5 Days after - Marriage Builders® Forums

Marriage Builders

She told me on saturday, 5 long days ago. an affair that happened 2 years ago, 9 days before our ten year anniversary 12 days before a honeymoon cruise (since we never had a honeymoon)I laugh, I cry , I stare into space all in an obscenely short amount of time only to repeat this over and over. I do not eat, it holds no flavor, I drink but my thirst never goes away. At work im an empty shell of who I was, I was a laughing genial 32 year old a little over weight and turning a little gray up top, I miss my old self but know that no matter what something has changed and will never be the same again. I used to have all the answers and could figure an answer to any problem that came my way , now I seem a 21 year old who knows nothing of the world and have been struck dumb by the sheer scope of the world I foolishly thought I could conquer IN but a few years. The pain is intense but at that the pain is the only thing that I know is real anymore. How can you believe anyone when they im sorry this happened , but i love you?

cliff... welcome to Marriage Builders. We are all sorry that you find yourself here, but you will find there is no better place to be. You will find tons of sage advice and plenty of solace to go along with it.

First and foremost, explore the MarriageBuilder's web site and read, read, read. Go out today, and purchase a copy of Surviving an Affair, by Willard Harley. This is a pro-marriage website, and you will find more support here than you can believe.

It is most important that you learn of Plan A and Plan B, that you understand the FOG a wayward spouse live in, and how withdrawal will affect your WS (wayward spouse) for some time. In addition you need to understand what LoveBuster's (LB) are, and how they may stifle your efforts to get though this.

Now that you have the information, it is YOUR decision as to what you want to do with it. If you read through the posts here, you will find that many want to rebuild their marriages, and some have success, and some don't. Much of that is up to YOU, and YOUR committment to following the principles on this site.

Your life will never be the same. You have reached a point where all you knew and believed in is gone. You now have the opportunity to begin anew, first with yourself, as you will learn in Plan A, and how to deal with the two emotional roller coasters now present in your life. You and WS.

If you want to save your marriage, you have come to the right place.

Good luck!!

Hi Cliff, sorry you are here and at the same time, welcome! You have come to the right place.

I have only been here for a little over two months and I am struggling big time in my marriage but I can tell you for sure that you will find plenty of people here that have great advice for you and more important of all understand exactly how you feel.

"I am sorry this happened, but I LOVE you"!...those were the exact words that came out of my husband's mouth...and just like you the first question that came out of my mouth was "How can you say you love me and have done something like this?"...I have learned through lots of reading and experiences of other people on this site that as hard to believe as it is for us, they do love us and when they get involved in the affair it is NOT about us, it is about them...

If you are both willing to work this out your marriage has hope. Talk to your wife, listen to what she has to say and be patient.

As my mom has told me a thousand times...eventhought now you think everything is falling appart only time will tell where you will end up...

My prayers are with you...best of luck. Hang in there and take care of yourself.

Cliff,

Please do some reading here, I think it will help. What you are feeling and going through seems to be pretty normal.

I have a few questions for you.

1. Why did she decide to tell you?

2. Why did she say she had the affair?

3. How long did the affair last?

4. Does she have any contact with this guy now, via work or some other commitment?

5. Is she remorsefull?

6. Do you understand she has done you a huge favor by telling you? I know you don't feel that now, but trust me and others on this, she has.

Yes, it does seem that wayward spouses (WS) post here a lot and state the love their betrayed spouse (BS) AND they had the affair. Often they post that while the affair was going on they did love them, but now that it is over they see what they stood to lose. I would NOT be surprised that your W loves you, more now than ever. She has looked over the abyss and you ARE her first choice.

I don't mean to imply that you don't hurt. You will for a long time, but realize that there are very positive signs in your W's behavior. Don't make any major decisions for 6 months or more and do your homework here. I think you will see that while you have indeed lost irreplacable things in your marriage, you can find things that were never their before. It is subtle and it takes awhile to see these new things, but give it a go and see what you find.

Keep posting, keep reading, and keep your head up. It will get better.

God Bless,

JL

Thank you for your replies, I will definetly go out and get that book. since my last post she came to me and we talked for hours.... it was a hard talk of the A and the OM (is that right?) but at the end alot of heart felt tears were shed by both of us and today seems a little brighter than the day before.....

As to why she had the A she had felt that I was wrapped in my work at the time (going for promotion) so she started at first just a friendly talking relationship which culminated in a one night at a local motel. the OM doesnt work with her and she says there has been no contact after that one night. trouble is how does one trust what is said after all trust has been lost? I want to believe, the look in her eyes when she says I want you forever is something i havent seen in awhile.... we have many things to still talk about but I pray our new start will build a stronger marriage... A long way to go but worth it in the long run..... thank you for the replies I hope to post back with more positive results ...

cliff....

Glad to hear you are not at a meltdown point. You need to realize that these feeling will not go away instantly, and there will be one primary factor necessary for healing... TIME.

These thoughts you are having are natural and normal, so don't think of them otherwise. Trust is a very difficult commodity to restore. I am going through that very process right now.

You have positive things going for you right now, so capitalize on those positives. Apologies and remorse from the WW are great signs, and there are many BS's here that would love to see those signs flow from the WS. Sometimes it doesn't seem to work that way.

The other book you should read is His Needs/Her Needs when you finish Surviving an Affair. Between these books you will have a roadmap to recovery.

Glad you seem to be making progress!!!

Good luck!

