The Llama Chronicles - It's Official - Divorce Happening

Here's most of my story for those who don't know, updates are below:http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=37&t=017468(By the way, how do I do that link thing the way I've seen others do it?)My husband is already talking about divorce and refuses to discuss our marriage issues and/or saving it, etc. I know from reading here that he is really in the fog - deep, thick, heavy, fog.Since the separation (4/15), I've only really LB'd once and that was when he went nuts with the money and left me with squat. Does anyone feel they should be sainted for what you are doing in plan A? I have listened to him complain about me, blame me, telling me it's too late, telling me I drove him to the internet affair, etc. He, of course, still claims they are "just friends". And, I don't know anything - nor will he ever tell me anything, etc. etc.Sunday morning, after a few days of no contact with me, he called and brought over the old computer so I would have one at home to use. He acted so-so normal, pet the dog, etc. I gave him a hug and kiss on the cheek and let him know how much I appreciate him. I occasionally see him on AOL Instant Messanger and he will say "hi" and we will "chat" for a few minutes. I'm almost thinking I shouldn't even do that, but I want him to be able to trust me and at least rebuild some friendship while doing plan A. --- Any suggestions on this? It still saddens me so much just knowing that he is probably talking to or chatting with her at the same time.I found an old "love letter" email he sent me over a year ago, acknowledging things he was going to change in his life to help better our life, etc. I cried and cried and cried reading it. I said "this is the real him," "this is how I know him to be." In this letter from a year ago, he said "you don't know what you've got until it's gone and I never want you to be gone,". God, it was SO HARD to read. I just started writing and writing and writing. I edited it, re-read it, etc. and sent it to him along with the letter he sent me a year ago. We have always been able to send love notes via email throughout our relationship - it's been a good way for us to tell the other how we were feeling without getting an immediate negative reaction. He took the letter ok. He called and we talked for an hour. I just listened and listened. No LB's - just listened. He went off on me here and there - but overall it was OK. I told him that I know that we can rebuild our marriage and that I was there for the long haul, etc. And, that I understood he needs his space right now and I respect that. He said "thank you". He's sent a few "have a nice day" phone text messages to me here and there. And, even called last night and asked why I got off the instant messenger so quick - that he didn't want me to think he was purposely not responding, he was warming up some dinner. I know that no matter what I'm going to be okay. I still have very terrible days - just terrible. Last Saturday I cried almost an entire day. Any advice on how to get out of that? I know it's normal and I even tell myself "you're going to be okay, you're going to be okay." But, sometimes nothing seems to work. I spent two days this week on an exciting photo shoot for a freelance gig I have in addition to my regular FT job. I was in a historic area in a historic Bed n Breakfast. The two days flew by and I kept thinking " I can't wait to tell H about this b&b, he'll love it." Then I stop and think, I can't, he's not there. I ask him about his day and hear how everyone in his world has a problem - I mean everyone. I mention something about my two days and he doesn't even bite at it - not even a nibble. No "that's nice, that's intersting, nothing." Then I think about it, and it's always been that way. He never asks me about my day and gets annoyed at me when I ask him about his - God, it's just so strange.If anyone is up for a discussion about this - any more advice, reading, etc. I'd really appreciate it. This board is wonderful. I hope someday my H can get on here and see we are not the only ones.Hugs,
Llama[ June 18, 2002: Message edited by: llama ][ June 24, 2002: Message edited by: llama ][ June 24, 2002: Message edited by: llama ]

^^bump^^llama:
sounds like you are doing pretty good on the LB front. Don't get discouraged if you fall off the wagon now and again...as for crying... have you seen dr. about possibility of anti-depressant? others on the forum have used 'natural' products as well. I went on Celexa my first 4 months or so... helped me tremendously NOT cry ALL the time...Have your read "Surviving An Affair?" I'd also recommend "Divorce Remedy" by Michele Weiner-Davis... once you have read them... then make a plan. A BIG part of BOTH of them is taking care of yourself and MOVING FORWARD... sometime the WS seeing and/or feeling you moving on w/out them shakes them up.Good Luck,
Calips... for the linking thing--put: the address/link[ May 08, 2002: Message edited by: Cali ]

Thanks Cali - I'm just hanging in there. Thanks for your post. He has been out of town for a planned event yesterday and comes home tonight. His mom and stepdad have taken and/or picked him up from the airport. A month ago, he couldn't stand either one of them.He has stopped seeing her therapist because she made a comment about his new "rolex" that he bought when he went to meet the internet "friend". He got mad and decided he doesn't need the therapist any more. He also was on Celexa for his anxiety and went off that (I think from the advice of his father) a few weeks back. He doesn't have many friends, none of who could possibly be a good support system for him - and that worries me. Because we are such good friends. That's one of the hardest things I'm facing now is not having my best friend around to share things with. Any idea where I can get help with "I" statements. I know this is something I need to work on. I actually went lurking in some chat rooms a few days ago and it just freaked me out - how much everyone is talking about S. It was so dirty to me. I just don't get it. And, it hurts to think my husband has some other life I don't know about. It also hurts to hear me being blamed for everything. He is clueless that when he was trying to meet my emotional needs that I was there for him more physically - which my frigidness had been wearing off since our vacation in March and I felt all the while that he was making an effort to meet my EN. I dunno - the whole thing just makes me nuts.Any more advice?Thanks,
Llama

Ilama,
No new advice but if your busting at the seams to talk about your photo shoot I will listen, sounds really interesting to me.
L

[ May 14, 2002: Message edited by: llama ]

Well, he came home from out of town plan trip late last night. I decided NOT to answer the phone if he called or tried to make contact in fear that he would ask me for a divorce. He was with his father for 2 days and this is the only support his dad (nice dad, huh?) has given him - "just get a divorce. be happy!" Of course his dad has had not one but two failed marriages both of which he was a WH and cheated.He was online this morning, so I messengered him "welcome back, how was your trip?" he answered back "great, had fun, etc." And that was about the extent of it. His mom picked him up at the airport last night and I'm hoping the two of them chatted somewhat. Sometimes I don't even think this is about the OW who he says is just his friend, not his type, etc. I really believe that sometimes, although I really haven't pushed anything about the subject for weeks. My therapy is going great. I like my new therapist, I have seen her 4 times now - which means it's almost been a month that we have been separated. I'm sitting on the fence about telling our priest who married us. My H really respects him, but I'm sure he doesn't want to see him yet. But, somehow I feel the need to talk to him, but don't want that to be a major LB to my H. Even though I'm plan A'ing, I still feel like I'm walking on eggshells.Next weekend he is going out of town (we were both supposed to go originally) to his grandfather's memorial service (he died earlier this year). And, I know truly that he never really mourned the loss of his grandpa. He told me last week that he wanted to do this on his own. I said I was sorry that I couldn't be there, and that I would be here for him if he needed a friend.Thing is my H doesn't have that many true friends. Honestly, it's hard being his friend sometimes, so I can understand why. It's hard when I don't talk to him for a few days. I get back into the sad state again. I know in my heart that I'm going to be okay and I'm looking for other support during this time like MB, support groups, etc. I've been a christian/catholic my whole life, but never really prayed before. I've been doing ALOT of that lately. That's all for now. Everyone's support here is greatly appreciated.Thank you,
Llama

I just talked to his mom who picked him up last night at the airport. He keeps talking about quitting his job and "traveling". His mom asked about OW and he says "she's a nice lady and I consider her a friend, we're not in love or even physical with each other." His mom seems to believe this.However, he said she was going to come to visit him later this month - ugh! Geez, this fog thing is so UNREAL. I keep thinking...who is this guy and what did you do with my husband?I also know that this is just what he is saying today and tomorrow it could all change - who knows. Has anyone here dealt with a WS who actually moved away from the city you lived in? And, later came back? I know he has alot of figuring things out for himself - alot he is blaming on the marriage, but I think with enough time away from each other, he's got to realize that it wasn't all the marriage or me that was the problem.Llama

Hi Llama:
Just wanted to check in with you and tell you you're not alone. My H has been living w/ OW for 7 months now (since Oct.), and I got the same story...that they were "just friends" and he had "feelings for her", but wasn't in love, etc. Hmmmm...left his wife of 11 years to move in w/ someone I had never even heard of?The first 3 months of separation were torture. I cried every day; I still cry maybe once a week. But, life does look a little brighter as time goes on. Believe me, even 7 months later, I still hope that he wakes up one day and says "What the hell have I done?!" and comes to his senses. My H and I have virtually no contact, but when we do, I try to be upbeat and positive - and I know how hard that act is. Anyway, just wanted you to know I totally understand how you're feeling.

Thank Limu -As hard as it is to take these baby steps, it's also nice to know that I'm not the only one. I am so sorry for your situation though. Hang in there and feel free to keep in touch with me if you need to vent, etc.Llama

Well, here we go again. H and I have been chatting by phone and by Instant Messenger since my last post. No LB'ing on my end. Lots of it on his end.He told me he went to see a lawyer yesterday and it killed him. He said he didn't want to be there, but wanted to know if we didn't make it if I would want the house. I feel like he wants to talk to me but at the same time, he doesn't really ask anything about me. This morning he calls early to tell me he made a mistake with the joint checking account and I said "oh man". He went bizerk. "Don't say Oh Man, I'm calling to tell you about the problem and how I'm going to fix it." I assured him i just said "oh man" because I had wrote a check on that account to cover one of our credit card bills that we agreed to pay on. It seemed to cool down and we said ok and goodbye.He called again saying he was able to cancel the transaction and everything should be ok. I was obviously worried about the money and i'm sure it sounded that way. I said ok. See ya. Then he called again. (This is a regular issue for him, the constant calling and I know I need to set some boundaries here.)At this point I was boiling over. Thinking about all the money he has spent since we have been separated 4/15, including the trip to see OW the weekend before our anniversary. And I said of course I was upset and worried, he pushed my buttons hard and I got really mad. I tried to keep my cool, but started crying and was trying to hold back from letting him know that.I said something about being a good listener to him these past few weeks and that I'm trying very hard to work on my stuff and understand his hurt, etc. He never once has asked me how I feel about anything and if I begin to tell him in "I Statements" he changes the subject or says "I can't talk about that now." I have not once brought up the internet W or his visit with her. I got mad and told him to go ahead and file, that I was tired of his selfish behavior and mean-ness towards me. I feel like a doormat. He got upset and said he wants to hear about my feelings, but he wants me to write them down because he can't talk to me. Translation: he can't hear what I'm saying with an open ear and not interrupting me and getting defensive. He called back AGAIN. At this point I was crying. He asked me if I really wanted him to file and I said No. But I was feeling hurt because it has just sounded lately like he could take me or leave me. That simple - leave or work on it. I asked him why can't he listen to me like I have been listening to him? He was at work by then and couldn't talk. I asked him to think about that. I wrote him an email to be accountable for my behavior this morning, it says:Dear H,It must have felt to you as though I was mad at you this morning when I said "oh man" given that I have done that in the past. The only thing I can say about my reactions to you today is I am very scared. In the future I'll try not to react before you are finished talking and if you hear me doing it again, kindly let me know and I will stop. I don't want to do it because you think it is wrong and it hurts people I love, especially you. I appreciate that you called me to tell me about it honestly and came up with a solution to fix the mistake.I feel hurt when I look at our bank account and see how much money was spent in (OW's city)because I think it means that you don't care about me. I feel neglected when you avoid me because I think it means you don't love me anymore. I feel angry when you get loud with me and continue to blame me for the mistakes I have made in the past because I think it means I am a fool and inadequate. I feel afraid when you start talking about splitting our property because I think it means that you are already counting your part of the money so you can move on in life without me. I feel afraid to share any of my feelings because I think you may shut the the door permanently on me.This is all I am ready to share right now. Please know that I am trying to be there for you, but I also need time to work on me while we are apart. Love,
MeSo, now he just calls me at work and says how sorry he is for what happened this morning. I said I was sorry too and that I wrote him a letter. We talked a bit. He says that being separated really sucks and I agreed. He says it seems divorce would relieve us of this terrible feeling. Then he said even if he did come back, he doesn't think he could come back to our house. He believes that is part of the problem because it is small. I said I understood, but I thought we could look at what we could afford to do with the house prior to buying a larger one and see if we can make it accomodate our needs a little better. He disagrees. Then he says he feels he has worked on himself already and that he is who he is, etc. I said a few things about how am I supposed to know that he has been miserable if he is telling me how happy he is? I'm not a mind reader. He listened. I started to read him the letter over the phone but he kept getting interrupted - very typical also. Can't go anywhere or do anything without the damn phone ringing. Very frustrating.I never finished reading the letter and thanked him for calling. This is just torture. I just want to tell him "H, we have lost the money on the apartment already. Whether you live there or at home doesn't really matter. Decide if you want to work on us and let's do it. We don't have to be separated for 6 months (length of lease)." I don't feel that OW is a threat to me. It's not a case of her vs. me. I'm pretty sure of this. His grandfather's memorial service is this weekend. I was un-invited because of our separation. I'm sure it's going to be extremely hard for him as this is the first person close to him that has ever died. Feedback please.
Llama

