With a recent reply to a post, I experienced a revaluation of sorts! I was reminded of my generally pleasant, happy demeanor. It reminded me of some things my DW described in a counseling session last summer. She said she always felt that she was not Good enough for me - Perhaps she meant that she resented my always having positive, optimistic attitude & politeness, (she also commented in same C session on that she resented this & she put a negative twist to, like perhaps I was not always honest with my feelings -- the counselor asked if she ever showed an appreciation for that, to which she did not respond, cause she had not.)
She has many times inferred that I was always "too nice or polite" -- I can now assume that she meant she likes that "bad boy" kind of attitude, tuff, "man of man" kind of approach -- this is how she depicted to me as to how the first lawn guy was with his attitude, that he would blow her off & that more or less served as a motivation for her to pursue him! And in fact the first guy stood her up one time & that was motivation for her to call the second guy (with whom was a friend of the first guys and she drove 15 miles to his place! -- to make first guy jealous! That was November 1 & supposedly she was with the second guy 01/17-01, & she did not see first guy since Nov. 1 - so she must have gotten over that jealousy thing?!).
Do I want to try and adopt this "bad boy" attitude and base a long term, lasting marital relationship on Disrespectful, Judgmental, Harsh, domineering kinds of behavior - this is how her dad is -- is this sick or what?! She has said many times (as well as our children), that I cannot be mean, even when I try! I just had an inspirational thought; could this be a source of why she does not respect me?! I am not self-centered and mean spirited, spiteful, like her dad?! Does this mean anything to anyone? How do I process this info?
Thanks in adavance for your feedback!
Peace,
HH<p>[ May 06, 2002: Message edited by: Hurrian Hoosier ]</p>

HH first of all let me say that you shouldn't change the basic person that you are for anyone or any reason.<p>A lot of younger women look for the bad boy type but most often they don't marry that kind. As women grow older, they realize that stability, kindness and other such qualities are what makes a good man. But there are some women who can't progress past the stage where they "need" the excitement a bad boy brings along.<p>Maybe your W is right and maybe she isn't good enough for you but only you and she can decide that.

Hurrian Hoosier:<p>She said she always felt that she was not Good enough for me - <p>TR- Sounds like she's not happy within herself..
when you don't feel your 'good' enough for someone
else, it's more of a sign you don't have a high self-image..because you feel worthless..nothing you can do can ever meet their expectations..and love feels conditional..<p>from reading your post her dad placed conditions on his love, and so this is what she learned..from him about how men and marriage should be..and how she deserves to be treated..and to believe anything else..would require her to face the truth about her dad..that he wasn't perfect..and that
he didn't love her the way a father should love his children..and would also require her to face her own mistakes and beliefs about herself..and if I don't believe this then what am I to believe??<p>What is the truth?? If what I feel inside is wrong..I've been living a lie my entire life..
how do I face that?? What else is there to believe?? it's all I've ever known to believe about myself..it's what my parents taught me..<p>
I've been through that internal struggle myself..
and I've said those same words..and when I read them..it was like a 2x4 of my past being revisited..(especially from my EA) he treated me w/ respect..he wasn't like any of the men I'd dated..and definately wasn't like my husband..
Our relationship wasn't sexual..it was emotional..
he had respect for me as a person..didn't ask for sex..and when "I" asked why..(because to me that was normal, it's what all men wanted) he basically said..if he needs sex he has two hands to take care of that and that a relationship is more
than sex..and if you don't have a friendship first
the sex is empty..<p>boy did a light bulb go off in my head..thats something I'd NEVER HEARD!!! But, always wanted to believe was possible..to me that is the cinderella, snow white type of love..the happiliy ever after kind..the love built on mutual respect and friendship..but I never had that..so I didn't think it was possible..but I wanted that..I knew I was married..and couldn't have that w/ this man..
and ended the friendship..because I wanted that in my marriage..so I tried to get it..sad thing is..he couldn't give that..he's never learned how
to give of himself..his time, his friendship..
he doesn't have many friends at all and those he has aren't very deep..they are all surface relationships..1 demensional if you will..he doesn't invite others into his life..to really get to know him as a person..<p>Me on the other hand..I tried to give more of myself..and found all but the body portion of me
rejected..he didn't want he rest of me..just my body..(much like a slave- they were only wanted for what they could do physically for their masters, if they couldn't work then they were tossed aside, sold to someone else..beaten down to submission) the OM didn't want the body..he wanted the rest..he wanted the part that made me who I am as a person..the part I'd always tried to give but nobody wanted..not even my dad..so I believed
that part of me wasn't worthy of love..<p>OM showed me..that part of me was worthy of being loved..and it helped me in my relationship w/ Christ..because I began to realize..thats the part that God really loves..the body is just the shell
that holds the rest--the best part of who I am as a person..and my internal self-image began to change..I hated my body..because it's all anyone else thought was worth any value..and I resented that..<p>and from reading your post..it sounds like your
wife doesn't feel her internal self has value..
her soul if you would..is not worthy of being loved..and yes, partly because of what she learned as a child..from her parents..but..she can learn
that she has value as a person..for more than just
what she can physically do with her body..and that
requires a lot of self reflection..something you
can't force her to do..<p>When you compliment her, do you only compliment her on her looks?? Or do you compliment her on other things that make her who she is? how she responds to those compliments can be very telling..if she down plays them..it's typically a
self-image issue..so if you can..yes, compliment her looks..but also compliment her in things she does..like how she can make you laugh..think about
the things that make her her..and compliment those
traits..<p>But, no, don't change yourself..unless it's something that will compliment you..but don't change for the worse..to be abusive..

