please assess what I've been doing - Marriage Builders® Forums

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I haven't posted much lately because I have been reading as much as possible trying to get to my next step. Something has to change with my relationship with H, I think my efforts are making it easy for him to continue with this A. I need someone from the outside to look at things and give me some direction. But, I warn you, I am skeptical, hardheaded, and lonely; so this won't be easy for me.

Background: H (31) and I (30) have been married for 3 1/2 years. We don't have children yet. I applied for a new job in a different area so we could improve our standard of living. H was not thrilled but went along with it. He doesn't like the new town now and blames me for his unhappiness to the point of planning to leave me then having an A with a coworker as an escape. D-day was in September. H and I still live together.

Unmet needs according to H: sexual fulfillment (he's right), financial security (he wants me to make enough money so he can pursue more fun activities; our debt is high because we bought a new house and didn't have to pay for housing with my previous job)

Plan A: I started plan A in October after realizing that fighting about the A wasn't working (we didn't argue before D-day). I started in Plan A and did a great job. So great that when we were together it was just like there was no A, but then H would go off with OW and spend the night. It was all I could do to keep myself together and I did some crying to my H. Sometimes he cried too, other times he was annoyed. I contacted OW's H, but he is fed up with her (2nd A) and has filed for divorce. I told two of his four sisters (one admitted her own affair, the other tried to talk to H).

I have been in Plan A for over six months. I know from MB that Plan B is next but I have been able to go there. I am so happy when H is with me that the thought of having day after day without him fells awefull. I have been willing to deal with the affair so I wouldn't be alone. I have struggled so much with asking my H to leave and I just haven't been able to do it. I know what H is doing is wrong, but I can't abandon him when I vowed to be there through better or worse.

H says he doesn't know which way to go. I asked him to stay home everynight out of courtesy to me until he made his decision to stay or leave. He said that was reasonable, but hasn't followed through with it.

Since I knew I was stuck, I read Divorce Busting to learn more about 180's. I have been trying them more so lately. My newest within the last two weeks, is that when H comes back from being with OW all night, I don't question or accuse him. I have just been pleasant. We was taken back the first two times I did this and even asked "Why aren't you mad at me?" I thought this was a good sign and kept it up, especially since OW is always mad at him. Now I feel like I'm just making it too easy for him to stay out all night. However, it has also made me more happier, because I don't get upset about his where-abouts.

I started the month of April with the thought that I would use this month to mentally prepare to tell H to end the affair or leave. Every day I try to convince myself a little more. Somedays I think I could do it tomorrow and other days I think I won't ever do it.

Last night we didn't come home again. I was hurt and disappointed. I need direction and guidance. I'M STUCK!!! and scared and tired and lonely and everything else that comes with this.

Also, should I contact OW's parents about A and should I speak with his friends that already know asking for their assistance? Is it better to do this in writing or in person? When should I do it?

There is so much more on my mind, but I'll start with just this first. Please give your comments.

Sincerely,
firefly

FF73,

You say you are so happy when you two are together? Do you just block out of your mind what he's doing to you and the hurt he's causing you with the OW? I can't imagine being "happy" at any time when H is doing this, no matter how nice or sincere he is when you are together. Enlighten me.

i'm really feeling for you and i'm sure others will respond as well. i'm still new at this and learning but i think it's time for counseling. you didn't mention that this has happened and if it hasn't you need to do this asap! w/someone from MB if at all possible. i'm more inclined to think that if/when you counsel w/MB they would probably say you need to plan B but i am by no means and expert and can't really speak for them. they will be able to give you immediate professional feedback specific to your situation and that is always helpful. prayers to you.

Firefly,
I am 4 years in recovery.

I did a long Plan A, 18 months through our first 6 separations. The beginning of our 4th separation was a little like you are describing, H moved into the downstairs bedroom and we shared the house, but were "separated". I still cooked, did his laundry and he was never out later than 1 am...and after 2 weeks, he moved out and I had never been so glad for a separation!

I think you need to be very careful. You are in reality condoning and supporting his affair. And, in meeting his needs at home and allowing the OW to meet his needs wherever that is...he's actually going to be fairly content with the situation...call it being a cake-eater, call it fence-sitting, call it limbo. He's not likely to end this situation if you are accepting it.

Continue Plan A if you want, but he needs to have his own place if he doesn't come home.

Don't do his laundry, don't cook for him.

You've got to set up the natural consequences. Plan A is not being a doormat, no matter how happy his presence makes you feel, his actions are disrespectful of the one condition you set--that he comes home.

You can contact the OW if you want. Just remember she is not your friend, she is not on your side, she has NO loyalty or feelings for you. She doesn't care about your feelings.

Plus given that he doesn't come home, your H has probably told her that you guys are "about" divorced. It might be interesting to tell her that there is no divorce in action, other than that...what is it you want to communicate to her?

You can ask friends for assistance, but...many WS's friends are unwilling to step in. I wouldn't expect a lot...YOU aren't even willing to tell him staying out all night is wrong.

[ April 08, 2004, 06:57 PM: Message edited by: Lor (Lor) ]

Firefly -

I'm so glad to hear from you again. I know I told you to go to Plan B, and you probably should.

But I have changed so much by posting here. My WH has been out of the house since July. He has his own place and still with OW. But I had a change of heart when he was offered a retirement incentive.

I called him and told him that I wanted him to have a nice life, because I would always love him. So even though he had turned down the offer, he went in and asked if he could still retire. So now he is going to retire and is so happy.

So I am no one to give advice. But I hope you will keep posting here. It really does change you.

Well, we had a very nice 4-day weekend together. We went to church and visited family and cuddled. It was great. Time with me is time away from her.

But, then the other shoe fell. Late last night he went for drive and came in around 1:30 am to tell me that he was going to go stay with her for a few days while he tries to figure things out. I was devestated but I think I handled it well. I told him that I didn't beg him to marry me and I wouldn't beg him to stay now. I told him that I thought our marriage was built on a solid foundation that could be rebuilt into something new. He said the same things about not being about me, it was more about our financial situation and where we live. I said a prayer for us and our marriage aloud. He then took his bag and left saying he'd be back on Thursday for the appraisal of the house next to us and will either get the rest of his things or come back to me. I stayed up all night crying and praying.

