Marriage Builders®
And also due to parents staying together JUST for the sake of the kids? I remember reading something here and I can't find it....

So yes, that's where BH and I are right now. He says he is staying "For the sake of the children", does not want to R, does not want to participate in MC, not even IC.

He told me he has read several studies done on this subject and that we are better off staying together for the sake of the children than divorcing.

Anyone have those or can point me to those??
Thanks,
McBecca


WW (me) 36
BH 37
Married 16 yrs
3 children, 12DD, 4DD, 7 mths DD (OC)
D-day 8/05
2nd D-day 10/05 *OC*
3rd D-day 6/08/06 DD *OC* born
~~ If I had known then what I know now ~~
McBecca:

Not sure this is what you are looking for, but its a start.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8112_lesson.html

Best wishes to your family.

MyBad
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Children have never been very good at listening to their elders, but they have never failed to imitate them.
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McB... I am sorry you are here. There are studies that support both sides of this issue....and both seem credible... but really I can't be sure. I KNOW that the AAP (American Academy of Pediatrics) has published data on children witnessing fighting between parents and the unhealthy impact on them.
I would just ask you to consider a few things to think about yourself before you turn to studies. Would you rather come from a broken home than live in one? See, there are a lot of wonderful marriages out there that are not the first marriage for either partner. I would rather be from a broken home because I would KNOW that my parents are then given the opportuntity to find happiness and a new spouse. A parents happiness is very important to children and I don't think that having parents live in what could become an incresingly tense situation is best for them.

Now getting to your specific situation. If you and your H divorce (and I am sad to say, that has been the probable outcome in my mind since I first learned of your situation) the best thing you can do is make sure the kids are provided stability and access to each parent. In the case of your daughter, I do not know what type of relationship your H will have with her in the future should you divorce... but it is important that you make sure she has a father figure in her life. That's all I will say about this since I have already made my feelings clear in the past.
I am sorry that your situation has turned for the worst. I think you were given some rose colored glasses by some here in the past regarding your situation. Your BH never seemed as on board with things in my mind as he was made out to be by others here. I am certain he is a good man... but again... even prior to your affair, there were problems that were already straining the marriage foundation.
I would say that you can let your H know that staying together BECAUSE you have children is fine... so long as they will be raised in a loving and caring home. Having mom and dad be nothing more than roomates is no way to teach the children how to handle relationships in the future.
You are in a very tough position and I am sorry that things have not worked out as planned. This is one relationship that I truly hoped I was dead wrong about.

MEDC.
Posted By: McBecca You and I both.... - 02/22/07 07:16 PM
But frankly, it is to the point where I have to make a decision in order for things to end or progress. He doesn't know yet if he will ever be able to forgive me, he is not certain he belives anything can change, he is convinced that people are who they are and change is only temporary. And worse yet, he believes there was "nothing wrong" with our M prior to the A.

We are not in R, but we are not trying either. We are just here. We are loving, don't get me wrong. If I take the initiative he holds my hand, he kisses me, we are intimate but his heart is not in it. It is a struggle.

He has refused MC and IC and at this point I am starting to see he has no faith that God can pull us through this. When you have no faith in God, then to put your faith in people is impossible. So the latest was "I am staying because of the children" which sounds very novel and unselfish but the reality is sooner or later that too gets old. He must be forgetting how his own childhood was with his parents living as room mates and nothing more, very little respect from his Dad towards his Mom (and she never had an A, but he did...).

He told me he is glad his father stayed with his Mom because he feels his Mom can barely survive without his Dad now that he has passed away. So I think in many ways, that's why he is still here, he is afraid I will not make it on my own.

Oh well... it has been a long 8 months and there is no light at the end of this tunnel.

Thanks,
Posted By: Just Learning Re: You and I both.... - 02/22/07 08:09 PM
McB,

You stated
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But frankly, it is to the point where I have to make a decision in order for things to end or progress. He doesn't know yet if he will ever be able to forgive me, he is not certain he belives anything can change, he is convinced that people are who they are and change is only temporary. And worse yet, he believes there was "nothing wrong" with our M prior to the A.


First, your H is right, people don't often change especially their "core" values. What does often change and can change is peoples perspective of other people, and of themselves. With changed perspectives comes changed actions. Look at your marriage. You loved him and you married him, and then you had an affair, did you really change? Did you change your morals, or just forget them?

Don't you find it interesting that you feel the same way about him and your marriage? You don't think he can change thus "staying for the kids" is not good enough for you. You don't think he can change thus his view of the marriage before your affair cannot change.

You don't think he can change so you feel you cannot show him what a good marriage really is like and that he might find he really likes the new marriage.

You don't think he can change, so you were willing and now are willing to leave him? Yet, you want HIM to change so you can stay.

What you haven't probably figured out is that he probably cannot admit that he stays with you because he loves you and needs you, that would be admitting he is a wimp who is raising another man's child. So what is a good reason for a man to stay with a wife that brings another man's child into his family??? Perhaps it is NOBEL to say for the kids, thus not having to admit that he has accepted what you have done and still loves you.

Girl, you are NOT looking at this correctly, and until you change YOUR PERSPECTIVE, you cannot hope for him to change his.

Please think about this. Your marriage can be saved and a good reason to do it is...FOR THE KIDS.

God Bless,

JL
Posted By: hopeandpray Re: You and I both.... - 02/22/07 08:51 PM
McBecca,

I still think there is hope for you (go back and read your original thread) and your M. But, you really do have to understand that what you heaped upon your BH is more than anyone should have to deal with. Not only an affair but a constant, daily reminder in the form of a child. Most men would have been long gone by now. This says something about your BH by itself.

Don't give up.
Posted By: McBecca I can't save this marriage ALONE.... - 02/22/07 08:52 PM
He has to participate in the marriage and he is not. He is just "coasting".... he's told me this. I don't want him to change, I want him to PARTICIPATE in this marriage. Sure, I can go back to the way things were before the A when I did all the work, I did all the planning, I did all the romance, I did all those things. Yet where did that get us? nowhere.... that's what he is doing right now. He doesn't want to talk about the A or the issues, he doesn't want to seek help. This is WAY beyond anything we can fix ourselves. He won't even read the books recommended to help HIM heal. Nevermind to fix anything....

He hasn't forgiven me, and I do understand that takes time. However, sitting around not doing anything about it, is not going to resolved anything. Is that what R is? I don't know, but I don't think so.

I don't know how else I can make him see that I cannot do this on my own. He has failure in mind already. With time and actions, I can show him he is wrong, I realize that. However, doesn't he also need to be a participant here? He won't even talk about it... he is keeping all the hurt and anger inside. How is that helpful to anyone?
Posted By: hopeandpray Re: I can't save this marriage ALONE.... - 02/22/07 08:55 PM
It sounds as if your BH needs IC in the worst way. He needs a place, absent you, where he can say whatever he wants, vent, be angry, hurt, depressed, etc. (speaking of depressed, is he depressed?).

Are you consoling and helping him?
Posted By: McBecca I Agree.... he needs counseling - 02/22/07 09:33 PM
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It sounds as if your BH needs IC in the worst way. He needs a place, absent you, where he can say whatever he wants, vent, be angry, hurt, depressed, etc. (speaking of depressed, is he depressed?).

Are you consoling and helping him?

No, he won't talk about it or allow to have any emotions over it. He is closed off (which is usually the norm with him) to me and others. He is just keeping it all inside. I suggested he talk to a pastor at our church but he said he is not ready, so I suggested counseling and he said "maybe sometime"...
Posted By: medc Re: I Agree.... he needs counseling - 02/22/07 09:44 PM
McB,
You asked if this is what recovery looks like. Sadly, for a lot of people, yes. In my two plus years here I have seen many more cases like yours than anything else. I posted a study here that said 75% of people that "survived" an affair were unhappy in their marriage and wish they had left instead. This was done years into recovery to allow things to settle out.
Does that mean you have to setle for that? Well, i am not sure. YOu can do what you want and I will not be so bold as to know what is best for you... but speaking for me, I would want more out of a marriage before and after an affair. You need to take into consideration the damage that has been done to your H and if it is temporary. Or are you just seeing the same old, same old. Could be that he is happy being less than happy... you may want and need more. You know him best and can best figure this stuff out.
What is his relationship like with your daughter at this point? Does he treat her any different than the other kids?

MEDC
Posted By: eav1967 Re: I Agree.... he needs counseling - 02/22/07 10:20 PM
8 months is not a long time to be attempting to recover

give your husband more time to heal

8 months of your being unhappy with how he is REACTING to your A is nothing compared to the pain and unhappiness your A caused

8 months into our attempt at recovery:
-i was still crying when the weather came on and it mentioned the town the OW lived in
-i was still questioning if i even wanted to still be married to my H even though he was trying hard
-i hadn't forgiven him and didn't know if i could
-i surely didn't trust him
-i wasn't really committed to changing ME because i thought he was the one with the problem
-i was still so hurt and angry

buy time however you can

i even recall reading here somewher that for many BS, at 6 months into recovery, things get worse for some reason because regardless of how things have been going, they question if they did the right think taking their spouse back

you can always choose to divorce later....so choose to stay married now
Posted By: McBecca He adores her.... - 02/22/07 10:28 PM
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McB,
You asked if this is what recovery looks like. Sadly, for a lot of people, yes. In my two plus years here I have seen many more cases like yours than anything else. I posted a study here that said 75% of people that "survived" an affair were unhappy in their marriage and wish they had left instead. This was done years into recovery to allow things to settle out.
Does that mean you have to setle for that? Well, i am not sure. YOu can do what you want and I will not be so bold as to know what is best for you... but speaking for me, I would want more out of a marriage before and after an affair. You need to take into consideration the damage that has been done to your H and if it is temporary. Or are you just seeing the same old, same old. Could be that he is happy being less than happy... you may want and need more. You know him best and can best figure this stuff out.
What is his relationship like with your daughter at this point? Does he treat her any different than the other kids?

MEDC

or at least treats her/loves her the same way he does our other two. I am so grateful for that. He says she is innocent in all of this so he would never take it out on her.

As far as how he was before the A and how he is now.... yes, you hit the nail on the head. He is exactly as he was before the A, passive on all counts. If I initiate, he participates, but again just passive... coasting along. So much of our relationship right now is like it was before, it is scary!! scary because this is what got us in this mess in the first place. But he won't take ANY responsibility for the relationship issues before the A. In many ways, he has the upper hand now and as such, he makes sure that if I bring anything up to remind me that I am the one who had the affair...

I am human, I made a mistake, I made many mistakes. But isn't it a bigger sin for him to stay with me filled with resentment, anger, frustration? (all hidden inside of course never to be shown outwardly until the right time comes along).

He says he was happy with how things were.... that we had an "ok" marriage. I agree, it was an "ok" marriage if you go by secular standards, but it was NOT a Godly marriage by any means.

I feel like this has already gotten to the point where something has to give. He says he knows I will NEVER file for D out of fear so he is just waiting around until I do something stupid again. His faith in me is gone, but sometimes I wonder if I ever had it. He was disrespectul to me as a woman BEFORE the A, now he can say he has REASONS to be. How does that make for a good example for children? No f'cking way.... I SAW how his father treated his mother, she was his cook, his nurse, his doormat and the lady never had an affair! Is that what I want my girls to think is the proper way to be treated in a marriage? or relationship? Of course not. That is NOT Godly.

But right now I have no right to bring God into this because if I had been godly before I would never had had the affair...

