Maybe someone can give me insight about what happened between my H & me last night. I'm totally in the dark here......<p>First off, my H has been in deep EA with OW from his work. This week he seems to be serious about ending it with her. Says he sees how wrong it is, doesn't want to lose me or family, etc. H says she hasn't taken him seriously about ending it. OW is still trying to figure out how she can have EA. (She's asked him why I won't share him. Says it's so unfair. I think she's quite the wacko. She says she'll promise that I can have all the sex part. Isn't that nice?)<p>Anyway he told me when he came home from work for dinner that she had stopped by his desk and talked to him a little. He told her he was thinking about quitting his job. She asked if he thought he would be happy in my pocket, following me around, with me in control of him. He said he told her she had a point. Why he would tell me he said that, is beyond me! [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] <p>After he got home from work last night we had coffee on our deck and really enjoyed being with each other. He came in and started playing solitare on the computer. I pulled up a stool and sat beside him. <p>He started playing a song on the computer that he's been playing a LOT in recent weeks. It's an OLD rock 'n roll song that seems to be a little before our time. So I asked why he had started liking it so much. That I'd wondered why he had been playing it so much lately. It's the song "Shout" by the Isley Brothers. He said he didn't know; he just likes it. We went to bed later and had wonderful sex! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>This morning before leaving for work he was playing solitare again and I sat down by him for a minute. Out of the blue, he said<p> "I was really p***** last night about you questioning me about that song. It's really too much, you wanting to be in my head like that. And I'll tell you, it's not going to happen. Now I guess I can't even play it now. She's right (OW) about how you want to control me. And I'm getting sick of it." <p>I sat there stunned. I didn't know what to say! I never dreamed he would take it like that. I just wanted to share a happy memory with him or something while he listened to it 10 times in a row. It didn't seem like a big freaking deal to me!<p>As I thought about it I started to wonder if she liked it or maybe it was 'their song.' I called him on his cell phone on his way to work to say I didn't mean to make him mad and I didn't want our day to start like that. (He wouldn't let me say anything more about it before he left for work. Said to DROP IT. That's his way of dealing with things. Drop the bomb, then don't let me say anything about what he just said.) I asked why he didn't say anything about it last night when I asked and he said he didn't want to be talking about it ALL NIGHT!<p>He said he wasn't mad, but I was smothering him. I said his reaction really made me think that song had something to do with HER. He said he knew it; that was why he was mad. He knew I thought that, but I told him really I didn't think that at first, at all. Not until he blew up about it. Like I struck a nerve or something.....<p>I don't know what to do with this new development. I feel like I can't even make small talk now. He might somehow take offence at the slightest thing I say. I asked about that song in the most off-hand way anyone could ask. He's really getting on my last nerve, but I'm not showing it. Plan A-ing, you know. <p>Any insight as to what's going on here would surely be appreciated. I have to think it had to do with what OW said about me controlling him. And I'm sure I got the edited version of the conversation! <p>amazingrace

Gracie - very simply, IMHO: it's the Mothership; his brains are scrambled; moose brain worms.<p>YOU are not in the dark - he is.<p>What to do about it: Plan A and try to ignore the adolescent behavior.<p>Oh yea, don't "Shout."<p>[ April 12, 2002: Message edited by: worthatry ]</p>

from his behaviour I would guess you struck a nerve -- it must be a song they share. And obviously he's not telling you the truth.<p>One of the best deflections when a BS gets to close is to get mad at them....lol.<p>I think thats what you're up against.

I've been thinking, noticing that when one spouse says the other is controlling that ususally it is the first spouse that is being controlling. The response is to stop doing whatever it is they think is controlling. GEnerally it is something they also COUNT ON the "controlling" spouse for.