I guess this is where I need to be strong. I have to not let him back until he agrees to end his relationship with her. I am scared and lonely. The thought of going home to an empty house after work hurts so much. I keep telling myself that this is for the better, because now he has made the first move and I just have to respond with requirements for reconcilliation. If I can't get a committment on Thursday, I suppose it will be time to plan B.

The hardest part is that he may never come back and I don't think I am prepared for that. I always thought that if something like this ever happened in my marriage, I would be so much stronger and concrete about ending the relationship. But things are different on the other side.

I keep telling myself that the end isn't here just yet, but I am impatient. How long do I wait? How do I make it through the waiting? Can I fall out of love for him because he left me and then not want him if he wants to return.

I am not angry. I am just HURT and DEVESTATED beyond belief. How could the man who promised to be with me forever have an affair as a way to deal with his unhappiness?

I am tired of playing games. I just our lives back. I want this to be over and our marriage restored. We were planning to get pregnant in September 04. Are my plans for having a family with him over? I don't want to be divorced...I don't believe in divorce! But I don't want to be alone forever!!

I cannot afford counseling so I look to the people here for guidance.

Firefly - Most do not come back in Plan A. It takes Plan B to wake them up. So get your letter ready for when you see him Thursday.

Also try to post more, it really does help you stay strong. I've been here since September, WH is still gone, but my days are good.

firefly, post, post, post until you are blue in the face, a lot of times it helps to reply to other posts as well. i think i figured out that you go from a "junior member" to a "member" when you've posted a certain number of times, i really don't know. i understand about the expense of counseling thing. have you talked to your dr. about getting on medication? not that this is what is needed but most of the time the SSRI anti-depressants don't really change your behavior per se but allow you to think and act more clearly. not sure how to explain it but a certain amount of worry goes away.

sorry i don't have much more to offer, i'm still new at this myself. read some of the other plan B letters and get an idea of what you can write and then come up with something yourself. post it here and ask for feedback. remember it's never too late and God is w/you if you let him, prayers to you.

I made it through another night without him. I went to bed at 9pm and got up at 7am so I wouldn't have think too much. I really thought he might call me, but I guess he is having too much fun with OW...out of sight, out of mind.

I am trying to psych myself up to follow through with plan B on Thursday after we speak. It is going to be hard, but maybe he needs this. I am just so afraid that he really won't come back.

I'm going to work on a plan B letter today and also write down what I want to say when I see him on Thursday.

I am still considering speaking with her parents. I guess it can't hurt. I've already spoken with OW's H and he only wished me luck because he was divorcing her.

I had hoped that by hanging on so long that OW would get annoyed and do something to end the relationship with H because she wants to get married to him. H says he doesn't want to get married to her, so I was hoping that their would be enough conflict to cause the end while I was still in Plan A.

I don't know that H could end a relationship with her if he wanted to. One time he was talking about how he had tried to end it with her and she was too persistant. H said that he had never broken up with anyone before and he didn't know how to go about it. I am worried that once she is with him all the time, she will be influencing him to get a divorce. Maybe I'm getting ahead of myself or maybe I'm just trying to weigh all the options.

firefly

you could also think of it that if she does influence or push him to D that would be an LB to him and we all know that withdrawals LU and if you're not LBing him all the better. I think of that sometimes (sometimes more than others) that that's what it might take for my H to end the A, is when the OW starts to LB my H for whatever reason. keep coming here and much prayers to you.

Firefly...

you can't make him do a thing....

You are in great danger of falling in to the trap of the insane and the irrational state of your marriage...becoming acceptable to you...

you accepting behaviors in your universe which are unacceptable to your core beliefs...time to take all focus and energy off of your husband and place it back on you...

time for boundaries
time for standing up what you believe in
time to pull yourself way out of the fog you are in...

here are your words....

I know what husband is doing is wrong but I can't abandon him when i vowed to be there for better or worse... ...
active affairs and disrepect do not fall in to the category of better or worse....
these are his direct choices and actions...and as long as you place no consequances on them in your universe...you remain part of his twisted triangle...

It also made me more happier...because i don't get upset about his where abouts...

so...is this acceptable for you to continue this path...
another week
another month
another summer
another year.....
sounds appealing to you does it....
or is is time for you to take control of what is your destiny and your life...

I don't know that husband could end the relationship with her if he wanted to...

dangerous fog talk on your part...ofcourse he could and can..he is not a victim here....don't give him victim status....

this is all about you firefly...all about defining you and what is good and noble in your universe....

If i were you I would not be HOME on thursday when he come over at first...

I would breeze in 15 minutes AFTER his arrival...looking marvelous and CONFUSED statind is it THURSDAY already?????

Then i would hand him your plan b letter..because it is here and now you decide if you are going to be part of their triange or not...

there is nothing you can do or not do to control him...
plan b though received as one is NOT an unltimatum...give him an ultimatum and it will fail...give him plan b...that says...I love you..
I want to be with you..
but I can not be with you if you are with someone else....
it is not telling him what he should do..
it is all about telling him what YOU are doing or not doing in this case.....

Lor's post is good..that your other option is to continue plan A...but i think it is coming to the point that it is doing more damage to YOU.....

ARK

What if you were to keep doing what you are doing, be patient a bit longer. It may be that your husband will discover in the next few days that the reality of living with this woman is not what he thought it would be. He might realise very quickly that it was a mistake.

Chances are he will want to be where he is loved and cared for.

Are you willing to move if that is what he wants? You could be thinking about this. (For me, I would move to the ends of the earth in a second if that was in the way of my relationhip with my husband.)

This sounds to me like a time to be patient, and not give him any ultimatums.

Maybe you can use this next few days to pray for him and for guidance.

When I read Shul's response I thought "Yeah, that is all the support I need to not go to plan B." How wonderful, someone to support me letting him do what he wants.

However, I have been contemplating what a plan B would mean all day. And maybe I'm not going to let myself off the hook with Shul's remark, even though I appreciate what she has to say greatly.

I do need to use this time to continue praying. Maybe I can tell him he has to pick but not cut off communication with him completely if he leaves and go to Plan B in one month.

I guess I really do know that I need to set some boundaries with him. Now is my chance to do it. I just don't know if a formal plan B is most appropriate just yet. Hey, I have come a long way in the last few days. Thoughts?

