Hello all,

This seemed like a good place to post. "Tall Man" sounds just like me.

My wife and I are just getting started in a dissolution process which she has asked for. It's been about 1 month since she mentioned that she wants out.

After years of neglect and verbal abuse, I can honestly say that I don't blame her at all. I blame us. However, I keep fighting with myself in the blame game mostly because of my recent efforts to make this marriage survive this. So I'm blaming myself even though I should not and I know it.

When she told me that she wanted out, it was like no other time before. I took it very serious and snapped mentally. I instantly set up an appointment with a therapist and was (and still am) destined to be a better man and fix what's been wrong with me for years. Fix what she's been missing and show her that I want her in my life through my efforts. In the past I have been controlling, a terrible conversationist, I have degraded her, I've lacked in giving her the attention that she needs, and the list goes on and on. After 15 years, I have come to realize that what I am is not who I want, nor does she nor will anyone else.

Over the last month, I have felt so good about myself and so determined to change and be a better man with or without her. I would have rather it been with her, but as of yesterday, she has confirmed my worst fears. She's leaving anyways.

My heart is torn apart. She really is confused and it hurts me to no end to think that her confusion is leading her into a terrible mistake. In only one month, I had done so much. Maybe too much. Maybe I overwhelmed her with the house cleaning, laundry, dinners and music? I think maybe so. But in only one month, I've felt so good about me and what I want to become that I had the rest of our life all planned out. A life of joy and happiness for her and our 2 children.

Still, it does not matter. She's leaving and taking my hopes and dreams for us with her. I'm crying at this mistake I know in my heart that she is making. I know in my heart what I want and it's real. It's a shame. I love that woman with all of my heart and it hurts so bad to let her go.

Last night, I decided to stop begging and just let her go. That was the toughest decision I have ever made in my life! I'll move on with my intentions and become that better man! I can only hope that she sees this before it's too late. I've told her and my son that if mommy ever loves me again that I'll take her back in a heart beat, but I'm afraid that if she's gone too long and I become that better man I so desire, that I might lose that love that I have for her and not want to go through this pain again. I can't imagine that I will ever stop loving her, but I just can't say for sure. You just can't continue to love something that hates you.

I have to move on too. I have work to do.

Somebody please help me make it through this and keep loving her as long as I can! I have to be strong but I have no one to help me other than a weekly visit to my therapist.

You don't have to move on just because she says there is no chance. Yes, you can't express your love in the same ways you can when she is receptive, but you don't have to give up.

If I were you (and my situation is pretty similar) I would continue to work on yourself. You'll be a better person overall, and you will be more attractive to her. Whether she can get over the past and see you for who you are now is up to her, you have no control about that. But you will know that you gave it everything you have.

And it's only been 1 month. You have so much more time for things to change. Change is always possible. You aren't done growing yet, and perhaps she needs more time to believe that the change is real.

One of the things I often tell myself is that because I love my wife and kids (and myself), I cannot quit. They deserve the best of me, even if they don't know it right now.

Keep the faith. You don't know what lies ahead.

I agree with Mel Vin completely. I am in the exact same situation as you; I emotionally abused my wife and I have a serious anger control problem. I am not out of the woods, by no means, but I listened and started to heal myself. Crying, begging, and promising will get you nowhere, trust me, I did it for 3 weeks after she left, and the 6 months before she left. You have to focus on YOU now. As soon as I "let go" and began working on me, my wife gave me small opportunities (phone calls and so on) to show my improvement. Once again, at first, I was pushy and just wanted her back. It didn't help. Just let her know that you still care about her. I am very lucky to say that my wife came home last night to give me another chance. I don't know if I am truly stable or not yet, but I have to play with the cards that God has dealt me. I also remember that he will never give me a task that I cannot handle.

There are many good books out there dealing with separation. I gave "hope for the separated" by gary chapman and "Getting back together" by Youngs and Goetz. I also purchased an "anger workbook" and work in it daily. Counseling is very important too. Remember though, your goal now should be fixing YOU. That is your best chance on fixing things with your marriage. I am in this with you bud. I do not wish this on anyone. I am probably not the best to be giving you advice on this issue. I am brand new and in the middle of this myself, but I just wanted to pass on some advice that many of the others have given me over the past few weeks. The thing that has helped the most is this site and friends. Create your own support group with family and friends. To me, an ear was the best thing I needed, and that I still need. My coworker was very good help too. He is getting married to his ex-wife! Over that past few years apart, they managed to repair their marriage and come together as one. To me, that is hope at its finest. Let me know if you need anything. I will be more than happy to lend an ear.

I really appreciate everything you two have said. I've read your posts time and time again. I do feel better this evening than earlier today after reading your posts. I still love her, but I did let go today. I agreed that she could start the paperwork she's been dying to start. She's in such a rush to do this, but I'm done trying to delay it any longer. It's draining me of the energy that I need to make my life better and make myself better.

I will do as you suggest without question. I tell her I love her and am holding kind general conversations with her. I have no hate in my heart for her at all. I will never hurt her intentionally for as long as I live. I regret this whole thing, but I suppose it's for the best. As I said, I can't love somebody that hates me. I gotta let go and get back to working on myself. For the sake of those that beleive in me.

Thanks a lot for your support guys!

Wow
Your crisis sound just like mine. My anger issues, emotional neglect, laziness have all led my wife to ask me to leave. The final straw was when I got in a heated argument with her mother. Since that point she has told me she is filing for divorce that she can't trust me. Her mother already has a lawyer lined up and her appt for filing it this up coming Thurs.
I did the same thing as you did. Called a counceler right off the bat. Got both myself and with my wife. She has since stopped going after only two times. I am working with both a counceler and a psych nurs to get my anger issues under control.
Like you it has been a month. The longest month of my life. I have lost over 30lbs and still get panic attacks daily. I love my wife dearly and am hurt to know that I caused so much hurt to her. I will do just about anything to be back with her.
She has agreed to go to marriage coaching and on dates with me and to have me around the house to help her out but is still hell bent on divorce. She says maybe in six months to a year she can trust me and we can get back together. I just don't get the divorce part of that.
So that give me a time line to help myself. Like I said I have started the process of a new me, new attitude. This will help in all aspects of my life. I have also started to get my own life. Go to the gym every day, coffee with friends etc. i think I the past month I have read about two dozen anger, marriage repair type books. many have good ideas but don't over do it as it takes over your mind.
Time will tell. We have our first coaching session tomorrow, and a date on Sat.(her birthday). But she still is going to the lawyer on Thurs.:(
Good luck you to.
Stay strong and do this for you. She will notice. Mine in just a month has seen some of my changes. Time. Its your best friend and your worst enemy all at the same time.
B

Glad that you are making changes in yourself. Remember, if you don't want a divorce, don't do anything to make it possible. Let the Mrs. do all of the work, and try to stall it while you are still making changes.

Please read all of the information here about meeting emotional needs until you really get it. Stick with us and we will help you.

My councelor told me that I can't stop divorce. I can only prolong it and the pain that is associated with it. The only hope is continuos acts of kindness. Unfortunately I think I overdone it on that part. I think the things I did were so overwhelming, so unlike me, so 180 from what I've always been that it appeared like lip service or a show. It's sad that I did too much, but it was all from my heart and didn't feel like work at all. I have a lot of energy - energy that has always been spent on the wrong things. I never thought I could do TOO much. But I'm afraid I did. We're picking up the papers from the courthouse tomorrow and it's a 30-90 day process the "easy way".

I've read so many stories in here about a woman realizing the changes and starting to believe in their man. But in my case, she's stubborn and blind to the fact that it really is true. I am devoted to her and being what she always deserved. There's the pain!

Still, the continuous acts of kindness, one right after the other, is far easier than the begging strategy. I pray every day that she wakes up and sees the new man in me before it's too late. If she does not, then it's a crying shame. A shame for our family I want so hard to keep.

I wish the best for all of you that are here to help me and yourselves!

Hi

I'm new here and it's astonishing how many of you and the posts that I read here is exactly what I'm going through!

From what I have read in this specific posts you guys are all making good changes in your lives. Well, I'm on the flip side of that coin. I moved out of our house with my daughter 3 weeks ago after being in a marriage with a verbally abusive and controlling husband for 11.5 years.

I have since told my husband that I want a divorce. He was very remorseful and started to make changes in his life as well as promises of changes for the future. Thats all very well, but I've heard it all before. Why should I believe him now? You guys all mention how true and honest these changes are but how do we believe that.

I truly love my husband but I just couldn't take it anymore. It's always easy to say I'm sorry after the deed has been done. And for my husband, that was his apology so everything should be forgotten. Two weeks later he would say hurtful things again. Once again the sorry and i should just forget. Well, I did, for 11.5 years until I got fed up. I decided to take my life back.

Me moving out is not about being selfish or not wanting to give him another chance. I'M SCARED. There is a saying that goes: "Sticks and stones can break my bones, but words will never hurt me". Who came up with that BS? Words might not hurt you physically but believe me, it breaks you. Why should I be considerate towards his feelings and he doesn't give me a second thought. Yes, I know, it was said in a moment of anger... Yeah right, you were born angry.

My husband never thought I would leave. I have left a couple of times before, maybe a month or so at my parents and then I would move back after all the promises and 2 weeks later were back at the start again. Well, this time I moved out and got a place of my own. Now suddenly he realises that I'm serious???

I can truly see that he has changed and that he wants to make this work. This is really the first time that he listened to what i said was hurting me and wants to change. I just find it very hard to go back. It took me 11 years to realise that I do not deserve to be treated like that. I have finally realised that i'm not worthless and now he's asking me to come back. How can I be sure that i won't fall back in that state of depression.

I promised myself 3 weeks ago that I will never ever allow anyone to degrade me or make me feel like nothing again. So yes, i do see the begging and the changes but I also changed. I told my husband last night that at the moment I am so angry at him that I do not think that I can tell him if I will ever come back. At the moment I just want to be away from him... Maybe couple months or even a year will I be able to give him an answer. I also told him not to wait for me. That is not fair on him. That does not mean I have made up my mind to divorce him. I just told him that because he kept asking me for an answer.

I think we should take this time to sort out ourselves. If he wants me to give him an answer now, than divorce would be it. I was thinking more along the line of seperation - to sort out my head. I've just realised that i should be taking control of my life - Is it unfair to ask for time?

This has nothing to do with being stubborn or punishing the guys.
I know this might not be specific towards your posts here but i do think that maybe, just maybe you would try to understand or advise me whether I am being unfair...

Hello Scary1,

I think you've really come to the wrong place to get good advice for your particular situation. A new thread would bring completely diferent answers to your questions, but since you came here I gotta say to you what I would say if you were my lovely wife.

I am not your husband and I don't know your husband or how real his sincerity is, but I'll tell you about mine a little more.

My wife and I had several bumps along the way, several threats of divorce popped up over 15 years, however, this one I could see in her eyes. It was diferent than ever before.

I talked her into going to one f my therapy sessions with me and the therapist asked her questions about me. Her answers disgusted me about myself and I was embarassed to no end. When I left that session, I could barely walk. I was so weak I barely made it to the car. I completely fell apart.

