I discovered my W's EA about 7 months ago. Went through all the "don't do" stuff, then discovered Dr. Harley and began implmenting Plan A....she continues the A, but tells me she loves me, wants to stay, talks about the future, but refuses to end it, keeps lying about it (saying it's ended, etc.) and I get the feeling she's "waiting for something"...don't know what. I waver between believing she's trying to end it and get back to repairing our marriage, and believing she's just playing me....any ideas? Might Plan B be a good way to confirm? Any other way?
Thanks!!!!!

SC:<p>If I understand you correctly, your W is doing much the same thing my W is doing. My W seems to be hanging onto OM (as a friend) "just in case" I can't maintain my "new and improved" image. She counters my complaints about not being able to trust her with OM by saying she doesn't know if she can trust me to "listen" to her and help her do the things she wants in life. <p>Have you asked your W what it is that OM "provides" that you don't? So that maybe you can address those EN's and help the OM's "magic" fade?<p>I wouldn't use Plan B to try to confirm what she's doing here. Plan B should only be resorted to when Plan A has had time to work (on you, primarily, but also for her "benefit"). And most importantly, you don't want her to "call your bluff" if you aren't ready to divorce if Plan B fails. You have to be prepared for that outcome before going to plan B.<p>Good luck to you.

great advice from 2long. <p>MUCH patience is needed in plan A. I don't think you've been in plan A very long. Read up on plan A and Plan B. THere's some great info in the "Notable Posts" link in my signature line.<p>Try to believe in the best - respect what she says to you - don't ask a million questions - give the A time to die or show it's ugly head (it can't remain hidden forever). The more you question her and doubt her, the more you'll push her away. Just take everything she says with a grain of salt so you don't get blind-sided. It's very likely that she's lying. Just let it continuing running it's course. Some affairs can last 2 years. Are you in this for the long haul? Is two years worth it to you for a lifelong rewarding marriage? maybe not 2 years - but maybe you can see yourself in this for, say, 3 more months?<p>So, hang in there... vent here - not at her.

If your wife is continuing to have a sexual affair with the OM then it is clearly unacceptable. She is continuing to put your health at risk and disrespecting you. She refuses to end it then it says a great deal. Let me ask you do you think if the roles were reversed she would allow you to continue to have sex with another woman while you were living with her in the marriage?
All contact must cease but she is not willing to do this. We call this a person wishing to have their cake and eat it too. She likes being married and the security that goes with and also enjoys
having sex on the side with another man. This must not continue and you should not enable her to have the best of both worlds. The Harley's believe that
6 months is the cut off point if you have been plan A'ing and she is still involved the affair then it is time for plan B. There must be consequences to her actions or there simply is no reason for her to stop. The longer she disrespects you the less respect she will have for you and the less respect you will have for yourself.
Good luck.

Spacecase,
Hang in there. My EA lasted 24 months. I tried to end it for nearly 17 months...it was just really hard for me. I never fell out of love with my H., and the OM and I never touched. I became friends with him when my marriage was at a lull; so even once I figured out what had hit me and my H and I started working on our marriage, I had already fallen in love with the OM. I was truly in love with both me. But again, the OM and I never touched.
Hang in there. Your wife might be lying, but she's also probably trying to put an end to the EA...it's just really hard. It has been the most confusing and hardest time of my life.<p>But my H was incredible. Always loving, kind, affectionate...and incredibly trusting throughout. He expected me to behave and as such, I was able to rise to the occassion. If he had expected me to cheat, I probably would have done that. Expectations are everything...so expect the very most from your wife. Be loving, let her know that her behavior is unacceptable, and that you hope that the EA ends asap...but don't be mean and give her an "excuse" to run to the OM. She will come around. If you want to have her write me or if you'd like to, feel free. I've been there and have learned so much and my H was so good, I'd love to tell you more.
ashirley1@hotmail.com

