I posted this Friday, but got no replies.......this isn't going very well, to put it mildly!

I have a question for any experienced BS. I was hoping we had entered recovery, but maybe we're still in Plan A.....not sure at all today. Sorry this is so long......
My H also works with the OW. He's a flooring specialist at a national chain of home improvement warehouse store. OW is a head cashier. He's top is sales regionally for past 2 years--hero of the whole store. Very charasmatic, charming. EVERYONE in the store LOVES him. OW thinks she's got the captain of the football team! It seems to be a BIG EA. I've really had my doubts, but beyond maybe a kiss (he's been very vague about that) or something it does not seem to have gotten sexual. He SWEARS it never got there. <p>It started last fall with them going out with a group after work to bars to de-stress. H has problems with alcohol. I don't drink at all and have a big problem with him drinking. There lies a big EN that she filled. She sat with him and drank a couple of beers with him. A few times I've tried going with him, but watching him drink is so painful it has never turned out well. He also wants to close the bars (i.e. stay till closing time). It's such a huge waste of time I wind up miserable and it shows no matter what I do to paste on a smile. Also, H says OW really hates for him to drink so she tries to get him not to drink so much. Anytime I've tried that in a bar with him he just got VERY ANGRY. She told me once that she was only trying to look out for him. I told her he didn't need 'looking out for.' He's 49 and has been fine so far without her help.<p>He refused to admit their relationship was anything but 'friends.' I knew better. I felt she was very serious about him in a much deeper way. I spoke with her on the phone 4 times about my problems with their going out to lunch together (alone in her car), my problem with her calling him on his cell phone on his way in to work, my problem with her going to bars with him (alone & in a group). She would promise they were only friends and that she would stop calling, being alone with him, etc. Then it never stopped. A 'friend' does not put your M at risk, especially when asked to stop doing certain things point blank by the W. H would say there was NOTHING going on except talking, so what could be wrong with it? He said he didn't even see her as a woman, etc, just a friend. I told him she might feel differently, but he couldn't see it. (So he said.) She called him every morning on his way to work. (Our cell phone accounts are online and I knew his password.)<p>I drove around looking for him when he was late a few times and found him sitting in her car. Just sitting there talking. I didn't like that one little bit, but I still didn't have any proof it was A. (I had never heard of EA till reading about it recently when I found the MB site!)<p>Finally 2 weeks ago I put a tiny recorder in his truck and was able to tape H side of 2 cell phone conversations with OW. Heard him laughing about giving me his promise to stop seeing her. They weren't just talking about work like he'd always said. They were talking about how they could keep seeing each other and laughing at me. That did it to me. Actually hearing him laugh at me. It hurt so bad I almost couldn't function. Three days later I hired a private investigator to find proof of a PA. So far he's found nothing. Maybe it really is just an EA. H found the recorder and it was BAD for a little while, but I was able to tell him what I'd heard and no longer could he hide behind the 'friend' excuse anymore. He started to admit that the relationship had 'taken on a life of its own' and he said he didn't plan it or mean for it to get so serious. He told me how important I was, that he loved me and didn't want to lose me. He also said she was very important to him and he didn't want to lose their friendship, or 'hurt her.' I was Plan A-ing my behind off.....it sucks, it's really HARD WORK and NOT FAIR in the least, but it's what I chose to do to give our M every chance to survive. We've been M 30 years and have 5 kids, 3 grandkids--there's 12 in our immediate family! It came down to H wanted his cake and eat it too!<p>He very reluctantly agreed to go with me to MC last Thursday. MC came very highly recommended. If my problem with H was leaving dirty socks on the floor, he would have been great. Our problems seemed out of his league. Told my H that a marriage can't survive with a girlfriend involved. DUH Told me we had to come to a decision about a date for it to be over (the OW thing), then I had to 'begin the trusting process.' Didn't say how to do that. Told me I'd "know" if he hadn't really ended it with her. I asked 'how? he's lied to me all the time about the whole thing; I still wouldn't be clued in if I hadn't hid the tape recorder.' He said I would just 'know.' He didn't set up another appointment. Handed us his card and told us if we wanted to talk another time to just call him. Gee thanks.