Here's my 2 cents. <p>I find myself attracted to some "bad-boy" types myself, but I'm also attracted to "good-boys" too. I think it's the CONFIDENCE that I am attracted to. A man that is confident in himself, his decisions... he's not needy or making his every little decision based on someone else's opinion. A man that is independent and acts like he's comfortable with himself and his life. <p>Perhaps this is what your wife finds attractive? Maybe you can focus on strenthening some of those things, instead of being domineering and disrespectful. It's possible to be a strong, decisive, "manly", leader... without being disrespectful or domineering.<p>what do ya think?

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by TinyDancer:
<strong>HH first of all let me say that you shouldn't change the basic person that you are for anyone or any reason. <hr></blockquote>
I agree - I was being fascius & having a little pity party -- into my illness -- much better today!<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> But there are some women who can't progress past the stage where they "need" the excitement a bad boy brings along. <hr></blockquote><p>Again, I was being drug down by my own misery -- she had confessed that she did not know why she did these things exactly, but that is was "exciting!" [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] So I am sure this "Bad Boy"
thing you described was a part of this excitement that she felt! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img]
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Maybe your W is right and maybe she isn't good enough for you but only you and she can decide that.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Good point, I needed to be reminded of that as an alternative, otherwise, I believe she continues to take me for granted!<p>Thanks for your support Tiny <p>ThornedRose
Thanks so much for your heartfelt insights here, they I believe are right on!
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>TR- Sounds like she's not happy within herself..
when you don't feel your 'good' enough for someone
else, it's more of a sign you don't have a high self-image..because you feel worthless..nothing you can do can ever meet their expectations..and love feels conditional..<p>from reading your post her dad placed conditions on his love, and so this is what she learned..from him about how men and marriage should be..and how she deserves to be treated..and to believe anything else..would require her to face the truth about her dad..that he wasn't perfect..and that
he didn't love her the way a father should love his children <hr></blockquote>
So very true & I know that her dad has been a big topic in my DW's counseling -- I know that he learned from his parents & they from thiers & that these issues are many times "family" issues and are passed on from one generation to another. For our children's benefit, I would like to be sure we break this chain so to speak!
The self esteem thing is another contributing factor to SA issue & of course eating disorders & shopping compulsions -- BTW, all of my DW's siblings, two F cousins, raised by her parents have varying degrees of these same issues! I have frankly lost sight of this self esteem issue in that she seems quite assured and decisive with her action. I have mentioned this self esteem to my best friend & he finds it difficult to relate to becasue of the way she carries herself when out in public - Ms. Congeniality, Hugs with gretting & good byes & quite the conversationalist, ECT. -- Intellectually, I understand these can be "acts" so to speak. In fact, her first Counselor in IN was concerned when she spoke of her "acting" to please others ... again, signs of an illness -- SA, ED ect.
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
When you compliment her, do you only compliment her on her looks?? Or do you compliment her on other things that make her who she is? how she responds to those compliments can be very telling..if she down plays them..it's typically a
self-image issue..so if you can..yes, compliment her looks..but also compliment her in things she does..like how she can make you laugh..think about
the things that make her her..and compliment those
traits..
<hr></blockquote>
Excellent points! I could use help with better compliments - she has always rejected my compliments and I lack some confidence in best methods here. I wrote a detailed letter to her last summer in which I outlined several specific things she did & the way she is that I loved about her. She does not reciprocate, so a part of me says that I am a real wimp & set up enabling things when I am the only one expressing love & handing out compliments? Others recommend 180 degree, I definitely feel conflicted here. [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img]
Someone else mentioned that if I continue to do things that annoy or irritate her, it is like a controlling behavior -- Compliments, ILY's [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img]
ThornedRose, I hope & pray that your daughter finds some peace and the love she deserves from her father!!
I lose sight of who said what & I know you have replied to me before, but am I correct that it was you that recommended the book, "The Wounded Heart" -- I got that last week & that may in fact also explain some of my DW issues -- thanks!<p>Faith1,
I think what you said makes perfect sense! Thanks for the reminder -- I have made a come back of sorts in the self confidence area, but still need to progress.
****
I believe that my DW has some serious issues & I have unknowingly developed a habit of becoming a co-dependent, always looking for ways in which I can show attention to my DW & I have given up my identity in some cases to try & please her - she has in a sense, asked for & an acted as if she should always be the center of attention & I have complied with that & made her the center of my world so to speak or at least to some degree. We definitely need some balance here!
When I ask for her to give me some attention, to think about my needs, this I believe creates tension in her & it forces her to play a role that she is totally unfamiliar with and it forces her to cope in ways that are uncomfortable for her -- perhaps a reason for some of the flare ups she has on occasion
Thanks to all!
HH<p>[ May 07, 2002: Message edited by: Hurrian Hoosier ]</p>