Spacecase:<p>My W is also having an EA, but I think she is on the down side of it (I hope! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] ).<p>IMHO, Bryamp has a few good points but the 'stuff' that I've seen work is closer to what has been suggested to you by 2long and Faith1.<p>Specifically, you may need to set boundries for your own self respect, but Plan A is mostly about you and making yourself a person who is more attractive in all facets (phisically and emotionally). When you do this, you feel more confident, more relaxed, and MUCH more capable of handling whatever the future holds. This may seem at first that you are distancing yourself from your W, but for me it meant that I was fixing myself, meeting her EN's when possible, and letting her know (through my actions) that I love her and want to be with her forever, but I will survive and thrive without her also. This ended my 'needy' stage that was suffocating my wife.<p>I hope this makes some sense.........<p>Gib

Great feedback everyone...thanks!!!
I'll try to answer/comment to all of you:
2long; I have tried to ask her about what the OM provides, but since she insists it's over (when it isn't), she can't very well tell me. I gave her an ENC to fill out, and she did so but half-heartedly. I've been making improvements in all these areas, and she recognizes this. I also fillen one out for her and she has also tried to make some changes. All good; except that at the same time she continues the EA, continues to lie, and keeps me off-balance...at times I feel like we're going to make it, at times I feel like she's just leading me on or that it may be what others call a "bridge" A, one designed to slowly, inexorably end the marriage without actually having to come out and say it or make the decision herself...wish I knew for sure or could more clearly identify which the strongest signals are: the good ones or the bad ones.
Faith1: I think you're right; I haven't Plan A'd as long as I need to...and yes, I am willing to put in the time, I just find it hard since I don't see progress on the truth/ending the A side, although I do see it in the EN changes. And I really have not been pressuring or questioning her mush anymore...I'm getting better at that. However, I should let her know what I suspect, shouldn't I?
ashirley; thanks for your post; very helpful to hear the other side. I think you may be right and that is exactly what is happening...hope so!
I'll email you and maybe if I see the chance of connecting you to my W, I will.
Gibby1; I think you are right. My plan A has not been in force long enough.
Thanks all!

bump

SC:<p>"2long; I have tried to ask her about what the OM provides, but since she insists it's over (when it isn't), she can't very well tell me. I gave her an ENC to fill out, and she did so but half-heartedly."<p>This isn't surprising, actually. I tried the same thing with my W, and she won't even fill out the questionaire. I find the best approach for me appears to be "guessing" what these missing needs are, and poking around until I find something that strikes a chord with her. It's taking a while, but it's working. I also will bounce MY needs off her, like honesty and openness, though not overtly, because she gets very angry when I imply that she's a lying, deceitful, cheating, betraying spouse (think about it, nobody likes to be described in those terms, maybe ESPECIALLY if they're accurate!). <p>"All good; except that at the same time she continues the EA, continues to lie, and keeps me off-balance..."<p>This will likely continue while she's in the fog, which will last longer than her A does. Focus on keeping your keel even, and you'll be better able to slough off her unfathomable behavior. She'll then become more attracted to you (or none of this will work and you'll be able to move to Plan B, but it's too early to tell whether you need to do that, yet). <p>"wish I knew for sure or could more clearly identify which the strongest signals are: the good ones or the bad ones."<p>This is really hard, don't I know! Again because we're dealing with irrational thoughts and behavior here!<p>Good luck, again!

