llama,
How are things going? Listen to what my wife had to say, she knows her stuff.

bump

LHM & FHO -<p>Thank you so much for your responses. Well, he's gone. I'm hurting today big time. I kept getting the feeling that he'd back out and be here at my office waiting for me or that he'd call this morning before he left - wishful thinking on my part, I guess.<p>We've had some decent conversations. Not alot of R talk, but respectful conversations. I went to the mall with him on Saturday night and we spent time together afterwards at an ice cream place. He held my hand, told me he loved me, hugged me, etc. He mentioned it would be nice for him to get text messages from me every once in a while and for me to pick up the cleaning every once in a while. I said okay, no problem, I can do that if that's what you want, etc. <p>He says he wants to try to work it out, but doesn't want to see a counselor. I said I want to try and work it out too, but I felt a counselor is really needed so we have a safe neutral place to share our feelings without fearing the other person will "go off" as in the past. I've been doing great on the no LB'ing, but he is not even close. He says he wants to know how I feel, but if I begin to express, he reacts and defends himself. So, I know he's not ready to hear any of it. <p>As far as the trip, he says it's NOT what I think and wishes I could trust him (in firm voice). Hello? How can he even question my trust for him? I just listened and said how much I appreciate his openness now, but I need time to heal and we both need to want to earn each other's trust back, etc. He took that ok. Overall, we had a good night, I of course, didn't want him to go back to his apartment, but he left, I cried. He said when he starts getting sad, that he starts getting angry and wanted to leave before he said something mean. He called me on his way back and said I could look for a therapist for us while he is gone.<p>Sunday morning he calls me and asks if I want to meet for breakfast - a place we've always gone to for almost 5 years. I said yes, and met him there about an hour later. It went ok. As we were leaving, he said "you probably don't want to come over to the apartment, I understand." then I said "I'd like to spend more time with you this morning, but I'm not sure about going back to your apartment, etc." He seemed ok with it, but not really. We left with a hug, kiss and "I love you". <p>Fifteen minutes later he called saying "we're going to be separated for four months more (he has 6 month lease), so you're going to have to come over here sometime. He started getting defensive with me, saying things like "i'm not ashamed of what I've done or doing" (ouch, that one really hurt - i know it's fog talk, but ouch!) but the conversation ended ok. I called him later with the suggestion that if either of us really have a need/want that maybe we could each preface the statement with "it would really mean alot to me if......(you came over to my apartment, etc.)" He seemed to like that idea okay. I didn't hear from him the rest of the day so at about 8pm I called him to tell him I wanted to say "hey" before he left. We chatted for a while and that was it. I told him that I'd be thinking about him every day while he was away and he said the same back. <p>So, now we have another week apart from each other. He has no more vacation left at his job. He wants to quit his job still. He seems so unhappy and depressed with his own life. Is it normal to start looking at all of this deeper into the relationship and wonder "is this really what I want?" I'm beginning to have those thoughts. I love him deeply, don't get me wrong. But, there seems to be so much more than our issues here and I know that I'm going to have to be the stronger person until he faces some of his stuff. I pray for the strength, but it is so very tiring. I'm just sad today. He won't be home until next Monday.<p>
When you have time to read and digest this, I'd love to hear from you both.<p>Hhugs,
Llama

llama,
Hi, just a thought. While he is gone this would be a good week to read "boundaries" or "love must be tough" I am reading boundaries we could compare notes.
2 things I want you to think about.
You say you have taken on the parent role sometimes. A lot of time it is so easy to be pushed into this (picking up his cleaning?)
But this makes it easy for him to feel not needed and not a "hero" when he is not taking responsibility for his own stuff.
I hope that made sense.
Also think about when you met, what did he love about you?
I will check on you later
L