It is a vicious, sick circle we are in.
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8 months is not a long time to be attempting to recover

give your husband more time to heal

8 months of your being unhappy with how he is REACTING to your A is nothing compared to the pain and unhappiness your A caused

8 months into our attempt at recovery:
-i was still crying when the weather came on and it mentioned the town the OW lived in
-i was still questioning if i even wanted to still be married to my H even though he was trying hard
-i hadn't forgiven him and didn't know if i could
-i surely didn't trust him
-i wasn't really committed to changing ME because i thought he was the one with the problem
-i was still so hurt and angry

buy time however you can

i even recall reading here somewher that for many BS, at 6 months into recovery, things get worse for some reason because regardless of how things have been going, they question if they did the right think taking their spouse back

you can always choose to divorce later....so choose to stay married now


You have to understand he shows NO emotions so whatever emotions he may have, he hasn't even dealt with them yet. I wish he was at least attending IC to be able to express his anger, resentment, fears, everything to someone.... but he isn't. He did however, consult with an attorney.

At this point, I don't want recovery, I want him to seek help so he can figure out IF he wants to recover!! He seems to be just sitting there waiting for some sign from God that tells him what to do (or for me to file for D whichever comes first).
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it has been a long 8 months and there is no light at the end of this tunnel.


~you~ are the light at the end of the tunnel

it's been ~only~ 8 months

if ~you~ want to be the hero (and I think you ought to volunteer for that position) ... then be the hero ... be the light

love him
and if he is withdrawn ... you be the light anyway

and if he is sad ... you be the light

and if he is unable to express his unimaginable pain ... you be the soft place for him to fall

Pep
Posted By: medc Re: He adores her.... - 02/23/07 01:10 AM
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scary because this is what got us in this mess in the first place.


NO, NO, NO. What got you in this mess in the first place was sleeping with another man. I don't care what the state of your M was... it was not a reason to have an affair.


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I am human, I made a mistake, I made many mistakes. But isn't it a bigger sin for him to stay with me filled with resentment, anger, frustration?


IMO, no. You sound somewhat off here.

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But right now I have no right to bring God into this because if I had been godly before I would never had had the affair...

Ridiculous statement on his part.


Look, in a way you have to take more than you would normally because of your actions.... BUT (note the caps).. you do not have to be a doormat and most certainly do not need to stay in something that was NEVER healthy if he is not willing to work on it.

See, people painted him as this saint here in the past and I saw some HUGE issues with him. I will get on you about your affair... and remember, I did... but that does not mean you need to settle for a less that good marriage. YOU need to be sensitive to what you have done... but he needs to row this boat too.

So, some tough questions...

Do you think you set the bar too high? Do you think you are looking at him fairly?

Can you ever see yourself having another affair?

What are you going to do next?

Are you afraid to tell him that you need for the two of you to be in therapy because you will NOT accept a marriage that is failing. That you need to do what you can to see that it survives.

He knows that YOU will never file for divorce out of fear of WHAT??? He is just waiting for you to fail again is a normal feeling. See again, much of my opinion here goes back to your previous thread when I had a much different view of him than others.

I remember you coming here subsequent to that thread and saying he only hung around to make sure you wouldn't go back to the OM. When he was sure of that, he lost interest. Honestly, based on what you have told us here, I have always doubted your H's sincerity to have a good marriage. And you will not find me sticking up for many FWS over a BS... but in this case... something has always rubbed me wrong about him (even when he was being knighted here on this site).

YOu need a plan. I would say call the Harley's if you think that is necessary. I would think though a MC and IC for YOU are more in order. I would love to see him in a IC office, but I do not see that happening.

I am sorry for you McB. I am sorry for your H too.
Posted By: believer Re: He adores her.... - 02/23/07 02:04 AM
Eight months is much too early to expect a lot of healing, and especially when there is a child.

Does your husband have any good points, or was it 16 years of misery?
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...but his heart is not in it.


Becca, how do you KNOW this?

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I am starting to see he has no faith that God can pull us through this.


Do YOU have faith that God can pull you two through this?

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So the latest was "I am staying because of the children" which sounds very novel and unselfish but the reality is sooner or later that too gets old.


What does his reason for staying matter?

He's choosing to stay w/ you.

Every moment is a new opportunity to connect w/ him....reach out to him...build up your M.

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So I think in many ways, that's why he is still here, he is afraid I will not make it on my own.


You are ASSUMING stuff about him, Becca.

Again, I ask you, WHY does it matter to you what his reason is for staying?

You have opportunity here...why not go for it?

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Oh well... it has been a long 8 months and there is no light at the end of this tunnel.


That's b/c your focus is on HIM and not on YOU.

YOU have plenty of power, Becca.

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He has to participate in the marriage and he is not.


He's not participating in your M? Really?

Isn't he having SF w/ you? Paying the bills? Caring for your kids? Coming home every night?

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Sure, I can go back to the way things were before the A when I did all the work, I did all the planning, I did all the romance, I did all those things. Yet where did that get us? nowhere.... that's what he is doing right now.


I hear you saying you resent the things you did for your M before the A.

Where's your ownership of the choices you made w/ regards to them?

You chose to "do all the work", "all the planning", "all the romance". Your BH didn't force you to do them.

What did you expect to get from doing those things?

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He doesn't want to talk about the A or the issues, he doesn't want to seek help. This is WAY beyond anything we can fix ourselves. He won't even read the books recommended to help HIM heal. Nevermind to fix anything....


Why don't you accept his choice to manage his pain the way he wants to?


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However, sitting around not doing anything about it, is not going to resolved anything.


Becca, how do you KNOW he's NOT processing his pain?

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Is that what R is?


Love him, Becca.

Accept him...and his choices...

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He won't even talk about it... he is keeping all the hurt and anger inside.


Why MUST he talk about it, right now?

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How is that helpful to anyone?


It must be helping him in some way.

Maybe he feels safer NOT talking about it?

I don't know. I can only guess.

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No, he won't talk about it or allow to have any emotions over it.


He has feelings about all of this, Becca, but he doesn't want to share them.

Is THAT a sin? Unforgivable?

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or at least treats her/loves her the same way he does our other two. I am so grateful for that.

Doesn't THIS put deposits in your LB, Becca?

Doesn't THIS count as participation?

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He is exactly as he was before the A, passive on all counts. If I initiate, he participates, but again just passive... coasting along.


In other words, he IS participating in your M. When you initiate things w/ him, he doesn't reject you. He reaches back.

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So much of our relationship right now is like it was before, it is scary!! scary because this is what got us in this mess in the first place.


No, Becca, the mess you are in is b/c of your thinking prior to your A (feelings of resentments and feelings of entitlement) coupled w/ your choice to have the A...

Do you know why you chose to have it?

B/c answering THAT question is THE KEY to your recovery. It's not about changing your BH, it's about understanding yourself better.

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But he won't take ANY responsibility for the relationship issues before the A. In many ways, he has the upper hand now and as such, he makes sure that if I bring anything up to remind me that I am the one who had the affair...


It sounds to me like he thinks you are trying to blame him for your A.

What have you learned, Becca? How have YOU changed prior to your A? Are you still stacking up resentments against him?

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But isn't it a bigger sin for him to stay with me filled with resentment, anger, frustration? (all hidden inside of course never to be shown outwardly until the right time comes along).


Becca, are you angry? Are you resentful? Are you frustrated?

Feelings aren't sins.

Only actions can be sinful.

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He says he was happy with how things were.... that we had an "ok" marriage. I agree, it was an "ok" marriage if you go by secular standards, but it was NOT a Godly marriage by any means.


Where's your ownership, Becca?

Your M wasn't "Godly" so you had an A to make it "Godly"?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

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He was disrespectul to me as a woman BEFORE the A, now he can say he has REASONS to be


How is he disrespectful to you?

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How does that make for a good example for children? No f'cking way.... I SAW how his father treated his mother, she was his cook, his nurse, his doormat and the lady never had an affair! Is that what I want my girls to think is the proper way to be treated in a marriage? or relationship? Of course not. That is NOT Godly.


Do you think YOU are a doormat to him?

B/c you think you don't have a godly marriage, you are going to D your BH w/o a Biblical basis?

How is THAT Godly?

Your BH HAS the Biblical authority to D YOU, but you don't (as far as I can see from what you've written here) have the authority to D him.

Becca, you have come a long way. But, some of your thinking is still wayward.

Please focus on YOU, and the things you can do to change your perspective.

~ Marsh
Posted By: McBecca My answers to your post.... - 02/23/07 04:38 AM
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scary because this is what got us in this mess in the first place.


NO, NO, NO. What got you in this mess in the first place was sleeping with another man. I don't care what the state of your M was... it was not a reason to have an affair.

You are absolutely right, The affair was ALL me and my selfish needs. I take 100% responsibility for that, an affair is NEVER the answer no matter what...


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I am human, I made a mistake, I made many mistakes. But isn't it a bigger sin for him to stay with me filled with resentment, anger, frustration?


IMO, no. You sound somewhat off here.

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But right now I have no right to bring God into this because if I had been godly before I would never had had the affair...

Ridiculous statement on his part.


Look, in a way you have to take more than you would normally because of your actions.... BUT (note the caps).. you do not have to be a doormat and most certainly do not need to stay in something that was NEVER healthy if he is not willing to work on it.

No, our relationship was never healthy in many ways. For starters and I think I mentioned this before, he has never seen me as an equal, to him I am (as a woman) inferior, weak, emotional, volitile, confusing and right down too much work. He sees women in general as nothing but a road block in life, he feels if men rule the world, it would be a much better place, things would get done, there would be no issues.... yes, that sounds sick as I type it but these are HIS words almost word for word. When he became a Christian he stopped saying many of these things outloud, but he still made sure I knew them. I have always felt inadequate around him, inferior and even useless.

See, people painted him as this saint here in the past and I saw some HUGE issues with him. I will get on you about your affair... and remember, I did... but that does not mean you need to settle for a less that good marriage. YOU need to be sensitive to what you have done... but he needs to row this boat too.

Well, to make matters even better, he is passive agressive so a lot of our issues for the good part of our marriage have been blamed on me.... because I am woman and as such he feels I make his world difficult (he says this about ALL women, not just me... the ones he works with, his mother, his daughters etc). Am I too sensitive? It wasn't until I met other men who DO appreciate the qualities of women that I realize how f'cked up his mind is.
So, some tough questions...

Do you think you set the bar too high? Do you think you are looking at him fairly?

I had NO expectations of him for a long time.... I simply thougth this is how life is suppose to be. However, the affair as wrong as it may be, did open my eyes to a lot of things including what exactly my emotional needs are. When this was brought up in counseling he was willing to do whatever possible to make that happen, however now he says he was only doing that to keep me from running away with OM, so in other words, no he was not sincere. Is it too high to expect to be respected as a woman? It wasn't there BEFORE the A, imagine now.... when I asked him if he ever respected me, he couldn't answer it because he "doesn't remember back that far" (16 yrs)

Can you ever see yourself having another affair?

No no and NOT EVEN IF I HAD A KNIFE OR A GUN TO MY HEAD! what I do see is a divorce at age 50 or when the kids leave the house

What are you going to do next?

I have told him how I feel, I have repented, I have been forgiven by God and I feel His presence in my life again. My mind and heart tell me it is time for me to let him go.

Are you afraid to tell him that you need for the two of you to be in therapy because you will NOT accept a marriage that is failing. That you need to do what you can to see that it survives.

I have told him that and his answer is "either you like it the way it is RIGHT NOW, or move on"

He knows that YOU will never file for divorce out of fear of WHAT??? He is just waiting for you to fail again is a normal feeling. See again, much of my opinion here goes back to your previous thread when I had a much different view of him than others.