Now, my sincerity is real. My desire to be what she never had is real. Believe me please! I have invested time in our relationship but not often enough did invest my energy into it. I am fully prepared at this point in my life to be a better man and never allow this disaster to ever happen to me or ayone I love again. I can't believe myself. can't believe that it tok me to age 38 to wake the hel up! If I can thank her for anything at all, it was the wake up call. I owe her big time. I am going to continue to love her with all of my heart as long as I can, and strive to become a better man.

If you husband is doing all of the things that I am, which is strictly voluntary admission - I would suggest to you to follow my therapist's suggestion to my wife of suspending any decision of to stay or to go for just a little while. Years of damage can't be corrected in a month. Keep your guard up for your own safety but try to leave yourself open to the idea that he may be as sincere about a permanent change like I am.

I sure wish my wife would. I have such a promissing future for our family, but she's so numb that she's blind to the reality of my faith in myself and the desire that I have of making everyone around me feel safe, and respected.

I hope I helped.

hubiscous,

I think you counselor is somewhat right, but I don't see the point in saying it. You have two choices, you can ignore how you feel and the person you want to be, and start looking to some new life. Or you can continue to believe that your marriage is suppossed to be. You know who you are, and you are that person regardless of whether your wife believes you or not (my wife doesn't believe me either). You move on when you're ready to move on, not a minute sooner, IMO.

The way I think of it, the longer you stay on course, if and when she does snap and start believe, she'll have all that time as evidence to see who you are, will only make your recovery and marriage that much stronger.

As for the divorce...that's just papers and money. It doesn't say that you can't say and do nice things for your wife, or that she can't respond to you. People throw away divorce papers every day. People get remarried everyday. Even if you can't see how things could possible turn around, there is always a chance.

Thanks

this is all helping a lot. We had a very long converstaion tonight, and for the first time in 15 years, it felt good! Even though it was about divorce. Weird huh! We talked like we were best friends. Talked like lovers should. Calm, cool, and collective. I feel like a real dork saying that we had a good conversation about divorce.

The cool thing is, I saw it for myself what I am becomming and I enjoyed it a lot! It gave me even more energy. It's really nice how being so calm and nice gives you energy to do more of it. I feel GREAT! (for the moment). I'll get back to ya when the Zanax wears off lol.

No really, I have a level head right now, even though after hours of talking she still says she "just has to do this". You'd think I'd go right back to hurting again, and it does a little, but my energy is really high. Somebody is going to enjoy this man I will become. And I'm excited about that! Especially if it's my wifey! If not, I'll know what I am and that I did all I could.

Great thread here - feeling much better!

Hi Hubiscous

I purposely posted on this thread coz i thought it would help me and believe me it did.

Everyone that posted here was from a male perspective and everything voiced was exactly what I have been hearing from my husband. I couldn't believe that there were other guys out there doing and saying the same things.

I must say, it has given me a whole new perspective on my husband. It was very helpful hearing it from someone else. I think because I have known him so long, I thought that it's not possible for him to change regardless of the re-assurance he gives me. I am also not blind to the fact that not everything can change in a few weeks but I can see that he, and you have made tremendous strides in trying to be better.

Because of this, i have decided to give my marriage one last go. Obviously not immediately, but I have assured my husband that I would return as soon as I work some of my own personal issues. By this, I mean my mindset. I would love to go back into my marriage and be able to look at my husband without the things that happened in the past luring in the back of my mind or questioning what he's doing. E.g. If he brings me flowers, I would want to look at it as an act of love, kindness etc. and not as him trying to buy me off with flowers or whatever or wondering why now. If u understand what I'm trying to say.

So yes, the info on this thread has helped me and I'm thankful for you guys who was able to put your hearts into trying to save your marriage.

I hope that your wives can also see what I have seen with their husbands help. It's much easier hearing it from a stranger. After all, you have no reason to lie to me. It is clear that you really have changed and are still changing for the better not only for the marriage but for yourselves.

So, thank you and all the best with your continuos efforts. I know that you will succeed. We ladies should learn to trust our hearts a little more instead of our minds even if its for one last time. What do we have to lose? Like I said before, I'm at a place where no-one would be able to make me feel worthless again...

Thank you and goodluck to you all

Wow - everything you said just made your man the luckiest man on earth. I hope he realizes it.

I also wish that I could hear those very words from my wife. What a lucky man.

I wish my work and dedication to the rest of our lives in a state of happiness, respect, and love would undo her blindness. If only you could talk to her. It's all lip service from me. She doesn't believe me and that hurts me so bad to think that what I know I am going to be, she's not going to reap the benefits of what she always deserved. Now how long will it take for her to find it again? Starting over and playing all of those games again. Scary!

I am happy for your husband. I can't even imagine the joy in his heart when you tell him what he so needed to hear. I'll bet you will see a whole new life ahead for you if he is anything like me. If he really feels like I do about my wife and his dedication to making the rest of your life a pleasant one, full of fun love and dedication to you, you just made the best decision of your life!

God luck to the both of you!

Signed,
envious!

Thank you hubiscous..

I would never have realised that the changes might be real without your help.

If I can give you any advice,this is from my perspective, don't give up. My main reason for leaving was a sudden realisation that I don't have to be dependant on my husband. He always made me feel as if my whole existence would stop without him. Hence the verbal attacks.

When i moved out this time, I did not go to my parents like in the past, I rented a place of my own. You cannot believe how independant and great i feel. I needed that. It gave me a sense of self worth.

I'm not saying that is the same situation with you but, i do think that your wife maybe just need some time. Give it to her. I was ready to file for a divorce, and now I've changed my mind with you and everyone else on this forums help. I dont know your relationship with your wife, you said you guys are civil,which is great, maybe you can suggest she goes on this forum.

I went on numerous forums until I found this one because i was very confused. I think your wife too is still confused. It cant be that easy to walk away from someone you spent almost half your life with. She might still be bitter and angry, just like me, but I looked at my situation with an open mind. I am not ready to start a life with someone new until I can honestly say to myself that i have given it my all.

Please understand, I neva said I did not do anything wrong in my marriage, but verbal abuse is equal to physical abuse or having an alcoholic for a partner. They all hurt! My husband has shown me a side that I haven't seen since we've been courting. He seems to realise that respect requires respect.

I can only say that i owe it to myself and him to give our marriage a last chance. THERE IS NOTHING TO LOSE unless you have someone waiting....

I hope and pray that your wife will someday come around. Like I'm planning to say to my husband:It took drastic measures for BOTH of us to change. For me, it was finding myself (my worth like Alicia Keys says), and for him to see what his actions does to others.

Keep on trying but without pressure...

Good luck

scary1

I am so envious of you and your husband. Wow. What a dream come true for the both of you. I wish my wife would feel like you and see that I am changing into a man that I want. I want! I want to be everything she desires so that she will do just as you are going to do.

Please don't blame me if things don't work out the way it sounded like it would. I have only said that my desires and wants from myself and the changes that I am destined to make are REAL! REAL! cannot stress that enough. She gave me all of the tools to work with. She pointed out all of the things about me that she didn't like. All of my faults as a husband. Everything she missed out on. I have every tool in the bag to make the necessary changes and I'm going there! As fast as I can!

Lately though, I have been getting exausted at the thought of her leaving ayways despite my heart's determination. I know it will all be worth it in the end whether it's with her or not, but just so badly want it to be with her. Like you said, a large portion of my life was with her and I just can't imagine it any other way. How long were you gone? How long does it take to discover that you made the wrong choice and you want to go back? How long can I love her and wait for her? I really need to know cause it scares me that it will take too long.

I get sick at my stomach thinking of her with another man or me with another woman and then trying to get back together after something like that. She's been mine for so long. She's been my lover for so long. I can't stand the thought of her with another man. Will she come back before she meets "mr right"? Will I meet somebody too? That worries me too, simply because feel like I have to give what I am becomming to someone. Sombody needs what I'm going to be. My wife needed it for years. Now that I am working on all of my issues, I have no doubt that somebody will like me and maybe even love me again. That's what I really want. I want somebody to love me back. God, I hope it's her. I so want it to be her. Please Lord, show my wife the way back to me.

PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I love her with everything I have and all I have to give. If she would only see this is real, I would spend eternity showing her why I was right!

Oh my....

First off to everyone who has posted here, Thank you. This is a very good thread and one that will help so many of us. I have read through a lot of post, in a lot of forums over the past 2 years and sadly, good solid threads like this one are hard to come by. I have gained some new and much needed momentum from this thread. So thanks to all that have posted. Let's keep the momentum going for all of us.

hubiscous, I don't want you to feel like I am thread jacking you, but I would like to use you thread to share my thoughts with others that have posted her on yours and their situation. In my experience hearing and sharing from others about their situation, instead of just looking for answers for your own is greatly beneficial.

hubiscous, you have got to stop blaming yourself for what you have done in the past. You knew it was not proper behavior at the time, but you had no idea of the true impact it was having on your wife at the time. I am sure that if you did know how hurtful it was being you would have never done or acted in those ways. You can not change the past, so don't dwell on it or beat yourself up over it. Your focus needs to be on the now, which will lead you to a better future. I like you and others here, had a marriage of 15 years full of anger, verbal abuse, neglect, and belittlement. So, I to know how big off a an [censored] or jerk you feel like now and how stupid it makes you feel to think that you hurt the person you love the most in such ways. But, we can not change what was, so let's move on to what can be.

One thing that I see posted by most of the males that have responded here, is the topic of anger. For me anger, my own anger, was the key or biggest factor for the failure of my marriage. If anyone reading this has issues with anger, no matter how minute, you need to get it in check before you will have any chance in hell of having a healthy relationship with your current or if be, future companion. For years (decades), in my own life, I blamed others around me for my own un-happiness. About 1 1/2 years ago, six months after I was told by my wife that she was not attracted to me and wanted out. I truly started to look at myself and not just look at what I needed to do to try to fix my marriage. I was to busy running around in utter confusion trying to figure out where we went wrong and trying desperately to fix our marriage, but not trying to fix me. I came to the realization that I was not a happy person. Hard to make others happy, when you are not happy. But, more importantly, I realized that I was not happy, because I was an angry person. Everything bugged me, little things, stupid things. It was like a light went on. It was not right for such small, stupid little things to upset me. So I went to the book store and picked up 2-4 books on anger. WOW!!! Was I surprised at what I read. I gained a whole new understanding on what anger is and how it can control and consume a person. And controlling and consuming me was exactly what it was doing to me and my life. Understanding what anger is and working on gaining control over it has truly changed my life. Learn about anger may not have saved my marriage in time, but it has definetly changed me and made my whole situation a whole lot easier to deal with and manage. I can honestly say things would be 1000 times worse fro me and my relationship with my XW if I had not made the strides I have with my inner anger. I still have a ways to go, but I am so greatful on the progress I have made. Sorry, I am rambling on here, but I just want those of you that have anger issues to understand that it is like a disease. It is crippling to you and those around you and until you get it in check, nothing you do or no matter how hard you try, you will never be happy, nor will you have a happy relationship with anyone.

hubiscous, back to you. You repeatedly comment about the mistake your wife is making and about the strides and changes you are making and that she is blinded or a fool for not seeing them and for wanting to walk away for things. But, put yourself in her shoes for a second. I am sure she sees your efforts and she appreciates them. You have got to understand WE can not repair years and years of damage that we have caused our wives in just a few short weeks, months or sometimes even years. They need time to heal. They need to time to see we are sincere and real. They need time to trust us again. She is doing what she feels is right to protect her own well being, as you are doing what you feel is right for your own. Focus on you and making changes to make you a better person, that is what she needs to see and that is what will make her re-evaluate what she thinks she needs for herself. Only when we detach and finally, truly work on ourselves, will our wives start to truly see what great husbands we can and want to be. My ex-wife, like yours is stubborn and it will take extra time and effort on my part (just as it will for you) to prove to her that I am and will continue to become a better man/person.