Here's link advice, then I'll read and see what else I can offer.You can go back and Edit the post (like your post at the top of this thread). Once you're in Edit... Here's what your link will look like... see where your link info is printed twice? I bolded the second part I'm talking about. Replace that second one with whatever you'd like - usually the title of the actual link.[U?RL=http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=37&t=017468] http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=37&t=017468[/URL]So it will look like this....[U?RL=http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=37&t=017468] My Story[/URL]OK, hun, let me mull a bit, and re-read when I get home. I'm sure some others will be along... and I'll see what I can do... k?In the meantime... {{{{{{llama}}}}}}}[ May 14, 2002: Message edited by: Faith1 ]

Hi Llama - I think I'll start using "seasoned" to describe myself rather than my age. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] FWIW, here's my take on your situation:I suggest you get on anti-depressants immediately. Why do I say this? Because you are so wrapped up in what your H is doing that you probably cannot work on yourself or take care of yourself. You are letting him pull your strings and this is completely normal for one who hasn't gotten control of their emotions yet.See, the absolute best thing you can do regarding interaction with your husband is to become more aloof and less reactive, IMHO. I believe he keeps calling you and doing the things he's doing with you because he's scared $hitle$$ that he's gonna lose you - and he oughta be.So, I suggest you get on the meds pronto and start treating him with some indifference. Stop reacting to every current in the river. When you're always there, you give him reassurance that you're gonna STAY there. You have to get over this hump before you can gain ground in Plan A on yourself. If he's acknowledged your improvements already and he's driving you nuts, the only other choice is to put your foot down and Plan B - in effect, saying "leave me alone until you're REALLY ready to work on our marriage."I'll wait to see how this goes over with you before saying anything else.WAT

Hi Llama,Another seanson, well done BS here. I back up what WAT said. You need to let him stew in his mess. The thing about not wanting to come back to the house is probably more that he does not want to be reminded what he gave up. You are right about his wanting to work on the M has nothing to do about your current living conditions. My H said the same thing. For me that was babble. I told him go find a better place to live. Whether that displaces his family or not, don't worry because I am learning to live on the street. That will not bother me.
Abandoning my child me and displacing others would bother me but I am not doing that he is. Learn to recognize the babble and stay away from making decisions based on it. When he says something reasonable, then have a conversation. Please read up on plan B and the effects. If you need the link, let me know. It is around here somewhere. L.

Thanks WAT and OrchidI know you are both right. And - really - I was doing what you suggested. It's just that sometimes, as you know, the pot is boiling over and you lose it. I am taking care of me. So much that it is driving him crazy. He's mad because the neighbor couple who I always tried to do things with have befriended me and have been there. They have been great - even mowed my lawn to my surprise - which drove him nuts and made him mad. Funny, isn't it?About anti-depressants, my therapist thinks I don't need them. I have to agree with her. I've only had two bad days from hell during this whole month. I'm thinking that does not warrent anti-depressants, but I'm always open to it if I feel the need. You are both right, I do need to take care of myself and not worry about him so much. I need to NOT answer the phone every morning when he wakes me up. Let him wonder, you know. I'm fortunate to have a super support system and friends who are here for me keeping me busy as hell. To the point I feel bad about leaving the poor pooch at home. (That would be the real four-legged furry pooch.)I know that if he was through (or I for that matter), he wouldn't keep calling. It's the control thing. I'm better than that - I just have to keep reminding myself of that. It's funny, I've been out with friends twice in the last week - and you'd swear I had a neon sign on my head that reads "newly separated - let this woman know she is still desirable" I know that sounds so nuts, but I have to admit, it's been quite an ego boost. Coming home alone is still difficult - but I haven't cried myself to sleep in 3 weeks. That's a good thing, right?I question myself alot lately. My heart says "you can do it - work on your marriage" my head says "get the hell out of this thing". It's a constant struggle - but I think I'm doing okay.I appreciate hearing from everyone here. Between MB website, my friends and therapist - I'm set as far as support goes. Thank you Thank you Thank you. PLEASE keep posting for me. It, all of it, helps tremendously.Thank you,
Llama

WAT & Orchid are right on target.The one thing I'm wondering about is how you became uninvited from his grandfather's memorial service. I'm not clear if it is past or coming up, if it is still coming up...your H's family became your family when you married. Would it be uncomfortable to tell your H you would like to attend?2 months in our 1st separation my H's uncle died, and I asked to go with H & our kids to the funeral, across state. I think my H then realized that I do care for his family. I'd been critical of some of his family members' behaviors, not finishing high school, out of wedlock kids, heavy smokers. It wasn't the turning point in our troubles, but it was a positive effort.Secondly, if you don't want to go on anti-deps, take care of yourself, exercise, outside if possible, both offer a natural serotonin boost and I find walking nearly everyday helps manage my stress and anxiety. In the bad times, I went to the gym and lifted weights, and that was good too.And, watch out for going out and attracting predators...when your WS is not only NOT meeting your ENs but not even being nice, anybody can seem nice and/or attractive. Careful.

llama,
Hi! Hey as awful as you feel sometimes let me assure you , you are doing great!
I do agree with the others about making it more difficult to access you. Turn the ringer off on the phone for a couple days. When he asks say "I was so tired from going out so much I wanted an extra 10 minutes sleep" Then change the subject.
The pooch will be ok, just give him an extra piece of food and all will be forgiven. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]
Keep up the good work, you are awsome!

Lor -I told him I'd like to go to his grandfather's funeral this weekend up east, but he felt he needed to do it alone and that's what he wanted. I didn't want to convince him otherwise. I had told him weeks ago that even though we were "broken" right now that we are still a family. But he called his dad, sister and grandma and that's what he decided. I think he feels it will be less drama if I'm there. I think it will be more because I'm not there - but he'll have to learn that himself. Walking helps alot and Buddy (pooch) loves it even more than me. I have a great walking buddy neighbor who I've become friends with more since the separation. Of course, that makes steam come out of H's ears. He's VERY jealous about that.Haven't heard from him today. I know that's a good thing. But I'd rather have heard from him and then I would have had the choice NOT to answer the phone. Is that silly? I think I would have heard from him if the letter I had sent had really upset him. He's the kind of guy with a short fuse (like you probably haven't noticed that already from my posts, lol). If the letter was making him mad, he would have called immediately. Therapist appointment tomorrow. Working on making some plans for tonight. Keeping myself pretty busy these days. Thanks for your thoughts and kind words.Llama

Wednesday Update -No calls. He was going to go to dinner with him mom before going out of town for the funeral so they could talk, etc. He feels the house is one of our problems and I believe is wanting to know if I am open to selling it when/if we start re-building. Of course I am - we DO need a bigger house. He's a tester. To him it's about knowing that I will be willing to get another house is sayint the same thing as I AM committed to rebuilding our relationship. Make sense? (I know. I know.)Our DSL box that is very sensitive was unplugged or dropped by our a/c installer. H is in apartment, not house. I knew he had a softball game last night and called and asked "would you have any time before you go out of town to look at the computer, etc." He said "sure, I'll check up with you after my game tonight". I say okay.Meantime on phone, he calls fifteen minutes later saying he could probably walk me through it. I say OK, I think it may be more than that. He says "well I have time to do it now!" (in that tone). I say "i'm on the other line, can you call me after your game?" He says in the tone "fine, talk to you later" and hangs up. Talk about frustrating.....UGH!He calls after the game and comes by to look at computer and cannot get it working. I say "hey, no problem, we'll get it working later, etc." I fixed him a soda, etc. He can't get the dial up to work either. So I get out of his way and go to the living room, sitting on couch. He comes in and says he'll look for another part/plug and try again before he leaves for the weekend. I say thanks, I appreciate the effort. He gives me a kiss on the cheek and leaves. Then he comes back in frustrated because he forgot something. Then leaves again more frustrated.Two minutes later he calls and says "I came all the way over there to help you out and what did I get? NOTHING!" I said "What are you talking about?" He says "you could have walked me to my car or something". HELLO? I'm thinking, AM I A MIND READER????? I asked that if he wanted me to walk him to the car, he could ask me. I'm seeing my therapist today. I need a break, perhaps a week or so of no contact. I can't take this treatment. It's obviously HIM right now and not ME. I feel I'm doing everything I possibly can to give him his space and plan A and it still doesn't seem to be enough. I cried for a minute and then I was just plain mad.Fog Fog please go away. Are there any plan A type letter recommendations about just taking a week of no contact? Do I just start doing it without telling him?Thanks,
Llama

Saw therapist this morning. I sent H a letter asking for a week off from conversation - it has been too stressful for me and I needed time to work on me, etc. All for now,
Llama

I'm bumping this up myself. Here's the letter I sent to H yesterday. Dear H -My feelings for you have not changed – I love you, I want to rebuild our marriage, to meet each other’s needs and avoid hurting each other. However, our conversations over the last month have really been very stressful for me and I need a break for a week from the phone, email, IM, etc. until next Friday, May 24th. Also, in an attempt to keep our conversations, respectful – when we do talk, if I feel like I’m being attacked or disrespected, I will let you know and I will hang up. We can re-visit the conversation at a later time. I am willing to talk about any issue that comes up, but only in a respectful way. Please honor this request and understand it is not intended to be mean or insensitive. I need some time to work on my stuff and protect the love I have for you. I get this one from him this morning -
"i will be busy on the 24th all day and all weekend so i will talk to you in a few weeks...." he also called and left a message last night at home saying he could honor my request. Also I think that his "friend" is coming to visit next weekend - but it's only a guess.THEN he calls and says "you have a minute?" The 20 second call ended with him hanging up and sending this message via email (mind you, no LB'ing on my end)"you want your own space that is fine....stay out of mine then....you dont want to talk to me then stay off of messenger and dont e mail things to me anymore then. It is convient that you dont want to talk to me after you ask for my help. I agree lets not talk because our conversation have been ugly on both our parts.
guess you wont be ther during the weekend like you promised.....
dont reply cause i am leaving the office now"I can't take it anymore. I'm now NOT going to answer my own phone at work and let voicemail get it. I am trying to work on me and quit worrying about walking on eggshells with him. Will he ever get it?Venting - sorry. Suggestions anyone?

llama,
Do you think this frustration on his part could be a good thing?
My H was very critical and he vasilated between love and hate when he started having moments of fog lifting.
Keep being strong the time without contact will clear your head.
L

newest update -the OW is in town and went to his softball game last night. her hubby (i believe) is trying to track her down and have received calls from her city pretending to be the cable co. I confirmed with cable co that the call was bogus and called the police and fbi.his mother met her and said she's not that attractive but very pleasant (HELLO? Of course she's going to be pleasant!!!!)she's staying with him at his apartment. he told his mom that he's going to sleep on the floor - WHATEVER!!!!!the more i think about all of this, the more frustrated I'm getting and the more I keep asking myself "is this all really worth it?" I don't deserve any of this. UGH!!!!!Llama

llama,
Maybe you should "quit" working on this for a while, let the affair run its course while you are becoming stronger and more focused.
Sorry I dont have any one liners to make you laugh.
night
L

llama,
Let me start off by saying I am sorry for not seeing your request for me all this time. I know what you and your H are going through right now. What I can offer is some insight into what your H might be going threw. Right now he is lost in the fog (I can hear you say “WELL DUH” from here). He is confused about the future, about what he wants out of life. From everything you have posted (all his contact with you and so on) it seems he wants this to work itself out and fast! He needs to learn that it will work out, just not as fast as he would like and not by itself. He needs to learn that it will work out if he makes it work out. Let him know you are willing to do what ever it takes to do so.My wife and I have been in recovery for a long time now and it’s going great. When I say great I mean we have very good days and very bad days. We work very hard at it. It’s not going to clear up over night and he needs to learn that for himself. You can’t make him learn it but you can have some influence. Plan B you a$$ off! The other woman will LB$ and if you don’t your going to win.It sucks; I can only imagine how much for a BS. You should look into anti-depressants they will help you threw this difficult time of your life. They don’t hinder your train of thought only make you look at things in a logical manor. I was against taking them but was convinced when a close friend of mine told me he had been taking them for years. I never even noticed. Your husband needs time without contact from you. He needs to realize that he does love you and what he did is wrong for himself. Don’t LB$, that will only enable him to justify the A in his mind. There is no excuse for what he has done no matter what you did in the past. Always remember he should of done other things to fix his relationship with you rather then looking to other to meet his EN. Remember that’s what he is trying to do justify his actions. He knows what he is doing is wrong why do you think he needs his parent’s approval. That has to do with his past and his upbringing.My heart goes out to you and your H. I know he is hurting as well. I have been there. I remember the exact time I came out of the fog. It was hard, fast and hit me like a speeding freight train. I still feel the pain (the guilt tears me apart at times) of my actions, but I have a marriage that’s better then ever before. I hope this gives you some hope. I promise I will look for your posts everyday and keep checking up on you. Feel free to ask me anything. I mean anything. My W can also help because she is living through it from your end.

