llama,<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>A part of me says he's going to come back saying "I want to work on us, let's forget everything and start fresh". <hr></blockquote><p>I hope you don't think that will make everything better? The last thing you want is for you both to forget about all this. I remember thinking that way, but all it did was hide the trouble and I never got any happier. Now I remind myself of it everyday and ask myself what I can do to better my marriage. Your H needs to realize this. You need to think how what you can do this as well (I doubt you will ever forget this), it will make your marriage better. From what I have lived through and what I have read here, all "forgetting about it" does is load another bullet in the A gun. Now its loaded and ready to shoot. I had only 3 D-Days and the first 2 I tried to forget about it. I tried so damn hard to forget about it, I wanted everything just to go back to the way they where. Well DUH they where not good before, that's why I put myself in the A. I was hiding my pain when I should of been working on it WITH my W. Just a reminder the A is your H mistake not yours but the problems in your marriage are ½ yours.<p>Now when your H comes back and if he is ready to work on your marriage, you need to talk to him about this and work on it together. I am sure you have heard this from me a hundred time, no LB! Does your husband know you come on MB? If he does tell him I would be happy to talk to him if he likes. I might be able to give him some hope, and your marriage needs that right now. He feels hopeless too believe it or not.

Thanks LHM -<p>I know we can't just "forget about this" but I'm sure he'll want to even though deep down he knows that's not the answer either. <p>I mentioned that I found a great website, but he wasn't interested. I don't think he's ready for any of this to be honest. He would recognize my posts right away, etc. and he'd probably really get on the defensive if he began reading my posts. He'd also probably flip if I mentioned that I'm communicating with someone who has been in his shoes, etc. <p>Perhaps in time, but I need to feel him out first and see how couples therapy goes. His mom made a very good point to him before he left when he said he was just afraid I'd throw this affair up in his face in the future and he thought I'd always hang it over his head, etc. - she said something like "and you can promise you will never hold any of the stuff she (me) has done to hurt you over her head?" I think that made him think. He's more of a dirt thrower than me (not blaming, I do it too). <p>I'm the one who always wants to talk about the problem and he's the one who always "stuffs" eat, avoids confrontation, etc. until 3 months after the fact and then lays it on me and blindsides me with stuff I didn't even know upset or hurt him. This has been a terrible cycle of our relationship. It's taken us years to do this crap and I know we're not going to heal or be fixed over night and that it will take time. <p>Did your wife leave the relationship talk up to you at the time you were still in the fog? I'm really not talking about it with him unless he brings it up. <p>I really appreciate you offering yourself to supporting my H if he wants it. I hope in time, he will be willing to see all of this. Until then, I'm hanging in there!!!!<p>{{{LLama Hhugs}}}}}<p>Thank you LHM!!!!! Thank your wife for me too!!!!!

Llama, just a thought here….<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> I'm the one who always wants to talk about the problem and he's the one who always "stuffs" eat, avoids confrontation, etc. until 3 months after the fact and then lays it on me and blindsides me with stuff I didn't even know upset or hurt him.<hr></blockquote><p>Classic Mars/Venus syndrome. I too am an avoider, not so much to avoid the conflict, but because I am uncomfortable talking about 'chick-stuff' and to avoid the LB's that I know are a-coming whenever a bad situation is dealt with. Us guys are action oriented (that's why SF is always at the top of our list!) and you gals are more emotional oriented (why conversation and affection are your tops!). Guys don't want to talk a problem to death, we want to fix things NOW and gals want to talk about it before doing anything. As soon as you start analyzing stuff, we tune you out. It's a pattern we are all guilty of, someone needs to break the cycle.<p>So, I'm guessing that you talk and talk and WH just sits there and listens and the more you talk, the more he feels like you are nagging him, right? Maybe try this, next time you talk about important relationship stuff, just tell WH how you feel, what you want, your solutions and leave it at that. Then let him mull it over for a while and then see what happens. You can always revisit the issue in a few days, and if he says "I don't know, whatever", then you take it upon yourself to do something about the problem and the solution. I'm guessing that after a few of these, he'll start to want to be a part of the solution, want to be the 'fixer'.

