I posted this in the Plan A/B forum but there's just not much traffic there.

Here’s my story. The gist of it is my WW is having an affair with a 50 year old con man who has no job, no money, no car, no house, is an alcoholic, has several DUI’s , a criminal past, and is a second cousin of hers.

My WW is 34, college educated stay at home mother who is also a horse trainer. We have a daughter who is 3 and a son who will soon be 6. I am 34 with a very well paying occupation.

Around June of last year, she was training a horse that was causing her a lot of frustration. The OM offered to help her with it. Within a month or so, she had done a very nice job with the uncontrollable horse and was justifiably proud of what she had accomplished.

From Summer of 07 to Spring of 08, my WW and the OM did a lot for each other with each other’s horses. Starting around March of 08, she and the OM would stay up from 10pm-3am breeding the WW’s pony stallion. This would go on for weeks at a time through March, April, and May of this year. Since he was her cousin, and my WW comes from a family of horsemen, I knew brutal hours were part of the business and didn’t think much of it.

Also in May and June, my wife would go and help the OM with his horses – she would talk about the really neat moonlit rides she went on with him. Around the last week of June, the OM’s father successfully sues to get him kicked off his farm. So, the OM calls my WW to come to his rescue. Lo and behold, the folks that lived in our tenant house moved out in April and it’s been empty for a couple of months. In exchange for doing work around the farm, he can live in the house since he is family.

Within two days, my WW literally turns on me. Since the OM is doing the chores I usually do around the farm, I don’t have anything to do around the house and the WW is getting frustrated with me due to being egged on by the OM. When it is just me, the WW and the kids, everything is like old times. When the OM is around, the WW is brutal to me.

Throughout the month of July, I would come home from work and the WW and OM would be in MY kitchen making dinner like a young couple in love. My 3 year old daughter would see the look on my face, grab my hand, lead me to the family, room, sit me down next to her and say “My Daddy”. Every time I asked what was going on, the WW would tell me I was nuts.

On July 25th, I got a vasectomy. We had talked about this for a couple of years now. Three days later, she says she is not in love with me anymore, not sure if she ever loved me, the marriage has been a sham etc. etc etc. I suspect something is up with her and the OM but she says I’m crazy, he’s my cousin, etc, etc, etc. Throw in some deep money issues due to getting in over our heads with the horse farm and for next three weeks she just berates me in front of the kids while she and the OM kind of just smirk at each other.

On August 19th, I catch them naked in bed together. At this point, I call the OM’s father and he tells me that the OM has done this about half a dozen times in the last 10 years. He never thought he would be bold enough to do this to a family member. His MO is to make friends with the wife and husband, help the wife with her horses, make her feel good about herself while observing where the weaknesses are in the marriage.
After a few months, he’s a good friend of the family, the family needs work done around the place and he is invited to stay while he does the work. It’s at this point where he makes his big move on the wife and splits the family apart. This is exactly what he did.

The next day, he convinces my wife to file a Protection For Abuse order against me meaning I can’t talk to her, go on the farm, or see the kids for a year. Unfortunately in Delaware you don’t really need any evidence to do this. As a result, I am forced to get an apartment which exacerbates our money situation. So at this point, I am kicked out of the house, the OM is living in the house with my WW and DS and DD.

August 29th (10th anniversary) we have the hearing on the PFA. The WW pulls some shenanigans to get the hearing delayed to Sept 24. This was actually a good thing because it gave me a chance to rally her family to help bust them apart (whose mother would want their daughter to run off with her 50 year old 2nd cousin?).

In the meantime, this really gives me a chance to regroup. I bought SAA, went to counseling, on 9/22/08 I had an appointment with Jennifer. She gives me some GREAT pointers for the PFA hearing.
- first time I see her, smile and say Hi
- look GOOD – I’ve lost 30 pounds in the last two months, grew a goatee, etc She’s been bugging me for a while to lose weight.
- be emotionally strong, smile a lot, be a nice guy and someone she wants to be with.
- NO LOVE BUSTERS, DISRESPECTFUL JUDGEMENTS, ETC
- Try and angle it so she HAS to spend time with me (we haven’t seen or talked to each other than email nasty grams sent by her since 8/19)

Any ways, she wants to conference with our lawyers. For the first 30 minutes or so she is deep, deep, deep in the fog. In fact, she make zero sense when she is talking. Both her and my lawyer think she is crazy. After awhile, she breaks down crying (she has shown ZERO remorse up to this point). A few minutes later, we start talking like old times. The attorneys leave us alone. She breaks down again and she and I hug for a minute or so. (she didn’t even hug me when she said she wanted a divorce). She also said I look great. We talk for about 2.5 – 3 hours alone. In the last half hour or so, the OM comes down to the café where we were talking. Her attitude switches. She starts justifying what a great guy he is, how he is misunderstood, etc. I almost bite a hole in my lower lip but did not drop any LB’s or DJ’s. Plus we both agree to drop the PFA’s.

Any ways, we agree for no formal arrangements with the kids yet, plus with the financial situation the way it is, both of us NEED to sit down at least once a week and talk about money going out and what we will pay and what will be let go.

At this point, I am slowly building a bridge to her and she appears to at least have climbed back onto the fence.

When evaluating where I am at this point, I am in plan A which really is not working all that great - the WW still thinks there is nothing wrong with her actions and behaviors. However, since she is known in the horse world, she DOES NOT want me to contact anyone in the horse industry which shows she is ashamed with what she has done.

Jennifer has recommended I go to plan B in a week or two. At this point, I agree with her. Even though the hearing went really well, she unleashed a brutal verbal attack the other day which is leaving me questioning my wisdom of trying to salvage the marriage.

The verbal attack is not real. It is just a way to try to hurt you. I did the same thing to my WW and she brought this up to the MC. MC says it is a way to try to hurt the person but it is not how they really feel.

Don't let that stop you from R. She is deep in fog. She is showing signs of wanting to work it out. Waffling. Should I, shouldn't I and so on. I would keep up with PLAN A.

EDIT: Stay away from the attorneys. They are in it to fight, not for you to recover your marriage. R = NO $$ for them. My WW filed D and once attorneys were involved, it got bad. I managed to PLAN A long enough to get her to drop the D and R is going well.

Hi SB,

OMG! What a cad!! To the nth degree!

Your situation sounds promising, though, especially after the A ends. Did Jennifer advise you to expose? You will be encouraged to do that here by many.

This part of your story got me right in the heart:



I feel so BAD for you, SB!! I'm sorry you are going through this nastiness!

But here you will get great advice to recover your marriage.

Charlotte

Follow Jennifer's lead. Plan A hard for a week or two and slip into the Plan B darkness.

You have come a long way in just 3-posts. I remember your first post to IDNWAD. We have not been able to get through to him at all.

Sorry you are here, but it sounds like you are on board with a strong plan.

We are meeting tommorrow to discuss financials at the local Dairy Queen. It will be interesting if she shows up with the OM.If she does, I am out of there.

Unfortunatly with the PFA's, lawyers have been deeply involved. She wasn't happy I filed for adultry . One bright spot over the last couple of days is the OM broke into his father's place and pushed him around. Rumor has it the OM now has a warrant for his arrest for Criminal Tresspassing and Assault. If and when the OM is served (still not conviced his father actually pressed charges), I will file a restraining order against him to keep him away from my kids.

As for exposure, this has been exposed pretty well - her whole family knows, my whole family knows. As of right now, she is not talking to her identical twin sister or her mother.

As part of the carrot and the stick, she delusionally wants to keep our horse farm - unforunatly for her, she needs my salary to do it. Hopefully by going over the numbers with her, she will start to see the light.

Not all attorneys are in it for the money. There really ARE some that care. Just sayin'.

Hey, all that sounds good, SB!

I think that the horse farm will probably be the thing that gets to her. I have horses myself, so I can totally see that coming! I will be surprised if that's not the thing that finally breaks the fog!

Charlotte

SB,

Disgusting, puke, glad I'm not your children's grandfather. Sorry and hope you can pull your life back together.

Was talking to my wife about her pastor taking in marginal people told her it was a really bad idea. People with nothing to lose can do you no good, it's unfortunately that way. Think I'll show her your post.

Amazing how many women have no idea how good they have it financially.

God Bless
NJ

Hey there S

I remember your sitch. Aren't you so glad that you consulted the pros.

Your positive approach sounds just the ticket. But I have to ask,
does WW like the goatee?

I hope it works for you but don't hold out much hope. I tried this with my WW and it failed. Remember that the fog prevents them from seeing things clearly. I laid everything out for my WW about the house, car, kids, her not having to work now and I explained how she is making a huge mistake. Her only response was "I know I am" and she filed anyway. As mentioned, the D was dropped and we are in R but it is only because of PLAN A.

Yeah, but did you have a horse farm?

Horses are a very powerful force.

Charlotte

Dancing_Machine,

You are sooo correct about horses being very, very powerful. In fact, this is what caused the affair as well. You can kind of say the horses are one of her top two EN's.

The OM's MO is to get the wife to start to feel good about her riding, tell them they can go far with him etc, etc. He is a GREAT talker. She told me there was no passion - how she loved the midnight rides he took her on, etc etc etc. He basically used the horses against me since I am not a natural horseman - I just pay for them!

Yes she does - she says it makes me look younger. Plus, before the hearing I asked all the women at work if I looked ridiculous or not and they love it too.

Her identical twin sister likes it a lot also.

A couple of updates. The OM will be served with his arrest warrent on Tuesday for felony trespassing and felony assuault on his 73 year old father. Once that happens, I will file at the courthouse to get him permanently evicted from the farm.

I would imagine my wife would be advised NOT to fight the eviction - it would not look good in a custody battle. That way, I can actually start a real plan A and try and at least get the financial house in order. Her family and I have all noticed she is a very, very different person when she is around him. With him out of the picture, I can start rebuilding the marriage again without outside interference.

Since your wife does not want her actions and the affair becoming known to others in her industry....use the threat of exposure as a tool. I am not sure why she is worried about this other than being embarrassing but if it works so be it.

Be careful blaming everything on the OM...yes he has manipulated this very well and you may ONLY be saved due to his shooting himself in the foot with his assault on his father. Your wife for some reason chose to be with him over you and took false action to remove you from the home and your children. Something is not right there with her!!!

Don't assume that this warrant will remove him from your home as well, make sure a lawyer agrees that action will be successful on this. People tend to be slapped on the wrist sometimes.

If he is removed, then first get the wife to drop the charges on you.

You are right about something not being right with her - a lot of her fog talk has been really, really out from left field. Plus, once I was off the farm, he conviced her to bring his 10 horses over. At the courthouse she told me she was going to help train his horses free of charge so he can sell them and pay off his back child support! Also, both of us agreed to have the PFA's dropped against us.

Who pays for the day to day running of the farm that he can get away with this?

The LLC which is in both of our names pays for the day to day running of the farm. On Monday, she called and said she had no cash because she had used the business check card like a credit card! It's the beginning of the month - she'll have board money coming in.

The OM's deal was he'll help with chores in exchange for room and board. His horses were not part of the original agreement. They showed up after I was kicked off the farm. I'm also in the process of 1099'ing the OM to the IRS - he entered into a barter agreement and the free rent, food, and board of his horses are taxable income. With his horses on the farm, it comes out to about $7000 per month in taxable income.

Sorry for all of the questions!

After what happened on Tuesday, I DO NOT want to answer the phone when she calls - I just let it go to voice mail then call her back.

On Tuesday, she left a message talking about the kids school, etc - a nice message. I call her back and she just berates me on the phone for no reason - it was quite nasty. Things like comparing SF with me vs him etc, etc. It gave me a chance to take really good notes though!

So, when she calls, should I just man up and answer it or go to VM to see what her mood is?

No, what you should do is expose her to her peers. The one thing she does not want. Then get an order of protection against OM for your children. Doesn't he have a warrant against him.

Your children need you. Stop playing Mr. Nice Guy so you don't upset your wife. Time to man up and protect your kids.

The exposure should handle itself - he is going to be arrested on Tuesday which is my wife's big lesson day on the farm. As for the kids, as soon as he is arrested I am filing the order of protection against him for the kids.

If this business is a jointly owned one....how does she legally enter into a barter agreement resulting in services for no money without your consent???

I was thinking regarding the new matter of boarding his horses.

I'm a little engrossed in your sitch:

You've said that a very important EN for WW is the horses. How about you? You have already informed us that you are NOT one for moonlight canters. It appears that OM is more competent than you around the farm. Do you WANT to get up to speed?

I'm guessing from the age of your daughter that yours is a comparatively young marriage. And still your wife wandered. Suppose that there was something else that piqued her much further after reconciliation, (maybe the SF) how can you depend on this woman?

Then there's your daughter: Would separation at this young age be less traumatic?

What was your relationship like with WW prior to interference by OM? Think hard.

Are you fighting to regain your WW because she is/was worthwhile or because she is territory?

Weigh all these things carefully, separation now could prove cost effective now rather than later, and I'm not just talking money.

Would you believe that I'm pro-marriage after asking questions like these?

She and I built the farm up from scratch - while I'm not great with the horses, I am a good horse husband (as seen by our boaders and other trainers at shows)and always willing to muck a stall or fill water buckets .

I continue to think long and hard - the problem is I need to bust up the affair just to get the divorce moving along. At this point I am not even sure if I want to reconcille - the horses have ALWAYS come first for her throughout the marriage. She has always acted independently with the horses. In fact, - she said the worst thing about her parents divorce was not being able to ride the horses every day. No mention of mommy and daddy not being together. If you really want to analyze, her folks split up when she was my son's age.

Not sure I understand. Why would presence or otherwise of OM affect the divorce proceedings?



What was the attraction between you two originally?

He was the one that had her file the PFA agreement. The first few days after she said she wanted out, every time we would talk and start to make a connection, he would get her out of the house. He has her convinced that alimony and child support will pay for the farm for her. Plus, with him on the farm, I can not even go on the farm since he has threatened me the few times I have been there.

We practically grew up together. We were both part of each other's circle of friends in High School and College. We went to the junior prom together. In college, we had 80% of our classes with each other and studied together all the time. We didn't start dating seriously until our last year in college. We would talk for hours going all the way back to high school. Plus, we just had plain fun whenever we were together. It was a long and close friendship that slowly grew into love over the course of a decade.

Were you legally removed from the Farm?

When the PFA was filed, I was legally removed from the farm. However, since her only basis of filing one was because I caught her, it was dismissed so legally I can come and go as I wish.

Was it not possible to expell OM legally from the farm initially?

The grounds might be insubordination, trespassing, threatening behaviour, etc.

As soon as I caught them, he made her file a PFA against me so I've been fighting uphill ever since.

I really can't do anything yet because it could be construed as harassment. Once he is arrested, all bets are off.

I agree with you.

It is NOT surprising that you are unsure about wanting to reconcile and recover the marriage.

There is NO reason to do so while she is in this frame of mind and is not ready to recommit to the marriage.

File the divorce papers as soon as you deal with the OM. I agree that HE is the "First Priority."

Part of recovering a marriage, should you choose that route, is to first "destablize the affair," and he IS the ENEMY. There is no negotiating with the enemy, you fight them with everything you can and you crush them if at all possible. There is NO WAY this OM should be allowed any quarter, let alone any possible involvement or contact with your wife, or especially with your child.

File for CAUSE (Adultery), not for "irreconcilable differences."

A harder road, but one that is more beneficial to protect your finances and your child in the long run.

Also, filing "brings home" the seriousness of her choices. As long as she thinks she can somehow have both of you in her life, she will resist reality in favor of her "emotional responses and feelings."

Time to castrate her stud with all the legal means available and NOT time to "wimp out" even if some of the means are "distasteful."

He is evil and he is poison. Put him off the farm and out of your lives regardless of anything your wife says or does. HE is "non-negotiable" no matter you decide between your wife and you.

God bless.

I am wondering if you don't have a law that protects you from "frivolous litigation". Think about it... the initiation of the PFA implies slander. Y'no, anything that undermines their position if/when this goes to court.

Don't forget to claim expenses for board and lodging while out of your place of residence. All these could be persuant to the adultery and PFA conclusion.

I would move back in immediately. Don't give him free rain to run around your house, use your shower/bathroom, you TV, or your wife any longer. Once your back in you can call the cops to remove him because you and your wife have to both agree who stays. If your afraid the OM may get physical....that would get him out of your family's life as well. Take one for the team...don't allow him to make it till tuesday. His lawyer could tie that up for awhile and then what????

I don't understand, you were evicted from your own house, because you caught your wife in bed /w OM??

and a rastraining orede was granted against you for what cause??

Why wasn't one filed against the OM if their so lax in issuing them against a husband and his own house?

It comes down to who was quickest to the draw I think. But the mother w/kids get the preference. I think if he had a lawyer at the time he could have ensured that the OM was out as well.

What state is this??? Cousins?!?!??! ...(speechless) ..umm

I know my cousins are cute but uh, we have the same grandparents... it would be unthinkable in my family. GAG

OM threatened you. What are you waiting for? Get a lawyer get OM thrown off your property and barred from ever stepping on it again.

He needs a witness to back him up.

Um excuse me, 2nd cousins as my WW would say. We live in Delaware and it is legal...She actually said this.

Yup - in the PFA she said I was verbally threatening them and had mental issues. It is one of the worst laws on the books in Delaware. When I caught them, they were both asleep naked with no covers. So, everyone could imagine my first instinct, but, I thought better of it and got the "Big Gun" - my prized Digital SLR camera and snapped away.

When we had the hearing to drop the PFA's, the judge looked at the pictures and told my wife she was lucky I only grabbed a camera!

Since tommorrow is looking like it will be arrest day for the OM, I need some advice on how to handle Lisa.

I know she is going to fly off the handle with the OM being led off in handcuffs - I expect a really nasty phone call from her. With that being said, she will now be alone on the farm with the kids and 20 horses to take care of by herself. As a result, she'll start to feel the strain of the single parent.

Since I'm very close to implementing a dark plan B, should I stick out plan A for a few more days and volunteer to help or should I go to plan B? Should I volunteer to take the kids? Keep in mind, if I do decide to help out on the farm, she'll be dropping LB's and DJ's on me constantly.

I think it depends on what you want.

Have you decided on recovery or divorce?

Why are you not moving back to the farm? If she wants an A with the OM, she should be the one moving out.

How old are the kids and how much do they know?

I would plan B.

If you went back she has to admit her PA to her parents.
Have all of the OM's property, including his horses removed.
Agree to never allow the OM back on the property and get a restraining order to keep the OM away.

WW will have to go NC forever with OM. Be one hundred percent transparent so you can verify NC. That menas give up cell access and all passwords.

Most likely if you this route her change will not be real. She will put on the act to get you to help with the work on the farm and your money to pay her bills because the OM is not around.

If WW will not agree then go plan B.

Going plan B and cuting off all financial aid to her is the best way for you to go. I would think it would yield better results for you to go directly to plan B and cut oof all money. This will show her that you will not be a door mat. It will give the OM the opportunity to fail meeting all of her needs full time.

You need to get your WW to miss you and what she had with you.
Plan B will do this.

Go Plan B!

Plus with the OM's track record he will get caught cheating on WW.

Why would she get mad at you for him getting arrested for attacking his father?

That makes no sense.

You shouldn't speak to her if she calls you ranting let her flail in anger at herself and if she calls you angry then just hang up.

I'd also move back into my own home. That is your house and you can be accused of abandonment if you stay away. You should have been back in your own home the second the protective order was dropped.

Do this! She'll be mad at you, but you need to do this to protect your rights as a father if this does go to divorce. Moving back in also allows you to Plan A.

She can move out if she wants out.

She was very, very angry with me talking to the OM's father about his past. This was part of the exposure part of plan A. Plus, with the OM tied up in the legal system for a couple of days, who's going to muck her stalls? So far she has been having more than her fair share of cake - me paying the bills and help 24/7.

My plan is to file the restraining order tommorrow and tell her I am going to move back into the downstairs MBR. From there, I will take it one day at a time.

Oh the poor, poor little darling got wery, wery angwy???

I hope you laughed your a$$ off!

As far as mucking the stalls??? Let her get her taste of [censored], she's made you eat hers!

Once you move in you need to do some things which will protect you financially and drive home the point to her that she is going to get all the independence she needs with her behavior unless it changes.

A wife deserves your trust with the finances. A WW does not.

You therefore need to cancel all joint credit cards and bank accounts. Open your own account and move all the marital money into it.

If she wants funds to finance her infidelity, then she can get a job.

Quit paying her bills and cell phones, etc.

Start documenting everything.

I thought about a possible reaction to her verbally abusing you:

Something like "Go easy on me. I've just lost my best friend, lover and wife. Along with that goes the hope of a stable family to raise our children. Lastly, the loss of our shared dream of a successful farm to pass on to future generations."

"All this happened because I lost sight of priorities and because my best friend lost faith in me."

Here... I'm just trying out my soapie writing skills. I'd love to know how a WW would respond though.

As for moving into your bedroom - change nothing from what it was before. Why? You should not have to concede anything. Doing so will undermine your position as head of the household. Let her walk if she so wishes but the children should stay at the residential home.

For your own records, you may want to keep a voice activated recorder on your person.

From the sounds of things in your previous posts - WW's independent behaviour generally needs to be quietly reigned in. Is my impression wrong?

And lastly, have you yet decided whether she's a keeper?

Yup - her independent behavior does need to be reigned in. Throughout all of this, all of her family says it isn't the Lisa they have known.

As to whether she's a keeper- she's my best friend, wife, lover, and the mother of our children. We will both be deeply wounded by this ordeal but I would cherish the opportunity to rebuild our marriage and relationship because I keep reminding myself of the great times we had.

Are you back at the farm?

Has OM gone?

Whatsup on whats going down?

The OM hasn't been served - turns out the warrant is a bench warrant and it is the slow boat to China so to speak.

Today was a very, very tough day emotionally for me. It is the WW's birthday - I sent her a card. She called me this morning and we had a nice 45 minute conversation about the kids, her job search, and just what's going on.

Later on, she sent me an email telling me she did not get the job she thought she was going to get and was very down on herself. I wished so hard that I was there to give her a hug...I just feel really down because this is the first special day that we had since all of this went down at the end of July. I think the holidays are going to be absolutly brutal.

Anyways, I have Friday and Monday off - I have the kids tommorrow night through Monday morning since they don't have school on Friday. It should be a fun weekend for the three of us.

If its just a bench warrant then you may not be getting what you expect out of this. He probably failed to appear in court for the assault on his father. He is not going to be picked up by the police until a warrant for his arrest is issued, this sounds like just a warrant to appear again. If this is because he failed to appear or respond previously he could face a fine and if he does not appear after this he will be arrested.

Help me understand why you are not back at home. What are the problems or concerns? Maybe we can help.

When she filed the PFA on 8/20, I was forced out of the house. The hearing was on 8/29 but she had called my attorney the day before then at the hearing said there was a conflict of interest because she had talked to my attorney. As a result, the hearings were delayed to 9/24.

Because of this, I was forced to get an apartment because I didn't really have any place to stay until then. I have gone to the house once since then and when I went, it was awful - the WW and the OM basically ganged up on me and just verbally abused me in front of the kids. When the WW is away from the OM, we get along fine.

Given the money situation because of my apartment and the fact she doesn't have an income, I can't pay for everything at this point. In another month or so something is going to have to give or she and I will lose everything. I am almost to the point of laying it out to her that if she wants to keep the farm, the OM must leave and I move back in and break my apartment lease.

B

Maybe it would be best to lose the farm. No farm no reason for the OM to hang around. No place to keep his horses. No work for him to train other peoples horses.

With OM gone your WW will have a chance to go through withdrawal from OM.

When all the dust settles your WW will see that the OM could not save/provide her with a farm. You could.

The medicine is painful and expensive.

The cure, priceless.

am almost to the point of laying it out to her that if she wants to keep the farm, the OM must leave and I move back in and break my apartment lease.

What is preventing you???