Hi, Bryanp:<p>"If your wife is continuing to have a sexual affair with the OM then it is clearly unacceptable."<p>I don't think we know if this is happening. SC says she's not.<p>"She is continuing to put your health at risk and disrespecting you. She refuses to end it then it says a great deal."<p>If she's having a PA, she IS putting his health at risk. If it's "only" an EA, then she's putting his mental health at risk and is still disrespecting SC. Her refusal to end her EA does say a great deal - primarily about HER, though. She's messed up. Whether she's "worth" the work that SC is putting into their R is what we don't know, other than from what SC says. It's good that he's here, though.<p>"Let me ask you do you think if the roles were reversed she would allow you to continue to have sex with another woman while you were living with her in the marriage?"<p>I won't even ask this question of my WW, because I've been given every indication of what she would say. Something like "I would be happy for you!" This would "get her off the hook" for her behavior, because she wouldn't need to feel guilty about her choice to have an A if I were having one myself and being similarly dishonest with her. This approach would backfire, pure and simple. Interestingly, though things have been very good between my W and I over the past couple of weeks, she did ask me (again!) just the other night "why don't you go out and find somebody better?" She's still depressed and trying to shift emphasis off her A and somewhere else, so that she doesn't have to face what she's done. I simply said, honestly, that I won't have more than one intimate relationship at a time. Hypothetically reversing our roles, even though it's harmless "what if" thinking, won't accomplish any of the objectives I'm after in my case, so I won't do it, and I won't recommend it. (but it can be useful to contemplate internally, and the benefit is to clarify to myself the truly irrationality of my W's behavior).<p>"All contact must cease but she is not willing to do this. We call this a person wishing to have their cake and eat it too. She likes being married and the security that goes with and also enjoys having sex on the side with another man. This must not continue and you should not enable her to have the best of both worlds."<p>All very correct, clinical truth. In my case, and in the cases of many of the posters I've talked to recently, the only way to get contact to cease right now would be to demand it, because my WW isn't doing the best job of it on her own (she is trying, though, but doesn't want to "hurt" OM either). Yes, she's a cakewalker. Thankfully, she's not having sex with her OM (hasn't at least since last August), and also thankfully (though not THAT reassuringly) she didn't enjoy it that much even when it was going on. SC (and I) certainly should not "enable" our S's to have the best of both worlds, but one way to implement that is to do the good Plan A and make their choices clearer (one way or the other, frankly). If I demand NOW, my M may be over NOW. Since our repeated arguments about OM over the past 3 months have caused us to "start over", even in MC sessions, I've decided, based on discussion with my IC last week, to actually ask that my W and I, and our MC STOP talking about OM altogether, so we can try to make some progress on our own R without the distraction. This is easier to do in my case since the OM is out of state than it would be for SC, and I DO recognize that the disrespect to me and our M continues, but I think she'll recognize that as well. And, although I haven't told her this desire of mine to stop talking about OM yet (will do in front of MC on Tuesday), we HAVE focused on US this whole week, and our interaction has been simply wonderful. I won't forget that the OM issue hasn't been resolved, but I'm planting tons of love units in her bank as a result of this interaction, and I plan to continue to do this. If I have to go to Plan B at some point in the next several months because she won't let go of OM, the disparity between what he does for her and what I do for her and how she feels about our M will be huge. That's what I think works best for me.<p>"The Harley's believe that
6 months is the cut off point if you have been plan A'ing and she is still involved the affair then it is time for plan B."<p>That's a general rule. A good one, too, but some people have plan A'd far longer with success. What SC needs to do will depend on his situation and what he thinks he needs in the way of assurances and timeframes.<p>"There must be consequences to her actions or there simply is no reason for her to stop."<p>True, for the most part. BUT, if he does a great Plan A and builds his self-confidence and as a result becomes more attractive to his W, she will have ANOTHER reason to stop her A. More subtle, and possibly more fragile, but another reason nonetheless that may work for SC. It's the only way this will work for me. The alternative is to make her suffer the consequences of her behavior and actually blow the M and family apart NOW in the process. I simply have chosen not to work that way on my situation. SC will have to decide for himself what will work for him.<p>"The longer she disrespects you the less respect she will have for you and the less respect you will have for yourself."<p>Well, I see what you're saying here, but I don't feel that way in my case. I think her disrespect for me as a H and for our M is going on simultaneously with her steadily INCREASING respect for me as a person, because she knows what I will and won't tolerate in the long term. I'm putting the ball in her court, more with time. And as for respecting myself, I've learned so much about me and human behavior over the past 3 months my head is still spinning. No, I respect the $hit out of myself right now. I'm going to be fine, no matter what.<p>Don't mean to be antagonistic, here. Sorry if it comes across that way. This is just the way I work on this. It may not be what works for SC, and it's certainly not what most people do that post to this forum. But it, or something like it, is what a number of people have applied with success.

2Long;
Good feedback. I think (hope) you're right, and it makes sense; she doesn't necessarily want to tell me what OM is providing because I can probably show that I am also providing that, at least partly, now that I'm really trying.
By the way, when I gave her my ENC, she took it as "criticism"....still must feel it's all my fault and that she was fulfilling all my needs when I wasn't fulfilling hers...only I didn't go elsewhere to find them.
I will keep re-reading your post when I feel I need better signals....I think you're right; it'll take time to start getting all the signals...only WHEN?!?!?!