Tell the OM's wife, if he has one. Your wife will resist this idea, but this is one thing you should do anyway. You would want to know in her position, wouldn't you? Beyond that: <blockquote>quote:<hr /> You can recover. Many people have. It isn't easy, and not everyone succeeds, but as long as you are both working on it, your chances are close to 100%. If your spouse is NOT willing to work on your marriage, is denying involvement in an affair despite the evidence, and/or is continuing an affair, read What Are Plan A and Plan B? after reading the "Basic Concepts" links below. In that case, you need to start Plan A with the help of a marriage counselor (see item #2, below). There are a couple terrific posts about Plan A that are worth reading at: Plan A, Doormats and Love Busters by Zorweb and Cerri on Plan A, which will help you avoid some of the common pitfalls. Your situation is harder, but your chances of saving your marriage and actually making it better than before are still good. But, whether your spouse is "on board" or not, you should do three things:

1.) Learn. The most important and helpful single source of information for my wife and I was “Surviving an Affair” by Willard Harley (hereinafter referred to as “SAA”) available at the Bookstore, Amazon.com, and bookstores all over. SAA is THE best book on the market for helping one get to the root of “the message of the affair” (BUT YOU HAVE TO DO THE QUESTIONAIRES!). It (along with the Basic Concepts section of this site) is also helpful for giving you a vision of what a great marriage should look like. The approach of SAA to this problem is that the best defense against affairs is to have a great marriage. My wife said we had a good marriage, but she still had an affair. She was kidding herself, but it was not until we read SAA and saw what a great marriage should look like that we could clearly identify the problem areas and had the tools necessary to fix them. So that you can get started right away, while waiting for SAA to arrive in the mail, read everything in the Basic Concepts section of this site. Next, read all the Q&A's on infidelity on this site. They are found at How to Survive Infidelity

The phrase “the message of the affair” is from the book “Torn Asunder”, by Carder (hereinafter referred to as “TA”). I personally think this is the best book on affair recovery we have read. In particular it deals with the two different paths the recovery of the betrayed spouse (BS) and the wayward spouse (WS) need to take, and deals w/ remorse in a way that I prefer to SAA. Read it together, if your spouse is willing. If not, go through it yourself. If you or your spouse has issues with control, you might also want to read “The State of Affairs”, (SOA) by Todd Mulliken, which also treats the remorse issue similarly to TA. SOA also deals with "the vision thing" for marriage, which is neglected in SAA.

2.) See a marriage counselor. This is hard. You need help. These boards are populated by amateurs. MC’s are professionals. There is a difference. They can help deal with issues the books don’t cover, and customize things to your individual situation. That said, there are lots of bad MC’s in the world. Read, and take to heart, How To Find A Good Marriage Counselor. You do not want an MC that is going to teach you how to live with an awful spouse, or how to adjust to divorce. Too many of them do, as is documented here: Hazardous Counseling. Reading that link may scare you off counseling, but it should give you some good ideas to ask a potential MC before you start w/ them, so you can avoid those that give you the wrong answers. You need one that is committed to helping couples have great marriages, and knows how to do that.

You are on an emotional rollercoaster right now, and there will be times that you will think it would be best to just divorce your spouse and go on with your life. Though there are no guarantees, recovery IS possible, but it takes time and effort. You will hate yourself if you don't do everything you can to make that happen. Give yourself the time you need.

3.) I understand that you may not be a person of faith, but for me, getting my spiritual life in order was crucial. As I said, this is hard. I knew I would need all the help I could get. Repenting of the habitual sins in my life let me stop pushing God away so I could hold on for dear life. I had to humble myself and ask Him what I had done wrong, and what I could do to be the husband He wanted me to be for his child, my wife. This was not about blaming myself. It was about doing what I could to do my part in having a great marriage. My wife could participate or not, but I had to know I had done everything I could do. It also helped me to let go of thinking about what SHE needed to do, since I couldn't control her, anyway.

You might also want to read through: WAT's Quick Start Guidelines for Betrayed Spouses, but keep in mind that these are the writings of amateurs. Get the books, read the articles, and see a GOOD counselor - you need the best help you can get.

Of course, that is just my opinions and what worked for me, who experienced it once, first hand. Harley, who has helped HUNDREDS of couples through this process, lays out his program in the following link: How to Survive Infidelity You will find that I mostly followed his plan. It works. <hr /></blockquote>

She wont tell me the who of it, saying only that "I dont know him and never will"

Instead I got the story of the night which is not what i wanted to hear at all cause It doesnt help the mind out when all you see is your wife undressing for another man in a hotel room. The tale of that night is that after work she went to the hotel and waited for him(after buying a bottle of tequila and coke) , then hours later he finally showed up (she drank , so she said to get her courage up to actually go thru and sleep with him) did what he wanted too and then left, she said she cried all night after that and wanted to call me to come pick her up (which i would have) but she was so ashamed .......... seems like a movie from the Lifetime network.
I did ask last night that one day she would tell me about how they met and what his name is, at least that way i hope i can stop thinking about a guy whom ive never met and now pretty much would love to rip him limb from limb for treating my wife like a piece of garbage (and that is the weirdest thought of all. I dont feel that way because he slept with her but because he didnt even have enough respect to stay with her), to him all she was , was a notch on a bed post at least it seems that way.

she wrote me a letter in a valentins card:
"All i want to do is spend the rest of my life with you. I know I cannot erase pain that you may feel, but I can give you all the love I have in my heart. I am eternally yours. I cannot put into words the remorse I feel for how I hurt you. All I know is that when you hurt- I hurt.Sweetheart I cannot stress how sorry I am, but maybe I can stress how much I do love you.So everyday for the rest of our lives I vow to make you the happiest man on earth."

I got that card on Fri. the 13th and i actually slept with it right beside me.

Its is hard and I do think alot of negative things sometimes but when I do I read that letter and somehow it beats back the thoughts and for a moment or too I feel calm again.......

Cliff,

Why did she tell you about this, IF she isn't going to tell you about it? What is her reasoning here?

Second, she still has NOT faced what she has done <blockquote>quote:<hr />I know I cannot erase pain that you may feel, but I can give you all the love I have in my heart. <hr /></blockquote>"May feel"??? I think she needs to understand just giving you love in her heart is NOT all you need. You need to receive from her the care and love in her mind, and that means she needs to put your mind to rest by answering your questions.

Again, why did she decide to tell you this?

God Bless,

JL

I actually put it together that she may have slept with soem one else days after it happened 6-19-01 was the date funny how a date will stay with you. I confronted her with it and she denied it.

we separated for a while after this and still she wouldnt tell the truth.

we got back together after 3 months and have gradually come together as a family again , but from time to time that day did haunt me and I would get depressed. so on Saturday 9 days ago she came from work and i was just sitting on the bed dwelling on it. she asked "what was wrong" and I answered "that from time to time that summer comes to mind, and I will always wonder about it" she sat up looked me in the eyes and said "cliff, I had an affair. im sorry and i love but i did it and it was the biggest mistake in my life. I realized after that day how much i love you and i wanna spend the rest of my life with you . you are a good husband and a good father." she said it had been weighing on her mind and she could feel it like a wall between us keeping me from trusting her . so thats why she told me ....

now im stuck with a phrase "ignorance is bliss" running thru my mind.

she says telling me who it was and how they met wouldnt change the fact that it did happen. I know complete honesty is what is needed but i did get her to agree that someday she will tell me even if its not today or tommorrow I will know at some point.