HH,
You're getting some good, serious advice, and then, there's me...<p>Have you ever watched the BBC/PBS comedy "Waiting for God?"<p>The "good son" "good H" Jeffrey, with a cheating, drug doing wife, developes a split personality and turns into Fat Boy--a black leather wearing, motorcycle slob...that is immensely attractive to his wife. On TV it's kind of funny and somehow your post reminded me of it.<p>There's no reason to change your basic "goodness". But, just as some of us wives take to different clothing, or hairstyles, nobody says you can't play a little with your appearance. If nothing else, she'll wonder why you're dressing differently.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Lor (Lor):
<strong>HH,<p>There's no reason to change your basic "goodness". But, just as some of us wives take to different clothing, or hairstyles, nobody says you can't play a little with your appearance. If nothing else, she'll wonder why you're dressing differently.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Lor,
Thanks for your interest! I have not seen the TV, but I apprecite some humor here!
It is in the eye of the beholder, huh.
Even though my opinon means very little when it ocmes to my DW's sexy dress, she normally does not hestitate to have big influence on my way of dress & looks thing -- she is quick to point out when I pick up a few pounds & she has directed me to throw some color in my hair & she prefers the blue jean, hunk of a man. Does this sound like the dutiful H I described in last point of my last post? [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]
I am trying to get a two way traffic pattern goin here, as opposed to what I perceieve many times as a one way street, not that I don't have things to work -- it is never, just one way of course!
Thanks again!
HH
[b]PS - BTW, she suggested dark Jockey briefs, bikini underwear for me, instead of the white. She got me three pair a month ago or so. I came home last week with three new pair and I think it did thrwo her back a bit! A couple days later she causually mentioned that I have one week & an day of the colored undies -- "You don't need anymore now," she said. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] She must be worried my collection may come close to matching her thong & Vict. Sec. push up, padded, linen, bra collection! [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] <p>[ May 07, 2002: Message edited by: Hurrian Hoosier ]</p>

I forgot-- more on my colored bikini undies -- my DW asked (in a serious tone), how I felt wearing the new undies (even though I had same kind for a while). I replied in a humorise, sarcastic tone that they made me feel sexy all over, then I added that one pair was a little tight & was undcomfortable, but that I'll get used to it! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]
Do you suppose she actually felt it enhanced how I felt about myself?
Sorry, as for me, the kind of underwear I wear did not have any effect on my my self imagine, it did not make me feel better about myself! Maybe it only effects females this way ?? [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] Maybe it's just me?? [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]

You got me started, She has coached me on my hairstyle as well! She likes the short, greased up look. My best friend was kindly kidding me that I should now be called "Spike" -- you see our friends are not into this MLC thing -- Someday my DW may see that she can no longer be a teenager and I am not going to be 30 again!
I aksed her not long ago what she would think if I started wearing baggy pants & a baseball cap turned backwards -- she said, "I never said I liked you that way!" DAAH I don't think she got my point.
My friend said that someday my DW will see how her way of dress can be silly looking for a person her age -- I mean even if she does have the body, is she trying to be a movie star here or what -- I know she has a desperate need to be noticed, but I don't think she has a clue that not everyone thinks it is as "cute" as she thinks.
I'm not going to argue the point with her anymore - she knows how I feel. I don't have to be completely sucked into her game!
Just hangin in here!
HH

Yikes, I didn't intend to push a thorn into a nerve!<p>It kind of reminds me how my H said I dressed kinda frumpy--I was a grade school teacher, then a daycare provider, now a used bookstore owner, I mean, frumpy/comfortable/eccentric is in the job descriptions. Then, when the bad times came, I lost wieght, became blonde, tan, buff, wore short skirts, tighter tops...made it interesting when I bent over the book stacks. H said "Lor, you've dressing kind of provactively..." in a not so approving tone [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] . <p>Now it's no longer an issue. All he really wanted was for me to dress differently--for him--when we went out. Attractive spouse is an EN for him, I keep it in mind.