Bryanp/2Long:
Let's clarify since I think Bryanp misinterpreted.
My wife is having an EA not a PA; the guy's in prison and in another city, so she's only physically seen him a few times and I doubt they could have had more than casual physical contact in a prison visiting room/yard.
Which does NOT mean there may not be something else going on that I don't know about here locally....at this point, with all the lies and deception, I'm not really sure.
She sure is out all the time and does not account for her time to me....could be to communicate with the OM, could be to be away from me, could be for another relationship....I don't have a clue!

SC:<p>"By the way, when I gave her my ENC, she took it as "criticism"....still must feel it's all my fault and that she was fulfilling all my needs when I wasn't fulfilling hers...only I didn't go elsewhere to find them."<p>Bingo! Sounds so similar, it's scary.<p>"I will keep re-reading your post when I feel I need better signals....I think you're right; it'll take time to start getting all the signals...only WHEN?!?!?!""<p>That's for you to determine for your specific case. Good luck with that!

Very thankful for all the good feedback. 2Long, sounds like you and I have a very similar situation. VERY glad you're posting here!<p>Here's some more background on my story hoping it elicits more valuable insight:<p>Married 21 years (I guess '81 was agood year!), 3 kids, the eldest is 19 and
away at college, and twins that are 16, living at home.
I have been a computer consultant for several years and my last job (before
I was laid off) was 100% travel. I left on Mondays and returned on Fridays,
and of course weekends somehow managed to get so full of stuff to do, that
spending time with my wife and family was hard.
I had known that "things" weren't right between us for some time, but I
never acted on it, it was never that clear. I had a vague sense thet things
weren't right but that things would get better. I was laid off last August
and of course came home, started looking for work, etc. The first sign of
somehtoing not being right was that I felt she resented my being here! she'd
gotten used to my not being here and had built her life around that...funny.
In any case, I started seeing things that didn't seem right. Strange phone
calls, behavior that seemed "sneaky", until I decided I would listen to her
voice mail. Someone had left her a v-mail saying that they'd be sending the
$5,000 to her. When I asked her about this she said it was nothing, that she
was receiving this money for a friend. To make a long story short, it turns
out she had hooked up with an old boyfriend from her teens who was now in
prison for cocaine distribution, and had nobody to help him (2 divorced
wives, 2 children) so he'd asked my wife to help him. Apparently that's how
it started, but it soon became a serious EA, making plans, etc. When I found
out about it it had been going on for almost a year, and she'd traveled to
florida several time to visit him, with the excuse that she was working.
Of course, my first reaction was terrible; anger, screaming, demanding,
insutling, and all the rest (no physical violence) and an immediate demand
that she end it, throwing her out of the house, etc. etc.
That's when the lies started. That she had been emotionally involved but
that she no longer was, that she was only helping a friend in need. I said
fine, then why do it in secret?. If that's all it is, then do it in the
open, and be honest about it. She said no this was "her's" and she could not
let me participate. I started checking on her, her calls, voicemails, mail,
etc. and every time I'd find more evidence that it was not just helping a
friend, it was still emotional. Faced with the evidence, she changed her
tune to "it's over", and she simply set up more elaborate methods of
communication so I would not find out. But I did. I recorded calls, and when
I confronted her, her only defense was that it was her privacy, how dare I
spy on her, what kind of woman do you think I am, etc. This went on for a
while, and then in December she said she needed to go and see him to "end
it". I very reluctantly agreed, and planned this whole "starting over"
homecoming. I was ready to forgive, admitted to and started to work on all
the things we'd identified I'd been doing wrong, etc. etc.
But of course, it had not ended, she'd set up even more elaborate methods of
communication, and she had me so cowered by her reaction to my spying that I
found it difficult to do it. This went on for a couple more months, during
which I discovered Michele Weiner, Dr. Harley, many other books, etc. and
started to learn about this and how to "fix" it. We went to a marriage
couselor together for a few sessions, but she dropped out because she kept
lying to the counselor and I exposed the lies. So we each went to separate
counselors.
I began to implement the teachings of the various "specialists" (Harley,
Weiner-Davis) and began to basically "back off" and stop the intense agony
of pain I felt. Of course I could not always stick to "the program" and
sometimes went back to spying or other such nonsense. We both began to work
on those things we'd seen where we were neglecting each other, and the
environment at home improved a lot. We were more loving, had more sex, and
in general treated each other better, all the while she's continued contact
and I tried to be as patient as I can, showing her that I'm sorry for the
emotional needs I'd not been fulfilling, and showing her that I can change,
want to change, and that I love her and want to save our marriage. She's
