llama,
Do you think this frustration on his part could be a good thing?
My H was very critical and he vasilated between love and hate when he started having moments of fog lifting.
Keep being strong the time without contact will clear your head.
L

newest update -<p>the OW is in town and went to his softball game last night. her hubby (i believe) is trying to track her down and have received calls from her city pretending to be the cable co. I confirmed with cable co that the call was bogus and called the police and fbi.<p>his mother met her and said she's not that attractive but very pleasant (HELLO? Of course she's going to be pleasant!!!!)<p>she's staying with him at his apartment. he told his mom that he's going to sleep on the floor - WHATEVER!!!!!<p>the more i think about all of this, the more frustrated I'm getting and the more I keep asking myself "is this all really worth it?" I don't deserve any of this. UGH!!!!!<p>Llama

llama,
Maybe you should "quit" working on this for a while, let the affair run its course while you are becoming stronger and more focused.
Sorry I dont have any one liners to make you laugh.
night
L

llama,
Let me start off by saying I am sorry for not seeing your request for me all this time. I know what you and your H are going through right now. What I can offer is some insight into what your H might be going threw. <p>Right now he is lost in the fog (I can hear you say “WELL DUH” from here). He is confused about the future, about what he wants out of life. From everything you have posted (all his contact with you and so on) it seems he wants this to work itself out and fast! He needs to learn that it will work out, just not as fast as he would like and not by itself. He needs to learn that it will work out if he makes it work out. Let him know you are willing to do what ever it takes to do so.<p>My wife and I have been in recovery for a long time now and it’s going great. When I say great I mean we have very good days and very bad days. We work very hard at it. It’s not going to clear up over night and he needs to learn that for himself. You can’t make him learn it but you can have some influence. Plan B you a$$ off! The other woman will LB$ and if you don’t your going to win.<p>It sucks; I can only imagine how much for a BS. You should look into anti-depressants they will help you threw this difficult time of your life. They don’t hinder your train of thought only make you look at things in a logical manor. I was against taking them but was convinced when a close friend of mine told me he had been taking them for years. I never even noticed. <p>Your husband needs time without contact from you. He needs to realize that he does love you and what he did is wrong for himself. Don’t LB$, that will only enable him to justify the A in his mind. There is no excuse for what he has done no matter what you did in the past. Always remember he should of done other things to fix his relationship with you rather then looking to other to meet his EN. Remember that’s what he is trying to do justify his actions. He knows what he is doing is wrong why do you think he needs his parent’s approval. That has to do with his past and his upbringing.<p>My heart goes out to you and your H. I know he is hurting as well. I have been there. I remember the exact time I came out of the fog. It was hard, fast and hit me like a speeding freight train. I still feel the pain (the guilt tears me apart at times) of my actions, but I have a marriage that’s better then ever before. I hope this gives you some hope. I promise I will look for your posts everyday and keep checking up on you. Feel free to ask me anything. I mean anything. My W can also help because she is living through it from your end.

Bump so llama sees this

bump

Thanks so much for your response - <p>Update as of today:<p>First time we've talked in a week. We talked on the phone for a few. Kind of ironic he called while I was on the other line with our priest - LOL!<p>He asked me who we could see as a counselor IF we decided to go. I said I wasn't sure, I could look into it, but that our priest said he would be there for either or both of us, etc.<p>We then chatted on IM for about two hours. No LB'ing on my part. Lots on his, but he's in the fog. He swears that nothing physical happened between them, I still don't know what to believe. I guess for now I just have to trust him. <p>The SF thing I haven't met that need of his. I mean in the course of our 2 year marriage, I can count how many times we've had sex. I'm still working on that with my own therapist. I built up alot of resentment walls. He doesn't see any of his stuff right now. <p>He said he's scared. He also sees our house is a problem because of it's size. I listened, but I know that the house is only symptoms of our problems. <p>Our priest who is very cool and realistic says that the internet thing is a short cut to disaster. We have to slow this down. And that the only examples H has is that of his father whose motto could be "when in doubt - get out!" He also said that H sounds torn which is good and told me not to give up on it as long as he's sounding ambivalent. The original reason I had even called the priest was to ask about an annulment. I never asked. I know that's not what I want.<p>However, now I'm feeling like I don't know what I want either. It scares me. I hope that my H sees his sh@t soon. He says he's sorry and that he loves me..........but.........<p>That's where we are now. Comments? Advice?<p>Llama