Some good conversations with the WW today - nothing very heavy or relationship based but she dropped a bunch of honey's and sweeties in the conversation.

Anyways, I'm picking up the DS and DD tonight for a long weekend - the WW is taking some of her students to a horse show this weekend but doesn't have any money to show herself. Since yesterday was her birthday and the horses are one of her big EN's, should I give her a check made out to the show for her entries as a little bit of a birthday present to her? Or, am I being a doormat? BTW, I am still in plan A.

B

Doormat.

Why don't you buy them both dinner too?!?!

Please wake up. It's painful to watch.

Iam is not what one would call a diplomat, but I agree with him entirely.

Don't sponsor their affair. Use the "Carrot and stick". In this case the carrot includes the day to day running of the farm. If OM is so useful then replace the sucker with a hired hand - Hulk Hogan maybe. What indeed prevents you from firing this OM for insubordination?

How does it look to a woman when a man backs down when he is fighting for her. Sure, she will side with OM. Ignore her. If you are talking to OM let him know that you are boss. Get a restraining order if he is bigger than you.

If you really need backup, how about inviting friends. Damn it! Have one of them video the procedings. But for Pity sake - get back into your own home.

Man throw us a bone here - is this guy a better talker? What?

In case you missed this, I think it's a great question and I'd love to see your response.

The guy is a very smooth talker and is extremly controlling of her. It's almost as if she is afraid of him. When she calls and he's not around, we get along great WHen she calls and he's in the room, she's brutal to me. Plus, last time I was at the house, he threatened to kick my A$% and he had her call the cops on me! WHen I walked to my car, he told her to get the keys out of the ignition since she was closer to my car than me. It was almost like he had her on remote control.

What is so odd is he has her convinced that she can not exist without him. He told my sister in law this. He has her convinced that she can get a full time job after being out of the workforce for 6 years, operate her business so it is bigger and better than it was before (she lost money every year) AND take care of the kids plus keep the house. The two of us could barely keep up!

On Monday, we are going to meet again to go over the finances. Basically there is no way we can pay the mortgage and my apartment. I might also have my attorney talk to her attorney and lay out the situation. Since we've already filed for divorce, right now we have to do everything to protect the family assets and us living in separate places does nothing to protect the assets.

B

How can you let your children around this 'man'?

Are you afraid of him physically?

I've had a lot of people threaten to kick my [censored]. They were just threats. Everybody's a tough guy until they have to back it up.

Do you have any friends that might 'convince' him to leave?
Maybe when he is off property on an errand?

shock

"she dropped a bunch of honey's and sweeties in the conversation."

Classic WW play: Throw the BH some crumbs so you give her want the OM wont.

WW buttered you up. Then lets you know that "WW is taking some of her students to a horse show this weekend but doesn't have any money to show herself"

Why are you willing to pay for anything as long as WW is spreading her legs for the OM?

Is your name on the deed for this horse farm. Get a lawyer to have him thrown off your land.

Time to end all finacial support for your WW. As long as your WW can live on the farm she will not give up the OM. Also as long as your WW has the farm the OM will not give up his meal ticket.
So the farm has to get sold. People can always buy another farm.

Do you want your wife?

Then you will do what you have to do. In this case cut off money so see loses the farm.

Farm gone, the rat OM will jump off the sinking ship.

Why are you supporting the OM to a life he is a custom to.

It's your money, house, farm, and WIFE the he is USING.

No you want to give the WW more money to keep her happy screwing the OM.

If you are worried about the OM then have someone with you. If he were to assault you along with his current assault on his own father that he has a bench warrant on....he would be in jail for quite awhile. Might be worth it!!

Find out from your lawyer what the ramifications are for not paying or reducing your part of the payments for the farm. Simply not paying...could result in the wife getting the whole thing if her laywer can play it that way. Just implying you no longer want it.

What is the status of the restraining order preventing you from the farm???

Restraining orders are dropped - legally I can go on anytime I want. RIght now, she is REALLY feeling the financial pinch - I just got off the phone with her and she said she might apply for welfare and food stamps (good luck since we are still married and do not have any formal separation agreements in place). Anyways, she is starting to feel rock bottom.

As for him assaulting me, the thought has crossed my mind about taking one for the team.

Yep! And by caving this further confirms to a WW how "ineffectual" the BH is. BH usually thinks by "being kind" that his shares have gone up. Wrong.

Maybe it is time to raise the ante and announce a plan to sue OM for alienation of affection. This doesn't have to go to court but it does put further pressure on WW and OM. It will become more apparent that they're not going to make it in the long haul.

I am a bit concerned that a case for abandonment could be made against you if you extend your absence. Check with the suits.

SB,

Again sorry for your dreadful state of things. Does she have no sense of money or finance, what the hades is wrong with her. From the sounds of things she had an ideal life, spoiled as a child?

Do you think she has a sense of inferiority to you and needed to commiserate with this loser.

Thats one thing I can't grasp is her lack of concern for the bottom line. Financial timing wise couldn't be worse either.

God Bless
NJ

I don't know about your state, but in California, a separated spouse CAN get welfare. What happens then is that the other spouse will have to pay back all of the money.

Some updates. Picked up the kids Thursday night for a long weekend - I'll drop them off at school tommorrow. Nice conversation with the the WW at the drop of point.

I received a call yesterday from the OM father's fiance. Evidently, the OM WAS arrested on 10/4. That would explain why the WW was really nasty when we met on the 4th face to face to go over finances. The arraignment for this this is on the 15th. Tommorrow, I am going to the courthouse to file a summary to get him evicted. Since there is no formal lease, I can pretty much kick him off for any reason. Also, for the value of what he is getting from the barter arrangements he has with the WW, I filled a 1099 form with the IRS as well. BTW, the taxable value for the third quarter comes out to about $17,000 which means he is on the hook for these taxes as well.

I've sent a spreadsheet with the state of our finances to my attorney - on Wednesday he is going to present to her attorney that the only way to keep up the payments on the farm is for the OM to move out and for me to move into the downstairs master bedroom.

So, it looks like the legal heat is going to be turned up very high on the OM. He'll have the following to deal with:

- Child support judgements
- 2 felony arrest warrents
- Eviction hearings on my end
- Possible trouble with the IRS since he hasn't filed an income tax return in several years.

Overall, it looks like the OM will probably bolt pretty soon - he can't duck the child support anymore while he is at my place since the courts now know where he is.

B

Bump

Quick update

I was unable to get to the courthouse today to file the restraining order against the POSOM (and that is insulting to pieces of #$$%) because of Columbus Day. I'll do that tommorrow.

The WW stopped by my apartment this afternoon to pick up Amanda Panda (DD3). We hung out for a few minutes - I know she saw my Library of Reading (SAA, HNHN, Love Busters, Not Just Friends, Divorce Busting, After the Affair) because she kept looking at my coffee table instead of looking me in the eye.

I know she doesn't think I know about the arrest - I'll drop that bomb after I file for the protection order. My lawyer thinks she painted herself into a corner - if she fights the restraining order, it looks very bad if we go to custody. We shall see very soon where here priorities lie...

B

Man oh man what a tough day today. Today was DS 6 birthday. I called the WS at around 6pm to talk to DS. She was on her way home from a job interview - she wouldn't be home until 8pm and the kids go to bed at 8:30pm. Therefore, the DS was home with the POSOM on his birtday.

I came real, real close to firing off a very nasty email but ended up having my sister talk me off the ledge so to speak. If you know you are going to be late, I felt she should have called me and I would have taken DS and DD out for DS's birthday instead of having him spend it with the POSOM.

SB,

That's a real tough one. I know how tough that is.

Make his birthday special when you see him next time. He'll remember.

I'm sure it wasn't the happiest birthday for him either.

It gets better with time.

Looks like you lost an opportunity to get back into your own house. You had two hours.

Correct me if I am wrong. I thought you stated there was no longer a legal reason for you to be outside of your home?

Is that true?

[/quote]

Looks like you lost an opportunity to get back into your own house. You had two hours.

Correct me if I am wrong. I thought you stated there was no longer a legal reason for you to be outside of your home?

Is that true? [/quote]

You're right - would have had a small window but I was so angry I didn't think of that until after the fact.

Anyways, the POSOM had his arraignment today. Not sure what he plead but if he plead guilty he would have been sentenced to probation, fined, take a mental health evaluation, drug and alcohol counseling as well as anger management.

No word from the WW today - usually she calls or emails at least once a day. She's probably mad that her boyfriend is in hot water and is mentally blaming me for it!

I'm sorry you have to live this. No one should have to endure it.

What's the status of the restraining order?

We're pulling for you.

SS

Talked with my attorney yesterday - no dice on getting POSOM out of the house on a restraining order. Since there is no physical evidence the kids are in danger, the order has little chance of going through. GRRRR

Now, I am going into a dark plan B. At this point, everytime I speak to her I am extremely angry or frustrated so I need to cut of contact with her to save myself. What I'm doing is no longer paying the mortgage - yes I am putting the house in jeopardy but with a likely bankruptcy filing, I won't be doing much more damage to my credit anyways. Think of it as a big game of chicken.

Also, I will pay her the child support based on what the courts calculate- that way I can't get in trouble with the courts. Financially this will be beneficial to me as well.

For child visitation, I am going to push for one week with me, one week with her. That way I am also showing the courts that I recognize time with both parents. BTW all of this was suggested by my attorney.

So, I have a lot to do in the next couple of weeks including my plan B letter - I'll post a draft of the letter once I finish it.

B

Aren't his court appearances a matter of public record?

Find out when they are. When he is gone move back into your house.

Or, stake out the house and move in when they are out.

Am I missing something?

It's YOUR house!

When they come home call 911. Have company, friends, family, there with you. When she shows up with him have the police escort him out!!!

If she wants him, let HER leave!

It is absolutely tragic that a man may not be able to access his own property for fear of repercussions from an interloper.

This appears to be a violation of property and personal rights at the most fundamental level.

This kind of demented legal practice must surely demand that a citizen "go to the mattresses" for solutions.

I would love to see this guy dosed with enough bluestone to give him ED for life. Then discredited in the equine and commercial world. I think he has earned it.

This state absolutly sucks and the one thing I've learned is the first one to the courthouse wins. Unfortunatly, the OM has been there done that many times and knows the system.

There are many, many times where I am very tempted to revert to plan FU instead of plan B. I am so, so frustrated - my wife has thrown away every value we have ever stood for over the last 4 months. That's the hardest part to reconcile in my mind. Since we've literally grew up together, I keep wrestling in my mind whether everything was real.

B

It doesn't seem like you have even really tried Plan B yet. Get to it as soon as you can because the longer you keep things the way they are, the less likely Plan B will have any chance. You might decide to go directly to Plan FU. Plan B is to allow you to maintain what little feeling you still have for WW. I'm not seeing that in your posts.

What legal repercussions will there be from not paying the mortgage (aside from possible foreclosure)? Why not pay more child support and let her pay the mortgage out of that? It's tax deductible that way and you also get to claim the exemption.

The only legal repurcussion is foreclosure on the house. Given the situation our finances are in anyways, it won't do much more damage. My attorney suggested this on Friday.

In regards to child support, the state calculator is online and all it is imputing income so that's easy to figure out.

Oh, I do love her so much - it's almost like I have to keep the anger up to keep myself from falling into a deep depression. It is so, so, so hard to keep from going to F/U because of how absurd she is acting. Some days I dread when she calls because I don't know how she will be acting. Other times I am elated to hear her voice. When I feel myself starting to lose my love, I pop in our wedding video and watch us exchange our vows. While it is very, very tough to watch, it reminds me what I'm fighting for.

You need to do a plan B. This will show your WW that she can not string you along and keep you as a back up plan if the OM does not work out.

You need to cut off money to your WW. As long as she can house and feed the OM on your dime. The OM will not leave. When the OM can not save her farm she will learn that the OM will not make a good mate.

You and your money must do a plan B together. Starting today.

You have to resign yourself to losing the farm through foreclosure to lose the OM.

If your WW ever wakes up and you recover your marriage you can always buy another farm.

You must stop letting your fears cloud your judgement.

I'm in the process of taking care of the plan B logistics. Finances are just about in order plus we are civil to each other again so I can do a good plan A and leave her on a good note.

Anyways, lets rewind to last Thursday. We were talking on the phone about finances and she was your typical WW, fog talk nasty to me. I kept hanging up on her when she called me names - I'm not going to put up with that. Finally, she gets too tired of that and calls my mother and promptly tells her to cancel the B-Day party she had planned for DS 6 because her son is being unreasonable and won't talk to her therefore I can't see the kids during the weekend.

I'm absolutly furious at her for using the kids as pawns so I fire off a VERY sarcastic email telling her I dropped her off my health insurance as of Nov. 1. Today I finally hear from her and receive this email:

Well I have have a job with my own coverage it started in 90 days . So it would be great and financial great if you can have the effective day moved to January 1st 2009. Or due to my finanical status Amanda will have to be pulled from Loving care in order to pay for the CORBA Health coverage. It you your choice. If you just want to waste money we don't have that is fine. Not very smart and very mean, but that is your call. So if you want to waste more money that is fine. But I will call HR becasue I think it is elegal to due so. I am glad to pay the AZ payment that you pay , due to the fact that it is much less each month. But if not, I will pull Amanda from pre school and pay for my helath coverage. I feel pulling Amanda from school would hurt here speach and her teacher agree. I feel that with all my helath conditions I sould not go with out health coverage. I am glad your leting go. Let me know what your doing so I can keep Amanda in School or pull her from the learning classes.

I can tell how angry she is by how incoherent the emails are. She was livid when she wrote this!

So, I write back to her:

Congrats on your new job - was it the Dover job you were telling me about last week? Also, I added you back onto my insurance.

See ya!
B

What do you know, 10 minutes later she calls me to discuss some business stuff around her refinancing our really big truck into her name. OVer the next 2 hours she calls me at work 3x's. The last time she told me she was going through the winter clothes and will run them up to me as well as the bed in the extra bedroom. Funny thing is, when she called, Genesis' "Throwing It All Away" was on the radio at work! Talk about ironic.

Before someone swings the 2x4 at my head, my attorney advised me to add her back onto my insurance. I'll tell you what, I was very, very angry over the last few days but it was absolutly wonderfull to hear her voice. Plan B is going to be soooo hard. I would like to start plan B no later than Nov. 1. I must avoid all lovebusters at all costs before I go into plan B!

Received a call from the WW (now known as Chicklet) about the mortgage company giving her a hard time about a late payment (less than 30 days late)on the mortgage. I let it go to voice mail since I don't want to deal with her at work. However, I listen to it and fire off this email:

I will not discuss any payment arrangements with the mortgage or consider making any payments on the mortgage until OM (now known as Snaggle Tooth) and his horses are permanently off the farm with zero contact ever with our children. I do not want someone who was recently arrested for crimminal tresspassing as well as offensively touching an elderly man around our children.

SHe leaves me a VM on my cell later tonight after she reads this and goes into a rant. Then, she fires off this reply:

That is very interesting so you are talking to "you know who" even those you say you are not. So, is this like the Health care coverage; or are you saying you are refusing to pay the child support? And payments on a joint asset (the house).

You know who is Snaggle Tooth's father. Also, nothing has been registerd with the courts in regards to child support. I'm still going to write her a check based on the state's calculator. It is a much lower payment than the mortgage. That way I can't get hit with back payments.

Other great new is I was declined from the truck loan, because, my credit has dropped due to the last few late mortgage payments and other late payments on other bills. So all this is messing up my credit score so it is impossible to re-fin anything at this time. So you are messing things up and shoot your own foot in the process.

No, you were declined for the truck loan because you don't have a job. I told her a few weeks ago to sell the truck and by a much cheaper beater car.

I don't understand why you’re not supportive and willing to help me get back on my feet so I can support our kids. I think it is very mean of you and causing me mental stress. I would rather be fully devoted to re-starting my career then worrying about fighting with you over stuff we have already agreed upon. I don't understand why you verbally agree and then take it back a few days later. This is very stressful for me and not healthy. Maybe we should put all this in writing so there is not confusion.

Are you ready to wise up and spot this childish behavior or are you going to further mess up both our lives and financial status.

She's the one having the affair with Snaggle Tooth who has no money, no job, a criminal record. Who's messing up who's life?

Greet all of these rants of hers with silence.

As far as child support goes:

If there is no child support order, then there is no child support.

This is super important.

I paid child support when i didn't have to and I was unemployed at the time.

Do not respond to rants of hers.

Don't destroy your own credit to make a point. If the house is in her name, then let the mortgage go. Otherwise pay it and don't hurt your own credit.

But don't pay CS if there is no order to do so.

Why haven't you moved back in to your own house?

Meet ALL of her emails with silence.

I strongly disagree with this!

"Don't destroy your own credit to make a point. If the house is in her name, then let the mortgage go. Otherwise pay it and don't hurt your own credit."

One can always improve/restore their credit rating if it goes bad.

In the short term, a bad credit rating is costly.

The WW out of her fog, the OM out of ones house, PRICELESS!

Talk to you lawyer before you respond about not paying for the morgage etc. Don't put it in writing.

Shocked,

You are doing a good job. The OM is failing to provide financial support for your WW. This has to force her to wake up eventually.

So you're justifying SB purposefully breaking his promise to his creditor, because his WW broke her vows to him.

This is basic right and wrong stuff here. SB promised to repay his mortgage ... period. There was no loan covenant that said "as long as his WW remains faithful". It is EACH of their responsibilities JOINTLY AND SEVERALLY to make those payments. Just because WW refuses, doesn't relieve SB from his obligations.

We speak a lot on here about honesty, integrity, keeping vows/promises, and basic right & wrong.

Are we just "talking the talk", when its convenient, but refusing to "walk the walk" when it becomes difficult?

You would be hard pressed to find someone who hates WW's and their OM as much as me, but there are other ways to achieve his purpose without compromising his integrity.

My Rev

I understand what you are saying - on same page. Is there another strategy he can take?

This is one tough scenario -

OM and WW are basically living off SB's wallet and living on the farm. Even the child support pmts are mostly likely supporting the love nest.

His WW has basically replaced SB with an OM and he is footing the bill. This is about as bad as it gets.

SB -

Perhaps a stupid thought - Can you put the farm up for sale? What does WW think will happen when D goes through - does she think you will pay all their bills also?

As I understand it, the farm is jointly owned.

I am wrestling with the idea how the interloper gets to stay. Does this imply that there has to be consensus between BS and WW before this man can be removed.

Also, what is the consequences of adultery in those parts? And, what's to stop a charge of alienation of affection be laid against OM. You know, just to keep him busy!

What is the economic leverage that OM holds in this equation?

Lastly. What strategy is being employed by H&S and towards what end?

Well, the one thing we do know is that continuing to do NOTHING, while funding the A isn't working. IMHO, SB got himself in this situation through his INACTION.

SB is still the co-owner of the real estate and as such, has certain rights. After all that has occurred, its quite obvious that this M is toast, so SB needs to protect himself and his assets.

I would find the best attorney in his area with the nastiest reputation, and I'd sue for divorce and move the court for orders for the Sheriff to remove OM from the property, which I doubt would be very hard to obtain. Then you use WW's behavior to leverage the best property settlement SB can achieve.

The first thing that SB has to realize though is that he is not going to reconcile with his WW, and get his mind right that he's going for the jugular ... no holds barred. After what she's done, she deserves nothing less.

I'm missing something here. How is it that an OM can move into the marital property, kick the BH out and somehow the BH is financially responsible for this? If the BH is on the title of the property, can you not kick OM off? Call the cops and tell them he is trespassing? Get him out, get back in. Then work out some kind of interim arrangement with the WW to pay the bills while the divorce proceeds. This much at least seems very obvious, what am I missing?

I've followed this thread as it's progressed but maybe I need to go back and reread it. Can someone paraphrase because it just doesn't make sense.

FWIW, I disagree with ruining your credit as well. Divorce takes a lot out of you financially - at the end of the day you might have nothing left but your credit.

My Rev -

Would go with your plan if found in same situation.

Tabby -

I found myself in same quandry - I have to be missing something or the state (I think Delaware) goes after men in these situations. I am trying to put myself in his shoes. I would be beyond myself and would probably be locked up I am afraid.

A homeless moves in and takes your farm, wife and family and the BH has no powers or relief - cannot fathom this.

S&B is still in shock and has not been able to take any decisive action. There have been opportunities to take the bull by the horns but he is still fearful of his WW.

S&B, I promise you will feel better if you take concrete manly actions to alleviate your situation.

I wish you could read your thread as an outsider. You would see how you continually make excuses for doing nothing.

I don't mean to be harsh with you but, please do something...anything!

I'm relieved to see that you guys stateside have the same confusion about the sitch as I do here in South Africa. I just cannot conceive a legal system that would be that obtuse...

Something else that I must ask H&S is this: Your postscript says that there is "slight improvement"... What is this improvement?

As long as OM is an "invited guest" by one of the owners of the property, he can stay. As far as BH leaving the property because of a PO (that was eventually dismissed) he had to leave at that time, but there is NOTHING preventing him from moving back into HIS home NOW, except the threat of bodily injury from the OM.

If BH were willing to face the OM and the possible injury to his person, he could just move back in anytime he felt like it and there is NOTHING OM or his WW could do about that. However, that would be an idiotic thing to do because with OM's history, it would probably quickly escalate and someone would be hurt. I certainly wouldn't attempt it alone.

Financially, BH is obligated to continue to make payments on the ranch, no matter who's living there.

Bottom line, until he can figure out a legal way to get OM gone... he's stuck.

If I were in his shoes, I would ONLY make the mortgage payments and NOTHING else, even child support until I was ORDERED to do that. I would then file for divorce AND custody and request temporary use of the marital home while the divorce was pending. Then both WW and OM would have to leave.

Thanks for clearing that up Princess. Makes sense!

By the way Shockedanbetrayed, sorry I got your name wrong earlier in the post. 'Guess I overdosed reading too many posts.

Sorry folks - long time, no update. My IC suggested I cut back on my Marriage Builders fix for a week or so as I go into plan B.

Anyways, on the 24th we had our kid exchange for the weekend. We were civil to each other - talked about the economy, she agreed to come to my place on Sunday the 26th to pick up the kids. WW also agreed to bring some of my things as well.

Since I was still in plan A, I made the apartment spotless, cooked our favorite family meal (OVEN STUFFER ROASTER!), had the kids bathed and ready for bed once they got home. Also, I heard the truck pull in as we were playing hide and seek. She comes in and get her to join in the game too.

Instead of the stuff I needed, she brought a bunch of old clothes I never wear and my college textbooks!

I bit my tounge and didn't get mad! I ask her if she wants some dinner, but she says she needs to get back home. We are talking at the car and she starts to go into how she won't have a place if she loses the house etc. I don't answer her - if I did, it would have been either a DJ or a LB. She gives me the "poor SAHM has to go back to work now that evil husband is divorcing her" routine. WW seems to forget that she was the one who is having the affair with someone who is not a functioning member of society.

I just say good bye and head back into my apartment.

How is plan B going?

If you can legally move back in then do so!!!! If OM does anything to you he goes to jail and then its solved. Also I would check with your lawyer if you can then kick him out!!

Thank for the post. I have really wondered what was happening. I'm puzzled why IC asked you to keep away from here.

By the way, there are IC's out there that could care less about the marriage. Their aim is to make customer feel good more than to repair relationships.

Yes, a quick divorce may well be less pain but not necessarily more worthwhile. Be wary.

More than anything the IC told me to stay away so I wouldn't dwell on things. Plus, not much has been happening other than pulling together some loose ends as I go into a dark plan B. I hear what you say about a quick divorce. The big D is NOT what I want. Sometimes it seems I am the only one who has faith in the marriage. Most everyone I talk to tells me to move on but they have never been through infidelity. Everytime I look at my children, I know I have to fight and keep the faith. They are the ones that are going to be hurt the most with the fallout and I could never live with myself if I didn't give WW a little more time.