I have a theory about the good boy vs. bad boy issue. I’m not sure it applies here, except perhaps where your confidence is concerned, as mentioned above. I agree that bad boys often project a kind of confidence that is attractive, and lack of confidence is never attractive. (However, sometimes women mistake lack of confidence for some other quality that they are attracted to, or don’t have the skills to identify the lack of confidence.) But in addition to confidence, bad boys are often very charming. Not all of them, but a certain segment of the population. They seduce women into shady romantic relationships, and they seduce others into other shady relationships: business, friendships, etc. They’ve developed charm and possibly good looks, but not other attractive qualities like strong ethics or hard work. But the charm will disguise those failings in the beginning. What bothers me, however, is many “good boys” complain about women’s attraction to “bad boys” without examining the GOOD qualities those bad boys possess: confidence and charm. Just being nice, smart, considerate, etc., isn’t enough. A woman likes to be charmed. And boy, being charmed by a nice man she can trust over the long haul – it almost sounds like too much to ask at times. But should it be?<p>This is more my general ranting on this subject than my opinion about your personal situation. If you are already Prince Charming, ignore me completely.

HH,<p>Yes, I'd recommended that book [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] I'm glad you bought it..hope it helps..read the section on styles of relating..<p>And I want to thank you for your words to my daughter..she hasn't read the post yet..but she is encouraged by what others have said thus far..
I know how difficult it was for her to express herself..and share her feelings..this is something
I have been trying to teach her over the years of my own healing..I try to encourage her to talk to her father about how she feels also..but I also know how hard headed he is..and how he ignored my feelings for years..even though I expressed them as openly as I do here..he still didn't get it..<p>I think a lot of that is his FOO issues..his dad was an alcoholic..and his mom was an enabler..and the kids never talk about the elephant in the middle of the room..even now he has a difficult time admitting his father was a drunk..because if
he admitted that..he would have to admit he is too..which would require him to face reality..and
well..according to him..he doesn't drink as much as his father did..because he hasn't lost a job over it..yes, he's lost his wife because of it..
and is losing his children because of it..but hey
were not his livelyhood..we don't provide that paycheck..that supports his addiction..his mother stayed because she didn't have the same resources we do now..<p>But this wasn't about me..I just wanted to thank you..for what you said..<p>Now..as I read your post about your wife..and the clothes and how she's dressing I had to laugh..
It reminded me of my sisters complaints about my mother when my dad left..how she was dressing like teenager (my mom was about my age)and also because my daughter has said something similiar to me recently..in how I dress young..I don't think I do..but she thinks I do..so I asked her what she means?? She said..well you wear short shorts..I have two pair of short shorts..and I wear those when we go to the beach or lake, or around the house..not to the grocery store or shopping..UGH!! and my dresses are too short..I bought what was in style that wasn't something I see the older women at my church wearing..I asked her if she'd prefer I wear dresses like my sister?? (they go down to her ankles, and I used to wear those) she said No..so I asked her what she thinks a 38 year old should wear..she said..she doesn't know..but they shouldn't be to attract men..okay..so I see me in the "frumpy"..Lor was talking about..hmmm..NOT!!!
[img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>But, as for your looks..hmmm...lets see..can you go out and buy the black leather outfit spike your hair up like she likes it..and get youself a g-string..start making little changes in your appearance that she'll notice..just as she's done, and see how she reacts to it..not that clothes make you who you are..but apparently she thinks they do..<p>try a little experiment..get in the mindset that your looking for something to feel attractive in..you want to attract a particular type of woman..and go shopping..and see if you pick out
a different style of clothes for yourself..you don't have to buy them...just see if they are different than what you would typically buy yourself..<p>I know if I go shopping w/ the mindset that I want to find something for a certain function or to set a certain mood..it's not my typical blue jeans and t-shirt..or shorts and pull over tee..or frumpy
sweat pants..LOL

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Lor (Lor):
[QB]Yikes, I didn't intend to push a thorn into a nerve! <hr></blockquote> <p>WHAT A WORD PICTURE! I'M OK!!