done many of the same things as well.
However, there's the "dark" side. She continues contact, she continues to
have her "secret life", and in many other ways she
is "distant" and "separate". She has her own activities and rarely let's me
participate, she "I did this" for things where in the past she'd said "We
did this", and in general I feel she has this dual mode life; in some things
we're together, in others she still has her "other" life.
She says she wants to work on the marriage, that she loves me, and sometimes
I believe her; want to believe her. At other times, I think she's just
"playing me", somehow keeping me convinced that she does want us to work
out, while waiting for "something" to happen when she can just dump me. Why
do I feel this? because she doesn't want to talk about things in detail, and
really work on our marriage. She continues the contact thinking that I don't
know, and she has not understood that if we're ever really going to fix our
marriage, she has to end it, end the lies and secrets, and start really
sharing our lives together. The trust has been broken and she just expects
me to turn it back on again, she insists that what she's doing to work on
our marriage should be enough to show that this is what she really wants,
that I should not ask for more.
So that's where I am right now; trying to work on fulfilling her needs,
dealing with the lies and deception as best I can, avoiding confrointation,
and hoping for the best. But I know I need to do more, I just don't know
what.
I don't know how to help her understand that she has to end it, that she has
to start trusting me too, that I understand and can accept what happened,
and forgive, but that I cannot forgive before she ends it, that I cannot
truly committ to doing everything for our marriage and for her while she
still lies and deceives, and that we cannot truly build a solid marriage if
we don't work through these things.
I don't know whether I should let her know that I still suspect her lies, or
whether I should gather proof of contact and confront her again, or what...I
feel we're stagnant...that we worked through some things but were not there
yet, and she shows no signs of feeling that we need to move forward.
Anything I propose; let's talk, let's implement a plan, asking her what she
thinks we should do, elicits no response. It's as if she just wants to leave
things as thay are and feels this is enough, and feels that it should be
enough for me as well.
I know it isn't and I'm beginning to feel like I'm giving her too much room,
so she's in the best of both worlds and happy. I've backed off, I treat her
better than ever, I'm not giving her a hard time, and at the same time she
continues the relationship which fulfills her in some way. What could be
better? This way she doesn't have to face the end of the A, and she doesn't
have to face the hard work of rebuilding our marriage or making a decision.
I'm preparing for Plan B, although I think I need to modify my plan A and
keep it going for more time before I make that move. I suspect if I do it
too soon, she will just react by rejecting me and ending the marriage rather
than feel like she "lost".....

SC:<p>"My wife is having an EA not a PA; the guy's in prison and in another city, so she's only physically seen him a few times and I doubt they could have had more than casual physical contact in a prison visiting room/yard."<p>Sounds scary. What's he doing time for? How did they meet? If he's a violent criminal, is your W someone you want to be around at all? <p>I once worked in a machine shop with such an individual. He was having an A with a MW, and didn't understand why she got so upset when her H blew his brains out in their bed while she was asleep. You don't need to be in a M, even with someone having an A with a dangerous person. If that's what he's in for, that is.<p>"Which does NOT mean there may not be something else going on that I don't know about here locally....at this point, with all the lies and deception, I'm not really sure."<p>You may need to evaluate the quality of your M, in this case. It's hard for me to imagine she's having multiple A's, otherwise they're each not that important to her emotionally, and I would be surprised if any otherwise decent woman would have multiple A's (since EN's are usually what attract them in the first place). <p>"She sure is out all the time and does not account for her time to me....could be to communicate with the OM, could be to be away from me, could be for another relationship....I don't have a clue!"<p>But you must have some clues as to your W's integrity, at least before the A (particularly when you M'd). Is she important to you? Is your M important to you? Do you love her? At some level, you do have to trust her to at least act in her own best interest. Hopefully, that will keep her from being really stupid and having multiple As, but the best thing would be for her to feel that coming back to you and your M is coming home to a safe base. <p>The other thing to consider is whether you've already been doing a good plan A to this point in time or not. If so, and you are confident in yourself and your ability to live alone if you have to, then maybe it is time now to go to a Plan B and "force her hand" as Bryanp has suggested, in effect. If she cares about you and your M, maybe she'll wake up when you do that. But be sure you're ready for DV if it doesn't produce the results you desire. You shouldn't go to plan B unless you're ready for DV.<p>Take care, I have to go pack boxes now!

