PsychoB.....<p>It is so interesting to read your thread. Your wS does the same thing that mine does, but mine has been diagnosed with a Personality Disorder which I've been told makes it impossible for S to tell me the truth about what happened with any OP. The slightest question that makes it appear I think something bad about WS makes S rage and carry on and act out for hours. Consequently, I've received practically no answers and have been unable to heal. The new MC has said that we must not "live in the past" and must try to rebuild our relationship because in my WS's mind and heart, S has not cheated on me! This has been incredibly hard, and I feel your pain when you described how your WS responds. The truth is supposed to set people free....why can't it be the same with our S's? Honesty is so important to me, and to think that it is impossible for my WS to ever be that with me is so depressing. Hugs to you as you deal with getting the information you so desperately need.

Sorry to rehash--I guess I am stupid or something and I just don't understand;<p>The only reason that I have stopped asking about the affair(s) is that, when I do, it only brings on a fight. I hate to fight. I can ask a question in the most gentle, level-headed manner, and my husband will react as if I had just lashed him with a whip. In essence, I AM just starting fights.<p>So I have learned to leave it alone. And, predictably, my marriage has gotten better. We are just like newlyweds now, in fact. Except, for me at least, there is this little black corner in my mind that sometimes I stray to when I get upset with him. Sometimes, when I get to that little black corner, I cannot hold my peace. When is the day that I will know the whole truth? I know, know, the whole truth shouldn't matter by then, right?<p>Let's put it this way: In my religion, the process of repentence goes like this--if you are sorry for something that you have done, great or small, then you will feel sorrow for the misdeed. If you are sorry, then you will do the right thing and express the regret that you feel to the person that suffered at your hands, ie, confess. Then you will try to make restitution to the person that you harmed, as far as you are able to. If you stole his money, then return it. If you gossiped about him, set the record straight. If you cheated on your spouse, you should strive to mend the dammage.<p>Then, you work to never let the misdeed from happening again. You learn from your mistakes. You change your life. And you are forgiven.<p>Now, maybe I am just one of the crazy Christians, sorry, and my game plan is completely off base than what everyone else's is, most of all my husband's. My husband does not care about the "process of repentance" and since he is not a Christian he feels that he owes nothing to any Christian "processes." But I feel that this is the right way to do things if you want to be sucessful in life. If you continuously dodge the guilt and sweep your misdeeds under the carpet, blame others or your situation for them, live without learning, so to speak, then what keeps you from doing the same thing again? That is the jillion dollar question to me.<p>A little more than a year ago, I asked my husband if he regretted what he had done. This was at the worst of the aftermath of the affair. I was living alone with my son in the slum, I had just been layed-off from my job at the factory and I was working part-time at a department store just to keep us alive. You know what my husband said? He told me that he did NOT regret the affair. In fact, his phone calls (I was doing Plan B--I did not call) during that time fluxuated between two different themes. First, that I had abandoned him and taken his son to go live in Armpit, Idaho, so I was a cruel person. The second theme were pleas for me to return, disguised as "Yeah, I know you hate me, you have every right to. . ." The word "Sorry" never crossed his lips then, however.<p>I know, the Harley Plan is a good one--"K" set me straight from the get-go, I still remember his words: "The beauty of the (Harley Method) is that the WS doesn't have to express regret." I understand this. I understand forgiveness. I understand unconditional love. However, I still can't live the part about just accepting your WS back with their haughtiness and their secret-keeping. Unfortunately, I am only human too, and I have human emotions, the the maximum amount of understanding and coaching from others is not going to take the edge off the pain. The WS has to understand this, too.<p>When my husband doesn't tell me the truth, and instead demands that I "leave it alone" and if I don't, I am harassing him--then that tells me that he is not sorry for what he has done.<p>Or if he is sorry, by sweeping it under the carpet, he is not examining the weaknesses that lead him to the affair closely (that's how it appears to me, anyway) so what keeps him from letting it happen again if he does not do that?<p>And if he is not sorry, he is sure to do it again, of course, at least somewhere down the road. That's my theory.<p>I have done my part--I have accepted him back into my life (just as SAA described, to my husband this was quite the opposite--he was doing me a favor by coming back to me) Why can't my husband do his part by just telling me the truth?<p>I swear to God, if he tells me the truth, THEN we can leave it alone. THEN it will never be mentioned again. THEN I will heal and our marriage will be whole, and not just a role-playing, complete with kisses. (That's how it feels to me sometimes, that I have to fill every available moment with pleasantries, jokes, hugs, and sweet-talk, even when my heart is just breaking inside of me.)<p>Maybe it's just the personality. My husband, too, is a professional man, a military officer who has effortly climbed the ranks and who is a genious when it comes to leading his troops. He is used to being in control, obviously. To me, however, it is not a matter of control and who is right and who is wrong. I do want to married, and I don't care if I am right. I just want my husband to realize the wrong that he caused so that this BS will finally end, our family will heal, and so that it will never happen again. I want to be able to trust him, not have to worry about what he's doing when he's TAD in other countries. I want to never feel that I have to search his hard-drive and look at the messages on his cellphone. Is this too much to ask? With honesty comes trust, and you have to be able to trust the person that you are married to, or else you have one really sucky marriage.<p>WS's--you have to answer your spouse's questions, no matter how painful. It's like lancing a festering wound for both parties. Why not do it? Don't you want it to end, to forgive and be forgiven? If there was any gift that he could give me, not clothes, perfume, or souveniers from his travels, it would just be the truth. That would matter the most to me.