I just did something for me that I am happy about. I called today about becoming a weekend foster parent. If H goes then it would be nice to have someone to look forward to and share my love and time with.

firefly

I know it is frustrating, doing nothing and waiting for them to come to their senses.

But I can see some hope in this situation. He has said that he is confused, and that he is not sure how to break it off. Maybe he doesn't want to hurt her. At least he is thinking about it, yes?

It is so frustrating not to be able to control these things; we can influence their decision, but if we try to control them, they will generally pull away.

What if you said to him, "Yes, I know you are having a bad time. Take some time away, and maybe you can sort some of this out. I have some things I want to think about, too. "

Thanks, Shul. That is a good option to consider.

I keep going back and forth on this. One minute I want to go to Plan B, the next I don't. I called H this AM and asked him to call me today to confirm that the appaiser is still coming for the house next door tonight (H wants to purchase as rental property) and to ask about a bill that needs paid. H hasn't responded to my message and I'm getting worried that maybe he isn't coming over at all now. Perhaps he will sneak home today while I am at work and move out--my worst and continual fear! I've asked him not to do that and have enough consideration for me to notify me before he does such a thing.

Last night was the night H was going to a concert with OW. I put two and two together to realize why this was the week we wanted to "try things out with her." He sneeked home on Tuesday while I was work to get his dress clothes to wear. Last night I realized that the his dress clothes were missing and that those really were wet foot prints on the floor Tuesday evening. I made myself busy going to the gym and cleaning the basement.

I also called OW's H for the second time for an update. He is stalling the divorce because he doesn't want OW to try to get alimony which would mean he'd lose his house. But he still has no plans to take her back (her 2nd A). He also said that OW's work hours got cut back to 18 hrs per week. Since my H is unemployed, if they live together that could be a real financial strain (which is another reason to Plan B and financial support is one of H's top needs). I also got the number for OW's parents, who OW's H says are very nice people but not influential over their daughter. My only reason to call them would be to clarify that I really do want work on our M and H and I have been together through all of this.

I got H's wedding ring out of his car (it is parked at our house and won't run) and put it in my jewelry box. I just could not stand the thought of his wedding ring being abondoned outside for the last month. It seemed kind of symbolic to his thoughts on our marriage and committment. I feel better that it is safe now.

While in the car, I did snoop and found a letter from OW from March 3rd, indicating how they met and how this all started. It even said that H kissed OW first, contrary to what H told me. That was certainly a strike for H.

I guess my next update will be whether H shows up tonight or even contacts me.

firefly

Well, I spoke with H at 3:30 pm and he drove me home from work. I asked him if he had made a decision regarding staying or leaving and he said no. So I told him that he was free to leave if he wanted to. He could not use the excuse that he was staying to pay the bills (he is even unemployed) and that he could walk away from me and our finances right now and start a new life with OW. I told him that if he was going to stay it was of his own free will and he had to be with me 100%. I was tired of sharing him and it was time for all three of us to move on with our lives whatever that would mean for us. I said I love you and that we have a good foundation to build upon. I talked for about 10 minutes and God must have guided my words because at one point, I realized that I wasn't even thinking. The message was: you have to make a decision and this will have to hurt you.

H went to lie down and came back ten minutes later in a very good mood. We had dinner and the appraiser came. H then asked me to drive him to play basketball with his friends (we only have one car right now). I said I would but I would also pick him up because I was not going to be disrespected by him getting a ride to see OW. No objection from H.

We went to bed later that night and I took H's hand and said "All I can say is that I love you. You have to decide the rest. You have to get over one of us." H then said that what I had said earlier in the evening really got him thinking, but he didn't want to talk about it right now.

Then this morning H and I talked about some past mistakes each of us had made. We discussed that we couldn't change the past. I brought up that he has become very secretive and it is built a great wall between us. It was a good conversation, but he says he's still conflicted because he knows we are each meeting different needs and he said that he has to figure out which needs are most important to him. I said that I could fulfill all his needs if he'd let me.

Maybe we are still stuck in the same place, maybe H is one step closer to ending it. I feel better because I have made clear that he can go if he wants to and he seemed suprised by that. I took away his reasons to complain:

* You don't like our finances? You can leave and be free of them (let OW and her part time job take care of you) or you can stay and we can continue working together on them. You have a choice.

* You don't like where we live? You can leave and live somewhere else (in a worse town 45 minutes away where you know no one) or you can stay and we can make plans to move. You have a choice.

It is frustrating because H says that it really isn't about me, it is about our circumstances. Lack of SF made his fantasize about leaving, but he uses our circumstances to justify OW as a "distraction." Life won't be better with her, just a different set of problems.

I feel like I have put myself in a better place to tell H to leave now. I am going to give him a week or two and then I will make him decide if he hasn't already. Hopefully, I can maintain my strength to do that.

firefly

The weekend was ok. We had some good times together, but H was moody and kept wanting to go see OW. I diverted him from going out twice to see her and it worked out well. I just explained how his actions would really hurt me. I would not have done that in the past.

H also talked about his trying to decide. He said that OW's personality annoys him at times.

I'm not going to plan B just yet.

firefly

Hang in there. You've done well so far. Most A's die a natural death. You can make it safe to talk to you about his feelings. I'm sure OW will start LBing since she doesn't have the marriagebuilders plan and support.

How long has H been out of work?

H is a massage therapist and met OW at the spa where they worked together. She is a fitness and yoga instructor.

H quit at the spa in November and enrolled in real estate school. He got a part time job in December working as a security guard, but cut back his hours to one day a week because he doesn't like it. H has sent out a number of resumes for different things. However, his inability to find employment has depressed him, sending him to see OW as a distraction, and then spending less time looking for a job...endless cycle. He truly has too much free time.

firefly

I picked up H from work last night and as we drove home he was affectionately caressing my arm. I thought this is going well.

We get home and H suddenly says that he wants to leave tonight and since he said that the next time he leaves it will be for good, then he anticipated that this was final. I couldn't handle it. I talked and cried and held him. He went to the car and talked to OW on his cell phone. When he returned I talked and cried some more. Then he got ready to leave and so did I. H went outside and I followed stating that I was going with him. He said he was driving to meet OW and I could take the car home. We stopped once to talk about him really needing a separation for awhile and it not being about he doesn't love me. I then cried all the way to the destination. He called OW when we got there and she hadn't left her apartment and there was other chit chat. He said he'd talk to her in the morning. I convinced him to come home with me rather than spend the night in the parking lot as he wanted to do. H was silent the whole way home. During this whole thing I did act crazy...crying and telling him I didn't want him to do this. (I know that it was bad, but it was different from my usual passive nature.)