Bump so llama sees this

bump

Thanks so much for your response - Update as of today:First time we've talked in a week. We talked on the phone for a few. Kind of ironic he called while I was on the other line with our priest - LOL!He asked me who we could see as a counselor IF we decided to go. I said I wasn't sure, I could look into it, but that our priest said he would be there for either or both of us, etc.We then chatted on IM for about two hours. No LB'ing on my part. Lots on his, but he's in the fog. He swears that nothing physical happened between them, I still don't know what to believe. I guess for now I just have to trust him. The SF thing I haven't met that need of his. I mean in the course of our 2 year marriage, I can count how many times we've had sex. I'm still working on that with my own therapist. I built up alot of resentment walls. He doesn't see any of his stuff right now. He said he's scared. He also sees our house is a problem because of it's size. I listened, but I know that the house is only symptoms of our problems. Our priest who is very cool and realistic says that the internet thing is a short cut to disaster. We have to slow this down. And that the only examples H has is that of his father whose motto could be "when in doubt - get out!" He also said that H sounds torn which is good and told me not to give up on it as long as he's sounding ambivalent. The original reason I had even called the priest was to ask about an annulment. I never asked. I know that's not what I want.However, now I'm feeling like I don't know what I want either. It scares me. I hope that my H sees his sh@t soon. He says he's sorry and that he loves me..........but.........That's where we are now. Comments? Advice?Llama

^^bumping up^^

Llama,So the size of your house is the determining factor? That is like saying you will take him back depending on the size of his _ _ _ _ s!Give me a break. 2 people have a relationship with each other not each other and the size of a house. Just the fact that a few days ago he got mad because you did not walk him to the car, forget the fact that you gave him a soda and the fact that he kissed you on the cheek but still did not fix your computer is basic babble. U don't have to take that stuff. K? Recall these memorable incidents when he wants to come back. Gently remind him if he is aware of this words to you. You may be surprised that he may not remember that he has been soooo stupid. They short term memory span exists because they are spending too much of the grey cells on the stupid A. Let him know that you don't appreciate his weird actions (which you probably already did in your last letter) and that when he is able to have a decent adult conversation with you, you 'might' be willing to listen. My H did the same things. When I recalled our conversations his first reaction was "I didn't say that!" I just looked at him with that stare and then he said, "did I really talk that stupid?" I nodded. H shook his head and apologized. U need to not exaggerate it but not underplay it either. My H finally did recall and that is when he apologized. Funny thing, it took on an average of 10 - 15 days for it to sink in. Talk about having to be patient!!! Arrrgh..... not one of my better qualities. LOL!!! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] L.

Thanks Orchid. He actually said to me last night on the phone that he is not making good decisions right now. He invited me to his softball game tonight, but it's raining and the ground is too wet to play. He's also really sick with a cold. He apologized for being an a$$ on that evening when he tried working on the computer.He just sounds like a mess - so confused. He was even crying at one point last night on the phone, but he wouldn't say why. I'm thinking he thinks that the OW wants more in a relationship with him than he does and he's missing me. (That's what he told his mom yesterday). So he's torn. I'm just hanging in there, trying to protect myself and keep my chin up. I have another thread about setting boundaries, I'm not too good at it. Any suggestions?Llama

Yesterday afternoon he Instant Messengered me crying saying he is "broke". I'm hoping that the rock bottom part is beginning to hit. I said I understood where he is coming from and yes it is difficult, etc. and left it at that. You see, his income is much more than mine, however, he's gone a bit overboard with spending and his high rent apt. ...he's not happy at work and is almost asking to get fired (they just changed his pay structure and a former boss who is a creep is his new boss again). My income was the "fun/mad money" that allowed us to do whatever we wanted. He tried calling last night but I chose not to answer, I was dead tired and needed to rest - went to bed at 8:30, usually I'm up until 11 or so. That's it for now.

Make OW lovebust more than you!
You are doing great.
L

Well, we talked last night for about 40 minutes. We actually talked with no LB on his end - first actual conversation we've had without him blaming me for something.He went to see OW the last weekend in April, she came here to visit him (mind you she is 39 with a 17 year old and 10 year old at home) last week for a week. I was the first person he called when she left.Anyway, he had made a trip to visit her over 6 weeks ago for next week. He's sounding like he's doubting the whole thing. I just listened (bit my tongue, but listened). He's says he'll know after this trip (if he goes) what is left in their friendship. He made it very clear he doesn't want more in the relationship and wants NOTHING to do with her children. My H is only 26 and we have no children. I appreciated his no LB'ing and honesty about the trip. I still don't believe everything he's told me. He's afraid of OW estranged (abusive) husband. He's really sounding like he's doubting it all.He asked why I was even listening to him talk about all of this and why I was even still around? He finally admitted that if the shoe were on the other foot, he'd probably divorce me immediately. I don't think the fog is lifting by any means. I think he feels like this OW's hero and helped her get out of her abusive relationship and doesn't want to be mean to her - that is his personality in general. He has never been a fair weather friend. I do believe some things he's said - just not all.His mom thinks he really wants to come home. I'm definitely not ready for that - we have alot of work ahead for us. I believe he will probably go on this trip. Maybe not, but I think he will. I think she may be LB'ing him now - wanting more out of the R than he wants. My therapy is going well. I know I can't control what he thinks or does - nor do I want to control him either. It's interesting since this all came about (d-day 4/14/02) how I'm really looking past all this surface stuff (the A, trips, etc.) and am more interested in seeing how he is dealing with it all by himself. Sound weird? I know not to analyze anything while he's in the fog. Someone said here at MB that only the spouse really knows how their WS really is. I feel my WS even though he has been an incredible jerk lately, is a warm, caring and sensitive man. I know what needs I have not been meeting for some time (long time). Would love to hear from someone.....Llama Hhugs,
Llama

^^bumping up^^^

llama,
Ok I am gonna quote you here:
“I think he feels like this OW's hero... “
Well let me tell you this, that kind of stuff is important to some guys (like me). Maybe that's one of his top EN (admiration). I know it sounds crazy, you think I am saying treat him like a hero but that's not what I mean. Maybe if he does something worth thanking him for, do it. Maybe try asking him to do something for you (like fix your computer again). Start out with little things. Maybe someday he will be your HERO again? I have learned this whole surviving an A thing is a slow process. Like growing a flower from a seed. You have to give it what it needs to grow and keep giving. Before you know it you have something beautiful. You seem to be doing a good job from the way it sounds. I am wondering if maybe he feels trapped, not able to undo what has already been done. I felt that way for a long time. I found the truth to be that things can’t be undone but they can heal and even be nurtured to grow stronger.Now for the trip. I am betting he thinks that your marriage might not work out. Maybe he is holding on to the OW because he needs something to fall back on. See, he needs something or someone to be there for him. As demonic as he might seem right now, he is a human being. Maybe he thinks you have no reason to be there for him because of what he has done to you? He asked “why your where even listening to him talk about all of this, and why you are even still around?”. Did you tell him it was because you love him even though he has hurt you so badly?I remember my last D-Day. I was furiously packing my bags and my wife just kept telling me she loved me and wanted to work this out. Now if she had blown up and started letting her anger out at me I would have just gotten more upset and justified what I was doing in my head. Instead she told me if I ever wanted to work this out to come home and we could. After I left and calmed myself down some, I thought about it. The fog broke hard and fast because she didn’t. I felt my heart drop my stomach knot up and my head feel like it was going to split in two. How could I have done this to a woman I loved. How could I even think I didn’t love this woman. I still feel tremendous guilt for what I had put her through but we are working it out together.Maybe your H feels it’s hopeless. Did you ever think your H feels guilty? Maybe he thinks there is no way out of this mess he got you both into. I bet he can hear the foghorn but can’t figure his way out of the fog.....Let me know how it goes....

LHM--Thanks for your response. Your insight is so helpful. I DO think he feels trapped and I DO think he feels guilty. I do tell him that I love him and that's why I'm still around. I'm trying to create a safe environment for him to talk to me. Do I say more about this trip? Just let him go? Any suggestions here?Thanks,
Llama

llama,
Be honest with about it to him. Tell him how it will make you feel if he goes. No LB! Make sure you explain to him your not trying to pressure him into not going. That's not gonna help you, that's because you want him to make the right choice, and that's YOU. Isn't that what your thinking right now? If he goes he is choosing the OW over you? He needs to make that decision for himself, for your sake. I think if you don't tell him he might think you don't honestly love him. Kinda weird being in the fog. The most obvious things don't get though to you. It's the little things that will make him realize there is still hope. I hope you understand what I am saying...Let me know what you think....

LHM -I did tell him that the first time he went up there, that it really hurts me, etc. I did tell him last night that I worry about him if he goes too because of estranged abusive husband of OW (and I'm not certain what her intentions are). At the same time, I feel if he goes, he may come out of the fog earlier and not wonder "what if". He was pretty clear about not wanting to have anything to do with her kids, etc. and I knowing him, I do believe this. I think he's scared stiff, but feels like he's committed to going and he doesn't want to go back on his word. (Boy, is that one hard for me to swallow, what about me and our marriage committment?)I'm thinking she's LB'ing, but hell I don't know much. I'm trying to be strong and let him do the right thing. He's a bit immature and a problem we've had in our R is that I have taken on the parent role at times.What do you think?
Tthanks,
Llama

lama,“what about me and our marriage commitment?”That's a great point. Do you know if he thinks about this? Maybe it’s something that has been lost in his fog as well? Find a way to let him know with out LB him. It may be just the thing he needs to hear. Tell him your keeping your end of the promise you made to him the day you got married. Maybe he needs to think about his promise to you v.s. his promise to the OW. Let me tell you about the whole “what if” in my case. I used to think that while I was in the fog now that I am out I think “who cares” I have what I want and there is nothing more I want. I spend my time thinking how do I keep what I have and how do I make it better. It takes time but you will get there.Think about this, if he goes so be it. You will be there when he gets back. If he doesn't all the better. Always remember he is not thinking rationally right now. He will make mistakes it’s all about how much you can deal with. Worry about how you feel and always try to take things in stride. Be honest to yourself and to your H about your feeling but don’t let them make things worse. Do it in a respectful manor. “You get more flies with honey....” You can express your feeling in many different ways. Try a doing it differently until you find the one that clicks with your husband. Your going to slip from time to time and so will he. Knowing that helps BIG TIME. I don’t know if you want to hear this right now but your H is hurt to. I know I was hurting bad. Be there for him the best way you know how and things will turn out for the best. I need to go home now so I will check on your later tonight. Maybe if my wife has some time I will have her chime in as well.Hang in there....