<p>On the way home my H said he didn't tell us anything we didn't already know. I said I know. I was so disappointed I wanted just to cry. Biggest waste of time and money ever. We were going out of town the next day--Good Friday--to go with our daughter to visit her husband in basic training at Family Day on the army base. H didn't contact OW that day (Thursday), even though she wanted to see him before MC appointment (he told her about it) AND before going out of town with me. <p>We had a great 3 day weekend. I took articles printed from MB site about Recovery from Infidelity #s 1, 2 & 3 and he agreed for me to read to him on our 3 hour drive there. He seemed really speechless. Said it explained what had happeded exactly. On the way home I read him the ENQ and he told me his answers. I had already filled out my ENQ and read him my answers. There's very little I'm not meeting, but the recreational companionship thing about going with him to drink was one...... While at the hotel we had wonderful sex. I took some really playful things to wear, etc. One thing the Lord has done in me after finding out about their friendship last fall is show me that I needed to really be willing to meet his needs about certain aspects of our intimate life. I have done what I felt led to do and our sex life has never been better. Maybe that did protect H from EA going to a PA. Couldn't have hurt. I knew I had an edge on OW there! <p>We talked about H going back to work Monday. I felt OW would pull out all stops, feeling that she was losing him. He thought she'd be mad he hadn't seen or called her Thursday and just wouldn't speak to him. Dream on......<p>She left the sickest note in his locker about how she had had the worst weekend cause she hadn't been able to talk to him, all she did was think about him. Begged him to meet her after work. Said she HAD to know how he felt about her, that she loved him .....it was like a note a 16 year old would write; not a 49 year old woman married for 28 years! He brought it home to show me, BUT he met her after work! Didn't call about not coming home from work or anything.....I was sick thinking what might be happening. Came home at 2 AM drunk as could be, talking about how sorry he was, but he cared so much about her. He said he could NOT stop seeing her. No way. Said she wanted me to 'share him.' UGH<p>Tuesday morning we had it out, but I was calm. He mentioned moving out. I told him I loved him, but at this point all I wanted from him was a decison about what he wanted to do. That I couldn't live with his lies or feeling his betrayal indefinitely. I was really ready for Plan B. He called on his way to work and said he wanted us to get thru this together. That that was all he wanted. Offered to call in to work and come home, but I told him what would that solve? She'll still be at work tomorrow.....<p>The PI was watching them that day, but drove around the store to get another parking space and when he got back around both their vehicles were gone! I called the store to talk to see if he really wasn't there and they told me it was his day off! UGH the feeling in the pit of my stomach. The PI drove all over town looking for his truck and her car but found nothing. I left a message on H cell phone that I knew he wasn't at work and wanted to know where he was. An hour later he called and said he'd just ended it with her. Said he'd told her it was too much trouble. Not what I'd chosen for him to tell her, but it was the first time he'd ever said he'd told her that. He always said he had to work it out, do it his way, etc.<p>Wednesday (4/4, the day after he told her it was over) she waited for him to come out of the store and asked him if she could talk to ME about still being able to talk. Said she'd promise me that it would never be anything physical. Said I could have all the sex part. Wasn't that kind of her? I laughed and told him 'I don't think so.' He said he told her he thought what I had the problem with was the time he spent with her. Guess he finally heard me. <p>I can tell she's not finished with EA. She's still trying to figure out a way to be able to see him/talk to him. I told him that Wed. night and he agreed. He also said "I hope I can do this." I did not want to hear him say that. <p>I guess my question is.....We're not in recovery yet, are we? I'm giving him the option of quitting his job. I have daycare in our home and pretty much pay all the bills. His money is for groceries, remodeling projects, benefits like insurance, etc. He just got a big raise last week so I know he hates to quit. Like someone else said, I don't want him to resent me for making him quit. But with her still in the picture and really infatuated with him, I have a real hard time seeing him drive off to work. And what do I do with his EN for recreational companionship that I don't meet? We go out to eat and shop, etc., but going out with him while he drinks seems to be something he knows I can't do and doesn't even allow me to do. (I sort of have to be invited to be there with him.)<p>Thanks so much. I know I'll be okay no matter what happens, but I've put a lot into this M and don't want to just throw in the towel. He says he loves me, and acts like it most of the time. I'm just really tired of this being my total focus. I'm exhausted thinking about it all the time. I want to get past it, but only time can do that I know. And I guess I'm afraid of what the future will bring. I'm not talking about it unless he brings it up, but I still blow it occasionally. How do you fill your need to know what's going on without LBing? My H seems to think that he's ended it, I shouldn't be thinking about it all the time. Then sometimes he says he understands, but it's clear he doesn't quite get it. He says he's trying to tell me what she says, etc. But I have this fear that he's leaving a lot out.....<p>By the way, OWH told her he didn't care about her going out to lunch, drinking, talking to my H as long as it didn't "enfringe on his time." OW told my H a while back that she was sort of jealous about how much I hated their relationship. She said no one cared about what she did. H said Wednesday night when he was telling me what she said, that he sees what I said about her being starved for attention is true and he feels sorry for her. Yikes, that's not what I wanted to hear either, but at least he's talking to me about it, honestly this time I hope.<p>What do you guys think? I'm trying to Plan A my behind off, but don't know how long I can wonder if he's done with her or not.<p>God Bless you all~
amazingrace