Duke82 your post made me proud. You hit it on the head 100%. We have got to work and focus on ourselves, first and for most. I am so pleased that your wife is back under your roof with you. Make us proud and do what is right by being the man and husband she wants and needs you to be. Get that anger in check first and for most. Once you do, everything else seems simple in comparison.

scary1 I am so greatful that you are here and posting your experiences here with us. It is so helpful for us to hear the other side of the story. There are plenty of people here that can relate to what we as the LBS is going through or experiencing, but to hear from the WAS their POV is invaluable. Your post have really hit home with me. I consider myself to be a manly man and do not tear up very easy, but when I read your post I did. They struck a cord with me. Your words concerning your 11.5 years of abuse and degrading behavior, could just as easily been written by my XW as by you. I see so much of what I have put my wife through, when I read your words. Me and your H are very similar in how we have treated our wives. On behalf of all us ignorant, angry males I am truly sorry that you have been treated by one of us, in the way your were. Your husband is most likely not a bad guy, he is just using you as a avenue to deal with his own demons. That is what I had done to my wife for 15 years. I took out my own inner anger on her. I degraded her to make myself feel better. When the truth was I did not need to do that to feel better about myself. I knew I was a good person, but my anger was keeping it pushed aside. My anger was controlling me and my happiness. I think your head is the right place. Your H can and will change for the better, but as you have posted (and I am glad to see) is that it is going to take time. DO NOT rush back into things, before the time is right. You need time to heal and experience a bit of independence and you H needs time to put some reins on his demons. He is a lucky man. Many of us guys here wish for another chance like you are thinking of giving him. But, he needs to prove to you that he is worthy of having you in his life. If you need me to give him a 2X4 upside the head, you just tell me when and how to reach him. I wish you all the best and I your post have given me hope. I hope that someday soon, with my continued sincere efforts to make myself a better me, that I will one day be back in the arms of the women I love.


I hope I did not ramble to much here and that my words and what I have experienced with my own trials and tribulations can help out others here. Please keep the post in this thread coming. Best wishes to all here. I am pulling for you and I am here if you need me.

Nugget

I too would like to thanks al of the guys in this thread for stepping up and admitting their faults. It's also nice to se that none of us are blaming the wife or anyone else but ourselves. It's just proof to me and SCARY1 that all guys aren't the same. There are some that are sincere and are not just in a relationship for sex and other wrong reasons. There are men, men just like us that do have love for their woman, we just don't know the right way to love until it's too late. However, like many of you have said, it's never too late. Maybe too late for the current wife, but never too late to make changes in ourselves that will carry on to other relationships and insure them not to fail because of us.

Even though my efforts at showing change and expressing the seriousness of my desire for change to her has not changed her mind, I will do as I promised and some day she will see. But my wife brought up a very valid point and I'm glad that she did. She said that if she had cheated on me several times over the years and then told me she would never do it again, I'd be numb to that and refuse to believe it. How long does it take to mend 15 years of verbal and emotional abuse? Well, you can't mend it at all. It will take 2 to forgive but not forget. I've forgiven her for the things she has done to hurt me and it is the only way to move forward and change myself. I have no hate in my heart which makes it easier to change my heart. However, she still hangs on to the past and she always had. I can't change that, only she can. I can only change me, and I will. I can already feel progress in myself and look forward to my weekly therapy like I'm going to Disney as a child! It's like a breath of fresh air every time I go.

We're going on a date Friday night unless she changes her mind. And I am SO excited! I have convinced her that love during divorce is not such a bad thing. But I also want her to have what she wants. She wants out on her own to see what it's like and if I would actually change her mind to stay, then the wonder of what it would have been like would ride on her shoulders forever and the chance of this coming up again, I can't handle. So I'm letting her go but hanging on to hope. I will not give up on myself! Even after she leaves. Somebody will want what she wanted but didn't get. Somebody will. I hope it's my wife, but the reality is, "Prince Charming" might just take her away from me while we're separted, paint the pretty picture of how wonderful he is and sweep her off her feet before she gets to see the new me. I fear that something awful.

I am scared, but I am staying strong. Showing her my progress just might set in, I don't know. I can only hope and pray.

hubiscous I love your frame of mind. You seem to be understanding and progressing very quickly. I wish I would have pulled my head out a lot sooner. Let her be free and have her space and time. And you work on you. You will be amazed how much time she will want to spend with you and how she will see you, when you stop focusing on your failed R and focus on making changes in you for you.

hubiscous,

Just checking in to see how everyone is doing. Sounds like you have made some good progress already. Just remember not to push her at all. My wife just wanted a "friend" when we hung out. I kept pushing, and it delayed the whole process and eventually pushed her almost too far. Remember the guy your wife fell in love with? Well, be that guy. The first time that my wife and I went out, she got so mad that I offered to pay. So, we split up the bill. Even that was too pushy for her. The things that really helped me, while talking/seeing my wife, were the small things. Ask her how she is doing, let her know you still care. Don't ask for her back, look strong. Another thing my wife hated, was me telling her "I love you" all of the time. We are starting to say it more, and we actually feel it now. I kept telling her that I loved her, and she wouldn't say it back, and that killed me inside. So, in other words, don't put yourself in a position to do any more damage to her our yourself.
You can use that in your anger problems as well. I am learing to avoid situations that triggered my outbursts. So far so good. For example, bringing stress from work home was a big problem for me, so now, as soon as I get home, I go out back and work in my garden and mess with the dogs before I go inside. Another issue we had was bills, we aren't or never were in financial trouble, but she always did the bills and I never knew how much money we had. So now, we do the bills together so we are both on the same page.
My wife told me last night that when she left, she thought I was "unfixable". I am far from being "fixed", but I have shown her enough for her to put some trust back in me. I am being tested daily. We took my son to the doctor and he cried for an hour and a half straight. The "old" me would have been pretty ticked off and wouldn't have been able to handle it, but I stepped up and took control. I held my son the entire time and comforted him. Me trying to comfort him actually calmed me down.
Also, once you get your foot in the door, the path to recovery is just as hard, if not harder. Whether she admits it or not, you are constantly being tested. Don't blow any opportunities to shine. I thought that I could never live knowing that my wife could be with another man, but I realized my love for her is unconditional and you should feel the same way. I am sure you do. I don't agree with her every being with someone else, but if she ever chose that, my feelings for her would never change. I expect nothing from my wife in return anymore. So, everything she "gives" makes me so much happier. The glass can either be half empty or half full. Take a step back and decide which way you want to see it being. Good luck.

Yes,

The "I Love You" thing really hurts a lot. I'm starting to see what you mean about that. It's just so hard not to remind her that I DO love her. It's not that doesn't believe me, just have to say it cause I feel it! I gotta say what I feel. aybe you're right. should hold back my feelings if it helps. I'm just having a heck of a time with this. I just don't know how to act. I try to be nice and that doesn't do anything. So I try to be nicer and that's not working either.

So I just have to let her go? Giveup? That's hard to do. How do I let go of the mistake she is making? How do I let the love of my life walk out on a future full of love and respect? Just how can I do that?

You say I have to be strong, and I am somewhat, but everytime I think of letting her go, I get weak. How can it work out if I let her go? How will she know I need her if I don't tell her? You make sense, I'm just really scared!

I know what you're saying is probably all very true. I just hope she'll come back to me. How will she see that I really did change? Will she see it before the man in a mask sweeps her off her feet? They will all seem like prince charming at first. We all do. Then years later he's in therapy making changes to himself because he wasn't what she thought he was. Back to square one. When this man is going to be just that in just a few months of therapy and desire. Desire to be what she missed out on.

How does all of this play out for the better?
I'm confused!

You do have to let her go a bit, but no means do you have to give up. You need to detach. Visit this link to learn what it means to detach and why it is important. It helped me to detach and only after I detached could I function with a clear unclouded mind. http://www.coping.org/control/detach.htm


To her she is not making a mistake. She is doing what is best for her. She does not see a future full of love in respect. All she sees is the past of dis-respect and abuse. You have got to show her that you can provide her with the love and respect that you speak of until then it is only you dream and wish not hers.

You never get over being scared or wondering what if. I have been at this for 2 years and I still get scared and wonder what if. If only gets easier with the more your learn and the more you put what you have learned into practice.

There is no reason you can not be the man, the prince charming to sweep her off her feet. You did it once you can do it again. PMA

There is no guarantee that it will, but don't you want to do all you can to see that it does.

Ok - so I let her go. What if she thinks I gave up because I let her go? Then she'll think I'm a failure because I let her go? Will she think that I didn't try hard enough? Will she look at me like I gave up on her and that I want somebody else? Cause I don't want anyone else. That thought sickens me!

Her not seing that leaving is a mistake is what hurts. So she sees later down the road that she made a mistake. Do I want to set myself up again for all of this pain I'm in? Will I take her back? I can't answer that. Why can't I say for sure that I'll take her back? Why wouldn't I?

We're supposed to go on a date tomorrow night and I have no idea how to act. Do I act like we've been lovers for 15 years? Well, I better not I'd guess. Cause we havn't been. The first 3 years were good. The first date was AWESOME! And we didn't really do anything but sit and talk on a set of stairs.

She did warn me that I better not expect lovey dubby from her and Lord knows I don't. But she's been so cold to my efforts. I sneak in a little snack in her purse and she hasn't said a word about it. I don't know why. I really shouldn't worry about that I suppose. I suppose I should have done things like that years ago. I suppose I deserve this pain! Yeah - I guess I do.

I spent the entire day today thinking of other solutions that could ease her mind of us. I found a brand new house for 149,000 and we have exactly that in equity in our home. We could live in a new house 1200 a month free! Sell a bunch of stuff like my tractor and pay off credit cards. We could get so low in debt that she could even stay home. Then she would have all day to do the things she dreads doing at night when she gets home. Life could be simplified by doing something like this. Divorce is so complicated and all your assets and achievements go to the lawyers!