Wow, Spacecase! Your W & my H could be the same person! My WH is saying that he's ended EA, but then next 5 minutes is saying how he cares for her, tells me I don't know 'how hard it is,' etc. I can't trust him any farther than I can see him..... I hired a private investigator just so I wouldn't feel I was being unfair not believing the lies. It did help me get a grip on reality. I cannot believe a thing he says either, sad to say. His EA has involved a couple of kisses, he's confessed. That moves it somewhat into PA territory. But he still insists that he could NEVER IMAGINE sex with OW. He has a little trouble in that area every now and then with me. I can't believe he would set himself up to be embarrassed with OW like that. That is ONLY reason I believe the ONLY an EA thing!<p>This is sooooo painful. That's my perspective. It's the 'not knowing' how long it will take for it to be over that is just so awful! If I knew it would be over in 3 months, I could do that. But 24 months? If it's like it's been recently, everyday for the next 18 months (already been 6 months!) I just don't think my nerves can take that......<p>You've sure addressed my worries, Spacecase. I know just where you're coming from. Living with these people with scrambled brains is really a test of endurance, if nothing else!<p>Good luck and God bless~
amazingrace

I have to give you guys a lot of credit for hanging in there. My H and I ended up separated for 9 mos during his EA/PA with my former best friend. I could NOT take seeing him moping around about her, going to her house, etc. <p>Our counselor said she would not counsel him until he had broken off all contact. It took a while, I went alone in the meantime. <p>You are very committed and determined. I don't know if I could have handled that. The few weeks he was here before he moved out I was a basket case. It was very hard being alone, but the constant tension was gone anyway.<p>I wish you all luck, and peace.

2Long;
He's in for distribution of cocaine. Expected release date sometime in 2010, barring appeals, etc. They met when they were teenagers and dated back then. I have no idea how he found her again, maybe they'd been in touch before he was sent to prison...I don't know but I suspect it.<p>I know; having multiple affairs is a stretch, but you know, my mind plays trick on me and we imagine the worst...she's probably not. Just disappearing so she can talk, send/receive mail, be away from me because of guilt, who knows.<p>Oh, I love her and have always trusted her, we've had a good marriage in many ways, great kids, great moral values, which makes so much more diffucult to deal with the betrayal...She's a good woman, and worth my efforts to win her back.<p>I think she feels she cannot trust my reactions as I've reacted very strongly to disagreement before, was very demanding and probably did not create an environment where free discussion of ideas was safe. I've been working on that more than anything else, and succeeding, but it'll take time.<p>Also, she's always been very slow to make decisions; a bad work scene and she'd stick around forever not wanting to make the decision to leave; always complaining about it but never doing anything about it. Very much in character for her to be this way.<p>I think I need to continue on Plan A, make some changes to it, and I'm probably not ready for plan B. That's just my impatience showing through; the Martian saying let's deal with this NOW.<p>But whare I'm unsure is how/what to change about my plan A. Should I let her know I know it hasn't ended, or should I pretend I don't? What limits should I set and on what? etc. maybe some feedback from others around?
What have you done 2long?

Amazingrace;
Love to discuss it more. When I've found similar circumstances it makes it easier to offer and recive advice.

In case anyone would like to email, I've reactivated my old spacecase email:<p>spacecase59@yahoo.com