I gave her a massage last night and a bath, its something I havent done for her in a while , then she gave me a massage. I have never in ten years of marriage felt closer to her and have commited myself to always talking with her every day no matter how busy it is no matter how tired i am . and i go every where with her and she loves it, loves us being together. we had a couple over that is soon to be married ,for valentines day. my wife and i sat in a loveseat in each others lap while they (the other couple) sat on a couch on opposite ends I reflect that if someone came into the room they would guess us as the ones about to be married and not the others. I guess inalot of ways this is a beginning of our new "Marriage"
I look back to a couple of weeks ago and i tell you this , today i hurt and tommorrow I will hurt but it will be less, for all the pain i would not go back to always wondering about my wife and not trusting her, for now we are a couple again with lots to talk about to be sure but acouple nonethe less with a lifetime ahead of us

i found "his needs /her needs for parents"
Is this book any different from the original "his needs/her needs"? I also ordered the "survivng an affair"

thanks to everyone for their help

increasingly I am becoming more and more angry at the OM ,I get very quiet and I dont like feeling like this, I know i should just be angry with her and i was but he had to have known she was married, in fact I surmise that he also was married due to the clandestine manner of their meeting.(she went to a hotel and waited for hours for him, if only I had called her cell phone that night maybe this would have never happened) Is this normal to feel like this about someone you dont even know? and please can soem one tell me some good ways to rid myself of these feelings?

cliff....

You are going to have so many thoughts jumping into your head out of now where for weeks to come. The important part is what you do with those thoughts.

Some will make you madder than a wet hornet. Some will make you feel like there's something you could have done. Some will make you feel sad, some depressed, some empty.... and on and on.

Your emotions will run a roller coaster, the likes of which I doubt you've ever been on before.

The key to getting through all of this is what you do with those emotions. Turn the anger into energy to do Plan A, focus on Marriage Builder's philosophy, get into counseling and learn how to make yourself a better person for the marriage. Learn how to forgive and learn how to deal with all the emotions your W will be going through as well.

Make sure all your conversations with your W are "safe", no lovebusters, no disrespectful judgements, and teach her that it is safe for her to be honest with you. Give her some direction as to how "much" detail you are willing to endure, as noted in previous posts.

People survive these things. People with a tried and true plan, like Marriage Builders, are more likely to survive, because it is a plan, a roadmap, if you will, to follow. And best of all, it covers most facets of what you will be facing.

Let your emotions come as they will, but use sharp judgement on how you control them, so that your pathway to recovery is not littered with damaging actions you'd have been better off not to have taken.

And post here, vent here, ask here. Many people have been through this same experience, or similar to yours. All will offer insight as to what might be best for you. Listen and learn. Make you a better you for your marriage.

Best wishes...

I am in a plan A where im trying to show her how good we could be, she absolutely loves the time im spending with her! its amazing what you notice when you look real hard at what you havent been doing well at all.. but at times i get quiet and she will ask whats wrong cause im afraid I wear my heart on my sleeve so to speak, and after being married 10 years she knows me too well.
I dont want to tell her a vision of her and the guy in the hotel room just came to me out of the blue cause i want to avoid fighting about it, but she always pushes to know what it is and i tell her then she gets queit and says "im sorry hunny" but at no time do i think im better off some where else, I love her and she loves me(else she would have left long ago) I did pick HISNEEDS/HER NEEDS FOR PARENTS but unfortunately "surivivng an affair" was not available. I did not tell her i ordered it (hopefully will be here in a couple of days) but when she perused the HIS NEEDS/HER NEEDS book she saw a color picture of "SURVIVING AN AFFAIR" she actually said we should order it....
after reading thruogh alot of mail here i surmise my situation is a little different being as it was 2 years almost that it happened and after the A my W said she realised what a great thing we had and was a "basketcase" for weeks after becasue she thought if i found out about the A i would leave. I guessed it had happened but never could prove it and she denied and denied until basically i believed her.
plan A is ongoing and we r both very touchy feely with each other, we have made love tentatively at first but now we are back to a SF side of the relationship.
The only thing Im stuck on and I fully admit it, is the PA she had, her sharing what I thought as a gift so precious that I was her only..... how does it go? "pride goeth before the fall?" well my pride is gone at least in that area, and its up to me to stand up and forget about it and go on with my marriage to a wonderful woman and mother who made a mistake
tears are running down my face as i remember all the good times we have had that are threatened by my ego, of wondering when we are together does she think of him? does she long for him? it is sure madness to think as i do, because in it all she stayed with me , and that is the improtant part and nothing else should matter.Right?
on moday the 23rd we leave for a 5 day mexican cruise that was to be our honeymoon/ ten year anniversary gift to each other. I hope to heal alot on this cruise being as we will have each others undivided attention for 5 whole days....
thank you shattered dreams for your reply

my prayers are with you
cliff

Clif,

You are NOT that unique. There have been plenty of posters that have found out years after the A was over. You are doing very well and it sounds as if your W is doing all she can. Sadly, she cannot do much to heal you. That is YOUR journey, she can join you on it, but it is YOURs to deal with.

I would strongly recommend you print out you last post and give it to her. She will understand better where you are and what you are struggling with. Again, she cannot heal you, but it will help her understand, that your struggles are with yourself as much as with her. That is normal.

You mentioned that you cannot wait to forget about this. I would like to suggest to you that you NEVER forget this. For give her yes, forget NO! You both need to remember this event, but not in a painful way, but in a way that guides both of your lives from now on. As time moves on many posters have commented that the "feelings" faded, although the memory stayed. Gradually, they came to a state that they could remember the event, but there were no longer any feelings attached to it.