Yes, he says people do not change (and he speaks from his own experience because he told the counselor he was going to change by sooner rather than later he was back to being himself) therefore he expects that I am going to screw him againe....

I remember you coming here subsequent to that thread and saying he only hung around to make sure you wouldn't go back to the OM. When he was sure of that, he lost interest. Honestly, based on what you have told us here, I have always doubted your H's sincerity to have a good marriage. And you will not find me sticking up for many FWS over a BS... but in this case... something has always rubbed me wrong about him (even when he was being knighted here on this site).

Funny you mention this..... someone he works with who was meeting him for the first time told him flat out to his face "you don't have sisters do you? " and he answerd "no I don't" and she said to him "I can tell because you are insincere" he was SHOCKED that someone could ever think of him that way! for weeks he couldn't stop wondering how she could see that...... it really bothered him because he doesn't see that himself. Yet, actions do speak louder than words and he does/says a lot of things that make others feel he is not sincere.

YOu need a plan. I would say call the Harley's if you think that is necessary. I would think though a MC and IC for YOU are more in order. I would love to see him in a IC office, but I do not see that happening.

No, he said he "might" some day... but not now, even the books I have bought for US to read, he won't touch. Again, he never used to respect my opinion (before the A) imagine now? I am scum

I am sorry for you McB. I am sorry for your H too.
Posted By: eav1967 Re: My answers to your post.... - 02/23/07 05:17 AM
deleted
Posted By: McBecca Marsh... my answers to you.... - 02/23/07 05:20 AM
Becca, how do you KNOW this?

Because he's told me this. We had a conversation about the time we were separated the first time, he was dating someone and he had to break up with her so we can get back together. He never told me this before but he told me that it was HARD for him to do that (break up with her) and that they even cried together when he broke it off with her. I told him "wow, you must have been in love with her" and he said he doesn't remember. So I said "you never even cried during the birth of your children or for me" his answer was "I don't remember"..... this conversation made me realize of course he is the way he is towards me, we were so freaking young when we got married, we were in HEAT not in love! His heart has never been in this marriage. I do not even KNOW his heart.
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I am starting to see he has no faith that God can pull us through this.


Do YOU have faith that God can pull you two through this?

Funny you said, I JUST asked him that same question. Yes, I DO believe God can make something beautiful out of all this crap I created, but he doesn't. He said he thinks God is telling him to GET OUT before something worse happens (what on earth can be worse than this?).....

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So the latest was "I am staying because of the children" which sounds very novel and unselfish but the reality is sooner or later that too gets old.


What does his reason for staying matter?

Because his version of "staying for the kids" is unhealthy. He wants to do nothing about the issues (related to the A not even about the M) and how can that be healthy? if resentment, anger and frustration is not dealt with, is that going to become LOVE at some point???

He's choosing to stay w/ you.

He said he is doing this just to keep OM away

Every moment is a new opportunity to connect w/ him....reach out to him...build up your M.

That's all I've been doing.... but it is the biggest brick wall there is.

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So I think in many ways, that's why he is still here, he is afraid I will not make it on my own.


You are ASSUMING stuff about him, Becca.

All I can do is assume and wonder.... he won't share his TRUE feelings or heart.... he told me he has NO feelings..... I find that hard to believe!

Again, I ask you, WHY does it matter to you what his reason is for staying?
It matters to me because this is how his family handles issues "sweep" them under the rug and they will disappear.... he is GREAT at that but his anger comes out in other ways.....

You have opportunity here...why not go for it?

He is closed off to anything I do or say.... my actions to him are not sincere or truthful.... he has hard time trusting people and now I have given him a reason. He had no respect for my opinion BEFORE the A.... now I am might as well be painted on the wall....

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Oh well... it has been a long 8 months and there is no light at the end of this tunnel.


That's b/c your focus is on HIM and not on YOU.

Again, I focus on him because I believe he nees healing.... even if we D, he needs to heal from all this but he won't seek help

YOU have plenty of power, Becca.

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He has to participate in the marriage and he is not.


He's not participating in your M? Really?

Isn't he having SF w/ you? Paying the bills? Caring for your kids? Coming home every night?

Yes, he told me he is doing this out of his sense of responsibility.... not because he wants to.

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Sure, I can go back to the way things were before the A when I did all the work, I did all the planning, I did all the romance, I did all those things. Yet where did that get us? nowhere.... that's what he is doing right now.


I hear you saying you resent the things you did for your M before the A.

Where's your ownership of the choices you made w/ regards to them?

You chose to "do all the work", "all the planning", "all the romance". Your BH didn't force you to do them.

No he didn't force me, and I thought I was doing the right thing.... I thought it was my job to do those things.... I see now that God does not want a passive husband and that it is HIS responsibility to do those things as well.

What did you expect to get from doing those things?

I guess I expected appreciation and I guess it was my way to show him how much I loved him....

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He doesn't want to talk about the A or the issues, he doesn't want to seek help. This is WAY beyond anything we can fix ourselves. He won't even read the books recommended to help HIM heal. Nevermind to fix anything....


Why don't you accept his choice to manage his pain the way he wants to?
Because he isn't managing the pain in any way... he is just pushing it aside and in his own words "we (his family) are great at sweeping things under the rug"

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However, sitting around not doing anything about it, is not going to resolved anything.


Becca, how do you KNOW he's NOT processing his pain?

I don't know.... he won't share, when I bring it up, all I get from him is "I don't know...."

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Is that what R is?


Love him, Becca.

Accept him...and his choices...

He is very hard to love. I don't feel a connection to him, there is no intimacy, I really do not know who he is..... he is a stranger to me.

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He won't even talk about it... he is keeping all the hurt and anger inside.


Why MUST he talk about it, right now?

Because again, if we ignore this, it is NOT going to make it go away.... he wishes that was the case.

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How is that helpful to anyone?


It must be helping him in some way.

Maybe he feels safer NOT talking about it?

I don't know. I can only guess.

Your guess is as good as mine......

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No, he won't talk about it or allow to have any emotions over it.


He has feelings about all of this, Becca, but he doesn't want to share them.


Is THAT a sin? Unforgivable?

No of course not, but to him knowledge is power and if he were to share himself with me, he would be giving me power.....

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or at least treats her/loves her the same way he does our other two. I am so grateful for that.

Doesn't THIS put deposits in your LB, Becca?

Doesn't THIS count as participation?

Yes, and I tell him so. I always tell him how grateful I am for how much he loves the baby.

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He is exactly as he was before the A, passive on all counts. If I initiate, he participates, but again just passive... coasting along.


In other words, he IS participating in your M. When you initiate things w/ him, he doesn't reject you. He reaches back.

Yes, that is how are M has always been.... he is a passive participant... he may complain about what I plan or what I want to do but then he does it and has a blast.....

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So much of our relationship right now is like it was before, it is scary!! scary because this is what got us in this mess in the first place.


No, Becca, the mess you are in is b/c of your thinking prior to your A (feelings of resentments and feelings of entitlement) coupled w/ your choice to have the A...

Do you know why you chose to have it?

Yes, there are many reasons why.... and as hard as it may sound, one of them was just to know if he even care. Another reason was that my heart was empty and instead of seeking God to fill it, I seeked another man. I was lonely, depressed and needed to feel loved. All selfish reasons, but those are my reasons.

B/c answering THAT question is THE KEY to your recovery. It's not about changing your BH, it's about understanding yourself better.

I do understand the whys now.... which is why our situation right now makes me wonder what on earth I am doing here.

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But he won't take ANY responsibility for the relationship issues before the A. In many ways, he has the upper hand now and as such, he makes sure that if I bring anything up to remind me that I am the one who had the affair...


It sounds to me like he thinks you are trying to blame him for your A.

Yes. that is absoutely correct. He thinks if he goes to counseling or read the books, he is going to be blamed for some things and he doesn't want that.

What have you learned, Becca? How have YOU changed prior to your A? Are you still stacking up resentments against him?

No, I will get out of here before I allow that to happen. I've learned that without the connection, closseness and intimacy with him, I might as well leave because that is not the kind of marriage that can succeed.

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But isn't it a bigger sin for him to stay with me filled with resentment, anger, frustration? (all hidden inside of course never to be shown outwardly until the right time comes along).


Becca, are you angry? Are you resentful? Are you frustrated?

Feelings aren't sins.

Only actions can be sinful.

I am extremly frustrated, emotionally exhausted, and thirsty for companionship.

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He says he was happy with how things were.... that we had an "ok" marriage. I agree, it was an "ok" marriage if you go by secular standards, but it was NOT a Godly marriage by any means.


Where's your ownership, Becca?

Your M wasn't "Godly" so you had an A to make it "Godly"?

No, I never really knew what a Godly marriage was until after the A, after reading ans seeking God's word.....

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

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He was disrespectul to me as a woman BEFORE the A, now he can say he has REASONS to be


How is he disrespectful to you?

His view of women is that we are not capable of much other than trouble. We are not efficient, or as intelligent as men are, we are not as driven or as capable as men are. His views are so distorted.

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How does that make for a good example for children? No f'cking way.... I SAW how his father treated his mother, she was his cook, his nurse, his doormat and the lady never had an affair! Is that what I want my girls to think is the proper way to be treated in a marriage? or relationship? Of course not. That is NOT Godly.


Do you think YOU are a doormat to him?

I am an obstacle to him. If I wasn't in his life, he would have so much more money and "toys"....

B/c you think you don't have a godly marriage, you are going to D your BH w/o a Biblical basis?

How is THAT Godly?

I committed adultery, the only time when God allows for divorce. He is very well aware of that and he is willing to give m a D if I am the one to file.

Your BH HAS the Biblical authority to D YOU, but you don't (as far as I can see from what you've written here) have the authority to D him.

Becca, you have come a long way. But, some of your thinking is still wayward.

Please focus on YOU, and the things you can do to change your perspective.

I don't know how else to change my thinking. Is it wrong for me to want him to heal so he can figure out if we can R or not?

~ Marsh [/quote]
Posted By: McBecca Yes, he has a lot of good points.... - 02/23/07 05:27 AM
And you know what, life would be AWESOME if I was a robot without feelings, emotions and needs. BUT I AM NOT, nobody is.... yet that is how I would need to be to make him happy and I am tired, discouraged and frustrated.

I don't want him to fix our marriage, I just wish he would seek help to heal so he can figure out what he wants. Is that too much to expect at this point? He keeps telling me "we aren't gettting any younger" NO KIDDING!! he doesn't want to be 50 yrs old and still dealing with this crap!

Our marriage produced two beautiful girls, through our marriage we found salvation. Those are things I wouldn't change. But let's face it, when the children are gone, there will be nothing left but each other. If we don't work at it now, we will have nothing then. But we can't work at anything until he is healed, and ready.
Posted By: eav1967 Re: Marsh... my answers to you.... - 02/23/07 05:28 AM
McBecca

8 months into our "recovery" my H was just like you are now, he thought i should be doing so much more to forgive him because MY feelings about WHAT HE DID were making him feel bad. (so "heal faster from the pain I caused you so I can feel better faster)

it doesn't sound to me like you understand that you are going through withdrawl from the affair.

1. you still see little hope for your future with your H

2. You want all the "good feelings" that you were having in the 'fantasy land" with the OM and your H isn't doing anything to let you feel that way.

your H is doing everything in his power to HEAL HIMSELF enough to find the strength to work on healing your marriage.

3. you don't seem to be very appreciative of a man who is willing to try to forgive your A, rebuild your marraige and accept a child you had with someone else.