Hey, llama:Just adding my $.02 -- you definately should express your feelings to your H, but do not LB. Use I statements. "It will hurt me if you go to spend time with the OW. You must make your own decisions about what you want to do. I just want to let you know that I made a commitment to you the day we were married -- for better or worse. I love you and want to be M to you. I want to work on any issues in our M and to work on the areas where I was not meeting your ENs. As I said, it will hurt me if you go, but I want you to know that I love you and still want to work on our M. I hope that some day you realize this and want to work on our M also."Something like this. My guess is he will probably still go -- the fog takes a while to break up, but the good news is that while he is there and she is LBing, he will remember your words. That will probably help blow a tiny bit of fog away.One final thought -- WS are confused and really end up hurting themselves far more than the hurt us. I know it doesn't seem possible now, but it is the truth. Now, I am not saying that I still don't hurt tremendously over the betrayal sometimes. I do. But I know my H does also and he has to live with the guilt of his choices -- something that is really hard to do (as we all know when we have no one to blame but ourselves for our mistakes). IMVHO I think the reason some WSs run and never face their BS is because they are not strong enough to live with themselves -- it takes a strong person to admit his/her mistakes and live with the hurt he/she has caused a loved one. That is one of the reasons it is important for the BS to be a safe place to come to -- no LBing, especially when the WS opens up about the A.Hope some of this helps. Hang in there -- the ride is bumpy, but we learn from the experience.FHO

llama,
How are things going? Listen to what my wife had to say, she knows her stuff.

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LHM & FHO -Thank you so much for your responses. Well, he's gone. I'm hurting today big time. I kept getting the feeling that he'd back out and be here at my office waiting for me or that he'd call this morning before he left - wishful thinking on my part, I guess.We've had some decent conversations. Not alot of R talk, but respectful conversations. I went to the mall with him on Saturday night and we spent time together afterwards at an ice cream place. He held my hand, told me he loved me, hugged me, etc. He mentioned it would be nice for him to get text messages from me every once in a while and for me to pick up the cleaning every once in a while. I said okay, no problem, I can do that if that's what you want, etc. He says he wants to try to work it out, but doesn't want to see a counselor. I said I want to try and work it out too, but I felt a counselor is really needed so we have a safe neutral place to share our feelings without fearing the other person will "go off" as in the past. I've been doing great on the no LB'ing, but he is not even close. He says he wants to know how I feel, but if I begin to express, he reacts and defends himself. So, I know he's not ready to hear any of it. As far as the trip, he says it's NOT what I think and wishes I could trust him (in firm voice). Hello? How can he even question my trust for him? I just listened and said how much I appreciate his openness now, but I need time to heal and we both need to want to earn each other's trust back, etc. He took that ok. Overall, we had a good night, I of course, didn't want him to go back to his apartment, but he left, I cried. He said when he starts getting sad, that he starts getting angry and wanted to leave before he said something mean. He called me on his way back and said I could look for a therapist for us while he is gone.Sunday morning he calls me and asks if I want to meet for breakfast - a place we've always gone to for almost 5 years. I said yes, and met him there about an hour later. It went ok. As we were leaving, he said "you probably don't want to come over to the apartment, I understand." then I said "I'd like to spend more time with you this morning, but I'm not sure about going back to your apartment, etc." He seemed ok with it, but not really. We left with a hug, kiss and "I love you". Fifteen minutes later he called saying "we're going to be separated for four months more (he has 6 month lease), so you're going to have to come over here sometime. He started getting defensive with me, saying things like "i'm not ashamed of what I've done or doing" (ouch, that one really hurt - i know it's fog talk, but ouch!) but the conversation ended ok. I called him later with the suggestion that if either of us really have a need/want that maybe we could each preface the statement with "it would really mean alot to me if......(you came over to my apartment, etc.)" He seemed to like that idea okay. I didn't hear from him the rest of the day so at about 8pm I called him to tell him I wanted to say "hey" before he left. We chatted for a while and that was it. I told him that I'd be thinking about him every day while he was away and he said the same back. So, now we have another week apart from each other. He has no more vacation left at his job. He wants to quit his job still. He seems so unhappy and depressed with his own life. Is it normal to start looking at all of this deeper into the relationship and wonder "is this really what I want?" I'm beginning to have those thoughts. I love him deeply, don't get me wrong. But, there seems to be so much more than our issues here and I know that I'm going to have to be the stronger person until he faces some of his stuff. I pray for the strength, but it is so very tiring. I'm just sad today. He won't be home until next Monday.
When you have time to read and digest this, I'd love to hear from you both.Hhugs,
Llama

llama,
Hi, just a thought. While he is gone this would be a good week to read "boundaries" or "love must be tough" I am reading boundaries we could compare notes.
2 things I want you to think about.
You say you have taken on the parent role sometimes. A lot of time it is so easy to be pushed into this (picking up his cleaning?)
But this makes it easy for him to feel not needed and not a "hero" when he is not taking responsibility for his own stuff.
I hope that made sense.
Also think about when you met, what did he love about you?
I will check on you later
L

Thanks Sad Princess -About the cleaning - he feels I never want to get it (true statement) and wants me to do it sometimes. My parent role comes in more when making financial decisions, cleaning house, etc. I haven't asked him what he loves about me yet. He says he misses my companionship, friendship, etc. He's at the airport text messaging me now like "have a good week, talk to you monday" I said "are you on the plane?" he says "no, i misread ticket, i'm not leaving for another hour" I type back "I love you H" he types the same back, then i say "i thought maybe you changed your mind" then he says "that was not nice, sorry I gotta go" (I feel like I can't do/say anything right) I said "i'm sorry, I thought with the time change, maybe you had changed your plans" then he said "no problem, have a good week" I say "I love you H and I'm just a phone call away" he says "thank you". That was about it. I've read Love Must Be Tough. Very similar to taking the plan B approach of MB. I got alot out of it, but I don't think this is the right approach for us right now. I don't know about the "boundaries" book. Who is it by?Thanks,
Llama

llama,
First off good job on no LB! That's what you have to do. I am sorry he left today I know it's rough for you. As far as you not going over to his apartment, did you explain to him why? From your post it sounds like he assumed you would not go. Figure out why he even wants you to go there (the real reason). If he knew you would say "no", he must have some idea of why you would say no. I bet he has the wrong idea. I am thinking you won't go because it would hurt, I bet he thinks you wont go because you are mad. You can see how that kind of thinking just feeds the fire. You both need to ask reasons instead of assuming. You need to tell him how much it hurts that he even lives there. You can also tell him 4 months is nothing compared to the rest of your lives together. Remember he left you. Ask him why he wants you to come to his apartment? I personally don't think you should go. Explain to him how it will make you feel. Then stick to your guns and don't go. Without love busting........ I suggest you don't text message him while he is gone. If he does you, then you can answer but keep it short and neutral. He needs to realize, I mean honestly realize that he has made some bad decisions. He needs to figure out he is about to lose everything good in his life for a stupid [censored] fantasy. No matter how much you tell him this he needs to learn it for himself.Here is something that helped me get threw some hard times. I would think about all the people I know who have been threw this. How I was not the only one who felt the pain of this madness. They made it out alive some better then others, some worse but they all made it. Life goes on and you need to remind yourself of this. As harsh as it sounds it will help you feel a little bit better. On the same note I would think about how I could make the outcome better for myself. That eventually turned into how I could make it better for my W and I. Things can get better and this will dull with time. While he is gone you need to find a counselor. I mean it! If you want this to work out he needs to be helped. I was so lost without someone unbiased to help me figure it all out. I will check in on you later, right now I am at work so it's hard to get into it more. Hang in there have hope and do something good for yourself this week. Make some plans do anything!!!!! You need a little mental vacation. Not to forget but to rest your mind for a bit.

LHM -I will see my therapist this Thursday and will get some referrals from her about counselors that she recommends, etc. I have a feeling (hunch) that he's going to come back like everything is just honky dory and he can be ready to work on this marriage whenever he feels like it? I'm just really upset about this whole thing today. Three visits with each other in less than 5 weeks? I'm starting to feel really stupid and naive for believing anything he says. I hope and pray that something/anything will "hit" him this week while he is gone. As far as the apt. thing goes, he knows I'm hurt and that's why I just don't want to go hang there - that and the fact that she was there for over a week - total BS in my opinion. She slept in his bed while he slept on the floor.Originally, I asked him to take the couch or another residence while we were fighting in April - his disrespectful way of talking to me was at it's high. I didn't find out about the internet affair until AFTER I asked him. He had a friend he could have stayed with for free and chose to sign a 6 month lease, etc. after he returned. The trip he's on now was planned way back then around 4/14/02 or so. Honestly, I just don't know what to believe anymore. I want to believe him. I just can't right now. I'm pretty upset today - first day feeling this upset in a while. I wish there was some bird of rational thinking that could tell me what the hell was going on. I'm rambling and venting. Hope to hear from you and your wife again - your caring is giving me strength and hope!Llama

llama,
Real quick before I head for home. Maybe this will give you some hope. Let me tell you about an Internet A, It's are all in his mind. He has this idea of what she is like, but it's not the truth. They is no way to look into some ones eyes, to hear the tone of their voice or see how they react to certain things. Right now he has built this image in his mind of how she really is. He may think she is perfect but the truth is nobody is. Maybe that's why he is still talking to you even after her visit to his apartment? On the internet people pretend to be what they want themselves to be. It easy because there is no work involved. You want to be some successful rich sugar momma you can be just type it. The same goes for peoples ethics and believes. They might talk a big game on the net but it's a lot different in real life. Your husband may find this out for himself this week. And when he does he will think about the way you are in real life! Let me know what you think. I will check in on you tonight...

llama,
just checking up to see how your doing...

LHM -Thanks for your post. I don't have access to a computer in the evening right now because mine is on the fritz.I understand what you are saying about the internet thing. I just never expected him to want to make it real that's all. And, I know it's not really real. It's still just all so overwhelming for me at times and I pray for the strength to get through this. I got to work this morning and he was online from where he is. Here's how it went:H: i am thinkign of you
H: i was kinda hoping you would be on this morning
llama: thank you - i'm thinking of you too
llama: me too
H: peace out
Llama: take care
H: i can e mail you some pics later if you want
llama: ok
H: remember you are my best freind
llama: remember how much i love you
H: i am happy and sad today, but i am taking care of me
llama: i'm glad you are taking care of you
H: thanks for the support
llama: you're welcome
H: are you ok
llama: i'm sad, but i'm ok
H: please dont be
llama: i'm trying but it's difficult - just being truthful
H: ok
H: talk to you soon ta ta
llama: take careThis was the extent of our conversation today. It hurt that he didn't say he loved me. And this "ta ta" thing is something new. He said to me yesterday in a text message something like "not goodbye, just ta ta" when I said goodbye. I'm realling bumming about this trip. I talked to his mom briefly last night (she called to check on me). It's so weird to hear her talk like this is all "normal" - I just don't get it. She feels he just wants to "run away" and escape reality for now and spend time by himself. Maybe this is true, I still don't understand. And, i know trying to understand anything about any of this isn't worth alot of my energy as it changes from day to day. Were you and your wife separated? Is your story here somewhere? You and your wife's feedback and support means so much to me and has been very helpful - I really really appreciate it.Llama