This morning I told H that I realized he still wanted to move out and I hoped that if he did he'd call me at work to say so. I also stated that I did not want OW to come into our home if she was helping him get his things. He agreed to it all and said that "after what happened last night" (meaning with me or OW?) that he wasn't so sure he wanted to leave. (It was really wierd that she didn't meet him--is this God at work.)

I prayed for God to give me strength and I actually have this strange sense of peace right now that I will be ok if he does leave. Feeling this way is new to me and just hope it lasts.

I guess I'll wait and see what comes next.
-firefly

firefly...

I sat on this post yesterday....

It is unbelievable on some accounts....

My question is regardless of his actions...
what are YOUR boundaries...

the issue of you driving him to leave you for OW...is mind boggling...
and my jury is still out whether it's really a smart thing of you do have done...OR if it is enabling...and codonement of his behavior....

how are you two today...
what plan are you in...

ARK

Ark:

Thanks for your response. I was beginning to think I was just writing to myself.

I need some direction because I am starting to feel like I am going in circles.

1. I did a great plan A for 6 months. My H noticed changes in me and was happy to be around me, but he wouldn't end the affair. Plan A became too good and too easy on him. I felt like I wasn't holding him accountable just showing unconditional love. I very rarely LB'd. I do think it is enabling, but I couldn't bring myself to Plan B. I was hoping OW would get annoyed with him not wanting to leave me and she would end the R. We came close, but it didn't happen.

2. I think I am on the verge of Plan B. I did not want to ask my H to leave to begin it. I thought it would be better for him to leave first then start in B. But I do have doubts of going N/C with him. I worry that he'll forget about me.

3. I am in limbo now trying not to fight him leaving because I know that something has to change so we can see what will happen next. I am very afraid of being lonely, of never getting to have children, of never finding someone else to love me. I never planned on getting divorced and I don't know how to deal with the possibility.

4. I think this would be easier on me if my H wasn't nice to me (other than A time away with OW), didn't say he loved me, or didn't act in a caring way. We had a good relationship and we still do during all of this. I feel very conflicted. Sometimes when we have been together, I have thought if I was in Plan B right now this experience/memory would not take place and I don't to live without him. I feel like I need to wait through the bad times so we'll get to have more good times.

5. I don't know where my boundaries should be right now. I was so good at Plan A that I am having a hard time putting consequences in place now. I got so good at being at suppressing my own relationship needs that it is difficult to assert myself now. Going to plan B means that I have to come to terms that our relationship has a strong possiblitly of being over. I am not dealing with that well.

6. I didn't drive H to meet OW. When he got in the car to leave, I got in the passenger seat to prevent him from leaving. Instead he drove off with me in the car. However, if I hadn't gone after him I don't think he would have even taken the car. He'd probably have hitch-hiked like he has done several other times since his car broke down. I just felt that if I let him walk out the door again to leave without doing something drastic then I wasn't standing up for our M. That night I let all of my hurt and frustration flood out at him. I held him and cried so hard. I felt helpless.

H wasn't there when I got home from work and he didn't come home all night. However, he hasn't taken his belongings. I am trying not to destroy all the good things I've done in A by acting crazy now.

Any thoughts?
firefly

firefly..

we all have to find some peace in this life..by balancing what it is we want and what it is we have...

you speak well of what you want...and none of it is wrong....or even unrealistic....

But to get what we want...can sometime lead us down paths that while on the outside look and appear normal or right.....the reality and depth to what we have is greatly lacking....

Betrayed spouses can get so lost in the pain...that they themselves become subject to a fog....

WS are masters at changing the definitions of words to justify their actions....
BUT things become really scary when the Betrayed also begin to change definitions in an attempt to have things they desire.....

There is nothing you do or can do to MAKE you husband chooose....infact he has been choosing all along...and choice is to bring great pain and disrepect to people....you and the OW...all in the new changed definition of his use of the word "love"

Regardless of what he does, says, or is...
YOU alone must find the strength to define what YOUR marriage means to you....and then find the path that lives those beliefs in actions....

Your momentarily loss of control or show of emotions...or even complete break down...are not incidences in enough of themselves to MAKE him do anything....

he will do what he chooses period...
the choice is what yours in what you allow to exist in your world...

did not want to ask my H to leave to begin it. I thought it would be better for him to leave first then start in B.

all this is, is protection from the reality of his actions and choices....

I worry that he'll forget about me.

that is an unfounded thought....don't hold on to it...OFCOURSE he won't forget you...but right now he doesn't have to give you any thought at all...
he knows where you are
he knows what you emotional state is..
he knows you are pining and ready to take him back no matter what....

didn't say he loved me, or didn't act in a caring way.

people that speak words of love...but continually act in a unloving way...
love in action if nothing else...is CONSISTANT...in action....
to me that is an almost perfect definition of the word love....

his actions are not loving they are hurtful to many people ....

Going to plan B means that I have to come to terms that our relationship has a strong possiblitly of being over.

this is your choice...but I will tell you that I believe that we have more value in our selves as children of GOD to believe in our selves more than just accepting and settling for reflections of someones warped definition of a relationship...

you are coming to the point of deciding that being part of a triange is less scary that being true to your own values....

that is a slippery hill you are standing on....

I just felt that if I let him walk out the door again to leave without doing something drastic then I wasn't standing up for our M.

for six months you have done nothing but stand up for this marraige...when will it be his turn..
why should he take a turn when you keep doing it...

firefly...the removal from his chaos that you fear so much in my opinion is way way way way less scary then continual dragging down of yourself into his nightmare....

read the lighthouse post...not because I "wrote" it...but because I believe you believe you husband is rational and he is anything but that....

you are living my worst nightmare...more so than any plan b,c,d,e,or f....

find yourself first...before you look to find your husband...