4. you don't sound like someone who realizes the damage that your A has done OR has accepted that recovery will take years of hard work

4. you are filled with RESENTMENT toward your H and you are sounding vey selfish.....you honestly sound to me like a person who would be headed TOWARD an affair-not a person trying to recover from one
Posted By: eav1967 Re: Marsh... my answers to you.... - 02/23/07 05:33 AM
if you want to recover your marraige, i would suggest that you begin by making a list of the things that you LOVE or even LIKE about your husband. This will give you something positive to think about him and will cause positive feelings.

then PLAN A HIM. make deposits in his love bank. You emptied it during the A.

plan A...make deposits when he will let you by meeting his needs and don't expect ANYTHING in return.

when you MAKE him happy by meeting HIS needs, he may want to make YOU happy by meeting YOUR needs


please read lostsheeps thread

she came here just like you are and has come very far in her thinking
Posted By: medc Re: Marsh... my answers to you.... - 02/23/07 05:56 AM
I would suggest AGAINST that thread.... LS has made some strides but has a long way to go before OM is out of her system. Becca needs to focus on a M... not that situation, IMVHO. Obviously it is just an opinion.
Posted By: eav1967 Re: Marsh... my answers to you.... - 02/23/07 06:19 AM
maybe you should consider changing the title of your thread to something like:

i'm a FWS...how can I help my husband heal so he wants to work on our marriage?

this might bring you some help from some posters who fully understand the MB concepts and how to apply them to your situation
Posted By: penaltybox Re: Marsh... my answers to you.... - 02/23/07 01:01 PM
From Penalty Kill

McBecca, I'm sorry for what you and your H and your children are going through. But I think you are being very impatient with your H, whatever his flaws may be. We all have flaws, each and every one of us. Big honking ones.

Please listen to eav when she tells you that 8 months is a drop in the bucket when it comes to recovery....because it is. At 8 months, my H and I were still on the 120 foot drop roller coaster. I just hung on and did what I had to do, one day at a time. It's recovery, and that's what you're supposed to do. My H did the same. Some days were easier than others.

It's 19 months out and things are much smoother....and we don't have an OC in the picture.

You said this:

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Yes, I DO believe God can make something beautiful out of all this crap I created, but he doesn't.

Oh boy. If I suggested to my H that G-d, or anyone else could make something beautiful out of my infidelity, I don't want to think about what would happen. You can make something good in spite of it, maybe, but not out of it.

After the first week or so of recovery, I stopped talking about forgiveness with my H. I realized that forgiveness is a personal issue of his that I had no control over. To be perfectly honest, his forgiveness was not my concern. My concern was taking care of my children, loving them and loving my H.

Drop the things you can't control. Focus on the things that you can: yourself and your actions and your reactions. Don't think about the future, concentrate on the day at hand. "Sufficient unto the day is the evil therof"

Just my .02
Posted By: Mulan Re: Marsh... my answers to you.... - 02/23/07 01:57 PM
I totally agree with eav. Please re-read her last two posts to you again and again.

Becca, it's clear that you have no idea in the world just how deeply, deeply wounded your husband is. He is struggling to walk on two broken legs, but you are impatient with him and complaining that he doesn't seem to feel like running a marathon.

Back off.

Let him be.

He will heal in his own way and in his own time.

Just worry about the small positive moment-to-moment things you can do for him.

If/when he wants your help or anyone else's help, he will seek it out.

He needs to heal in his own way. You are only making things worse by demanding that he heal YOUR way.
Mulan
Posted By: rwinger Re: Marsh... my answers to you.... - 02/23/07 02:16 PM
just a little 3 mos ago you posted

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So why am I STILL having thoughts of OM? I know OC has a lot to do with it. BH and I have talked about it. I've been able for the most part to share with him my thoughts when they happen.

I guess I am mostly "emotional" about the holidays and all that OM is missing because I chose to stayed married. Silly uh? I know in my heart of hearts that this is what is best for ALL of us including him, but still I am feeling GUILT over it!! WHY? WHY? WHY? Why can I feel guilt over the pain I caused BH instead of the pain OM could be feeling?

I want to get to the "angry" stage of withdrawl but it doesn't seem to be hapening yet! how much more?

Will there be a time when I no longer worry about OM? We have mutual friends and all I need to do is ask about him, but I haven't done it. I am afraid to know the truth... I am afraid of what they could tell me and I have asked them all to NOT talk about OM or anything related to OM. So far everyone is keeping their side of the bargain so why am I feeling like this? is it just because of the holidays? I truly hope so. Until I get these feelings sorted, I am just not happy.


Do you still have thoughts of the OM? Is he totally out of the picture? Perhaps your BH is getting these vibes. Seems to me more time is needed in his healing. Anyway - better to vent your frustrations here. Not sure of BH's sainthood but as for me - I could not handle being in his shoes.
I will try to answer your questions as best as I can....

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McBecca

8 months into our "recovery" my H was just like you are now, he thought i should be doing so much more to forgive him because MY feelings about WHAT HE DID were making him feel bad. (so "heal faster from the pain I caused you so I can feel better faster)

That's not the case at all. You see, I am not asking him to forgive me, I am not asking him to work on the issues of the marriage, all I want is to know if he even wants to stay married. You see, originally (last D-day) he said he wanted to stay married and work on our marriage. A few montsh later he said "I said that because I wanted to keep you from OM" a few months after that he now says "I don't know what I want" so forgive me if I sound impatient but like only ONE other poster here seems to undrstand, there is a child involve who could very well end up withou t a father because BH cannot make up his mind as to what he wants to do. You see, BH said at the beginning he would ONLY stay in our marriage and raise OC IF I keep her from OM. Reluctantly I agreed. There has been NC with OM since then. BH has all my passowrds, access to my PC etc to monitor in case OM is trying to get in touch with me. However, now BH is saying if we divorce, OC will be 100% MY responsibility, in other words he will have no involvement with her. So part of my frustration is that this situation involves a child who may very well grow up WITOUT A FATHER because I keep doing what BH wants but yet, he changes his mind as to what he wants every other week! Sure that's what all BS's do, but don't you think that if he were to seek help professionally or at least spiritually, he could understand better that this is not about OM anymore? that we need to think of the child? T


it doesn't sound to me like you understand that you are going through withdrawl from the affair.

Trust me, the ****** I went through during withdrawl I Will never forget. Am I over it? in many ways yes I am. I have said here before, I see clearly now that OM is NOT an option for me. HOwever because of the baby, it isn't as cut and dry as in your situations where you can truly say that person will NEVER be in your lives again. OM still has the right to pursue custody/visitation. Because I chose to stay married, he has chosen to not purse this. But that could change. IF he knew what was going on, he would purse it.

1. you still see little hope for your future with your H

I agree with you on that. I see no hope. I had hope before, but not anymore.

2. You want all the "good feelings" that you were having in the 'fantasy land" with the OM and your H isn't doing anything to let you feel that way.

I never said I wanted the "good feelings", I just want BH to seek help so HE can begin to heal and we can see if there is any chance for US

your H is doing everything in his power to HEAL HIMSELF enough to find the strength to work on healing your marriage.

How so? I don't see him doing anything but ignoring that big white elephant in our living room.... you know, it doesn't go away if we don't talk about it.
3. you don't seem to be very appreciative of a man who is willing to try to forgive your A, rebuild your marraige and accept a child you had with someone else.

4. you don't sound like someone who realizes the damage that your A has done OR has accepted that recovery will take years of hard work

I DON'T WANT RECOVERY.... there is NO RECOVERY if there is no healing and there is no healing with out help. BH is like a bucket filled with holes, no matter how many deposits I make, until the holes are patched up, it is meaningless.

4. you are filled with RESENTMENT toward your H and you are sounding vey selfish.....you honestly sound to me like a person who would be headed TOWARD an affair-not a person trying to recover from one

Yes, I am starting to become resentful because it isn't just about the A anymore, we have a child to worry about. I have agreed to the deal breakers for him, keep OM away, NC with him whatsoever, BH will raise OC etc. But when he says things like "I am only doing this to keep you from OM" how can I believe that he has her best interest at heart? How can I not resent that he is using OC to keep OM from me and not because he is sincere that he wants to be a father to her? No I am not headed for an A, but most likely to file for D and end this once and for all.
Posted By: McBecca The holidays were HORRIBLE..... - 02/23/07 03:46 PM
I had so much GUILT over OC. See my other post, and it was around that time that BH decided to let me know he was only doing this (staying married) to keep OM from OC. So yes, I had many days where I questioned myself and my feelings. Over time I realized OM is not even part of the problem anymore, that the problem now is whether we can make our marriage work and provide ALL three children the loving home they need
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I totally agree with eav. Please re-read her last two posts to you again and again.

Becca, it's clear that you have no idea in the world just how deeply, deeply wounded your husband is. He is struggling to walk on two broken legs, but you are impatient with him and complaining that he doesn't seem to feel like running a marathon.

Back off.

Let him be.

He will heal in his own way and in his own time.

Just worry about the small positive moment-to-moment things you can do for him.

If/when he wants your help or anyone else's help, he will seek it out.

He needs to heal in his own way. You are only making things worse by demanding that he heal YOUR way.
Mulan

(And these are his own words) he is the BEST at sweeping things under the rug and pretending they did not happen. That is something done in his family and this is how he deals with problems, how they all deal with problems. However, this is NOT something you can just dismiss and go on with life. Sure, we both are GREAT at puting on the "happy couple" show, but how is that healthy? Right now he is PRIME candidate for an affair of his own. He says he doesn't want to deal with this stuff ever again, but ignoring it isn't going to make that happen. Do I just sit here and wait for him to have his own affair so we can be in equal ground? The balance was off BEFORE the A, imagine what is like now?
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However, now BH is saying if we divorce, OC will be 100% MY responsibility, in other words he will have no involvement with her. So part of my frustration is that this situation involves a child who may very well grow up WITOUT A FATHER because I keep doing what BH wants but yet, he changes his mind as to what he wants every other week! Sure that's what all BS's do, but don't you think that if he were to seek help professionally or at least spiritually, he could understand better that this is not about OM anymore? that we need to think of the child?


McB... I would come right out and tell your H the following...

If you ever make a comment like that about OUR daughetr again, I will find an intermediary and contact her bio dad so that he can begin visitation with the child. I am not going to be threatened with having OUR child grow up without a father and if you say it again, I will take that step to protect MY child's future. You have decided to stay and be her father... yet you continue to use her as a way to hurt me. That ends right now... either she is your daughter... or she is not. Pick now and live with your decision.

McB... This is exactly the stuff I warned everyone about when I was run off your thread the first time. So, where are all those people now that were slaming me for my opinion. Are they here helping you? Turns out your H is not being quite the father they built him up to be.... IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO MAKE SURE THAT CHILD HAS A FATHER FOREVER!!! She cannot yet speak for herself... but IMAGINE the hurt she would have knowing what your H has said.

I would make sure you stay in NC and if need be, find someone that can contact the OM (only if the need arises) so that he can begin to develop a relationship with his daughter... AGAIN, THIS IS ONLY IF YOUR H REFUSES TO BE HER DAD... FOREVER.

I am keeping you in my thoughts.

MEDC
Posted By: smartcookie Re: The holidays were HORRIBLE..... - 02/23/07 03:57 PM
McB,

With regard to your original inquiry, click here: "The Truth About Children and Divorce"

Peace,
--SC
Posted By: McBecca Thanks MEDC.... - 02/23/07 04:41 PM
I think part of his fear is that if he divorces me, that I will allow OM to be in OC's life. But what else am I suppose to do? She has a bio-Dad and although he may have many flaws, he didn't have the A with me ALONE. I am just as flawed, but I have repented, I am aware of the issues that allowed me to get involved in the A. I made some very wrong choices, but that's not who I am. BH seems to think that only perfect people deserve to be parents. If that was the case, neither of us would be parents!