Bernzini, that was an excellent post. I feel exactly as you do and you summed it up perfectly.
Psycho_B

psycho_b~
My H has done exactly the same thing! I finally figured out that the amount of anger/rage about questions I asked equalled his guilt about whatever I'd asked. Little reaction seemed to mean he probably had not done whatever I'd asked. BIG reaction or rage seemed to mean 'of course I did it, are you crazy?' He didn't say it, you know, but I finally got a clue that this was the case.<p>All my H would say about relationship with OW from work was that they were 'friends.' Period. I was not supposed to ask or think anything else could be possible. But I had asked her during 3 phone calls to stop calling him and going out to lunch with him, because I felt it was soooo inappropriate. She was very nice and promised to stop. She did not. I told my H 'a good friend does NOT put your M in danger! A good friend would do everything to SAVE your M, even if it meant not being friends anymore!'<p>I wouldn't have found out anything if I'd waited for H to tell me. I'm NOT a patient person and this R has been going on since last fall. I hid a tiny tape recorder in his truck and was able to hear his side of 2 cell phone calls w/OW. When I asked what in the world they could be talking about when she called him everyday on the way to work, etc., he always said it was about "work stuff." Yeah, right! I heard him telling her what he told me about ending their relationship. I gave him a deadline for 'resolving it' cause he said he needed time---it wasn't something that he could do easily. He told her they would have to figure out what they would do after that deadline. H said it laughing. Laughing. He couldn't say all they talked about was work anymore. AND H couldn't say he was serious about ending R w/OW. I heard him. It was hard, but I needed to hear it. I always tried very hard to believe him. He, like you said, is a VERY good talker. That gave me the courage to hire a private detective to see if it was a PA. H SWORE it was NOT. I did not get proof of sexual encounters, but PI DID see them snuggling at the park. Sorry, H, a KISS makes it PA, even if you didn't actually get in her pants. And it wasn't cause OW didn't want it!<p>H opened up considerable after being confronted with taped conversations. Still swore about the A NOT being physical, but gave me much more info. Admitted it had become much more than he meant for it to be. I had my doubts about him being totally honest. H was editing to my satisfaction, giving me just enough to make me quiet. <p>After being confronted this week with PI findings, he says he's decided to end it with OW. She now wants to leave her H, who is clueless about the whole thing, poor guy. My H says he never intended to leave me, but her attention was 'flattering.' She also went with him to drink, which I never did. (I am now, working a mean Plan A. ugh/sigh) H admitted to 2 kisses. Still says it wasn't sexual, which actually I believe. We have wonderful sex and he has a little trouble sometimes, if you know what I mean. I can't imagine him being so vulnerable and open to failure with someone else. That's the only reason I believe it. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Hang in there. Actually his reactions to your questions are your answers. I know you want more than that, and you very well could get real answers like the others said, when he's had enough and is ready to work with you on M. But take comfort in the fact he is really telling you MUCH MORE than he means to by his over-reactions to your simple questions!<p>I would have believed my H so much more had he answered me calmly when I asked those questions! He was really screaming "I'M GUILTY! I'M GUILTY!" when he was screaming about how crazy I was for thinking what I was thinking........<p>Honey~
I know just what you mean. My H is alcoholic too and we've been thru some really ugly times. My heart goes out to you. When he says those horrible things to you, imagine yourself coated in a heavy layer of Vaseline! Nothing can stick to that stuff!! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] The Lord helped me protect my heart so I took nothing to heart that he said about me when he was drinking or being so mean. I know who I am and nothing H can say affects that knowledge. It's hard to live thru, but it can be done without becoming damaged. Only God can help us be protected like that. I firmly believe that. We can "walk thru the fire and not be burned."<p>God Bless~
amazingrace