^^bumping up^^

Llama,<p>So the size of your house is the determining factor? That is like saying you will take him back depending on the size of his _ _ _ _ s!<p>Give me a break. 2 people have a relationship with each other not each other and the size of a house. Just the fact that a few days ago he got mad because you did not walk him to the car, forget the fact that you gave him a soda and the fact that he kissed you on the cheek but still did not fix your computer is basic babble. <p>U don't have to take that stuff. K? Recall these memorable incidents when he wants to come back. Gently remind him if he is aware of this words to you. You may be surprised that he may not remember that he has been soooo stupid. They short term memory span exists because they are spending too much of the grey cells on the stupid A. <p>Let him know that you don't appreciate his weird actions (which you probably already did in your last letter) and that when he is able to have a decent adult conversation with you, you 'might' be willing to listen. <p>My H did the same things. When I recalled our conversations his first reaction was "I didn't say that!" I just looked at him with that stare and then he said, "did I really talk that stupid?" I nodded. H shook his head and apologized. U need to not exaggerate it but not underplay it either. My H finally did recall and that is when he apologized. <p>Funny thing, it took on an average of 10 - 15 days for it to sink in. Talk about having to be patient!!! Arrrgh..... not one of my better qualities. LOL!!! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>L.

Thanks Orchid. He actually said to me last night on the phone that he is not making good decisions right now. He invited me to his softball game tonight, but it's raining and the ground is too wet to play. He's also really sick with a cold. He apologized for being an a$$ on that evening when he tried working on the computer.<p>He just sounds like a mess - so confused. He was even crying at one point last night on the phone, but he wouldn't say why. I'm thinking he thinks that the OW wants more in a relationship with him than he does and he's missing me. (That's what he told his mom yesterday). So he's torn. <p>I'm just hanging in there, trying to protect myself and keep my chin up. I have another thread about setting boundaries, I'm not too good at it. Any suggestions?<p>Llama

Yesterday afternoon he Instant Messengered me crying saying he is "broke". I'm hoping that the rock bottom part is beginning to hit. I said I understood where he is coming from and yes it is difficult, etc. and left it at that. You see, his income is much more than mine, however, he's gone a bit overboard with spending and his high rent apt. ...he's not happy at work and is almost asking to get fired (they just changed his pay structure and a former boss who is a creep is his new boss again). My income was the "fun/mad money" that allowed us to do whatever we wanted. He tried calling last night but I chose not to answer, I was dead tired and needed to rest - went to bed at 8:30, usually I'm up until 11 or so. That's it for now.