Nothing makes a WS more angry when the BS gets it right, 'the 1st time'. <p>So you figured it out. When that happened and H got mad, I told him that he wasn't doing a good job of hiding his feelings. I used reverse babble psycology on him for a long time. Works better in my case. LOL!! ! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Then I told my H to stop putting his anger for getting caught on me and look in the mirror instead. He wondered about that long enough to calm down and I just walked away. <p>At a later time, I then told my H that I did not appreciate his outburst like that and if he had his triggers to either take them and himself out of our house because I would 'always' figure stuff out!! That put him on the defensive for a while but he knew I was right. I was not threatening him, just sharing the facts. <p>See they lying and cheating eventually gets old. When it does, you are the one who can start calling the shots. <p>When the WS told me that I was controlling him, I agreed. Then what was he going to do? Couldn't get more mad, I agreed. I just didn't add to it. Then when the OW called and accused me of the same thing (this just happened), I agreed with her also. Blew her hot air right out the window. Now she didn't have anything to hang over my head. If I was controlling, so what? <p>The point is to not let them have the upper hand. I told my H, well I need to have some control, you already said you were out of control so someone better keep on top of stuff here!! <p>You know what? H agreed. <p>NEXT!!!:!:!: LOL! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>L.

Thanks guys! Someone answered my posts this time...I feel so special! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>We had a very quiet evening. I tried very hard not to say anything about OW or EA, and I was succesful. I did check his cell phone call history while he was on the computer and saw he had checked his voice mail. I still know that password, so my curiosity got the best of me. She said 'you didn't call me today, but maybe you'll do better tomorrow.' yuck, like he's her little boy or something.... She works with him, but was off yesterday and also today & Sunday. He didn't say one word about her calling him. I didn't ask.<p>This morning we were in the shower and sort of sheepishly he said, I got a message from her yesterday and told me about it. I asked why she didn't just call him at the store like she usually does when she's off. He said she had to go golfing with her husband and probably used his cell phone, but couldn't talk a lot so that's why she didn't call the store. He looked off in the distance and said "I just don't know what to do." I looked him between the eyes and said "yes, really you do." Then he goes on to say I don't understand and that it really is just an 'innocent thing.' I didn't say anything else cause I knew I'd major LB if I did. But when we were getting dressed I told him maybe when he started out with her it was innocent enough. But there wasn't anything innocent about being with her at the park. Then he started saying how mad he still was about the private detective thing (I told him Tuesday morning about hiring one after PD followed them from work Monday to a park and watched them snuggling....I just couldn't keep it to myself any longer, with him lying to me about being with her.) I had to just shut up about it cause I could see it was going to get nasty. He walked out of the room and said he hoped I had the money to follow him everyday....<p>We had breakfast out with my parents so we had to put on our happy faces. When we got back home he hugged me and told me how lucky he was to have me. Then as he walked down the hall he said, "I must be the luckiest man in the world, to have TWO WOMEN crazy about me." No, really, he must be the STUPIDEST MAN to say that to me, like that!! [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I had to get out of the house when he said that. I went out on our deck and just stood. He came out right after me and put him arms around me and said "what's wrong?" He really must be totally out to mars for sure! I said "I don't feel so lucky." That started him going on about how he didn't know what I was so upset about. Wasn't he here with me? Then he says he doesn't know what my problem is.....that he has enough affection for both of us. Oh, so now HE'S believing the 'sharing thing!' When he told me OW wanted me to share him, he said he thought it was a little sick too..... Now she's convinced him I'm trying to control him AND I should share him with her. He doesn't know how close I am to just wrapping him up in a big red bow and setting him on OW's doorstep! [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] <p>When he left for work, he still was saying I should be happy he's still here with me, etc. We're almost finished with the great room he built on our house and all we need are the kitchen cabinets. He had just told me he was going to order them from the store where he works 15 minutes before all this. As he left he said he was going to wait on the cabinets. You're right! HE is VERY CONTROLLING!<p>So far that's how Plan A is playing out here. I know I should just ignore all this stuff he says about OW, shouldn't I? I have a BIG PROBLEM ignoring him about EA!!!<p>He just says things that are soooooo stupid!<p>amazingrace

amazing,
I nominate "Mr. Luckiest" for the Mr. Clueless (dis)honor [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] .<p>I completely admire you for keeping your wits about you during the whole conversation and stating your feelings respectfully. Good job on handling it so well and keeping the communication flowing.