I am asking you to remember this not to keep you in pain but so that you know what can happen if you do not value your marriage. Your W should do the same. She has hurt you deeply, and from what you have said she is accutely aware of this. It seems she does love you, and it seems that she does have a conscience, she told you of the affair.

One, last thing. Why are you in Plan A? It really is part of a plan to end an A. It has a component to it that is NOT healthy for a long term marriage. That component is that you put your "taker" on hold and become for a short time a full time "giver". In the long run that is not good for the marriage, hence Plan A is a short term attempt for the BS to try and convince the WS to end the A.

Your W ended her A two years ago. If you are using the plan A construct to evaluate your role in the marriage before the A and the intervening two years that is good. If you are using it to evaluate where you two have failed to meet each others needs that is good. If you are using "radical honesty" and the Policy of Joint Agreement, POJA, that is good. However, these last two things are NOT plan A things as much as they are "negotiating" tools so that you meet what Harley calls the 4 rules for a healthy marriage.

Cliff, you are doing well. You express yourself and your struggles well in writing. I really do think she needs to see what you are struggling with and your last post did an excellent job of that, show it to her. Talk with her about it, don't hide from your feelings, but don't use them to beat her up. Avoid the word "BUT" in your conversations, and explain where you struggle.

She had a reason for telling you what she did. My guess is that she wanted to save your marriage and make it even better than it has been. Join her in that endeavor and you will very likely be well rewarded. You know the old saying: <blockquote>quote:<hr /> The best revenge is a life well lived.<hr /></blockquote>I know you are not thinking of revenge in the conventional sense, but I would like to offer you an outlet to consider. Make your marriage so good that she will always wonder "What the heck was I thinking". Make it so good that she will deeply regret not opening up to you about her feelings on the marriage YEARS ago. Make it so good that YOU will never want to leave it.

You have a lot of control of this situation Cliff. I know you feel bad now, and you will need time and patience to heal the wounds, but do your best to be proactive, and think you will find that the images will fade faster, the smile on your W's face will be wider and more sincere, and YOU my friend will be much happier.

God Bless,

JL

PS: Congratulations on your 10th Anniv. and really enjoy the cruise. You can do this, and I suspect you will do this.

thank you for your kind words

Well Ive decided something, on the saturday we come back from our cruise my wife is supposed to go to a bachelorette party cause she is the maid of honor for the bride. they are supposed to spend the night at a hotel where they are going. first off the thought of my wife spending the night at a hotel froze me to the core, I actually asked her to not spend the night and let me come get get her when everything was said and done, and she said yes because she didnt want me to feel uncomfortablewith her spending the night away from her.
I said yesterday "no, i want you to go your best freind is getting married you need to go adn have a good time with her, it only happens once (hopefully) I need to start trusting you and now is a good way to show it". it still makes me nervous but I want to show her some trust.... some moving forward.....
any way do you think i did right?
cliff

still I do not know who she slept with, Im increasingly obsessing with this idea running thru my head that he is closer to her than she has let on. cause she Wont tell me who it is after 3 weeks. Am I wrong to push her on this? should I just wait till she wants to tell me?
Im scared that she works with him and that at the slightest mistep or bump in our marriage she'll be off again with him.... all i have concluded is that the guy is married and older than her...

Hello,

It is just my opinion but something is not right here. You are trusting her enough to stay all night at the hotel but she does not have enough trust in you to tell you who the OM is? What is wrong with this picture. She is still disrespecting you by not being honest with you.

How awful everytime you see another man you have to wonder is this the guy? I suspect it was with a man she works with. She is protecting him over respecting you. You may think you are in recovery but if she refuses to be honest with you about this then she is sending you a clear message about you and her feelings for protection about this OM. I think this is a very bad sign. Marriagebuilders believes in radical honesty about affairs and she is still keeping secrets from you. It seems she is being rewarded by you for not telling you the whole truth. I would be very suspicious again that this guy works with her. You and her will never be in true recovery as long as she is allowed to keep this from you.
It is horribly disrespectful to you. Doesen't this seem obvious to you? I wish you luck.

Hi Cliff-

There are several things here.

First don't push yourself to do too much too soon as a BS. There is a tendency to do things before one is ready, thinking that if you push YOUR recovery along you'll heal faster. Most of the time those that do crash and burn.

Your healing will take the time that it takes. It hurts, it sucks and you are on a rollercoaster, but that's what it will be for a while.

13 years ago I was the WW. . . I've gotten to see this from both sides .. lucky me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

You are pushing yourself to trust your wife when she has not totally come clean with you. IMO you will not be able to do this until she does, which includes telling you who the OM was. And until she comes totally clean you probably won't be able to really heal or repair.

Why?

First she is showing protection for OM instead of protection and respect for you. She may say that it won't do any good and it may hurt you more -- but the ball now is in your court.

It will do good because once you know who it is you can judge whether there has been continued contact -- it will help you in rebuilding that trust.

It will do you good because you will know she is in your camp and not protecting someone else. And you will get a better measure of where her heart is -- at this point she can talk all she wants but it's her actions now that speak louder than her words. Her refusal to tell you is screaming contridiction to her words.

You have no reason to trust her now, and until she comes totally clean, you have no reason to trust her.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> trouble is how does one trust what is said after all trust has been lost? I want to believe, the look in her eyes when she says I want you forever is something i havent seen in awhile.... <hr /></blockquote>Her actions need to back this up. Trust will come back but only through time and proving oneself worthy of having trust reinvested in them.
No, it may not be full trust, that's gone -- but she also lost the trust one normally give a spouse without question. Her actions did that.
But some form of trust can come back.

You also have an added demension .. she didn't tell you for how many years? So how do you feel about the time from her affair until the time you were told? Many spouses feel like they were living a lie - you have additional trust and respect issues to deal with.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I am becoming more and more angry at the OM ,I get very quiet and I dont like feeling like this, I know i should just be angry with her and i was but he had to have known she was married, in fact I surmise that he also was married due to the clandestine manner of their meeting.<hr /></blockquote>Becoming more angry with the OP than the WS is actually normal -- it's a defense mechanism and many psychologist use that so a BS can push enough pain away from the WS so that they can work on the relationship.

As long as it does not manifest itself into physical harm to the OP, stalking, distruction of OPs property, physical harm to your wife, yourself or anyone else -- it's okay and normal.