llama,
Your husband is way deep into the fog. He tells you you're his best friend. I think he maybe saying this because he feels guilty for what he is doing. You might want to consider some plan B action. He needs to know your not ok with this. I know you love your H but maybe it's time to start protecting yourself from his hurtful actions. He is hurting you beyond belief and he thinks telling you that your his "best friend" makes it better. Does it? Tell him that. I am betting it only confuses/hurts you more. Your husband has been exposed to an OEA and he thinks real life should be like his online life. It's a fantasy so it's not gonna happen. When he talks to you via IM it's easy for him. He doesn't have to see your expressions, hear the tone in your voice and he can just leave when HE is ready. Have you considered not talking to him via IM. He can call you right? Why doesn't he do that?As far as his mother goes, she knows her son has F^#$ed up. why do you think she is making excuses for him? Remember he is your H not hers, your relationship is one of peers not mother/son. Don't let her talk you into questioning the way you feel about what your H is doing to your marriage. She feels responsible for some of this, and she is! She was his one of his teachers in how to have a relationship. Think about it.....I am so happy to hear your going to counseling on Thursday. Just keep in mind it's doesn't work overnight it takes time. Also this counselor might not be the right one for you. If you don't like him/her find a new one. My counselor is great for me but he might not be right for you. Get what I mean?Now for my story, the short version.
Wife and I had problems in our marriage. No fighting, yelling, screaming or any of the stuff you might think. Things where just not working out for us. Not meeting each others EN. A lot of LB and neglect on both ends. We where like roommates not H and W. Instead of one of us talking about it and trying to work this stuff out I shut myself into my own little world. I found myself trying to meet my EN online. I started to question my marriage and my love for my wife. I thought she should know how to make me happy.Well to shorten this story up D-Day #1. She found an email, I denied everything. She installed spyware software on my computer a few weeks later. D-Day#2 she had been watching my online fantasy via this software and kept it to herself. She was doing plan a and I didn't even know. I asked her what was wrong a bunch of times one night and it went into it from there. She told me she had found another email I sent to this other woman in my hotmail account. Told me she paid a hacker to get my password so I didn't know she had the software still installed. We worked out a deal that we would try to work things out and I wouldn't talk to this woman online. I didn't stop. It was an addition and I was still having little hope for our marriage.D-Day#3 It's was a Monday, I came home from work to find her crying in the kitchen on the phone with her sister. She told me she knew everything and I got scared so I started running away. I went upstairs and started to pack my bags. My wife rather then LB my for what I had done did just the opposite and told me she loved ma and wanted to work it out. She asked me if I loved her I told her NO. She cried more I was so out of my mind... She told me if I ever wanted to work out our marriage that I could come home and we could try. She told me she still loved me even though I hurt her so much. Those words rang threw my head. I left for my parents house. It was so surreal. A few hours later I was laying in a bed at my parents house staring at the ceiling. I started to come out of the fog. I thought about how good our marriage use to be how much, we loved each other. How she was always there for me in the past. Then I started to miss those times so much. Then I started to think what I could of done to have prevented this from happening. Then I asked myself why I didn't do those things in the past. I called her that night. We talked on the phone for a week I came home the following Friday. The next months where hard but we made it. It took me a long time to get totally out of the fog. But I am happy again. We have GREAT days and we have really bad days. The bad days are getting farther and farther apart.Hang in there all I can say if this work out you will be so happy you did. It's worth the effort 10 fold.

Thanks LHM-I've beeing seeing a therapist (who I love) since the week following d-day. She's great and I've grown alot in the last 6 weeks or so.I do think my husband feels guilty. And I do think the online chat isn't good for us. I will figure out a way without LB to tell him this - any thoughts? He seems so on edge right now - I know he's deep in the fog. He is very overly sensitive and I don't want to come across as I don't care, you know what I mean?Geez, sometimes I don't even know what I mean, lol! I think he is testing me to see if I will create a safe environment for him to talk which I have been (and haven't in the past). So, my fear is that I will mess that up and he will see it as a LB.I'll check back later today, I don't have access in the evening right now.Llama

llama,
Sometimes you just need to tell him how you honestly feel. Say "H please don't take this the wrong way, I love you but I would rather you call me instead of IM me. It reminds me to much of your EOA. I am telling you this because I love you and I know you will try to understand how I feel." If he gets mad apologize that it makes him feel the way it does but you must go on without IMing him. I would not consider that LB. He will call you trust me...

Thanks LHM that makes sense and sounds nice. There is a fear in me about bringing up the OW because of that being a LB. He's so in denial about me worrying about him choosing her over me and says it's not that way, etc. It won't be real to me until I see some actions that back up his words, you know? I'm doing my part of having the actions to back up my words without LB'ing. I make some mistakes, but when I do, I apologize right away and hold myself accountable. I'm hoping that will help set a good example for H. REgardless I know it is helping me become a better person.Llama

Maybe I am missing something, so please let me know if I am - I haven't read the entire thread...What's so bad about the IM thing? It is one form of communication, which many BS's would love to have at least that. It might possibly be all WS can muster up at this point. Pressuring him to switch modes of communication might be an LB? Or an unnecessary demand??Like I said, please help me if I missed the point of that.Can you request phone calls IN ADDITION to the IM and text msgs? Letters are great too. Face-to-face communication is great too. I agree that the IM **exclusively** may end up being a crutch... ok.. I'll be back.. going to read more and see what you're needing help with... be right back...

ok, I read... I may have missed a few things.llama, I still see that the advice for you on the first page of this thread is still applicable.Are you on Anti-D's? I believe you are still trying to analyze his every little word and action. I think you need to stop focusing so much on him, and on yourself. Think of some things to keep yourself busy. Exercise? Friends? Find some favorite TV shows? Read? Pray? Write in a journal. I used to drive myself crazy trying to figure all this stuff out. I started writing it all down in a journal, and it's amazing how much that helps. I sometimes have imaginary conversations with my H (in my journal or to my steering wheel [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] ) to get my thoughts out, or to try to imagine what his answers would be.Relax a little bit. I think you're doing fine on the communication. WHen he takes something the wrong way, just take a deep breath and apologize. I kick myself ALL the time - it seems I can NEVER say things the right way. That's ok. I apologize a LOT to people. My brain goes faster than my mouth sometimes, so things come out wrong. Part of that is the "assuming" that someone was talking about above. If you assume H meant something, you will often come out with the wrong response. Ask, if you are not sure what he means.As far as going to visit him at his apartment? Sure! You're in PLan A, so you need to meet as many needs as possible. Take him some dinner. Bake him some cookies. Remind him you love him, and miss him, and what he is doing hurts you, but you understand that he is doing what he thinks is best right now. Have you identified major LB's to him? Write them down, and really work on avoiding them. This will help you identify what he really needs most from you, instead of being so scared and cautious - and this being a doormat. You don't have to give up your whole identity trying to please him. But stretch and study the main things that will meet his EN's and avoid LB's.So,in a nutshell, quit worrying so much about him, and focus on making your life livable for llama - without him, k? If he returns, if he commits, that's icing on the cake!! Does that help? Hope something in there does... my heart goes out to you... your questions and concerns remind me of me this time last year.

Thanks Faith -
I guess we (BS's) know all this but have to be reminded of it again and again. Thank you! I do try to overanalyze his every move/word, etc. And, I do forget about me! Although, I am doing a darn good job at getting out and keeping myself busy. In addition to my full time work, I'm a freelance editor for a local magazine. And, that is keeping me really busy. I think I'm at my best when we are separate and taking "breaks" from communication. Then we communicate, then I long to see him, then I see him and it's good, then I don't want to "not" see him. So perhaps this trip that is for HIM will be a good break for ME. I think I am at least for now give myself a break with the IM thing, at least while he is away this week. It disrupts me at work and depending on the conversation, it can leave me drained emotionally. He needs to figure out his sh$t!!! Only he can do that. Your post is what I need occasionally! Thank you!{{{{{Llama Hhugs Tto Yyou}}}}}

Llama-Well, you asked for it, so here I am. How on earth do you manage to get thes long thread going, I cant get them past 10-15 replies if I am lucky!Not much advice to give. But, I have to say, what the hay are these internet A's all about. I mean, do you really know who that person is on the other end. WH could be having an A with another guy for all he knows, and then to invite them over, COME ON, WHAT GIVES. I have to deal with enough nuts in my daily life, let alone invite one over! Sorry, but these internet things really make my head spin. Its only been 2 mos since DDay, an eternity for you, but only a short time to some of us AARP members here. I can guarantee that things will get better, slowly but surely they will. From what I have read here, I get the feeling that maybe there is more going on in WH's head than just the A, could there be a healthy dose of MLC going on as well?Look over your posts and see what is working and what isnt (maybe keep a journal as well), then set some boundaries as to what you will accept from WH and what you wont. Make sure you do some serious self-evaluating as well and decide what areas you want to improve on (Plan A).To me, its way to early to go to Plan B. Keep the Plan A going (for yourself, remember that) and set those boundaries and stick with them! These boundaries will keep the emotional turmoil at a minimum and allow you to stay in Plan A a lot longer.Stand tall and be proud of all you have accomplished. Its tough, but you will get through this a much better person!
[img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Thanks LoveHerStill -I'm much better today. I had only hoped that when my WH met the OW that she was a man, lol! All kidding aside. I'm in therapy with a great therapist and I'm working on boundaries and trying as best I can to keep my chin up. I'm busier now (weeknights and weekends) than I think I ever have been.My H is pretty young for a MLC, but the MO is very similar. I know for a fact that this internet thing isn't a "I can't choose between you or the OW" circumstance. I believe he is really unhappy and was relying on me and the marriage to always keep him afloat. I'm now working on my stuff and boy, it's hard to say the least. My H was in therapy by himself and quit recently and said "whatever" to it all. He's making some terrible choices that are very hurtful to me. I will survive. Thanks for your post!
Llama

Update -Not much of one. H sent a picture of a waterfall from his trip that he's currently on. Said he hoped I was good and that he was thinking of me. He IM'd me this morning and we're currently just chatting chit/chat stuff. He said he had a horrible time whale watching and said it was a near death experience and he was sicker than a dog. He said "are you okay, i got a bad feeling the other day" I said "why" he said "are you or aren't you?" I said I was okay. He's now proceeding to tell me about the terrible whale watching thing. Had a good session with therapist yesterday. She gave me some referrals for other therapists for couples counseling. We'll see what happens when he returns. A part of me says he's going to come back saying "i want to work on us, let's forget everything and start fresh". His personality is very black/white all or nothing type. We'll see. I'm hanging in there!
Llama

llama, <blockquote>quote:<hr>A part of me says he's going to come back saying "I want to work on us, let's forget everything and start fresh". <hr></blockquote>I hope you don't think that will make everything better? The last thing you want is for you both to forget about all this. I remember thinking that way, but all it did was hide the trouble and I never got any happier. Now I remind myself of it everyday and ask myself what I can do to better my marriage. Your H needs to realize this. You need to think how what you can do this as well (I doubt you will ever forget this), it will make your marriage better. From what I have lived through and what I have read here, all "forgetting about it" does is load another bullet in the A gun. Now its loaded and ready to shoot. I had only 3 D-Days and the first 2 I tried to forget about it. I tried so damn hard to forget about it, I wanted everything just to go back to the way they where. Well DUH they where not good before, that's why I put myself in the A. I was hiding my pain when I should of been working on it WITH my W. Just a reminder the A is your H mistake not yours but the problems in your marriage are ½ yours.Now when your H comes back and if he is ready to work on your marriage, you need to talk to him about this and work on it together. I am sure you have heard this from me a hundred time, no LB! Does your husband know you come on MB? If he does tell him I would be happy to talk to him if he likes. I might be able to give him some hope, and your marriage needs that right now. He feels hopeless too believe it or not.

Thanks LHM -I know we can't just "forget about this" but I'm sure he'll want to even though deep down he knows that's not the answer either. I mentioned that I found a great website, but he wasn't interested. I don't think he's ready for any of this to be honest. He would recognize my posts right away, etc. and he'd probably really get on the defensive if he began reading my posts. He'd also probably flip if I mentioned that I'm communicating with someone who has been in his shoes, etc. Perhaps in time, but I need to feel him out first and see how couples therapy goes. His mom made a very good point to him before he left when he said he was just afraid I'd throw this affair up in his face in the future and he thought I'd always hang it over his head, etc. - she said something like "and you can promise you will never hold any of the stuff she (me) has done to hurt you over her head?" I think that made him think. He's more of a dirt thrower than me (not blaming, I do it too). I'm the one who always wants to talk about the problem and he's the one who always "stuffs" eat, avoids confrontation, etc. until 3 months after the fact and then lays it on me and blindsides me with stuff I didn't even know upset or hurt him. This has been a terrible cycle of our relationship. It's taken us years to do this crap and I know we're not going to heal or be fixed over night and that it will take time. Did your wife leave the relationship talk up to you at the time you were still in the fog? I'm really not talking about it with him unless he brings it up. I really appreciate you offering yourself to supporting my H if he wants it. I hope in time, he will be willing to see all of this. Until then, I'm hanging in there!!!!{{{LLama Hhugs}}}}}Thank you LHM!!!!! Thank your wife for me too!!!!!