I am completely at peace with things now. I really am. I think that is probably why some of these BS seem me as frustrated and in "withdrawl" or angry, but the truth is, THIS IS NOT ABOUT ME anymore. My children come first, not BH or his pain. If that is selfish, I am sorry, but my children will be here long after he is gone. I owe it to them to make things right. My daughter is innocent in all of this and I am SO grateful that I had her regardless of the pain I am in, or BH is in or OM may be in. She is a blessing no matter what.

I realize divorce may just be the consequence to my sin, but divorce and all, my children are still my children and as such I have to protect them and that includes OC. If BH had said from the start that he wasn't going to be able to love her, I would have left without ever looking back. But it was his amazing confession that he wanted to raise her and love her as his own that kept me here, at that point I Realized he is a very special man and that I would do whatever it would take to make our marriage better. All that has changed now, now he doesn't know what he wants to do, now he is not sure he wants to stay married. Am I being selfish by wanting answers? what he decides affect my daughter (OC) more than the other two COM. OF course, I want answers. But some of those folks here seem to think I have to just continue to wait and wait and wait for him to decide he doesn't want us in the first place.
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McB... I would come right out and tell your H the following...

If you ever make a comment like that about OUR daughetr again, I will find an intermediary and contact her bio dad so that he can begin visitation with the child. I am not going to be threatened with having OUR child grow up without a father and if you say it again, I will take that step to protect MY child's future. You have decided to stay and be her father... yet you continue to use her as a way to hurt me. That ends right now... either she is your daughter... or she is not. Pick now and live with your decision.

McB... This is exactly the stuff I warned everyone about when I was run off your thread the first time. So, where are all those people now that were slaming me for my opinion. Are they here helping you? Turns out your H is not being quite the father they built him up to be.... IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO MAKE SURE THAT CHILD HAS A FATHER FOREVER!!! She cannot yet speak for herself... but IMAGINE the hurt she would have knowing what your H has said.

I would make sure you stay in NC and if need be, find someone that can contact the OM (only if the need arises) so that he can begin to develop a relationship with his daughter... AGAIN, THIS IS ONLY IF YOUR H REFUSES TO BE HER DAD... FOREVER.

I am keeping you in my thoughts.

MEDC

MEDC - I couldn't disagree with you more.

I believe this approach is characterized by using the child as a weapon against her H. You are suggesting she threaten her H with contact with OM in order to attempt to force a change in his behaviour (to step up as a father). I do not award father of the year to him and, frankly, that is irrelevant. You are advising McBecca in a way that only makes it more likely she will see OM favorably as compared to her H. She already has some tendencies to do this without your help!

She is upset that her H is not being a good H and will not be a good father. Perhaps -- although I do not necessarily read it that way. However, even assuming this is 100% correct, I believe your approach is the wrong one. Rather, she should worry about the lack of "husband-ing" and "father-ing" first and without regard to OM. Then if, and only if, she decides to divorce should she worry at all about the best way to ensure her children have a father and good example of what a husband should be -- this may or may not include OM. Whether OM decides to enter his child's life through some custody arrangement is not relevant to the discussion. McBecca can not control that, should not control that, and should not even be thinking about the OM. If OM decides to get involved, then and only then McBecca and her H can decide how best to manage that for their family (or McBecca can decide how to manage that for herself if she has divorced her H).

Be very careful in giving this advice. I cannot see any good in what you have recommended.

Todd
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MEDC - I couldn't disagree with you more.
I believe this approach is characterized by using the child as a weapon against her H. You are suggesting she threaten her H with contact with OM in order to attempt to force a change in his behaviour (to step up as a father).

I completely agree with Todd on this. MEDC, I am amazed that you would suggest such a thing. It would only make things far worse and almost certainly lead to a divorce.

I would again tell Becca: *back off.* Stop worrying about how fast your husband is healing or what it's going to lead to or how it might be this way or that way in the future.

Just *leave him alone.* Don't worry about anything except what's happening right now, today, this minute. Stop pushing him and stop telling him how to heal. You do NOT know what he's processing in his head - you might think you know, but you don't.

You don't.
Mulan
I see both of your points.... Mulan and Todd... but I disagree.
First off, I was very clear that there would be NO contact with the OM. Please read my post again.
As far as the rest of it goes, the child deserves a father and if her H does not want the job or threatens to walk away from HIS daughter, then IMO it is time to involve the bio dad in the childs life. That you do not agree is okay... I am equally amazed at your positions as I DO NOT see marriage as being the most important role of a parent. I am just aghast that he would say the child would be without HIM ever again. That shows me that he either doesn't love the child or is using the child as a threat against McB. Neither of those things are acceptable in my book.
And Todd, it is not threatening HIM... it is responding as a responsible parent to his threat to harm his daughter. I could not disagree with your perspective any more strongly... but support your right to voice your opinion. I won't tell you to be careful giving YOUR advice... not because it has any more merit than mine... but because McB is a big girl that can come to her own conclusions.
Just so I am clear, my number one priority is to give advice that I feel is in the childs best interest.... the marriage is secondary to me. I do think McB needs to give her H some room... but that does not mean to tolerate threats that he will leave his daughter. Because any father that can threaten to leave his child is not really a parent to that child in my eyes.

Todd, I haven't seen you around in a while... I hope you are well.

MEDC
MEDC, come on! The best thing these two can do for their daughter, (and the BH is the only father this girl has ever known correct?) is to repair their marriage. Their daughter will be better served by being raised by both her parents in a loving and happy home than by anything else. That means that taking care of the marriage is the #1 priority for the well being of the daughter.
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I would again tell Becca: *back off.* Stop worrying about how fast your husband is healing or what it's going to lead to or how it might be this way or that way in the future.

Just *leave him alone.* Don't worry about anything except what's happening right now, today, this minute. Stop pushing him and stop telling him how to heal. You do NOT know what he's processing in his head - you might think you know, but you don't.

You don't.
Mulan


I agree 100%! I have been following this, and here's what I'VE seen in reading your most recent posts. You are still thinking ME ME ME. You paint it with, "I want what's best for my DD" but it still wreaks of ME ME ME. You haven't given your H enough time to digest this! Yes, it's been 8 months, WHO CARES HOW LONG IT'S BEEN! Everyone heals at their own rates. Imagine how you would have felt if your H pressured you in the same way. No, wait, didn't he do that when he told you to choose? I bet you didn't like it, right? Made you not want to give him the time of day. Think back to the time where H told you he would raise this little girl if you went NC with OM. Remember how you felt? Well, you are now giving him ultimatums. Is it fair for either of you? NEVER! I agree and think that you need to just back off. Let him stew. He is staying in the M, regardless of what "excuses" he's given you! He still loves you. Think of what you've said, "He is only staying M'd to me so I don't go back to OM." He still wants you, otherwise he would have D'd you long ago and let OM have you. I say to do a plan A, fulfill as many ENs as you can. Who cares if you think he's a bucket with holes, you don't have to fill it with water to fill it. Use stones that are bigger than the holes. Get what I'm saying. Stop the pitty party. You are a Christian, right? Well, read the book of Jonah. Notice how he ran away every time, and then, when things didn't go his way(God saved Ninevah) he threw himself a pitty party and told God to kill him! Look at what you HAVE right now! Not what you think you should have.

Ok, enough with the 2x4, but please take what I said to heart. If your H didn't want you anymore, he would be long gone.
Game face... yes, the best thing for this girl is the parents being together. I agree 100%. I think McB needs to give this EVERYTHING she has. Nothing i am saying contradicts that. I think McB owes him her all.... just like this father owes the daughter his all despite his issues with his wife right now... and again, remember, according to McB, these issues existed long before her affair. I still think they shoudl do everything they can to fix things...but HE cannot threaten to leave his daughter. That is the only part that is not okay. For the most part, I think your post hits the nail on the head.
H appears to be in the angry stage. It's right on time.

The last thing you want to do is trap him in this phase with demands, or even just your observations, about how he should be healing.


with prayers,
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Marsh... my answers to you.... - 02/23/07 08:23 PM
Thank you for answering my questions, Becca.

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Because he's told me this.


He told you that when you two have SF that he doesn't feel anything in his heart for you?

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We had a conversation about the time we were separated the first time, he was dating someone and he had to break up with her so we can get back together. He never told me this before but he told me that it was HARD for him to do that (break up with her) and that they even cried together when he broke it off with her. I told him "wow, you must have been in love with her" and he said he doesn't remember. So I said "you never even cried during the birth of your children or for me" his answer was "I don't remember"..... this conversation made me realize of course he is the way he is towards me, we were so freaking young when we got married, we were in HEAT not in love! His heart has never been in this marriage. I do not even KNOW his heart.


<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I thought I read where you said your BS cried and cried when you were in your A....

How can you say he NEVER cried over you? Or that his heart was NEVER in your marriage?

How could you possibly KNOW this, Becca?

Have you ever been able to climb into his mind? His heart?

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Yes, I DO believe God can make something beautiful out of all this crap I created, but he doesn't.


But, Becca, if YOU believe God can restore your M, why do you get upset what your BH believes?

God can restore your M through YOU...

If God restores your marriage, what difference does it make what your BH believed about it?

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Because his version of "staying for the kids" is unhealthy. He wants to do nothing about the issues (related to the A not even about the M) and how can that be healthy? if resentment, anger and frustration is not dealt with, is that going to become LOVE at some point???


I don't think it's unhealthy to stay in the M b/c of the kids.

Becca, why don't you first deal w/ YOUR feelings of anger, resentment, and frustration?

Tear down those walls...and you will see things differently.

Do your half, Becca...

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He said he is doing this just to keep OM away


I thought you said he was doing it for the kids?

Again, his reasons don't matter...he is choosing to stay...why not choose to believe that he does love you? Wants you?

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All I can do is assume and wonder.... he won't share his TRUE feelings or heart.... he told me he has NO feelings..... I find that hard to believe!


You can accept that you just don't know. Rather than assume things. Assuming is disrespectful.

He may just feel numb, b/c he's been hurt so badly.

Give him time.

Don't keep asking him about his feelings..share yours w/ him.

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It matters to me because this is how his family handles issues "sweep" them under the rug and they will disappear.... he is GREAT at that but his anger comes out in other ways.....


Forget about his family.

Focus on his actions....when he crosses your boundaries call him on it. Otherwise, don't assume your marriage will end up like his parent's marriage.

You are 100% responsible for your half of the M...


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He is closed off to anything I do or say....


Is this REALLY true?

Is ANYTHING the word you want to use here?

You said you two are still loving. When you take his hand he holds yours back.

When you initiate things he WILL participate and ENJOY it.

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my actions to him are not sincere or truthful.... he has hard time trusting people and now I have given him a reason.


Becca, if you are acting in truth and sincerity, why isn't THAT enough for you?

Why can't you just give him TIME to believe in you again?

It sounds as though you keep pushing him...pushing him to hurry up and deal w/ his pain in the way YOU think is most helpful to him.

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He had no respect for my opinion BEFORE the A.... now I am might as well be painted on the wall....


Do YOU respect HIS opinions? B/c I'm not seeing it from your posts here.

Change what you are ABLE to change.

Respect his choice to hold his feelings inside himself. Quit trying to force him to do something he does NOT want to do.

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Yes, he told me he is doing this out of his sense of responsibility.... not because he wants to.