LoveHerStill-<p>Thanks for your $0.02, I always appreciate hearing from the guys here. I'm making plans for my weekend - trying to stay as busy as I can. I find the more I do to occupy my time, the less time I think about all of this stuff. Trying to focus on yourself is challenging to say the least. I'm trying my best and I know from reading your threads, you are too! Thanks for your advice. Mars/Venus was one of the first books I read after D-day.

I had a good weekend! Had plans the entire time and got alot of needed rest. H returns from his trip today from OW's city - he asked me via chat about getting a counselor for us on Friday - I have several referrals from two trusted therapists. <p>Had lunch with MIL (very close to) on Saturday. We didn't talk much about the R, Separation, re-building, etc. except she said she knows H loves me and believes he wants to work on it - that's about it. Mostly we just talked about our common interests like gardening, my SIL (who is pregnant), etc.<p>I just read Lotsva's story again - what an inspiration. I've also been told to read some of Dr. Phil's books and noticed Lotva's mentioned him too. What book should I start with? Any suggestions?<p>Llama Hhugs,
Llama<p>[ June 10, 2002: Message edited by: llama ]</p>

Well - he's still in the FOG!<p>Don't know why I was thinking he would come back better. He called from the airport and will be here (in town) late tonight. <p>Talking about getting out of his lease (hopes were up) then BOOM to get another apartment that is cheaper. Wants to quit the job - UGH!!!!<p>That's all I can say. I'm okay. As SpaceCase says " "Plan for the worst, hope for the best, and hang on to your hats!"<p>Llama

Don't lose the faith Llama. Remember, he will be the one who loses the most.
Tink happy thoughts!
Layli

He called last night - I only answered the phone because I thought it was my friend calling me right back. He was nice, but then came the fog talk. His mom wrote him a resignation letter for his job (I'm thinking he's going through a MID-midlife crisis, he's only 26) and read it to me. Says he knows how hard I've been working and that he's been pushing the envelope with me and doesn't know how much more it can be pushed. He wants to get out of his apartment and maybe move up east with some of his family up there. I don't try to figure him out anymore - I do wonder what he's so afraid of facing that he's running so fast. I think it's more than the A. <p>He said he doesn't know what he wants and he didn't feel he was being fair with me (duh!). I said I love you and I want to work on our marriage. I also want you to be happy.<p>When he started gettng too deep into relationship talk, I kindly said it was late, I'm tired, you're tired, etc. and he took that ok as well. <p>Then my friend called. So they got an earful. Surprisingly, I feel okay. I'm hanging in there, I didn't cry, and although I'm saddened that he's deeper in the fog, it doesn't seem to be as painful. <p>In the meantime, I'm all about ME. I know now that I get stronger with each passing day that I don't have any contact with him and I've got plans all week long. My support system is incredible and a night doesn't go by where I don't get at least 3-4 "how ya doing llama?" calls. <p>So glad I found MB. Thanks to everyone who keeps posting for me. <p>Hhanging Iin Tthere,
Llama [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

Well nothing new today except that I'm continuing to take care of me. I'm in that state where I don't even want to hear from my H nor call him (I rarely have since dday 2months ago.)<p>Had dinner and good conversation with an old friend last night. It was nice. Have plans with another friend tonight - pizza and a movie. <p>Does anyone (did anyone) feel that getting on in their own life made them really miss their WS less in the long run? Make sense? Like, I'm kind of liking being alone/by myself. Is that normal?<p>Llama