Thanks Sad Princess -<p>About the cleaning - he feels I never want to get it (true statement) and wants me to do it sometimes. My parent role comes in more when making financial decisions, cleaning house, etc. I haven't asked him what he loves about me yet. He says he misses my companionship, friendship, etc. He's at the airport text messaging me now like "have a good week, talk to you monday" I said "are you on the plane?" he says "no, i misread ticket, i'm not leaving for another hour" I type back "I love you H" he types the same back, then i say "i thought maybe you changed your mind" then he says "that was not nice, sorry I gotta go" (I feel like I can't do/say anything right) I said "i'm sorry, I thought with the time change, maybe you had changed your plans" then he said "no problem, have a good week" I say "I love you H and I'm just a phone call away" he says "thank you". That was about it. <p>I've read Love Must Be Tough. Very similar to taking the plan B approach of MB. I got alot out of it, but I don't think this is the right approach for us right now. I don't know about the "boundaries" book. Who is it by?<p>Thanks,
Llama

llama,
First off good job on no LB! That's what you have to do. I am sorry he left today I know it's rough for you. <p>As far as you not going over to his apartment, did you explain to him why? From your post it sounds like he assumed you would not go. Figure out why he even wants you to go there (the real reason). If he knew you would say "no", he must have some idea of why you would say no. I bet he has the wrong idea. I am thinking you won't go because it would hurt, I bet he thinks you wont go because you are mad. You can see how that kind of thinking just feeds the fire. You both need to ask reasons instead of assuming. You need to tell him how much it hurts that he even lives there. You can also tell him 4 months is nothing compared to the rest of your lives together. Remember he left you. Ask him why he wants you to come to his apartment? I personally don't think you should go. Explain to him how it will make you feel. Then stick to your guns and don't go. Without love busting........ <p>I suggest you don't text message him while he is gone. If he does you, then you can answer but keep it short and neutral. He needs to realize, I mean honestly realize that he has made some bad decisions. He needs to figure out he is about to lose everything good in his life for a stupid [censored] fantasy. No matter how much you tell him this he needs to learn it for himself.<p>Here is something that helped me get threw some hard times. I would think about all the people I know who have been threw this. How I was not the only one who felt the pain of this madness. They made it out alive some better then others, some worse but they all made it. Life goes on and you need to remind yourself of this. As harsh as it sounds it will help you feel a little bit better. On the same note I would think about how I could make the outcome better for myself. That eventually turned into how I could make it better for my W and I. Things can get better and this will dull with time. <p>While he is gone you need to find a counselor. I mean it! If you want this to work out he needs to be helped. I was so lost without someone unbiased to help me figure it all out. <p>I will check in on you later, right now I am at work so it's hard to get into it more. Hang in there have hope and do something good for yourself this week. Make some plans do anything!!!!! You need a little mental vacation. Not to forget but to rest your mind for a bit.

LHM -<p>I will see my therapist this Thursday and will get some referrals from her about counselors that she recommends, etc. I have a feeling (hunch) that he's going to come back like everything is just honky dory and he can be ready to work on this marriage whenever he feels like it? I'm just really upset about this whole thing today. Three visits with each other in less than 5 weeks? I'm starting to feel really stupid and naive for believing anything he says. I hope and pray that something/anything will "hit" him this week while he is gone. <p>As far as the apt. thing goes, he knows I'm hurt and that's why I just don't want to go hang there - that and the fact that she was there for over a week - total BS in my opinion. She slept in his bed while he slept on the floor.<p>Originally, I asked him to take the couch or another residence while we were fighting in April - his disrespectful way of talking to me was at it's high. I didn't find out about the internet affair until AFTER I asked him. He had a friend he could have stayed with for free and chose to sign a 6 month lease, etc. after he returned. The trip he's on now was planned way back then around 4/14/02 or so. <p>Honestly, I just don't know what to believe anymore. I want to believe him. I just can't right now. I'm pretty upset today - first day feeling this upset in a while. I wish there was some bird of rational thinking that could tell me what the hell was going on. <p>I'm rambling and venting. Hope to hear from you and your wife again - your caring is giving me strength and hope!<p>Llama

llama,
Real quick before I head for home. Maybe this will give you some hope. Let me tell you about an Internet A, It's are all in his mind. He has this idea of what she is like, but it's not the truth. They is no way to look into some ones eyes, to hear the tone of their voice or see how they react to certain things. Right now he has built this image in his mind of how she really is. He may think she is perfect but the truth is nobody is. Maybe that's why he is still talking to you even after her visit to his apartment? On the internet people pretend to be what they want themselves to be. It easy because there is no work involved. You want to be some successful rich sugar momma you can be just type it. The same goes for peoples ethics and believes. They might talk a big game on the net but it's a lot different in real life. Your husband may find this out for himself this week. And when he does he will think about the way you are in real life! Let me know what you think. I will check in on you tonight...

llama,
just checking up to see how your doing...