I do alot of things out of a sense of responsibility....b/c I WANT to be responsible. It makes me feel good. It makes me happy.

Now, even IF (and that's a big if) his ONLY joy in your marriage is his fullfillment in meeting his responsibilties, it doesn't mean he can't find other joys in the future. He found them in the past.

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No he didn't force me, and I thought I was doing the right thing.... I thought it was my job to do those things....


That's right, YOU chose to do them.

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I guess I expected appreciation


That's right. You expected something in return for doing what you did.

When those expectations didn't get met, you turned them into RESENTMENTS. I know how this works, b/c I did the same thing.

How is THAT fair?

Did you ask your BH that if you do X, then would he do Y?

Anything short of that is disrespectful.

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I see now that God does not want a passive husband and that it is HIS responsibility to do those things as well.


God wants us to BE HOLY as He is holy.

How's THAT coming along for you?

None of us are perfect. You are not the PERFECT wife that God intends for you to be either.

You are in your BH's stuff, Becca.

You don't belong there.

Stay w/ YOUR stuff.

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Because he isn't managing the pain in any way...


Really?

Is he huddled in a corner eating his own hair?

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I don't know.... he won't share, when I bring it up, all I get from him is "I don't know...."


You don't have to know.

You don't have to understand his choices.

HE doesn't have to be able to articulate what he's feeling.

Accept his choices. Obviously you would make DIFFERENT choices if you were him, but Becca, you AREN'T him.

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He is very hard to love. I don't feel a connection to him, there is no intimacy, I really do not know who he is..... he is a stranger to me.


It is IMPOSSIBLE to love someone when you are JUDGING them.
Accept him and his choices and you will feel differently towards him.

I promise you will.

Knock down those walls of judgment you put up, and you will be able to connect w/ him again.

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Because again, if we ignore this, it is NOT going to make it go away.... he wishes that was the case.

Becca, how do you KNOW this?

His mind is still funtioning. He's still thinking...he's still processing things. It's impossible for him not to be.

He doesn't want to share his feelings.

Respect his choice.

Share yours w/ him.

Own your feelings, though.

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No of course not, but to him knowledge is power and if he were to share himself with me, he would be giving me power.....


Ok, good to know.

He doesn't feel safe w/ you yet.

Be patient.

Be loving.

Be accepting.

Inside and out.

Be those things to yourself and to him.

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Yes, there are many reasons why.... and as hard as it may sound, one of them was just to know if he even care. Another reason was that my heart was empty and instead of seeking God to fill it, I seeked another man. I was lonely, depressed and needed to feel loved. All selfish reasons, but those are my reasons.


Now see Becca, that paragraph is rich w/ things to delve into and understand.

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and as hard as it may sound, one of them was just to know if he even care.


You had the A b/c you wanted to find out if your WH cared?

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Another reason was that my heart was empty and instead of seeking God to fill it, , I seeked another man.


So, if your heart was filled w/ God, you wouldn't need your BH to fill it?

If that is true true, then why aren't you seeking for God instead of trying to change your BH's actions?

I'd be willing to bet your choice to have the A is very similar to my choice and other WS choices...

You had expectations that were not met. And over time you turned them into resentments. And then began to feel entitled to have your expecations fullfilled, and there by gave yourself permission to go outside your marriage.

Want to change your marriage for the better?

Stop judging yourself and your BH.

Learn to accept yourself and your BH.

Understand where resentments come from. And learn how to stop them dead in their tracts.

Live in the PRESENT.

Enjoy right now.

Make choices that will build up your M, not tear it down.

Accept your limitations.

Own your stuff.

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I was lonely, depressed and needed to feel loved. All selfish reasons, but those are my reasons.

It isn't selfish to want to feel loved. Feelings aren't bad or good.

You felt lonely and depressed. You wanted someone to make you feel better...make you feel loved.

I understand that need.

Becca, there is a way you can learn to meet your own needs. You don't have to go through another person to do it. When your BH "failed" to make you feel loved, you looked for someone else to do it.

Now that you turned from OM you are right back where you were before...looking to your BH to make you feel better about yourself.

And I'm telling you that you need to learn how to make yourself feel better w/in yourself.

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I do understand the whys now.... which is why our situation right now makes me wonder what on earth I am doing here.


Only you can decide why you are in your M.

You say you want a Godly marriage.

Well, you can start being 1/2 of that equation.

Be who God wants you to be.

Don't focus on the work He's doing in your BH's life.

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Yes. that is absoutely correct. He thinks if he goes to counseling or read the books, he is going to be blamed for some things and he doesn't want that.


Then HEAR him.

Respect his choices.

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No, I will get out of here before I allow that to happen. I've learned that without the connection, closseness and intimacy with him, I might as well leave because that is not the kind of marriage that can succeed.


Becca, You don't only have two choices here. Either stack up resentments or get out of your marriage.

You DO have other choices.

You can learn to stop building resentments against your BH.

When you learn how to do that you can make the connections and have the intimacy w/ him that you crave.

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I am extremly frustrated, emotionally exhausted, and thirsty for companionship.


I know you are. ((((Becca)))

Frustration comes from not fullfilling your own expectations. Resenting yourself. Ouch! You are beating yourself up. It is no wonder that you are exhausted and thirsty to find a fix to your situation.

Start examining your beliefs about yourself.

I bet you have many negative beliefs about yourself.

Stop all DJs. To yourself and to others.

What you do to others you will do to yourself. And vice versa.

Don't call yourself selfish, stupid, mean, empty, ect...

Don't think or say any disrespectful judgments against your BH either.

If you will choose to respect yourself and others, your world will change.

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His view of women is that we are not capable of much other than trouble. We are not efficient, or as intelligent as men are, we are not as driven or as capable as men are. His views are so distorted.


Good to know.

But, I was hoping you could talk to me about his ACTIONS that you find disrespectful, not his thoughts.

I don't judge thoughts, feelings, or intentions...only actions.

I don't want anyone trying to poke around inside my head, so I don't try to poke around in other people's heads.

I want to be respectful.

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I am an obstacle to him. If I wasn't in his life, he would have so much more money and "toys"....

Is this something he said to you?

If so what did you reply to him?

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I committed adultery, the only time when God allows for divorce. He is very well aware of that and he is willing to give m a D if I am the one to file.


And what Biblical grounds do YOU have for filing?

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I don't know how else to change my thinking. Is it wrong for me to want him to heal so he can figure out if we can R or not?


It isn't respectful to want/demand he take YOUR path to recovery and healing.

~ Marsh
Posted By: medc Re: Marsh... my answers to you.... - 02/23/07 08:46 PM
Marsh, I don't always agree with you... but your posts always leave a lot to think about.

Happy Birthday.

MEDC
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MEDC, come on! The best thing these two can do for their daughter, (and the BH is the only father this girl has ever known correct?) is to repair their marriage. Their daughter will be better served by being raised by both her parents in a loving and happy home than by anything else. That means that taking care of the marriage is the #1 priority for the well being of the daughter.

he has changed his mind and now he is "not sure" what he wants.... so what the heck do I do?? Do I keep waiting? in the meantime he throws things like "if we divorce, she is 100% YOUR responsibility" what is that suppose to mean?

Of course a happy, loving home is what is best for the children, ALL THREE, but it requires work and time and he is not willing to do anything to make that happen, or I should say he doesn't KNOW if that's what he wants. When does a BS know they want to work on their M? do they just wake up one day and realize that's what they want? He is very concerned about what our lifestyle would be if we were to D, how that would affect the girls, he says at least right now we BOTH live under the same roof. Again, aren't these signs that he just wants to settle for a marriage of convenience? something to take us through the next 10 or 15 yrs?

I have a hard time understanding him and the fact that he doesn't share his thoughts or feelings make it that much more difficult, add his passive agressive personality and most of the time I wonder who the heck he is? I would rather have him explode, yell and scream than this deadly silence.

It is very easy for people here to say "just sit there and keep taking it" but they forget that I am also human and most days I am at the end of my rope with all this. Yes, those days divorce seems like the best way to end this. I come here for advice and all you people can say is "you are being selfish, you need to give him time, you need to understand him" you know, I don't need to be told WHAT I ALRAEDY know.... if I was PERFECT I wouldn't be in this freaking place in the first place! THose are the same things I get from HIM! no matter what I say or do, his answer to everything is "well, you are the one who had the affair" and that's all of you are doing. I came here originally looking for help and trying to figure out what I did wrong and how to fix it, I have stayed away many times from posting because all I get are judgemental opinions. Everyone seems to act as if they are perfect and I should just shut up and take it. Well, I can't take it anymore. I am spent. I came back trying to get information to give to him to show him that NO you CANNOT stay in a marriage JUST for the sake of the kids and instead once again you people crucify me. Thanks so much. Christ died on the cross for me, you don't need to do it to me over and over again.

MEDC, thank you for understanding my concerns about my daughter. I am a big girl and I do realize that saving my M is what is best, but I can't do it alone and I can't even begin to fix anything until BH is ready. No I am not going to contact OM just because BH cannot make his mind neither am I going to use OC to get him to make up his mind. That is not what I came here for if people can go back and read that original post.
Becca - I understand your frustration. If you meet his EN's I belive given time the situation will change. He is punishing you at the moment - meet his needs and I bet he will crack.

I have not read this whole thread - we are away from home at the moment. I have been wondering how you are.

All the best. Hang in there. You can do this....
He is staying in the M, regardless of what "excuses" he's given you! He still loves you. Think of what you've said, "He is only staying M'd to me so I don't go back to OM." He still wants you, otherwise he would have D'd you long ago and let OM have you. I say to do a plan A, fulfill as many ENs as you can. Who cares if you think he's a bucket with holes, you don't have to fill it with water to fill it. Use stones that are bigger than the holes. Get what I'm saying.

This is what I am saying here. I was not attacking you, but giving it to you like I see it. I did it in such a harsh way because you ARE thinking about yourself here. There are many things you could have done to "find the evidence" of just staying in a M for the children. I'm not the first one to tell you to work on meeting his EN either. Your H honestly doesn't know WHAT he wants right now. And yes, I'm going to say again, GIVE HIM TIME.

I'm sorry if that makes you feel attacked, but it is meant to help and to open your eyes to things you aren't seeing. Mostly the bold print above from my previous post. You are pushing him to make a decision that he's not ready to make at this time. At least you are still in the same home. Do little things to make him feel warm and fuzzy again. It will soon break that deadly silence.
McB... first of all you are welcome.

Second... I do not want you to use your child... I just want him to stop doing it.

And last...I would say this might be a good plan of action..meet his needs for right now. But make sure that you are engaging him in conversation that requires his input. If he was not like this before, I would be saying the same things as the others here. But the FACT is, he was. So, just sitting back is letting your life become more unraveled. You are a long way from having to make any decisions about divorce. There are lots of things that need to happen before that... and counsleing is a must. Let him know that it needs to happen for the good of your family. Let him know that while you love him and want to remained married to him AND WILL NEVER CHEAT AGAIN that you are unhappy with the state of the marriage and that you need help.
If he has a trusted friend that you are also friends with the wife, I would seek out their help. It does not appear as though his family is going to be of any help so you need to find your allies where you can.
But please ... DO NOT TOLERATE him ever again using your daughter as a tool here. That requires a response in my book.
Keep posting your thoughts here. Recognize that many on MB think there is but one way to do things. Everyone here means well and is trying to help. Some people do well at reaching some and not others. There have been a very few FWS here that I have felt moved to understand and want to help... you are one of them.
For now... slow down, breathe and develop YOUR plan. Run it by us if you choose... if you don't like someones response, try and remember they are trying to help... even if they are not helpful to you right then.
You are a good person and mother... let's try and figure this out with the help of the professionals that you are involving in your life.