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Does anyone (did anyone) feel that getting on in their own life made them really miss their WS less in the long run? Make sense? Like, I'm kind of liking being alone/by myself. Is that normal? <hr></blockquote><p>You're having an "AH-HAH!!!" moment! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Yes, that's normal. THat's why we say Plan A and PLan B are for YOU. You are finding strength and joy within yourself, and in the world around you. Youa re realizing that life can go on without your spouse. You are realizing that you are a good person, and you are becoming the best llama you can. You will be a blessing to your H when/if he wakes up, or to another Mr. LLama one day!<p>Be careful though... don't let that love bank drain too low! Don't DWELL on the past, but remember your H as the loving man you knew him as. Sometimes we're the ones responsible for keeping the love bank balance in the positive... LONG enough to do an effective PLan A.<p>butttt.... Good for you!

Thanks Faith1 - now I know that's an Ah Hah moment. Yes, I do feel much better about life with "me". I think I always said no matter what, I'll be ok - now I'm finally beginning to feel it.<p>Thanks for your post and kind words!<p>{{{{{Faith1}}}}}}<p>Llama

Hi Llama,
Told you I'd drop in!<p>I've been picking here and there at your thread, and I'll probably post something more intelligent later, but one thing did strike me so I thought I'd comment. It has to do with "processing" the affair.<p>Somebody said in one of my threads that I'm the "poster boy" for unresolved affairs, and although I hate the thought of being that, I'm afraid I am to some extent an "expert" or at least the "educated sufferer" of that.<p>My wife had a EA/PA about 14 years ago. When I discovered it, I "forced" her to end it, and we never really discussed it, or got counseling, never really spoke about it again. She felt she should have been able to end it "her way", and didn't want to discuss it either.<p>Now, as we're processing her current EA, I've come to realize that that old A has affected us in many, many ways all these years. Although I never "threw it in her face", not even once, I realize now that it did change many things about what I felt for my W; my respect for her, my love. And subconsciously, she probably detected that, and now feels I always made her "feel small"; even though I never once said anything like that.<p>The point is that this unprocessed affair has continued to live with us and haunt us, and to a certain extent contributed to creating the environment where the new A was possible, indeed probable. But we never knew it.<p>I won't ramble any more; Llama; you must find the way to process the A. There can be no doubt that you have both done this, and have both found a way to live with it, and can move on. If you don't, and you can't forgive, and build a better R, it WILL come back to haunt you.<p>So please; whatever you do, however it turns out, process the affair and its feelings for both of you.

I think you are doing a wonderful job Llama. Pick up that book, getting the love you want. I hope the fog lifts soon.
Hugs to Llama!!!!!
Layli
Read my second post when you get a chance [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

Hi Spacey and Layli -
Thanks for your posts. Spacey, I agree with you whole-heartedly. The A doesn't bother me as much as the dishonesty, lies, deception, secrets, etc.<p>Here's the thing. I'm beginning to feel more independent and stronger every day. I'm also thinking about alot of stuff aside from this A. Other problems that we have/had. <p>And there is much more to our problems than meeting each other's most important needs, communication and this A. My H has severe anxiety issues and recently went off meds. He has ADD and has a very bad temper. Blows a fuse at any small thing. He doesn't have close friend, grew up in an abusive home, etc. Are you getting the picture? I know every families has their problems, issues and dysfunction. I knew all of this before marrying him. He's quite younger than me and not very mature. (Ok, I'm not trying to blast him, just trying to paint the picture so you can see some of the other stuff aside from our relationship). <p>His temper/anger reflects that similar to the cycle of abuse.
-the problem
-tension building
-honeymoon phase<p>It's been hard for me to recognize because I've lived with this behavior for almost 5 year and in essence enabled it. But, I believe that although my H can get help and help himself - this is a part of his character. Does this make sense?<p>I guess what I'm saying is - now that I've been on my own for two months and am slowly getting control of my own life, I'm beginning to see all of this other stuff and now it's all making me wonder. I know this site is for marriage building. It and you have all helped me tremendously. <p>I'm just thinking alot about this whole thing and what I really want. What if the BS (with these circumstances other than the A) starts thinking they don't want the WS back? Is this part of the Ah Ha thing that Faith1 mentioned? <p>Feedback please!
Llama Hhugs,
LLama