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Then, when the bad times came, I lost wieght, became blonde, tan, buff, wore short skirts, tighter tops...made it interesting when I bent over the book stacks. <hr></blockquote> [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] YOU ARE TEMPTING ME TO DITCH MY GOOD BOY IMAGE HERE! [img]images/icons/blush.gif" border="0[/img] --
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> H said "Lor, you've dressing kind
of provactively..." in a not so approving tone [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] . <hr></blockquote> <p>And you complied? Don't you feel threatened that you are giving up your rights or being controled?
Just kidding! I can tell that you are a loving & caring S who has some respect for their S's wishes & feelings -- I like that in a person -- keep up the good work! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] Now my DW argues that her way of dress or her look is not provocative, just fashion! But I'm not going there - whatever!<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> But in addition to confidence, bad boys are often very charming. Not all of them, but a certain segment of the population. They seduce women into shady romantic relationships, and they seduce others into other shady relationships: business, friendships, etc. They’ve developed charm and possibly good looks, but not other attractive qualities like strong ethics or hard work. But the charm will disguise those failings in the beginning. What bothers me, however, is many “good boys” complain about women’s attraction to “bad boys” without examining the GOOD qualities those bad boys possess: confidence and charm. Just being nice, smart, considerate, etc., isn’t enough. A woman likes to be charmed. And boy, being charmed by a nice man she can trust over the long haul – it almost sounds like too much to ask at times. But should it be?<hr></blockquote>
Curious53,
Thanks -- more good points -- from my perspective, another point is that a women would not naturally be attracted to the weak, wimpy type. They would want the strong, young & daring type -- she was 48 & these guys were 32 & 36, so they kind of fit that mold --outdoorsey, rugged type. She shared other aspects & our lovemaking took on another element to where she would & still does at times use really fawl language, like swears at me, "you mother _____ !" or "you son of _ ___!" Talk about romantic! This really sends me to the moon! [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] Could be purely coincidential, but I don't think so! Just Lust! This is more than I care to cover here as it starting to bring back negative triggers, so I'll pass on this for now. <p>But at any rate, it has been a wake up call of sorts. And I hope I don't project an image of me being Mr. Prude here -- I understand the boy meets girl game & I understand Lust. <p>I just have to be relaisitic here -- I'm 52 & NOT 32!
Peace to all!
HH<p>[ May 07, 2002: Message edited by: Hurrian Hoosier ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by ThornedRose:
[QB]HH,<p>Yes, I'd recommended that book [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] I'm glad you bought it..hope it helps..read the section on styles of relating.. <hr></blockquote>
Thanks again!<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>And I want to thank you for your words to my daughter..she hasn't read the post yet..but she is encouraged by what others have said thus far..
I know how difficult it was for her to express herself..and share her feelings..<hr></blockquote><p>I was very impressed with her skills to communicate! I was a bit nervous, cause I know how important an issue this is and how fragile she could be! <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> I think a lot of that is his FOO issues..his dad was an alcoholic..and his mom was an enabler..and the kids never talk about the elephant in the middle of the room..even now he has a difficult time admitting his father was a drunk..because if
he admitted that..he would have to admit he is too..which would require him to face reality..and
well..according to him..he doesn't drink as much as his father did..because he hasn't lost a job over it..yes, he's lost his wife because of it..
and is losing his children because of it..but hey
were not his livelyhood..we don't provide that paycheck..that supports his addiction..his mother stayed because she didn't have the same resources we do now..<hr></blockquote><p>Before knowing this, by reading your D's story I was very much reminded of my DW's parent's and how her dad is & how her mom is so unhappy with over 50 years of verbal & emotional abuse! She has always been so submissive, but in recent years stood up for herself more. They have not slept in the same bedroom for I would guess close to 20 years now!
It actually makes my blood boil a bit to think about it! He is so self-centered & is the traditioanl male chavists - gives no credit to her & demands all the attention! In the 31 years + that I have known them, I do not recall him ever getting her a birthday card & for Chritmas he rarely gets her anything, unless it is something like a vacum sweeper or a sofa -- nothing personal!
What upsets me the most about him is his general attitude towards women! He had three daughters & raised two neices and he speaks of women with very little, if any respect!! Double UGH!!
The family name is a big deal to him, My DW'S SIS had a son out of wedlock and she got married to a guy four or five years later (not father), and I know that my DW's dad was concerned they may change his grandson's name away from the family name. This grandson is more like a son to my DW's dad and the amount of money he has spent on THIS PARTICULAR GRANDSON WOULD BE AROUND $300 TO $1 COMPARED TO THE OTHER GRANDCHILDREN. <p>Another example I will always remember about his basic focus on self was one time when he was visiting, our Daughter's name was in the paper for something -- He was so proud, he showed someone & said, see look this is my grandaughter, Megan ______ (his last name) -- he did not even relaize what he said. Maybe this means nothing, but it seemed to me strange -- such a pride for "his family," that he could not recognise another name, like it would too humbling or something -- so yes, I can relate to how your D feels and I sure hope that she can work through it quickly!<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> and also because my daughter has said something similiar to me recently..in how I dress young..I don't think I do..but she thinks I do..so I asked her what she means?? She said..well you wear short shorts..I have two pair of short shorts..and I wear those when we go to the beach or lake, or around the house..not to the grocery store or shopping..UGH!! and my dresses are too short..I bought what was in style that wasn't something I see the older women at my church wearing..I asked her if she'd prefer I wear dresses like my sister?? (they go down to her ankles, and I used to wear those) she said No..so I asked her what she thinks a 38 year old should wear..she said..she doesn't know..but they shouldn't be to attract men..okay..so I see me in the "frumpy"..Lor was talking about..hmmm..NOT!!!
[img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <hr></blockquote>
When I think of my DW's way of dress and your D's comments, I am reminded of saying - you can't fool kids & dogs! I call on people in their homes on occassion I have to inpress the dogs as well! It sounds like you might be attracting some attention [img]images/icons/blush.gif" border="0[/img] and your D is not sure how to handle it! Like she is trying to protect you? Interesting & COMPLIMENTARY TO YOU BTW!<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>But, as for your looks..hmmm...lets see..can you go out and buy the black leather outfit spike your hair up like she likes it..<hr></blockquote> [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

