Trusting him and giving him space didn't work at all. It just made him easy for him to do whatever he wanted and lie about it to me.<p>Trying to talk rationally and explain how painful this sort of thing was for me, and how much damage it could to our marriage, did nothing at all. I saw his e-mail. Nothing changed at all. He just tried to tell me that it had so I would shut up and go back to trusting him and asking no questions.<p>Coming unglued and becoming enraged from the pain and frustration of it did nothing except make him angry. I was making him feel like an "@sshole" and he didn't like that.<p>Now that I am exhausted and drained and ready to pass out from the pain, he seems to be just fine. His life goes on as usual. He goes to work, comes home when he wants, takes the kids out, goes out with his brother-in-law, makes plans to go to weddings alone, and gets ready for next week's business trip.<p>Oh, I can go to these things too if I want, but if I don't go it is no problem for him whatsoever.
It's not even a bump in the road for him. <p>I thought that watching our relationship die might be a wake-up call for him, but so far it has made not one iota of difference. I could lay down and die right in front of him and he still wouldn't understand. He would just go right on with his life as usual with not one bit of concern for whether I am there or not.<p>He has talked a lot about "honor." About how important honor is to him. He's always been very interested in knights, chivalry, samurai, things like that, and so was I. And he has raged at me about how important honor has always been to him, look at what it has done for us, look at how nice our house is!<p>I wonder where all this honor was when he was driving off-site with his favorite friends, and then lying to me about it? In his back pocket?<p>Honor is damned inconvenient sometimes.<p>His idea of "fixing this" is for us to go out and have lots of fun together, and then come home and have lots of sex. But that's all. <p>Talking honestly to me about these women and answering my questions and telling me about the gifts and the trips and the pictures and the god knows what else is strictly off limits and i will be very sorry if I ask again.<p>But he "loves me and wants more than anything to fix this."<p>Well, he has certainly taught me a lesson. He'll teach me to ask him questions. He'll teach me to withdraw because the pain gets to be too much to bear. He'll go straight on without me and I had just better get up and go after him and be happy to take what he's offering and never ask one more question ever again.<p>He'll teach me that if I'm going to hurt him by asking questions and expecting answers, he'll hurt me four times as much. He should be very happy today. He's succeeded beyond his wildest dreams.<p>I can't do this anymore

Oh psycho, I am so sorry you are going through this. I don't know what else to say. For what it's worth, and coming from a WS I hope it helps a tiny bit, but your pain is real and I feel it. I know it would mean so much more coming from him, but that I can't give you. All I can offer is my support of you and to let you know you are in my heart. Remember, we are here for you. Take care of YOU now. My best to you.

I think it's time for the Last Resort Technique from The Divorce Remedy by Michele Weiner-Davis. I started feeling better right away when I did this. Secondarily it resulted in my H pursuing me. We still have yet to get to the bottom of a lot of his A issues, but I'm less enmeshed in him and what he does or doesn't do. I'm stronger and more able to deal with stuff.<p>If you manage it and do a good job of it, your H, like mine, will think he's out of the woods, but you will know, as do I, that the day for full disclosure will come because if it doesn't, the day of service of the court papers will come instead. Either way, you will be able to relax somewhat inside yourself because of your knowledge that the day of blessed relief will come in one of those forms.<p>For me, it is like this: The prerequisite for remaining in the M is full disclosure, equality, and mutual effort in rebuilding the M. If he opts for less than full disclosure, then that is fine because I don't NEED full disclosure to divorce his a$$ and get on with my life. My ex-H NEVER admitted his adultery, and I've gotten along just fine without disclosure from him because I just got along with him, period.<p>Secrets prohibit intimacy. If I can't have intimacy, then what is the point of having a relationship? I can have lack of intimacy with ANYONE, many of whom would treat me better in a multitude of ways. There might actually be a man out there who LIKES to kiss, for instance.<p>If it's really that important for them to keep their secrets, then they can keep them all the way out the door and hug them close at night instead of their spouse.<p>For now, just let it go. Let him go. Detach. Focus on you and nurturing yourself. Don't ask any questions.<p>If he says he's going to an office bimbo opportunity, just say, "Okay, that is your choice, but my feelings about it haven't changed, and each time you choose to be the cause of my unhappiness, my feelings for you deteriorate accordingly." If he goes into a rage, let him rage. "I feel the way I feel. It hurts. The natural consequence of pain is to avoid the source of pain." "I recognize you have your choices to make, and so do I."<p>Be nonreactive. Stand still no matter how hard he tries to buffet you and knock you off your feet. Be a rock. Reach down inside yourself and hang on to your core that KNOWS you cannot go on living like this. Don't lash out. Don't fall apart. Remain quiet, calm and confident.

<<<If it's really that important for them to keep their secrets, then they can keep them all the way out the door and hug them close at night instead of their spouse.>>><p>He's made it very clear that it IS that important. He will let me rot in hell rather than give me an honest, open answer about anything.<p>I hope he's proud of himself. He won. I'm sure his son and daughter are very proud of him, too.<p>But that's ok. The people at work -- especially the women -- think he is absolutely a Knight In Shining Armor. And nothing has ever been more important than that.

PsychoB - my WH also has that whole honor thing going on, and I cannot understand what happens to those concepts while they are lying and engaging in behavior that they know is dishonorable. When I wanted him to send his no-contact letter, he didn't want to because it would make him "look bad" in the eyes of others.<p>My heart is breaking for you. It is no comfort now, but eventually he will reap the harvest from his actions and your children and the people at work will see his core. You can do this, and come out stronger, better, faster (isn't that the line from the Bionic Man?)