Make OW lovebust more than you!
You are doing great.
L

Well, we talked last night for about 40 minutes. We actually talked with no LB on his end - first actual conversation we've had without him blaming me for something.<p>He went to see OW the last weekend in April, she came here to visit him (mind you she is 39 with a 17 year old and 10 year old at home) last week for a week. I was the first person he called when she left.<p>Anyway, he had made a trip to visit her over 6 weeks ago for next week. He's sounding like he's doubting the whole thing. I just listened (bit my tongue, but listened). He's says he'll know after this trip (if he goes) what is left in their friendship. He made it very clear he doesn't want more in the relationship and wants NOTHING to do with her children. My H is only 26 and we have no children. <p>I appreciated his no LB'ing and honesty about the trip. I still don't believe everything he's told me. He's afraid of OW estranged (abusive) husband. He's really sounding like he's doubting it all.<p>He asked why I was even listening to him talk about all of this and why I was even still around? He finally admitted that if the shoe were on the other foot, he'd probably divorce me immediately. I don't think the fog is lifting by any means. I think he feels like this OW's hero and helped her get out of her abusive relationship and doesn't want to be mean to her - that is his personality in general. He has never been a fair weather friend. I do believe some things he's said - just not all.<p>His mom thinks he really wants to come home. I'm definitely not ready for that - we have alot of work ahead for us. <p>I believe he will probably go on this trip. Maybe not, but I think he will. I think she may be LB'ing him now - wanting more out of the R than he wants. <p>My therapy is going well. I know I can't control what he thinks or does - nor do I want to control him either. It's interesting since this all came about (d-day 4/14/02) how I'm really looking past all this surface stuff (the A, trips, etc.) and am more interested in seeing how he is dealing with it all by himself. Sound weird? <p>I know not to analyze anything while he's in the fog. Someone said here at MB that only the spouse really knows how their WS really is. I feel my WS even though he has been an incredible jerk lately, is a warm, caring and sensitive man. I know what needs I have not been meeting for some time (long time). <p>Would love to hear from someone.....<p>Llama Hhugs,
Llama

^^bumping up^^^

llama,
Ok I am gonna quote you here:
“I think he feels like this OW's hero... “
Well let me tell you this, that kind of stuff is important to some guys (like me). Maybe that's one of his top EN (admiration). I know it sounds crazy, you think I am saying treat him like a hero but that's not what I mean. Maybe if he does something worth thanking him for, do it. Maybe try asking him to do something for you (like fix your computer again). Start out with little things. Maybe someday he will be your HERO again?<p> I have learned this whole surviving an A thing is a slow process. Like growing a flower from a seed. You have to give it what it needs to grow and keep giving. Before you know it you have something beautiful. <p>You seem to be doing a good job from the way it sounds. I am wondering if maybe he feels trapped, not able to undo what has already been done. I felt that way for a long time. I found the truth to be that things can’t be undone but they can heal and even be nurtured to grow stronger.<p>Now for the trip. I am betting he thinks that your marriage might not work out. Maybe he is holding on to the OW because he needs something to fall back on. See, he needs something or someone to be there for him. As demonic as he might seem right now, he is a human being. Maybe he thinks you have no reason to be there for him because of what he has done to you? He asked “why your where even listening to him talk about all of this, and why you are even still around?”. Did you tell him it was because you love him even though he has hurt you so badly?<p>I remember my last D-Day. I was furiously packing my bags and my wife just kept telling me she loved me and wanted to work this out. Now if she had blown up and started letting her anger out at me I would have just gotten more upset and justified what I was doing in my head. Instead she told me if I ever wanted to work this out to come home and we could. After I left and calmed myself down some, I thought about it. The fog broke hard and fast because she didn’t. I felt my heart drop my stomach knot up and my head feel like it was going to split in two. How could I have done this to a woman I loved. How could I even think I didn’t love this woman. I still feel tremendous guilt for what I had put her through but we are working it out together.<p>Maybe your H feels it’s hopeless. Did you ever think your H feels guilty? Maybe he thinks there is no way out of this mess he got you both into. I bet he can hear the foghorn but can’t figure his way out of the fog.....<p>Let me know how it goes....

LHM--<p>Thanks for your response. Your insight is so helpful. I DO think he feels trapped and I DO think he feels guilty. I do tell him that I love him and that's why I'm still around. I'm trying to create a safe environment for him to talk to me. <p>Do I say more about this trip? Just let him go? Any suggestions here?<p>Thanks,
Llama

llama,
Be honest with about it to him. Tell him how it will make you feel if he goes. No LB! Make sure you explain to him your not trying to pressure him into not going. That's not gonna help you, that's because you want him to make the right choice, and that's YOU. Isn't that what your thinking right now? If he goes he is choosing the OW over you? He needs to make that decision for himself, for your sake. I think if you don't tell him he might think you don't honestly love him. Kinda weird being in the fog. The most obvious things don't get though to you. It's the little things that will make him realize there is still hope. I hope you understand what I am saying...<p>Let me know what you think....