Being angry and being hurt isn't an LB .. letting the WS see it isn't an LB (you'r not in plan A) -- how you express your anger and pain can be.

Vent here if need be so you don't vent at your wife... label the subject line "vent"

This is an "E" ticket ride.

way2

cliff...

Glad to see you are still around. Also glad to see you are getting Surviving an Affair. Until you have the book, spend some time exploring this MB website, and learn what you can.

The others that have said "don't push too hard" are right. Trust this information. As you read about MB you will learn about many things, and one of them is the peculiar way a WS feels about sharing information with the BS. To the BS, it's a simple matter, spill your guts, tell it all and tell it NOW!

To the WS, it simply doesn't reason that way. They are filled with many emotions and reactions and sometimes have no idea how to express their own feelings about what they have done. It is a combination of guilt, remorse, fear, and believe it or not, they rationalize that they shouldn't tell you so as not to hurt you any more.

Truth is, both parties want the whole damn thing to just dissapear and go away, but the WS often clings to that impossible hope longer than the BS can handle it.

You might consider reading the SAA book together with your W, and as the book addresses Radical Honesty, that might be a good time to calmly express your feelings to her about needing to know more. Give her a safe and protected environment to share her feelings, and don't give in to LoveBusters or Disrespectful Judgements.

One good description is that you are both working on a jigsaw puzzle, and she has all the pieces, plus the box, so she is aware of the whole picture. At the same time, you only have some of the pieces, and no box with a picture to work from, so there is great difficulty in making the picture whole. I don't know if I explained that well, hopefully you get the gist.

Sounds like you are in a good position to make a better and healthier marriage. Stay focused and energized toward that goal.

SD

thank you i understand , barnes and noble called while i was away on my anniversary cruise so im getting it (SAA) today after work .
again thank you all,
cliff

Cliff,

Our D-Days are pretty close and so I follow your story closely. I was reading "How Can We Light A fire When the Kids Are Driving Us Crazy" (Perhaps I'm getting ahead of myself, just trying to prepare for the future while WH is trying to navigate through the fog). Anyway I thought this exerpt was helpful:

"If being too tired is one of your excuses for not spending time with your mate, begin paying attention to your "self-talk." It;s generally accepted in the psycological community that our subconscious mind, which controls our body and our physical and emotional responses, is programmed by our conscious mind. So, whatever we tell ourselves on a conscious level is what our subconscious, and our body, believes. How we feel - tired or energetic, listless or enthusiastic - is mental, not physical."

The book goes on to give an example of how your tired and ready for bed but then an unexpected dear friend who just happened to be in the neighborhood drops by. All of a sudden your energized to talk the night through.

Anyway, this morning I'm trying to act in a way that a confident and happy person would behave (I need a bit more coffee.) It worked for me yesterday and carried me through the day. I actually bought flowers on the way home.

I thought I'd share something that sometimes helps me. Keep up the good fight.

Loy

Loy I know what you mean and I am trying to change that, we have talked more than we ever have before and the SF side has NEVER been like this before, its almost enough to wash away some of the fear, not completly but it goes away for awhile.

This shaking keeps me steady,
I should know.
It falls away ,
But always is near.
I go to bed in evening
and take my waking slow
I learn by going,
where I have to go.

I used to read alot of poetry, but forgive me if I misremeber exactly how this went but it suffices for the moment.

youll get a kick out of this, my wife doesnt want to tell me who it is because she's afraid Ill "hunt him down and kill him or something". like that would solve anything for me? probably wouldnt even make me feel better. well Loy I hope your doing ok i know how it is when you spot a little blood my wife did the same with our twins. they are 9 now almost 10
my prayers are with you
cliff

Shattered dreams,
well the time in between was hard, I knew from certain things and goings on that she had slept with someone, like she was never registered at the hotel she said she was at. she acted funny, and she (after years of very little SF which was 3 to 4 times a month) wanted to and did sleep with me every day in july '01 after that june. her excuse for not actually being at the hotel was so out there i could see right thruogh her. we separated in sep '01 and I started seeing someone else . I make no excuses for this but at the time I was stone cold inside towards my wife I couldnt belive she wouldnt tell me the truth when i just knew she had done something. we stayed separated till almost December then we moved back in together. I did tell her about the OW and the relationship I had with her. we got back together for the kids originally and from there we stayed I dont know how to describe it, just worked on getting closer then it just too much for her cause from time to time i would ask her about that summer and she finally told me. to say i was shocked was an understatement though i dont know why it should have been. I had put everything together easily ,I just knew she had slept with someone. but still when finally told the truth I cried like a baby funny huh? I guess i wanted to believe her so bad that i convinced myself that she hadnt and would never........
reality has a way of smacking you in the face just to wake you up sometimes.
thank you for your advice shattered dreams it does help and i do listen.
cliff

Very few conversations about the A nowadays, more just regular conversation. started reading SAA but she stopped after a little while calling the book "depressing" . I had to agree but refrained from saying that being in this situation is depressing. Weve had a good week and a couple of romantic dinners to go along with it, even if we waited till the kids were asleep..

hmmm funny thing this, i find im treating people differently. I guess i can see how much what i say affects people.... so i indeed try and say little as possible negative and more positive things , even if there is little positive to be found in anything.
Ive sen some people say PLAN "a" isnt about making you a better person but somehow i think it does make you a better person. just by taking what they say you should do in marriage, and by applying that too everyday life i find a little peace if not in my marriage then in the rest of my life.... treating people the way youd like to be treated, (shaking head) easy to say isnt it? but how many ACTUALLY do it?
just a thought.... god bless everyone
cliff

I know what you mean about Plan A. It is very healing, helps you recongize how people should be treated on a daily basis. Treating other people well is very comforting and relaxing. In some ways it's all you can do.

I don't think the BS needs to know about everything, but you deserve to know the name of the OM and where he works. If not knowing makes you feel vulnerable, I hope your wife will have the courage to tell you.

