angrier my w gets if I pull back any, accusing me of not being sincere, and a whole litany of other stuff proving what an ******* I am..... I am left with an impossible dilemma, either accept marriage is a life sentence, and do the work to make it as good as possible, and I can do that, I know how, and keep my feelings to myself (violating radical honesty)...or accept we simply do not fit in some important psychological ways, and leave knowing she will hate me forever....but then I ask myself, why do I want to be married to anyone capable of hating like that anyways.... that is what co-dependentcy is all about, and I think co-denpentcy is often the outcome of marriages that do not fit well. Both of us are decent normal people with lots of good traits, and function quite well, together we are a disaster....now we can just assume that is because we both just need to be "fixed"....or is because we do not fit well enough to meet the standards required for sucessful intimacy. <p>I was willing to check this out, and I have, and I believe the latter. Like lexxy, I do not want to hurt my wife any more, and I do not want her to change anything she is fine the way she is. I wish we had divorced before the affair (that was where we were headed), and I don't want to hurt her now with a lot of false hope by doing anymore stuff.... I just want us to amicably resolve the practial issues of divorce (something she refuses to do, and is very very angry), cooperate with many things we need to do, and quit having the awful, horrific "talks" that are a daily occurence any more.... and just pull back from trying to be something that does not work for either of us...I don't hate her, have every intention and desire to be on good terms and supportive of her, be responsible for the economic responsibilities I have to her, and care a lot for her....but that is up to her, mostly she seems intent on destroying me, and punishing me any way she can. IMO we need a divorce between us, if for no reason then to mark a clear line of demarkation, if we are every to unravel the mess we made of our lives, it is going to have to be with us both as free agents. The anger and pressure is killing me, I need space, and so does she..... her life does not depend on being married to me, and I cannot take the pressure of being solely responsible for her well-being anymore, I did it for 30 years, I can't do it any longer.....once upon a time, I thought I could, it was a terrible mistake, but I cannot go back, neither can she, she can hate me or not, that is up to her.<p>[ February 28, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]<p>[ February 28, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>

So you want a divorce, have you told Steve, instead of saying I will do this, I will do that, and then here state that you don't want to do anything but get a divorce.<p>As far as last week, he said he wanted both of us here, that is why he stayed here since April when Jennifer told SNL to get out of the house 3 different times.<p>Like getting things done around here, SNL as you can see is posting all day, didn't go out on a service call. Sometime this afternoon, he said he would clean off the table. He said he cleaned it, but no one can sit at the table and eat, we haven't had a meal at the table for well over 2 months. Anyways, when I was downstairs, folding clothes and then going back up, he says, I have the table cleaned and am ready to do the bills and I said I am busy. I was home all morning, didn't bother him, cause of course he is on the computer but when I told him not now I have things to do. He went ballistic, called me a bad name, said what I am doing is NOT important. I said to him, your sitting here on the computer is so important. Like the other day, he only sees me as an organizer for him. That as you have seen stated in his post true. I am nothing else. <p>I will talk about my H's OW - they didn't fall in-love with each other until they were making efforts to meet each others needs. I bet if you were to talk to Debi now, she would say things like I did that just to please him, and that was it. I am sure you did things to please her, and this is not fitting, this is meeting each others emotional needs. <p>Well, there are things that each of us has to change. When one is unwilling to change, there is disharmony. When one doesn't follow the MB stuff, what do you expect. Also the name calling is getting out of hand, told H just a few minutes ago that the name calling has to stop. Stop calling me names, and others. It has to stop!!<p>Like on one of the other posts says, the WS have it all, one woman at home to take care of all the things there and the other woman for your conversation and adultery. <p>Well, like Steve Harley said, SNL has no path. Two people can make a marriage work, but there is the give and take. Also, what you wanted 10 years ago is not the same as what you want today. No one is ever the person they want to be totally. Changes have to be made constantly. This is a human resource to see that changes need to be made. <p>So you have diabetes now that you are older. You didn't have it earlier. So don't make the change and see what happens. Where is looking at what would be better, and what a change can do to make the picture better. If you don't change your eating habit, you will die. If you don't take and test your blood every day x3 you could go into shock. You have to make changes in your movements of body, if there is something sore, or you have a cut. Changes are done all the time. <p>Initially we are who we are, but doesn't mean you have to be that way. Like when you were a baby, did you tell your mother I don't want my diaper changed? NO! When you were suppose to walk, did you say I am going to walk now, it happened cause you wanted the change of crawling and seeing everyone else getting places faster, so you decided to try walking.