This is particularily interesting, in that a few weeks ago I was home after her work when she did not expect me home & she came in wearig her tight leather pants and I made a comment that she had the "hot look" today. She got defensive (of course, it was a disrespectful judgemental comment!), but she argued that is was very appropiate & not provacative! [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] The mindset thing is a good idea, although I do carry some xtra around the waist and can not get away with tight tops - otherwise, I am open for suggestions -- [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img]
Peace,
HH<p>[ May 07, 2002: Message edited by: Hurrian Hoosier ]</p>

Hurrian Hoosier:


This is particularily interesting, in that a few weeks ago I was home after her work when she did not expect me home & she came in wearig her tight leather pants and I made a comment that she had the "hot look" today. She got defensive (of course, it was a disrespectful judgemental comment!), but she argued that is was very appropiate & not provacative! [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] <p>TR- Appropriate for where?? <p>And as far as my D, by reading her post..and seeing how these same type of things affect your
wife..you can see my concern..I don't want her to have those self-image issues..I don't want her looking for love in all the wrong faces..or places
and I pray for my kids about that..and for who
they will one day marry..I don't know who they will be, but God does..so I pray for them, and that God will prepare them to be the kind of spouse my children need..one that will treat them with love and respect..attributes I am trying so hard to build in my children..<p>The mindset thing is a good idea, although I do carry some xtra around the waist and can not get away with tight tops - otherwise, I am open for suggestions -- [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] <p>You don't need a tight top.. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] <p>What type of clothes do you find comfortable??
I know some men feel just as comfortable in jeans
as they do a pair of dress slacks..<p>How do you dress?? I mean if you were to go out
alone and shop what would you pick out? not what would your wife dress you in..and not what would you wear for work..but just to go out casually in..<p>Even men who carry xtra in the waistline can still look attractive..and if your uncomfortable with the waistline..then make some changes in your diet..and work on that..you don't have to become obsessed w/ it..but you can get out and walk around the block and do some light exercises to
help..<p>Just try that experiment..get in the mindset..that
you want something that will make you look attractive..and don't be afraid to ask the sales women for assistance..<p>I realize most men don't shop based on skin tones
and eye colors, and what will make them look their best..but most women do..so ask..if something makes you look pale..or washes your skin tone out.
I know some shades of tan make me look sick..so I avoid them like the plague..so look at your skin tone..pastle colors often look good on darker complextions..and some darker prints look good on lighter complextions..so on that shopping trip..think of that also... [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

Hurrian Hoosier~
Sorry I haven't been around for a while. Life is busy and somewhat crazy at times here. I've meant to reply to you ever since I read one of your threads several days ago about your W's preference for 'rough' sex.<p>I thought a lot about what I'd say to you in a reply, but never found the time to post it. Now with this thread I had to make time to give you my opinion--for whatever it's worth......<p>I'm very concerned that you are trying so hard to be what you think she wants in a man, that you could lose who you REALLY ARE. From what I get from your posts, you're a really nice, loving, kind, gentle man. Why would you want to change who you are? I know clothes and attitudes (like the 'bad boy' thing) aren't the central issue of one's personality, but come on....... When you start changing things about yourself for someone else it can be a serious thing.<p>I've been thinking about us in our 30+ year marriages. Why are we putting up with the behavior from our Ss that we are? I'm concerned it's just fear.....pure fear of the unknown. Someone much better for us could be just around the corner!<p>What do you think?<p>~amazingrace