amazing have been following your story some and have some comments...keep in mind I only know what I read here, and only offer them in the spirit of communication use them for whatever it is worth, but I don't think you will like them.<p>First re this post, I do think you had in mind the song was related to the ow, whether you deny it even to yourself, I think it is what motivated you to ask, and I think your H knew that quite well. Whether you really are good for each other or not (despite the 30 years) you do have a good sense of how each other thinks, so most likely it is as he thought. The subsequent stuff was predictable as he tried to stuff his irritation at you, but finally let it out, your who me, what did I do attitude is transparent as well, you knew exactly what you are doing.<p>Which leads me to the following observation. You strike me as an a strong aggressive personality, and by God you are not going to let your marriage end (or your H escape) blah blah blah. And have all the "right" on your side, etc. I suspect you are the dominant personality in your marriage and are now reaping what you sowed....what your H meant when he said you smother him. You are determined to have a happy successfull marriage and focused on that, and didn't consider whether your H agreed, he is probably a follower. You made all the classic psychological mistakes that dominant personalities make, and then wonder what happened when it blows up in their face. These things DON'T just happen, it has been building for years, your H is trying to get away from you and you won't let him go. None of this excuses his behaviour, he needed to step to the plate and confront you, but for reasons to complicated to go into in this post, certain personality types won't do that, they just stuff until they explode. Nor is this a condemnation of you, I am sure you meant well, and had no real idea what was happening. Your H has a lot of work to do, but so do you...leave him alone, let him do what he wants, quit spying on him, quit trying to manage him, learn to let go, not be in charge etc. etc. The surrendered wife book addresses some of this sort of thing, so do other books folks can recommend. Chances are in your case, if in fact your marriage was as good as you say it was (and you are not too biased), if you let him be, he will let this other relationship go, then you can do more intense work on the marriage. Plan a, even some of the 180 stuff is probably best for you, and harley counselling might be helpful too. But you keep leaning on him, and you greatly increase the chances of validating his perception you just want him cause he is your H, and not cause of who he is....and that increases the likelihood he will leave the marriage, for his own psychological health...not cause he doesn't care about you, etc. but because you won't let him be who he is, you have managed him, and he no longer finds that acceptable. The ow has seen this, and simply telling him about it is a very powerful draw, chances are she is manipulating him too, but also chances are she understands some things about him better than you do, you need to try and understand those things too, and not focus on trying to restore the marriage....he doesn't want it....you have to start over and build a different one.

Amazing,<p>Ok, we have responded and some of us have 'different viewpoints' but at the same time we are 'almost saying the same thing'. <p>Look if you were thinking about getting angry at SNL's comments, read this first. <p>First of all SNL has a way of saying stuff that while it holds some truth, it may be just a tad tooo WS straight! Please let me clarify. SNL has said that you appear to be the dominate and controlling one. Don't take that as a real negative comment. My H said the same stuff as yours. <p>Actually what came out in the wash later (after he made the same comment about 2 women loving him and I replied that well I can make that 1 and would leave.....) H figured out he really wasn't that good a catch. You see, I don't plan on sharing and if that's controlling then fine. That's controlling......in a WS eye. <p>Is controlling always a bad thing? No. That is where the statement about 'U are controlling' and left without clarification sends people all in the wrong direction. See WS' do that sometimes. Make an accusation then leave it for us to come to our own conclusions. <p>So, I ask that you see past this. Do look at yourself and see where that statement is valid vs nonsense. Work on what is valid for you to fix and throw the rest out. <p>I have learned not to 'assume' I know what the WS means. The explanation needs to come along with the statement so that no one is misunderstood. <p>The A takes off to new heights as long as the WS and OP can keep the BS and family in the dark. Away from the real truth. Once that cloak of A darkness is removed, there is healing first for the BS and then if desired by the WS, the WS loses that title and regains the rightful place as a loving spouse. But that is an earned right. It is not the same as when the spouse had that right when they were faithful or 1st married. <p>Hope this makes sense. Just a bit of clarification. <p>By the way, I got peeved when my H said the same as yours. And to think that what they are spewing out of their mouths, the WS think's it is unique! LOL!!!! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>L.