I like my idea but she still needs to "find herself". What does that mean? Why would she choose single parenting, being broke all of the time, live in a apartment for $550-600 a month, be without her kids when I have them, try to "raise" another man (she calls it) over a simple life with a simple plan. She could still pack up and leave any time she thinks I never changed! 15 years have gone by, what's a few months compared to 15 years. In only a few months she would be able to tell if I changed at all. In just a few months, I will have made so much progress. I know I will! I hate me. How could anyone love that? I want to be a better man for everyone in my life. It's not going to be that hard considering that I already know my faults. It's not like I'm throwing myself at a therapist and saying figure me out and fix it! I'm pouring it all out on the table and already learning how to make some adjustments to myself. All voluntarily. Nobody is forcing me to do this!

I've got to get this done. But I feel time is not on my side at all. And even if it is, I still keep hearing, I gotta find myself. This tells me that no matter what I do, I can't stop it. How do I cope with the idea that she IS walking out on "prince charming"? But just doesn't know it.

Here is my 2X4 to your head. Get of your high horse with all this BS about her walking out on prince charming. OBVIOUSLY you have not been prince charming for the past 12 years or so. So why in the heck do you think you are now. Because all of the sudden over the past few months you have decided or realized that you have been an a$$ and you are desperately trying to change that. You spent the last 12 years or more, killing the prince charming she though she married. To her she is walking away from the mean controlling troll under the bridge. I have already told you twice and here I am going to tell you again. You need to understand she does not view your relationship the same way you do. You see that you have made a few changes and you think that you are her happily ever after and she is a fool for even thinking of leaving you. You my friend are a fool and need to get that thought out of your head. She sees you as the enemy, BECAUSE YOU HAVE BEEN FOR YEARS!!! SHE IS DONE WITH BEING TREATED THE WAY YOU HAVE TREATED HER!!! If she had treated you in the same way would you be walking or staying put??? Put yourself in her shoes for the past 12 years. What kind of life do you see??? You yourself said that you have been controlling, rude, angry etc. You expect her to forget all that in a blink of an eye just because you feel bad for yourself and you are scared you are going to lose her. Oh if it was only so simple. Well brother, it is not. She has suffered through your sh*t for years and now it is time for you to suffer a bit yourself. For how long??? Well that has a whole heck of a lot to do with you and your growth and maturity.

You spent all day trying to come up with a solution to you martial issues and the answers that you came up with was to try to by her love with a new house and paying of the credit card bills. Brother if you think that is the solution, you need to stop everything you are doing RIGHT NOW and refocus. Trust me and I mean trust me a new house is not going to make her ran back into your arms. In what story have you read that prince charming gets the princess by buying her a house?

As far as her living in a dump for $500-600 a month and being a single mom. Well look at it this way. She views it as a heck of a lot better then staying with you. What does that tell you about how she views things??? Once again you see what you have to offer as roses, she sees it as fertilizer (the natural kind). You need to realize this and stop with the "I have change so much she is going to be sorry. She will see someday what she is missing" attitude. That day may come, but it sure is not today. You have to repair a whole lot of damage that you have caused her, before she sees you with any kind of bright light over your head. So you can either sit by feeling sorry for yourself and thinking she is making a mistake or get of your prince charming throne and put in some real effort and leg work.

On a softer note. As far as the date goes, focus on this one simple thought. NO EXPECTATIONS!!! Do not expect things to be comfortable, do not expect her to fall all over you. EXPECT nothing. Just go out and show her a casual FUN time.

Sorry if I am too in your face or saying anything you do not want to hear. I am not here to be your friend I am here to help you out. Because I have already been where you are and I already made the mistakes you are trying to make. Learn from my mistakes, because I have already been there done that. Sh*t I didn't even get a t-shirt out of it.

First - your response has not upset me a bit and I have nothing but respect for your continued support and your returning to my thread time after time. I see you have nothing but good intent to help men in your shoes. Thank you!

No I am not prince charming. I was referring to the future me. I know I am not prince charming now. But I know I want to be. Maybe I should have been a little clearer about that. I know that the dozen roses, cooking dinners, dishes, laundry, cleaning, sneaking notes and special things in her purse, taping notes to her cell phone, listening to her about her day and looking in her eyes when I do is has not repaired the damage that has been done over the years. You're right. I am her enemy.

Over the money thing. She worries like you just wouldn't believe about money. We live in a brand new house now. It's 3 years old. We built it together. It's 3800 sqaure feet 4br 3 1/2 bath and is almost finished. My intent with the other house was a scale-down from what we have now. Wanting to sell all of my things that makes her worry about money and buying another house with cash from our current equity was only another sacrifice that I am willing to make for her. Anything I can think of to eleviate her worries and eliminate any future worries about me is all I'm after. I know money doesn't buy love and I had nothing but good intentions with this idea. Get the money worries eliminated, fix myself, and then she'll be happy. That's what I was thinking. I thought my willingness to make these sacrifices would show her how serious I am about pleasing her.

I feel improvements in myself every time I go to my therapist. I went last night again for my weekly visit. I can't wait until the next time. It's like waiting for Christmas at 6 years old. I feel like a little boy that can't sleep on Christmas Eve. I have so much excitement in me of what's to come for my personality and the gift of giving myself to her when I find the right ways to do it. Every visit to my therapist seems so short. The hour just flies by. Last night I begged her to let me stay for another half hour and I did. It kept me from having dinner with my family and going to the grocery store with them but I got to work on me some more.

Just so you know, your reply to me was taken like a man! Taken as a wake up call too! Please stay!

When I get to where I'm going, AND I WILL - I will feel just like you and carry a 2x4 with me to hit the men out there like me with. I already find myself wanting to do that. I took my 2 kids to Bob Evans the other night. Sitting catty-corner from me was a younger family of 4. A very nice looking woman with her husband and 2 little girls. I wanted so bad to tell him to look at her and imagine her gone. Find out what she really needs and make sure you give it to her or your table will look like mine. But I didn't. I think about that guy every day and regret not saying something to him. Just, the world we live in is full of freaks and I didn't want to scare him.

On our date (I hope she doesn't change her mind) I will make my best effort to be a good boy! I'll keep you posted on how things go.

Thanks a million for being here for me! I have nobody here with me to talk to or hold. If I could, I would reach through this computer and hug you all! Thank you so much! Please stay and help me! This thing is far from over!

Nugget,

I am wondering what went wrong in your relationship? You sure know the situation pretty well. Your reply to Hubiscous was exactly my thoughts. This shows that you have come quite a long way.

I am not here to sit on my high horse and say yay or nay to anyone, but this is a thread that helps me tremendously.

Hubiscous, the advise Nugget and all the others are giving you are spot on. Do not rush things and do not expect anything. My situation on the other hand has left me all confused. I stated that I planned to reconcile with my husband but last night I am not that sure.

You should be careful what you say coz people listen. Me and my husband went out on a date last night and i was about to tell him that I am thinking of coming home round about the end of the month. But, before i could give him this news, he mentions that he thought about our situation and he feels that i am acting as if I am the victim.... Further, he says that he cannot change and be something that he's not. WOW!

I did not say anything, I just left him to ramble on. He says in the same breath that he has learned alot from this experience and that this time we would be able to work through our problems like two adults.

At this point I'm thinking: "Nothing has changed". He was just pretending before and it's difficult to keep up the pretence all the time. When I confronted him about what he said, he stated that i misunderstood. What about not changing did I not understand?

So my point, I knew that his change was still in the beginning stages and there is still a long way to go, but a statement like that has left a bitter taste in my mouth. Does this mean that once I'm back home we'll just pick up where we left it the last time?

I was willing to take that chance but now I have a whole new outlook on our relationship. The conclusion I came to is that I have to trust my instincts and not go home, maybe never.

PLEASE, don't take this the wrong way, I am not saying that any of you are not being true but I just want to highlight that it's difficult, like nugget said, for us to trust again. My husband really doesn't give me a reason to trust him.

I liked what Nugget said:"You need to realize this and stop with the "I have change so much she is going to be sorry. She will see someday what she is missing" attitude. That day may come, but it sure is not today. You have to repair a whole lot of damage that you have caused her, before she sees you with any kind of bright light over your head.

YOU CANNOT MISS SOMETHING YOU'VE NEVER HAD!

We as women also have our pride, and me personally have come to a point where I was once bitten and twice shy (or something like that I had so much faith that it will work out this time but clearly not - and this time it ended before we could start again.
Luckily for me, I have grown stronger and I had no teary eyed breakdown. I'm past that, have done that for 11 years. It had to stop someday right?

My advice to you, for now, be her friend, Love comes naturally.

Good luck with your date hubiscous and all the best for the future...

hubiscous I now you mean well and you think these things are acts of kind gesture, but they are actually poison. Your wife views them as acts of desperation and pursuing on your part. Ok ok I know your are going into to panic right now. You are saying to yourself what the heck is this guy thinking. If I do not shower my wife with love and attention and I give her space, she is going to think I am giving up and I am the one walking away. The exact opposite is true. She needs her space and she is asking you for it. She will gain 100 times more respect from you if you give her the space she is requesting then she will from a thousand gifts.

There are two main reason that a women leave a relationship. Boredom and lack of respect. The ones that suffer from boredom are those who usual (not always but more often then not) search out the company of another man. scary1 correct me if I am wrong on the following. The ones that feel a lack of respect, like your wife, my wife and also scary1 leave because they are tired of feel disrespected. The dis-respect came from our outburst of anger, our constant belittled, our constant I know more then you attitude. Well our wives and scary1 finally gained the strength and courage to say enough of this. I can not take anymore. Now you have to understand that this decision they took to leave was not overnight. More often then not it took years. My my tells me it took her over 3 years. This was a huge leap for them. I may be one of the biggest decisions they have made in quite sometime. But, along with this decision came some much needed self respect. Something they have not felt for sometime, thanks to us a-holes. They are proud of their decision and they are proud that they are taking a stance. And I am proud of them also. I am very proud that my wife found the courage to stand up to me and look me in the face and say "I love you, but I am not in love with you. I have had enough. I do not like the way you treat me. I do not like to be belittled and put down. I am tired of you making me feel stupid when I am not. I do not want to be with you anymore." Yeah of course this was a sledgehammer to my head, but thank God it happened. If not then I would still be in my pretend perfect marriage. You know how a guy thinks. If the wife is not complaining then things are ok. And if she is complain then it just must be that time of the month. WE DO NOT KNOW HOW TO LISTEN. My have had been telling me for years that she did not like how I was acting towards her, but I never heard it. I was dumb and blind. Well I have heard it loud and clear now. And I have learned to take to heart anything my wife says. If she says give me space, I know she means give me space and give it to me now. What I am getting at is our wives and scary1 did not leave, because they were not being showered with gifts. They left because they were being disrespected. I order for them to even think about coming back to us, the have to feel like we respect them. We have broken our promise to them. The promise we made when we married them. The promise to LOVE & RESPECT until death do us part. We have to gain back their love and respect.