ARK

F, I see myself in you. Ark offered very good advice. It is very hard to go to Plan B. But as the time moving along, i am leaning more toward it. Orchid told me that only yourself know when it is ripe for it. My heart goes out to you. Pray to GOD and get yourself ready.

bumping and wondering how you are firefly....

ark

Thank you Ark and LNH for your replies. Ark- your advice was good. I just feel so sad, disappointed, and angry.

I confronted H on Saturday about spending our money on OW. It angers me that he would do that and especially since he is complaining that we don't have enough money. I think that putting my paycheck into a private account might be better. Then he can try to live off his $100 per week pay check.

He didn't come home last night. I have been feeling really used these last few days as I have reorganized my schedule to take H to and from work (he got a job as a waiter 2 days a week).

I am still feeling so lonely. I have no friends or family in the area. H is it. I almost went stir crazy being at home alone again. I guess I need to tell him to leave and go to Plan B, but we all know that I'm all talk when it comes to that.

H says that OW really pushes his buttons so he isn't sure if it would work with her. Yet, he really enjoys the "passion". I guess in Plan B, I have a greater likelihood of the passion wearing thin and her pushing his buttons. I am just really afraid.

I thought I was stronger than this. But all I have ever wanted was for someone to love me. Then I had my dream man. Now I've lost him. Now I'm back to being lonely again. Uuuggghhh!

I hate my life right now.

firefly...
there is no way to skirt the issue that so much of this is your choice....

quit confronting and power struggling...that will never ever work....

please try making some goals for yourself...
summer is coming and lots of lots of things are going on in the community...
you need to find something...

you don't have friends...dammit go make some...firefly....what else can people tell you to do....

you cling to the one person who is outrageously disrespectful to you....
how sane is that??

join something that challenges or interests you...

think of things that you never thought you'd do..

how's your golf swing....?
what about art lesson...nothing like throwing paint on canvas...
or boxing... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

if you are feeling used it is because you let yourself be used...

odn't leave him if you are not ready...
but minimally pull some severe 180's on him..

you are exactly where he wants you..
doing exactly what he wants...

ARK

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ark^^:

there is no way to skirt the issue that so much of this is your choice.... <hr /></blockquote>You mean because my choice is to go to Plan B, but I haven't? How else is this my choice? Should I just sit back and let it happen?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ark^^:

quit confronting and power struggling...that will never ever work.... <hr /></blockquote>I don't understand about confronting and power struggling. What could I have done better?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ark^^:

you cling to the one person who is outrageously disrespectful to you....
how sane is that?? <hr /></blockquote>I guess that goes to setting appropriate boundaries for how I want to be treated.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ark^^:

odn't leave him if you are not ready...
but minimally pull some severe 180's on him..
you are exactly where he wants you..
doing exactly what he wants... <hr /></blockquote>I just don't know what to do differently. I am tired of playing this game.

Thank you for your help Ark. I just need someone to reflect some of this back to me. I get so caught up that sometimes I just can't look at this objectively.

firefly

firefly..

it is your CHOICE not to have friends...
the way you have friends is you MAKE them..

You get yourself out there and do something that involves you with the world..

what about habitat for humanity...talk about getting involved with something that spans all walks of life...and exposes you to new experiences...

you don't have kids YET...so why in GODS name are you sitting home.....

and talking to him about money spent on the OW>..is insane is it not...
he will just defend that action...
he will just deny that action...

you are not a victim in this unless you let yourself be one...
you wait for him to make a move
a choice
a decision...

and he doesn't...
he strings you along
dangles carrotts in front of you and the OW>..
and you let him....
cake eater extroidaniarre...

no consequances
no limits
no boundaries...

and you are in the fog believing SOMETHING you do or don't do will be the cause of him leaving YOU....
so you accept him with you on the most pitiful terms....

even plan A is not accepting insane things....

even plan a while meeting needs has boundaries...

ARK

Ok so how do I set boundaries if I am not supposed to confront him with the things he is doing? Just give the ultimatum? I don't understand this.

I thought I was setting boundaries by confronting him about the money he spent on OW. If I didn't say anything he would keep on doing it. Do I just move the money and not say anything?

I am probably frustrating you. But your advice is very helpful. I hope you will be patient enough to help clarify my behavior some more.

firefly

firefly...

though I can off as being tough...please know that is not my intention....

tell me realistically if confronting him over the money issue has really changed anything...

If it did then that's great..but what did he really say about it...

deny?
justify?
rationalize?

agree to quit?

Or did you two just get bogged down in some verbal back and forth ....

boundaries have nothing to do with setting ultimatums...
you have every right to move your funds that he is spending on her...and if/when he asks you just say without disrespect...

"dear I thought about it and I decided that I don't want the OW spending my money...so I took care of that...."

here read this...
this is just one of many reasons to love ZORWEB

The major mistakes I see in Plan A are:

1) The BS doing nothing to interfere or attempt to break up the affair in acceptable ways.

2) Plan A’ing for too long, to the point that it becomes a lifestyle with great payoff for the WS and little for the BS.

3) Tip toeing around the WS by not telling them how the affair is hurting the BS. Basically acting as though the BS is afraid to upset the WS in any matter. This can lead to great emotional abuse of the BS.

4) The BS does not do Plan A for the WS or for themselves. It is done to break up the affair and begin marital recovery.

5) Totally misunderstanding what is and what is not a love buster and thereby never setting proper boundaries.

While becoming a better, more patient, more loving spouse can be a side affect of plan A, that is not it’s purpose. Plan A is a strategy to separate the spouse from the lover. (Or perhaps to pull a spouse out of deep withdrawal, but that's not your issue right now.) Nothing more, nothing less. Plan A will not save or restore your marriage. It is simply a tool to show your spouse that you recognize the contribution you've made to the deterioration of your M, and that you are willing, able, and determined to change those things.

Plan A is also about meeting needs as much as you feel you can. If you can make love with your H and not go away angry and resentful... go for it!! But if not, then Be pleasant, courteous, thoughtful, respectful. No demands, no disrespect, no losing your temper, no dishonesty, and no doing things that annoy or offend your spouse. (annoying behavior does have a qualifier when there is an A, and we will talk about that too.) Plan A is not about being perfect, being a doormat, or being a perfect doormat!