LHM -<p>I did tell him that the first time he went up there, that it really hurts me, etc. I did tell him last night that I worry about him if he goes too because of estranged abusive husband of OW (and I'm not certain what her intentions are). <p>At the same time, I feel if he goes, he may come out of the fog earlier and not wonder "what if". He was pretty clear about not wanting to have anything to do with her kids, etc. and I knowing him, I do believe this. I think he's scared stiff, but feels like he's committed to going and he doesn't want to go back on his word. (Boy, is that one hard for me to swallow, what about me and our marriage committment?)<p>I'm thinking she's LB'ing, but hell I don't know much. I'm trying to be strong and let him do the right thing. He's a bit immature and a problem we've had in our R is that I have taken on the parent role at times.<p>What do you think?
Tthanks,
Llama

lama,<p>“what about me and our marriage commitment?”<p>That's a great point. Do you know if he thinks about this? Maybe it’s something that has been lost in his fog as well? Find a way to let him know with out LB him. It may be just the thing he needs to hear. Tell him your keeping your end of the promise you made to him the day you got married. Maybe he needs to think about his promise to you v.s. his promise to the OW. Let me tell you about the whole “what if” in my case. I used to think that while I was in the fog now that I am out I think “who cares” I have what I want and there is nothing more I want. I spend my time thinking how do I keep what I have and how do I make it better. It takes time but you will get there.<p>Think about this, if he goes so be it. You will be there when he gets back. If he doesn't all the better. Always remember he is not thinking rationally right now. He will make mistakes it’s all about how much you can deal with. Worry about how you feel and always try to take things in stride. Be honest to yourself and to your H about your feeling but don’t let them make things worse. Do it in a respectful manor. “You get more flies with honey....” You can express your feeling in many different ways. Try a doing it differently until you find the one that clicks with your husband. Your going to slip from time to time and so will he. Knowing that helps BIG TIME. <p>I don’t know if you want to hear this right now but your H is hurt to. I know I was hurting bad. Be there for him the best way you know how and things will turn out for the best. I need to go home now so I will check on your later tonight. Maybe if my wife has some time I will have her chime in as well.<p>Hang in there....

Hey, llama:<p>Just adding my $.02 -- you definately should express your feelings to your H, but do not LB. Use I statements. "It will hurt me if you go to spend time with the OW. You must make your own decisions about what you want to do. I just want to let you know that I made a commitment to you the day we were married -- for better or worse. I love you and want to be M to you. I want to work on any issues in our M and to work on the areas where I was not meeting your ENs. As I said, it will hurt me if you go, but I want you to know that I love you and still want to work on our M. I hope that some day you realize this and want to work on our M also."<p>Something like this. My guess is he will probably still go -- the fog takes a while to break up, but the good news is that while he is there and she is LBing, he will remember your words. That will probably help blow a tiny bit of fog away.<p>One final thought -- WS are confused and really end up hurting themselves far more than the hurt us. I know it doesn't seem possible now, but it is the truth. Now, I am not saying that I still don't hurt tremendously over the betrayal sometimes. I do. But I know my H does also and he has to live with the guilt of his choices -- something that is really hard to do (as we all know when we have no one to blame but ourselves for our mistakes). IMVHO I think the reason some WSs run and never face their BS is because they are not strong enough to live with themselves -- it takes a strong person to admit his/her mistakes and live with the hurt he/she has caused a loved one. That is one of the reasons it is important for the BS to be a safe place to come to -- no LBing, especially when the WS opens up about the A.<p>Hope some of this helps. Hang in there -- the ride is bumpy, but we learn from the experience.<p>FHO