Ok so how do we gain back their love and respect? scary1 I hope you will chime in here and give us your input. You are waiting for the love and respect from you H. Here is what I have learned and what I am trying to put into practice in my life. First I had to understand what "love" is. Love is a feeling, it is an emotion. It is a deep feeling of connection or being involved with someone or something. It is a desire that we have to nurture and care for that something or someone. I lost that deep feeling of connection with my wife. I lost the desire to nurture and care for her. Instead I cultivated a need to destroy her. I did this through my anger, through my name calling, basically through my verbal abuse and constant degrading her. Why did I do this. Simple. It was to satisfy my own need to love myself more then my need to love her. I was not happy with myself and I used my attacks on her to make myself feel better. It was not until I discovered what was making me unhappy, that I could stop the attacks against her. My unhappiness stemmed directly from my anger. Once I learned what anger was and how to control it, instead of it controlling me. Everything changed. We have to show them that we love them. We have to build the deep connection with them. We have to make them feel cared for and nurtured. Not in a monetary or physical way. But, in a emotional and spiritual way. We have to build them back up since we are the ones that tore them down. "You look beautiful today" "I love the way you smile/laugh" "I love how you interact with our child" "I love how much you care for our child" "You are such a good daughter/sister, you family is lucky to have you" But, what you say to her has to be from the heart and you have to mean it sincerely. If not, she will see right through your BS.

Respect Definition

re·spect (ri spekt′)

transitive verb

1. to feel or show honor or esteem for; hold in high regard
2. to consider or treat with deference or dutiful regard
3. to show consideration for; avoid intruding upon or interfering with to respect others' privacy

I don't know about you hubicous, but when I read the definition of respect above I cringe. My stomach turns to knots. I have not show my wife honor or esteem, nor held her in high regard. I have not treated her with deference (respectful submission or yielding to the judgment, opinion, will, etc., of another). I have not show her consideration for her space, for her opinion, needs or spirituality. I have not shown my wife very much respect at all over the years. In fact I have gone out of my way to DIS-RESPECT her. I would be fool to think that she wants to be with me after the way I have treated and dis-respected her. I know I have so much repair to do. I can only wish that someday she will forgive me for all the damage I have caused her let alone even entertain the idea of coming back to me.

I am not a bad person. In fact I am a very kind and giving person. Even my ex-wife will tell you that. But, I let my anger and low self-esteem take over my personality and they controlled me. They caused me to destroy my marriage and they did their best to also destroy my wife. Thank God she got out. I remember my wife asking me several times "Why do you treat everyone else better then you treat me?" "Why will you drop everything to help out others, but when I ask for your help you tell me to figure it out or do it myself?" My answer on several occasion was "I don't know. Why do we hurt worst the ones we love most?" When I said that back then I did not grasp the full meaning of what I was saying, but at the time it sounded good. Today I do grasp why I did what I did and I know now "Why we hurt the ones we love the most" or at least why I did. Sub-consciously I knew in my heart that my wife loved me more then anyone else. I knew she would put up with me more then anyone else. I knew I need to vent/direct my anger somewhere and I knew she would be the one to stomach it the most. I knew that if I treated or dis-respected anyone else they way I was her, that they would not stand for it and they would tell my to get bent. But, because she loved and cared for me so much, she took it. And the more she took it the easier it became to give it to her. The more I gave it to her the more natural and frequent it became. Until finally it started to take it's toll on her and little by little it started to wear down her armor of love. Year after year her armor of love got thinner and thinner, until she finally started to feel the sting of my words. Once she could no long bare the pain any longer she wanted out. Her armor was gone and her heart was fatally wounded by my attacks.

hubicous the job before you and me is to win back the love and respect of our wives. The only way this can be done is on an emotional and spiritual level. When I speak of spiritual, I do not mean religious, but much deeper. Spiritual, as in we need to connect with their souls. A spiritual connection, so deep that it is only found between two people who deeply love, care and respect each other. This connect can not be bought through flowers, gifts or notes of "I love you". It has to be earned. It can only be earned though the changes we make. Through the way we speak. Through the words we use. And by how we act.

Pretty much the same that went wrong in yours. Your husband has done to you pretty much what I have done to my wife. Because of the similarities that our situation have I would like to discuss somethings with you on a more one to one basis if you would be willing. I think/hope we may be able to help each other a bit. If your interested shoot me an email to lovncela@yahoo.com.

Wow - word for word Nugget! Ditto -

I understand exactly what you're saying. Respect is free. Gifts cost money. Who needs gifts more than respect? Gifts are garbage that gets thrown away at a garage sale next year or eaten by the washing machine.

It's a little late to back out of the cards and gifts thing, but I'll stop now. Respect respect respect. I've been doing that too. Showing her I care. Listening really listening to her daily details. I know she shes it in my eyes. She has to, it's the first time she's ever seen my eyes when she talks to me.

I've done all of the damage to my wife that you have done to yours. It does make you feel like a terd once you actually realize what you've done doesn't it?

Before it was lip service, kiss make up and all is good. For a week! And the damge stays and more adds to it and tears her apart. Just like you've said Nugget.

I am serious about fixing me - ok? I am focusing HARD on it and am dedicated to it. I always get what I want. No matter what it is, I get it! All of the things I wanted before seem so useless now that I see the real me and what means most on my wants and needs list is to change this ignorant man I am. I feel good about what's coming. Feel like crap of what I was.

I can't wait to present the new me! I'm so anxious to be a real man! How exciting is it to know that others are going to want to be around yoy? WOW! That's exciting!

I saw my parents today and they saw the light in my eyes. They know I'm on fire and it really shocked them. Mom's been hearing it on the phone but to see it made her cry. She's been waiting a long time for this, just as my wife has. Man I can't wait! I'm really excited!

Look out world! Here I come!

No worries. I spent a far share on my spouse also when everything went south also, but then I learned that the gifts were doing more harm then good.


She will notice the difference. I have noticed the difference. When we used to talk I was the one looking away or continuing to watch TV or out the window, because I was nervous, uncomfortable or did not want to listen. Now when we talk, she is the one looking away, but not for the same reasons I was. She looks away, I believe, because she is not used to me actual paying attention and look at her in the eyes when she is speaking. She has stopped looking away for the most part now and it is amazing how you can feel connected to someone when you look them in the eyes during conversation.

Yeah it makes me feel like a real dirt bag. When I was typing to you earlier about respect and re-reading the definitions, I was getting sick to my stomach to think about how I have treated me wife and how she must have felt. How can I ever blame her for wanting out.

The biggest impact you can have the quicks way to earn respect is to kill those old harmful habits. As long as we continue to let the surface or repeat it is 2 step forward and 2 steps back. We have to put the reigns on those old destructive behaviors. They will notice. We will come face to face with them in similar past situation and they will expect us to blow up or show our old ugly selves, but we will surprise them and let the new us shine bright.

I truly do understand your excitement. I know exactly how you feel. Knowledge is power and it is what drives us. But, we have got to take it slow with our spouses. They do not share the same excitement as we do, in fact quite the opposite. They are quite skeptical or leery about our intentions and actions. We have got to proceed with patience and caution. It is going to take them time to heal and time for them to feel safe around us again.

People do see the changes. They see a different stride to your step and they see the changes in your demeanor, as does your wife. My wifes friends tell her what a nice guy I am. These are the same people who advised her to leave me. Now tell me that doesn't that piss her off. LOL

What a breath of fresh air!

love your post nugget! Funny there at the end!

Hey, the date went GREAT! Here's the details:

The kids are both with my parents camping so they're having a blast!

So we leave the house about 6:30 and head to town. I took her to a very nice restaurant on the river and we had AWESOME food! It was fantastic. We talked eachother's heads off on the 30 minute drive to town and we never shut up enough to eat all of our food!

So we packed it up and moved on back toward another section of town and stopped at a goofy golf. We played and laughed and truly enjoyed eachothers company like it was a first date. By the way, she kicked my a$$ by 3 strokes! And I'm proud to say it was legit! She really beat me! That's the first time in my life I've been beaten and feel good about it!

We then moved on to the highest point overlooking the 2 cities and sat on a wall looking over the two river towns and talked and smiled. Seing her smile makes me feel so warm inside. Was it me that made her smile? God, I can only pray it was me and not a fake smile. I think it was real - it sure looked like a real one.

Then we looked at some houses I've been pondering on and she kinda entertained the idea that it would probably be a decent move. Not sure what she really felt there.

Then I "took her back to her place". I kinda joked with her by asking what time she had to be home and she said 9:30, so I had her home by 9:15. Good boy right?

Here's the part you might not like Nugget but it got a HUGE smile outta her.

Her jacuzzi tub was full awaiting her a warm bath. Incense ready to light. On her pillow was a nightgown from VS. A bottle of VERY nice perfume, a rose, and a card.

I didn't lay a hand on her all night. It was tough to stay tough! Know what I mean? I left her alone to bask in her bath and went to "my room". She thanked me for a wonderful evening and that is that.

Stay tuned...

I am glad your date went well. You did good at restraining yourself and you made it just all about having fun.

YOUR RIGHT!!! I did not like that last part. Talk about putting pressure on her. OH MY GOSH!!!

Here is something I read today that I think you can benefit from also.

Let me give you idea of how men and women differ their thoughts on a sample date. Women have their own rating system that is totally different from guys. Men think: Okay. I bought her flowers - that's worth one point. I took her out to a nice diner - there's another point. I took her dancing afterward - that has to be worth another point. See how this all adds up so quickly in a guy's mind?

The same date from a woman's point of view is going to go something like this: He took me out on a date. He was attentive to me - that's worth a point. He didn't check out that beautiful waitress, even though she was sort of flirting with him - there's a BIG point. He referred back to something earlier in the conversation. That means he was actually listening to what I said - I'd give him 2 points for that one. I felt so relaxed and comfortable with him. He even made me laugh - that's another 2 points in my book. I actually feel as though I could trust him more, now that I'm getting to know him. He is definitely doing the right things to raise my interest level.
--Cory Wayne "How To Be A 3% Man".

The way yo a womens heart is not through gifts it is by connecting with her feelings and emotions.

I get it. It's making sense.

It got a nice big smile out of her. I didn't see any pressure in her eyes. She just wouldn't stop smiling. I saw a sincere smile that I LOVED! I see where I went wrong even though it felt so right.

I forgot to mention that in my card I wrote "These are simple gifts that expect nothing in return". She REALLY appreciated those words. And what I meant by those words goes VERY deep into the last 15 years. Let me explain. In the past, when I wanted something, I just did it! Then left her to figure out how we were going to afford it and make the payment. Here's some examples; boat, 4-wheeler, computers, motorcycle, and the list goes on and on. It was always about what I wanted and this time it's her turn. I did mention the "It's your turn". I now realize I messed up there too. That was another pressure thing.

But you see, I'm learning. I'm still in the very early stages of learning what buttons not to press and which ones to simply snip the wires from so they won't even work if I wanna press them.

When I reminded her that I expected nothing in return. Please don't take my intentions wrong, she thanked me for that. She was very relaxed there in her bed and we were reminissing our evening and how much fun it was; I asked her if there was anything else I could do to make her evening complete and she said YES - a backrub would be nice. I said why of course. What better way to close the evening for her but to remind her that it was all about her and not about me at all. Lying there in her nightgown she just got, she looked so beautiful, especially with that continuous smile of hers. So anyways, I rubbed her back and her arms and her legs and her rear. She was eating it up. She started making moves that signaled something else and I serviced her and she loved it like never before. And I mean that. She made moves I'd never seen!