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>The A doesn't bother me as much as the dishonesty, lies, deception, secrets, etc.<hr></blockquote><p>Absolutely; it is EXACTLY that which gets to all of us the worst. It is the feeling that those actions impart of not caring, of falsehood, of uncertainty that are the worst thing by far. At least to me they are. They leave the R empty of the feeling that they care for us and our feelings above all else.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> What if the BS (with these circumstances other than the A) starts thinking they don't want the WS back? Is this part of the Ah Ha thing that Faith1 mentioned?
<hr></blockquote><p>It sure is an "Ah-ha" moment. It is likely that not only as we "detach" from our WS, grow stronger individually, and begin to "see" things that we perhaps did not see before, we may decide our WSs are not what we wanted/needed in the first place.<p>Believe me, I have literally dozens of things going thru my mind that I have a very hard time believeing my W will EVER get, much less accept and implement, and I seriously question whether I could live with that. It's mostly the emotions and the romantic memories that keep us here, believeing that maybe, just maybe, something will snap, something will cause the "wake-up" from the fog, and the realization that they have just blown it and wake the desire to make serious changes.<p>We've heard the stories of FWSs who say things like "I can't believe I did that!" or "I can't believe what I did to you!", so we all have some hope that this will happen. But it doesn't always happen, and when we've made ourselves better, and we've seen what we really need as humans and as marriage partners, we may well lose faith in our WSs ability to EVER reach that place. And in cases like mine, where the previous A left the scars it left, I just DO NOT see myself compromising on any of this, or at least less than others might.<p>So yes, Llama, you may reach that point and decide it wasn't meant to be, or it can't ever be what you want/need.<p>We HOPE not, but it's possible many of us WILL reach that conclusion.<p>So; what's our book going to be about? Not WS, I hope! [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ June 13, 2002: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</p>

Space -<p>THANK YOU SO SO SO SO MUCH for your response. I know I am growing that is for sure. Saw my therapist today and she said the same thing. Alot of what I'm seeing (the good times for sure) is stuff (not all negative) since the inception of our relationship that can account for some of our dysfunction. Yes, the A hurts, I'm angry at times, all those feelings that come with not trusting, etc., but at the same time I've really been looking at the relationship and each of us as we are (true to ourselves) and asking myself "is this what i really want?" Deep down, I'm beginning to think I don't. I love H and care for him deeply, but I know I alone cannot make this better. I can only make myself better. And becoming better, I'm beginning to see things as they really were without the rose-colored glasses on. <p>Something I have not done in all of this is really express how I feel about any of what's going on. How do you do that with your WW? I've been a great plan A'er and have really really listened to his complaints about me, been accountable for any hurt that I caused, etc. But, I haven't really begun to express myself. My therapist feels it's time to begin that and like your saying goes "expect the worse...hope for the best...and hold on to your hat!" Knowing my H and how he is (in the fog with temper) anything I say, he is going to react to and probably get mad.<p>Knowing this ahead of time helps, but it doesn't change anything except how I react to his reactions.<p>The book? Oh, I'm not sure - fiction I think, possibly about a relationship, but I don't know yet. I'm a writer by trade and all I do is write write write. I've always wanted to publish a book though I never thought of a fictional story. We'll see.<p>Thanks again Space!
Llama

Hey Llama, we are so alike. I am a writer too. I have been scared to write while all of this goes on but I can see how it might be a great outlet for you. You are being so strong. I am so inspired. Sounds like you have the take care of you part down. Good for you. Keep it up. We are all here for you!
Hugs to Llama!!!!
Layli