Whew! After I picked myself off the floor (thanks, SNL), I knew I had to come back and clarify some of our issues.....<p>WH is alcoholic. By default I have had to step up to the plate and handle the real day-to-day issues of life. When we'd been married 7 years a 'friend' counseled me to file for divorce cause in her M it 'woke her H up and showed him he'd better straighten up.' So I filed for DV. I probably was a codependent enabler back then, which certainly didn't help anything. WH had a bad childhood with lots of perceived maternal rejection. Me filing for DV was like that all over again. He could always depend on ME to be there for him, etc,. He saw DV as BIG rejection from me, so threw everything to the wind that he had held together to that point. I had a cousin who filed for DV, then cancelled it, over and over. She was the joke of the family. So I always said 'if I ever file for DV I would NEVER do that.....' It's sad how those stubborn attitudes can come back to bite us in the butt! At the time we had daughters 3 & 8 months old.<p>So 10 days before the DV is final (it took 60 days in our state) I found out I was pregnant. By then I could see no point in changing anything. After filing for DV, H wouldn't move out; I had had to be the one to find him an apartment..... I needed money desperately, but couldn't really just go find a job. (I was also nursing my 8 month old.) So I started caring for children in my home. Got state licensed--the whole nine yards. It worked really well for me. I could be home with my kids and make a really decent income. That was 24 years ago and I still provide daycare in our home!<p>I had never suspected any As before the DV, but after, he made up for lost time. To be fair, we were DVed, but he still wanted to come over and be part of the family too. He was really home with us more after DV than he had been before. I appreciated the help with the 3 little kids and since I hadn't even wanted the DV in the first place, I did't object to him staying here like I should have. He still felt like my husband in every way..... <p>Eventually he moved back in and 21 months after DV, we remarried. But his fascination with OW did not end. Our 4th child (a son) was born a year after RM, but during that time H had a fling with an OW at work and almost killed both of them driving her little sportscar drunk. Well, he wasn't really hurt, but called me to pick him up at the hospital before OW's H came to hospital and killed him! Nothing happened to him because of wreck, no DUI, nothing...<p>From the hospital, I drove him to her house (OW was supposedly separated from H, imagine that!) to get some of his stuff and even loaned OW one of our TV's so she could recouperate from broken leg at home and watch (my) TV. I guess even back then the Lord was showing me a glimpse of Plan A (or maybe it wasn't the Lord, and I was just being really stupid. Now I wonder.) OW moved across the country to recover with family. (Wreck had pretty much ended A, but moving ended her job with WH and enforced no contact.) He asked forgiveness and he got it.<p>I have always believed that my commitment to M is a sacred thing and felt so bad about DV, I guess that's why I took him back with still the baggage of his alcoholism, childhood ghosts, etc. As I'm typing, all this doesn't sound very good, does it? I have prayed and stood for M with a vengence since RM. I have seen the power of God at work in our M and in WH many times. I have seen the man H could be without alcohol. He went into treatment while I was expecting our 5th child and it was good. It was VERY GOOD. We are really good together when all this junk isn't between us. We had some time before he started drinking again that was like heaven. <p>WH doesn't drink everyday. Not that kind of alcoholic. But when he drinks, he can't stop. Sometimes goes a long time sober only drinking once or twice a month. Before this EA, that is. OW goes out to drink with him, SNL. That is one EN she met of his that I did not. I do not drink. But I have been going with the group from work recently to be with him. He's invited me and that has not happened before. When I go, OW will not go. I have to say, I do not like watching him get drunk. While all the others see him being funny and charming the drunker he gets, I see all those brain cells I love dying a tragic death. But I have been able to put on my happy face and be glad I'm the one he wanted to be with!<p>He had another A about 5 years after the first. It ended as I continued to stand for our M and love WH. I can't really remember many details about it. To my knowledge that was the last A till now. That was 15 years ago. After the DV, H work history became bad. He didn't care about work. Before DV was excellent in holding a job. I guess I carried a little guilt about that too. He worked with me in my daycare for a couple of years. He was great. Also during that time he remodeled our house. He was really becoming a great carpenter. After many jobs, he learned a lot about building. WH is VERY smart. With education (his family are all HS drop-outs, didn't value education at all; he got his GED after we married and since has gone on to vocational college) he could have been a doctor or scientist. Very analytical mind. Struggles with self esteem issues because of drinking.