Plan A can be done in a letter if that is all you can muster. Plan A should have a deadline, as it's not an indefinite lifestyle choice. Most women cannot do Plan A as long as men. Some cannot even do it for a day, the pain of knowing their H is with OW is too great. Most women plan A for about 2-3 weeks, most men for about 6 months. Plan A is not a life style.

When it is said that the BS should do nothing to break up the affair, it’s a bit of a misleading statement. Plan A and Plan B are attempts to break up the affair. Acceptable and unacceptable ways to break up an affair.

It is unacceptable to try breaking up the affair using tactics such as threatening or using violence, stalking either the WS or the OP.

Acceptable ways to put pressure on the affair in Plan A/B:

1) Plan A and then if necessary Plan B.
2) Tell everyone: your parents, his parents, your religious leader, your other loved ones and close friends. Ask for their support in ending the A and saving your marriage.

3) Tell the WS that they are hurting you (the BS) every time there is contact. Do not give the WS the impression that you can get by.

4) Tell the WS that they are offending you grievously, that you are hurt beyond belief and that you are in pain. All of this helps break the shroud of secrecy and protection around the affair. It puts pressure on the affair.

5) Confront the OP. Tell OP that you love your WS and that you want your marriage to survive. Tell OP that he/she is contributing to the destruction of your home and your family. Beyond this do not contact the OP. Do not set up a relationship with them. They are incidental to the problems in your marriage. Given time the affair will almost always end whether or not you and you WS remain together. Affairs are based on fantasy. Tell the OP’s spouse.

6) Tell your children. Yes... tell them. They already know, so give them the gift of honesty.

7) Now, in the interim, there are things you can do. Confront the OW.

8) If your spouse is in the military talk to the Chaplin, their commander, family support and anyone else you can to get support. Their commander can put a lot of pressure on them, change their assignment to interfere with the affair, and so forth. Criminal charges can be filed. And so forth.

This will make the WS angry. The Policy of Joint Agreement does not apply. The marriage has already been breached. Telling is a way of stopping the bleeding so to speak. A way to end the A, to pick of the pieces of the destruction he is wreaking.

Affairs do not survive in the light of day. Doing everything you can to end it is encouraged. Once again, this is against every instinct we have, but it works.

Affairs do not last long when the OP is meeting limited needs and the WS is just having a wonderful time having their cake and eating it too. All the while the BS is.

Plan B is risky. At first it will certainly push the WS into the arms of the lover. But almost all affairs die a natural death. And that is hastened by being exposed to the light of day. Affairs exist and thrive only in secret and in fantasy. Once the harsh realities of life... kids, schedules, finances, laundry (!!) intrude, they lose their appeal.

Soon the arguments set in, withdrawals to the LBnk are made and the A comes to an end.

The time to go to Plan B is when: You are LBing more? Not sleeping well? Poor appetite? Losing your ability to concentrate? These are things that you need to take into account. Plan A is not sustainable indefinitely, and the more your love bank drains, the harder it will be to continue.

The 2 biggest mistakes with Plan B are not going to Plan B in time, and not insisting on the conditions for recovery. NO ONE wants to do Plan B. It goes against every instinct we have. But MB is about going against instincts. Harley says it over and over again on every topic he covers. Doing what our instincts tell us to do only gets us into trouble.

A Plan B letter should be short and to the point. It must include these

1. I love you

2. I married you for life. I want to stay married to you.

3. This thing you are doing is too painful for me to bear; it is destroying the love I have for you.

4. As long as you have contact with this person, I cannot see or speak to you.

5. When this affair ends, I would love to discuss reconciliation and recovery with you.

6. Until then I ask that you not contact me. All issues relating to children/finances/etc should go through____ who is acting as intermediary.

There is so much emphasis on ending the A and plan A, that people lose sight of the fact that ending the A is just one of two equally important parts in rebuilding the M. The second, and probably toughest part, is recovery. If the BS has very little love left for the WS, the recovery part may already be doomed because the BS will not put the sufficient effort to work his/her part and may use the WS's equally lukewarm response as enough proof to jettison the M and head straight to divorce. This is why plan B is an important component to the goal of rebuilding the M.

---------------------------------------------------------
COMMON MISCONCEPTION ABOUT LOVE BUSTERS

Many BS believe that insisting on no contact would be viewed as a love buster by their WS. Technically, it's not. A lot of posters talk about a LBer as anything that the WS finds unpleasant. That's not the case. If it were, then honesty, especially radical honesty, would become impossible.

A Love Buster falls into one of these categories:

1. Demands. Insisting that your spouse do something for you regardless of how it would make him or her feel to do it. Refusing to accept "No," to your request, graciously. Either overtly or insinuating some threat if your wish is not complied with.

There's a whole layer of subtleties around Demands. And it is defined by the one being asked to do whatever. I tend to be VERY sensitive to demands. My H saying something like, we need to change the oil this weekend, or I need you to come and look at (whatever his current project might be) will almost always fall into the demand category for me.

Also, we cannot insist that our spouse NOT do something. Although technically this is not a Demand but a notification that they are in violation of POJA, unless you are both on the same page about that policy, it will be a love buster.

The way to avoid making demands is to state what it is you would like, and then to ASK, "How would you feel about doing______?" This statement forces you to take your spouse's feelings into account, and to accept,"No," courteously.

2. Disrespect. This is anything that imposes your value judgment on your spouse. It can be as small as rolling your eyes at something he/she says, or as large as name calling, put-downs. One that is common for BS's is to question the WS's morals, standards, ethics, care of children.

While we may all agree with those assessments, to state them to your spouse is disrespectful. You can THINK whatever you want, but you need to monitor what comes out of your mouth.

3. Angry Outburst. Losing ones' temper and having a screeching tantrum is easy to recognize.

But an AO can be quiet and just as cutting. It's an action that is punishing in some way. (This does not include removing oneself from abuse or pain or neglect.... unless you hurl a rolling pin at his head on your way out the door.)

Threats are included in this category. So if you are planning to go to Plan B, then you need to make the plan and do it. Threatening would be an AO.

4. Annoying Habits. Things like slurping coffee, snoring, leaving your shoes all over the house, and collecting junk. All these are annoying habits. Things you do that make your spouse insane with irritation.

5. Independent Behavior. Monday night football, affairs, shopping with the girls, hunting, your religious practices. Lifestyle choices that are planned and executed without the enthusiastic agreement of both parties. Business travel falls into this category.