To me, it doesn't sound like you are in recovery yet, but, it sure looks like the two of you are headed that way! From what I read, your H is really opening up to you, sharing with you a lot of information about what has/is going on and I think that is commendable. You also seem like you are handling all of this well and should be proud of yourself. Sure, you have LB-ed, we all have, its understandable, but it seems that when you do LB, you admit it, figure out why it happened, and move on.<p>I would agree that H is having an EA, the proof is there. But a PA?, its hard to say, but IMHO, it doesn't look like that has happened. H has really become attached to OW and her to him. I couldn't tell you the reason, but I would guess it is a combination, his age (MLC?), the drinking and the fact that he can confide in her things he probably is uncomfortable telling you. But, he is obviously comfortable enough with you to tell you what is going on and that is a big advantage in your favor. My WW is also being very open with me, telling me almost everything that happened between her and OM and I think that is a true indication of the love they have for us. They want us to fully understand what happened and this is the only way to do it. It also seems that H is asking you for help, wanting you to help him figure out what to do, how to end it, that's another plus for you.<p>My advice, stop talking to OW if you haven't already. Don't divulge any more information to her about what you and H are doing, let her suspicion and paranoia start to eat away at her. Keep your Plan A going strong so that H can see the changes you are making and realize what a jewel he has in you. It looks like maybe OW is starting to get desperate and is beginning to get clingly and demanding to H, a definite turn-off!<p>The only answer I can give you as to why H cant completely break it off is because he is a man. You know us guys don't like to admit our mistakes or faults, and, she is probably stroking his ego big time, making him feel like the king of the world. <p>AG- give it time, it really looks like this relationship is about to come to a screeching halt. Don't force the issue with H, let OW do all the dirty work for you. You are in a lot better position than quite a few of us here are. Let H talk to you as much as he wants, be his friend above all else and keep giving him an environment where he is comfortable being with you.<p>Also, I don't know if the PI is really necessary anymore. Let you gut tell you if H is telling you the truth, its a lot more reliable than any PI can be.
[img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

I would settle for nothing less than in finding a new job.

Amazinggrace,<p>You and your husband sound so much like me and my husband. My husband was 47 when he began his EA (I think). He was also the expert at the store and she was his adoring little cheerleader. Everything he did was the funniest, the smartest, the best, . . . She just laughed when he became impatient or angry at work. It just gave them something else to talk about.<p>I just wanted to warn you that the OW will probably pull out all the stops to keep what she has with your husband. She is probably very needy and has a very low self esteem and she probably still acts like a teenager in some ways. My husband's OW did things like go on trips with other men to make him jealous. It worked! She knew all the tricks to keep him (and a lot of other men) dangling. She would tell him about her relationships with other men and especially about her sex life. Even moving across the country didn't stop her from contacting my husband. Of course, he didn't tell me about it, but she called him daily at work. He
managed to call her and email her often, too. She definitely met his needs for admiration and sex. <p>Are you a Christian? I couldn't have made it through this without God in my life. I spent so much time in the Psalms and so much time praying. I prayed that God would put a hedge of protection around my husband and keep away anything or anyone that would try to destroy my marriage. I also read all the books and tried to discuss improving our marriage with my husband. I especially talked to him about the danger of emotional affairs (because I didn't know it was physical). I asked him about his needs and how I could meet them. We took trips together to renew our relationship, but he just couldn't seem to get her out of his mind. The problem is that nothing I did seemed to get through the fog and the obsession with that other person.<p>To me, only God could get through that fog to a very confused man in midlife. After over two years of false starts, God allowed me to discover more information about my husband. At that point, my husband broke and admitted his adultery to me. Since that time, God has completely changed him into a loving husband who loves me, our children, and the Lord. We now have a spiritual connection that we never had because we begin each day in God's Word and in prayer with each other. We also end each day with a devotion.<p>I will be praying for you and your husband. Let God's love enfold you.