I've really been enjoying myself for the last week or so - I joined the local Y to work out and get back into shape. Plus it gives me something different to do with the kids. I had a great father - son moment during the Penn State - Ohio State football game too. For the first time, DS sat through a whole game with me (he's only 6). Afterwards he asked when we are going back tto Penn State for a game. Plus, my Phillies won the WORLD SERIES!!!

Since WW and I both went to Penn State (we've known each other since grade school), anything involving Penn State has been trigger inducing. We fell in love at Penn State. I am a die hard PSU football fan and the last game against OSU was the first game I watched this season without any triggers.

I imagine not much has changed, or you would have told us about it. Remember that people care about you, and that you won't be in limbo for ever.

Let us know how you are, when you get a chance.

SS

Is the loser still in your house?
Why aren't you?
What's the status of his court appearances?

Why do you let her walk all over you?
Why won't you protect your children?

Do have any clue the statistics about abuse of children by boyfriends?

I can't stand this anymore.

Yes the loser is still in my house. My attorney has advised me NOT to move back in at this point - it could be considered harrassment. The laws in my state are very, very biased towards the mother.

However, I have an appointment with Child Protective Services on Friday to discuss the situation.

In terms of custody, I had a little bit of luck shine down on me. We both filed for joint custody with primary residency. She filed first so normally she is the petitioner and I am the respondent. However, I wasn't served with my papers until today. She was served with mine last week. Thus, I am the petitioner and she is the respondent which gives me a slight advantage.

The OM plead not guilty (not a surprise) the trial is scheduled for 11/17.

This morning, I received a call from WW. She called me at work with her new work phone so I didn't recognize the number. She told me "You win - there is no way I can keep the house". We need to list it. Because of this, I had to stay on the phone with her since it is business..
Well, there is a way to keep the house...

She then went into a long rant on how she is the victim in all this and how I have acted like an A%$ through all this.

I calmly asked to tell me how I've acted like an a%$ and she couldn't answer!

She then said that she has finally found true love with the OM and I just need to get over it. Also she said the charges against the OM are bogus - his father has alzheimers and doesn't understand what happened.

Man o man the fog is thick with her...

As part of my recovery, there have been a few things I have been working on. Because of the sudden shock of having my life as I know it turned upside down, I've come to realize how much of a giver I was to the marriage and how I have sacrificed many of my interests over the last few years for the horse farm. I'm sure this contributed to the state of our marriage - I am not a natural horse person and it has always been a point of conflict between the WW and I.

The reason why I think this contributed is in the couple of weeks before ILUBINILWU speech, she started to encourage me to do things like ride my bike, take the kids to a movie etc. I realize it was really to get me out of the house but deep down she may have realized how much I sacrificed as well.

I've been attending a Divorce Cares support group - last night we had the chapter on forgiveness. It gave me food for thought on what I will need to do within myself whether we decide to recover or end up in plan D.

Through my DC group, I was linked to the local BAN support group as well. There were six of us in the meeting I went to and it was nice to talk about some the thoughts I'm going through with folks who have walked the same road as me.

Anyways, since I have time to myself now, I've joined the local YMCA. I've started swimming again as well as a spinning class twice a week. She and I were both on the swim team in high school but we haven't swam a lap in 16 years. After my first workout, it was GREAT to feel the total body exercise high I used to get back in high school after a workout.

Also, being such a huge Penn State fan, I've booked a flight to the BCS championship game in Miami in January. While I won't be going to the game, it will still be a blast hanging out in the bowl city and rooting on the Nittany Lions. If PSU doesn't make it, I still have a 4 day vacation in the sun!

I'm so glad that you did not let her comment of you "being such an A$$" ride. I suspect that assertion is a turn on for her. She certainly kowtowed to OM on D-day.

Her "getting her own way" in the horse farm business also seems to smack of riding roughshod. Matched with her "independent behaviour" and and headstrong ways, are you sure that she is not going to be too much work even if she does repent of her wandering ways...

Changing the subject....may I share that the articles at this site are really fabulous. I'm NOT going to suggest that you read through them as you already have enough reading matter on your plate. The articles on affair proofing and telling the spouse "we have a problem" are particularly relevant as to how an affair develops. Yes, postmortems do help us to become more effective.

Hey enough chat for now, catch you later.

I'm glad you have CPS involved.

I'd sic them on him in a heartbeat.

It sounds like you are mostly OK - considering.

I'm glad you are keeping yourself busy.

We hope and pray that she will "get it" soon.

I wouldn't mind if OM "got it" either.

SS

How are you Shockedbetrayed?

Did you get CPS on the felon?

iam,

Thanks for the follow up and concern on how I'm doing. I picked up DS and DD last Friday and made the 6.5 hour drive to Pittsburgh to visit my old college roomate and few old college buddies. We had a GREAT time. Unfortunatly, my Nittany Lions lost but I was glad I didn't make my reservations for the BCS game yet!

On Sunday my roomate and I took the kids to the Pittsburgh Children's museum and we had a blast. It was hard too seeing all the intact families there. Recreation is one of my biggest needs and I LOVED going on family outings with the four of us. However, I got through it and realized before the separation I probably wouldn't have been able to get away for a weekend like this because of commitments to the horse farm. It is neat to be able to do different things.

My roomate and I were joking about how far we've come since college- we both graduated from school in 97 and he is currently living with his parents and I'm in a bachelor pad with patio furniture for a kitchen table! My buddy just got transfered from Chicago and his W is back in Chi Town while the house gets sold. I told him about HNHN and the 15 hour rule while they are appart.

I've also found a great BAN support group and had a meeting on Thursday night. It was interesting listening to everyone's sitch and how similar each one is when you filter out the details. It is a great group of folks and it just amazes me how destructive infidelity really is.

On the legal front, my Attorney advised against calling CPS until the trial is over. It is on the 17th so we shall know soon enough. If he's guilty, it will be literally open season on WW and OM on the child custody front.

It's been a "fun" week dealing with WW. On Sunday while at the 'Burgh she called and it was a LB, DJ, and AO fest on both of our parts. She has always been one to argue and at this point, I am pretty ambivalent about saving the marriage. Plus, every conversation we have she says she is divorcing me no matter what. A lot of stuff I needed to get off my chest and I let her have it. It was a lot of things I've kept in for the last three months and I needed to vent and she was asking for it.

On Wednesday, I went to the house with my parents to get some things - namely the bed from the extra bedroom, my Milwaukee power tools (OM has been using them), my digital SLR, and a couple of other things. WW and OM were not there so she called the police but that did not amount to much because we have no separation agreement, nothing from the courts that say I can't go to the house, and I'm still on the deed (had a copy with me) .

That night, she called me and said she wanted me out of her life as quickly as possible and she did not want to have any contact with me. I then asked her why she had a problem with me coming over to the house that I own and have every legal right to be there yet saw no issue with the OM going to his father's place where he had a court order not to go there. Funny, she did not answer that. I told her good bye and hung up. She then tried to call 4 times but I didn't answer. I guess her plan B with me didn't last long.

This evening, she called again. We talked for about a half hour. I tried to explain to her the child support calculation - but she just wasn't getting it. She doesn't like it when the law doesn't suit her so she resorted to the old standby - "I am getting screwed by my husband in my divorce because I was a stay at home mom..." I asked her to tell me how I was screwing her if I was just following the law but she couldn't answer.

It is like talking to a wall...

I'm sorry the way things turned out HB. When you first posted here I thought things would work out for you. I guess I was wrong.

I may get blasted for this but who cares. Is there any way your wife would accept full custody for you in return for her getting to keep all the 'stuff'? House, cars, everything? Maybe the OM would talk her into it? Sorry if that sounds cruel but you shouldn't lose your kids over her affair. I'd do that in a heartbeat to keep my kids. She may just be foggy enough to agree.

Dang it man! No one, but no one, touches my tools. Milwaukee is good stuff, by the by.



I just wouldn't go there. Refer her to your lawyer to explain it. The way it works at MB, you talk reconciliation, lawyer talks divorce.


... or a foggy wayward. Nothing new here my friend, the question is... do you still want to play?

Maybe its time to go plan B.

OM had his trial today. Unfortunately, he was granted a continuance so it won't be until Dec 8th. Evidently he wants his mother to testify on his behalf and she couldn't make it today. (father and mother have been divorced for 40+years) I guess OM needs his mommy...

Anyways, the OM's father and a early 20's kid were talking about their sitch in the waiting area and the kid said he remembered the OM. He was the one that had the "hot" girl (WW who looks like she is 21) sitting on his lap in waiting area of the courthouse for his arraignment in October and making out the whole time. That's about par for the course for the WW lately - she showed up with him both times at family court too.

Right now, all I need is for her to agree on a temporary visitation schedule and I can go plan B on her. The problem is she won't agree to anything unless it is everyother weekend for me. (she has no basis except trying to be in control) If we don't agree, I'll force her hand and haul her into family court for a visitation petition. At a minimum I am looking for 50/50 until custody is decided in January.

Lets explore this:

WW DOES truly believe that she has found THE ONE. As hard as this may sound, I am convinced that she would kill for OM. I also believe that he has return feelings for WW as well. After all she is meeting his needs for admiration.

BUT...

Who she REALLY loves is Marlboro man. And OM represents that fantasy.

Now lets look at that word "love"

What she gives is adoration, submission and honour to her fantasy man. In return she gets to be Marlboro girl. Straight out of her little girl romance novel.

Our Marlboro man is enjoying the ride. He enjoys the position as teacher, dream spinner and lover. For now...

Eventually the cracks will show. The higher the ride, the harder the fall.

You want to know where the love is, look in the mirror pal. Here is someone who is prepared to endure for the sake of his family and the girl that he lost. There is no "good" feelings here, only pain, concern and frustration.

Yours is the labour of grit, growth and introspection. May you overcome.

Regardless of outcome, become the man that real men look up to.



This woman needs to be mastered as OM apparently has.

Don't discuss, act. If she wants to play hardball. Play. Keep her busy. Tie her and OM up legally. Tell her that contention equals less cash in the kitty for both of you. Exaggerate consequences for effect.

The bonus is that this prevents her from making her interviews. Neglects farm duties. And generally pressures their relationship.
Great galaxies, Marlboro man may even have to go work for a living!!!

(Tongue in cheek) By the way, what chance of slipping back to the house. Collect and sell all the double beds to defray expenses. No need for them now, right. No harassment, just business.

Imagine,

Awesome pep talk!You are 100% dead on about Marlboro Man and Marlboro Girl! With horses being such a huge part her life, I'm sure she has always dreamed of marrying a horseman and talking horses all day everyday without a worry in the world! Unfortunatly for me and the kids, she let that dream come true without any concern of the consequences. Everyone I talked to predicts a long and hard fall for her.

You are right - if I didn't love her and what we were and can build again, I wouldn't be on here. The easy thing would be to walk away and accept my fate. No.

I have been a doormat in the relationship - I had a crush on her since junior high and we finally started dating in college. She was the girl of my dreams. Sometime between ILUBINILWU and D-Day 2, she said she wanted someone who is not a pushover. Guess what, she expected me to be one of those fathers who accept Wed. night and every other weekend. She is realizing THAT IS UNACCEPTABLE for me and it is driving her nuts! For once, I am fighting back.

Okay, lets tool up your armoury.

There are a few excellent books on negotiation which you may care to read at your leisure:

* Getting to yes.
* Bargaining for results.
* Getting past no.

Meanwhile, I will clue you in on the salient details.

Negotiation should always be about recognizing the win-win situation. Frankly, this is where one where a negotiator learns to back off.

Before entering into discussion, you must KNOW what your BATNA (Best Alternative To a Negotiated Agreement) is. We can investigate these later. Chiefly we focus upon the return of WW as point of negotiation.

The thing about dealing with negotiators (like foggy WW) is the ability to cut through their tactics by identifying their ploys. We call this process "Naming the Demon".

She may have already employed some of negotiation's dirty tactics.
1. Rewriting history or terms of understanding is a classic. The reply is to have careful notes of actual history. When she introduces past feelings, and unmet needs use "reality testing questions" to probe why these were not communicated to you.
2. Bluster. Threats. Are you familiar with the concept of "active listening". This is the process of repeating what WW has said in another way to show that you understand not only her words but the emotion that accompanies her statements.
3. Flattery. Disown anything that is unrealistic or inconsistent.

I propose that you crystallize her and OM's indiscretions so that you are armed for reality interaction. CAUTION: Do NOT dwell on these crimes, this is PURELY for negotiation purposes.
By all means refer to OM as Marlboro man when she talks about him. Labeling helps to undermine the fantasy.

Its getting late here in Cape Town, if you want to hear more, let me know.

Last Thursday, WW and I had a heated discussion on the phone about business related to the divorce. No biggie in the grand scheme of things.

So, last Friday morning I get a voicemail from WW asking what time I'm picking up the kids. I text back the details. An hour or so later, she leaves me a VM saying the reason why she filed the first PFA was because I wouldn't pay her child support and has instructed the Day Care center call the police if I come pick up the kids. I text her and tell her I do not want to talk to her today. At 5pm, I text her "IM in Smyrna, Yes or No, can I pu the kids? Please text y or n." Little did I know this would be construed as a threat against her life...Anyways, instead of causing a scene, I go home with no kids.

Next morning, she wants to meet to exchange the kids. We meet, she wants to berate me, I just want to get the kids and go. The kids are in my car. She opens the passenger side door and starts to berate me. I tell her please close the door so I can leave. I put the car in gear to see if she will get the hint. She doesn't and she still is berating me. She then gets in my car and says I am trying to kill her in front of the kids. I call the police. While waiting for the police, WW rips DD and DS out of my car, DD is screaming hysterically. Police come, take statements, and let her leave with the kids. So, I miss a visitation weekend.

Sunday, we are emailing back and forth different custody / visitation proposals and I think something is going to get done. Monday night, I am served with another Protection From Abuse order. She files it on behalf of her AND the kids this time. In it she says I am going to kill her, I tried to run her over with the car, and I told her I drove around Smyrna looking to hurt her. She filed it as an immediate threat - I only had 1 day to prepare!

So, I call my PFA attorney and he can represent me. I have every email and text I sent her since October. My PFA attorney has been specializing in PFA's for 30 years. We go into court, WW shows up with OM and no attorney. My attorney asks the bailif to get my phone out of the lockers. WW says can I get mine too?

The trial starts. WW starts going through her allegations - she can't even go through them without being confused. Then, the shark goes in for the kill. One of the allegations was I sent threatening emails and texts. She did not bring a single email as evidence, she was so flustered she could not even work her phone. As the questioning went from bad to worse, she asked if she can have an attorney. The judge lectured her "you filed, you filed before, you wanted it expedited because of an immediate threat. It is your fault you don't have representation. Your husband is well prepared. "

Questioning continues, WW starts to shake uncontrollably during the questioning and asks for a recess. After ww and the judge leave, the bailiff says I can see why you filed for divorce! She is messed up!

WW calls OM on the witness stand. She asks him what evidence he has of BS acting erratic. He says he was in the room when WW had a phone appointment with the Marriage Counselor and was discussing how BS was feeling with the Marriage Counselor. THe judge asks him how did he overhear it? He says WW had it on speakerphone and OM was in the room during the entire appointment!

Anyways, WW calls me on the stand and asks me questions. Everytime she asks me, she cuts me off because the answer is hammering her case. Judge yells at WW. "Don't ask the question if you won't like the answer"

Finally, at the end of my testimony, the WW can't even speak anymore. The judge says "you presented 0 evidence of an immediate danger to you and the kids. You wasted the court's time. Case dismissed due to 0 evidence presented." My wife screams my life is in danger!

As she is walking out of the courthouse, she is screaming I am calling 911 next time we meet no matter what. I am going to call Child Protective Services! I am going to file a lawsuit against the judge for taking away my legal rights and putting me in danger!

The bailiff tells me he has never seen a more messed up woman and he does PFA's daily! Before I even mention it, my PFA attorney calls the custody attorney at the law firm and tells him to get paperwork ready for an emergency custody petition and he will give details pro bono!

So, I will be filling an emergency custody petition as soon as the courts open on Monday.

Man! The guilt is just piling up.

Sounds like she is trying to rake as much as she can in your direction.

How go you manage to steer plan A under these conditions?

ShockedBetrayed

I'm so sorry you have to go through this nightmare. What a total mess. But it sure seems like you have given her enough rope and now she is hanging herself with it.

I'm more or less in a plan B - there is no way to do a plan A. She is so unstable I just want all communication in writting once she takes me to court again. I really doubt I can take her back ESPECIALLY after the whole episode about the marriage couselor session. Basically she let the OM hear her discuss my private medical info in addition intentionally sabotaged any hopes of reconcilliation.

She is not just in a fog, she is in a black hole!

Good Morning Shock,

I feel for your sitch....no words can calm your soul during this time. You are doing fine because you are prepared.
My WW wants nothing to do with me....it's all about her OM.

However, I want to share with you a scripture that really has helped me.
Ps 40:1-4

if you have time just read that and let the words sink in...

Have a great day and remember there are others who are here to support you.

Sorry that she got to you again.

It occurred to me that she is in a place of fear. She absolutely needs the presence of OM to nurse her through.

Think about it. Left to her own devices she will come to all the right conclusions. Betrayal, guilt and partnership with a wastrel. Not pleasant thoughts for a woman caught in her fantasy.

I'm going to stick my neck out here and argue that her berating you is a coping mechanism to drown out her own guilt. An angry reaction from you merely entitles her position.

ShockB, though merely spectator, I confess that my thoughts wander horribly sociopathic when I think of OM. Therefore I don't expect you to keep an even keel through her unfair tirades. However, I would admire you if you did.

I guess what I'm saying is that if you could retain temper under provocation, it's attractive. Women like strong controlled men. Something more for her to think about during those quiet moments.

Imagine,

I have done my best to keep an even keel during her tirades - most of the time when it starts to really get to me I hang up the phone on her.

You know, after the hearing, the first thing I did was call her mother and ask her to go down to the house, pick up WW and the kids, and take WW to her place for the long weekend. I know WW was scared, embarassed, angry, guilty, and any other emotion imaginable Wednesday afternoon. I know OM will just inflame the situation. Her mother's love for her is what would help her recover from the absolute embarassment she endured on Wednesday. Unfortunatly, MIL chickened out on me.

When she had her first breakdown and left the courtroom, I broke down too - this beautiful, wonderfull woman I had loved for close to 17 years had been reduced to a quivering mass unable to speak a coherent sentence because of the guilt and lies of what she has done.

Dude, I feel truly helpless.

Good plan of yours to involve MIL. Anything that divides WW and OM is useful in my book.

Here's an email I received from WW yesterday:

From: Wayward Wife
Subject: White Flag ,,,,,,,,,, I give up!
To: Shocked and Betrayed
Date: Sunday, November 30, 2008, 10:22 AM



I sugguest we meet with someone other then our lawyer ( save money for the kids medical and health needs). You pick the person or people. , your parent, Cat, my parents, even SIL, Godfather, . Let sit down in a neuratl place like a conference center or some place like that and get this all on paper and give it to my lawyer and your lawyer, They will take it to the court and it will be finallized. the whole problem is becasue their is not outline and nothing in writting. IF you want we can get a professional medicator but I think we just need a warm body to baby sit the process. MOm says she has forms that you just go down line by line and just get it down.

Do you argree or not?

My Response:

Here are my terms which must be done by you before any mediation is to occur:

1. OM is not to have any contact with DS and DD ever again. Anyone who would voluntarily listen in on YOUR private marriage counseling sessions as well as try and use that information against YOUR HUSBAND and father of your children should not be around OUR kids.
2. Counseling sessions with you and I together to discuss how to handle the emotional fallout of what your actions have done to our children.

It is time for you to act in DS and DD's best interest and not in OM's best interest. I have also CC'd your mother, sister, and friend, in this email. When you respond, please CC everyone on this response. Also, as you know, saving money for the kid's medical and health needs is a moot point because they are on my health insurance which is just about the best program out there.

She is really feeling the pressure now and WW needs to face the music to what she has done. The boundaries I am laying are very, very strong. Because of her psychotic behavior, I have not seen the kids in three weeks now. I have an apppointment with attorney today to discuss steps to try and get emergency custody of the children.

Help me understand the full scope of pressure that WW and OM are presently experiencing.

How can these be exacerbated without impacting the kids?

BTW: Kudos for raising the bar irt. negotiations. Well done!

Hi folks!

Lots of action over the last couple of days. Thursday WW, me, and MIL met at MIL house to get things accomplished for the divorce. WW acted like W during this whole negotation. OM was nowhere near. In fact, WW was even alluding to life without OM!

So, we accomplished the following:

- house going on the market

- WW is going to offer to rent the doublewide on the property from prospective buyers ( can keep a horse for her and the kids)OM won't be able to mooch off these people (I'll make sure of that). If that doesn't work, WW mentioned living with MIL or Godfather who would not let OM within 100 yards of their houses.

- we decided on a shared custody arrangement. We each get the kids half the time. This is very important - earlier in the week and for the last few months she was fighting that I get every other weekend only and no more. While short term this is leting her have the kids around OMi, OM is showing signs of bolting so I was thinking long term here. This custody arrangement was filed with the courts too so it is now official.

- Child support was set. With the above arrangement, I'm paying her $764 per month which is a lot better than the close to $2000 I would be paying if I "settled" for every other weekend.

We also learned OM took a job 2.5 hours away doing barn work. This makes zero sense what so ever - plus he got it so he can feed "his" horses but still contribute 0 to the household expenses. It looks more like OM is looking for an out once the house of cards falls.

After the meeting the other night, MIL and I were talking about how it makes no sense for the D. (MIL has been D'd twice and is 15 years into her third marriage). During the negotiations, it was a perfect example of POJA. No LB's, no DJ, no AO from either side as well. MIL said it was like we were a family again even though we were talking D.

Yesterday, SIL had a long talk. She flat out said once OM is gone, she feels we should R. I agreed with her. She and I worked out a plan for the next couple of months.

- SIL will play "bad cop". Basically let her bash OM, drop the DJ and AO on WW, basically create as much conflict as possible. WW and SIL are identical twins. WW will get over it eventually with SIL. Plus, SIL will help if need be to go to a Dark, Dark, Dark plan B.

- For me, it is back to plan A for the next couple of months. Fact of the matter is WW and I have to establish two functioning households for the kids and this is the time for me show her there is no acceptable alternative father figure for DS6 and DD3. LOTS of positive communication has to happen between the two of us for the kid's sake. DD3 has to get some extensive speech therapy so we need to make these arrangements plus come up with a plan for both of us to work with DD.

Also, almost forgot- I will be making another appointment with Jen this week. Hopefully Wed - WW and I already have an appointment with the Bankruptcy Attorney on Wed. Maybe I'll make it for after the lawyer appointment. Plus, yesterday at the courthouse WW's attorney suggested that we still go to counseling together for effective co-parenting and WW agreed.

B

Your wife is a twin? :MrEEk:

My wife has a twin too and have seen for over 35 years a dynamic in which only one seems to be reasonably happy and content at any given time. Not to mention, if one stubs her toe, the other one limps for a couple of days.

When we married they both had really long hair. One day, living 750 miles apart, they both decided to get their hair cut and both styles were just about strand for strand identical.

To make things worse, SIL lived with us a couple of times in her life, once for over a year and a half. It was like they were two halves of a whole.

So glad to hear this positive update Shock,

I have been praying on two counts: One, that a Divine solution be realized. Two, that my temper would stay in check regarding your sitch.

Some questions: Are you glad to be shot of being a "horse husband"?
Is WW able to walk into a job? Gotta ask this - has OM officially left the building or is this just smoke up your rear? Can WW and kids not set up in your apartment or a common apartment after the farm is sold? (You know... two can live cheaply as one and all that, saving money for the kids speech therapy, whatever...)

After bankruptcy, will WW and you be able to afford that doublewide? (Wot's a doublewide?)