MEDC
PLEASE read back the words you posted above and try to realize how distorted your thinking is right now!

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there is a child involve who could very well end up without a father


YOU LEFT YOUR MARRIAGE AND YOU TOOK YOUR OTHER TWO CHILDREN AWAY FROM THIER FATHER

have you forgotten them?

YOU WERE WILLING TO DESTROY HIS LIFE AND UPROOT THE LIVES OF THESE TWO CHILDREN

YOUR CONCERN SHOULD NOT BE ONLY FOR THE OMC!!

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we have a child to worry about


YOU SEE YOU DID IT AGAIN

YOU SAID WE (you and OM) HAVE A CHILD (A=ONE) TO WORRY ABOUT

no! you have 3 children

and a D will leave ALL 3 of your children without a family....at least not a family that is together

.............

Becca

i love my h very much. i have done everything you could think of to show him that i want to save our marraige and he is STILL having an A

i will continue to do anything.....well that's not entirely true

i WOULD NOT be able to take my husband back if he had a child with the OW

i just couldn't find it in my heart to ever forgive that much

your husband HAS

and i would think that THIS is even harder for a spouse than even finding out about the affair

he is in SO much pain....but he is doing the BEST he can to do what is best for you and even for YOUR child

your thinking is still very much the thinking of a wayward spouse

you are finding nothing but unhappiness in your marraige AGAIN, you are finding nothing GOOD in your husband AGAIN, you have no RESPECT for HIS NEEDS

so you WITHDREW from him and you are again

this kind of thinking IS what led to your affair

consider this

now your H is UNHAPPY in the marriage, he is finding nothing GOOD about you or what you did to him, and he has lost RESPECT for YOU

he has withdrawn from you

what would you have needed when you were at this point in order for you to STOP yourself from having the A

if your husband had plan A'd you....maybe your feelings would have changed and the awful things that followed could have been avoided

but he didn't KNOW how you were feelings because you didn't tell him before you choose to have an A

you know how he is feeling!!

you can PLAN A HIM and give him time to deal with the pain in his own way and in his own time.....if you meet his needs, you will create deposits in his love bank and he will be more willing to meet your needs
McBecca - I just wanted to offer support. I totally know how you feel when you say your H won't even discuss, heal or work with you towards a better M. It's so upsetting to endure a bad M prior to an A, weather the storm of an A and then to go right back to the same bad M after the A and the storm subsides. From my perspective, you can be the lighthouse until the cows come home, but if he doesn't do his part it's not going to matter. It will only prolong you being unfulfilled in a M and you overcompensating for his lack of efforts. My situation has drug out for 2 years. I am now starting to realize that it has been two painful years that didn't need to happen if I would have just gone with my gut instinct and left.

Hang in there, you will find your answers and be at peace. I fully understand how upsetting it is from the standpoint of being a mother and wanting so desperately just to be happy and do right by them. I'm struggling with that very issue right now. An H that loves his kids dearly, but doesn't treat their mother right OR live up to his potential as a father. Just wanted to offer my support. I sense that you're struggling quite a bit. Keep your chin up.
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I see both of your points.... Mulan and Todd... but I disagree.
First off, I was very clear that there would be NO contact with the OM. Please read my post again.
As far as the rest of it goes, the child deserves a father and if her H does not want the job or threatens to walk away from HIS daughter, then IMO it is time to involve the bio dad in the childs life. That you do not agree is okay... I am equally amazed at your positions as I DO NOT see marriage as being the most important role of a parent. I am just aghast that he would say the child would be without HIM ever again. That shows me that he either doesn't love the child or is using the child as a threat against McB. Neither of those things are acceptable in my book.
And Todd, it is not threatening HIM... it is responding as a responsible parent to his threat to harm his daughter. I could not disagree with your perspective any more strongly... but support your right to voice your opinion. I won't tell you to be careful giving YOUR advice... not because it has any more merit than mine... but because McB is a big girl that can come to her own conclusions.
Just so I am clear, my number one priority is to give advice that I feel is in the childs best interest.... the marriage is secondary to me. I do think McB needs to give her H some room... but that does not mean to tolerate threats that he will leave his daughter. Because any father that can threaten to leave his child is not really a parent to that child in my eyes.

Todd, I haven't seen you around in a while... I hope you are well.

MEDC


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I see both of your points.... Mulan and Todd... but I disagree.
First off, I was very clear that there would be NO contact with the OM. Please read my post again.
As far as the rest of it goes, the child deserves a father and if her H does not want the job or threatens to walk away from HIS daughter, then IMO it is time to involve the bio dad in the childs life. That you do not agree is okay... I am equally amazed at your positions as I DO NOT see marriage as being the most important role of a parent. I am just aghast that he would say the child would be without HIM ever again. That shows me that he either doesn't love the child or is using the child as a threat against McB. Neither of those things are acceptable in my book.
And Todd, it is not threatening HIM... it is responding as a responsible parent to his threat to harm his daughter. I could not disagree with your perspective any more strongly... but support your right to voice your opinion. I won't tell you to be careful giving YOUR advice... not because it has any more merit than mine... but because McB is a big girl that can come to her own conclusions.
Just so I am clear, my number one priority is to give advice that I feel is in the childs best interest.... the marriage is secondary to me. I do think McB needs to give her H some room... but that does not mean to tolerate threats that he will leave his daughter. Because any father that can threaten to leave his child is not really a parent to that child in my eyes.

Todd, I haven't seen you around in a while... I hope you are well.

MEDC


MEDC:

This is what you said in the earlier post...
"If you ever make a comment like that about OUR daughetr again, I will find an intermediary and contact her bio dad so that he can begin visitation with the child."

"IF YOU do X, THEN I WILL do Y."

This is 100% a threat. Yes, a threat.

You say it is not because it is in response to another threat. This is just flawed logic. If a burglar grabs one of my children and threatens to harm them, I may just tell him I will hunt him down like a dog until there is no breath left in me. I just threatened him. It may be reasonable for me to threaten him like this, but it is still a threat.

I pulled this definition for threat off the net...
"A threat is also an explicit or implicit message from a person to another that the first will cause something bad to happen to the other, often except when certain demands are met."

You advise McB to give her H and explicit message that she will cause him harm (taking away the child) except when her demand that he be a father is met.


"I am not going to be threatened with having OUR child grow up without a father and if you say it again, I will take that step to protect MY child's future."

This would be seriously disrespectful! Especially the part about "MY" child. Wow! And by the way...this is yet another threat!

In your post you also say: "IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO MAKE SURE THAT CHILD HAS A FATHER FOREVER!!!"
I agree with this word added before FATHER ==> the word is GOOD. This is important because your post assumes that the bio dad/OM will be that good father. That is unknown. As an adoptive parent, I am quite aware of the fact that bio parent does not necessarily mean good parent. I believe this distinction invalidates your entire argument. We do not disagree that this child (and the other two) need a good father. I do, however, strongly disagree in your assumption that the bio dad is the best choice...especially given all the other problems that that particular man brings to the table as the OM. I do not suggest that the bio dad does not have rights - he does 100% and may exercise them at his discretion. However, to suggest McB make the decision to involve him as a threat to her H is ludicrous.

Imagine for a moment that McB took your suggestion and made that threat. Her H responds negatively. She carries out the threat and contacts OM/bio dad only to find he is really not interested in being a father after all. Where does that leave the child? Where does that leave McB? Where does that leave their other two children? Danger, danger, danger! Her H may not choose to step up and be a good father, but McB should not even be tempted to contact OM by taking your advice.

BTW - I do not defend McB's H here. He clearly has said things that should never be said about his children.

Todd
Quote
"I am not going to be threatened with having OUR child grow up without a father and if you say it again, I will take that step to protect MY child's future."

This would be seriously disrespectful! Especially the part about "MY" child. Wow! And by the way...this is yet another threat!


Todd, once again I will say that I think you are dead wrong. I am not tr=ying to get your agreement...only to offer what I feel is the best advice for the poster. But in response to the above... the "our" changes to "my" in response to HIS actions... not hers. As I said earlier... I see your point, I just do not agree... and I really won't. I have been following her sitch for months and have a firm concept of what should be done... IMO. You have yours to which you are entitled. I will agree to disagree.

I make no assumption about the bio dad... just like I don't about bio moms. I give the benefit of the doubt to parents until such a time as they no longer deserve it. that is why I have full custody of my child and my ex has supervised visitation.

Again, I will agree that we disagree and will continue to post what I feel is the best advice to this thread.
I hope you are well.

MEDC

edited to add...

Quote
"IF YOU do X, THEN I WILL do Y."

This is 100% a threat. Yes, a threat.


This I find way off base. IF YOU do something to hurt my child... I will do what I need to do to protect my child. A response to a threat is not always a threat. I would state this as a matter of fact.

Again, I see your point... I just do not see it your way.
MEDC:

Feel free to disagree with me. However, recognize that what you advocate goes against MB principles. As such, it is the wrong advice here IMO. I hope McB listens to other viewpoints and I also hope she ignores your advice. I do agree with you -- to disagree, that is. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Todd
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Marsh... my answers to you.... - 02/24/07 03:55 AM
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Marsh, I don't always agree with you... but your posts always leave a lot to think about.

Happy Birthday.

MEDC

Thank you, MEDC.

I agree w/ you more often than I disagree w/ you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

~ Marsh
Becca,

You posted this thread w/ expectations.

You didn't get those met.

I understand your disappointment.

But, would you please consider that you were given something BETTER than what you expected?

Come back tomorrow and re-read the posts here.

You saw judgment from others, but I saw people reaching out to you. Trying to give you a NEW way to see things.

I didn't see anyone tell you to "just sit there and keep taking it."

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they forget that I am also human and most days I am at the end of my rope with all this.


Really? Do you really think anyone forgot you were human?

Do you really believe anyone couldn't read your frustration in your posts?

Quote
all I get are judgemental opinions. Everyone seems to act as if they are perfect and I should just shut up and take it.


I didn't see anyone on here "acting as though they were perfect". Or acting as though you should shut up and take it.

Quote
I came back trying to get information to give to him to show him that NO you CANNOT stay in a marriage JUST for the sake of the kids and instead once again you people crucify me.


You are trying to prove his opinion wrong. Why?

What you really want is for him to tell you he loves you, wants you, and wants your marriage, correct?

And all we're saying is to look at his actions....they are telling you that he DOES love you and want you.

If you will choose to believe that, you won't need to hear those words, b/c you'll KNOW/BELIEVE that he does love you.

Your choice.

Quote
instead once again you people crucify me.


Re-read the posts again, Becca.

No one wants to pile more guilt on top of you...or hurt you.

I see love and concern for you.

Becca,

If your BH told you he wants to stay in the marriage, would you push him to read marriage books and go to MC?

B/c I think he might be telling you he doesn't know what he wants and/or is staying ONLY for the kids as a way to keep you from pressuring him to "work" on the marriage.

You can choose to believe he loves you, or you can choose to believe he doesn't.

Your choice.

~ Marsh
Great posts Todd and eav!