It was really difficult not to do more but I had to prove the evening and my reasons for the evening were still all about her! I was a good boy and kept myself in check. But how can I resist and say no to something she wanted?

Having her thank me for a wonderful evening after all of that was such music to my ears. I made quite a few mistakes by your rulebook and I'm sure several others, but I just have to learn what they are and stick to my guns on those things. Please feel free to smack me with that 2x4 again after reading all of this. I'm sure there are several things that I could have done or not done. Pick me apart. I'm asking for it! Really! You seem to really know a lot about what's REALLY going on in her head right now. Me, I'm completely lost!

(my previous post was made while she was in her bath. she came to me and wanted to me in the bedroom to talk afterwards. Hence all of this being left out of my previous post. I was so excited to tell you how the date went that all of this I just posted transpired afterwards)

Today, We have a big day separate from eachother's day. My parents are in town for 10 days at a local campground. That;s where the kids are. I was to go over there this morning and hang out with them all day and the wife is going to her parents where her brother is in town to hang out there and do some things with him. My sister is coming in to to hang out with Mom and Dad at the trailer. All confusing huh! Anyways, I work Sunday and an appraiser is coming Monday to look at our house. She planned on her and the kids cleaning the house Sunday while I'm at work. It;s a HUGE job and to be honest, the kids really don't do that much compared to big people. So I suggested to her last night that I WILL be staying home today until the house is cleaned so that Sunday, she can relax on her day off. She really liked that I think. It;s continued efforts and continued acts of kindness and generosity that could be my saviour. I don't feel like I'm scoring points, I feel like doing these things from my heart. All of the things I've been doing around the house are simple to do. Takes no effort at all in my eyes. When love is behind it, it just doesn't feel like work!

That is GREAT that she reacted positively.

They guidelines, experiences or comments that I or others give are not written in stone. Everyones situation is different and everyone (us and our spouse) react and respond differently to different things. If you find that something your are doing is having a POSITIVE impact, even though you had read, heard or been told not to do them, then by all means do them. If you find them having a negative impact or her not responding they way you thought she would then stop doing them.

Well, bad news. I went out with my sister last night and while we were out, the wife called to see where I was. I felt guilty for being in a sports bar drinking a beer, but I was with my sister so I thought it was ok. I told her that I'd leave if it made her uncomfortable and she slipped in the "were separating so why would it matter" phrase and it again made my heart fall to my stomach. I asked her why she had to say that to me and she reminded me that I told her that I'd give her space. What happened to you agreeing to giving me my space?

Well, I am convinced now that she is EXTREMLY confused seems as how last night I spent the entire evening all up in her space and she loved every minute of it.

I think maybe she could be testing me and wanting the old me to come out to justify her leaving me. To make her feel better about the mistake down deep inide she's afraid she might be making. She still wants to go find herself, but I think she might be afraid that it's a mistake even though she's 99% dead set on it. Well, I have bad news for her. That 1% won't be filled up with me pushing her out. The old me is history! I will not let anything get between me and my goal of being a man. A man that ANY woman will soon desire. I will not live with myself knowing that I failed. She canot make me fail for her! I WILL NOT FAIL!

I spent most of the evening with my sister in a christian book store picking up a couple books to help me. One was the Gary Chapman 5 love languages and the other is about anger in a relationship and how to make it work FOR YOU. Forget the name. I ordered a workbook on anger as well and should have these both read by the time it comes in.

I'm starting to get used to the idea that she's already gone. But I'm getting even more used to the idea that I am far from gone. My heart has love in it dying to pour out to someone. Someone that will accept the new me as a sincere man with a passion for respect and trust to and from others.

I'm on a roller coaster here. But the ride eventually ends. Anybody wana ride with me and hold my hand through this. Nugget, you get shotgun, anyone else? Come on, help me out. Scary 1? Wanna go to? Hearing things from a woman's point of view here would really help me out! Please join me!

Hubiscous,

I know this might sound crazy but, you're spot on with the confused idea. That's exactly how I'm feeling.

Although you guys might be seperated, she's still your wife and you're still her husband! I am still concerned if my husband goes out... Not, the jealous concern, but wondering where he is and what he's doing, whether he's o.k etc. Also, could he be out enjoying himself while my heart is at war with my mind???


And yes, you are correct when you say she's testing you. I know i am constantly testing my husband. I would not like to make the same mistake. I am over the worst fears, walking out of my marriage was the hardest thing i ever had to do.

Like I said to my H the only guarantee i have at the moment is the fact that I am the only one i depend on for my happiness. Going back means, trusting someone else with your heart... And we've been there done that.

I know it's not fair to always be on the lookout for signs of the old you (my DH) etc. but it's something that we constantly think about. Oh yes, I too think that divorcing my husband might be the biggest mistake I might make, but what do I have to weigh it up against. Me being unhappy in a relationship vs me alone, almost happy, vs what hubby might or might not turn out to be?

The choice at the moment would be the 2nd and the only sure one. I'd rather be alone than be unhappy... Maybe were asking too much, I too need help, but this is a very confusing time. You guys, and by you i mean my husband is so sure of what he wants... In his eyes it's me. I would love to be that sure... This does not mean that i don't love him but look at it this way. You've always had a choice....

Firstly, it was your decision to act towards me the way you did.
You now made the choice that you are not prepared to let me go. You chose to make changes to your life now. All these choices were made to suit you.

I now, chose not to accept the treatment received. I am now the one having to make the choice if I want you in my life. Suddenly, you have to wake up and listen because now its MY CHOICE and only mine whether we would continue on this path together or seperately.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but this is not meant to be some power struggle. All I am saying is that for all these years I tried to put my family (DH) first on my priority list while I was somewhere on his. Just as you realised that you need to make some changes in your attitude,life etc. so did I.

Now back to you, hubiscous,

About finding one self, this is not just for the marriage but rather personal as well. The struggles i have, is that I did not speak up sooner. I should have let my husband know that his behaviour towards me was unacceptable but i was afraid it would lead to another argument. My thoughts about keeping the peace ate on my very soul. I realised this after 11 years. Now I'm on a path where I am building up confidence so that this will not happen again.

I don't think that the anger is directed at you but more towards ourselves. I would like to be able to speak up when I feel that I'm being treated wrongly in any situation not just my marriage. I have fallen into a whole where i have just accepted things and made up excuses for why i was treated badly.

I don't think your wife wants you to fail... Far from it. I would like my husband to become the best person he can be. Not for me but for himself.

From what I've read in your previous threads regarding your "date" with your wife, she still loves you that is clear. She might even have wanted you to take it further (this is just my opinion), but I think you made the right decision. If I was in her shoes and something did happen my thought would have been: "Oh so, it's all about his needs again, the wining and dining was just a build up to what he really wants." You are still the man of her dreams I know mine is...

I am busy healing (not from the seperation, that still hurts like hell), but I am thinking about my life alone as well as what it would be if I went back. That's why its so tough. You might think that you are working hard to change and that because of that you should be given another chance. You need to remember without sufficient time things could actually turn out worst.

I considered moving back home with my DH but like I said,I saw bits and pieces of the old guy and I got scared ! Now I am right back where I started, contemplating. I am not expecting him to wait for me forever for a decision but I will also not be bullied into one. My DH also said that I have already made a decision to leave him and I'm just stringing him along..that is so not true. But because he has made a "drastic change" for the better, i should just forget everything and move on...

If I was not taking my marriage seriously, I would have been out enjoying myself maybe even dating and he would have had divorce papers etc.

So be a bit more patient and I do think that you on the right path. Do not concern yourself about what she's thinking, this will only frustrate you. The decision is no longer in your hands. You've shown her your cards (You still want her), it's now her turn. Maybe I'm being biased but its not a decision that can be made overnight.

If she decides she wants to move on without you, then you have grown into someone very special and you will know how to handle yourself with future relationships. See it as a win-win situation. You are turning into a very "likeable" person (for lack of a better word ) and you will be able to deal with any situation calmly etc. I am sure you did not change for her, this is for yourself right?

We all get disappointed sometimes but we get over it eventually.It depends on whether you want to see the glass half full or half empty....

Sorry if I'm rambling but my head too is still a mess...

Thank you Scary1 for sticking around to help me in this thread.

It's brings me pleasure to hear what a woman other than mine is thinking and it does help. I've never been through anything like this in my life. The pain is so unbearable. My eyes are dry. My shirt is soaking wet. My throat is killing me. My nerves are shot. My ulcerative colitis is starting to flare up and my head is thinking things I've never imagined I could think.

Last night I was once again reminded by her that there was nothing I could do to stop this. I fell apart worse than I ever have before. The reality is setting in. I wanted to take a walk. So I did. To somewhere I should not have. A Bridge. I just wanted to look at the water and the boats and think. My thoughts turned against me and scared the crap out of me. I called my therapist at 10pm from that walkway and told her I had to see her, I had to talk to someone because I just scared myself. She called the local authorities freaking out. I ended up at the local E.R. embarassed as hell. Everything was good after she evaluated my messed up head and determined that I was not a danger to myself that I just wanted to take a walk. I tried to tell her that but they are trained to react when they hear someone is on a bridge! Can't say I blame her. So anyways, I went to my parents and hung our until 1am trying to sort out what the heck just happened to me. It was simple. I CAN NOT imagine life without the one I love.

You know, we're not all the same. Some people do change, and to prove it let me tell you a story. My wife actually went to one of my sessions and spilled her guts about how she felt about me. She told my therapist that how much she has done to change me. My therapist got a big kick out of that and was interested to hear how she did such a thing. She told her well, he was self employed and I told him to get a job or I'm leaving. Well, I got a job and she stayed so she thought she changed me, when the truth is, I ELECTED to get a job. I could have stayed self employed and packed her bags for her, but I CHOSE to get a job! I made the change! I made the change for the one I love.

Now that brings me to this...I have voluntarily enrolled in counceling, voluntarily ordered these books, voluntarily went to Christian books stores to buy the 5 Love Languages, and am VOLUNTARILY changing myself into what she would desire. Nobody is making me do this but me. So it is for me as you questioned, so your answer is yes, it's for me. However, my ultimatum was very clear and the consequences woke me up.

I am volunteering to be a man. Volunteering my heart to belong to my wife for the next 15 years and the next 15 and the next 15. My soul belongs to her. But let me tell you, I have let go of ALL of the hurt she has caused me because I love her. She needs to let go and I suggest that you do the same, and open yourself up to the idea that this could be real. If it's real, what a glorious thing to do. Keep that guard up at first but you have to be unbiased to even see a change. You can't just sit there expecting the worst and not paying attention to the new.

It's no more fair to us than the way we treated you. No disrespect, but if you love him and he loves you. What's the big deal? Just one more chance? have you heard that? I know my wife has. I mean one more chance. Stay with me, hold my hand through this and I'll hold yours. If I screw up, then leave. What's 2 months compared to 15 or 11 years? Not a whole lot to loose.

There are millions of women on this earth. Plenty right around the corner. Why are we so afraid to loose you when there's several that would want us?

Because WE LOVE YOU!

update:

Her parents had a talk with her last night. Not sure what happened but she didn't want to talk about it last night. Just wanted to talk about the divorce.