Do you even think that she deserves that opportunity? (Given that this is a chance for OM or ANY Marlboro man to make contact)

So far, OM has destroyed the economics of a farm and the integrity of a marriage. What is coming to this man? Do you caution the barn owner of OM's history? Does he continue to make inroads in your regular office hours?

I assume Jen will continue to advise steady domestic contact and work on your own personal development. Are you able to keep pace with all the MB reading as well as cope with all the drama in your life?

What now is your primary personal objective?

PS. I'm so glad that SIL is in your camp.

Imagine,

With the kids involved, I loved being a horse husband. I liked helping out. I liked being the gopher at shows. All the other trainers always commented to WW how helpful I was and how their husbands have nothing to do with the horse shows.

WW does have a job - it pays less than her first job out of college 10 years but it's money coming in. As for the OM leaving, he typically moves on at around 6 months. We are fast approaching that date. I'm positive he has a job -WW has mentioned it, WW's best friend mentioned it too.

I got the apartment as a lifeline just in case WW decides to come back home and we lose the farm- it's big enough for all of us.

As for the doublewide, we can definatley afford it. Her alone on the other hand....

I do want to R with WW. Wreaking families is OM's game and he is very good at it. He's had a lot of practice. The guy is a con man pure and simple and WW allowed herself to be lured into it. What her mother and I saw the other night was W - the wonderfully beautiful woman she raised and the wonderfull wife I
married.

As for personal objectives, I'm proceeding along the divorce path but the door is open to R. She wrote in a email the other day which I was CC'd on where she told her mother I hate her. I wrote her back (did not copy anyone else) and told her I didn't hate her - I hated what she did and that I still cared for her very deeply. She did not answer this. When I sent her the Jen letter I wrote, I immediately got an angry phone call.

WW, SIL, and I pretty much grew up together. Throughout the marriage I talked to SIL at least once a week - usually when WW was busy. It is very hard to talk to SIL now - since they are twins, conversations tend to have the same tempo and structure. Plus their voice sound the same too. SIL is very ashamed and embarassed of her sister right now. She has been a true friend through all this.

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

I look forward to hear good things from the appointment with Jen.

God bless.

It's fun being married to a twin! I totally get you about one only being happy at any given time. I see a lot of one upmanship between the two of them. What's really crazy is SIL was rear ended by a drunk hit and run. A month later, wife was rear ended too!

The twins and I pretty much grew up together - I think my wife has really struggled with her identity. She's complained in the last year or so about always being identified with her sister. I'm starting to think the affair might have something to do with this! My SIL's husband is similar to me - both of us aren't really "macho" men but the type of man you'd be proud to bring home to your mother.

Hi all,

Need some help - WW seems to be turning the corner so to speak in regards to how she is treating me. For instance, when we settled for visitation, she agreed to shared 50/50 with zero objections. In fact, she has been pretty enthusiastic in trying to make the logistics work. Up until Thursday she wanted every other weekend only for me and I was prepared to go to war over this. She felt the kids had a new father figure (OM) and didn't need much contact with me.

My question is I have an appointment with Jen this week. Should I try and get WW to call in too? Or, would it be a major, major lovebuster to try and get her on the phone at this point and defer to Jen to see what my next steps are. Any input is appreciated!

B

Hi Shock,

I've never posted to you before, but I read your thread over the weekend... Good Lord, your story has been horrible... Your wife must be someone really special for you to still have love for her, and I commend you for taking such a strong stance to save your family and for being open to reconciliation.

I don't know what to advise about your call with Jennifer, although if you haven't been talking about saving the marriage, you might present it to her as simply counseling rather than marriage counseling. The Harleys are supposed to be good at getting a WS to "buy in" to the idea of saving the marriage.

Is today the day of OM's trial?

I was definately going to refer the possible appointment with Jen as counseling! Tommorrow is OM's trial. He could face jailtime too. Lots of WW fog speak as told to OM's step mother around the trial too.

Some good ones:

"He loves me so much he is willing take the bullet for me by going to jail and not pleaing to a crime he did not commit"

Not sure how this equates to him taking a bullet for WW

"OM's father will destroy the family if OM goes to jail"

Like you and OM didn't destroy OUR family?

"OM can't sleep and has been pacing the floor every night because I know an innocent man may go to jail"

What didn't he understand about a court order not to go on his father's property? Plus, what about my sleepless nights and my floor pacing?

We did the kid exchange last night. Very uneventful in that neither one of us had an inklin to call the cops!

Anyways, I just got a new car this weekend (traded in both of the "marriage" auto's after WW got a new truck). I pull along side WW's new truck. She gets out, gets in my car and starts playing with the bottons, etc. Says stuff like can I drive it sometime, etc. Basically strokes my ego for a few minutes.

We get the kids out of the car, and put them in her truck. I get in her truck (very cold and windy) and we talk some about the new arrangements. I tell her I might have found a carpool for the kids. She says she's not comfortable b/c she doesn't know the people. I agree - tell her lets take it slow and maybe you can arrange playdates so you can meet the carpool parents.

As for the truck, she bought a NEW truck which will take up about a quarter of her take home pay from her new job! I have no idea how she got the loan or how she can afford it. Her problem for now...

This is the second time in the last few days where we did the following:

- radical honesty (she immediately told me her thoughts on the carpool)While it might have been a control thing with her, it is still something she and I did not do enough of during the marriage.

- POJA We came up with a plan that took both person's issues and feelings into account and came up with a solution.

While they are very, very baby steps, MIL, SIL, and I have started noticing subtle changes in her ACTIONS over the last few days.

Aaaaaaaarrrg!!!


My thoughts on this is that it is probably too early yet for WW to weigh in. Still in the fog and all. Unless she is enthusiastically agreeable - don't push it.

OT. Cuthbert nice to hear your voice.

I love my in laws! Just got a call from MIL. OM owes quite a bit of back child support in PA. She just reported him! She also mentioned his trial tommorrow to the authorities (in DE) so it looks like PA is trying to get the bench warrent filed ASAP so he can get served tommorrow when he shows up for his trial! In addition she is going to the trial tommorrow! She wants to have a chat with the prosecutor before the case...

I am soooo glad MIL offered to mediate - she saw my real W and her real D the other night and she wants her back just as much as I do! Plus, it takes a lot of the flak off of me in WW's eyes in regards to the trial.

Wow, that's fantastic news!! Way to go, MIL!!

Bless your MIL. This is big.

How did MIL manage to get that info?

Are you going to hear about the outcome of the trial today from MIL?

Semi bad news - OM's trial was granted a continuance until Jan 26th. Not a big deal in the grand scheme of things. I have my appointment with Jen tonight so hopefully she will have a plan for us to move forward.

B

Oh, man, that stinks. Did he get served for the child support?

Who gets to spend Christmas with your family? You or OM?

We haven't figured out X-Mas yet. That is going to be nasty. it wouldn't surprise me if the kids and I end up at MIL's place while WW and OM spend X-Mas alone in their romantic bliss eating raman noodles!

As for my appointment with Jen, she really likes my 3 pronged approach with WW. Mother is being the good cop, SIL is being the very, very, very bad cop, and I am being the good coparenting partner while we establish two household routines.

For me, I need to be in a modified plan B. With the young kids and DD3's speech issues, I can't go dark. So, for the time being, only communication is about the kids and divorce business. Basically treat her like we are already divorced where we are business partners raising our kids.

Also had a conversation with MIL about WW's post divorce finances. Basically WW continues to look for jobs where she can be flexible for the horses because that is what OM is telling her. With her income from Child Support and her job, after we subtracted out her fixed expenses, she will only have about $350 left over per month for her and the kids to live on. What will OM do when she has to feed the kids instead of buying his cigarettes and booze?

MIL had a good comment about WW's job search - it's almost like she is looking for jobs to have if we were to still be married. I'm the primary wage earner but her job makes a nice contribution but is flexible enough where she can do what needs to be done with the kids. After this, I sent MIL a spreadsheet with what our expenses would look like if we stayed together and lived in my "lifeboat" apartment for a year or so.

B

I, too, am curious where WW gets her money for the new car.

Can you find out?


I'm throwing things out here, but how would WW respond to bribery for Christmas. Y'know a horse drawn carriage trip into the country for a picnic with all the family and a guaranteed no nitpicking truce. All this for old times or children's sake, whatever gets her there.


Please excuse my Machiavellian side. here's another thought: Send a case of beer to your own name on the behalf of a supplier to your farm thanking you for your custom.

Beer + OM + alcoholic = ED + LB's

Just make sure the beer is strong and not that Coors crap that you Americans drink.

SB, are you at a point where you're crossed the line of no recovery? If she were to see her errors tomorrow has the resentment built up in you that R would be impossible?

If money is tight for them why would one want to make it easy for the OM to get drunk. Better to let WW see her OM put himself and his booze first.

I like the "three-pronged approach", too. It's great that you have MIL and SIL on your side like this.

As far as Christmas goes, OM is not allowed around the kids anymore, right? Or does that take effect yet?

IAM,

Jen and I talked about this yesterday. The door is still open to recovery. It will be a long an painful road too. She has to make the first move and SHOW me she wants to recover. As I've learned through this journey, ACTIONS speak much louder than words.

Her sister and I had this conversation too a couple of days ago. She told me that my actions have made a huge impression on her and her mother. If I didn't want her back, I wouldn't be attending BAN meetings, buying every book available on infidelity, scheduling appointments with Jen, and not reaching out to WW's family. The easy way out would have been to kick her to curb and not look back.

B

I see this line of reasoning a lot here ... why is the "hard" thing considered the "right" thing here? Who says the "easy" road isn't the "best" road in these situations?

In many of these situations, BH's miss a golden opportunity to get their WW's to agree to very favorable custody and settlement arrangements, while they are deep in their "fog".

In many cases (OK, MOST), the WW has already left the M, why not use their messed up thinking to the BH's advantage? At least the BH would get some long term benefit to make up for all of this pain and humiliation that they must endure in the interim.

Sorry Road, was the equation unclear?

WW and OM can't afford booze right now. How else does WW get to experience an alky OM who can't get it up?

I agree 100%. Custody is the only good thing that can come from fog. Use it if you can. No one should lose their children because their spouse wanted to cheat.

iam,

We agreed to a shared 50/50 arrangement on custody last week. This was signed, sealed, delivered, and recorded in the courts as well so no more tricks about withholding visitation. Child support was also set which I am very happy about as well.

SIL used the stick portion to help grease the skids for this - she laid out WW's custody case vs mine and told her if she's looking long term she stood a very good chance of losing the kids because of the following which is documented and passes good evidence muster:

- Affair with 2nd cousin relative
- Two PFA's filed and dismissed. Also her getting admonished by the judge in the second case is admissible. All this points towards parental alienation on her part.
- voicemail where she said if I didn't pay child support (no court order to do so + I gave her MORE than required anyways)she would slap another PFA on me
- OM's alcohol problems. Also if OM is found guilty, crimminal record of all household members is the first thing the courts check when we go to court mediation on custody
- the fact that she tried to schedule a psych exam of DS6 without my knowledge even though no custody was filed with the courts.
- my repeated emails and letters from attorney stating under no circumstances are the children to be left alone with OM.

Her case:
- emails from me telling her not to leave the kids with OM.

B

So is OM banned from contact with the kids now?

I don't drink, so wouldn't know about the strength (or anything else) of Coors vs. any other beer. However, you have correctly identified the deviousness of this idea as "Machiavellian." In fact, I'm not sure Machiavelli himself, at his finest, was devious enough to have thought that one up, but he would be proud of YOU, I'm sure!

My only caveat would be that HF would have to be sure the case was delivered on the first day of his 50% custody time so that it could be ingested while his children were safely somewhere else.

tl

Why thank you Thn, but actually Machiavelli was not as diabolic as people have interpreted. He was only trying to steer an honest leader through the minefields of politics when he wrote "The Prince"

Yoda warned me of the "dark side" but I refused to listen.

Yes, I thunked about the beer vs hard tack factor. Hard tack apparently makes aggression, beer just bloats and gives a buzz.

I confess however that I don't drink hard stuff and never get drunk. Maybe a professional drinker can comment...

I'll see if I can get POSOM to post here to give his opinion on beer vs cheap vodka!

ShockedBetrayed,

Just a thought for the safety of your children, although you have likely already done so, see if OM has a record of sex crimes, molestation etc. His name might appear on some state websites.

NJ

Imagine

An alcoholic will do what he has to do to get a drink.

If money is tight, what he binges with will only make things worse in their love nest.

The BH should never do any thing easier for the AP's.

Your logic can be taken that the BH should hold the OM's pants for him. While the OM is doing his WW. Make sure that you remind the BH to hold the OM's pants nicely so they don't get wrinkled. Then to also make sure that the BH does not have any thing fall out of the OM's pockets.

You see... I knew there was a downside to the dark side!

I caught your post regarding "reduced circumstances" on the other thread. You mention WW is interested to try out your new car. Can you contrive a long trip: Her driving and no kids?

Maybe go looking for a small holding or part thereof closer to town that may accommodate future horses. Oh!Hem! purely for the kids of course!

Devious...???

Well, I knew it wouldn't last. After seeing my real W for the first time in a couple of months, WW returned with a vengence! OM must be angry that she doesn't have money for vodka and cigs!

Anyways, on Friday we are talking about arrangements for the kids during X-Mas vacation. She starts to go on about how she is not happy with the custody and visitation arrangements that we agreed to. Basically, she wants more child support. Anyways, we filed based on what the custody / visitation was agreed to.

Now, she is realizing my child support won't be enough to support her lifestyle with the horses. So, I will probably have another PFA filed against me. She can go ahead and do this. All it will do is make her look like a fool.

Does she have any legal footing that could possibly improve her position?

If she is really thinking about another PFA, maybe you should think about that emergency custody order again...

None that I can tell. In fact, when we filed HER attorney was present but mine wasn't. It is all ranting because she is really realizing what she has done. When you fall for a bum, be prepared to live like a bum!

So, what does she have in mind for Christmas or is this a bad time to ask?

Maybe she is starting to wake up a little? And the ranting is getting worse because it's all she has left to cover her awful choices to herself?

WW was checked into a mental hospital last night. I filed for emergency custody today.

I received a call at around 9pm from WW. She says I need to pick up the kids because she needs to go to the hospital.

I go to the house. Her best friend calls me before I get there to tell me to make sure my doors are locked and windows rolled up.

Kids are loaded into the car. Friend tells me I need to go NOW because she is afraid for me and WW. In the background I hear OM screaming. THANK GOD THE KIDS ARE SOUND ASLEEP THROUGH ALL THIS!

WW is checked into hospital and I think they are going to keep her for 72 hours. I talk to attorney and advises me to file for emergency custody because of what happened. I should know if they will grant a hearing tommorrow. If they grant a hearing, the hearing will be in about 10 days but in the meantime I will have the kids. Everyone I talked to said it will come to this.

Why was the friend afraid? Was WW unstable or OM obnoxious???

I'm thinking PFA against OM here...

Shocked, I really feel sh*t for your circumstance and I don't know a polite way to say it.

I pray God watch over you and your family. Meanwhile boot that OM off your farm like yesterdays tuna sandwich. Man, I hope you can!

You may be able to request that the children be kept in your home and have OM and WW thrown out of the house so you can stay there. This would be to minimize the changes for the kids.

This is sad, but it will work out in your favor in the long run. I hope it also serves as a wakeup call for WW. Odds are it won't, but it might.

Protect those little ones from this madness. Don't assume they didn't hear anything either. I have a 6 yo and 2 four year olds and I'm sure they'd be woken up by a loud commotion.

Best of luck to you.

Wow... what a development. I'm praying for you and your kids... and for your WW... although this may be the final straw for you. I hope the courts give you that emergency custody.

I agree this could be a great opportunity for the classic "Land Grab"!!! If the lawyer agrees....

1. Ask a local police officer to accompany you.

2. Rent a truck to move your things back in and inform OM that he takes all his things or they are thrown out. And make sure he takes only his things!!!

This 3 day hiatus accompanied with a possible re-insertion of yourself into the home....add custody could be the final blow.

Find out what happened from this friend and if the OM was making threats!! You can have him arrested for threats or at least a restraining order on him and with his past record that should be easy.

Wow! Could this be rock bottom for your wife? At least the kids are safe with you!

I'm not sure if this is rock bottom or not. WW only gave access to OM and best friend to talk to her at the hospital. It looks like OM is still working on WW and telling her it is us against the world.

Anyways, as for emergency custody, both mine and her families are on board with not letting her having the kids even if the court order does not come through. Everyone agrees that WW needs help. I have a job, and a place to live. I can offer the kids stability until WW gets back onto her feet and better. Then we can look at the visitation schedule again. For the short term, MIL and I agreed that only supervised visitation at MIL's house for the time being. That way, she can do overnights, etc but have someone keep a close eye on her anger. Tell you the truth, I don't think WW knows what she's doing with her anger.

As for the OM, I thought about the land grab but in the grand scheme of things, it is just a small battle. Bottom line is my kids do need a strong mother and we are going to focus our strategy on getting her better.

1st thing is I am looking into a deed in lieu of foreclosure on the house - I can get this accomplished in 45 days which would force WW and OM to find a place. Since WW probably lost her new job this week, she will have to move.

Both MIL and FIL offered up their places WITHOUT OM so WW can get her life in order. I like the idea with FIL - he's further away but he just broke off a 15 year relationship with his girlfriend so it would be good for both of them to heal together. Plus, he is the barn manager for a huge racing / breeding stable in PA and would be able to keep WW involved with the horses that she loves but keep a very close eye on her as well.

Anything that keeps OM busy instead of spending time with WW seems positive to me. And as for the bottom line, the kids need a fog free mother. A strong mother is NOT going to be healthy when you are seeking custody. She needs to face reality. Big time.

There is no small irony that WW is angry with you. Her trail of destruction is a shambles. What she foggily fails to do is take ownership of this destruction.

I am curious how she is even able to afford admission to the hospital without your medical assistance. Dang, if I were paying for it, I am sure that the hospital would have to respect instructions to block OM from their premises. Can you check this out?

There are 4 main conditions for a lender to consider a deed-in-lieu.
1. Foreclosure is imminent and unavoidable
2. The borrower is unable to sell the property.
3. There should be no other liens, or attachments to the property.
4. The property needs to be left in broom clean condition.

If those conditions have been, or can be met, some lenders will consider a deed in lieu of foreclosure, although most lenders will prefer the use of a compromise, or short sale. This is one of the least preferred alternatives to foreclosure and should be the last option explored.

Well, WW was released from the hospital last night. Yesterday afternoon I called WW's friend to see if she wanted to go to DS6's holiday concert with me since DS6 would have liked if she was there.

Anyways, it is standing room only in the auditorium so I stand against the wall with DD3 on my shoulders. Right before the concert starts, I see WW and OM on the other side of the auditorium with OM's arm around WW. They look ridiculous - she looks nice but he is dressed like a bum.

Since DS6 class goes first, I go out into the lobby. A few minutes later, WW starts walking towards us. She says HI and we make small talk. DD3 is still on my shoulders and WW asks her for a hug. DD3 says "NO! MY DADDY!" The look on WW's face is priceless! I tell WW that she does that to me sometimes to (the truth).

WW walks away and she comes back wanting to talk about how the custody arrangement is not working (didn't even start the rotation yet, how she is getting the short end of the stick because she is going to be living like a bum, etc, etc, etc. All while DD3 is on my shoulders. I tell her it is in appropriate to talk about custody and stuff at our SON's holiday concert. I go into the auditorium. She follows me in and gets in my EAR! I walk out again.

At the end of concert, she's walking down the hall with DS6. When DS6 sees me, he runs to me and hugs me! WW starts to go on about how DD3 hair is messy and wants DD to put her coat on. DD3 throws a fit and I tell WW we'll make sure she has it on before we go outside because she is probably hot. As we are walking out, the kids really don't want anything to do with WW. WW tells me she will never forgive me in front of the kids. WW walks towards the main lobby. DS6 tells me we can go out the side door! He saw the situation was trying to avoid conflict too!

B

Wow... in front of the kids and all... I suspect she is careening rapidly toward the point of no return for you?

Was there any news on the emergency hearing - do you know if there will be one?

At this point my Love Bank is going to need a bailout from the government to save the marriage! This is the second time she put the kids in the crossfire...

I'll know something about the emergency custody this afternoon.

Maybe you should be thinking about something like Plan B at this time... just to get out of the line of fire with her. Whether or not your love bank is salvageable...

Of course, that would depend on the laws in your state, too, since you're already going thru with the D.

Any idea why she went to the mental hospital in the first place?

Make sure you bring these incidents up because they are very damaging to the kids and such behavior needs to be kept track of and brought to the attention of the judge.

Make sure you focus on her mental instability and on his record and the genuine fear you have for your kid's wellbeing. Subpoena your mutual friend and have her testify about how she called you and was afraid for you and the kids.

Hey, I'm with Pom on this. Can you still get primary custody as a result of her mental instability?

BTW, I'm seriously chuffed that you are able to calmly field her outbursts. I guess I would have long told her that once D'd, that her upkeep shall become OM's responsibility.

Holy toot.

I am so sad for you-- But I do see an opportunity for you re; primary custody of the children.

Do not give in! Hold firm to your beliefs.
The best way to end an A is to put pressure on your WS and OM. Right now, OM has to meet all of your WW's EN's.

With the removal of the children from her primary care- she is going to have excess stress and EN's.

Be strong, but firm- don't cave to be "the nice dad". You have your MIL, SIL and family in your corner-- NOW is the time to strike a blow. Have your attorney STEP ON THIS.

Your kids need stability, kindness, rational parenting plus extra love at this time. They have a sense of fear about this, too. Kids are very intuitive and smart.

You are clearly the only parent who can provide this-- this is WAY OBVIOUS at this point.

It really does not matter why your wife was checked in. There is a huge stereotype (kind of unfair-- but, hey, not your problem..take it) about mental obsevations.

You can play ignorant (my attorney advised this, under these circumstances and your recent behavior, I can only agree with him/her until I understand better what is happening to you and going on in your life.") This statement is probably not a lie.

I am praying for you and your kids.

Just let me caution you about the whole mental hospital thing.

I checked myself in and reached out for help when I needed it. I was commended for doing so by friends and family and my lawyer said that the fact that I did so on my own free will shows responsibility on my part.

If, however, she was forced in, that's a different story.

She sure sounds like she has anger issues though....

I have another friend who went to a hospital.

I've more common than you may think.

She could spin it in many different ways, but it's important to know what landed her there.

If it was anger or being suicidal then there is reason to be concerned, but it sounds like she's off her rocker overall and it must be really bad to have her own family jumping in on shock's behalf. THAT says a lot.

Pomdbd3,

It was mostly anger which landed her there. At this point, close to 5 months from the date of separation, she's worse off than she was in August if you look at it in terms of moving on with her life. She most likely lost her job, won't have a place to live, and stands a very good chance of losing the kids. All because of the WS Fog that put her in a Fantasyland. Now that her dream of living in bliss with Marlboro Man on our farm barely bankrolled by me is in shambles, it is finally starting to hit and hit her hard.

She harbors ALOT of resentment towards me because she kicked me out of the house and I landed on my feet but she fell on her rear end doing it! I have a job, I have a place to live. She has a place to live but only temporary and no job now. Very scary for her but she did this to herself. Plus she hasn't noticed that Marlboro Man hasn't supported her other than working off his rent by taking care of his own horses.

It's one thing to mooch off of you. It's quite another to have that gone and to have to depend on someone else.

That other person has to suddenly step up and fill in for you, and they are often unwilling to as in the case of the OM.

What's funny about the waywards is that they will blame you for their woes when they are the ones who created the mess and the situation in the first place.

You were fat, dumb, and happy to live the life you were living with your kids when she became an idiot and destroyed your family.

So let her face her consequences, as she's facing them now, and do all you can to secure custody of those kids. It's very disturbing to know she was hospitalized for anger and that is something which will not fly very well in family court.