6. Dishonesty. Leaving your spouse in the dark on any of these subjects: 1. Past history 2. Present activities 3. Daily plans and schedule 4. Future plans, hopes, dreams, 5. Feelings and reactions... particularly to your spouse's behavior 6. Anything else you know to be true about yourself

Now, no contact in order to protect yourself from further pain does not fall into one of those categories. Will the WS be unhappy with that? Duh!!! Of course he/she will. But his/her unhappiness will be the direct consequence of his/her betrayal of you and his/her vows.

You are not hurting the WS. He/she has chosen to hurt themself by hurting you. No one, and least of all Harley, believes that you should be in pain in order to save your marriage. If you ever get a chance to hear him, he speaks about this all the time. That his concern is with YOU, the BS. He does not want you to suffer any more than you already are.

If your spouse is unhappy with n/c, then it's up to him/her to do the things HE/SHE needs to do in order to have you in his life.

[ October 26, 2002, 11:34 PM: Message edited by: zorweb ]

--------------------

Thank you Ark. I like that you are straight forward with your advice. I need that right now.

I printed out some Plan B letters and am going to work on constructing one. I am trying to decide if I should go to Plan B soon or wait until after my sister's wedding on May 15th. I would rather not answer questions about H's whereabouts from family and I'd like him to see how my family loves him (see below).

I called OW's mother this evening and I am very glad I did. She thought A was over and is so hurt by her daughter's actions. She had to go on anti-depressant meds to deal with her and the whole family is upset and ready to disown her. Her parents have made clear to her that they want nothing to ever do with my H. Mother is worried that father would shoot him (literally) because he is black. This really scares me. We cried together about how our loved ones have changed. Mother indicated that OW is having serious financial problems. She is going to stop giving OW money and groceries now. I was glad for mother's empathy and agreement to help end the affair. She wants her "old" daughter back and wants no part of H.

I am thinking of confronting H with this information from mother and threat from father before going to Plan B. My family is totally accepting of H and loves him. I don't know why he would do this...answer I suppose is fog. I worry about H's safety. Forcing him to live with her might give him a taste of their financial picture. And here he is upset with our finances! Unbelievable! I am going to open a private account to put my paycheck in to make sure it goes for necessities and not OW.

Thoughts anyone?
firefly

firefly -

You have done a great Plan A for a long time. I really believe your H does love you, but is just enjoying his cake-eating too much.

Get your money into your own account. Let him go with OW, and see how well she meets his needs. Do not worry, he will be back.

up up up...................

Well my world is spinning this very moment. I just got a call from WH. OW's mother sent her an email message indicating there really wasn't to talk about since OW was still living in fantasy world and she put my home telephone number on the it.

I am annoyed that OW's mother gave away that I spoke with her, but I can understand why. The woman is very distraught by her daughter's actions.

I told WH that I had spoken with the mother and what she had said to me. He said our relationship was over and he was moving out because he cannot trust me. I said that he could trust me and that I was dedicated to doing what was necessary to end their relationship. H hung up on me and I haven't been able to reach him.

H also said it was over when I talked with OW's husband. However, he didn't leave. I feel rather conflicted. I am still glad I contacted the mother and will follow up with her this evening possibly. I am not as upset as I thought I'd be about H saying he's moving out. It would be what is needed to propel to Plan B. On the flip side, I am rather scared.

H has the car today. He dropped me off at work so I have no way of getting home to see if he really is moving out. I have a late work meeting so I won't get finished until about 8pm. I hope this turns out to be a good thing. I was going to wait until after my sister's wedding to go to Plan B.

firefly

He said our relationship was over and he was moving out because he cannot trust me.

Did you bend over grab your gut and laugh so hard at the insanity of that you peed your pants...

did ya...
cause you should have...

insane...you can not be trusted......!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

So what plan are in firefly...

If you wait for him to "officially" leave and hand him a plan b letter when heading out the door ....do you think that is very effective?

plan b works best in the midst of a really effective plan a....

these actions are not very plan A...if you look at them realistically...

why would you want a man that has no applicable idea about marraige right now...to disgrace your sisters wedding ...and all it stands for?

and most importantly...

what are you doing to make friends..
what are you looking in to become involved in something...
what are YOU doing for YOU...

or are you just gonna keep down the path of pining for your husband...and listening to his insane comments of you not being trustworthy...

your sister is getting married in fifteen days...
time to immerse yourself in family and in the celebration....

have you written a plan b letter yet...
are you ready...

ark

No, I didn't laugh. But I believe that he is wrong that I am not trustworthy and that our relationship is over. Only time will tell though if we can get over the A.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />

So what plan are in firefly...

If you wait for him to "officially" leave and hand him a plan b letter when heading out the door ....do you think that is very effective?

plan b works best in the midst of a really effective plan a....

these actions are not very plan A...if you look at them realistically... <hr /></blockquote>I need some clarification here. If part of Plan A is exposing, then was talking to OW's mother wrong? Now OW cannot hide the A from her parents. How are my actions not very plan A? I am doing my best to meet EN and show my changes.

Also, don't many BS's go to Plan B once their WS's leave? How is this different? I haven't given him the Plan B letter yet, so I can't give it to him until I see him again. Right now I'm not sure when that will be. So where do I go from here?

Ok, I totally agree that I need to do more for myself. This A has really hurt my self-confidence so sometimes I have trouble putting myself out there. However, I made a number of really significant changes: a) I became a Christian after claiming to be an athiest for 12 year; b) I attend church weekly and also go to church functions (the little old ladies have adopted me); c) I have lost 72 lbs on Weight Watchers; d) I have become exercise-oriented; e) I know a whole lot more about relationships and marriage from all the reading I've been doing. So, I still have room for more, but I'm not completly inept in developing myself. I feel I've grown significantly. But I do have problems imagining my life with WH.

fire away....

firefly

firefly...

if you wait for him to leave you...and while walking out the door..and you hand him a plan b letter...he will read it INITIALLY and say...

so what...
isn't that what I am doing...

IF you can go to plan b..right in a midst of a good plan a...then it has more effect....

I mean the wedding is a perfect catalyst for you to do this...

again why would you want someone who is acting like him in attendance to celebrate your sisters marriage...

even him thinking he should go watch someone exchange vows is laughable...