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by amazingrace:
<strong>Actually his reactions to your questions are your answers.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>A very, very good thought. I wish I had written this. Best when stated with a smirk.<p>WAT

well i did it- i asked hubby to read this. i then went upstairs. i heard him come in so i believe he read it. after he came up to bed and we fell asleep tangled up cuddling. he didnt say anything-i really didnt expect him too. i just want him to understand that what he is going through, he is not alone. i also want him to know from others i will not think less of him for his emotional weaknesses. thank you for this thread. on to another day.

This is a good thread.
My H follows the same, gets very angry if I ask anything and states he WILL LEAVE. So, I don't ask anymore, but then there isn't an environment for a whole lot of positive trust to be developed, is there?<p>He still thinks I should "get over it and just trust him". yeah, right.<p>I too, have told him I am "not rubbing it in his face as he claims, but need his help to help me heal from this. He won't. I don't forsee a real positive outcome of this and since he is barely home anymore due to his job, I will wait till the end of the summer since he is supposed to have more time off during the summer and see how things go. <p>Unfortunately, I still feel my life is on hold, here. I want to give him that extra chance, yet I'm the one he has given the ultimatums to. I am in the throes of feeling like I'll be abandoned anytime because he can't handle telling me the truth and his being controlling is driving me nuts. <p>Since I haven't asked him in a while, even though I am copying some of this, he would probably consider it a huge LB, so I don't know what I will do with it yet.

Someone on another thread was quoting Harley on his radio show: <p>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=8&t=008933<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
On the radio, he talks extensively about protection. One man, whose wife was separated said that once in a while when he called her he would slip and be disrespectful or angry.<p>I'll never forget what Harley answered. "You think of it as a little slip. She sees it as evidence that you cannot be trusted not to hurt her."
<hr></blockquote><p>I love that quote!

I have to ditto Psycho_b regarding Bernzini's post. Totally on target. That is the nitty-gritty and why the processing of the A is so important. If you don't see the required insight into how it happened, why it happened, how to prevent it in the future, then there is NO security in the R. As Dr. Harley told me in regard to my case, what we're doing is working on the next affair.<p>All of us BS here have seen that required insight in the WS here. We know what it looks like--Tutter's post, for example--so when we overlay that knowledge on what we are seeing in our spouse and it doesn't fit, that dark corner that Bernzini spoke of gets bigger. I think if all of us could see and hear what Tutter conveys coming from our spouses, we'd finally be able to exhale. We would know that s/he finally gets it and that it's safe to move forward.<p>I found that that newlywed phase only took me so far and the longer the postponement of dealing with the A, the larger my dark corner became and the more withdrawn I have become from my H. It is exactly as Bernzini describes, like you're playing the role you're supposed to play while you're dying inside.<p>Yesterday, the book Dr. Harley sent (Fall In Love, Stay In Love) arrived. I put a Post-It on it saying, "This is a gift from Dr. Harley. What do you want to do?" and put it on his pillow. Last night he asked me what I meant and said "I AM loving you." I acknowledged that and added, "But there are so many things I still need from you that I'm not getting." I told him how dismaying it was when I am so desperate that I find a way to talk to Dr. Harley directly and mention that I actually talked to him and his reaction is some kind of weird look.<p>I said that when we had more time I would go into detail about our situation, but in summary, we need to have a formal plan that we follow step by step to do the hard work. "If you have to, look at it as a job that has to be done." At least he didn't blow up or anything and stayed friendly the rest of the evening, so we'll see what happens when I go into more depth. Were still on the first step from the first checklist in SAA: "WS should reveal information about the A to the BS."<p>[ April 12, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</p>

