I chickened out last night. We went out for a steak after WH got off work, but we were both tired and the timing just didn't feel right to have the "talk of all talks."<p>(For those who haven't a clue as to what I'm talking about, here's the thread from yesterday that will fill you in:BIG LIE: OW didn't end A w/WH....<p>We talked a little about A during dinner. WH said he'd told OW that we were having a big talk that night. He asked what I wanted to talk about while we were eating, but I told him it wasn't the right time. He was happy not to mention it again, I could tell.<p>This morning after we woke up, I knew it was now or never..... So while we were still in bed, I asked him if he wanted to know the reason I had to ask him to stop making love to me Thursday night. He said yes. I said it was because I had heard the conversation he had with OW in parking lot at work. He said "how? the recorder was right THERE?" pointing to where he has it. I didn't say anything about the other one I'd bought. I just said "it's downloaded in the computer if you want to hear it." I told him I'd heard him tell her twice that he loved her and ask her about 3 or 4 times if she loved him. I told him that didn't sound like 'it was over.'<p>He said he loved her; he didn't know what to do about it and that making him stop seeing her wouldn't make him stop loving her.<p>I took a deep breath and told him I could not be with him if he loved another woman. I could not live with all the lies and deceit. I felt like a fool always trying to believe him, then finding out that he had lied. And I was very tired of living like this....<p>We talked a long time about all this and the fog really seemed to lift. He said that after we talked on the phone yesterday, after he'd been home for lunch, he told OW that he was going to have to either move out or stop seeing her. He told her if he came into work today and didn't speak to her, she'd know what had happened. OW said that was her biggest fear--that he'd end it with her. I told him my biggest fear is that he will do nothing and still try to have both OW & me in his life. <p>I told him I was totally willing for him to move out, because I was pretty sure he'd realize he really did love me and want our M back. If that was the only way for him to totally get OW out of his system, then let's go for it. I could still hang onto the love I had left for him and want him back. If he stayed and kept on lying to me, then I would lose all my love for him and be finished with him eventually. Leaving would be much better for our M. He was pretty amazed at this part of the conversation.....He said "you'd really still love me if I moved out?" <p>He said when he mentioned moving out to OW yesterday she told him next weekend she and her H were going away for the weekend to celebrate their 30th anniversary. OW said she could tell her H about A then, and tell him she was leaving. Wow, wouldn't that be a great anniversary gift from your S? <p>WH said he told her 'no, don't do that!' He said he never planned to move out; I told him if A doesn't end you will have to......<p>WH says he knows he has to tell her he's staying in w/me and work on M. He wasn't mad at all about taping conversation. It was weird.....very calm discussion. We talked about him loving her. I explained that it's infatuation, not love; love is based on sharing life together in good times and bad, not just having fun and sneaking around to be together. I said that all the secret stuff created this whole aura of 'closeness' that wasn't really real. He said that made a lot of sense. I told him that was one reason I wanted them to move in together--so I could be the one with the peaceful happy feelings for him and OW could experience some of the problems living in the real world. I was tired of being the 'bad guy' in the R and OW being the 'fun, nice one.'<p>We ended our talk with the understanding that A was ending or WH was moving out. He says he's ending it, not moving out.

As he was getting ready for work this morning, he said his brain was so tired from all the A stuff. He said it would be such a relief not to think about it anymore. He said he wanted his life back. I said "a second life is a lot of trouble." He agreed.<p>I know it's not over yet, but he knows for sure where I stand. He shared a lot of conversations he's had with OW without me asking. He was like a balloon with all the air let out of it.....<p>He's called from work several times today to keep in touch and told me several things OW said to him. She's not happy, said she knows something is wrong with him, even though he hasn't had a chance to tell her his decision. She got to work after he did and it's been very busy. (I picked him up for his lunch break.) He said she got called into the office cause the front manager wanted to know what was wrong with her. Maybe she's having a bad day--I wouldn't know about that now, would I? [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] <p>At least now I have some hope. He asked if I wanted him to carry the tape recorder in his pocket so I could hear what he told her. I said it wasn't a bad idea; that other husband's had actually done things like that to restore trust with their wives..... [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>We won't be out of the woods till he's not at that store, but I know that just the act of leaving his job won't be magic....<p>Where's that private jet and the deserted island when you need them?<p>amazingrace

Gracie, Good for you!! You did a great job holding your boundaries, and self respect with no LB's. Pat yourself on the back for me, and I am so happy for you. Have a great weekend.