LHM -<p>Thanks for your post. I don't have access to a computer in the evening right now because mine is on the fritz.<p>I understand what you are saying about the internet thing. I just never expected him to want to make it real that's all. And, I know it's not really real. It's still just all so overwhelming for me at times and I pray for the strength to get through this. <p>I got to work this morning and he was online from where he is. Here's how it went:<p>H: i am thinkign of you
H: i was kinda hoping you would be on this morning
llama: thank you - i'm thinking of you too
llama: me too
H: peace out
Llama: take care
H: i can e mail you some pics later if you want
llama: ok
H: remember you are my best freind
llama: remember how much i love you
H: i am happy and sad today, but i am taking care of me
llama: i'm glad you are taking care of you
H: thanks for the support
llama: you're welcome
H: are you ok
llama: i'm sad, but i'm ok
H: please dont be
llama: i'm trying but it's difficult - just being truthful
H: ok
H: talk to you soon ta ta
llama: take care<p>This was the extent of our conversation today. It hurt that he didn't say he loved me. And this "ta ta" thing is something new. He said to me yesterday in a text message something like "not goodbye, just ta ta" when I said goodbye. <p>I'm realling bumming about this trip. I talked to his mom briefly last night (she called to check on me). It's so weird to hear her talk like this is all "normal" - I just don't get it. She feels he just wants to "run away" and escape reality for now and spend time by himself. Maybe this is true, I still don't understand. And, i know trying to understand anything about any of this isn't worth alot of my energy as it changes from day to day. <p>Were you and your wife separated? Is your story here somewhere? You and your wife's feedback and support means so much to me and has been very helpful - I really really appreciate it.<p>Llama

llama,
Your husband is way deep into the fog. He tells you you're his best friend. I think he maybe saying this because he feels guilty for what he is doing. You might want to consider some plan B action. He needs to know your not ok with this. I know you love your H but maybe it's time to start protecting yourself from his hurtful actions. He is hurting you beyond belief and he thinks telling you that your his "best friend" makes it better. Does it? Tell him that. I am betting it only confuses/hurts you more. Your husband has been exposed to an OEA and he thinks real life should be like his online life. It's a fantasy so it's not gonna happen. When he talks to you via IM it's easy for him. He doesn't have to see your expressions, hear the tone in your voice and he can just leave when HE is ready. Have you considered not talking to him via IM. He can call you right? Why doesn't he do that?<p>As far as his mother goes, she knows her son has F^#$ed up. why do you think she is making excuses for him? Remember he is your H not hers, your relationship is one of peers not mother/son. Don't let her talk you into questioning the way you feel about what your H is doing to your marriage. She feels responsible for some of this, and she is! She was his one of his teachers in how to have a relationship. Think about it.....<p>I am so happy to hear your going to counseling on Thursday. Just keep in mind it's doesn't work overnight it takes time. Also this counselor might not be the right one for you. If you don't like him/her find a new one. My counselor is great for me but he might not be right for you. Get what I mean?<p>Now for my story, the short version.
Wife and I had problems in our marriage. No fighting, yelling, screaming or any of the stuff you might think. Things where just not working out for us. Not meeting each others EN. A lot of LB and neglect on both ends. We where like roommates not H and W. Instead of one of us talking about it and trying to work this stuff out I shut myself into my own little world. I found myself trying to meet my EN online. I started to question my marriage and my love for my wife. I thought she should know how to make me happy.<p>Well to shorten this story up <p>D-Day #1. She found an email, I denied everything. She installed spyware software on my computer a few weeks later. <p>D-Day#2 she had been watching my online fantasy via this software and kept it to herself. She was doing plan a and I didn't even know. I asked her what was wrong a bunch of times one night and it went into it from there. She told me she had found another email I sent to this other woman in my hotmail account. Told me she paid a hacker to get my password so I didn't know she had the software still installed. We worked out a deal that we would try to work things out and I wouldn't talk to this woman online. I didn't stop. It was an addition and I was still having little hope for our marriage.<p>D-Day#3 It's was a Monday, I came home from work to find her crying in the kitchen on the phone with her sister. She told me she knew everything and I got scared so I started running away. I went upstairs and started to pack my bags. My wife rather then LB my for what I had done did just the opposite and told me she loved ma and wanted to work it out. She asked me if I loved her I told her NO. She cried more I was so out of my mind... She told me if I ever wanted to work out our marriage that I could come home and we could try. She told me she still loved me even though I hurt her so much. Those words rang threw my head. I left for my parents house. It was so surreal. A few hours later I was laying in a bed at my parents house staring at the ceiling. I started to come out of the fog. I thought about how good our marriage use to be how much, we loved each other. How she was always there for me in the past. Then I started to miss those times so much. Then I started to think what I could of done to have prevented this from happening. Then I asked myself why I didn't do those things in the past. I called her that night. We talked on the phone for a week I came home the following Friday. The next months where hard but we made it. It took me a long time to get totally out of the fog. But I am happy again. We have GREAT days and we have really bad days. The bad days are getting farther and farther apart.<p>Hang in there all I can say if this work out you will be so happy you did. It's worth the effort 10 fold.