Llama, just a thought here…. <blockquote>quote:<hr> I'm the one who always wants to talk about the problem and he's the one who always "stuffs" eat, avoids confrontation, etc. until 3 months after the fact and then lays it on me and blindsides me with stuff I didn't even know upset or hurt him.<hr></blockquote>Classic Mars/Venus syndrome. I too am an avoider, not so much to avoid the conflict, but because I am uncomfortable talking about 'chick-stuff' and to avoid the LB's that I know are a-coming whenever a bad situation is dealt with. Us guys are action oriented (that's why SF is always at the top of our list!) and you gals are more emotional oriented (why conversation and affection are your tops!). Guys don't want to talk a problem to death, we want to fix things NOW and gals want to talk about it before doing anything. As soon as you start analyzing stuff, we tune you out. It's a pattern we are all guilty of, someone needs to break the cycle.So, I'm guessing that you talk and talk and WH just sits there and listens and the more you talk, the more he feels like you are nagging him, right? Maybe try this, next time you talk about important relationship stuff, just tell WH how you feel, what you want, your solutions and leave it at that. Then let him mull it over for a while and then see what happens. You can always revisit the issue in a few days, and if he says "I don't know, whatever", then you take it upon yourself to do something about the problem and the solution. I'm guessing that after a few of these, he'll start to want to be a part of the solution, want to be the 'fixer'.

LoveHerStill-Thanks for your $0.02, I always appreciate hearing from the guys here. I'm making plans for my weekend - trying to stay as busy as I can. I find the more I do to occupy my time, the less time I think about all of this stuff. Trying to focus on yourself is challenging to say the least. I'm trying my best and I know from reading your threads, you are too! Thanks for your advice. Mars/Venus was one of the first books I read after D-day.

I had a good weekend! Had plans the entire time and got alot of needed rest. H returns from his trip today from OW's city - he asked me via chat about getting a counselor for us on Friday - I have several referrals from two trusted therapists. Had lunch with MIL (very close to) on Saturday. We didn't talk much about the R, Separation, re-building, etc. except she said she knows H loves me and believes he wants to work on it - that's about it. Mostly we just talked about our common interests like gardening, my SIL (who is pregnant), etc.I just read Lotsva's story again - what an inspiration. I've also been told to read some of Dr. Phil's books and noticed Lotva's mentioned him too. What book should I start with? Any suggestions?Llama Hhugs,
Llama[ June 10, 2002: Message edited by: llama ]

Well - he's still in the FOG!Don't know why I was thinking he would come back better. He called from the airport and will be here (in town) late tonight. Talking about getting out of his lease (hopes were up) then BOOM to get another apartment that is cheaper. Wants to quit the job - UGH!!!!That's all I can say. I'm okay. As SpaceCase says " "Plan for the worst, hope for the best, and hang on to your hats!"Llama

Don't lose the faith Llama. Remember, he will be the one who loses the most.
Tink happy thoughts!
Layli

He called last night - I only answered the phone because I thought it was my friend calling me right back. He was nice, but then came the fog talk. His mom wrote him a resignation letter for his job (I'm thinking he's going through a MID-midlife crisis, he's only 26) and read it to me. Says he knows how hard I've been working and that he's been pushing the envelope with me and doesn't know how much more it can be pushed. He wants to get out of his apartment and maybe move up east with some of his family up there. I don't try to figure him out anymore - I do wonder what he's so afraid of facing that he's running so fast. I think it's more than the A. He said he doesn't know what he wants and he didn't feel he was being fair with me (duh!). I said I love you and I want to work on our marriage. I also want you to be happy.When he started gettng too deep into relationship talk, I kindly said it was late, I'm tired, you're tired, etc. and he took that ok as well. Then my friend called. So they got an earful. Surprisingly, I feel okay. I'm hanging in there, I didn't cry, and although I'm saddened that he's deeper in the fog, it doesn't seem to be as painful. In the meantime, I'm all about ME. I know now that I get stronger with each passing day that I don't have any contact with him and I've got plans all week long. My support system is incredible and a night doesn't go by where I don't get at least 3-4 "how ya doing llama?" calls. So glad I found MB. Thanks to everyone who keeps posting for me. Hhanging Iin Tthere,
Llama [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

Well nothing new today except that I'm continuing to take care of me. I'm in that state where I don't even want to hear from my H nor call him (I rarely have since dday 2months ago.)Had dinner and good conversation with an old friend last night. It was nice. Have plans with another friend tonight - pizza and a movie. Does anyone (did anyone) feel that getting on in their own life made them really miss their WS less in the long run? Make sense? Like, I'm kind of liking being alone/by myself. Is that normal?Llama

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Does anyone (did anyone) feel that getting on in their own life made them really miss their WS less in the long run? Make sense? Like, I'm kind of liking being alone/by myself. Is that normal? <hr></blockquote>You're having an "AH-HAH!!!" moment! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Yes, that's normal. THat's why we say Plan A and PLan B are for YOU. You are finding strength and joy within yourself, and in the world around you. Youa re realizing that life can go on without your spouse. You are realizing that you are a good person, and you are becoming the best llama you can. You will be a blessing to your H when/if he wakes up, or to another Mr. LLama one day!Be careful though... don't let that love bank drain too low! Don't DWELL on the past, but remember your H as the loving man you knew him as. Sometimes we're the ones responsible for keeping the love bank balance in the positive... LONG enough to do an effective PLan A.butttt.... Good for you!

Thanks Faith1 - now I know that's an Ah Hah moment. Yes, I do feel much better about life with "me". I think I always said no matter what, I'll be ok - now I'm finally beginning to feel it.Thanks for your post and kind words!{{{{{Faith1}}}}}}Llama

Hi Llama,
Told you I'd drop in!I've been picking here and there at your thread, and I'll probably post something more intelligent later, but one thing did strike me so I thought I'd comment. It has to do with "processing" the affair.Somebody said in one of my threads that I'm the "poster boy" for unresolved affairs, and although I hate the thought of being that, I'm afraid I am to some extent an "expert" or at least the "educated sufferer" of that.My wife had a EA/PA about 14 years ago. When I discovered it, I "forced" her to end it, and we never really discussed it, or got counseling, never really spoke about it again. She felt she should have been able to end it "her way", and didn't want to discuss it either.Now, as we're processing her current EA, I've come to realize that that old A has affected us in many, many ways all these years. Although I never "threw it in her face", not even once, I realize now that it did change many things about what I felt for my W; my respect for her, my love. And subconsciously, she probably detected that, and now feels I always made her "feel small"; even though I never once said anything like that.The point is that this unprocessed affair has continued to live with us and haunt us, and to a certain extent contributed to creating the environment where the new A was possible, indeed probable. But we never knew it.I won't ramble any more; Llama; you must find the way to process the A. There can be no doubt that you have both done this, and have both found a way to live with it, and can move on. If you don't, and you can't forgive, and build a better R, it WILL come back to haunt you.So please; whatever you do, however it turns out, process the affair and its feelings for both of you.

I think you are doing a wonderful job Llama. Pick up that book, getting the love you want. I hope the fog lifts soon.
Hugs to Llama!!!!!
Layli
Read my second post when you get a chance [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

Hi Spacey and Layli -
Thanks for your posts. Spacey, I agree with you whole-heartedly. The A doesn't bother me as much as the dishonesty, lies, deception, secrets, etc.Here's the thing. I'm beginning to feel more independent and stronger every day. I'm also thinking about alot of stuff aside from this A. Other problems that we have/had. And there is much more to our problems than meeting each other's most important needs, communication and this A. My H has severe anxiety issues and recently went off meds. He has ADD and has a very bad temper. Blows a fuse at any small thing. He doesn't have close friend, grew up in an abusive home, etc. Are you getting the picture? I know every families has their problems, issues and dysfunction. I knew all of this before marrying him. He's quite younger than me and not very mature. (Ok, I'm not trying to blast him, just trying to paint the picture so you can see some of the other stuff aside from our relationship). His temper/anger reflects that similar to the cycle of abuse.
-the problem
-tension building
-honeymoon phaseIt's been hard for me to recognize because I've lived with this behavior for almost 5 year and in essence enabled it. But, I believe that although my H can get help and help himself - this is a part of his character. Does this make sense?I guess what I'm saying is - now that I've been on my own for two months and am slowly getting control of my own life, I'm beginning to see all of this other stuff and now it's all making me wonder. I know this site is for marriage building. It and you have all helped me tremendously. I'm just thinking alot about this whole thing and what I really want. What if the BS (with these circumstances other than the A) starts thinking they don't want the WS back? Is this part of the Ah Ha thing that Faith1 mentioned? Feedback please!
Llama Hhugs,
LLama

<blockquote>quote:<hr>The A doesn't bother me as much as the dishonesty, lies, deception, secrets, etc.<hr></blockquote>Absolutely; it is EXACTLY that which gets to all of us the worst. It is the feeling that those actions impart of not caring, of falsehood, of uncertainty that are the worst thing by far. At least to me they are. They leave the R empty of the feeling that they care for us and our feelings above all else. <blockquote>quote:<hr> What if the BS (with these circumstances other than the A) starts thinking they don't want the WS back? Is this part of the Ah Ha thing that Faith1 mentioned?
<hr></blockquote>It sure is an "Ah-ha" moment. It is likely that not only as we "detach" from our WS, grow stronger individually, and begin to "see" things that we perhaps did not see before, we may decide our WSs are not what we wanted/needed in the first place.Believe me, I have literally dozens of things going thru my mind that I have a very hard time believeing my W will EVER get, much less accept and implement, and I seriously question whether I could live with that. It's mostly the emotions and the romantic memories that keep us here, believeing that maybe, just maybe, something will snap, something will cause the "wake-up" from the fog, and the realization that they have just blown it and wake the desire to make serious changes.We've heard the stories of FWSs who say things like "I can't believe I did that!" or "I can't believe what I did to you!", so we all have some hope that this will happen. But it doesn't always happen, and when we've made ourselves better, and we've seen what we really need as humans and as marriage partners, we may well lose faith in our WSs ability to EVER reach that place. And in cases like mine, where the previous A left the scars it left, I just DO NOT see myself compromising on any of this, or at least less than others might.So yes, Llama, you may reach that point and decide it wasn't meant to be, or it can't ever be what you want/need.We HOPE not, but it's possible many of us WILL reach that conclusion.So; what's our book going to be about? Not WS, I hope! [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img][ June 13, 2002: Message edited by: Spacecase ]

Space -THANK YOU SO SO SO SO MUCH for your response. I know I am growing that is for sure. Saw my therapist today and she said the same thing. Alot of what I'm seeing (the good times for sure) is stuff (not all negative) since the inception of our relationship that can account for some of our dysfunction. Yes, the A hurts, I'm angry at times, all those feelings that come with not trusting, etc., but at the same time I've really been looking at the relationship and each of us as we are (true to ourselves) and asking myself "is this what i really want?" Deep down, I'm beginning to think I don't. I love H and care for him deeply, but I know I alone cannot make this better. I can only make myself better. And becoming better, I'm beginning to see things as they really were without the rose-colored glasses on. Something I have not done in all of this is really express how I feel about any of what's going on. How do you do that with your WW? I've been a great plan A'er and have really really listened to his complaints about me, been accountable for any hurt that I caused, etc. But, I haven't really begun to express myself. My therapist feels it's time to begin that and like your saying goes "expect the worse...hope for the best...and hold on to your hat!" Knowing my H and how he is (in the fog with temper) anything I say, he is going to react to and probably get mad.Knowing this ahead of time helps, but it doesn't change anything except how I react to his reactions.The book? Oh, I'm not sure - fiction I think, possibly about a relationship, but I don't know yet. I'm a writer by trade and all I do is write write write. I've always wanted to publish a book though I never thought of a fictional story. We'll see.Thanks again Space!
Llama

Hey Llama, we are so alike. I am a writer too. I have been scared to write while all of this goes on but I can see how it might be a great outlet for you. You are being so strong. I am so inspired. Sounds like you have the take care of you part down. Good for you. Keep it up. We are all here for you!
Hugs to Llama!!!!
Layli