As it seems, and as I suspected, she wants to date. While I'm in Cleveland Clinic this winter getting my colon removed, she'll be dating. Between now and then, she wants to be friends. She wants to see my improvements. Time is on my side big time. Now, how do I get better at this point knowing that she wants to date while I'm laying horizontal with a scalpel in me? She clearly has no love for me at all anymore. I have nothing BUT love for her.

Does anyone feel my pain? How do I battle with this and come out victorious. How do I settle with the fact that 15 years and 2 beautiful children later, she wants to date? She wants a divorce to make her date legal. Wow! How huge is this?

Scary1 - help me stay in check here. I'm loosing it! Please help me understand why she's choosing this path of destruction over the new me and the children's sanity. H E L P M E !

NUGGET! WHERE DID YOU GO???? BRING YOUR 2x4 BACK PLEASE!!!!!!! HELP ME!!!!!!!!!!!!

How do I survive this major operation without her by my side. How do I endure the pain of recovery without the one I love?

HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hibiscous,

Breathe, be still in yourself. Find a calm place and think on it. Breathe. There is a thread on here called be still, find it and read it. I know its hard, I know your panic, but breathe, and find yourself.

[[[hibiscous]]]

WOW !

This is a bit of a surprise. Is she really ready for dating?

If that is the case then the only thing I can say is that she needs to be honest with you. Not in any one of your threads did I see that you say she doesn't love you anymore. (Maybe I missed it). If she did mention it, and meant it honestly, i can then only say that you will be fighting a losing battle.

For yourself, I can only say that your health is important and you have to think about your actions for your childrens sake. I know it's painful but unfortunately you cannot make someone love you.

Your wife might be searching for something she hasn't found yet.
Unfortunately it's in the wrong place. At the moment for me, it's better the devil you know than the one you don't.

Hubs, you have to be strong. This is not the end of the road for you. You just have to take a different path. Love doesn't just lie down and die when you want it too. You need to make peace with her decision for now. I'm thinking that she will come around sometime unless she has been emotionally unattached for a long time.

Victory is already yours, you've overcome the battle to change for the better !

Please don't take this the wrong way, but do you know who she's dating. Is this new or was something happening before. Forgive me if I am wrong, but I smell a rat...

You need to be strong for yourself and your kids. This is her loss. Unfortunately we don't have the power to change someones feelings but we have the power to control our own feelings. Why don't you try to channel your energy into something else, to temporarily take your mind of things. Spend more time with your kids, instead of trying to solve this on your own. The more you occupied the less time you will have to dwell on this.

My heart breaks for you but I also know that you will overcome this. In some of your previous posts you said that you were preparing yourself for a life without her. Now is the time to focus on that... If she comes back she will be gaining much more than she ever bargained for...or maybe regret that she didn't take more time to make her decision.

As for myself, I have seen the changes my husband made and I am feeling better everyday. I have decided to work on the "testing" idea and might just be going home soon. Unfortunately I'm only human, and more than often I convince myself that it could be the biggest mistake I make. Like I said before, my hearts in turmoil.

Good luck

The easy way sure sounds nicer to me. Just a couple months and she could see the new me on a continuous basis. Scary1, I really need to talk to you. I want to do everything right without anything seeming like an act or doing something wrong. I HAVE to do all I can, the right way, to keep this woman. She is my world! She is my life. She is my heart and soul. I miss her already and she isn't even gone. I have to talk to a woman and see what she needs to see. If I could and if you are willing, would you email me a way to call you to talk, on my dime? I'm not crazy Scary1, just crazy about my wife. Please. If not, I understand. I am completely lost. I need to hear a woman's voice that feels like she does and tell me what not to do or what to do right.

sponse26@essracing.com if you please


About the dating. She says there is nobody else and nobody in particular on her mind, and she does not know where she will met this guy, but I'm with you. There's something fishy. I can't blame her though, look at what I never gave her after 2 years. She's missing what she is searching for.

I am strong. Strong for her. But without her, I am weak!

hub,

You really need to slow down and think about things. I know exactly how you are feeling, but tomorrow will come, and the next day and the next. You will have good days and bad days, but you'll get through. Don't worry about the future so much as you can't fix that all at once.

I know you've been working on you, keep doing that. You'll find you like yourself better and though you'll still miss your wife, you won't need her quite so much. Your wife will notice the changes, she'll be skeptical, but she'll notice. That's why you have to do it for yourself, not her.

And stop beating yourself up over the past. You need to forgive yourself and move on if you expect her to do the same.

IIRC, you guys haven't been separated that long. It took my wife a month before she started getting scared at all about the reality of the situation. Give it some time. Even though she's talking about dating, saying it and doing it are very different. In a way, that's good as she isn't content by herself right now. She doesn't see you as the solution, but the chances of her being comfortable with someone else right now is pretty low, I would think.

As for your surgery, there's a good chance that that could open up her feelings for you. If there's any guilt in her, it will be strongest then. Heck, I've sometimes wondered if there was someone way I could end up in the hospital just so that my wife would be conflicted.

Can't say things will work out for you, but you have to be patient and let it play out some. You don't want things to fall apart further because you didn't give it time.

As for contacting other women, be careful about that. I did the same thing awhile back, and although nothing happened, I realized I was mostly trying to replace what I was missing from my wife, even though all I did was talk about her. I can't say that it helped any. It's unfortunate that guys aren't good in these kind of situation, but stick to guy friends as much as you can.

Edit: Think of it this way, would you want your wife befriending a guy in order to help her deal with what she's going through?

I'm trying hard to slow down, but I only would want to confide in Scary1 to get the female perspective of what mistakes I am about to make. That way, I don't make them and have to type on here all of the things not to do! hehe

Just hearing the right and wrong things from Scary1 seems like the best answer for calming me down as you are asking of me. I guess a phone call might be a little too much to ask, but I has an idea I wanted to run by her without posting cause I think the XWTB may be watching. Not for sure. Maybe I seemed a little creepy, if I did sorry Scary1. I'm not creepy! lol Just getting lost.

As for other women.... Y U C K ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !

Get real - I have no interest in anything but my wife. The thought of a woman even looking at me with any emotion scares the crap out of me. I've never hit a woman in my life, but if a woman came on to me right now, I'd nail her!

I cannot picture myself with anyone but my wife. That's why I'm here in this forum crying my eyes out. Begging for help. Thanks to all of you that are here and are sticking around to walk me through this. Usually when a post gets this long, people get exhaustedand move on. Thanks so much for stickin around!! All of you!

More drama coming soon ...

Maybe I made another mistake. Here's the idea I wanted to run by scary1 without posting it. I've already done it so now there's no need for a phone call.

I made a lot of promises to my lovely wife starting with our marriage vows. I kept hardly a few promises and broke more than I can count. This drive I have makes me want to make up for the past but I know I can't. However, there was one promise that I just can't live without living up to and that was the years that I promised to take her to Hawaii some day. I could never live it down with the guilt of not keeping that 1 promise.

So today, I went to my travel agent and got all that I need to make a dream come true for her. I handed a box to her tonight, again reassuring her just as I did on our date, that this is about her, not me, other than the fact of living up to one promise. The only thing I want in return is a simple delay in a decision. A 3-4 week delay in handing her lawyer a $1500 check. It's going to take a while to sell the house, going to take up to 90 days for a dissolution. so time is on my side and I assured her that I am not buying HER, but I am buying TIME. Time to prove that I can be fun to be with and respect the woman I so desire. If she comes back and still want to go, then I WILL NOT stop her nor will I even try to.

I will breathe easier knowing that I did live up to at least one promise to her and I will feel relief. That plus, before my surgery this winter, I want to go somewhere anyways. Who know what will happen on that table. Nobody does. Will I wake up? Will I leave this earth not living up to any promise that I've ever made?

I sure hope not. She said she is going to think about it. Yes I did overwhelm her. But I feel no guilt for that. overwhelming it is. DIVORCE. Yeah, overwhelming. Big time!

I feel like I did the right thing. If she says no, that's ok. I'm still going, I'll just have to decide bewtween my Mom or my sister.

My wife has always talked about seeing a volcano with real lava flowing from it and to see it from the air. I have all of that planned and I want to see pearl harbor. I am a WWII nut and have deep feelings in me for those that sacrificed for me to love my wife.

Scary1, join in here and tell me what I've done to her with this. Did I do wrong or did I do right? Anyone chime in here and tell me if my last ditch effort of proving my love was the right or wrong thing to do. I know she's worried about feeling like she'll owe me when it's all over but I reassured her that her payment to me of waiting to write that check until we get back would be payment enough.

What have I done? Anyone?

Ah man where do I start!!! AHHHHHHHHH!!!

All right brace yourself! I guess I have to bring out the big guns to use on you. You don't seem to be taking to heart anything that people are posting here.

You need to stop everything you are doing and get a grasp on yourself and your emotions. RIGHT NOW!!! Your are spinning put of control. Talk about going down in a ball of flames.

1st you can not buy love! You know that, so why are you trying. How do you think that buying your STBXW a trip to Hawaii is going to solve any of your marital issues. You think that she is going to be like "Oh my God he loves and cares for me so much. I have always wanted to go to Hawaii. This trip will totally help me to forget about all the bad things he has done to me or how badly he has treated me. What a great guy. How could I ever think about leaving him."

You have committed one of the biggest acts of desperation that I think I have ever seen a guy commit. Please take just one moment and explain to me how you see taking your STBXW is a good idea. Here is what it screams to me. "Please, please, please do not leave me. I am begging you. I can not live without you. How can you even be toying with the idea of dating someone else? Here let me prove to you how much I love you and how much I deserve you with this token of my desperation (insert worthless monetary gift here)."

Alright look. I know how you feel as do the other people that have responded to your thread. We have all already been in your shoes or we are currently experiencing similar hardships. One thing is obvious to me and that is that you have not even beun to DETACH. I bet you have not even look into what it means to truly detach or what it means to detach. Here is a link once again for you to visit, that will help you grasp the idea. http://www.coping.org/control/detach.htm Here let me copy and past some quotes about detaching:

What is detachment? (Just a few examples) Detachment is the:

[*]Giving another person "the space'' to be him or herself.
[*]Willingness to accept that you cannot change or control a person, place, or thing.
[*]Establishing of emotional boundaries between you and those people you have become overly enmeshed or dependent with in order that all of you might be able to develop your own sense of autonomy and independence.
[*]Ability to maintain an emotional bond of love, concern, and caring without the negative results of rescuing, enabling, fixing, or controlling.
[*]Ability to let people you love and care for accept personal responsibility for their own actions and to practice tough love and not give in when they come to you to bail them out when their actions lead to failure or trouble for them.

No where in there do I see where it says that detaching is giving up, throwing in the towel, or to stop loving.

What are the negative effects not detaching? (Just a few examples) If you are unable to detach from people, places, or things, then you:

[*]Run the risk of being manipulated to do things for people, at places, or with things, which you do not really want to do.
[*]Will be blind to the reality that the people, places, or things which control you are the uncontrollables and unchangeables you need to let go of if you are to become a fully healthy, coping individual.
[*]Run the risk of becoming out of control of yourself and experience greater low self-esteem as a result.
[*]Will be so driven by guilt and emotional dependence that the sickness in the relationship will worsen.