Thanks LHM-<p>I've beeing seeing a therapist (who I love) since the week following d-day. She's great and I've grown alot in the last 6 weeks or so.<p>I do think my husband feels guilty. And I do think the online chat isn't good for us. I will figure out a way without LB to tell him this - any thoughts? He seems so on edge right now - I know he's deep in the fog. He is very overly sensitive and I don't want to come across as I don't care, you know what I mean?<p>Geez, sometimes I don't even know what I mean, lol! I think he is testing me to see if I will create a safe environment for him to talk which I have been (and haven't in the past). So, my fear is that I will mess that up and he will see it as a LB.<p>I'll check back later today, I don't have access in the evening right now.<p>Llama

llama,
Sometimes you just need to tell him how you honestly feel. Say "H please don't take this the wrong way, I love you but I would rather you call me instead of IM me. It reminds me to much of your EOA. I am telling you this because I love you and I know you will try to understand how I feel." If he gets mad apologize that it makes him feel the way it does but you must go on without IMing him. I would not consider that LB. He will call you trust me...

Thanks LHM that makes sense and sounds nice. There is a fear in me about bringing up the OW because of that being a LB. He's so in denial about me worrying about him choosing her over me and says it's not that way, etc. It won't be real to me until I see some actions that back up his words, you know? I'm doing my part of having the actions to back up my words without LB'ing. I make some mistakes, but when I do, I apologize right away and hold myself accountable. I'm hoping that will help set a good example for H. REgardless I know it is helping me become a better person.<p>Llama

Maybe I am missing something, so please let me know if I am - I haven't read the entire thread...<p>What's so bad about the IM thing? It is one form of communication, which many BS's would love to have at least that. It might possibly be all WS can muster up at this point. Pressuring him to switch modes of communication might be an LB? Or an unnecessary demand??<p>Like I said, please help me if I missed the point of that.<p>Can you request phone calls IN ADDITION to the IM and text msgs? Letters are great too. Face-to-face communication is great too. I agree that the IM **exclusively** may end up being a crutch... <p>ok.. I'll be back.. going to read more and see what you're needing help with... be right back...

ok, I read... I may have missed a few things.<p>llama, I still see that the advice for you on the first page of this thread is still applicable.<p>Are you on Anti-D's? <p>I believe you are still trying to analyze his every little word and action. I think you need to stop focusing so much on him, and on yourself. Think of some things to keep yourself busy. Exercise? Friends? Find some favorite TV shows? Read? Pray? Write in a journal. I used to drive myself crazy trying to figure all this stuff out. I started writing it all down in a journal, and it's amazing how much that helps. I sometimes have imaginary conversations with my H (in my journal or to my steering wheel [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] ) to get my thoughts out, or to try to imagine what his answers would be.<p>Relax a little bit. I think you're doing fine on the communication. WHen he takes something the wrong way, just take a deep breath and apologize. I kick myself ALL the time - it seems I can NEVER say things the right way. That's ok. I apologize a LOT to people. My brain goes faster than my mouth sometimes, so things come out wrong. Part of that is the "assuming" that someone was talking about above. If you assume H meant something, you will often come out with the wrong response. Ask, if you are not sure what he means.<p>As far as going to visit him at his apartment? Sure! You're in PLan A, so you need to meet as many needs as possible. Take him some dinner. Bake him some cookies. Remind him you love him, and miss him, and what he is doing hurts you, but you understand that he is doing what he thinks is best right now. <p>Have you identified major LB's to him? Write them down, and really work on avoiding them. This will help you identify what he really needs most from you, instead of being so scared and cautious - and this being a doormat. You don't have to give up your whole identity trying to please him. But stretch and study the main things that will meet his EN's and avoid LB's.<p>So,in a nutshell, quit worrying so much about him, and focus on making your life livable for llama - without him, k? If he returns, if he commits, that's icing on the cake!! <p>Does that help? Hope something in there does... my heart goes out to you... your questions and concerns remind me of me this time last year.