ThornedRose:
Thanks for hangin out with me here!
I have a great amount of empathy for you with your D! I have confidence that with your prayers and with your influence she will be just fine!
Although my DW has been a strong force in our immediate family & in her way demanded a lot of the attention, I can say that our children have a basic nature and sense for fairness for others; if you will excuse the persaonl reference, a lot more like me.
One thing our family crises brought to the surface was how unfair and unhealthy their mom was in her treatment towards me ... & herself actually(THIS PART HAS BECOME MORE CLEAR TO ME AT LEAST!). I also feel certain that they can see a big source of her problem stems from her family. This has caused me to be so grateful for my parents influence & ways! Your children will one day be equally thankful FOR YOUR INFLUENCE IN THEIR LIVES!!
Regarding the dress thing -- I prefer kackies & golf shirts. I don't mind the blue jeans & t-shirt thing, it's just not my first choice -- I like the more loose fit -- Guess what, I've been wearing that look more this past couple weeks!<p>Back to your D. I know that we have to be careful in introducing religious or spiritual things to our children because they can have a sometimes, natural inclination to reject a parent's advice, but I thought of a bibloe verse that I thought was appropriate -- for her & US!
INTRO:
God is present in every aspect of our lives. He knows our every thought. He knows our joy & he knows our pain. He knows our needs. He knows us & he loves us for who we are!
Ps 139:1-18
1 O LORD, you have searched me and you know me.
2 You know when I sit and when I rise; you perceive my thoughts from afar.
3 You discern my going out and my lying down; you are familiar with all my ways.
4 Before a word is on my tongue you know it completely, O LORD.
5 You hem me in-- behind and before; you have laid your hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me, too lofty for me to attain.
7 Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence?
8 If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there.
9 If I rise on the wings of the dawn, if I settle on the far side of the sea,
10 even there your hand will guide me, your right hand will hold me fast.
11 If I say, "Surely the darkness will hide me and the light become night around me,"
12 even the darkness will not be dark to you; the night will shine like the day, for darkness is as light to you.
13 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.
14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well.
15 My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,
16 your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.
17 How precious to me are your thoughts, O God! How vast is the sum of them!
18 Were I to count them, they would outnumber the grains of sand. When I awake, I am still with you.
(NIV)
THORNEDROSE - YOU ARE A HERO! KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK!<p>AMAzINGGRACE!
So good of you to check in!! So good to hear from you! I have been wondering about you! I was about to send a message out for your reply! I hope you are hanin in!
Please do not worry, I am not going to attempt a personality make over -- I may be hanging on to Sanity by a thread at times, but I do know better!
I follow this co-dependent pattern & over analysize & seek lots of validation -- I was actually being sarcastic with the bad boy thing.
I do need to be more asertive at times & not be so needy, but I don't have try to be someone else!
I know that the fear of the unkown is a part of what enters my mind. Believe me, the inkling or urges to pack it in are there and they are stronger at some times -- This is definatley a tight rope we are walking!
Have you ever explored Alanon? I am active in a similar group for family memembers of SEXaholics, S-anon. It has helped me a lot.
If you are interested in more info, give me an email: bhurrican@yahoo.com
Give me an update!
Hope you are having a good day -- HUGS!
HH<p>[ May 08, 2002: Message edited by: Hurrian Hoosier ]</p>

Hurrian Hoosier~
I didn't have time to finish my post last night. Just as I was nearing the end, WH came home and needed attention, as usual.<p>I've been doing a lot of soul-searching lately. I need to know if I'm willing to go back to the way things were BEFORE EA began and I honestly have to say I don't think I am. <p>I have learned to live with the alcoholism. Yes, I've been to Alanon. While my H was in a resident treatment program at a local hospital 20 years ago we did lots of family counseling and education programs. It included my first association with Alanon. I have returned a few times over the years, but really find that focusing on all the negative behavior, etc., just does not help me in the way I need. (That seemed to be the focus of the local group I attended anyway.)<p>I have learned to go forward regardless of what WH does, not make excuses for him, try in every way to have a semblence of normality of life no matter what the alcohol dictates. I have self-esteem and know that nothing I do contributes or is to 'blame' for the drinking. <p>That central issue is the main thing I got from the family counseling during WH's treatment: The alcoholic will always try to blame their drinking/behavior on others--usually the spouse. But if I have that much power--to MAKE HIM DRINK--then I would also have the power to MAKE HIM STOP! Since I do not have the power to make him stop drinking, then I must not have the power to make him drink. That simple statement from the counselor changed me. Freed me to shake loose from the guilt and manipulative behavior WH tried to use to control me. I've been different ever since.<p>Back to the main issue though--I don't think WH will be willing to take the steps necessary for us to recover and make our M better. I've read the wonderful stories on MB about how fantastic M have become after doing the Harley recommended steps. Maybe it's because I've grown so weary in this battle, but my hope is fading fast. I see my life stretching out before me as it's been--focusing on meeting ENs of H, but mine going pretty much unmet. I too am changing some of who I am in order to better meet EN of WH. I now go out to bars with him, even though I do not drink. So here I am, drinking Sprite and smiling, being so friendly with WH's coworkers--who know he is involved with OW--but they are friendly to me. But this is not ME. I do not enjoy my time there, except that I am with WH. It feels wrong to try to like it. WH is very happy I'm going with him. But knowing this kind of socialization might be expected of me for long term is very depressing too. Don't get me wrong. I like to socialize and be with people. It's just it being so entwined with the drinking that makes me so sad.....<p>I think what keeps me here, is what I said--fear of the unknown. Not knowing how hard it will be to loose myself of WH. Not knowing what life will be like without him. Not knowing if I even want to find someone else. Not knowning...... <p>Then I see all these people with wonderful, caring spouses. It's not out of the question that I could find someone like that. I'm a kind, considerate, loving person. I go out of my way to do more than my part in the M. I have my own business and pay most of the bills. I'm independent and feel confident about myself (most of the time). <p>Sorry to toot my own horn here, but today I need to hear that I'm not totally stupid staying here Plan A-ing. WH has now decided that EA is just 'friendship' again and that since he has no desire to have sex with her, that he's doing nothing wrong. He says he is going to end it with her ONLY because I have such a problem with it. But that does nothing to reassure me that we will do anything to recover. Why work on recovery when he's done nothing wrong? And it remains to be seen if he even will do anything to end it. I think he's just waiting for her to end it. You know, taking the easy way out. Nothing hard or painful on his part....<p>I think this weekend I plan to tell OW's H what I know and give him a copy of 'the note.' At least his M needs to be in as much a mess as mine! According to WH, OW's H knows a little something is up--OW tried to call my WH at the store while on her 30th anniversary trip last weekend and her H found out and asked why she'd call WH!<p>If I've rambled, sorry, I'm not walking the tight rope too well today!<p>amazingrace