Well loy
the main reason i want to know who it is , is to make sure she doesnt have contact with the OM. cause after 2 years of lieing why should now i trust here when she says there has been no contact or more betrayal? if she works with him (and i suspect she does and i know the OM) I dont feel comfortable with her working where she works anymore. why else the protection of a name?
Also id love to phone his wife for a talk,maybe not realistic but still maybe satisfying in one way or another.

also another point, radical honesty is needed for a start of a rebuilding marriage starting in trust. And that honesty is lacking from my wife, she puts the other man over me when she says she wont tell me his name. I am her husband not him, her putting of him over me is repugnant to me almost like SHE did care for him or love him somewhat that she would protect him from whatever I would do.

wow is all i can think right now, was sitting on the couch and tears just started pouring down my face, I rarely cry and when i do its brief, this just kept going and going for 10 minutes. wife saw me and came over to me and started hugging me telling me how sorry she was and how she loed me.... i wasnt trying to make her feel bad it just all came out in a rush........im not used to being so emotional...

cliff

Been there, done that. I'm Mr. Old Timer Stoic Never Show Any Emotion No Matter What. But one night, about 3 months after DDay, we went to bed, and I just couldn't hold it any longer, and cried like a baby after circumcision.

My WW held me, too. Never was a word spoken, but there was a lot of information tranferred between us at that time. You may have just said volumes to your W in a wordless way.

Understand Plan A and follow it to a T. Always be pleasant and understanding. Fill her love bank at every opportunity. Spend quality time together without discussing your relationship. Choose wisely the times you do need to talk about it, and NEVER use LoveBuster's or Disrespectful Judgements. If you make the conversation threatening to her in ANY way, she will clam up, and you are back to square one.

You will doubt your own sanity while exercising Plan A, but I can tell you...it works.

Pulling for you daily

SD

thanks....

Cliff,
I saw your post and wanted to respond because there are similarities to our situations.

I, too, was my Mr. Stoic until the news of the A hit. I've cried and I've had what I'd term anxiety attacks. I'm now on AD's (Wellibutrin)

Alot of MBers go through a honeymoon period right after DDay. The marriage seems better than ever with lots of renewed SF. I think that it is important for you but especially your W to know that recovery goes through phases. Why? She currently sees your reaction to the A as reasonably loving & kind. There may, however, be a time when the anger comes out and you wonder whether you want to stay married to her. Most MBers say this comes in the 6-12 month post DDay period, but everyone is different.

You described an episode where you started crying. Thos may become more intense and frequent before they diminish. You may want to consider an AD also. Signs of depression: you start to have trouble focusing at work or you are lethargic/tired all the time or lose appetite or mood swings or you don't receive enjoyment out of things that used to make you happy.

Based upon my situation I believe what I've read about the discovery of an A being similar in nature to witnessing a horrific accident. It causes stress that not everyone can deal with alone.

Have you gone to IC or MC? I hope that the "honeymoon" lasts but if you are like 90% of MBers it won't so you should start counseling now not later when the anger or apathy hit.

cwmac

Cliff, sorry that you are here for the same reasons many of us had searched and found this site. All I can tell you is that it is very traumatic with a lot of deep emotions that you may have never experienced. It hurts so much that the crying will be part of it. There are a lot of sleepless nights and anguish. You will have many doubts and questions that will never be answered. Anger towards the other man is part of the equation. Do you have children? What is your wife doing to repair the damage? Actually, it cannot be repaired, but she must be making some effort to explain why she did it or try to figure out why she was willing to put you through all of this.
There are no clear cut answers and no clear solutions. We each handle our own situations differently. I too valued what she had given me as a very precious gift. We were the first and only for each other until the affair ruined all of that. Because we have small children, we stayed under the same roof and are working to be the friends that we once were. If you are a religious person, pray a lot and vent your frustrations that way, never tell them to her because she will hurt.

I forgot to ask, you said the A happened over three years ago and why did she tell you? What did she want to do?

actually its been work just tryting to get her to fill out the emotional needs questionaire....she doesnt want to read SAA cause its"deprssing" she said, its a work in progress.
as to why she told me, I had always suspected and asked her several times.all points added up to her having an A but she denied it for a long time... she finally told me when i asked once again about it in FEB. said it had been waying on her mind and she felt i kept that betwen us and didnt trust her when she would go anywhere. She said she wanted to get closer to me and she felt only by telling the truth would we get closer.
no couseling as of yet she has always balked at going, i have gone but talking to myself got old and quite frankly the couseler didnt seem that good maybe i should have tried someone else but being an intelligent guy i figured i could just go on by myself. "pride goeth before the fall" as they say.....my parents divorced and remarried 3 times and that was just to each other,

You should recover faster than most, but she needs to contribute to the healing process. There are some inconsistencies in your reactions, such as trusting right away. She has to regain your trust and she needs to begin by being totally honest with you and tell you all that you want to know. If she just reads Surviving an Affair and applies the principles suggested by Dr. Hartley, she will understand this. God is almighty and works in many ways. God bless you.

well we just did the EN's questionaire, quite surprising actually......... i guess my wanting to trust is maybe if i show her i trust her I actually will inside....

she asked a funny question minutes before i got on here , she asked since she told me of her affair "do i find her less attractive?"
nothing could be farther from the truth for me I love my wife and she is my angel. also she wanted to know if i really still wanted to sleep with her??? I could never see a reason that i wouldnt want to make love with my wife. almost thru SAA on my own highlighting the parts i think would most help us, will try and get her to go thru amd mark hers(with a different colour). hope i can get her to read it soon........

Cliff,
Again your W is acting similar to mine. I had bought a number of books to help with post A life and wanted to read them with her. She refused saying it was too painful.

I wish she had because recovery has been bumpy. Your W needs to know that she can't bury her head in the sand and hope that all of this gets better. It takes alot of work and she needs to be actively involved regardless of how guilty she feels.

My W thought that recovery was really for me to work on individually with her just giving support. That's wrong. It's a team effort.