Holy Smokes AG !<p>I nearly fell outta my chair when I read that OW plans to tell her H about her A and inform him she was leaving him during the weekend of their 30th anniversary celebration! Be assured of this fact ---> your H sees this as the cruel and heartless action that it is!!! This reveals her character to your H ... and he is probably scared ****less of her... I mean really, if she can do this unspeakable act to her spouse after 30 years ... just think what else she is capable of. [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] She might as well wear a sign around her neck that reads:<p>WARNING ... do not trust or rely on me because I will turn on you! <p>Wow ... just wow!<p>Pepper [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]

Hi AG,<p>It does feel good to get it out in the open. You have shown that it also can be done in a calm manner but it requires 2 to participate. <p>Now you have put the onis on your H. You may see a bit of backsliding. Know that when an OW is threatening D from her H she is sending signals that she wants to be in control. So expect a some 'psyco' type of control holds on your H. If he is not a strong character it may be rough. <p>Your assessment about the 'love' vs infatuation is accurate and the fact that he is acknowledging it is a good sign. <p>Well you are on the right path. Hope your H is smart enough to stay with you and go in the right direction. OW sounds like trouble no matter who she is with. <p>I am proud of U! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Hugz,
L.

sfmc~
Thanks so much for the back-pats! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I struggle with boundaries, but you know, I've gotten so sick of WH that it was not hard at all to be straight with him this morning! I think that was another reason for the calmness....I had nothing to lose, no matter how it went. <p>After reading what I posted it sounded like I talked way too much--but it wasn't as lopsided as I retold it. I was able to make him understand what I was talking about--a GREAT thing for one in the FOG!! He shared a lot of his feelings with me about all of it and I think it was real progress......<p>Pepper~
That was my reaction EXACTLY! I could NOT believe she would plan to do that to her H!! It seemed to alarm WH too!<p>Tonight when he called from work he said he'd been thinking about telling her to go ahead and tell OWH that she was leaving him next weekend. He said she'd caused so much trouble in our M that it would serve her right to be left with no one. (When OW told him what she planned to do on her anniversary weekend, she said she had to be sure about leaving her H, cause he would not let her come back. She said she knew that I would let WH back, I loved him so much.....she was very worried about the moving out thing.)<p>Then he said that would not be right to mess up her life on purpose and I agreed....but it's fun to think about! (Just like the taping you suggested, sfmc [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] )<p>Thanks so much, you guys, for your feedback! H is off work tomorrow. I think we will make some happy memories.<p>amazingrace

Pepper .... you are so RIGHT ON!<p>My H told me our marriage was over the morning of our 14th Wedding Anniversary .... then he promptly said we should plan a special dinner for that evening to celebrate.<p>Do you think he meant celebrate our Anniv, or our marriage being over??? I really don't remember cuz I was borderline hysterical/in shock after that.<p>Gracie,<p>You did so good. So calm, so understanding and never let down your boundaries. You're doing great.<p>I think you may know that there is still some things to go thru. Stick to your boundaries, be respectful of your H and Plan A, and keep posting for support.<p>Love,
Jo<p>[ April 27, 2002: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

Just remember to believe your H's actions, NOT his words only.<p>While reading your post, I kept on thinking to myself, "he's lying. He's telling her what she wants to hear". But then when you mentioned HE thought of the idea to tape all of his conversations with OW for you to hear - I'm thinking that your H may be finally seeing clearly (for the time being anyways).<p>Keep your guard up. Keep up with your plan A. And keep on creating that safe environment for your H. You're doing great! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] (by the way, when my H and I had the same talk that you and your H just had, contact with OW#1 continued... but only for 3 weeks. Once I discovered renewed contact, and calmly told him that I didn't think we were ready to reconcile and why... he straightened out, and immediately began to rebuild my trust again by giving me passwords, etc.).<p>In other words... I think you're getting really close to the start of recovery. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Karen<p>[ April 27, 2002: Message edited by: Topie25 ]</p>