Keep documenting, keep the faith, and stay strong. The court has a way of seeing through the smoke and mirrors that lawyers throw up and they get to the heart of things.

Best of luck to you and get those emergency motions rolling!

I've had the kids for four days now and it is AWESOME for recovery. I've been taking them to school, talking about school and I'm finally starting to feel like a FATHER again!

I got home with the kids at 5:30. Cooked a nice steak and green beans dinner for the three of us, did a load of laundry, both kids got baths, baked cookies, worked with DD3 with her speech on the computer, read a book to the kids, and they were asleep by 8:15pm! I was the domestic king last night!

Tonight, I'm going to stop in for the the beginning of my BAN support group meeting so everyone can meet the kids and then go see Santa. Should be another fun night with Daddy!

These kinds of things where the kids see you and you only show them that you put them first in your life above all else. Keep that up. I'm sure they'll notice the big difference as they get older and they see which parent devotes their time to their children and which one forces them to share it with another person running around or who leaves the kids with that person to take care of.

I enjoy the Mr. Mom stuff even though it can sometimes be exhausting.

Nothing like checking on your kids before you go to bed and seein them sleep and making sure they're covered.

It's one of the greatest simple pleasures in life.

A few comments and questions:

Do NOT allow her to pin her resentment on you. KNOW that you are FULLY entitled to protect your own and your families interest. She must know that you know. The fog is hers and hers alone.

A pity that you did not have a picture of beauty and the beast. A picture tells a thousand words. Send one to her with your complements. Send a copy to MIL with the caption: Would you buy a used car from this man? Maybe that photo op will still come...

I am glad for your part that you have been able to share quality family time. Savour it.

How are you coping between workplace responsibilities and drama?

Ohhhhhh I do have a picture of beauty and the beast - it's the pic I took of beast completly naked and exposed on our bed with WW snuggled up against him with only a short teddy on. This was taken on DD1.

Between work and drama, my work has definately suffered. Fortunatly, folks have been very understanding. Now that I am getting to a better place, my work is starting to improve and no long term damage has been done (I hope).

WW called last night to vent - no berating, just complaining about her lot in life right now. Somehow I think OM won't tolerate her venting. I listened, said nothing. Then changed to subject to DD3 speech eval on Sunday.

This is good that there is communication between you.

I think that there was an opportunity to boost her at that time. All you had to do was tell her that she had many fine qualities to her credit. Name a few of the qualities and assure her that these would all be to her credit in whichever endeavour she chooses.

There will be another time...

Oh and I would not send THAT picture to MIL. What do you think?

Any thoughts yet for Christmas???

I took DD3 to her speech evaluation on Sunday. She was diagnosed with the same thing my niece has! How's that for freaky? My wife and SIL are identical twins and now their daughters have the exact same speech issue (not to mention the daughters are almost the same age and look identical except for different eye color.)

Navigating through the insurance, getting her set up with a therapist, and working with her will give me something positive to focus on instead of the A. Talked to WW on phone on way back from evaluation and we started to get into it. We both hung up before everything started to get out of hand. Based on her past history and the prior conversation, I had her meet me in front of the police station for the kid swap. DD3 did not want to go with WW! We talked for a little while longer at the station mostly about business.

Earlier this morning, she called me at work and we talked some more business and about X-Mas arrangements. It was pleasant.

An hour or so later, she called again. This time to ask me about EDI transactions my company uses?!?!?!?!?! She wanted to know this because one of the customers at her new company deals with EDI data. I

took your advice Imagine and used this as an opportunity. I was able to engage her into a conversation where she was reminiscing about happier times - such as the running joke we had when she was out on maternity leave with DS and her company kept filling up our basement with freebies to give to Dr. offices but she couldn't get rid of because she was on leave.

We have the appointment with the bankruptcy lawyer this afternoon. We shall see how her attitude is later...By the way, I think MIL already saw the infamous picture. With the holdiays and us getting along for the time being, it is so hard to talk to her about the mundane and not miss W terribly.

Do you still harbor any hopes of reconciliation? If so, you'll probably want to look into Plan B before your Love Bank drains away completely...

I'm sure, though, that it must be really tough to see the woman you loved again, as opposed to the WW, and NOT miss her badly...

This is all such a waste... because the odds are very good she won't be with OM a year from now... and she will have ruined your marriage, her kid's family, and her life... for nothing.

Hey, don't hex SIL's marriage now.

WW anger issues???

I'm not exactly thrilled that she has to experience the presence of OM. Can this be fixed?


She may be just trying to sweeten you up. Nevertheless, take your opportunities where you can.

Are you going to keep us in the dark as to the Christmas arrangements, or are you building up suspense?

SInce everyone has been bugging me about X-Mas, here it is as of this morning:

12/24: with her
12/25, 12/26: With me. She will drop the kids off at 10am on the 25th.

Sad thing is she told me today she did not have the money to buy the kids any presents (but she does have money to feed OM and buy his liquor and cigs.) Nice.

Think about this for a second. How is that "sad"?? Are you providing for your kids' Christmas? So, if she doesnt, wont that put greater strain on the situation she has created for herself?

I think the fact that she cant do it is a good thing, considering where you are at. She wont like it. She'll remember the Christmas mornings before. She will know that Christmas at the family home (your house) will be the same as usual...as the kids expect.

I think, for the long term health of your marriage, family and kids...this is probably a good thing!

Please excuse the thread jack.

Hi MM,

I haven't seen you around these parts in a long time.

How about an update. I hope you and yours are enjoying the Christmas season.

God Bless,

JL

We went to the bankruptcy attorney yesterday. All I can say is WOW! Turns out, the little red car that OM has been driving was bought by WW. The story she has spun for the last two months was OM's mother bought him the car.

In other news, Sunday night she said she was going to turn in her new truck. Last night she said she was going to turn in the little red car.

Wow indeed! How did she manage to get that to fly under the radar?

Are there any legal repercussions to the fraud?

It always shocks me the things that WS's will lie about. They lie even when there is nothing to hide. I'm glad you are in a place now where things are starting to get straightened out. It could be a long road still, though.

Hmm, can you register this vehicle as another taxable item for OM's list?

Two new cars... aren't they both considered marital assets, then? And imagine is right - add that to OM's tax bill!

Hi all, since there's a lot of activity today on other threads around WS moving out with kids, etc, I have a couple of questions for the veterans on the board around custody.

Here's a summary of my sitch in regards to the kids:

- forced out of the house on 8/19 because of a bogus protection order

- had to find an apartment for myself.

- WW forced a continuance on the protection hearing until 9/24 and gave me every other weekend visitation

- Had every other weekend visitation until December.

- Agreed and filed with the courts a shared 50/50 custody arrangement on 12/5.

- Maritial home is going to be sold so WW will have to move anyways

RIght now, WW is trying to find a farm to rent somewhere in PA. The problem is anyplace that she can remotely afford will be too far away for the 50/50 shared or anything but every other weekend to work.

Since she would be moving out of state before the divorce is final, what are my options to keep my shared custody? Just so you know, I sent a similar question to my Lawyer.

Given your WW's recent actions and evidence of mental instability, I would be working on gaining primary custody if I were you. I presume you are staying in the apartment you have already rented? This will add to the stability you can provide the children. I would have this ready before she has made any move.

I agree that you should be seeking primary custody. Given her instability, time in a mental hospital for anger issues, and her proven track record of filing bogus protection orders against you - which indicates a willingness to lie to the courts in order to prevent you from having a relationship with your kids - I'd say you'd have a good case for primary custody.

Your kids need you and the stability you provide. They don't need to be around WW and her alcoholic, con-artist OM.

BTW, is OM still around the kids? You'd said earlier that was one condition you insisted on before you'd talk to WW. Is that in force?

Most states won't allow one parent to take children out of the state without permission of the other parent. She will have to stay local. You can write in a mile radius as well.

My attorney got back to me today. If she moves out of state, the courts will not look favorably at all on her taking the kids out of state since we have shared custody. What this means is it would be up to her to make the shared custody work. Or, she can file a motion to modify custody / visitation but she would be really rolling the dice due to her behavior over the last few months.

Just make sure she doesn't take the kids out of state first before custody arrangements are determined. In my OWH's sitch, OW moved first, then informed him. The judge gave her a lecture that what she did was wrong, but then let her keep DD anyway since moving her back would be further disruption.

JL,

Good to hear from you. I will send an update shortly! Hope yours had a great Christmas also!

I have one call on this...she doesnt get to take the kids out of the state! Period. Do not agree to the kids living out of state. She either stays, or she goes!

Check out what I went thru in my sitch. I got primary custody the first time, and then shared custody (with me having most of the time with the kids) the second time.

But the issue was that the troll wanted my wife to move to Florida (he actually wanted her to leave the kids). She was never going to leave the kids! And not be able to see them. So, it was another wedge there.

so, make it hard on her and him. Defend your family and your kids. If your wife pulls her head out, she will thank you later!!

For me, out of state can mean a bunch of things - I live and work on the DE-PA border. Better schools in PA - if WW moves to a "border" town, no problem. The issue is she is looking at places 90 minutes away. If that's tthe case, she will have to go through the courts. With her mental instablility and OM's arrest record, good luck...

And if you allow her to let them be one foot out of state, what is there to keep her from moving to Pittsburg? Not one inch, my man! Those kids do not leave the state of Delaware. This is a boundary you need to defend!

Shock,

I just went through this fight. The worst mistake you can make is to let it happen.

DO NOT let her move the kids out of state.

State that you simply do not approve.

50/50 really isn't possible unless you guys live fairly close or have a central location that the kids can go to school to.

I'd say that the limit for a 50/50 is a 20 minute drive.

30 max. That's 30 minutes to go from one house to the other.

You go to court and demand that the kids be kept in state. You do this BEFORE she moves. Waiting till after will likely result in a "tsk, tsk" lecture from the judge with little change.

File for full custody NOW and use the excuse of her move out of state as a reason and throw in the mental instability and hospitalization for aggressive behavior.

You need to be proactive for the very reason that you are a man. That alone means you have to be proactive and not reactive.

Finally, put in a limit of 15 minute drive between homes for any custody arrangement.

You simply cannot let this happen. Trust me. I just went through the ordeal. Letting her move puts you at a serious disadvantage in court if you don't have primary custody.

That's why you must forget all pretenses of 50/50 agreement with her and go for full custody with her move as the excuse to file along with the instability, mental health concerns, etc.

Your lawyer needs to jump on board with this and if he/she doesn't, then get another one.

You're a man. You're at a disadvantage as a result. Act now!

Here's my $.02

When I went through my first divorce my ex wife called and said that her mom was comming to TX from MO to pick up my 4 Y.O. Step son. We were separated at the time and didn't have any leagal document stating who had custody or anything else. I told her that her mom comming to take my 4 Y.O. son to MO at this time was not a good idea. My ex wifes response.... well he's not your son and my mom is comming to get him.

So... that was on a Monday...I had to grease the wheels of justice and act quickly. I got a lawyer, filed for divorce and got a restraining order to keep anyone from taking the kids out of state. My ex wife got served at 11 AM on Friday... As soon as she was served I called my mother-in-law in MO to tell them don't bother comming... This was in 94 and not many people had cell phones then... I missed them at home and they drove 10 hours to find out that they wern't taking him out of state.

This was my 4 Y.O. Step son. But I was the only Father he knew and I had developed a parental bond with him. If they would have taken him out of state there would have been nothing I could have done. I would have probably never seen him again and his POS coke shooting, rubber check writing mom would have gotten custody of him.

This really p|ssed off my mother in law.... At the initial hearing she filed an intervention to try and get custody of the boy. I don't think she wanted custody of the two girls but her lawyer probably told her that it would be in the best interest of the children to keep them all together if possible. I won...I had custody of him until he was 13 and then I let him go live with his mother. After 4 years he'd had enough and came back to live with me. She still screwed him up by not doing anything to parent him. She let him do anything he wanted... So... now I'm stuck being the bad guy...

But I figure in another 10 years he'll wake up and eventually tell me thanks for the discipline. That's what happend to all my brothers kids when they got in their late 20's.

A couple of updates - I found out the other day that POSOM was on the emergency contact list for the schools but I wasn't. So, I told WW that I was removing POSOM and she threatened to file another PFA against me...I thought to myself - go ahead.

Last night, WW sent an email out to me, MIL, and SIL:

January 1, 2009

Dear Family and Friend,

I am write all of you this letter to let you know how I feel and how hurt I am by how you have been dealing with my divorce and relationship with POSOM. I was tought by all of you that went things get tough and your down and out that your family was always their for you.

Well, boy was I wrote. You all have listen to BS and all his lies, but I am treated like the not good person, the bad mother and the financially unstable. We let me tell you all, from this point on I will be the only one handling my finances and I will choice to see, date or go out with whose ever I see fix.

I was raised to treat people for the good that they possess, not their past. Maybe I can see the good in people, but all I have gotten is heart ache and tears from all of you. I am tired of belittled and made fun of. You have not one asked How can I help you” you all just sit back and email, text and yell at me on the phone.

Well you finally won, I am isolated from all of you because you all have pushed me away. You all just listen to BS and all his lies. I could have been a jerk and ran around telling you all about BS issues, but I didn’t. You want me to do what you want not what is best for me. Only what you all thing is good for me. Its my life and I am loving to live how I see fit.

I wanted a divorce for a long time, for over a year and half. But I hung for the kids. And you know it made me sick and in pain. Not once did any of you stop to realize how unhappy I was in the marriage. Obviously I wanted out if I was willing to go thought the normal hell of a normal divorce. What I didn’t except was the bankruptcy and the back lash from all of you. I am writing this to all of you because you all are working individually or together to wear me down.

What’s that saying “what don’t kill me makes me stronger” The real reason I when to the hospital was because BS was continuously harassing and the rest of the family mom, and Heather were also continuously call and beating me up about POSOM, and POSOM the kids. I had no where to turn. The ONLY want that wanted to help me was POSOM. He didn’t want me to go. You all would be happy to have me their a lot longer.

I am 35 years old. I do not need a chaperone, a guardian, or a trustee. Do not treat me like a child. Dad, Gerry, Christine have been the only support ones. The funny thing is over the last 6 months the best days I have had were when I didn’t answer my phone, email or test message from all of your including BS. It was peaceful. All of you just stur up the mud so much that it drive me nuts.

I am losing every thing that I have worked for so many years. N I am losing my business, my farm, my house. I have no idea where to go or where I am going. I don’t even know when this place will be sold. You guy need to see I must have wanted out of the marriage very bad if I am will to lose all of this. And I feel like my family had turned their backs on me. You all have been nicer to BS than me.,. I will never forgive him for lying to me about the finances and everything for the last 5 year. I didn’t have my head in the sand. I routinely asked him about the finances and said we were fine and that we can afford what we have. Boy was that a lie. The answer was always YES. I have been betrayed by BS and I also feel I have been betrayed by all of you. You all think I am the idiot, but BS was the one that blow away all the money. You all think POSOM is after my money. Well let me they you I am broke. You all just think about money and will. Why don’t you all try loving the people while they are here on earth rather than dead. Money can not buy happiness. People with less money are just as important as people that are wealthy. You all have become money snobs. Look what marrying th safe bet go me. ---- bankruptcy and a lot of pain. I do know that if Mommom was here I would be able to talk with her and she would see me for who I am. I wish mommom was here. If would be nice to talk with someone that is here on earth.

You just want to think what you want too. Well here the TRUTH

• I wanted out of the marriage years ago, no one ever asked.
• I will never forgive BS as lone as I live for blowing all the money and for him being just a jerk about the divorce
• I love my kids more than anything in this world.
• And I am a good mother and a good person.
• I am most happy when I an working with horses.
• Also whether you like it or not I love POSOM and POSOM loves me. Maybe you could all get off your high horses and met the real person and not was BS, Coco and Harry tells you.
• Just remember everyone has their past, and all of you have one TOO!
• You all have said some horrible things about me and POSOM, and we are all expected to just shut up and smile.
• Some times you say things that people never forget because the scare their hearts so badly. I have many scares on my heart an ironically they are not all from BS , most are from my family. “you’re a bad mother, you’re a cheater, your too stupid to see the real thing. “ There are many more.

This whole process have aged me and frankly I am tired of trying please all off you. The more I try to please all of you the more you all just hurt me, so I am done. I am living for me and my family. Like it or not POSOM is apart of this. So take it or leave it.

BUT I would not take it back, I feel I will be happy again and life cannot be so bad forever. I will make it with or with out my family’s support. I am not going to fight with you anymore.

I am putting the ball in your court. The one think I learned in the hospital was that everyone person has value no matter how messed up they are, and be believe me all of them were messed up. There is always someone worse off than you. A big thing in the hospital was changing your routine and environment or you would just end up right back in the hospital. I learned just because your family was a good support system in the past doesn’t mean that it will be in the future. So in short, if you are not helping me you are only hurting me. Including by talking with BS and letting BS use everything against me. You don’t have to invite us for holiday dinners, but don’t expect me to come by myself. You are all welcome to come to my house so I would expect us ALL to be welcome in your house.

So if you want to talk to BS that is fine, but I am not going to talk with all of your regarding my divorce, the sale of my house, the bankruptcy, POSOM or another things. If you want to be a sister, mother, grandmother, or friend I am here. If not then, I guess we will not be talking for a while. I am doing this to save my helath and no sanity. I am not going to fight an more.

I am loosing all my friends and customers here, but I will find new ones where ever I move. So the ball is in your court. I will not repeat history. We are to learn from history and move forward. I will see you all in the future. You will all end up in the future eventually but some of you may take longer to get out of the past.


See ya in the future.

I love you all, I just hope you love me enough to let me run my own life

Love you,

Wayward Wife

Nothing new or earthshattering - still hurts though.

My dear SIL had the following response to WW's letter:

To WW:

First, when you write a letter to everyone, please make sure you proof it. I could hardly figure out what you are saying in your letter. If this is your quality of work, then you will be fired.

Second, WW, as I have told you before it is not the fact that you divorced BS, but rather, it is the fact that you allow a blood sucking criminal into your and especially your kids lives.

Third, don't bring the dead into your arguments, they are not here to verify your side of the story, and mommom would "not" have approved of your choices.

Four, POSOM has done nothing but isolate you from your family, and he is loving every minute of it. He is playing you like a puppet and that fact that you can't see it just gives him move motive to do it more. He is playing with your mind and you are in too deep to see it. You will see the real POSOM someday and I will NOT tell you I told you so, I will just help pick you up of the ground.

Five, POSOM, will one day hurt you or your kids, and if you can live with that then fine with me, and yes, that makes you less of a good mother in my book.

Six, you are placing POSOM happiness above your kids. He tells you what is best for you and it is only what is best for him. There is a reason why he doesn't talk to his family members. Plus, DAD, and other family members, don't approve of POSOM either. Just ask them yourself-- straight out and not is some long story of your past with BS. You have not called gerry that often to ask, I suspect you are afraid to ask him straight out, since you know he does not approve.

Seven, I have put BS in his place numerous times over the last few months. You and your action have done nothing in my eyes for your kids....only answering to POSOM and not thinking independently. You have to understand the kids are his too and you made the choice to have kids in a bad marriage then you are the idiot. So suck it up and deal with it. If you where not so busy playing house with POSOM then you would realize this.

Please don't tell me that you are doing this all for your kids, b/c good mother chooses to live with a harmful man that is only adding to the kids problems. POSOM, is what he is--you just don't want to admit that you are wrong about him. He is not your white knight, if you want one, go out and find a knight and the devil. You say BS who you where married to for 10 years took all your money and you can't see that POSOM is just looking for a warm body, and some one to pay for everything.

Of course, he says he loves you and that he is the only one that does. As he is sucking you dry mentally, socially, and economically....paying for his horses, and his legal fees and his booz and smokes. He bring nothing to the table, and he will never get a good job do to his criminal record and his past child support. If he and his ex-wife have some agreement about child support then why is it still on the books at the court house. If you can not see this then you deserve the fall out of that POSOM will do to you. Try a little test, ask him to leave and you will see him change into a wild man, just like he turned on his father. Right now you have not challenged him on anything, and if you did, use your brain and try and figure out the truth you would see the man he really is.


Plus, the stuff that I don't like about POSOM are public record and not what BS or anyone else has told me about him. He stinks on paper and he is not a changed man, if he still committing crimes. Most recently, Oct. 4th and you say this will be all fixed. My point exactly, he fixed all the messes that he makes, and he lies to you about the truth. He didn't tell you about his past until I made him explain his past and I questioned you and him on it.

I am done talking to you about the losers, he is not worth your time or mine. I will tell him just how I feel when I see him on the 10th. You can push him on the family but no one is forced to like someone they know is a bad person to the core. POSOM is not a man he is a blood sucking tick, but he dose not suck blood he just sucks your life away, just like he moved in on you when you where vulnerable (ie, when you say your where unhappily married). If you wanted out we could have helped you and BS.

We have done nothing but help you and POSOM has told you to do the opposite b/c it works out better for him and not you of course. If you can't see it then you are an idiot. When you want POSOM out of your life then you call me. Until then, don't tell me that you are doing what is best for your kids, you are being so selfish about what is best for your kids. You can live on your own, or is that what you are afraid to be alone so you hang out with total trash instead of being strong. POSOM is just feeding off your your weaknesses.

Don't tell me the changes that the family have to make--just maybe your the one that has to clean house and make changes.


DSIL

I'd stay out of this one. SIL said it best.

The fantasy is crumbling.

I'll get some popcorn and sit back and watch the show! MIL is also writting a response.

SB

Hi ShockB,

You SIL has neatly tacked OM behaviour. Lets see your wife respond to her testing OM.

Do they know what strain that she is talking about concerning you.

Why do they try to bankroll you into service. Whose idea of bankrolling is it. OM or WS.

What is she talking about killing the farm. She kicked you off the farm. Were there any other circumstances that killed the farm.

But I'm curious, why would she want to want to sink into adultery to escape her circumstances. Will this win her back to a fold. Confirm that she is definitely going to stay with anybody. So far, she has acted as a con man herself. Stealing horseshoes. Given a car from your estate. Shutting you out from your own estate. This lady does not hold a Christian tenet.

Talk to me. Is this the other man?

You have a great sister in law. WW is grasping for anything in desperation to justify her affair.

Yes, I was VERY close to both MIL and SIL pre affair and still am. I have been extremely open with both of them with everything since D-Day. After D-Day,the OM told WS that I erased the hard drives on our laptops to cover up illicit activities. WW believed him even though she had asked me to back everything up which is what I did. Plus, there is NOTHING illicit on the computers.

As for the farm going under, we went all in financially on the place. Our dream was for our kids to be married there and for us to leave it to them. Plus, we bit off way more than we could chew with the horse business as well.

Her timeline with her unhappiness matches when she first met OM. Everybody was SHOCKED to hear about our impending divorce. While our marriage wasn't perfect, there weren't very many red flags either.

What's ironic is she says she is happies when she is working with the horses. She did that for the last 5 years. Now that the D is looming large and she is with the OM who is supposedly a horseman, she won't be able to work with horses regularly because she has to get a steadier job to pay the bills.

Sister in law has been a true friend through all of this. She's hit me with a 2 x 4 when needed and is doing everything in the kid's best interest. She has been a true advocate for the kids. That's why she's come down so hard on WW.

Shockb,

That makes sense. Show her all the angles that led to downfall of the farm.

Now some of those things would have to be apportioned blame. Who is what downfall. Yours, hers and OM fault.

How is playtime with the kids panning out. What is OM riding around nowadays. Can you stop him from caring the kids.

Do the kids really understand what is going on with the divorce.

SB,

I've followed your thread and I feel for you. You have had a really bad situation. I hope things improve soon for your kids sake even if that means Plan D.

You may want to put a shout out to Schoolbus to ask her to analyze the email from your WW. She is a handwriting expert and I've seen her analyze emails on other threads and it is very interesting. She can help you decipher the 'true feelings' that your WW is having right now vs. what is written in the email.