Keep working with her and telling her that she needs to help.

cwmac

thanks Cwmac.
Preacher back when the A happened (june 19 2002) I put things together, so ive lived until recently with the thought of my wife with another man sayalmost a year and a half of distrust pain and anguish along with a 3 month separation to boot. now its been weeks if not a full month since actually knowing she slept with someone. when should i start trusting her again if i may be so bold as to ask?
I say holding on to anything for any extended quantity of time, wounds the soul far more than her actual affair. after spending this long distrusting her I choose to trust, she didnt have to tell me. should i punish the honsty she had in telling me? in the span of time after the affair she couldve left at any moment for the OM. She didnt adn here we are , I could choose to revisit the pain on her by continually bring it up...... or could choose to PROTECT, CARE, BE HONEST with the woman I hold above all others ..... I can not imagine living a life without her . we married when she was 18 and i was 22.
to say that i am inconsistent is a little bizarre. the only thing consistent about me at this point is my inconsistency. im up im down usually in the same day....... nothing matters... then everything does
THE ONLY THING I WILL NEVER WAVER ON IS MY LOVE FOR MY WIFE AND NEVER GIVING UP ON MY MARRIAGE.

"wether tis nobler in the heart, to weather the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, or by opposing, end them"

"It may be sorrow never to sing,
and to go silent throughout the brimming day,
It may be sorrow never to love ,
but deeper griefs than these beset the way.

To have missed the perfect song,
and by only a half note lost the key,
Theres the sorrow ,theres the grief,
the pale sad staring eyes of lifes tragedy.

To have missed the perfect love,
not the hot passion of untemperd youth,
But that which lays aside its vanity,
and gives you for your trusting worship,truth.

This it is to be accursed indeed,
for if we mortals love, or if we sing,
we count our joys, not by what we have,
but by what kept us from the perfect thing."

Hello,

It is really sad that your wife still refuses to tell you who the OM is and that you think it is with someone at work. As long as she continues to withhold this information from you I think you will continue to have major problems. She continues to put the health and welfare of the OM over you. How do you think she would be reacting if the roles had been reversed? Either you have honesty in your marriage or you don't. It is like water torture the game your wife is playing with you. It is very sad that she does not see how destructive what she is doing to you and your marriage. If she does not believe in you to be honest with you then I simply do not know how you can trust her in the future. Unfortunately she apparently does not realize that she continues to disrespect and humiliate you by her actions. Again apparently there are no consequences to her actions by keeping the identity of the OM a secret to you. Maybe you should consider the ramifications and its meaning to you and your marriage. I wish you luck.

Well in a previous post it was said that I should not push the issue and just keep going on with what i was doing.....when she reads the book hopefully she will understand the need for total honesty........

Cliff,
There's nothing unusual about your behavior. I think most BS are very inconsistent in their behavior towards WS/FWS especially right after DD.

In my case I'd bounce back and forth from loving moments to complete melt downs in which numerous locker room names for females were used (sl@! and wh@^* to name a few) That's all part of the process for some. It's very confusing to WS/FWS though.

You'll probably run through the various scenarios before it's all done:

Revenge: Having an A of your own. For the selfish reason of wanting to know that there is someone out there that wants you.

Abandonment: Leaving her to fend for herself.

Trust: Will you always be the proverbial sleeping cat that always has one eye open.

I forget are you on AD's? They do help.

cwmac

No i really hate pills, and am scared of becoming a zombie like guy with a smile on my face even though im dying inside. I guess that an immature thought of AD's but was on serzone once and didnt like the feeling when i took it. and lucky me after i started a reprot came out saying serzone cause's liver damage

Cliff,
There are other options. BTW just about everything in modern society causes cancer.

cwmac

lol ya your right about that.
today was tough, she came home from work sick, and instead of feeling much of anything I was pretty blase about that. I ran around and got her the stuff she needed picked up her prescriptions came home cooked her chicken noodle soup made sure was comfortable but i actually felt resentment about it a little and i dont know why
bad day bad day. cwmac would you go see your regular doc for these AD's?

Cliff,
It's up to you. Two choices:

1) Go to your local HMO PPO doctor (this is what I did at first) They will probably have you fill out a form or interview you. How sad are you on scale of 1-5? This type of question. If you're in a small town and your doctor really knows you this can work unfortunately my doctor doesn't know me very well.

2) Go to a psychiatrist. They'll ask the same questions but they know how to interpret the responses better than a GP doctor. Also if the AD's don't work they are probably better suited at making adjustments. My IC made me go bc. the AD's perscribed by the GP weren't working all that well. And no I'm not bipolar nor do I have multiple personalities. Just severe depression that has lasted way too long. (Probably due to the long odyssey of discovery)

I really wish I had taken the advice from all of the old timers and gotten on the AD's as soon as I stongly suspected the A. I'd probably be off of them by now.

cwmac

[ March 15, 2004, 07:41 PM: Message edited by: cwmac ]

thanks

well asked once again who it was and how and where they met. got a "i dont feel comfortable telling you right now."

Hey Cliff,
Sorry to see that the W is stonewalling you on this. I hope she reaizes that this is something that you need to recover.

Did she tell you,"why she didn't feel comfortable telling you?"

Does she think you're going to grab your shotgun and go varmint hunting?

Question: How do/did you react when she gave you information on the A?

Is she normally a conflict avoider? Maybe she thinks that all of this will eventually be forgotten and swept under the rug.

Forgotten, never; forgiven, yes.

cwmac

I am sorry that I don't have time to write more, but I have to get my little girl to bed. I just wanted to say that she really does need to tell you anything you want to know. You won't really recover otherwise. She's being self centered by refusing to. I would suggest going to findarticles.com and read "Shattered Vows" and ask her to do the same. Glass does a GREAT job of explaining why you need to know.

Also, the book Torn Asunder is very, very good. Good luck.

well i reacted as well as any body could i guess. she told me "cliff, I had an affair" and thne started just crying and sobbing. I immmediatly hugged her wanting her to stop hurting.....I touched her cause i hate when she hurts. she hurts i hurt.

and yes she actually said "im afraid if i tell you youll hunt him down and kill him" and that is a direct quote.i roll my eyes at this statement cause at most i want to tell his wife.which if im right about who, she worried cause this guy and his wife just had a baby.....

also yes she acts as if to just kind of sweep this under the rug. i had to nag at her for days to fill the EN's questionnaire, now im doing it for the book SAA

[ March 16, 2004, 10:22 PM: Message edited by: cliff ]

I'm starting to get pissed off at your wife!!

An affair is one of the most selfish things a person can do. After the A some WS continue their selfish behavior as your W is doing. Her needs and the OM's needs are taking a higher priority to yours just as they did during the A.