<p>Let's come into present now. WH is brilliant carpenter. I can just imagine something, and he can build it. He does electrical, plumbing, rough work, finish work, tile...you name it, he can do it. (You should see the great room he built--kitchen, dining, family room--onto our house, doing every aspect of project I designed.)I've helped him all along the way and encouraged him in everything he's tried. Yes, I do take credit for helping him become what he's become. I've encouraged him, supported him (emotionally & financially), and all the while we have this incredible sexual bond that transcends anything that might be going on at any given moment.<p>OK, SNL, I probably have become the dominant personality in our R, but anyone who knows me will tell you that wasn't really me. Oh, I've always had a strong sense of who I was (guess you'd call it self esteem, but also who I am in Christ), but for me to be overbearing or bossy, it's just not me. I've HAD to take on some of that just to survive. Does that make any sense? My daycare has flourished and it is our main source of income. WH seems to think HIS MONEY is for whatever he wants it to be for....sometimes bills, but most of the time not.<p>I went to college a few years ago and got an Associate Degree in Early Childhood Education. I have not sat by and let his drinking and verbal abuse while drinking stop me from becoming a better person. I have loved him with my whole heart and forgave him as soon as he asked me to everytime after drinking bouts. I have learned not to hang onto past hurts, but move forward. This is what I'm trying so hard to do now. I will have to say that I thought by this time in our lives, we would be much farther down the road. I'm very disappointed in H that he's done this to us again, and with such a vengence. He's very sucessful at work and OW thinks she's got the captain of the football team. WH tells me he's in over his head and wants to end it with her. Says she's bossy and overbearing (huh?) but then says she doesn't take him seriously when he says he wants to end it. He said he thinks she's emotionall disturbed. Yesterday he told me they wouldn't last two days together. What? Then what is all this confusion? He just wants his cake, but wants to eat it too. You know, having the best of both worlds.<p>I'm tempted to switch to Plan B, just because he said that (about how they couldn't last if they tried to be together), but I hesitate. I know the horrible results filing for DV caused and if he will end it while in Plan A, I just don't want to cause all of us that much pain.... I feel very confused and hate never knowing what frame of mind he's going to be in from one minute to the next. He's planning projects to do at home for months to come, then he'll say how he cares for OW and can't end EA. He doesn't seem to get the fact that I can't live in never-never land indefinitely. It is impossible to think that I could pull this off much longer....<p>In another post I told what happened last weekend. Our oldest daughter (27) went to home store where WH & OW work. She had been in the store for quite a while. It was very busy and she couldn't find anyone to help her in the lawn & garden dept. She was talking to her Dad (WH)when his phone rang and OW asked "who is that blond that you're talking to?" then said, "she's been in the store for a long time." Think OW's not controlling? WH is sales specialist, so all he does is talk to people all day. OW is head cashier, so she must just watch him all day......<p>Sorry this was so long. I just felt I needed to go back and give some history of our R. I appreciate your confrontations AND comments. You won't believe me SNL, but I really did not associate that song with OW. WH finds and downloads songs on computer that were favorite songs during teenage years and I assumed that was where it came from. Not until his REACTION to my question, did I think that OW was connected to it! <p>I bought a copy of SAA yesterday and plan to read it cover to cover. Maybe concentrated info about Plan A-ing will help my reactions when WH says things about how he cares for OW and how hard it is to end EA. Everytime I say something negative about EA, I could bite my tongue off. I am doing better, however. I don't mention it till HE brings it up. But then I can't help throwing in my 2 cents. He's listening to OW talk adnauseum. ($100 in cell phone time last month.) Haven't I earned the right to talk too? <p>I guess my 'rights' as wife do play bigtime into my feelings, SNL. But you know, I'm NOT trying to save the M at ALL COSTS. I do take exception to that. WH could tell me at any time he doesn't want me or M and be free to leave. My freedom from his garbage and from worry about what he's going to do (on a daily basis) would be so heady I don't really know what I'd do first. He WILL NOT GO. He's got a good thing here, SNL, and he knows it. I 'opened that cage door' months ago. He knows what side his bread is buttered on. He says just enough of the right stuff to keep me hanging on..... I wonder if I'm even doing the right thing. I probably should have moved on long ago.....Hindsight is always 20/20, isn't it?<p>amazingrace