Just a thought I had... Best of luck to you!

Mindshare

Wow, what a confused email she sent. Is she normally so prone to typos, misspellings and grammatical errors? If not, I'd say she is really starting to buckle.

Sad to think she wants to believe it is all true. The capacity for self-deception that people have never ceases to amaze me...

Did your MIL respond to her?

Shocked...I know these are bad times, but in regards to what your WW wrote...well, I LOVE it!! She is coming unglued, while at the same time, trying to tell everyone she is happy and isnt coming unglued!

Remember the old adage...when your enemy is trying to defeat himself or herself, dont get in the way!

You're right - it's a glimpse into the WW mind when their fantasy is ripping apart right before their very eyes. I've resisted the Pepperband reverse fog babble as well. If you recall, WW wrote that she's been unhappy for years. Then a couple of sentences later she says she is happiest when she is working with the horses.

The ironic thing is she was working with the horses 24 /7 prior to OM who is supposedly a horseman. If the D goes through, she'll be working an office type job just to survive and will not have any time or money for the horses even though she left me for a horseman!

It's poetic justice... but it's also sad to see someone who has so deluded themselves that they are destroying their family and their own chance of happiness...

When your divorce is final and OM has left her for greener pastures... and she finally comes out of the fog and delusion... she is going to be absolutely destroyed. And the devastation will be so complete... it will best be described as "diabolical".

I'm praying for you, Shock, and for your kids... but I'm also praying for your wife.

(Edited to add: praying that she wakes up before she has totally demolished everything she ever held dear... and praying that she recognize that she needs to make serious changes in herself before blaming anyone else...)

I spent the day trying to find a speech therapist for DD3. She used to be very outgoing but is starting to become very self concsious and frustrated about not being able to fully express herself.

WW and I will need to work with her extensively to solve her issues. That is another casualty of affairs - DD3 was in danger of falling through the cracks because of WW and the D. The unfortunate thing is this problem would be much easier to solve with us together.

WW also thinks DS6 has major behavior issues such as ADHD. I don't think so - he is a class clown type who LOVES attention. I have not had any issues with him when I've had him. I think his issues are more because WW does not have time for him because of OM and the horses. On Wednesday we are both going to see a pediatric counselor about DS6. It shall be interesting what the counselor says...

Keep us posted about the the appointment.

Bump for Zambo

WW and I went to see the counselor on 1/8 about DS 6. Of course WW spun things about how great a person OM is. I think I just about gnawed through my tongue during the appointment! THe counselor did think it was quite odd that OM moved in the night I left the house. WW didn't think there was anything wrong with that! Some shining examples of fogbabble from the appointment:

- my vasectomy was several months before I love you but not in love with you. (Vasectomy was 7/25, ILUBNILWU was 7/28)

- OM was not arrested for crimminal tresspassing or offensive touching.

- OM is wonderfull - the dishes are done, dinner is on the table, and the 13 horses are done by the time WW gets home from work. NEvermind 10 of the 13 horses are OM's!

A couple of other news items - even though the emergency ex parte custody did not go through, the modification of custody hearing is scheduled for sometime in March. WW was LIVID when she heard about this. I'm going to keep the hearing date - WW needs to still find a place to move to after the house goes under and if she moves far away, we will wind up in court anyways. If she doesn't have her crap together by the hearing in March, it will put me at a huge advantage for custody. I have a job and a place to live. She may have a job but no place to live. Advantage, BH!

In addition, POSOM's trial is on the 26th. If he's found guilty, advantage: BH!

How did OM duck out from the offensive touching and criminal trespassing.

Also, I presume there was no conclusion drawn about the poor speech. I think that someone needs to tell him.

Well done that you held your tongue in front of WW. I don't know that I could have.

Hi all,

Yesterday was my birthday, DD3 and DS6 got me and XBOX 360 for my birthday - courtesy of my folks!

I returned the kids at the supermarket last night. I knew it was going to be tense - WW was still seething about the custody order. We met - I had to sign the listing agreement for the house. She wanted me to get in her truck to do it - absolutely no way was I going to fall for that trap. It should me noted I also had my tape recorder in my pocket as well.

After we signed the papers, she started asking me what I was going to do about the custody order. I told her :

"I don't want to talk about it. I need to get to a spinning class. Besides, the kids are in the truck."

I got in my car, she then put her hand on my car door so I couldn't close it. I told her multiple times to let go so I can close my car door. A long stream of WW fogbabble emitted from her mouth. Finally, she let me close my car door and I drove away.

Anyways, I had the kids for 5 straight. It was fun but exhausting. On Wednesday, Itook the kids to their swimming lessons at the Y. DD3 is like a fish! She kept telling me and the instructor - "Big Girl" and refusing to let us hold onto her while she practiced her skills!

On Thursday, DD 3 had her first private speech session. It was very interesting. At her age most of the speech therapy is play based. The therapist had a doll house. THe first thing DD did was grab the bed, Said Mommy when she put the mother in the bed, said Daddy when she put the father in the bed, and said "Me" after she put the child figure between mommy and daddy in the bed. I did not give the therapist any background on the situation at home.

After speech therapy, DS6 had his first counseling session. The counselor said it went well. She didn't cover much with me - she said she needs a couple of more sessions before she can make any type of determination.

On Friday, we went out to dinner then went swimming after dinner at the Y. We had a blast!

On Saturday, we were invited to MIL's house for dinner. SIL was there too so the kids exchanged X-Mas gifts. I had to take the kids to MIL's house since WW refuses to take the kids to see their Aunt.

For Sunday, the kids bought me the XBOX and we played Lego Indiana Jones all day! What a fun game! DS6 is pretty good at it too!

All in all, a fun 5 days.

Hi again - I changed my sceen name to PSUBIKER. I figured my old name of ShockedBetrayed was too depressing and wanted something more positive.

Do you think WW is letting DD sleep with her and OM?!?!?

It wouldn't surprise me - DD pretty much always crawled into bed with us. WHen I caught them, they were lucky DD wasn't in bed with them. Usually DD came into our room about the time I caught them.

Oh no no no no! You need to STOP this. This is how child abuse starts. I don't care what your WW says. OM does not belong in bed with your DD!

Echoing princess meggy.
I wanna barf.

Also if this IS happening, I can PROMISE you that CPS would yank those kids in a heartbeat. I've seen it happen before for this very thing.

Ok - there's no way for me to verify for sure if DD is getting in bed with Mommy and OM. What are my next steps? I do not want to ask DS6 or DD3 if this is the case - that's putting them in the middle. Do I just call CPS and voice my concerns with them? Will they investigate it just based on hearsay?

Get your DD an appointment with your son's counselor TODAY. Tell the counselor you suspect something and want him/her to see if they can get any information!

Your DD's speech therapist "witnessed" this. Tell your child's counselor about it. Get him/her to recommend any action to CPS. They have a duty to protect the child if they feel the child is being harmed.

Hi Psu,

Had to double check to make sure I had the right writer.

I am so sorry that you have to experience these hassles. Difficult to maintain a cheerful glance when war is declared. Apart from the tape was there any other witness.

In CA, your daughter's speech therapist would be a mandated reporter. It would be AGAINST THE LAW not to report something if she had any suspicion of it. However, if she doesn't know that there's another "daddy" in the picture, she can't even begin to apply the proper analysis to what your daughter did.

In my adopted grandchildren's case (and at about the same age, too), their bio-mom wanted every guy that wafted through her bed to be called "daddy." (And at least one of them DID molest her.) With OM in the picture, and in the bed, there is a real possibility that the "daddy" in the bed is not you. It's a strong likelihood that your wife is doing the same, to set the children up to accept the new arrangement. The therapist can't know this possibility unless you tell her. Figure out a way to state your concern with calm neutrality, and then let the therapists go from there. How children play in therapy can have great significance.

tl

PSUB,

I missed it somewhere, but what is your new custody arrangement?

Let her rant and rave. You've been given a fair amount, from the sounds of it.

Glad to hear it. Strike one for the good guys.

And keep that recorder rolling. Getting her on tape refusing to let go of your door and doing this stuff in front of the children is very valuable for when you do finally have a custody trial.

Be aware, however, that you will have to provide these recordings in disclosure, which comes before you go to trial.

Hang on to them till 24 hours prior to your trial. Give it to them then and they won't have as much time to prepare to rebuff the recordings.

But follow what your lawyer tells you.

If their attorney does a formal request and PSUB withholds this evidence, the other side can file for sanctions against PSUB AND his attorney. The judge could even throw the evidence out! He'll have to explain to the judge why he didn't produce them when asked (if the other side asks properly). If they don't ask, then too bad, so sad for them.

I guess he could also claim they were "lost" but now they're "found" but that would be lying to the Court. Probably not a good idea.

I was using the example of how my ex's attorney did things. He handed things over 24 hours prior to the hearing.

But perhaps it's best to do as you say and play it safe that way.

What if WW does not know I taped her? The real reason I have the recorder going was because of the two restraining orders she filed against me that were proven in court to be figments of her imagination.

Make sure you're in a one party state or you could be breaking the law.

Record her if you can record her. Record every interaction. Record her ranting at you.

But make sure you're in a one party state before you do.

You can usually google that and find out if you're in a two party state or one party state.

If you're in a one party state, then you're golden and count yourself lucky that you can record away without her consent.

If you're not in a one-party state, maybe you could just have the tape recorder out in the open when you meet with her. The purpose of the tape is to prevent her from making groundless abuse claims, and if she sees you are recording the transaction, that would be a deterrent to her doing so.

It would save you losing time with your kids, too, since it seems like every time she makes a groundless complaint, you get banned from seeing the kids for a couple of months.

I don't think, though, that you would get into trouble by recording your own encounters with her, even if your state isn't "one party". At worst, it might not be admissible in court. That's just my opinion, though, and you'd be well advised to solicit the advice of someone who really knows...

Holding the recorder in view and saying "you're being recorded" is enough in most states to have implied consent on her part and let you keep recording.

Today is OM's trial. We shall see what happens...

In other news, I exercised my rights in regards to the freedom of information and accessed OM's child support issues in PA. Turns out, he has an outstanding bench warrant for his arrest as well as a couple of contempt of court charges!

WW is itching to get our taxes done - she needs the refund and we already agreed to split it. I sent her an email today telling her we are going to have to 1099-B the OM because of the barter arangements. I also sent WW a link to the Federal Child Support enforcement unit saying it is a Federal Crime to be in arrears for more than $5000 for a year or more.

She will go ballistic but right now her hands are tied. We have a child support mediation on 2/11. We agreed to a payment amount in December but we didn't mention anything about medical coverage so we have to go to mediation anyways. If she does not agree to 1099 the OM, all I have to do during the mediation is point out how she is helping OM to hide income to avoid paying child support. I'm sure the court will not look too kindly on her. Believe me, I have all this paperwork together as well as the IRS laws around barter transactions. I also talked to a couple of accountants as well as the my buddy who runs the tax department for a major Pharmaceutical company.

Should be interesting... do you know if he has actually gone to trial, or if he has delayed it once again?

Sounds great about the tax situation - you've got your ducks in a row. It's about time someone held OM to account.

pk,

What is your custody arrangement?

Is his trial over the unpaid CS? Can you turn him in for arrest?

Amazing that she thinks he's a wonderful man.

IIRC, he said this trial was for breaking and entering his (OM's) father's house.


Yeah, can you?

Update:

OM copped a plea for probation and anger management classes. OM has to pay for the anger management classes and complete them within 4 months. It's about what I expected.

In regards to the child support, since we live in DE and the order is in PA, the custodial parent has to initiate an enforcement action across state lines. If WW and OM move back to PA, it will be open season on OM by the buereau of child support enforcement. I'm also researching with the Feds - evidently it is a federal crime to live in one state and be over $5000 in arrears for another state for over a year.

Either way, the WW will be VERY uncomfortable during the child support mediation because of this information. She's stuck - she provided him a car to work under the table (I have an email from her about this) plus if she doesn't 1099 him, she'll be viewed as helping someone hide income to avoid paying child support yet is trying to put the screws to me.

BTW, the nice thing about DE is there is an online calculator for the Melson formula where you just plug in the numbers. The amount I am paying her is verified and documented with back up paperwork. I spent the better part of the weekend putting together my case for the mediator. Best case is I'm not paying as much as I am now. Worse case is I pay what I'm paying.

PSU,

You're in an increasingly good situation to get primary custody of your kids.

I'm going to ask a friend of mine who is a cop, but I'm sure you can get him arrested now. I have a friend of mine who works in Child Support Enforcement and she chases people like him down.

I might save my info and my cards for a custody hearing and not reveal them in mediation.

You should be requesting primary custody and you have tons and tons of good reasons to get it.

Seriously, her hospitalization and her involvement with this guy is a ton to work in your favor.

Current custody arrangement is 50 / 50 shared. She gets the kids Mon and Tues, I get the kids Wed and Thurs. We alternate every other weekend.

Luckily I still have a lot of "atta boy" chips at the company I work for. I moved into a dirt cheap place right across from work back in August when I had the first protection order filed against me. 3 br, 2ba, dishwasher for $845 per month in Newark, DE is a STEAL. The bad part is I'm 35-40 minutes away from the house.

My thinking was WW will most likely move to SE PA horse country which keeps me within a 30 minute drive for the kids.

WW was very, very apprehensive about the driving. However, due to my supply chain / logistics background, I am very, very efficient in the morning! I get the kids up at 6am, by 630am the kids are dressed, groomed, fed and loaded into the car. I drop DD3 at daycare at 7:08 AM and drop DS6 at school at 7:21am. I am back north and at my desk at work by 8:15am.

WW also gets the kids up at 6am. But, she has to take care of the horses, etc and she gets the kids to school at the same time I do. So the kids sleep schedule does not change.

In the afternoons, I pick the kids up by 5pm and have them back at my place by 5:40pm. WW picks the kids up at 5:45 and have them home by 6. Overall, the kids spend LESS time in daycare when they are with me even though I drive more. It is a lot of driving for me but the kids really enjoy spending more time with me.

As for primary custody, I will fight that battle if the time comes. The house is on the market and WW will have to move where we can keep the current arrangement or we I will file a motion to modify custody.

Another thing, the divorce paperwork will be sent to me on Feb 2nd to sign to make the D final. I am not sure how I will react when I get it. Since I filed, I determine when it is over!

WW is pushing HARD for me to sign the decree ASAP. I almost think she and OM are going to run off and get married. Once the decree is issued, she is OFF my health insurance. She currently does not have any health insurance and will have to pay $500 per month in COBRA coverage. So, it is in her best interest for me to delay as well.

Just a thought... How does OM legally get to stay on the farm with so much debt against you and your missus.

Your are declared bankrupt. What mechanics allow the worker to stay on the farm.

I presume when WW is divorced, then you are going to be expected to have to shell for medical payment for kids. What can these people do if they are married.

What can you say that will prevent divorce, legitimately.

You can have him arrested if PA will extradite.

I would call the PA CS office and report him to them. They might contact the authorities themselves. I have a friend who's job it is to track people down who are behind in CS.

Some great news! We have a very, very good offer on the property! Offer is 10K below asking price but within 2% of original asking price. Plus, the buyer is already pre-approved for a mortgage! SWEEEEEEEET!

No strings attached other than the typical boilerplate in an offer.

I am prepared to take the offer and run. But, it would require WW and OM to find a place within 30 days for them and the horses. However, that is not my problem.

Cool! Great news, especially in this economic climate!

Do you think WW will balk on accepting the offer?

Great, get your lawyer to move this sale through ASAP.

When the OM can' use the WW to put a roof over his head and his horses I bet he will start looking for a replacement OW real fast.

You really have done an awesome job lining everything up. I am from very close to where you are, I used to live in Chester County PA, which is where I assume she is going to be heading?

WW still hasn't accepted the offer. I emailed the realtor to tell him I accepted the offer as is. We WON'T get a better offer than this for the house.

In other news, the kids did not have school today. The kids stayed with WW last night. At 8:30 AM, I got a VM from her saying the kids don't have school and if I can watch them. Mind you, I get to work at 6am so my day was in full swing. She found a nieghbor to watch the kids. However, during the day she did not attempt to contact me so I had no idea where the kids were. So, I went to pick the kids up at 5, still no contact from her. Finally at 6, she calls and blames ME for not taking care of the kids during the day. I told her the kids were with you - its your responsibility to get them to school / daycare / etc. Plus it was her responsibility let me know of a change in plans. The kids ended up missing their swimming lesson.

Typical WW entitlement crap. The kids always pay.

Wayturds all deserve a bus with their name.

PSUB,

I have a friend who works in Child Support Enforcement. If you wish, we can talk offline, but I told her the details about POSOM that I knew. She says that if there is a warrant for his arrest that she can very easily contact her counterpart in PA, provide him/her with the location of POSOM, and then have him arrested and extradited to PA.

The offer is there for you. Let me know if you wish to contact me about it and let one of the mods know you wish to do so by clicking on "Notify" and telling the mods to give me your email. I can then get you rolling on this if this is something you wish to try.

How long have you got before the sale must be signed?

"PSUB,

I have a friend who works in Child Support Enforcement. If you wish, we can talk offline, but I told her the details about POSOM that I knew. She says that if there is a warrant for his arrest that she can very easily contact her counterpart in PA, provide him/her with the location of POSOM, and then have him arrested and extradited to PA."

I have never seen some one get an offer of help this great on MB.
I hope and pray that you take this opportunity and move on it today.

Yes I am moving on this opportunity. Thank you, Thank you, Thank you.

In other news, the house sold. WW came to her senses. Plus, the buyers really, really want the property. The next step now is to move everything out.

WW and I were talking on the phone this afternoon - I mentioned that my lawyer was not going to attend the Child Support mediation on the 11th - it's just numbers from back up documents that get submitted and spit out in the Melson formula. The WW DID NOT KNOW ABOUT THE MEDIATION!!!!

I wanted to kick myself for assuming she would know about her own petition! If I didn't mention it to her, I could have the mediator attribute income to her since she didn't show! Oh well...

So where does this leave your wife financially? Equity cut, Child support, and Job?

I can't but help seeing this lady try to explain what happened to her life years down the line.

Psub,

If you wish to do it, then you need to let the mods know that you want to contact me offline and that I'm ok with it. I'm going to notify them that we can communicate offline and they'll let us exchange emails.

I took up the offer to have the enforcement officer look to extradite to PA. Hopefully they'll get the POSOM.

I was talking with a woman who works with me - her daughter's father owes 23k in child support. However, she stopped pursuing it. Her daughter graduated from college and felt like what's the point? She didn't want to put her daughter through it either.

This is what these POS do - the try and outlast the custodial parent and they end up winning and the children suffer because of it.

Looking ahead, I have no idea what WW is going to do in 4 weeks. She has to find a place for herself, POSOM, the two kids, 8 horses, and 4 dogs. In the buyer's original offer, they offered to let her keep some of her horses on the farm for 6 months as long as she took care of them. However, in our counter offer, she rejected this! If anything, it would give her time to find a place for the horses.

As for what we are going to get in property division, we won't get much. But, eventhough we are both filing for bankruptcy, it looks like we will save all of the capital assets including the house.

For me, the bankruptcy is going to suck short term - I'll be a renter for a few years but living on my own, my expenses are low and I have a good job. I should be able to rebuild my credit eventually. Her on the other hand...I don't know. She is starting out in a more precarious situation than when we graduated from college!

I've passed the info, but don't know if she'll get it till Monday. She's willing, though, and will take action.

Have you talked to an advisor into your options other than bankrupcy?

Perhaps you could argue to the court that bankrupcy isn't good for the children and that you should be able to stay there with the kids.

I still think you should have primary custody, given her crazy behavior.

What's the status on that? What arrangement do you have?

We have 50/50 shared custody. She has the kids Mon / Tues night, I have them Wed / Thurs, then we alternate weekends.

As for persuing full custody, I may get it by default at the end of the month. WW has zero money. She also had a 10K CD in her name seized by the bank a couple of weeks ago. Turns out one of the CC she maxed out was at the same bank and she has not made payments so the bank took the CD.

So, WW may be homeless since she will have very little cash for a security deposit on a new place.

For the bankruptcy, we are filing separately. Beleive it or not we did not own one joint credit card between us. She is definately chapt 7, I am borderline chapt. 7 vs chapt. 13. I would rather have 7 - it discharges all the debt and I can start rebuilding my credit in 6 months.

psubiker

"In the buyer's original offer, they offered to let her keep some of her horses on the farm for 6 months as long as she took care of them"

Make sure this offer never gets made again if possible.

Great you took that offer. Keep us posted on that.

Gratefully the place is sold...

Do these horses not belong to you as well? I'll be dang amazed that there is material possession for WW at the end of this bankruptcy.

Had a GREAT day with the kids. We made some breakfast. Then, this afternoon we went to the park and then rode the bikes. Played some XBOX with DS6 too. He LOVES Lego Indy and Lego Star wars. A lady from work who recently divorced has a DS6 and DD3 - same age as mine was at the park with her kids as well. We talked about work and took the kids to McDonalds. No worries - no realationship for us. We witnessed first hand the fallout from an office relationship gone sour.

Last night, the kids and I went swimming at the Y. We had a BLAST.

The only thing that slightly ruined things was a call from WW at around 9am this morning. She said she didn't realize closing was 2/27! She was blaming the realtor for telling her! I told her I knew about it because I saw it in the sales agreement.

She kept telling me "how am I going to get all of this done? This move is going to be so hard!"

I just said Yup!

I agree with her - I don't know how she is going to do it. We had a hard enough time 4 1/2 years ago doing it ourselves. She wasn't working and did all the packing. Now, we have a lot more stuff. Plus, we had a place to move everything to! Here's what she needs to do in 4 weeks:

- Find a place to live for 2 adults, 2 kids, 4 dogs, and 10 horses. Keep in mind she brings in about 2700/mo after taxes and has close to 1400 in car, truck, and horse trailer payments. Of course, Snaggletooth doesn't work.

- pack up her things and move to a new place

- do all this while working a full time job.

wow - that is a recipe for a financial collapse and this is after Ch7?

I suppose she will have to get rid of a few horses. Amazing what a wayward will give up for an unemployed "snaggletooth".

Oh when does the WW admit/realize that her OM will not/can not meet her needs.

ya know TR - just my pov

This WW is teetering on a total meltdown. You can feel there will be a drama episode very close in the near future. I do hope PSU can protect the kids from the inevitable breakdown. He might be her only savior when she finally crashes.

She did sell a couple of horses this weekend. Little does she know that my A is already drafting papers for discovery of her business activities - the horses are assets of her business and any sale of assets goes into property division. Plus, since part of her business is the sale of horses, it should also go into her child support calculation too.

ur good - sounds like you have things covered. You realize that there is a meltdown on the horizon? be prepared.

We're waiting for the meltdown. She's already had two. One in court back in November and then last month.

She did sell a couple of horses this weekend. Little does she know that my A is already drafting papers for discovery of her business activities - the horses are assets of her business and any sale of assets goes into property division. Plus, since part of her business is the sale of horses, it should also go into her child support calculation too.

Isn't this business half yours as well?? The value of the horses is mutual property!!

Oh, how I laugh devilishly at the thought of the possibility that we could add an arrest of OM to the whole equation. Perhaps we can time it to all hit right aroud the 27th of Feb.

I really, really hope my friend in the CS enforcement can come through.

If that happens then:

Is there any way that you can help meet her needs without the presents of OM.

This is how OM got his claws into WW.

Can you return the compliment?

As for meeting her needs, I going for domestic support right now. She has no time to take the kids to Dr appointments, paperwork for the schools, bake cupcakes, etc. I've been doing all that stuff plus arrangeing DD3 speech therapy.

This is actually meeting your kid's needs, not hers. It's also handy ammunition if and when you have a custody battle.

On another note:

My friend hadn't received the email I sent before. I resent it this morning and am following up with her. Will keep you posted.