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by llama:
Space -THANK YOU SO SO SO SO MUCH for your response. I know I am growing that is for sure. Saw my therapist today and she said the same thing. Alot of what I'm seeing (the good times for sure) is stuff (not all negative) since the inception of our relationship that can account for some of our dysfunction. Yes, the A hurts, I'm angry at times, all those feelings that come with not trusting, etc., but at the same time I've really been looking at the relationship and each of us as we are (true to ourselves) and asking myself "is this what i really want?" Deep down, I'm beginning to think I don't. I love H and care for him deeply, but I know I alone cannot make this better. I can only make myself better. And becoming better, I'm beginning to see things as they really were without the rose-colored glasses on. <hr></blockquote>Well, you're right. We all grow, not only thru this process but in general, with the passage of time...(can you tell I'm feeling old? With 2 teen-agers and a college-age son at home for the summer, it feels like it!)...we all change; we change our habits, likes and dislikes, styles, priorities, everything.And I think it's important to think about that. The reason I say it is that my W has sometimes said I'm not the person she married. And of course I'm not! Geez, it's been 20 yers! I was 22 when we married, a gazillion things have happened in our lives, people have come and gone, we've been rich, we've been broke, we lived in Colombia, we live in Houston, the kids,...there's practically NOTHING that is the same today as it was back then.And I think it's important not to wed oneself to that romantic image we may have had back then, and expect it to still be the same. As both of us mature and learn and change, we have to re-connect, we have to re-evaluate and change with each other...keep the interest, keep the spark, and it's just too easy to just say; "she's changed so much, it's not the same, I don't want her anymore!"So we have to weigh these things; what are the natural changes a person will have that I need to accomodate, and which are the changes that perhaps I cannot accomodate? For instance, a major change in morals or in how someone treats their family, or some changes like that we probably cannot live with. But other changes, like going from liking sci-fi movies to now liking european love stories...that we can live with.So I think we must also learn to separate; which is which, and which I can adjust to and which I can't. My point is that it's unrealistic to think that we both haven't changed completely since the fabulous frolicky days after our honeymoon to today...we have, and if we wed ourselves too closely to that "ideal" we perhaps had when we married, then nothing he can do will make your partner of today seem good. <blockquote>quote:<hr>Something I have not done in all of this is really express how I feel about any of what's going on. How do you do that with your WW? I've been a great plan A'er and have really really listened to his complaints about me, been accountable for any hurt that I caused, etc. But, I haven't really begun to express myself. My therapist feels it's time to begin that and like your saying goes "expect the worse...hope for the best...and hold on to your hat!" Knowing my H and how he is (in the fog with temper) anything I say, he is going to react to and probably get mad.Knowing this ahead of time helps, but it doesn't change anything except how I react to his reactions.<hr></blockquote>This is a tough one. My particular circumstances don't allow me to draw from experience, since communication with my W is virtually non-existent, as far as true R and M talks go. She still has not ended the A, and anything that even hints of the conversation going there or what I or she felt is still a no-no around her. So we have only superficially begun to talk about changes and feelings...the talk is more general about MB principles, talks with Steve, the ideas behind them, etc. We're just working on having her end the A, to see whare we can go from there. So perhaps others might be more helpful here than I can be.We do need to try to start changing our almost automated reactions, though. I'm working on that; not very successfully, I'm afraid, as she is still able to very easily draw mne into arguments I know I shouldn't have...but it's hard to change 10-15-20 year habits!

Space-
I agree whole heartedly to your last post. It is difficult to retrain ourselves to break out of old habits. The first book I read after d-day was Men are From Mars and noticed some of my stuff in John Gray's examples. That's when I really took a deep look at me - Llama. And, I mean it hit me like a ton of bricks. I saw stuff about me that really wasn't me at all and I didn't like it. Granted I have had to bite my tongue pretty hard since then, but I've made immediate changes in me for ME and H has noticed them. Regardless, I feel good about me. Keep in touch Space! Thank you!General Update:
Well yesterday H calls at work (where he knows I do not like to be contacted - continues testing me)and asks what I'm doing Saturday night. I said I'm supposed to do something with a friend but it's not set in stone, why? He asks me if I want to go to a wedding reception with him. Then said "no big deal, if you don't want to go, I understand." I told him I'd get back to him.Went to see therapist at 11:00 a.m. same day and we talk about it all and she finally says I need to start telling H how I feel, etc. (see above post).So the truth is, I don't want to go to a wedding reception with him - HELLO???? Then he calls later and asks if I want to go to the mall that night (yesterday) and I say that my sister in law's mom died and I have to go to the funeral parlor. He gets a total attitude and says he's gonna stop asking me to do anything because I always turn him down and he's trying. I assured him that these are legit things. He started going off, so we ended the conversation. Then I get this email:just give me my space for a week now.....i feel like if i was important enough for you, you would make time....just i like i made time to help you with cpu....and effort to call you and chat with you and include you....you are also sercrative on what you are doing...so fine..i will keep my mouth shut too

talk to you next thursday.....THEN I GET THE FOLLOWING EMAIL A FEW MINUTES LATER:you know i miss you and everytime i hang up mad WHY by being sercrative, have you asked me to DINNER NO
have you asked me to go to mall NO
have you called me in the middle of the day for no reason NO
i am not trying anymore.....you want to be friends you start a conversation then....UGH UGH UGH!!! I'm thinking to myself, "I'M not trying?"I wrote him this back:H,I don’t know what else to say to you except that I love you and I care about your feelings deeply. I appreciate your willingness to talk to me, ask me to do things and help with the computer. Last night just didn’t work out, that’s all that there is to it. I’m not being secretive about anything. You know how I feel about talking relationship talk at work and that I am limited to what I can talk about while working. I cannot help that I have plans tonight and that I don’t feel well. I’m sorry for that. I’m always open to doing something with you, it just hasn’t worked out.I don’t know that you miss me. Maybe you could tell me that sometime. I’m sorry that you are mad every time you hang up. I may not have asked you to dinner or go to the mall, but I have made a lot of effort. I got the concert information you wanted and you can’t go. I understand why you can’t go – because you have softball. I did research and let you know I found lots of counselors. You said you’d look into it all when you came back from OW's city. I may not call you during the day, but I do send you text messages just because and I do chat with you on IM when I am able. I’m sorry you don’t want to try anymore.I care deeply for you and how you’re feeling. I promise you that. I’ve been trying hard to be a good listener and be your friend through all of this. I’m doing the best I can. LlamaSO THAT'S THE UPDATE. He called last night before I went to the funeral parlor and asked me to find some important papers for him, thanked me, etc. And, he did call me on the cell phone and started saying he doesn't like it when I say I have plans and don't elaborate? I'm not trying to play games with him, but I don't want to get the 3rd degree of questions either. What do I do about this? I also don't want him to get the wrong idea if I go out with friends. It's really controlling behavior on his part - I think. This has been going on with us forever. It's like it's ok for him to run all around, talk about quitting his job, moving to another state, etc., but if I say I'm busy or have plans, or can't do something, I have to explain myself?I'm trying to set my boundaries and this is a biggie with us. And, as you can see from my previous posts, I'm starting to have major doubts about me staying married to him. For reasons WELL BEYOND the A and his recent behavior - I've been doing a lot of soul searching and will continue doing so until I know for sure.Llama Hhugs to everyone who has helped with with their posts and support!!!Llama

Llama,
All I can say is that what you're doing is having an effect. A good effect. You may be close to a situation where the changes you need may be something he's willing to seriously entertain.Don't give up! You're doing very well!

Hooray for Llama. You are so strong! I agree with space. I see changes. You aren't at his beck and call anymore and you continue to be loving and supportive.
Maybe he is panicking because the effects of him depleting your LB for him are starting to show.
What is this with them always wanting to have their cake and eat it too!?
I think you are a fabulous gal, staying strong in the face of his fog.
3 cheers for Llama!
Love ya,
Layli

Layli - You're a sweetheart. I've been keeping up with your posts, hang in there! Your constant support is uplifting - THANK YOU LAYLI!!!!Space - Thanks for your response! I know you're going through alot of "foggyness" too. Have a good weekend.I'll be back on Monday.Llama

You know. I used to like roller coasters. Lol. I waas really down and I went out with my friend and we had the best laugh. This might have been wrong but we acted out this whole, "I don't know why I am so shocked about him wanting to be with OW. Look at me and then look at her. Me no kids, good job, good personality. Her 4 kids , 3 different fathers what a catch." It was hilarious and a total tension breaker. I laughed so loud and the absurdity of it all hit me. Don't think I am horrible. I think it was the writer in us. I just needed a little humor. I am finding it goes a long way.
Hugs and love to you.
Keep it up chicky [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img]
Layli

Thanks Layli girl - another crazy friday night with H. I'll post more later. Just wanted to thank you for your post. I say stuff like that all the time to put things into perpective.Hugs,
Llama

***WEEKEND UPDATE***I feel like a television reporter, lol! Well Friday WH tried to call several times and because of how our conversations have been going, I have been anxious about taking them. AFter walking with my neighbor friend, he called about 10:15 p.m. and I answered (someone slap me!). Chit chat chit chat, I voice that I've had a LONG day, funeral, etc. and was pretty tired. We said goodbye and then the craziness started. He called and started "going off" cursing, etc. about me putting him second and not making any effort (hello?). Here's the thing. My H is the all or nothing / black or white kind of guy. When he's ready to do something, everyone else needs to drop what they're doing and do whatever with him. I've lived my life this way now for several years and this is how I DO NOT want to live anymore.AFter he became extremely disprectful, I politely told him I was hanging up. He called about 6x and left two mean voicemails. I called him back and said this was all so uneccessary, can't he just respect the fact that I'm tired and we can continue conversation (which wasn't anything deep or about relationship)another time when I was a bit more fresh/awake. I told him SAturday morning that I need some space. I'm feeling much better without him than with him in any way. (Is this normal?) I'm really feeling like I don't want him back? (Is that terrible?) I know I love him and care for him, but somehow it's not feeling like it's enough. We chatted on IM this morning for a bit. He is still SO angry and bitter, and admitting it. Now he says he wants to see our priest. I'm not sure what this is about, although I will set up a time with him so we can see him. His life is in a downward spiral. I don't really want any part of it. He's messing up at work and "going off" on people there. He's looking for whatever company will hire him so he can just resign and leave. He's racked up credit card debt. He's in an apartment he can't afford. All his choices. And somehow he's thinking I have it made because I'm still in the house. (Can you say I'm paying for everything, mortgage, insurance, etc. for a house with one person living in it on my salary?) "I have it made?" That is a joke. But you know what? "I'm going to make it!"I'm so proud of myself for not yelling at him, going off, cursing, whatever. No matter what happens, I will know that I'm the better person for it. No matter how much he blames, says mean stuff, etc., Funny thing is, I think one of the things that makes him so mad is that he's finally seeing what he wanted and he's not there for it. And, I think he's worried that he's losing me. Truth....he is. I want to move on with my life with ME - Llama. I want respectful relationships in my life. I want children. I want to continue living in our wonderful house (that he now hates, although he picked it out, neighborhood and all). I want to continue fulfilling my dream (which was OUR DREAM or so I thought).As I have said in previous posts, the A is just one thing in his life that is going on. I believe he is dealing with anxiety, depression, anger issues, etc. And, these are NOT all due to our marriage. They've been present in our entire relationship. They are things I accepted in the beginning that I just cannot accept now. I know this post probably reads like a downer, but I feel really good. I'm energetic. I'm busy. I'm doing stuff that I want to do - and have always wanted to do, but never did. And, I'm okay with ME - LLama. What's the line from that Helen Reddy song? "you can bend but never break me, cause it only serves to make me more determined to achieve my final goal and I'll come back even stronger, not a novice any longer cause you've deepened the conviction in my soul" or something like that. (Yes, it's from "I Am Woman")Anyone been here and done that? Faith1, WAT - when did you know? LlamaI

llama,
I saw this a while ago, but wanted to think for a lil bit.First, your feelings are a natural consequence of the separation, H's abusive behavior, and your individual growth.ok... here's my opinion... I think you handled things pretty well this weekend, but from your story, we can't tell your tone of voice, the whole conversation, etc. It's great to show strength, and it really does make some WS's *wonder* - or even *angry* - that we actually have a life of our own. But, be careful that your tone of voice is not an LB, and be careful about pushing him away. From what I'm reading, I think you did fine. So my little warnings are really just for you to think about. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Check your love bank. Steve Harley would ask you on every phone call, "How's your love bank?" If you need to Plan A little longer, which I THINK you need to do, becuase it seems that H is noticing changes, then you may need to do some things to protect your love bank balance. Pull out old pictures, cards, stroll down memory lane, etc. If your love bank drains completely, then recovery will be VERY difficult, if you get there. I believe your love bank is dangerously low.I think you need to be preparing for Plan B. Have you written your Plan B letter? Have you thought through the logistics? Writing the letter, and thinking seriously about it will HELP you sort out if you are ready or not.The basic criteria for Plan B-time, is love bank draining, AND A continuing (or abusive behavior). I also find it interesting that my XH is a very extreme person as well. Everything is all or nothing to him. Once he's done with something, he's done. If he's interested in something, he's all about it. This is one reason for his 100 mph move towards D. Now that the A is over, he is 100 mph being my friend. (kind of annoying, since i was so used to being without him! again - natural conesquence of him draining my love bank)So, thinka bout plan B soon. Your H may be like mine, and head straight back to YOU (100mph [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] ). SO if you can hold on to some remaining love, and avoid divorce, you may be surprised at the marriage you can rebuild.Don't lose hope. Keep the door open, k?