BTW, your W knows exactly how to make you back off. She cries and you forget your question and run to comfort her. Next time she pulls that calmly in a soft voice say," I'm sorry that this is upsetting you but I firmly believe that I need to know this before I can begin recovery until then we're just treading water. Don't you want me to start recovery?

Who do you think it is? Have you mentioned to her your suspicions? Maybe just make the posative assumption and force her to prove that you're incorrect.

cwmac

[ March 17, 2004, 01:15 PM: Message edited by: cwmac ]

well i told her this morning that i do not feel comfortable sleeping with her(making love) and until i kow who it is, i will not make love with her and i will not be able to move forward in our marriage plus i wouldnt be going to a wedding with her because i do not feel like we r a couple. also i said if she loved this guy that much to protect him then i wish her the best i would be fine on my own i only want her to be happy.

well she mesaged me on my cell "come have lunch with me and i will talk to you"
fingers crossed hoping that this is for real.......

[ March 17, 2004, 10:00 AM: Message edited by: cliff ]

Hello again,

I hope you read and reread the latest post to you from CWMAC. How can you not see that you are being manipulated? She is allowed to be deceptive and not honest with you. The Harley's believe that it is essential that all of the betrayed spouses be informed of what transpired. The basics of radical honesty is not being practiced by your wife.
Again apparently there are no consequences to her actions and you take her on a vacation instead. From her point of view it makes sense never to tell you and keep the truth from you since you are in fact enabling her to continue with this type of behavior. I know this sounds harsh but you continue to allow her to disrespect you and your marriage. As long as she shows tears you turn to mush. Please read cwmac again and again. She continues to put the priority of her own selfish behavior and that of the OM and his marriage over you. You judge a person by their actions and not by their words. The OM and his marriage is her priority and you are secondary.
I wish you luck and hope your wife realizes how destructive her behavior is to you and your marriage.

well at last she has told me the truth. it was someone she worked with at another store (she works in a chain grocery store) so that monkey is off my back. i did have to promise to NC with the guy but i can live with that all i wanted was honesty.... so that we could move forward.

Great job Cliff:

What you said to her was perfect. This is a perfect example of how tough love can be effective. It forces the WS to step into reality and out of the fog to realize the consequences of their actions and the repercussions that will ensue if honesty is not adhered to. It seems to be shown so often that until a betrayed spouse shows some backbone that the wayward spouses refuses to show honesty and respect toward their partner. The bottom line is that you did great and your wife realizes what she may have lost with her contined withholding of the truth. I am sure she respects you and your marriage more now than ever. Good luck.

well she was a little perturbed by what she called an "ultimatum" but she told me anyway and after said she was glad she did.

depression hitting a little harder tonight than usual, while talking and asking me not too have contact with him or the OM W, she said "I went to him willingly, I wanted to be with him in any way i could. I went into his arms willingly"

to say that hurt would be like saying the ocean is a bit salty or that antartica is bit chilly.
once again my self esteem went out the window she was affectionate tonight but i just wasnt in the mood ,i visualize them together now more than ever .it comes more into focus the longer i think about it her holding him tight as they come together, her face in passion .heer scratching and biting his shoulder ( things shes done for me but now i associate everything she has done in a sexual way with me with him) I asked it was a sexual reason she had the affair she said no but at this point , I am totally crushed as a man. i never knew how much of my self esteem was from her when we made love, i have no confidence except at work where ive been on the job for years and as always i excell there but at home i feel just like im walking on eggshells .im unsure of when and how to iniate anything from coversation to intimacy. hope to get an appointment tommoorrow with DR for some ADs'as i have never felt so worthless as i did today. i dont eat much sleep well (you can see the time i write this) I feel absolutely worthless right now .................hate feeling like this. I will be stronger tommorrow, i hope.

"Once in Persia, reigned a king,
Who had engraved upon his signet ring,
A maxim true and wise,
Which if held up before the eyes,
Gave him counsel at a glance,
Fit for every change and circumstance,
Solemn words amd these are they,
Even this shall pass away"
god bless every one
my prayers are with you all everyday.
cliff

especially you LOY you go girl you are pretty amazing hope your timw with your pastor and your H gets you on the road to recovery finnally

Please go see your MD and at least discuss AD's.

cwmac

sorry i didnt add tha CWMAC my appointmnet is on tuesday next week to see my DR for the AD's. belive me i thought i could handle this and have rapidly come to the conclusion i cant without help. appreciatte your help in that area CW. I guess you never really know until you get there what you can handle. Ive seen all kinds of horrible things in my life and they never affected me like this. Today is a good day............. I may sing today, others might ask me to please spare their ears.....

AHH well call me slow of wit some times, call me stupid. I now know why my wife wanted no contact between me and the OM, and the OM's wife, it wasnt that she feared me doing something stupid, nor was she worried about hurting the wife anymore than she has or the children if they have any. Plain and simple she knew that if i brought it up to either of the other 2 that suddenly everyone would know of her affair and as self concious as she is , that would have killed her that everyone would be talking of it behind her back.
So over a month of wondering, of pain and anguish, of depression thinking she loved and protected the OM over me boils down to just plain she didnt want to be embarassed in front of all her friends. now thats what everyone should look for in a mate, self preservation above all.
It hit me as she was telling me and she was sobbing about me contacting them and i wondered "whats to cry that hard about"? took me 2 days to finally figure it out. my mind is not the powerhouse it used to be oh well sue me,
NOW i am angry......... perhaps this isnt worth it afterall

Hello,

I would certainly contact the OM's wife especially after this revelation. The bottom line is that it is the right thing to do. If the roles were reversed, wouldn't you want someone to inform you that your spouse cheated on you behind your back? I am sorry that your wife may feel embarassed but this is the consequences of her actions. Acting like it never happened and keeping it a secret simply allows the betrayers to continue in the future hurting other innocent people. There are consequences to cheating and breaking your marriage vows. How sad that her main fear is being embarassed. What depth she has.
I wish you luck.

shall i then become the foresworn? after swearing silence i break it????
no , sir indeed, shall not become like those that coem before me. I swore to not contac t and so I shall i not doo.