Orchid~
Thanks!!!<p>The talk went so well, even I was surprised about the calm way we were able to discuss all this!<p>I know what you're saying about the OW. I really don't think she's playing with a full deck! [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] I think H is a little concerned too.....<p>After lunch I had to take my H's truck back to the dealership till we get the tax papers filled out that they need to process the loan, so listen to this, THIS IS GREAT-------
MY CAR IS PARKED IN LOT IN SPACE RIGHT NEXT TO OW's CAR!! WH said she was going to be afraid to get in her car tonight!!! I LOVE IT!!!
(She parks right next to WH in the parking lot....gag~puke~gag)<p>Laughter does good like a medicine......<p>amazingrace

Resilient~
Oh, how horrible for your H to do that! How did that turn out? I'm a little new to MB, so I don't know everyone's stories.<p>Thanks for the encouragement. I feel so much more in charge of ME now. It's not about what WH does anymore. No matter what, I can make it. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Topie25~
I knew someone would think that he was lying--so did I!! But he said several things that were really different than anything he'd said about A. And when he said how tired his brain was of thinking about A, wasting his days off wondering if she was trying to call him or making secret plans to meet...his face reflected what he was saying. He LOOKED really tired when he said he wanted his life back.<p>And I thought him suggesting the 'taping' was pretty neat myself! <p>He also didn't freak out when he found I'd changed his password to the cell phone account online and had been tracking their calls. He thought he'd forgotten the password when it didn't work and had to call and get it! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Karen, you said: In other words... I think you're getting really close to the start of recovery. <p>Recovery! A few days ago it seemed like it might not EVER happen......now it might actually be in the future! Isn't life amazing..... [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>amazingrace

from 1 bs to another bs GO GRACIE!!!!<p>You have it so right when you refer to it as the "fog". When I first found out it went back and forth so much--and that is what hurt so bad. But she was playing on everything she had--especially the guilt for "risking it all for him". My hubby is not a insensitive person--and she played it for all it was worth.<p>Any-it seemed like it took FOREVER For the fog to lift. I begged and acted like a crazy woman at first. When I finally was just exhausted of it all and did like what you did--he finally started to see the light. It was a relief when the fog started to clear and he really started to look at things and her for what they really where. <p>When my h first went to counseling and told the mc about the ow she was straight and too the point. She said "Well, that was a nice little fantasy you both had going". <p>We are doing pretty good now--there where a few "hazy" spots here and there; but we seem to have some pretty bright sunny days ahead of us. <p>Is it as important to you as it was to me to KNOW HE REALIZED IT WAS INFATUATION AND FANTASY? That was something I felt we did have to do a lot--put the affair in perspective for what it really was. I could see it was bogus -- but he could not at first. <p>He says there is no emotion there now at all and he only see's it all as a big mistake and regret. I hope he means it. I have to believe he does because the one thing I could not stand to do was live with a man that I thought dreamed of being with someone else the rest of our life. <p>I think when he took the rose colored glasses off what he really saw in her was a very untrustworthy selfish person. I think commitment with her scared him since he would be #3...<p>He now thanks me for being so strong and having faith in us. He says he is glad I sent him a life line and pulled him back to shore" instead of letting him go. <p>Hold strong Gracie, there is bound to be a few hazie days for you BUT stand strong and the sun will always shine eventually. Have you ever know the fog to have the endurance hang low all day when the sun comes shining through? I know I havent. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

hurtbuthealing143~
Your experience and encouragement mean a lot to me. I've met some of the nicest people in the world here!<p>I thought I might go seriously insane during this...my H's attitude and what he'd say about A changed every 5 minutes, it seemed. He'd say something really insightful and encouraging, then the next breath say how he couldn't let me tell him who his friends could be or how 'innocent friendship was' with this OW.<p>I know there are still some long days ahead, but now I can hopefully see light at the end of the tunnel. A few days ago it was pretty dark in there!<p>He told her after work last night about his decision to stay with me and not leave. She shed a few tears and asked if she could still talk to him.....he said he told her it would only make things harder. Then she hung onto his arm and wouldn't let him get in his car. The last thing she said to him was to call her today or come by, or BOTH! She doesn't think he means it--I'm sure of that. He's told her before he had to quit being with her, but it's always been like it was MY decision. This time I really think it's his decision and that's what makes it different. He will have to show her he means it though, and I know that will be tough.<p>He called me on the way home and told me what was said. We talked some more and then he said this: "I have a lump in my throat. I shouldn't feel like this. Is this normal? Does that website say anything about this?"\<p>I thought that was so funny that now he's wanting to know what MB says about things!! I've quoted so many things to him from MB, but he never asked for any information before...I guess he really was listening all those times he said nothing!<p>I told him yes, it was normal. I reminded him about the addiction thing and how it was to be expected that he'd feel sad about what had happened. We talked all his drive home. It was good to talk so openly about it.<p>He's off today and there's a really relaxed atmosphere in our home we haven't felt in a long time. <p>We might be on our way to those sunny days you were talking about! [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img] <p>amazingrace