Thanks Faith -
I guess we (BS's) know all this but have to be reminded of it again and again. Thank you! I do try to overanalyze his every move/word, etc. And, I do forget about me! Although, I am doing a darn good job at getting out and keeping myself busy. In addition to my full time work, I'm a freelance editor for a local magazine. And, that is keeping me really busy. <p>I think I'm at my best when we are separate and taking "breaks" from communication. Then we communicate, then I long to see him, then I see him and it's good, then I don't want to "not" see him. So perhaps this trip that is for HIM will be a good break for ME. <p>I think I am at least for now give myself a break with the IM thing, at least while he is away this week. It disrupts me at work and depending on the conversation, it can leave me drained emotionally. He needs to figure out his sh$t!!! Only he can do that. <p>Your post is what I need occasionally! Thank you!<p>{{{{{Llama Hhugs Tto Yyou}}}}}

Llama-<p>Well, you asked for it, so here I am. How on earth do you manage to get thes long thread going, I cant get them past 10-15 replies if I am lucky!<p>Not much advice to give. But, I have to say, what the hay are these internet A's all about. I mean, do you really know who that person is on the other end. WH could be having an A with another guy for all he knows, and then to invite them over, COME ON, WHAT GIVES. I have to deal with enough nuts in my daily life, let alone invite one over! Sorry, but these internet things really make my head spin. <p>Its only been 2 mos since DDay, an eternity for you, but only a short time to some of us AARP members here. I can guarantee that things will get better, slowly but surely they will. From what I have read here, I get the feeling that maybe there is more going on in WH's head than just the A, could there be a healthy dose of MLC going on as well?<p>Look over your posts and see what is working and what isnt (maybe keep a journal as well), then set some boundaries as to what you will accept from WH and what you wont. Make sure you do some serious self-evaluating as well and decide what areas you want to improve on (Plan A).<p>To me, its way to early to go to Plan B. Keep the Plan A going (for yourself, remember that) and set those boundaries and stick with them! These boundaries will keep the emotional turmoil at a minimum and allow you to stay in Plan A a lot longer.<p>Stand tall and be proud of all you have accomplished. Its tough, but you will get through this a much better person!
[img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Thanks LoveHerStill -<p>I'm much better today. I had only hoped that when my WH met the OW that she was a man, lol! All kidding aside. I'm in therapy with a great therapist and I'm working on boundaries and trying as best I can to keep my chin up. I'm busier now (weeknights and weekends) than I think I ever have been.<p>My H is pretty young for a MLC, but the MO is very similar. I know for a fact that this internet thing isn't a "I can't choose between you or the OW" circumstance. I believe he is really unhappy and was relying on me and the marriage to always keep him afloat. I'm now working on my stuff and boy, it's hard to say the least. My H was in therapy by himself and quit recently and said "whatever" to it all. He's making some terrible choices that are very hurtful to me. I will survive. <p>Thanks for your post!
Llama

Update -<p>Not much of one. H sent a picture of a waterfall from his trip that he's currently on. Said he hoped I was good and that he was thinking of me. He IM'd me this morning and we're currently just chatting chit/chat stuff. He said he had a horrible time whale watching and said it was a near death experience and he was sicker than a dog. He said "are you okay, i got a bad feeling the other day" I said "why" he said "are you or aren't you?" I said I was okay. He's now proceeding to tell me about the terrible whale watching thing. <p>Had a good session with therapist yesterday. She gave me some referrals for other therapists for couples counseling. We'll see what happens when he returns. A part of me says he's going to come back saying "i want to work on us, let's forget everything and start fresh". His personality is very black/white all or nothing type. <p>We'll see. I'm hanging in there!
Llama