I am not trying to discount your plan a...it has been good...but lately it appears it is running a little amuck..

confronting him last weekend about the money when that was a perfect time to just show him the changes you have made...

and you don't have to share one ounce of info you exchanged with OW mom or anyone else...

leave him wondering about you...

what exactly would happen if you were to go out tonight after work...

what if you were go him with him sicne you only have YOUR car....and then immediately turn and go out somewhere...

bye dear...I have some plans...back later??

also plan bing him with him not having car...interesting...
hope he likes the bus...

ark

Ok, I certainly see your point about how to go from Plan A to B effectively. I suppose I missed that opportunity now. Of course, I knew all along you were right, I just couldn't bring myself to face it.

I haven't heard from WH yet, so I guess all I can do is wait to see if he packs up. If not, then do I go immediately to plan B or should I hit plan A really good for a few more days and then do it? If he has already moved out then do I still give him the letter? Too many questions, I know!

One of WH's complaints was that he didn't feel I put him first in my life enough before. So in trying to correct that perception, I have tried during Plan A to be very accessible and giving of myself. If I start to do my own thing, will he think I'm back sliding?

Thank you Ark for your help. I am getting a better picture of my actions.

firefly

Ark,

Just to follow up on your comment about WH having to ride the bus...

Not only does he not have a car, he only works part time too. OW lives 45 minutes away so that is going to be a big pain and she is only working part time and having financial problems. And now her family is even more mad at her.

This has all the right ingredients to end the fantasy. I just hope it happens.

firefly

firefly,

I'm wrapping up my second week of Plan B. Here is how my transition from Plan A to Plan B went. It was seamless, and I think it had the effect intended.

My MIL said WW was surprised and her response was "...why didn't he tell me ahead of time what he was doing?..."

While I haven't heard from her since, I think it had the "hey, what a minute....." effect I had intended.

Good luck,
Ethan

[ April 30, 2004, 01:48 PM: Message edited by: thefurnitureman ]

Firefly - I think you have been doing a marvelous Plan A for a long time. When you are ready, you will go to Plan B. And often Plan B is what brings them back to the marriage.

^^BUMP^^
^^^ARK^^

When I got home on Friday, WH had moved out some of his clothes. I spoke with him on Saturday on the phone. He is still very mad about me talking with OW's mother. He wanted to go on living in the house (now moving to another bedroom) until he had the money to get a car and move out. I invited him to come over so we could talk face to face.

He came over and I told him that he could stay at our house only if he stopped seeing OW. He said that wouldn't happen. He said he definately didn't want to be at our house, but he wasn't sure he wanted to be at hers. So I told him he would need to go live with her then if he wouldn't end it. H was cold and distant. It was very hurtful. Before he left I gave him my Plan B letter with a picture of us taken at my parents on Easter day. He said he would be back on Sunday to get the rest of his stuff.

He didn't come on Sunday. I am guessing he will pick up his things today while I am at work.

Two days in Plan B. I am worried that going to Plan B with him already mad at me, wasn't good. However, I've been by his side for over seven months of this. I keep telling myself that even if he was home with me right now, it is only a fake marriage, because he is still seeing someone else. No matter how good it felt when he was with me, it wasn't pure. I cry a lot and I pray a lot.

firefly

[ May 03, 2004, 09:34 AM: Message edited by: firefly73 ]

Just had to say that I just got my contract for the next fiscal year and I got a $1,018 raise. I'm happy with that. Hopefully, it will help with the finances.

firefly...
I am happy for you...

and this has nothing to do with "dropping his sorry butt"...
or "kicken him to the curb"...

this is all about you claiming that being a part of a triangle is not what you desire in a marriage...

this is claiming a boundary that speaks the meaning of love and marriage vows...

much strength to you...

post on surviving plan b thread...gather strength...

ARK

firefly, I have heard almost all these same coments. I had spoken to the OWH on several occasions and my H said that I betrayed his trust and confidence!! Can you believe that? What a crock...just because OW has everyone believing he was mean and nasty to her. They, WS, will say anything when they aren't getting their way. Anyway, I don't have any suggestions for you except to keep posting here. I am new at this and sounds like I am at the same place you are. My H does not stay out late anymore though and has said he will try not to contact OW anymore. I am giving this till school is out and then if contact is still being made...Plan B.

Thank you Ark and Hurt for your comments.

H didn't get his things today, when he came to mow the grass. Interesting?!

firefly

stay dark firefly...

no comments
no contact...

can you mow the lawn yourself from now on...

ark

[ May 04, 2004, 05:46 AM: Message edited by: ark^^ ]

how are YOU doing in plan b...

ark

H called yesterday morning while at work "just to say hello." I was caught off guard and was just brief and polite.

H then called in the afternoon after I got back from my Weight Watchers meeting to see how I did. I was happy he remembered, but suprised he called again. He said that I was beautiful before I started losing weight (78 lbs. now).

I didn't expect him to call so much so I was not prepared to say anything to him about the contact. I thought about it and will say to him nicely "Honey, I really enjoy talking with you. However, I need you to end your relationship with OW because it is hurting me. Then we can talk all you want. If you aren't willing to end your relationship, then please don't call me."
How does that sound?

I'm doing ok with plan B though. Except, last night when I went to bed I cried so hard. I thought about how I was laying there all alone and how he was lying in bed next to her. It was an awful feeling. I feel like I lost and she won.

H works as a security guard where I work on Wednesday evenings. I have to be a work so I will probably see him. I am not sure how to handle that. I will try to avoid him, but I don't want to ignore him if I do see him. Any advice?

firefly

[ May 05, 2004, 10:51 AM: Message edited by: firefly73 ]

no contact...his phone calls prove the letter has an impact...now impact him with your actions...

firefly...I garuntee you he is way more lonely and lost laying next to an OP then you are by yourself in the bed...

plan B...means NO CONTACT!!!!
NONE..
get tough

ark

any good readings/postings on Plan B?

H called again today. He wanted to pick the check book up from the house to pay for his medicine. I was flabergasted and said ok.

Then, I called him back and said nicely that I thought that since he was living with OW now that they should be paying for his medication instead. Additionally, I said that I want him to end the relationship with her, otherwise he had to live his life with her. He said that maybe he should just put his money his separate account and I agreed. What should I have done?

firefly