bump to go with my other thread about asking husband to read this.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Sad1:
<strong> Your wS does the same thing that mine does, but mine has been diagnosed with a Personality Disorder which I've been told makes it impossible for S to tell me the truth about what happened with any OP. The slightest question that makes it appear I think something bad about WS makes S rage and carry on and act out for hours. Consequently, I've received practically no answers and have been unable to heal. The new MC has said that we must not "live in the past" and must try to rebuild our relationship because in my WS's mind and heart, S has not cheated on me!</strong><hr></blockquote><p>sad1 - can you elaborate a little about the "personality disorder" and what your MC says about it?<p>Although it's too late for me, I'm still trying to figure out how my X can still believe she didn't have an affair and how I am childish for feeling hurt. I long ago concluded that some thing wasn't right upstairs, and I've read of various disorders, but I really haven't heard a better explanation than an alien abduction or moose brain worms.<p>Thanks,
WAT

I would guess that she means "Borderline" Personality, which is different than narcissism. People like this are angry people that like to project their anger onto other people--by projecting, I mean blaming other people for their own emotions. Blaming is the key method of getting through life--"You did this to me" "You hate me, so I am going to hate you." You MAKE me mad." "I hate you, but don't you leave me." <p>Borderlines are really very dependant on significant others for everything--especially scapegoating. These are the guys that threaten suicide if their lover leaves them, even if the lover has suffered the tidalwave of emotions for so long that they cannot take anymore. It's always the other guy's fault for the disasterous relationship.<p>Borderlines have an incapability to see the grey area of things--everything is either good or evil, black or white. If you forget to pay a bill, or let yourself become grouchy and say a cross word, your borderline spouse will react as if you are satan himself. Borderlines modify everything to fit their own emotional reactions. If it pisses them off, then it must be really bad. Unfortunately, almost everyone pisses them off.<p>I think borderline personalities make good liars because they are so good at denying their own faults and blaming their problems on other people. If they looked inward at themselves, they would become enraged by what they see. After all, no one is perfect. But to a borderline personality, if there is a slight flaw, then the whole thing is evil and rotten. It helps the person get through life to deny any imperfection in himself.<p>Borderline personalities are also noted for the ability of falling deeply and passionately in love,--until the realize that their lover is not perfect. Then I guess they move on to the next victim, in search of someone who will never let them down in any way and meet every single emotional need. Of course, there is not perfect person in the universe, so the borderline personality is always disappointed. <p>A borderline personality will rarely ever go to counseling on his own free will. He is not interested in discovering his own problems--in fact, that is a huge threat to him and his peace of mind. The rest of the world is the problem to the borderline--it's the world's fault.<p>And, I guess, through my research, I have heard that borderlines usually mellow with age and somewhere around midlife, they start acting normal. Some do, anyways. My husband is starting to--the temper tantrums are disappearing. That is, until I piss him off by asking him questions about his affair--then he freaks out. He is not even rational--it's hard to describe.<p>I am pretty sure that I am married to a high-functioning borderline. I am proud of myself for hanging on for this long--that, too is rare. Borderlines don't stay married for long.<p>Sorry to jump in and lecture--but maybe it will be of some value to you.<p>[ April 13, 2002: Message edited by: Bernzini ]</p>

Thanks, Bernie.<p>My X fits that description, but perhaps not perfectly. I had read about BPD and narccisism and they both fit my X to a degree, but neither is a dead ringer. Maybe she's both? [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I guess time will tell. Time wounds all heels.<p>Thanks again,
WAT

I guess nobody "fits" a perfect mold--we all have slight flaws in personality. Sometimes we all can be a narcissist in a certain situation, or whatever. A little of this, a little of that. However, some people consistantly exhibit certain behaviors and that's when it becomes a "disorder." A lot times, that part of the person that is so wild and passionate and reckless and strong is what makes us fall in love with them, to our misfortune, because it is also what makes the person difficult to get along with. Sad but true. So don't you feel too bad, WAT. You fell in love with someone who has a hard time with love as an act, not just a feeling.