Thanks Faith!I needed to hear that. Yes, my love bank is low - extremely low right now. I don't think my tone is a LB, but I'm not sure. I'm not acting too aloof or anything. My "old" tone was a definite LB. Honestly, every time he's called, I should NOT have answered the phone because I was extremely tired. I think deep down, I'm questioning what I really want and I'm not sure I'm wanting him. I'm not sure what can happen to make me feel any better or more secure in our relationship.I'll post more later,
Llama

Hello llama,
Yes I stop in from time to time just to take a peek at who is posting what. I have mixed feelings about your update. I am very happy your starting to feel better but it does make me feel bad to hear your husband is becoming less a part of your life. Remember I am a FWS and if my wife gave up on me I don't what would of become of me or what I would of missed out on (a happy marriage). I know she is happy she didn't give up on me.Ask yourself this: Can I feel this way with my H in my life? I almost get the impression your starting to think your life is getting better because your H is gone. Are things going better because you made them better? If so why can't you and your H make things better together? Do you want things to go back to the way they where before this whole mess started? What can you do to feel good about yourself and have a great M? You don't have to answer the questions because I think I know them already (because you're here at MB). NO your feelings are not terrible. I can imagine feeling that way, you both have been through a lot the past few months. Do these feelings mean you should end your M? I don't think so. I say this because you still love him. Sounds to me like he loves you too. People have feelings like this, and once you learn this you can except it and take actions to deal with them.Your H needs help big time! If he is not happy your marriage will never be happy. I am going to guess he blames everything/everyone besides himself for his misery. I used to do this and it got me nowhere! Is he still in IC? Are you both in MC? I sure hope so.Your doing great with the no LB! See it does help to keep your cool and think things out before you jump in. If your husband can learn this I honestly believe you two will make it out of this together! Let me ask you a few more questions, these I would like you to answer for me if you would. It might help me help you some.Does your H know you want to work out your marriage?
Do you think he believes it?
Have you come to terms with your part of your marital problems?
If your still in MC how does that go?
Have you asked him to read surviving an affair?
Have you asked your husband to come on MB?Sorry my post is all over the place I am just having a super busy day. Hang in there! I will check in on you later.LHM[ June 17, 2002: Message edited by: Love_Her_Madly ]

Great questions LHM!

Thinking of you Llama. stay strong girly.
Love,
layli

LHM -I'm so glad you stopped in - I was hoping I'd hear from you. Your wisdom and guidance has meant alot to me.First to answer your questions: <blockquote>quote:<hr> Does your H know you want to work out your marriage?
Do you think he believes it?
Have you come to terms with your part of your marital problems?
If your still in MC how does that go?
Have you asked him to read surviving an affair?
Have you asked your husband to come on MB? <hr></blockquote>Since day 1 - I have told my H through conversation, email, and IM that I wanted to work on the marriage.I believe he does believe me, but he hasn't wanted to this whole time. He dropped out of IC after he returned from his first trip to OW city. The therapist (who he'd seen for over a year) made a comment about his new Rolex (yah - you read that right!). He got all bent out of shape (typical) and dropped her.I have come to terms with my part in our problems. Almost immediately in fact. Remember, I asked him to take the couch or another place to live until we got help PRIOR to discovering OW and internet affair. I found out about the A a few days later (he was on a trip with his dad) and then felt opposite and didn't want to lose him. Our problems are WAY MORE than this A. This A is small on our list of problems.We haven't been going to MC in over 8 months. Things (I thought) were much better. He continued to go. I started IC for me right after d-day and my therapy is going great.I read Surviving An Affair. My H won't read it. I'm not making an assumption here. He knows I read it, I told him about it. He has high anxiety and is a little ADD - reading books are NOT a part of his life. He bought Mars/Venus when we first separated saying he was going to read it and to no avail.I've told him about a website that I visit (MB) that has really helped me alot and that I felt would help us. He didn't bite at the bait and I've brought it up several times. At this point - I fear what he would do if he read my posts. He will only retain what he wants to and not look at everything. I have expressed to him my fear of his reactions and he is still in denial (always has been) about this. The pattern of his angry behavior is very similar to the pattern of abuse. He "goes off", then feels remorseful, honeymoon phase, then it happens again. It is because of all of this that I considered leaving my marriage prior to d-day. Then after d-day, I felt so bad, hurt, etc., that I didn't want to lose him. I'm now feeling that he's realizing he is losing me. I'm not sure what could happen for me to commit myself to making this work (sorry, have to be honest here). He is an unhappy person who needs to seek some professional help. He has relied on me to make him happy and in essence that has made me very unhappy. I know that we could work this out and be good again - but it will take two of us and he is NOWHERE near facing his demons and working hard on this. At this point, I want to be amicable with him so if we do divorce that it won't be a nightmare.I could write a book about this whole thing (as many of us can) but there are lots of facets I don't even mention here - like his terribly controlling abusive father who would LOVE to see me suffer. And I worry that H will rage and try to be a BIG jerk if we divorce and it's not HIS idea to do it. I know that sounds childish, but I am scared and I don't want to lose my home or security.My H has years of work ahead of him and that's when he is actually ready to work on him. I'm working on me and feel very good about it. My H does need to begin working on his stuff before we can even get to OUR stuff. I feel bad LHM about the state he is in. I want to pull him out of the quicksand, clean him up, etc., but I cannot do that this time. I've done that for years and I need to see that he wants to do it himselfYesterday I sent him an email expressing some of my feeling in a non-LB way. I asked for some time. His response was harsh - "you want space, then FINE! I don't want to communicate either!" etc. Very typical of him - always a reaction. This just wears me down and I'm done with being worn down.Honestly, I don't know what will happen. I told him that I would see the priest with him, but I swear he just said that because he wants to keep stringing me on. He won't mention seeing the priest again for months. I'm the best one at reading my H and I'd bet $100 that is what will happen. I'll check in later today. Thanks again for your support and feedback.Llama Hhugs,
Llama

Hello llama,
You said something that was interesting. <blockquote>quote:<hr> I feel bad LHM about the state he is in. I want to pull him out of the quicksand, clean him up, etc., but I cannot do that this time. I've done that for years and I need to see that he wants to do it himself.<hr></blockquote>I truly believe that we humans are creatures of habit. You say you have been picking him up, fixing his life, and carrying his load for years now. Do you want him to change his learned behavior in one day? If so I am sorry to say this will never happen. I am also gonna say your partially to blame for it....Let me tell you about someone I know. This married couple we know have been together for about 10 years. The W did everything for the family. She was in charge and she loved it. Of course the H loved it and enjoyed that his W would carry most of the family load. Ten years later she decides she want to go back to school and get her masters degree. Good for her. She now starts to think the house and family can still be run in the same manor as it was before she started school. But it's going to take the help of her H. Well to make this story a little shorter it didn't! She started to despise her H because of the lazy sloth he had become. It got pretty nasty. She asked my W for some advise. My W (the smartest one in my M) stepped back and took a look at what was going on. And explained to her how she was to blame for some of his behavior. So get this, she listens to what my W is saying and modifies her behavior and attitude towards her husband. Things are starting to work out for them as we speak. See she couldn't make her H do anything but she could change her behavior which effected the way her husband reacted. Now her H is willing to do more and is starting to change his ways...You can't make your husband go to IC (from what I read he needs) but you might be able to influence him to want IC. Think about it long and hard, I mean really really think about it. Not about how you can change him but how you can change you so it has an effect on him! Try things out and see what happens. If the results are good keep doing it if they are bad don't make the same mistake.I will check in on you later...

LHM -Thanks for your reply. First to clear up something: <blockquote>quote:<hr>I truly believe that we humans are creatures of habit. You say you have been picking him up, fixing his life, and carrying his load for years now. Do you want him to change his learned behavior in one day? If so I am sorry to say this will never happen. I am also gonna say your partially to blame for it....<hr></blockquote>I know we are creatures of habit. Something that my H has had his own life is "his way." Remember, there are alot of things he expects of everyone around him. It has been expected of me in the past to fix whatever problem he was having. I haven't been carrying his load for years. His learned behavior has been learned for his entire life. And, yes, I am partially to blame for it. Think of it in terms of the cycle of violence or abuse to better understand. The example you gave was great, but didn't fit what I meant earlier - my bad. I didn't explain the feeling and it was that - a feeling.My apologies for explaining that a bit further. Sometimes I type (think aloud) and not re-read - which I didn't in that case. All I was really trying to say was that my H has years of stuff (more than habits) that he's needing to face and doesn't want to. You're right - I cannot control that, nor do I want to. <blockquote>quote:<hr>You can't make your husband go to IC (from what I read he needs) but you might be able to influence him to want IC. Think about it long and hard, I mean really really think about it. Not about how you can change him but how you can change you so it has an effect on him! Try things out and see what happens. If the results are good keep doing it if they are bad don't make the same mistake. <hr></blockquote>I have been trying to be the best influence/person I know. I have seen the things I did NOT like about me and have been working hard on them. Yes, it's tough, but it seems to get easier every day. My H has even said that to me. And, WOW, I'm quickly learning what does and doesn't work with him. Very few DOES and lots and lots of DOESN'TS. It is indeed a learning experience. <blockquote>quote:<hr> I will check in on you later... <hr></blockquote>Thanks LHM! You are a good person! My best to your wife - please tell her hello for me! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Llama

llama,
Looks like you have things thought out. I didn't mean anything bad just wanted to state what it appears you already know. Your H has his faults and you seem to know this. Have you thought about the reasons you did married him? I know it helped my wife get through my A. I am under the impression everyone who comes to MB is looking to repair there marriage. Looking to make things better in their marriage. I do understand that some M do not work and there are many reason for people NOT to stay married (abusive behavior). I believe every person can change, and if they do, things can be repaired. Then again some things are not meant to be. I am also a firm believer that if your not happy with your life that there is no way your S can be happy with you. So I pray your husband finds his direction in the fog and starts to work on himself. It sounds like he is miserable inside. I know the feeling because I was there. I think you should continue doing what your doing. Keep working on yourself and hopefully he will come around and along for the ride. That's really what plan a and b are all about, making yourself a better person...Please let me know if I can help with anything.....

Thanks again LHM -I do think about the things I loved about my H when I married him. Unfortunately, many of those things started to diminish. But, you are right - why we all come to MB. And that plan A & B are really about me. I didn't really begin to see that until just a few weeks ago. I'm hangin in as best I can. Keep in touch!Llama

Hi LlamaI responded on the Divorcing thread! Hope you have a great night!

Sounds like your WH has withdrew a few too many love units. I think it is great that you are feeling encouraged about your future. I know it wasn't easy for you to get there.
Hang in there sweety.
Hugs and love,
Layli

Not much of an update. Haven't talked to WH since Monday. Appointment with therapist yesterday - she commented on how great I looked, sounded, etc. and even asked if I want to wait two weeks before coming back. I said I wasn't ready for that yet anyway. Hooking up with some old pals that I haven't gone out with in years - it's been fun. Going out with highschool girlfriend tomorrow night, maybe dinner and dancing - or my favorite...karaoke!Freelance work keeping me busy most of the weekend, but I'm planning on working on the backyard/landscaping, etc. I finally found a lawn guy to do that chore for me. I can't even get the lawn mower started, LOL!Feeling good and believing in ME!Weekend Hugs to Everyone!
Llama

Well - my H and I discussed divorce at length yesterday and today. He will be filing in the next few weeks. We are both okay with it. He doesn't want anything and wants everything to be amicable. It's very strange and I've been a bit emotional, but it seems overall to be a relief.I thank everyone who is here who have always been there to support me and I wish everyone the best in their own endeavors. If it's ok for me to post here for a while, that would be great. I'll be moving over to the D/D board soon, so please keep in touch.Llama Hhugs,
Llama