POMDBD3,

Thank you for forwarding everything on.

As for me, I am waiting for the final divorce papers to show up tommorrow. I'm not sure how I'll feel. It's up to me to send them to the commissioner to issue the decree. It just boggles my mind that a friendship that started 23 years ago, blossomed into love 13 years ago is now ending in divorce. It's not what I want, it's not what the kids want. Maybe one of these day's WW will see the devastation she has caused me, the kids, her sister, and most importantly, herself.

It's going to happen... After OM leaves for greener pastures, she will be forced to see what a mess she has made of her life. And then she will realize what a mess she has made of your life, of your kid's lives.

She is going to crash hard, and her life and self-image are going to be totally demolished. Her life will be like Hiroshima. And she will feel it.

This whole thing... the OM's predatory subversion of her... it is nothing short of diabolical.

AW's husband here

I'd give you the advise I'd give my troopers in a situation like this. It all sucks and is unfair but its what you have to work with. Sometimes you just have to suck that up and do the best for the kids and forget the ww for the time being.

Your ww has been so brainwashed that I have this niggling thought that after all of this washes out whichever way it ends, that you may find that the OM and your ww had an earlier inappropriate relationship maybe in her teens before your marriage. There may be a heap of FOO issues there.

Right now I don't think your ww is salvageable, she is just too far under om influence. I 'd say look to saving your kids from the coming collapse & see if you even want to give it a try later on with your ww, if shes even still there. I wouldn't be surprised if she takes off with the om to parts unknown, she is acting pretty way out there when the om is around.

Get custody if possible and maybe a order that the kids cannot be removed from the local area.

Perhaps you could offer to your ww to look after the kids for a few weeks while she packs and moves – to wherever. Then YOU will know they are safe and ok.

And frankly I would be even more determined to see them away from your ww if the om does a runner or drops her like a hot rock. She'll likely spew out the poison like Mt St Helens and the kids really don't deserve crap like that, or even to see or hear it.

Yes I know its so easy for me to say do this stuff, but really, what choice do you seriously have for the kids right now? Walking away is hard, but you need to be sane and in good shape to look after your kids, they are so going to need you over the next few years.

There may be reconciliation and recovery down the road however I'd be suspicious of any sudden turn around right now. To be honest for some reason your ww actons set off a whole lot of red flags for me but I'm not sure why. I don't think you can save her either. Just do whats best to see the kids protected.

Ask her what you can do for her. Tell her you care. Explain that you are on a tight time budget and fiscally compromised. The point is - talk to her, nicely.

Frak being nice. Be indifferent.

But nice? Why?

What's the point?

Seriously, there comes a point when the damage is so great that I don't see the point of being nice to someone who has betrayed you, taken your children, disrespected you, stabbed you in the back, taken your property, and turned your life upside down.

Forget nice.

Don't be mean. Be indifferent.

I'm trying to be indifferent. But, it is very, very hard to be nice to someone who has done what she did. If there were no kids involved, I would have walked away as fast as I can. But, it is impossible not to be triggered because of how much she is hurting the kids.

THere is no point in being nice. All it got me was a divorce. Indifference is best.

Best to do what is a 180. Moving on, pleasant, self sufficent.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We know what she has done and how she has done it. Nothing new in WW stakes.

Where has it been that that you have quit trying to get back mom.

You experienced guys know the deal. Momma is expecting disaster. OM has been her savior. Have you quit plan A to get better deals with the kids.

Can you please tell me your plan?

ITA, just out of curiosity, are you planning on keeping any of the horses?

I don't know why I am asking... maybe i was thinking that maybe one of them is special to you or if they just mattered to her.

Hey PSU,

You've done so well so far and stressed elsewhere how deep in the red you've gone.

Scrap Plan A and go straight into Plan B.

This is obviously to protect yourself and to help bring her to that rock bottom.

What would you say:

Thanks for the years before this time which you enjoyed. Thanks for two great kids.
Various things that she has done has underscored her credibility. You do not wish to experience this again. To protect yourself would she please continue to communicate through X.
Child transfer will take place 10 feet away that communication between you shall be limited.
When there is no OM, communication may become possible.
May God be gracious to you. Goodbye.

psubiker

I remember when you first came here in September 2008. Six months have flown by. In this time you have accomplished a lot.

When the OM leaves her after he finds a place to keep his horses will be the first day your WW will hear the fog horn.

Will her fog clear. Some WW's won't because they will always refuse to admit the reckage they left in their wake.

I hope she clears so she can at least become a good mom again.

Once the divorce does through I think that you may need to do a plan B to heal. Kick this around. Ask some veteran WW's.

A dark plan B is where I intend to go once all of the loose ends are tied up. This means by the end of the month. I've been in a modified plan B for a about a month and a half - with little ones and one with a recently diagnosed speech issue, we've had to have some form of civilized contact. Looking back, I can only recall one conversation where we just BS'd with each other like old times. THe rest was around the divorce or kids logistics.

By the end of the month, the following will be accomplished:

- divorce final

- bankruptcy filed and in process

- closed on the house sale

- my stuff from house tucked away in storage for future use or E Bay

- child support set and finalized. We filed a couple of months ago but did not fill the paperwork out right so we are seeing the mediator. Plus I want to point out to the courts how she lied about the daycare costs as well as sticking me with 3/4 of the bill when we agreed on splitting it.


Things still up in the air

- Where WW will live with her 4 dogs, 10 horses, and OM

- How to manage DD3 speech therapy issues

- Moving the kids to a new school

Nothing I do while OM is around is going to sink into WW's head. Hence, plan A won't work. He's been playing her since June about my "evilness" and anything positive I do is immediately spun back to her by him as being devious. This has been pointed out to her by pretty much everyone.

As for the horses, that is her problem right now. I have no interest in keeping any. I knew going in I was marry a horse person. She has sold several over the last few months. She has talked like she thinks the horses aren't maritial property.

Property division happens after the decree is granted. I'm keeping my cards close to the vest about the horses - they are assets so will be included in property division per my attorney. I KNOW she liquidated a lot of the horses to pay for OM and her bills which means their value will come out of her split of the house.

Ok a FWW opinion on when or if your ww will defog?

well I would say its conditional from what info you have supplied.

IF she is left hanging onto om's coat tails while he finds another victim to suck dry ... then it will be longer and perhaps far far to late for anything but a shrug from you in the future.

However

if om takes off due to the pressure coming on from child support and the need to keep 10 horses for sale then I'm guessing the sudden stop as she encounters the ground will be quick and very messy.

I'm not sure if the fog will fade though for some time in any event. It isn't just the affair to deal with but her abuse of the children by trying to use them against you in getting restraining orders. To admit all of that will be overwhelming and is likely to be resisted by her for sometime.

Its difficult to put into words now how I felt while fogged out... the most absurd and sordid things made so much sense to me
but no one else. It felt like everyone else I new.. family & friends were JUST SO STUPID ... I knew I was so right about everything. no one could tell me anything.

My guess is your ww will lie... wheedle... try lots of things in the meantime to get her own way. She won't really understand what Plan D really means either. And expect to be blamed for everything from the stock market crash to the loss of land values and everything in between.

IF she splats hard as many here are guessing if om goes (hopefully) ... then you will be faced with a choice of D and hanging around to see if anything can be built from the ground up .. or you D and find another road without her to happiness.

I am holding out some faint hope for you both in the long term though. As long as om is out of the picture & she gets a lot of IC to be able to resist leeches like him.

Aussiewife,

Believe me, the running joke between the extended families is its MY FAULT! By this I mean if it's on CNN, I did it.

WW has lied, lied, and lied some more so she can protect her POSOM. For instance, on the infamous red car, back in November and December she said OM's mother bought it for him. Then, in the bankruptcy meeting, she let it slip it was her's. In the beginning of January, she said she turned it into the dealer. Last week, she was driving it.

The inspections on the house were done a couple of days ago. I got a call from WW and it sounds like she wants the sale to fall through. She was saying stuff that if this deal falls through, she is going to get a new realtor to list the house higher etc. She said she is worried about the buyers coming back with a lot of things after the inspection. I told her we'll have the same issues no matter who the buyer is - to assume that the buyer is dumb is a bad way to sell a house.

It's pretty obvious she's really sweating about being homeless in three weeks.

Let her sweat. And let the OM deal with this now...she is going to be his burden. (Or is it the reverse? )

Too bad you didn't know in advance just which part of the horse you were getting!

tl

Waywards are SOOOOOO pleasant to talk to! After two false PFA's as well as all sorts of wild accusations, every conversation I have with WW is recorded.

So, I text her this morning that I filed my taxes married, filing separately. I claimed the kids as well deducted the mortgage interest. We had originally agreed to file jointly so we can deduct the business losses off of my i)ncome. Last week I had requested all details from her business activities since the separation date in August. She did not want me poking around her busines (even though we are filing jointly) plus I had told her we need to 1099B the OM for his barter income. Keep in mind I have the following documentation of her barter agreement:

- multiple emails from her in September describing this

- sworn testimony by OM as well as WW during PFA trial in November that they had a barter agreement.

She leaves me a voice mail the telling me to file separately because she does not want to give up any details of her business. So, I called her bluff and went ahead and filed my taxes! It makes no difference to her if I declared the kids and the mortgage - her 5K in earnings from her job coupled with her business losses means she would have gotten back all of her paid taxes anyways.

She calls this afternoon to talk about DD3 speech. Predictably, she starts going into how she has nothing now, calls me every name in the book, and spews some OUTSTANDING fog babble:

" You haven't loved me for years!"

"Just so you know, it's legal for us to get married in all 50 states!"


Since I'm recording, I keep my cool, don't call her any names, then tell her at the end of the conversation how it was very inappropriate of her to call me those names with the kids in the back seat. Of course, she denied it all.

Yeah, you haven't loved her for years.

You're also the King of Evil (move over Ganondorf!).

You also breathe fire and will be the reason OM dumps her, which I am sure she will throw at you.

"You made OM leave! We were HAPPY until you made him go!"

(She will fail to notice the correlation between the lack of money and OM's departure)

I am no accountant but I would have filed jointly using her as a dependent also and forced her to amend the taxes later still under joint. That way you also benefit from the losses. Just a thought.

What do you say when she says "You've never loved me in years"?

What she says about the second part of marriage is cruel. Tell her to please stop rubbing it in.

I told her if I didn't love her, I would have walked away without trying to salvage the marriage and abandoned the kids like OM did.

PSUBIKER you can't talk sense to a ww IN FULL FOG MODE.

Don't even try. :crosseyedcrazy:

when she does it and changes history ... just calmly say something like "you know I think a ham sandwich would be nice right now" or a 'cold coke would go down well' .... or ' the Cardinals nearly did win ya know (dream on) " because your replies off subject would make as much sense to her right now. :RollieEyes:

You need for her to hit the sub basement with a sudden stop. Disregard the possibility of recovery.... its the only way a caring mother may come out of this mess. maybe

While letting her hit the ground TAKE the kids!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I mean that for their sakes they don't deserve to live in some crap hole or worse so far away from you you'll need 2 weeks travel to get there.

right now she will lie only once .... when she speaks.

Normal WW free fall. It will be over soon for you.

Have you heard anything about the other state coming after the OM for CS?

What's up?

Sorry, I don't know how I missed this reply.

I would have left OM out of the discussion. Anything you say about him is to get your evil way up on him. Focus on the two of you. Tell her that you need her to inform you of these things to become a better husband.

Learn under this stress to be romantic.

As for news updates, not much is going on here. We have a Child Support mediation conference tommorrow.

We had filed a consent agreement back in December after we had settled custody. However, it was kicked back to us because we didn't do a couple of things:

- document how medical expenses are handled

- wage order for me

It turns out, she overstate daycare expenses by close to 200/mo which affects what I pay her on a dollar per dollar basis. I'll get that cleared up tommorrow.

Also, it gives me a chance to talk to the mediator about her underemployment and how her "business" income should come into play.

She's stil very HOT about having to go to the mediation conference - there's a very real posibility that her support order will get reduced significantly.

Today I sent her an email requesting that I would like to start packing up my stuff at the house at this weekend. She replies back that nothing will be packed until property division is complete. What she doesn't realize is the house closes before property division takes place. Reading between the lines, she doesn't have a place yet!

How do you know that you will get all you stuff after this time. Will OM be able to fit into any of your clothes.

Will you be able to store all your stuff.

What happens if she does NOT have a place to go to when the sale is done?

OM is 6'4", I'm 5'11". My clothes won't fit.

As for my stuff, I'm planning on getting a storage unit that meets my needs.

As for her, I don't know. If she doesn't have a place, I'll file for emergency custody. She's got to be able to provide at least a roof over their heads. Once she and I decidided to stop paying the mortgage in December, she should have started looking for a place.

We had the child support mediation today. It went as expected - if I really wanted to, I could have pushed hard to have a hearing to get my support amount lowered but what I'm paying I'm fine with temporarily (i.e next 6 months or so). If she gets a higher paying job, I'll start to push the issue again but there's more important business items to take care of than argue over $50 per month.

Anyway's, WW made an A@# of herself AGAIN in court. She spent an hour dropping A bombs, S bombs, F bombs to me and mediator, interupting, and overall just being borderline insane. I stood there cool, calm, and collected and presented facts.

WW accused me of paying child support late.

- I showed the mediator the copies of cancelled checks that showed I paid early

WW's response - you are a lying A#$HOLE!

WW accused me of paying daycare late.

- showed the mediator I paid early and in full.

Same response as above from WW.

WW goes into long rant about how she is destitute, can't pay her bills, etc.

My response - how come you bought two cars and fully pay all of OM's expenses while still married to someone else?

Same response as above from WW.

So far, WW still does not have a place to live. She says it's all my fault. I tell her I'm sure your mom would let you stay if you agree to her conditions. She says FU. Nice.

{{{PSU}}} You are one awesome cookie! I'd love to see a video of this.

My spitting-drink-out laugh of the day (PSU, sorry it's at your expense, you know it's nothing personal, right? *smiles and bats eyes*):

Will OM be able to fit into any of your clothes.

Awesome and masterful job at mediation.

PSUB, I'm really sorry that I haven't heard back from my friend. I've been poking for info, but she won't respond right now. She just broke up with a boyfriend and had surgery, so I am pretty sure that's had her occupied.

I keep trying to call her but she won't answer.

The next step could be for you to call the PA CS collection office and report him yourself.

Heck, I'd do it for you.

You did a fantastic job at mediation. Keep your cool like that and I'm sure you'll win custody in court. I'd take her to court for full custody when she's behaving this way. You'd win against a woman acting like that.

Pom, here's an important question, now that she broke up with her boyfriend, is she cute?

In other news, we got the inspection report back on the house from the buyers. No biggies - replace a cracked window, and repair two leaky sink drains.

HOWEVER, WW told me and the realtor that she is NOT agreeing any type of credit with the inspection report and told the realtor the buyers can sue her - she wants to take the house off the market. I immediately notified my A of this development and if she scares the buyer off or the house forcloses, she will be liable for any losses at that point. Also, she refuses to let me pack up my things. OM is probably telling her not to leave unless they force you. She and I stand to lose about 25K if she scares away the buyers.

Can she do that??? Find a way to get the OM off the property!! If you have to go there and live there until its over. Can't you kick him out of the house if you move back in?? If this may end up caosting you two 25K then start to play nasty with them!!! Legal means take too much time!!

I so agree!

There's a guy here who sold 2 acres of his family's property to the local ship channel authority. He stipulated that they had to stay off of certain acres because they had little buildings on them of sentimental value. Well, of course, the ship channel went right ahead and cleared out those acres as well. Now the guy has pitched a tent on that land and has been living there in that tent for 4 months to make sure the ship channel can't use the property.

Hi all,

Today is the day we are supposed to get back to the buyers about the inspection report. It has been a HUGELY frustrating weekend dealing with the WW.

On Saturday, we received a foreclosure notice from the bank. We sent me a text. I replied back:

"not a big deal - we are closing on the 27th anyways."

She replies back:

"not if I don't sign"

In a nutshell, she is trying to use the house sale as leverage in property division negotiations. The problem with her thinking is property division is a separate issue from the house sale and without the housesale, there is not much to divide when it comes to property division.

We've sent numbers back and forth - I'm pretty confident that if she drops the no sale, we'll come to an agreement. I don't appreciate being blackmailed.

Then, last night, she knocked at my apartment door at 9:30pm. She wanted to "negotiate". I told her this is not the time or place to do this. She was standing in the hall and I had the door open. Then, she came in and I told her to leave. She threatened to call the police. I told her:
"Ok, go ahead. I'll tell them you showed up uninvited and wouldn't leave"

She then left. 5 minutes later I got a call from DSIL and said WW was flying down the highway doing 90 and screaming uncontrollably into the phone. Right now, everything is crashing down on her and she has no idea what to do.

I talked to MIL last night - WW is not talking to her either but MIL is going to offer that WW and the kids can stay with her temporarily if WW does not have a place to go after the house closing. Of course, OM is not allowed within 3 miles of her house.

As of right now, the house won't sell. I'll keep everyone posted on new developments...

I'd be very concerned over your kids safety with a woman that is that emotionally out there.

Why didn't you file for full custody of the kids when she had her breakdown?

Seriously, file some papers. This is the kind of woman you hear stories about later. She is scary unstable and has been for a while.

I'd also contact your lawyer and have him draft something (if he can) to get an order to let you sell this house. Well, at least talk to him about it.

This woman has had more than just aliens take control of her. She's really out there.

I know in my state that you can get your lawyer to take legal action in court to force the sale of the house.

Your doing well in a bad situation. Don't cave in to WW's black mail.

Keep us posted.

Umm I know she done real crap, but I still don't see any attempts at the plan A.

Invite the Alien in. Pat her on the back. Tell her your sorry to see her go. Tell her that your up to the hilt as well.

So far you have done a very solid approach. Exposure has always been there. Can you work no life into caring for WW of any sort. The plan is to demonstrate a fabulous H before going plan B.

Do you have the life in you to do it?

OMG! I have not been able to look away from your thread since I started to read it. You poor man. Your wife is obviously certifiable. This other man is some type of Rasputin. She has lost everything because of him and her vanity. I so hope you get custody of the kids. One day she will look back and see her folly. I cannot understand your patience with her. You must love her very deeply. I can only pray that God protects you, her and your children from that monster.

Imagine,

In the situation I'm in, plan A was useless - Jen had recommended a modified plan B a couple of months ago where I just discuss the kids and business with her.

However, HUGE news tonight. I received the following email this afternoon from WW:

Negotiate if you would simply call this can be done in 10 minutes. max. How about this call me and I will most likely sign anything at this point. I have no money no where to go, not farm no apt, nothing. and no one to turn to , yes I said No one. Are you happy now?



DSIL, DMIL and Godfather and everyone is not help nor even calling me. Thanks to you and DSIL.


White flag you win- Call me and I’ll sign anything .

DSIL called me as well to say WW called her in tears and said OM left her and was blaming me and DSIL for him leaving. I told DSIL I can't let the divorce through. Those are my thoughts. I broke down in tears on the way home from where I was eating dinner.

This is very, very good news. If we can convince WW to move in with MIL, it will give her time to defog in a safe environment with fans of what is best for the two of us. Right now, I don't know what the path is before me. All I know, if OM is truly out of the picture, it is time for plan A, plan A, and some more plan A.

My love bank is not empty. Like our real finances, there's still a couple of dollars left. I still need to keep the WW love bank account open for the time being, I will never be able to look at DD3 and DS6 if I didn't remain open to reconcilliation while waiting for her to withdraw and the fog to clear.

Brad

This will be one of the greatest love stories I have ever heard if you can reconcile. To give everything for her. To be so betrayed, so violated, and yet to love her still. Amazing! I hope and pray for that.

I hope this is the beginning of the end of her fog.

Of course, she blames you, but perhaps she'll see things differently as time goes on.

Just be cautious.

I hope so too. I'm going to lay low for a day or so and see what her actions are.

Ever since I first read your thread, I've been waiting to see this post from you. I'm really hoping she can de-fog, and I'm so happy to see you still have some love left for her. She will really need it, because she is going to be demolished when she de-fogs and realizes what she has done.

Be cautious right now... but be compassionate.

All the best

I hope you and your ILs will continue to track that POS. Lets hope he thinks its to hot around there.

If I read this right she is asking you to call her to arrange a place/time for her to finally sign the sale agreement for the house. Go ahead and call her...you never know where the call will lead to!! Worse case you can always hang up.

Brad I guess its as many of us said would happen... she is hitting the basement at speed.

Now is the time to play it cool. No sudden burst of well meaning compassion to let her into YOUR current home. Now is the time to speak to Jennifer again and get a PLAN together.

She is going to go through a hard time and she has some more crashing to do yet.

She has to see the OM for what he is
she has to see what she has done

just as starters.

You may need to step up for your kids they deserve to have one stable parent around them now... your wife is not. Perhaps just an extension of the sharing deal while she goes through this period.

by the way YOU will be blamed for a whole lot even more than before.. don't be surprised.

How long she takes to go through all this is unknown but its probably going to be messy.

you are doing very well

I pray it will indeed work out in the long run.... at the very least you will know you did everything a man could have done.

AW

Hear, hear.

Remember she has not lost love for OM.

I sent her the following email this morning:

Do you want to go to the kid's last swimming lesson tommorow night at 6:45? Daddy and the kids would love to have mommy there to watch them.

PSUBIKER

Tread slow and careful.

"Negotiate if you would simply call this can be done in 10 minutes. max. How about this call me and I will most likely sign anything at this point. I have no money no where to go, not farm no apt, nothing. and no one to turn to , yes I said No one. Are you happy now?"

Instead of asking WW to meet at the pool, which did nothing.
Email her with what do you want.

"WW called her in tears and said OM left her and was blaming me"

Then ask WW why is she blaming you for the OM leaving her. It was her choice to leave you, a man willing to support her. Why did the OM dump you, you were his soul mate. What did you do to him to refuse to support you? Why does the OM refuse to hold a job? Is it the OM refuses to pay CS?

"If we can convince WW to move in with MIL, it will give her time to defog in a safe environment with fans of what is best for the two of us. Right now, I don't know what the path is before me. All I know, if OM is truly out of the picture, it is time for plan A, plan A, and some more plan A."

As long as you are not in a hurry to plan A with your wallet or home.

No SF until many things are in place o verify NC and STD tests are done.

"I will never be able to look at DD3 and DS6 if I didn't remain open to reconcilliation while waiting for her to withdraw and the fog to clear."

I for recovery, just don't let her back in without the necessary work.

Take it easy with the mommy and daddy and stuff. Your biggest issue is going to be trying to hold back on the R until she is ready. She has to grieve the OM scumbag and then compare you to him in a positive way. Her family are going to be your biggest advocates. All you have to do is keep a lid on needing her back so desperately. This will be your greatest challenge. Which is amazing to me. It does not sound like forgiveness will be the issue. When the fog lifts, and she sees all the things that she did to you, it could send her over the edge. Try to stay cool.

Worth committing to memory:

Yep, I agree.

You need to be very careful, and very meticulous here. You are going to find that Plan A and Plan B are MUCH, MUCH easier than any reconciliation attempt. If it is even possible!

Tread lightly, and maintain course and speed. She is free falling and is probably not in control right now. As she looks around, she should see the same old BH, consistent and taking care of business.

You need to let things settle in with her over the next few days to maybe even a week or two. See which way she heads once she gains a little control. Dont push her one way or another. Just maintain your current direction and watch.

Once you see which way she goes next, it will tell you what to do.

WW and I just had a phone conversation. She is agreeing to sell the house and we arrived at an agreement on an equity split on the house.

We talked a little more, I did not mention anything about OM - I'll let others get that info for me unless she wants to divulge it at this time.

She's going to try and come to the swim lesson - we have some business things we need to take care of as well.

I tried to mention to her about staying at her mother's - she is VERY angry at her mother. She feels MIL stabbed her in the back by not accepting her affair. That's normal. She also wants SIL to stay out of things as well. She didn't seem as angry at SIL. Throughout all this I let SIL and MIL take care of the AO and DJ's.