(((AG)))<p>Nice [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Be prepared ... this OW is not going to give up her drug (your H!) without some sort of struggle. In her mind, your H is making the worst mistake of his life.<p>BE PREPARED for just about anything.<p>drive bys<p>hang-up calls<p>letters<p>threats of any variety<p>making a scene on the job<p>Here is my humble suggestion (OK ... NOT so humble, but there you are [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] ).... If you actually feel threatened --> her H may need to be brought into the loop.<p>Be prepared.<p>Pepper [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ April 28, 2002: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</p>

This is great, AG!<p>Episodes like the one you describe, even if we all know some of it might back-track, are the definitive steps forward we all wish for in our path to Recovery.<p>Thanks for sharing it, it renews my hope that the day will come when I can have a similar conversation with my WW, and especially, that she will talk about it instead of becoming furious, defensive, and continue to lie.

Amazing,
Good Job! Way to go!! Sounds like you have done a great job of communicatng and keeping your cool! Sounds like your WH is starting to come around & it sounds like you are starting to believe more of what he tells you -- re-building some trust, which is a good thing.<p>Like you had said & others, IMHO, you still need to be guarded to some degree about how honest he is being and at the least, be prepared for him to have some slips!<p>I believe you should still consider alternative plans and think ahead to anticipate how you may handle a slip & more evidence they are still in this fling. At this stag I am thinking it might be good to anticiate the worst, then hope for the best, but if that does not continue, you won't fall back so much.<p>The 30th anniversay thing with OW gave me some trigggers -- what I now know, we celebrated our 30th in the midst of my DW's A's -- It is a reminder to me that what seems to be so, may in fact not be the case. What I mean is that I had given her flowers with what I felt was romantic note about a surprize getaway weekend. I had more floweres & wine at room & had our two couples friends meet us -- lots of physical intimacy -- I had had my suspions about an A, but the weekend gave me impression we were doing great -- lots of people said I did great job & the ladies said they whished their H was so thoughtful!
A part of her confession on D/Day was that she remembered the first time she was with the one guy in a motel was within a week of returning from our aniversay weekend -- she said she remembered because she remebers talking with OM about it. It seemed the first time in the motel was focal point & highlight & the anniversary was just a remindr of that! [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] Kind of killed positive memories of 30th! [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p> This "need to cheat" thing can be overpowering & transends normal logic!! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Keep us Updated & Best of luck with continued success!! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

Also, continued HUGS!
HH

Kind of killed positive memories of 30th! <p>HH~
I sure know what you mean about that!!<p>My WH and & went on our first vacation without any kids the first week of December. Just a quick trip to Florida, but a nice little getaway, you know?<p>The EA was in full swing then, but I hadn't realized how big. I did have my radar up though and perceived trouble. I thought I'd make this be the vacation to remember--and planned all sorts of things to surprise my H with. I took candles, new lingerie...really good plans! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Well, we did have wonderful incredible sex--my H said I took his breath away.... We tried to have one conversation about the 'friendship,' but it didn't go too well. One the trip home I had to bring it up and didn't get anywhere either. He was so much in denial/fog even then, that nothing I said could penetrate.<p>I still thought we'd had a really great vacation till I read OW's note. Remember the one I quoted from? She said "you called from Florida, guess you liked me better then?" WH called OW from our vacation!! Those memories are certainly tarnished--you can believe that!!!<p>Thanks for the HUG!<p>amazingrace