Formersongbird, thank you SO much for your reply to my post! I had given up on anyone giving me feedback.<p>Yes! I'm a Christian and have stood for my less-than-perfect M & H for what seems like eternity!<p>I posted this morning in my thread in General Questions "What's going on here? Can't I even talk?" If you feel like finding out more of my situation, get ready to read. I'm pretty long-winded and hope my posts don't go on into infinity.... [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>It is so awesome to hear what God has done in other troubled marriages. I really needed to hear what's happened in yours! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>It's very easy to look at the circumstances and not remember what we're believing for, isn't it? I do try to remember that all satan can do is lie and deceive. And that all this junk is coming straight from the pit... I guess it's the fact that my H is being such a willing participant in it, that's so disappointing. I thought by now (after 30 years and a lot of STUFF) we'd be much farther down the road in our M.<p>You've encouraged me. Thanks very much for that and reply to my posts every chance you get, okay? [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img] <p>God Bless~
amazingrace

Amazing...
I think you're definitely on the right track. As you know from posting on my thread, my W has not ended the A, does not even acknowledge it since she's lied about it so much, so with your H having admitted it and committed to ending it and working on your M, you're already well on your way to recovery.
Remember it will be difficult, and he might have some slip-ups, so be ready for them, watch for them, and do what you can to prevent them or at least have him disclose them if they happen.
Hang in there, keep up your Plan A, support him and show him you're there and you're better!

Amazing ~<p>You aren't even close to recovery. If you want your marriage you are going to have to get very strong because this could honestly go on as long as 2 years.<p>Your H is simply trying to string along his "cake" as long as possible. Unfortunately, the odds are that if cornered, he'll pick the OW - at least right now while the affair is hot and heavy. Sounds to me like its gone PA also, you just haven't found proof.<p>Your trip to the MC actually sounds good. The MC was very correct, and he wasn't stupid for pointing out that your marriage can't recover without the OW's absence. Many WS's, including your H apparently, think they can juggle both relationships just fine. And yes you WILL know when its over and if your H recommitts to you. Trust me. Your MC was right. <p>But, honestly, call the Harleys for an appointment, I can't recommend them enough. Steve Harley will give you a game plan, and give you the encouragement and advice you need to get through. Do NOT attempt to do this alone. Your marriage does sound like you have a chance, but not if you don't get the help of a pro.

Thanks so much BrambleRose & Spacecase~ I really would hate to think this might all go on for two years. Don't really think I'm up for that at this point in the game. Let's be real--WH's not THAT much of a prize! [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I've sure come to realize that this is nothing even close to recovery. I keep jumping at his words and don't remember that right now they mean nothing. He's saying just what I want to hear most of the time just to keep things happy at home. <p>I've moved my Plan A up a knotch. I feel very good about it. I've set a timeframe that only I know about--August. I can do this till August. Can't promise anything after that! I'm going to post about my NEW IMPROVED Plan A in a new thread "I've seen the LIGHT: NEW IMPROVED Plan A!"<p>I might see if the finances will handle some time with the Harleys. Pretty sure WH will not go for it, but it would be great for me to get some feedback on my end of EA and Plan A. Thanks for the suggestion. I know what MC said was good, but he gave us no tools or anything to DO about our situation. And didn't even offer to see us 'next week.' Also, I really think that it will take a LONG TIME before I KNOW it's over. He is VERY good at his deceptive behavior. I will just have to trust and believe (someday).<p>amazingrace