SHe gave up A LOT of information - she was trying to liquidate her retirement accounts to get cash but since the divorce was filed, there was a freeze on them. I asked her where she was going and there are a couple of places she's looking at. But, when she starting throwing around numbers, she's still going to be in a financial pickle no matter what.

One thing I did a few days ago was ask a collegue of mine to give me an estimate on keeping DS6 and DD3 ponies at their place. It was very reasonable price. I told WW this during our conversation and she wants me to have the guy call her - I can tell she liked that I did that. I told her I did it so she could have some options.

I'm going to call MIL and SIL today and ask that they just be compasionate with her. No sense on beating her up today.

This is good news. But again, this is going to take time. Do not be in too much of a hurry to make things easy for her. She KNOWS where you are, and she KNOWS that you love her.

She is going to have to face the consequences of what she has done. I know it will be hard to watch...but you really have no choice.

Let this ride out. Dont offer up too much. Just be there and take care of those kids. It is the steady, FIRM hand that will attract her back.

What has happened to OM? Is he nearby?

I couldn't agree more with what everybody is saying to you. It is incredibly important that you take your time and let the free-fall continue to the end. There will be a few 'bounces'. She is going to be angry, blame you for things, stuff that is completely unreasonable but she is still in the fog and will be for a while yet.

Ok....listen up closely to this one piece of advice. DO NOT BECOME A DOORMAT at this point. I can already sense a neediness or clinginess coming out from your posts. I'm afraid that she will not respect you at all long term if you do not force her to address her own personal issues and ask for your forgiveness.

You can ignore my post if you like but if you become a doormat at this point in the process I believe your chances of recovery are zero.

Mindshare

You're seeing a glimmer of hope, and it is probably sending adrenaline charging through your system right now, but you really need to pay attention to what everyone is telling you:

Go slow. Proceed with caution. Be cool.

Go back and read all the posts to you over the past day or so. Try and let them sink in.

Ignore this post. I read your reply properly!

Yanno, the posts you are reading are coming from experience. Please heed them. You're at a GREAT place strategically.

Thanks for the 2 x 4's. :twobyfour: I'm still going to proceed with the previous plan and watch her actions. When she was telling me what her plans were to move, she is going to burn through her cash from the house sale in no time and will be in a bad situation. I just need to sit back and watch from afar.

Thanks guys!

Once the POSOM here's that you wife is going to have money, he will be back at her door. How do you plan on keeping him away?

If her plan goes as she hopes, she won't have much money left come April. You figure 3.5K for a security deposit on a place, 1.5K for her bankruptcy filing, plus she has to figure out how to move her barns and that will be at least a couple hundred, a storage unit etc, etc, etc. Plus, she wants our tractor. With a 5K loan payoff on it plus my share of the equity, there's another 7-8K as well. That's pretty much all the cash she will have once the house sells.

Speaking of money, she had 10K in a CD held in a joint account. I never touched this. MIL and I talked back in August about depositing it into her Roth IRA so OM won't get it but we never did it. So, about a month ago, the bank that it was held in SIEZED it to pay off her credit card she wasn't paying on. Of course, that was my fault when we talked this morning. She said she was afraid I would take it. I told her if I was going to take it, why didn't I?

With the tractor and the house, I figure to have about 15K in my pocket which will = about 5 months of rent, CS, and car payments for me in case of an emergency. I learned my lesson on credit. I like using cash. I still use my debit card but I use it so I can download my expenses easily into Microsoft Money.

But she will have an apartment. Were you ever able to get an RO against him being around your kids?

What? Please explain. How does that work?

I'm able to download my bank transactions directly into Microsoft Money. So, instead of keeping track of receipts, remembering to balance my statements, and generally keeping taking a lot time to enter stuff, I can just synchronize Money with my bank and easily categorize expenses.

I just started using Quicken; wonder if it will work with that, too? Thanks for the info!

Please be very careful. Depending on how things work out, I promise you, that in the end, the financial pieces will mean nothing.

I'm happy you have enough left in the tank to attempt R.

Just don't jump in!!!!!

What's with keeping the tractor?

Anything new? How are you doing?

All's quiet on the WW front so far today. No communication so far between the two of us. It's pretty rare that I contact her anyways - she always calls me. I'm just sitting tight and doing my thing.

One thing I noticed over the last 3-4 days is I'm having trouble sleeping. I thought I got through that around October. It's probably due to the stress of having to move my stuff this weekend. We'll see how I sleep after the move is complete. Just a lot to do between now and the 27th.

What are you doing to take care of yourself? Are you getting enough exercise?

You're probably losing sleep because after months of crap from WW you see a glimmer of a possibility of R since POSOM is out of the scene.

I've been repeating the mantra of believe nothing what you hear and half of what I see. In that vein, I'm going by the assumption that OM is not quite out of the picture yet. Either way, reality is starting to creep in with the two of them and it sounds like OM is getting tired of WW's quirks.

On Wednesday, WW was pretty bummed she missed the swimming lesson and we had good conversation over moving logistics. Yesterday, she called to see if I could take the kids this weekend so she can pack up her stuff and move. I said no - I rented a truck and storage unit so I can move my stuff this weekend too.

She then went into a looooooonnnnnnng rant on how she has no place to go, has all this work to do, how I am not helping her with anything, wah, wah, wah. What she wants to do is pack up all my stuff and I can pick them up off the driveway.

I told her I will be packing my stuff up thank you. My plan is to go to the house at around 3pm tommorroww with my sister and brother in law. I'll need to check with the police to see if I can get an escort. As of right now, I am assuming OM is still there and no way do I trust WW not to make up some crazy story.

Once my stuff is out of the house, I think things will be much better. There won't be anything left for WW to argue about in terms of property. If it's true that OM is out of the picture, she can de fog on her own. I'll continue to follow Jen's plan of treating her like we are divorced.

Did you experience any of her quirks?


THIS is thanks to the work of her and OM. Their problem.


Will the police supply an escort? Is OM violent?


Good luck!

If you bring the police escort remind them of the warrant for OM in PA.

Whenever she gripes at you about how much you suck and things are hard for her I think you should say, "You chose this path for yourself. These are the consequences."

She may not hear it right now, but it's a seed that I'm sure will germinate in time.

It's the same exact thought I have now if I hear about exww complaining about how hard things are for her, etc.

I know you can't educate a WW, but I don't think there's anything wrong with reminding them of their stupidity.

I don't understand why they expect things to be different than they are. Divorce is no picnic and the good ones where the exes are friends really only exist in Hollywood.

Make sure the OM doesn't walk off with some of your stuff!! I.E. tools etc!!

ARGHHHHHHHHH!

How do you hold your tonge? "I have no place to go".

"You had a place, You had your horses, you had kids and a husband who love you. You had everything you wanted. Then you let a stranger into your bed who filled your head with lies and deceit. And you listened to him as he poisoned our marriage. You sat and listened to him on how you could cheat me and make me pay for the ranch. All the time he was using you, every decision and bit of advice he gave you snowballed into worse decisions and worse advice, Which ultimately destroyed YOUR dream (not mine) of having a horse ranch. And along with that, my dream of spending the rest of my life loving you. Now that you have nothing the POSOM will leave you. The funny thing is, that even though your adultery has cost us everything, you still have my love. The very thing you valued least of all, Is all you have left.

I second this. This was the only thing that knocked WstbxH out of near violent rants at the time he was moving out. "This is your choice!" I would tell him and he would at least shut up.

PSUbiker

How did today go? Did you get your stuff?

OMG what a day...

Turns out OM did not dump WW since there are still a few dollars left for him to suck WW dry..

I met WW's best friend and husband at the house at 10am. The kids were THRILLED to see me. WW started to make smart comments about DD3 speech therapist. We started packing and everything went great. A couple hours later, WW, OM, and the kids went to look at a place for WW leaving me wih best friend and husband to pack up more of my stuff (mostly tools). Twenty minutes after she left, WW calls best friend and tells her to have me stop packing up the tools. Best friend tells WW that I need to pack up my stuff and she can't have everything. Divorce does not work that way. WW hangs up on best friend. WW calls me, we argue over which week wacker I'm taking (we have several). While I'm on the phone with WW, OM calls best friend and tells her under no circumstances am I to take his tools. BF tells OM to butt out and this is none of his business. She also tells him that the tools are mine. WW calls Best Friend and Best Friend tells WW that she's keeping track of what I take. WW tells Best Friend that she doesn't trust her and is trying to screw her.

Best Friend and husband are very, very angry at this point - they are just trying to help and WW is treating them like dirt too. WW calls the police on us but we leave before they get to the house. Meanwhile, the kids are in the back seat of WW's car while she is going balistic at us as well as threatening to call the cops.

Later on this evening, I get a call from a client of ours. For the last several months, he's been interested in the property but hasn't put his money where his mouth is so to speak. It would have been a for sale by owner transaction. Anyways, he calls - WW finally gave him my number. He asks what's going on because he can't get a straight answer from WW. I tell him we're closing next Friday. Turns out, he had just gotten a mortgage approval for our place! He wanted to close next week! WW kept telling him NOT to call be because I was unstable!!!! We would have netted a lot more on this sale than with the one with the realtor!

Client also tells me that WW still had not given him the paperwork for a horse we sold his daughter a few months ago. Now, his daughter can't enter the shows she wants because she doesn't have the papers! Client goes on to tell me that she's acting like she was abducted by aliens!

For today's coup de grace, WW is seriously considering signing a lease for a place 60 miles from the kid's schools in a different state. (90 miles from me) This would only happen over my dead body. She can move there but not the kids. Because of this development, my first step on Monday is to talk to A and find out how we can stop the move...

Let Pom be an example to you whose OM is doing well right now.

Do not not not not not let her move if at all possible. Get an A, do something, do ANYTHING LEGAL that will aid you in getting the kids.


I don't see how your WW looks in the mirror anymore. I mean, really. Some WWs are bad, yours is....a 9 on the bad scale.

Which tools are yours? The ones that are rusty and bad and out of date and all that other good stuff?

The ones that don't work and that OM can't sell for scrap?

All I can say is...wow.

Listen, I'm a writer. Can I have the contract to make the film script? (totally serious here)

his tools...

Yeah, they're my tools, because this is my property and my woman. Until the money dries up. Then you can have the remains.

I swear. WW is going to be in for such a SHOCK...

WOW

sort of leaves one speechless doesn't it.

Might be time to take the gloves off if they intend to move so far away taking the kids.

Go for full custody or primary custody perhaps?

I think your plan to see the Att first thing Monday is essential.

Real life is far too unbelievable for casual observers.

You will be able to get an injunction against her leaving the state with the kids (its some latin term). Its called parental kidnapping if she takes them against a court order. If the OM goes back to that state, is it he state he can busted in for child support? or is it a different state.

PSUbiker

Get a lawyer first thing Monday morning to block WW from moving and changing the kids schools. Especially her bringing them to another state. Let WW move by herself to any where she wants, but not the kids.

PSUB,

It would never hurt to call the cops and let them know you found someone who is wanted in another state for CS payments.

The word is supposedly out, so maybe they can arrest POSOM.

I don't know why the wheels turn so slowly on this issue.

You should get custody of those kids. It was my ex's threat to move which started our case and you have a STRONG case against the stability of this woman when her own family has turned against her and you have witnesses to her nastyness.

I just finished unpacking most of my boxes in my apartment and I'm "ruminating" on my next course of action which is most likely a full scale custody battle. The big advantage I have is the current 50/50 shared arrangement. With WW planning to move 90 minutes away, this arrangement is key in my battle.

- the 50/50 thing won't work with WW 90 minutes away. SHE was the one who is deciding to move to an area where it won't work. I live across the street from where I work - no way am I going anywhere.

- DD3 is getting along great with her speech instructer who is up by me. She is making progress every week. WW didn't do squat for her speech. Once we entered into the 50/50 rotation, my
first course of action was to get DD3 properly evaluated and into a program. Plus, if I get the kids, I can get DD3 into an even more intensive program.

- most of our family and friends support is 25-30 minutes NORTH of me (about 2 hours from WW new place) Family support is great in a pinch.

- WW's mental instability

- OM's crimminal history and back child support.

My thinking is once she decided to move far away, her advantage evaporated since SHE is the one willing to move and possibly mess up the custody arrangement.

My first course of business is to call my A and see what my options are to keep her from enrolling the kids in a school out of state. It will be interesting to see what his take is.

B

Can you GPS her car so you can see if she takes them out of state? If she does rent a place and even takes the children out of state for the day and she live their, it could be looked at as parental kidnapping, if you don't know. this could smoke her chance for joint custody. I am sure you're lawyer is going to be on this like white on rice.

That's not parental kidnapping. If she interfered with his scheduled visits and he has no clue where she is or the kids are on his arrangement and all signs point to her being gone THEN that's something to look at.

Otherwise we wouldn't be allowed to take our kids anywhere during our time with them, wayward or not.

Still, PSUB, call the DE child support office and let them know about POSOM.

I know my friend followed her channels, but I'm a little baffled about why it's taking so long.

I'd also give a call to POSOM's ex. I bet you she would very much like to know where he is and can help you take action herself.

You have the public records with her name, so it wouldn't be tough for you to track her down.

The wheels of justice move slowly in DE. With her moving away, the burden of proof falls on her to prove that changing the status quo is best. SIL said MIL is getting ready to call POSOM's ex and POSOM's mother.

WW gave some details about her "plan" on where she's living. THe place is 65 miles south of where the kids are going to school now and in a different state. It's also 50 miles from where she works.

Her plan is to drive the kids to the school where they are currently at on days that she has them so they don't have to move schools and we can maintain the current custody arrangement. The problem is it is 90 minutes each way!!

I was digging through some old emails and came upon an old email from WW's A to my A stating her grave concerns about me driving the kids 35 minutes to school each day. I guees it is a grave concern if it affects me.

I think she is setting up a formal move to a school close to her. Once they are living out there she can go to the judge and say that they need to go to a closer school.

What is so important that she need to live that far out??? If you want to end her affair you need to not be helping her live that far away. YUou need a custody decision real soon, before she settles in over there!! I bet this is about the OM!!

Her actions show self centered behavior and not ideas that are focused on the kids.

Subjecting them to those heinous drives is not in their best interests and you have her email to use against her expressing her concern over 35 minute drives.

That's a heck of a lot of driving to subject the kids to.

Mine complain over 40 minutes, even with a movie to watch en route!

So keep her email to use against her in court.

I really, really, really believe you have excellent chances to get full physical custody of the kids if you go to court.

Don't compromise on this move and file something against it. Get it on record somehow that you don't approve of this move.

My lawyer educated me about something which I'll share with you offline.

She's at a huge disadvantage - there is no logic what so ever for her to move that far away. Her only reason is a place for her horses plus it gets her further away from friends and family. This is exactly the OM's mode of operation.

What does your A say about the situation ?

What has your lawyer said about WW's move?

Just as a warning - in my sitch, the OW and OWH started out with roughly 50-50 custody arrangement of their DD-then-6. Without telling anyone, OW and WstbxH bought a house in another city - roughly 30 minutes away. OWH wouldn't have known at all until moving day except that OW tried to have DD pulled out of school so she could transfer her to the new school. As soon as OWH found out, he lawyered up and got an emergency hearing in court. Unfortunately, as fast as he could get a court date, it was 3 days after OW had moved. The just basically just tsk-tsked OW - said she shouldn't have done that but - oh well, it's done now so too bad so sad for OWH. He'll just have to be a weekend dad from now on. If he'd been to court BEFORE the move, things would have been different.

And it's not that he didn't have a lot going in his favour. He had:

-50/50 status quo
-his work schedule was such that he picked up DD from school every day. OW would pick her up from his house when she finished work
-OW still works in the same city as OWH, where they lived and where DD was going to school before the move
-OW had no after school care in the new city. She claimed her work hours were flexible enough to accomodate this but reality has proven that they are not
-OWH has family within walking distance who have, in the past, looked after DD on sick days, PA days and summer holidays when she had no school but both parents had to work. OW's family cut her off.
-Children's Aid had already been to investigate OW and WstbxH because DD was complaining that Wstbxh walked around their apartment naked

Sorry to go on so long, but I just want to warn you that it may not make a bit of difference how strong your case is for custody. Unless you can get court action to PREVENT her from moving, you may not be able to bring her back and they will take the new arrangement as "status quo" even if it has only been in existance for a few days.

And just because it can get worse, the OWH almost never sees his DD anymore. OW tells him he can have her on a weekend, he drives all the way out there to pick her up and then she says no. He can no longer pick her up after school because though he gets off earlier than OW, there is the 30 minute drive to consider and he just can't make it. OW is trying to punish him for this by saying he can ONLY see her during the week after school if he picks her up and not on weekends. It's an ugly mess.

Tabby,

That situation sucks. The only real option he has is to move. 30 minute commute to work isn't bad.

He could always move, file for a modification to get 50/50 back, and put in language which restricts moving or requires notification for the move.

PSUB,

The reasons you hear are the reasons why it is absolutely critical that you act now and file something now opposing this move and requesting an emergency hearing. They will ding you for it after the fact.

Hi all,

We are filing a Petition - Rule to Show Cause. What this does is gets us in front of the judge quickly because she is in contempt of the custody agreement. At that point, the burden of proof falls on to her to explain why she is contempt of the current agreement. We shall see where this goes...

Yes it sucks and sure he could move, though it wouldn't solve OW's after-school problem because he would still finish work at 3:00 and have to teleport the 30-minute distance to pick her up from school. It's not like he could get a new job in this economy. In any case, I just wanted to illustrate how critical it is to act quickly and have the order signed, sealed and delivered BEFORE any move is made.

PSUB, I hope you can get your emergency hearing in time to stop your WW from doing anything.

One small update - I sent WW an email about property division to her work email. A couple of hours later I got a response from her sales manager that this is no longer her mail box. I was smart - I put a read receipt on it and the receipt came at the same time I received the response. I'm pretty sure WW lost her job today.

Luckily I have the kids for the next five days. The bottom is coming up real quick for her now.

Her noose is slowly tightening. Good move getting the lawyer to prevent her moving the kids away.

Tabby,

I feel his pain. WW is only 30 minutes from me.

I work down at the Pentagon.

What can he do? He could hire a part time daycare that is serviced by that school. He would pay a part time fee for her to go there twice a week (on his days).

She could catch a bus that goes to that daycare and he can drive the 30 minutes to pick her up, and then bring her to his place.

The next day, he drives out, drops her at the center, and returns for work.

It sucks, yes. But his DD gets to see him.

His ex can't complain about it if he makes arrangements to accomodate the schedule and he can resume the status quo.

She'd have no case against him and he has every right to do this.

I drive about 3 and a half hours a day to commute. It's doable.

Another alternative is to hire someone to simply drive her on his days.

It can be done.

Sorry for the threadjack.

Just want to see a father get his 50/50 back and have an entitled ex's dirty tricks stamped out.

Run it by your friend.

Part time daycare might be a little costly, but he could always petition to have child support adjusted to accomodate the expense.

There's ALWAYS options and nothing is EVER totally settled with family law. They'd likely throw him that bone.

Once he's done filing for the change, he could also petition the court that any future move will which change things needs to have a notification.

Thanks Pom. What is currently happening is that because OW keeps renegging on him regarding weekend visits, she is starting to look bad. It's also starting to affect her and WstbxH at their work - who were notified of the A back in the beginning and chose not to "interfere in their employee's personal lives". So they are getting pressure from all sides and as you say here:

This is starting to scare them regarding going back to court. It is likely they will settle out of court, but it won't be the 50/50 that he started with. He made critical mistakes early on that really cannot be recovered from (he allowed OW to move out and take DD with her, and the trusted her to behave like a responsible parent etc.).

I think the reason dads don't do as well in custody cases is because of these early actions. I know several dads with 50/50 or better and in all cases except one, they acted immediately. And by acted, I mean they stayed with the kids regardless of the circumstances and refused to leave until a settlement was reached. Men are too quick to move out and it's the biggest mistake they can make. (the exception was a fairly complicated situation with an absolute psycho WW - not unlike PSUB's WW)

PSUB has played his cards well as his WW has melted down. I mostly wanted to caution him not to wait until WW moved, but to take preventative action immediately.

Tabby,

Thanks for the update and the heads up - it is very educational for all involved. It is confirmed - WW did lose her job but of course it's my fault!

Anyways, this job loss has pretty much taken WW's flimsy plan and blew it to pieces. I don't know how she can swing the shared custody. I have another call into my A today to see his opinion on whether her losing her job can get us emergency custody. Also, I'm going to bounce the idea off his head about calling the local school district and telling them not to enroll DS6 without my written consent because of the shared custody arrangement. Hopefully then WW can't switch the kids to schools down where she is at without my consent.

He could argue for a reversal of custody due to alienation, which is hopefully established.

You're right about father's not doing well because of early mistakes.

How old is his DD?

She could have a say on things.

Even a move that puts him halfway would help.

I like the daycare idea. Many schools offer on site care.

30 minutes is nothing. Really, it isn't. DD would deal with the 30 minute drive just 4 times a week (going there and coming back to dad's).

Taking his weekends is wrong as well. How is she doing it?

Perhaps we should start a different thread about this, but this is all good info for PSUB as well since it's the reality of what we face as men in the court system.

OR, he could also argue that since she moved away she is responsible for bringing DD to him at a halfway point and put in a motion for the court to grant this along with an adjustment to CS to account for the extra driving he has to do (he needs to save his receipts for this). It's common sense, but the court will need proof to act on it.

Forcing the WW to drive to a halfway point would certainly put an extra demand for time on her.

No point turning this t/j into a thread - OWH isn't even on here. I really just wanted to use his situation as an example of how important it is to be making the first move. BTW, he DID go to his DD's school before the move to let them know the situation and make sure they consulted him if she tried to do anything. That was the only reason he was even notified about the move. When OW tried to transfer DD to the new school, they wouldn't release her without OWH's signature. Basically, OW was trying to sneak out of town without telling him at all.

And yes, he's gradually building a very good case against her, but if you'll notice the difference - it's like he's swimming against the tide, collecting evidence against her all the while DD is living in this situation. The onus is on him to provide the proof. In PSUB's case, he's starting out with a decent custody arrangement, and if he's successful at getting even interim full custody or an emergency hearing - all he has to do is wait while his WW melts down. His chances of success are far better.

PSUB,

Did you contact POSOM's ex wife and let her know the whereabouts of POSOM?

How is her losing her job your fault?

Why would this change her plans? She could still try to move.

How is it that if someone engages in self sabotage it's someone else's fault? :RollieEyes:

Does she have no sense of karma? No idea about reaping what you so? Everything she tries to grasp turns to absolute sand through her fingers. Can some one be so oblivious to signs that the direction she is going is wrong? I think there are people praying for you and her. And they've asked God to not give her a moments rest while she is doing this. Can you think of one thing that has worked to her benefit in this whole situation?

MIL is in the process of contacting POSOM's ex as well as POSOM's mother.

I'm a BS - everything is always the BS fault according to a wayward! I did point out that she missed one day of work for filing a false PFA, a second day for hearing on false PFA, and a third day to go to POSOM's trial. She also missed a half day for the custody filing, and a half day for the child support mediation.

Her plan was to drop the kids off to school and then go to work with the monster commute. Her idea was she was still keeping in line with the custody agreement. Now that she is umemployed, I have no idea on how she plans on tackling the commuting issue. Every decision she makes is worse and worse. It just makes no sense.

In other news, I signed my portion for the house closing. Not sure when WW is signing her portion. At this point, it would not surprise me one bit if she refused to sign.

She successfully cockhold'd me out of the house sho she can have SF with POSOM. I guess that worked out alright for her.

OM does appear to be a Svengali that bids his every wish fulfilled.

At some point he has to pull weight. When the bough breaks lets hope that your lady will rock in the right direction.