My opinion, and it is directly related to OOOO's topic/question here is that "you can be married to anyone who meets your needs more than they love-bust." Isn't that the Harley basics??? <p>I can't be happily married to someone who doesn't meet my needs for financial security, SF, recreation, conversation, etc etc., ESPECIALLY if they display angry outbursts and selfish demands all the time. Aren't you saying the same thing, snl? <p>OOOO's question, and yours and Thinker's situation is all about striving to meet the needs of your spouse and avoiding LB's. If you and Thinker aren't WILLING to learn these things, and DO THEM, then no, there's no way you can fit, and live "happily ever after". Can an old dog learn new tricks? Can you learn to treat each other differently? <p>But you have to WANT to. You have to feel motivated to learn and change. Some of us here believe the commitment to the marriage is reason enough. Reason enough to learn and grow. The love you once shared may be reason enough. Scripture may be reason enough. Children may be reason enough. (Why not? Some people get married for a baby, once they "accidently" get pregnant. Why not STAY married for the "baby".) But if YOU don't feel that you have any reason to learn, change and grow, to meet your spouse's needs, or to become a better person (perhaps you believe you are the best person you can be, and those traits your spouse hates are perfectly fine for you and anyone else)... (not YOU, snl, but anyone [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] )<p>snl, you are not wrong. These are your opinions and feelings. I'm not trying to change your mind - really I'm not. But you are obviously still searching for answers... perhaps we're all helping each other find answers. If your only "reason" for staying married is because you don't want to hurt Thinker, then you certainly DO still have some things to decide. That may be reason enough to stay married and work on yourself. You are hurting her now, by staying married and running around in circles trying to figure everything out. You are hurting each other with your daily fights. All of this is ok temporarily - it doesn't mean the marriage has to end. But if you are both pushing and pushing, and neither one giving in, then you will get nowhere. You both need to be working on yourselves, instead of expecting something from the other. <p>Anyway... enough of that. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] I may be back later with answers to specific points of yours.

SNL,<p>You said: <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>snl..There are people here who say that. That any two normal, functional people can be married. <hr></blockquote><p>I have been reading here for over 3 years and posting for over 2.5 years. You are the only person I have ever heard say this. No one else even implies it.<p>What is missing from the discussion of the Harley approach is that there is an implicit assumption that when people married they did love each other and want the best for each other. Clearly, this often deteriorates. But, the point is by meeting needs there is a significant chance that this love can be "uncovered", "rekindled". These people did "fit" (using your term) to some degree before the marriage. So we are not often talking about seriously mismatched people. They may become mismatched and that is the purpose of the introspection that is suggested in Plan A.<p>What makes your statement even more ludicrous is that even Harley claims that infidelity can and should end some marriages. Not all marriages can be saved. What they do claim is that many of the marriages that DO fail could be saved with some attention to what each person in the marriage needs to feel connected and good about the relationship.<p>I am sick of hearing this twisted into some strange statement that you can just fall in love with anyone by being nice to them. Now there is better than even money my experiences in this department exceed yours. So I will say from my experience you can by being nice, courteous, pleasant, and helpful to people make a lot of friends and even deep friends. BUT, one doesn't want to marry all of them or perhaps any of them.<p>So please stop the proof by extreme example, especially when the extreme example is not true. <p>God Bless,<p>JL