~ Marsh
McBecca

you asked about children and divorce

i believe there are chapters in every "save your marraige" book that talks about the harm done to children by divorce.

here's a chapter from my life that they could have include in any of those books


I came from a very broken family.....

my earliest memory of my "family being together"

my parents fighting all of the time....bad fights....

my father smashing all of the car windows with a log during one...... being thown out and locked out during another....and knocking, pleading and begging all night long to please let them him home

things like that and worse

was that good for me, my sisters and brothers?

of course not

what was worse?

my mother, and all of us girls seeing my father's car parked and my brother bike parked in the driveway of the married woman that we were soon to discover was having an A with my father.....had been for years....since BEFORE the fighting started

my sister's and brother's earlier memories are of my parents during happier times before the A ruined our lives

i don't have any of those memories

my father left us......6 children to be raised by a stay at home mom with no job skills

he moved on to his new life....he moved in with his married girlfriend and helped to raise her 3 children

sure, we got to visit dad.....and this new family of his

and we felt like we were "visiters"...like they were his children and we were kids he cared about

they got to spend birthdays, christmas and easter mornings with him

we got to visit

but on holidays, my father would usually come through with his child support for a change so we were okay (he "ment well but he was already taking care of a family"....so he said)

they got new clothes, new furniture, a new car

we got to live off welfare

but we were okay....hey we got food from the food bank and clothes from the salvation army

they got braces.....we had medical assistance

they got lunch AND ice cream money.....we got to use the lunch passes that said "free" nice and large for everyone to see.....at least until you wise up and just stop eating so no-one knows you can't pay for lunch

they had both parents....and their mom could stay at home because my dad was supporting her family

we got....a mom who was so depressed from the A and then the D that she barely got out of bed.....so i was raised by my older sisters for years....many years

my father was the man i idolized before he left....i was waiting at the door when he came home every evening...i was the one who curled up on the couch to sit beside him when he watched tv

he left when i was 6......i had a breakdown and ended up in therapy for years

i spent the rest of my life trying to please my dad.....to get his attention

but he had a baby with the OW soon after he left.....and she took my place in his life

my sisters.....well they were tired of taking care of our house and raising us kids......

as soon as they were old enough, they tried to find a guy to get them away from all of this

all 3 of my older sisters ended up pregnant, unmarried, and living off welfare

but it was okay.......they got away from the h*ll they were living in didn't they?

one of them.....she will never get married...she hates men...not because of anything that was done to her.....but because the first man who was supposed to show her love, kindess, and care.....

well he instead showed her that men can't be trusted, they will hurt you, and they will not take care of you

me......well.....the man who i tried so had to get love and attention from......he taught me through his actions that it's not worth it to try to please someone and to try earn thier love.......it's either there or it isn't

and that it's your spouses job to make you HAPPY, to take care of you! to do whatever they need to do to keep you there

because that's what he said my mother DIDN'T do.....and that's his reasons for his A and the D

he taught the values that i took into my marriage....you see, i was smart....i found this really great guy who didn't believe in divorce....his whole family was against it

so i KNEW an A and D would never ruin my life again

i found a guy who believed marraige was forever and you did whatever it took to keep your spouse happy and at home

i didn't even bother to put any effort into earing my H's love too long past the I DO's

why bother.....

but i still tried to please the man who had deserted me long ago....i would show him what a hard worker i am and how i wasn't going to end up like my sisters

so i worked hard....long into the nights

hey my dad was finally proud of me!

but my H? well...he gave and gave and gave....and got lonelier and lonelier

and guess what.....HISTORY REPEATED ITSELF

and my life is now destoyed again

and in case your wondering if there was a happy ending?

my mother never really came out of her depression or had a happy life after my father's A

she never remarried and still loves him to this day

my father never did marry the OW.....they both got divorced but then......nothing

they stayed together for awhile because of the child they had together

then they went thier separate ways

my father tried again to find love

with another married woman

she went back to her husband after 6 months

he sunk into such a depression and said he finally understood how my mother felt

his last years of his life were spent alone and so filled with regret.........

and he told all of us....his biggest regret

was that he never tried to save his marriage

that he never "did right" by his kids

that he "never should have left your mother"

because all of our lives would have turned out so very different

are we the average family who lives through an A and a D.....maybe not

some are worse and some are better i'm sure

but i can tell you that before the A and the D.......my parents and my older sisters all have memories of an "average family" that still had a chance to have a better life than the ones we all ended up with

so from my experience

i believe that it is better for children to be raised in a home with two parents who are providing for the care and welfare of each other as well as ALL of the children

AND

i believe that spouses owe it to themselves and thier children to put everything they can into making this happen

as much as it takes.....for as long as it takes

FOR your children
My goodness, eav...

Your post brought tears to my eyes.

I wish that my ex could understand what he has done, and continues to do, to his children.

{{{eav}}}
thank you Olanya

i've actually been considering deleting it ever since in posted.

i don't know if it will help at all but i really feel strongly about the reality of a D on the whole family.

i would hate to see McB make a mistake that might end up changing the lives of all of the people she cares so much about

and not for the better

and then living to regret it

i really think it's too soon for her to stop trying

for everyone's sake

i just wanted to find a way to help her to see the perspective of someone who has lived through this

many lives are destoyed from a D

and the children get hurt the worst
Please do not consider deleting that post, eav. It's probably one of the most moving things I've ever read here. Thank you for taking the time to write it and post it.
Mulan
eav,

I could not have described the pain of divorce and the loss of a father nearly as well as you have. I second the story with my own. Similar in many ways.

McBecca, I haven't posted to you, at least as far as I can remember. I think we can all agree that the frustration you describe is palpable, and I feel tension when I read your posts, real tension. The best advice you have gotten is to love your children, ALL of them, and to GIVE. Put the taker away. Things may not be sunshine and lollipops, for now, but they are stable for the children. This can give you time to focus on your M. Give love.

I'm in the very early stages of recovery. I am a BS, who is back in Plan A. I have to hear that my H felt like he was cheating on his OW by coming back to me. I've heard him talking about how worried he is for losing HER love. It's horrific, the things that a BS endures. Please consider what your H does, not what he says. Actually, consider not talking about your R AT ALL for a while. I think it causes you great pain to HEAR that your H isn't THERE YET.

Time, time, time. It's a game of endurance, a marathon. You can do this, we know you can. I'm so sorry about the pain that you must suffer now, but things will get better, if YOU get in the race, stop worrying about whose running along with you. Have fun with you kids, include their DAD. Kiss him, touch him, because YOU WANT TO; don't think about what he's THINKING, just do...

Good luck to you, McBecca (you do deserve to be happy; we all do)
this has bugged me

[color:"green"] parents staying together JUST for the sake of the kids [/color]

and Eve's post brought it all home ...

YES
it is FINE to stay together
"JUST" for the sake of the kids

but you do MORE than "sit_ stay" ... like a dog behaving it's master

you do whatever it takes for as long as it takes

to make it work

and Becca .... if you get scared "it won't work out" so you bail out now ... this will be a SLAP to the faces of your children ... it is TOUGH to recover

YES
you stay "just" for the kids at first ... because that is your job ... to make your family safe/intact/emotionally whole

I stayed "just" for the kids at first .... now they are big kids (20 & 17) ... and I "stay" because ~~~> I am a MARRIED WOMAN ... I know who I am ... a MARRIED WOMAN.... do you know who you are?

Pep
Divorce is not something people will easily advocate here, so understand, you may not get many people telling you that it's okay to give up, not yet.

"You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you just might find, you get what you need"
i do hope it helps MacB

i guess it's my life's story.....the story of lives ruined by A's and D

and the legacy continues
McB~

I think you need to focus on what your H is doing and not on what he is saying or lack thereof.

He's *there*, he hasn't left and furthermore he's being a father to your baby, (his threats notwithstanding, because imo they are the words of a hurt man.. his only offense/defense... words).

A man, who you have described as viewing women as obstacles does NOT *do* what he's doing ---> staying w/ the obstacle who is now not only an obstacle, but an obstacle that betrayed him in the worst way. McB, it doesn't add up.

He's still there-- don't fret over why he says he's there. Don't even fret over the fact he says he doesn't know how long he's staying. Again... words.

Until he leaves ---> He's there.

While he's there, this is your golden opportunity to show him by YOUR *doings*, you're there too and you want the M.
i'm wondering if McB is still around and reading. i hope she's stilltrying to find her way and looking for help instead of giving up

ps

thanks for the kind things you've said about my post

it was very hard for me to write. i hope it gets though to her just how D does effect children
You've come a long way Eve

thank you for sharing

Pep
Eav,

I'd also like to thank you for your post. I grew up in a very stable family but since I am now divorced, the effect of divorce on children is very much of interest to me. I found your post very insightful and really appreciate you sharing what must have been very difficult to write about, with us.

Taker Care,

Miker
McB, I wanted to let you know I know how you feel about some of the things you are struggling with, only I am 16 months out. My BH is not interested in anything emotionally intimate, and this is not a DJ because he has told me. I so want to be connected with him emotionally, but he thinks that is a "fantasy" or to use his latest reference to it, "a pipe dream". I am not "allowed" to bring up my almost ONS, but he can take the occasional pot shot at me. It is so hard to keep emotionally investing in a M when you get nothing back, or hardly anything.

I too am scared by him just sweeping it under the rug, it will come back out one day. I am scared he is nurturing a tiny little fire of resentment, anger, and entitlement that can so easily be turned into a raging, destructive out of control fire at any time. I don't know what to do about this.

Anyway, I just wanted to let you know there is someone else feeling some of the same out here.
rubydoo,

NO disrepect should be thrown from EITHER one of you in your M! Have you established any boundaries in your life, of the type of behavior that is acceptable toward you, and then enforced them.

I hear the pain that you and McBecca are expressing, but I wonder if you are repeating similar behavior from the M prior the A's. 16 months is a long time to see NO results, especially if you are encorporating the MB principles. REALIZE that neither one of you HAVE to continue going down the path of Marital UNBLISS, but it requires a strong stomach and strong heart to withstand what you MUST do in order to recover. Having an A does not give your respective H's reasons to mistreat you, but it may cause the detachment that you are witnessing.

Plan A them until you can Plan A NO MORE! YOU have to initiate things, take the lead or lead them to the front with you. Why do you feel the need to bring up the ONS, why not just talk about what led YOU to it, not about the deed itself. If your BH doesn't want to talk about it, what purpose does it serve for you to. Discussing the problems is one thing, but reminding him that he didn't matter AT ALL just smarts over and over again, and it keeps the wound FRESH.

Again, I can hear the frustration, but I don't hear whats BEEN DONE to improve YOURSELVES. I've had a lot of self-discovery during the last 2YEARS. I have made some good changes and my patience is much higher these days, AND I'VE SET BOUNDARIES, and am learning how to enforce them.

My TAKER had to be put down in order to begin recovery, and will have to take a back seat to my M.
Hey SL! When I said I wasn't "allowed" to talk about the ONS, I was not referring to the deed, but anything surrounding, like what led me to it, how I feel about it, what I am doing now to prevent it in the future, what I can do to help him, how he is feeling, etc. He can not even stand the fact that I am in IC.

What I have done to improve myself, well, I've been in IC for almost 3 years now. I have read books. I read here and other support boards. I have figured out what led me to that possible ONS.

I am sure I have let my taker influence me more than I should. I haven't really plan A'ed 100 %, but I have made some changes.

Right now, I am still in self-hate mode. Even after 3 years of IC, I still hate myself so much. I am so disappointed in myself. One of the last times we talked about it, he told me that he hasn't forgiven me and that staying married to me was a joke. But then the next day, it was like that whole conversation didn't take place. He acted like nothing happened, which is how he acts about all of this. The only time he mentions any thing remotely related to this, it is a potshot.

I think I have made some good changes, but I realize I need to make more. It is just so frustrating and seems hopeless when my BH will not get involved. He thinks our marriage is fine, when clearly it is not. I want so much more for us and he thinks what I want is a pipedream.

Sorry to t/j your thread McBecca.
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