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by llama:
<strong>Space -<p>THANK YOU SO SO SO SO MUCH for your response. I know I am growing that is for sure. Saw my therapist today and she said the same thing. Alot of what I'm seeing (the good times for sure) is stuff (not all negative) since the inception of our relationship that can account for some of our dysfunction. Yes, the A hurts, I'm angry at times, all those feelings that come with not trusting, etc., but at the same time I've really been looking at the relationship and each of us as we are (true to ourselves) and asking myself "is this what i really want?" Deep down, I'm beginning to think I don't. I love H and care for him deeply, but I know I alone cannot make this better. I can only make myself better. And becoming better, I'm beginning to see things as they really were without the rose-colored glasses on. </strong><hr></blockquote><p>Well, you're right. We all grow, not only thru this process but in general, with the passage of time...(can you tell I'm feeling old? With 2 teen-agers and a college-age son at home for the summer, it feels like it!)...we all change; we change our habits, likes and dislikes, styles, priorities, everything.<p>And I think it's important to think about that. The reason I say it is that my W has sometimes said I'm not the person she married. And of course I'm not! Geez, it's been 20 yers! I was 22 when we married, a gazillion things have happened in our lives, people have come and gone, we've been rich, we've been broke, we lived in Colombia, we live in Houston, the kids,...there's practically NOTHING that is the same today as it was back then.<p>And I think it's important not to wed oneself to that romantic image we may have had back then, and expect it to still be the same. As both of us mature and learn and change, we have to re-connect, we have to re-evaluate and change with each other...keep the interest, keep the spark, and it's just too easy to just say; "she's changed so much, it's not the same, I don't want her anymore!"<p>So we have to weigh these things; what are the natural changes a person will have that I need to accomodate, and which are the changes that perhaps I cannot accomodate? For instance, a major change in morals or in how someone treats their family, or some changes like that we probably cannot live with. But other changes, like going from liking sci-fi movies to now liking european love stories...that we can live with.<p>So I think we must also learn to separate; which is which, and which I can adjust to and which I can't. My point is that it's unrealistic to think that we both haven't changed completely since the fabulous frolicky days after our honeymoon to today...we have, and if we wed ourselves too closely to that "ideal" we perhaps had when we married, then nothing he can do will make your partner of today seem good.<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Something I have not done in all of this is really express how I feel about any of what's going on. How do you do that with your WW? I've been a great plan A'er and have really really listened to his complaints about me, been accountable for any hurt that I caused, etc. But, I haven't really begun to express myself. My therapist feels it's time to begin that and like your saying goes "expect the worse...hope for the best...and hold on to your hat!" Knowing my H and how he is (in the fog with temper) anything I say, he is going to react to and probably get mad.<p>Knowing this ahead of time helps, but it doesn't change anything except how I react to his reactions.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>This is a tough one. My particular circumstances don't allow me to draw from experience, since communication with my W is virtually non-existent, as far as true R and M talks go. She still has not ended the A, and anything that even hints of the conversation going there or what I or she felt is still a no-no around her. So we have only superficially begun to talk about changes and feelings...the talk is more general about MB principles, talks with Steve, the ideas behind them, etc. We're just working on having her end the A, to see whare we can go from there. So perhaps others might be more helpful here than I can be.<p>We do need to try to start changing our almost automated reactions, though. I'm working on that; not very successfully, I'm afraid, as she is still able to very easily draw mne into arguments I know I shouldn't have...but it's hard to change 10-15-20 year habits!