AmazingGrace,
First, my prayers are with you!
From what you described, you must be in a lot of pain and I understand your pain, I have been there!
I scanned the replies, but I would agree with Bramblerose -- she is very wise about these things!
I do not want to be an alarmist here & I don't know how you can handle the news of your H having a "PA." You seem prepared for that news. An EA is very, very serious problem & in my opininon a violation of your wedding vows. Becasue of my expereince I tend to not believe the S's stories of no physical contact & as I read your story I was having serious doubts about your H's story of "no contact" I kept trying to think that maybe there is no Physical thing, but honestly with the OW boldness in talking with you & the note & the tape, I just could not help but think there was a full fledged PA -- of course these are feelings & no proof. But then when I read your signature line about the PI finding them "making out" in the park -- this does not square! I guess we could rationalize that they were not at a motel or whatever. But for sure, if your Marriage is to survive, absolutely no contact is an essential must -- I guess this is obvious & you need validation for your feelings. Your instincts are correct! Perhaps they have not consumated any actual intimacy as such (Bill Clinton's defination), but this is definately a "Dating," "Romantic" relationship! People who are just friendly co-workers don't make out in the park!!! Come on!!! You have a right to be upset, very upset! -- sorry, this is not right -- it does not pass the smell test and I believe you know this -- IMHO, you are absolutely right in your instincts!
Your H is the leading sales person, it would seem the OW job would be more expendable? I don't know if you know the supervisor's or owner's, it would seem extreme, but what about if you develop a strategy to talk to them -- it would have to involve your H of course. Probablly would not work. [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img]
When you described the OW H's reaction, did this come from your H? Have you spoken with OWH? I highly recommend talking with OWH -- some will disagree with this strategy, but it sounds to me that that this is quickly spinning out of control & I agree it is really nice that your H is so open about the note and all, but I believe He may be testing your tolerence & taking you for granted a little that you will be passive about this. I know this kind of senerio because I have been there! Anyway, it sounds like this OW is suggesting her & her H have this "open" relationship and she is suggesting the same for you & your H?! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] She has major attitude here!! I hope I am not overreacting here, but she is definatley out of control!! I understand your anxiety completely!!
They need "de-tox" -- immediately!! I HAVE A FEELING THE OW H MAY NOT BE AS CASUAL, if he knew all the facts, AS IT IS PROTRAYED. [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img]
I believe in the MB principles wholeheartedly, & it is very logical that our S are not going to gravitate to us when we are nasty & this is the real ironey of this kind of thing -- they treat us with great dis-respect & then we're to sit back and take it -- We do not have to be a doormat. Think about protecting your feeling here, you can be friendly, in a way, but you have to be firm -- He may be in big fog & actually think he can have you and be in this infatuated, romanitc relationship with the check out girl -- I think we need to be relaisitic here!! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I would urge you to run to a Christian book store or order online the James Dobson book, "Love must be Tough." This is not to be shared with your spouse. IMHO, I believe you need to take some perhaps dramtic action. The idea is stop the folishness of continued contact, set a precident that you will not tolerate such action in your defination of good relationship & most importantly helps you establish a realistic strategy to win him back, on your terms, with some respect! Otherwise, it is like you are condoning his actions! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img]
I have gone on here, but unfortunately, I don't know of a quick fix, but I know the sick feeling in the stomoch and I feel for your pain -- A part of our problem (as BS's) is that we tend to be in denial about the severity of our own situation sometimes and it is a lot easy to hand out advice to others when we are are not on the firing line; so please take my thoughts here as a person's observations from a far away -- follow your heart & instincts & pray for God's guidance -- I have blown this up, perhaps out of proportion and I urge you to be determined in your course of action, but be thoughtful & careful & try to be confident -- his actions are clearly not appropiate and he is I am sure convincing at times about his innocence.
We all have warts & I don't mean to be judgemental here, but I question the idea that drinking 'til closing qualifies as "recreational time." And when the OW says she is only thinking of his well being - yeah, we got that picture! I will also reinforce your instincts about her honesty in expression of her intentions or motives - do not, I repeat, do not believe a word she says!!!
I know in my case, when I spoke with the one OM'W she told me that she intercepted a voice message to her H from my W & she spoke with my W and told her to back off, that they were back to together & the OM'W was under the impression my W was backing away, because she told the W of OM, "Good Luck" - it meant nothing at the time - just a dodge -- I believe this "need to cheat" can easily take on a life of it's own & sometimes it becomes such a driving force that the participant's do and say whatever it takes in their mind to keep it alive! I believe in many cases it takes very dramtic shocks of reality to get the course of action changed. IMHO, I don't think it makes sense to wait around for these things to take a nautral course & die off after the chemical charges wear down -- 6 months. I believe we have to send a very clear message & it has to have enough impact to outweight the otherwise strong inclination to carry on this secret & sometimes powerful senerio with A's -- EA or PA!!
My hope & prayers are with you!
HH<p>[ April 16, 2002: Message edited by: Hurrian Hoosier ]</p>