amazingrace:<p>I've never posted to you, but reading your post here I get the gist of your struggles..<p>Although, you stayed much longer in your marriage
than I did..I wouldn't have survived emotionally
and I know that. When I started moving forward
in my life and doing things without my h it caused more problems, and he got more verbally abusive..
He wanted things to stay the way they were and I couldn't continue in that..not just for me but for my children..<p>I felt that had I stayed I would be selling my soul, and well, my soul has already been purchased
through the shed blood of Christ..and as the Bible
says, we can not serve two masters..and it sounds
to me like that is what you are doing by going out
with your husband to the bars, like you are selling your soul to make him happy at the cost of
your own happiness..<p>I know stepping out to the fear of the unknown is
scary, and you wonder how will I make it?? I had those same fears myself..but took the leap of faith..you are in a better situation than I was though, because you have a job, I was a stay home
home mom, and hadn't worked for years..<p>two of my best friends were also in your position both worked both paid all of the bills, and basically supported their families with little help from their alcoholic spouses..and both came to the same conclusion..If I am already supporting
my family with no real help from this man..how much worse could it be without him here?? Or how much more peace would I have in my life if I didn't have this to contend with as well? <p>And these men would either learn to be responsible
or lose everything..and hit rock bottom and change
well, one of them ran home to his parents and they took him in for awhile, he's now living with someone else, and she's enabling him..the other lost everything, his home, his car, his furniture
everything..and from what I have heard he may lose his job as well..and is talking about running home
to his mommy and daddy..<p>these women on the other hand..have been promoted at work, they still struggle financially, but they
are both happier now than I have seen them in years, one is dating a wonderful man, who loves her dearly, and treats her like a queen..<p>The other is still gun shy about dating, but she's been forming friendships with men and making those baby steps back into the dating realm..and last time I talked to her she said she's met a guy who is a single dad has custody of his son, and from their talks they have many things in common..but she doesn't want to rush things..so she's taking the friendship thing slowly.<p>I don't want to say divorce your husband, because I know that is a last resort, but please don't sell your soul to make him happy at the cost of yourself..<p>HH, <p>That is actually one of my favorite verses..one that helped me look at myself in a new light through my own healing..in knowing "I am fearfully
and wonderfully made" and not the ugly person I was always told I was growing up and believed to be true because of it..<p>And I do teach my children about God and to have
a relationship with Him..and they have all accepted Christ as their savior..and they see me stepping out in faith and hear me pray and it encourages them to do the same [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by amazingrace:
<strong><p>
I have learned to go forward regardless of what WH does, not make excuses for him, try in every way to have a semblence of normality of life no matter what the alcohol dictates. I have self-esteem and know that nothing I do contributes or is to 'blame' for the drinking. <p>That central issue is the main thing I got from the family counseling during WH's treatment: The alcoholic will always try to blame their drinking/behavior on others--usually the spouse. But if I have that much power--to MAKE HIM DRINK--then I would also have the power to MAKE HIM STOP! Since I do not have the power to make him stop drinking, then I must not have the power to make him drink. That simple statement from the counselor changed me. Freed me to shake loose from the guilt and manipulative behavior WH tried to use to control me. I've been different ever since.<p>amazingrace</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Amazing, I thought you might have been & although I have only been exposed to these concepts for a few months, I have learned the same kind of thing about me & my DW - she has compulsion, obsessions and/or addiction & that I have to detach from those --her in a sense --
Like we had mentioned before, It seems that your H has found a new addiction to try & fill that void that he feels!
I want to become a stronger person. I have a fear that if I chuck my DW, with my current codependency tendencies I will turn around I pick another.
We must be strong and focus on ourselves!<p>I am in favor of you contacting the OW's H. As long as you do it in a non-emotional, non- vindictive posture -- you are not doing it for revenge, but because it is the right thing to do. If you were in his shoes, you would want to know!
I don't want to create undo anxiety or alarm, but what makes you so sure it has not turned into PA?<p>I know as a guy and as a sometimes prudish one at that of late, these thoughts of SE* pop into the brain & to have someone who has any physical attractiveness professing attention & desire - this would be extremely difficult to resist temptation - Doesn't Dobson speak about this just from a practical humanisitic point of view?
Keep me updated! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]
HUGS
HH