Space-
I agree whole heartedly to your last post. It is difficult to retrain ourselves to break out of old habits. The first book I read after d-day was Men are From Mars and noticed some of my stuff in John Gray's examples. That's when I really took a deep look at me - Llama. And, I mean it hit me like a ton of bricks. I saw stuff about me that really wasn't me at all and I didn't like it. Granted I have had to bite my tongue pretty hard since then, but I've made immediate changes in me for ME and H has noticed them. Regardless, I feel good about me. Keep in touch Space! Thank you!<p>General Update:
Well yesterday H calls at work (where he knows I do not like to be contacted - continues testing me)and asks what I'm doing Saturday night. I said I'm supposed to do something with a friend but it's not set in stone, why? He asks me if I want to go to a wedding reception with him. Then said "no big deal, if you don't want to go, I understand." I told him I'd get back to him.<p>Went to see therapist at 11:00 a.m. same day and we talk about it all and she finally says I need to start telling H how I feel, etc. (see above post).<p>So the truth is, I don't want to go to a wedding reception with him - HELLO???? Then he calls later and asks if I want to go to the mall that night (yesterday) and I say that my sister in law's mom died and I have to go to the funeral parlor. He gets a total attitude and says he's gonna stop asking me to do anything because I always turn him down and he's trying. I assured him that these are legit things. He started going off, so we ended the conversation. Then I get this email:<p>just give me my space for a week now.....i feel like if i was important enough for you, you would make time....just i like i made time to help you with cpu....and effort to call you and chat with you and include you....you are also sercrative on what you are doing...so fine..i will keep my mouth shut too

talk to you next thursday.....<p>THEN I GET THE FOLLOWING EMAIL A FEW MINUTES LATER:<p>you know i miss you and everytime i hang up mad WHY by being sercrative, have you asked me to DINNER NO
have you asked me to go to mall NO
have you called me in the middle of the day for no reason NO
i am not trying anymore.....you want to be friends you start a conversation then....<p>UGH UGH UGH!!! I'm thinking to myself, "I'M not trying?"<p>I wrote him this back:<p>H,<p>I don’t know what else to say to you except that I love you and I care about your feelings deeply. I appreciate your willingness to talk to me, ask me to do things and help with the computer. Last night just didn’t work out, that’s all that there is to it. <p>I’m not being secretive about anything. You know how I feel about talking relationship talk at work and that I am limited to what I can talk about while working. I cannot help that I have plans tonight and that I don’t feel well. I’m sorry for that. I’m always open to doing something with you, it just hasn’t worked out.<p>I don’t know that you miss me. Maybe you could tell me that sometime. I’m sorry that you are mad every time you hang up. I may not have asked you to dinner or go to the mall, but I have made a lot of effort. I got the concert information you wanted and you can’t go. I understand why you can’t go – because you have softball. I did research and let you know I found lots of counselors. You said you’d look into it all when you came back from OW's city. <p>I may not call you during the day, but I do send you text messages just because and I do chat with you on IM when I am able. I’m sorry you don’t want to try anymore.<p>I care deeply for you and how you’re feeling. I promise you that. I’ve been trying hard to be a good listener and be your friend through all of this. I’m doing the best I can. <p>Llama<p>SO THAT'S THE UPDATE. <p>He called last night before I went to the funeral parlor and asked me to find some important papers for him, thanked me, etc. And, he did call me on the cell phone and started saying he doesn't like it when I say I have plans and don't elaborate? <p>I'm not trying to play games with him, but I don't want to get the 3rd degree of questions either. What do I do about this? I also don't want him to get the wrong idea if I go out with friends. It's really controlling behavior on his part - I think. This has been going on with us forever. It's like it's ok for him to run all around, talk about quitting his job, moving to another state, etc., but if I say I'm busy or have plans, or can't do something, I have to explain myself?<p>I'm trying to set my boundaries and this is a biggie with us. And, as you can see from my previous posts, I'm starting to have major doubts about me staying married to him. For reasons WELL BEYOND the A and his recent behavior - I've been doing a lot of soul searching and will continue doing so until I know for sure.<p>Llama Hhugs to everyone who has helped with with their posts and support!!!<p>Llama

Llama,
All I can say is that what you're doing is having an effect. A good effect. You may be close to a situation where the changes you need may be something he's willing to seriously entertain.<p>Don't give up! You're doing very well!