Hey PB- Your situation reminds me so much of a great book I read by Barbara Cochran Berry-- It is called 'Life After Johnnie Cochran.' Ever read it? I know you could get a nearly new copy off Ebay. Her life story sounds alot like what you're going thru. Take care- lifesmessy

Just wanted to add my support. You've got some decisions to make... [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]

Hi PB, I am so sorry for the anguish you are clearly feeling. You need to take care of YOU. And remember, your children will respect you all the more for standing up for yourself and not taking the abuse your H is dishing out. You wouldn't want them to stay in this kind of relationship! You have received good advice so far from others. Be strong. I feel for you.

PB~
I know all about the craziness you are living in. My WH has not claimed 'honor,' but he does claim this EA is totally 'innocent' because there has not been sex. YET. Everytime I try to discuss my feelings with him about it, he says 'ok, I guess you won't be happy till I f*** her....' He says 'we're not doing anything wrong...' OK I guess the lying to me about meeting her, the note she wrote him (that he showed me) about how she loves him and has to know how he feels about her, that OW told him she's ready to leave her H and be with him...I guess all that's just innocent, right?<p>Then the next 15 minutes he's telling me how he knows what he's doing is wrong, but OW us emotionally unstable and he doesn't know how to end it with her, when he tries, she doesn't take him seriously.....<p>Then 5 minutes later, he says OW is really getting on his nerves, but if he ends it with her I will 'win' and he can't let me think I can control him like that......<p>Conqueror~
I LOVE your post! I'm going to print it for referring to when I need to reply to my WH. I try so hard to be detached and calm. WH usually gets the best of me. He knows just what buttons to push. Then he uses my reactions to justify himself. I know about LBing. BUT NOT reacting to this abuse is VERY difficult! Your statements are just what I need to state my feelings and NOT LB.<p>PB, I think if we can just detach from our WS and show them they are NOT everything that life is about for us, they might actually take notice of that. I just don't seem to be able to do it for more than a day or two. (Usually just one day... [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] ) <p>Let's work on this together, ok PB? Everything works better if you have a buddy. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>amazingrace [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

Grace,<p>I understand how difficult it is, especially when they say such outrageous things. When I could feel myself starting to get sarcastic or my voice getting louder (my anger reactions) or I could feel the tears coming, those were my clues to end the interaction immediately, and I would just say, "I need to stop talking about this right now." and physically leave the area, even if I had to lock myself in the bathroom, turn the shower on full blast and cry my heart out in private or get in the car and go to a secluded corner of a parking lot to bawl my eyes out or call a friend to vent at.<p>The sad thing is that I've found that as my positive feelings deteriorate it gets easier and easier to remain calm and confident. As they say, hatred is not the opposite of love, indifference is. When you don't care anymore, they cannot push your buttons no matter how hard they try. The trick is learning to hold onto yourself while still remaining connected to your partner no matter how much what they are doing is upsetting you.<p>I try to visualize it as an infection that I am immunized against. While he is all agitated and doing his thing, I won't "catch" it because I have prepared myself and will hold onto myself. Another way to visualize it is kind of like a permeable force field that only lets good stuff in and the bad stuff bounces off.<p>When you connect solidly to your "core of consciousness" as Dr. Phil calls it, you know how silly these rationalizations and "explanations" are and how childish it is. Rise above it and be the adult. Over and over again during this ordeal I have felt like I'm right back to dealing with an out-of-control adolescent. The only way to deal with that is the same as this. Be the adult. Stand your ground. Do not get sucked in to their "logic". Keep seeing the big picture.<p>In fact, I've found it helpful to quote back my H's own words that he spoke to his adolescent children. [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] I figure deep down somewhere he knows how ridiculous the things he's saying are and, like a kid, is looking for someone to call him on it and hold him accountable. It's certainly not fun being mommy to a grown man who should know and do better.

PB~
I'm not trying to steal your thread. I seem to have a tendency to do that, I've found. I have trouble just replying to a post without getting into my own issues too. I've posted a few threads with moderate responses. I'll be brief here, and this will be all, I promise!<p>Conqueror~
Thanks so much for that wonderful post. It does mean so much to think others are walking in these shoes, fighting the same fight as I am. We can learn so much from each other too.<p>I love the 'immunization' and 'force field' comparison. With my WH who is also alcoholic (could he have more going for him? [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] ) I've sometimes thought of myself as being coated in a heavy layer of Vaseline. Trust me, nothing can get thru that stuff! One of my daycare kids covered themselves and my couch with it once--I know what I'm talking about! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] I imagined all the ugly things he said to me just ran off in little droplets, not being able to reach me.<p>I told my WH at the beginning of our ordeal with this EA (or whatever it is) when he told me he 'wasn't doing anything wrong' so he told me not to be so bent out of shape about what he was doing. I told him when I stopped caring about what he did, then I'd stop caring about HIM. He seemed to think about that for about 30 seconds. I think most of our problems come from loving our spouses SOOOO MUCH. It's hard to let them feel the consequences of their irresponsible behavior.<p>There's a fine line somewhere to walk, between LB and having OUR love bank reserves drained by WS. Hope your advice makes it a little easier for me to discover where that line is, AND WALK IT.<p>Our youngest child (our 5th) is 17. I've dealt with enough adolescent behavior in my 27 years as a mother. I do not want to go thru it again with my WH!<p>Thanks again~
amazingrace

Unfortunately, I think the LBank drainage is inevitable if the WS doesn't get with the program and stop LBing and start filling ENs. It think that it is because this is so inevitable and so natural and pervasive that enabled Dr. Harley to develop the Love Bank concept. He saw it over and over and over.<p>I'm not so sure that a subsequent A by the BS is as much motivated by revenge as it is just the natural progression of the stage setting that precedes all affairs--LBank drainage by the spouse and deposits by the OP.

psycho_b,
How was the weekend? You know how this "recovery" stuff goes, it's one day at a time...