There are so many negative affect that not detaching can have. Especially on a relationship in peril such as your own.

What irrational thinking leads to an inability to detach? (Just a few examples)

[*]If you should stop being involved, what will they do without you?
[*]They need you and that is enough to justify your continued involvement.
[*]You need them as much as they need you.
[*]Being detached seems so cold and aloof. You can't be that way when you love and care for a person. It's either 100% all the way or no way at all.
[*]If you should let go of this relationship too soon, the other might change to be like the fantasy or dream you want them to be.
[*]How can being detached from them help them? It seems like you should do more to help them.
[*]Detachment sounds so final. It sounds so distant and non-reachable. You could never allow yourself to have a relationship where there is so much emotional distance between you and others. It seems so unnatural.
[*]You would rather forgo all the pleasures of this world in order to assist others to be happy and successful.

Above are just a few examples of what people that do not understand what it means to detach or people that have fear of detaching think. If you are having any thoughts remotely similar to those above. Then you my friends need to detach. It is even stronger proof to that fact.

Hub. I wasted a good 6-8 months of trying to save my marriage doing similar acts or have similar behaviors to your current state. No, thank God I never became delusional enough to buy my STBXW an expense vacation, I may have though about it, but logic, thank goodness took over. But anyway I wasted a good 6-8 months spinning my wheels and taking 1 step forward and 2 steps back. The cause of this 6-8 months of limbo was for one reason and one reason only. My lack of being capable of detaching. To me there is nothing more detrimental to our cause then our in ability to detach. Up until I was able to begin to detach was I able to start have a clear glimpse of my situation ad what my STBXW was going through. It was only until then was I capable of any type of rational thoughts. I am not saying that the clouds parted and I have a crystal clear vision on things or I know what to do or how to act. But, me ability to think, control my pain, control my emotions and put together a game plan started to become possible. There is now way your are going to have a snowballs chance with turning things around until you get a hold of yourself. You need to get a hold of your thoughts. You need to get a hold of your emotions, You need to get a hold of your resentment. You need to get a hold of your anger. You need to get a hold of you self respect. But, you can not begin to do any of those things until you begin to detach. I am telling you as a friend and someone who has suffered as you are suffering. DETACHING needs to be your number one priority right now. YOU NEED TO DETACH. Only then can you move forward and make progress to win your wife back. Please believe what I say. Detaching is the key. Not meaningless trips to Hawaii.

Email me if you need more one on one. If you want to talk over the phone email and we can set a time. lovncela@yahoo.com

Stay strong and focus on detaching.

Nugget

Hubiscous,

I have lurked on MB on and off for a little under two years. I decided to register today because I wanted to tell you that I whole-heartedly agree with Nugget about your downward spiral.

I think this site is extremely helpful and I am not going to pretend to know as much as the regular posters here, so I understand if you take what I say with a grain of salt.

As Nugget stated, I do not think you are "getting" it. All of these gestures to your wife are not coming from a strong, healthy place with your family as the priority--they are coming from a very needy and desperate place with your SELF as the priority. You are not in a healthy state of mind right now. I can feel that you want to be and that you are trying to be a better husband, but you're not ALLOWING yourself to become more healthy because you refuse to detach. You cling to her because you are afraid of losing her and in my personal experience, fear should never be the sole motivation for one's actions.

You cannot give another person your best when you are not at your best, and right now you are not at your best. You need to work on yourself independently and let her do the same. Change is so hard, even when you really want it. You haven't changed yet and the desperate gestures only expose that.

I do wish you luck! The other posters on this thread are fantastic, PLEASE listen to them. I want everything to work out for you.

Yep, I have to agree. She's going to feel like you're trying to buy her out. I read a book titled 'Winning Your Wife Back Before It's Too Late" and it specifically addressed that issue. You can give gifts, but then need to be at the same level as your relationship is at right now. It is good that you got her something that you know she likes, but you way over did it. You could have got the message that you are thinking of her much better by getting her a CD of a band she likes, or something else small like that. It would show that you know who she is and what she likes, without going overboard and make her feel like you're trying to buy her.

If you're lucky, she'll just blow it off and reject it. If not, she'll resent you for it. And I would not take your mom or sister with you if she rejects. That's going to make her feel worse. Cancel it or give it away to somebody else, but don't go without her.

I understand what your feeling. My wife has had 3 kids, and wanted to get some plastic surgery to adjust some things. So I went ahead and found out if I could get a loan for it. I could, and I wanted to tell her, but thankfully I didn't. I was just going to keep it ready for when/if things got better. Unfortunately, she found out about it, and it didn't bother her, but I don't think it helped me in any way.

And I'm all for giving gifts, that's one of my wife's ENs and I feel like I've done a pretty good job of it. Spacing them out, making them thoughtful and personal, not too much, and not expecting any reaction in return for it. But I have overdone it. I got her these 3 pack of massages, and she told me it made her so happy, but she felt guilty about it. That's not the reaction you want.

Oh, and don't start doing things that you can't maintain. She'll see through it, you'll be burnt out, and you'll be worse then where you left off.

I see. I over did it. Just wanted to kep one promise to her and make my final stand. Buying her is NOWHERE near my intention. Buying time? Yes. I did not see this as a way to buy her but everyone else including her does. y intentions are nothing but good and I keep screwing up! Damn me!

If she accepts, however, we're going, and I'll show her that I can be a fun-loving man. If she says no, I'l have to cancel. However, before I lay flat on that operating table, I am going to do something extarvagant! I may never get the chance to do anything again. Maybe by then, my detachment efforts will help and I can gain some strength that I need to move on.

I did finally read the detachment link you sent Nugget. But yes, I hadn't until just now. It's a little mixed up though. Detach from someone that needs help is not a good idea. And she needs help, but she also needs to find herself. So it's a double edged sword detaching from her. Detach I will though. Seems though it's for the best.

I stil hope she believes that it's not a purchase for love, cause I've made it clear that I have to earn her love, trucst and faith in me. If she believes that, then I see no harm in going. If she strugles with it, then I'l detach from the whole thing.

Thanks a lot EVERYONE! Keep those 2x4's swinging at me. I need all the wake up cals I can get at this time. Especially the closer it gets to D-Day!

Why??? Do you see it as your one last chance for an act of desperation? Don't do anything extravagant. It will not work out. It will only back fire and but your efforts farther behind. Listen to what mel_vin said in his post. It is very good advice It is the little things that count. I have read two books recently about how to connect or understand women and they both make the same statement. The little things or acts of kindness that we do for women have a much bigger impact overall then do our big efforts. Holding her hand out in public, sending her a warm text during the day, opening the door for her, calling her by the nickname you have for her etc. All have a bigger effect on her emotional security then taking her out to an expensive meal or buying her expensive gifts or vacations. You are thinking like a man, You are thinking to big. You need to think small. Think about the little things that are important to her.

Who says she needs help??? She has told you that she needs help! Or you have decided that she needs help because she is walking away from a hurtful marriage and does not see things your way. How do you figure that she needs help. What is leading you to say that???

Just wanted to add one more thing to what nugget said. Where is this time table coming from? Why do you want to put all this pressure on her. Take your time. I know you have surgery coming up, and you want her by your side, but is it impossible to think she may not be ready till after the surgery? Rome wasn't built in a day, these things take time.

Right now, your lack of patience makes it look like this is about what you need and what you want, not what she wants. Let this work on her timetable, let her have some control over her own emotions.

Also, regardless of whether or not she has a problem that needs fixing, you aren't the one that needs to fix her. She's having trouble trusting you right now, and you have obvious motives, so you can't really help her solve her own problems. Let her figure it out for herself. What you need to do right now is fix your own problems (which you've been working on) and be ready when she's ready.

Ok, one more thing. I get the need to do something extravagent. That's fine. If this is something you really want to do, then hold off till she can really enjoy it, knowing there are no alterior motives. And heck if you love her so, is there something wrong with waiting? Heck you can keep your promises even if you guys get a divorce. There's no law that says you can't do something extravagent for her then, and then she'll know it's about her and nothing else. And you know, some people actually get remarried every now and then.

As I mentioned before, my big thing for my wife was the surgery. I don't know that I'll be able to afford if we have 2 residences and such, but I am not ruling it out as something that could happen in the future. If I love her at that time and she can except it, then I may still do it. Afterall, it's not about what I might get in return, right?


So that's not one thing but still, work on your patience.

Roger that - patience - gotta keep reminding myself that time really is on my side , for now.

She reminded me today when she told me no to Hawaii, that she's afraid of the obligation that would follow. She has her own mind, so I will not continue to remind her that it's about her and not me. She has every reason not to believe a word I say. I'm really the only one that knows what comes out of my mouth is fact. Including all of you. There is no way I can prove anything with words. I gotta keep reminding myself of that.

She said she still needs to get out. Her gut tells her to get out. That cool. She has her own feelings for once and I gotta detach!!!! DETACH!!! (repeat repeat repeat)

She did say one thing positive, and that she can see change in me and she wants to see it for herself and don't have to prove it to her with words. You all are so right and I hate that - lol. Everything you've said to me is true. Let it all play out. She's seeing it, but she has to leave me to heal - she says. I just hope she's a fast healer. I can't wait forever, but I will wait a while and hope she finds me again. I'll be right here, loving, waiting and crying out loud.

I'll hold on to that money for a little while in hopes that she comes back before my surgery. If she comes back before my surgery, then we'll go to Hawaii to celebrate her return and party big time! Celebrate like brand new lovers!

I wonder though what it will be like lying there with IV's in me without her holding my hand when they put me under.

Sorry if I missed this already, but when is your surgery? She came around enough by then. If it were me, I wouldn't mention the surgery to her (or bring it up for no reason anyway) until a week before the surgery. Then I would ask her if she would go with you...don't beg, just let her know that it would mean a lot to you if she was there. It's ok to admit you need her, and she may respond if you say it as if she's not obligated, but you'd appreciate it. It could end up being a good bonding experience for you two.

About 6 weeks ago (maybe longer), I asked my wife to go with me when I was getting a tatoo. It was my first, and she'd had a few before. Plus I justed wanted her there. She said she didn't feel comfortable with it, but I think she was glad I didn't just run off without her. And I called her right afterwards to let her know how it was. I'm glad I asked, and I'm glad I went ahead without her as well.

Hub one of the reasons that she feels like she needs to get out is because you are putting way to much pressure on her. One of the first thing that EVERY relationship book that I have read states is that if your relationship is going south and you spouse wants out you HAVE TO BACK OFF. If you do not back of it only pushes them father and faster away. I was amazed at how things between me and my W changed for the better, once I back of and stopped pressuring her. She stopped be on guard and so defensive. She started accepting my invites to do things together. It will be no different with your W. You will be surprised at how soon she may loose interest in "getting out there" once you back of.

Here is an example from my own book. When we were going through things at the end and we were still living together, my wife spent as much free time as she could with her friends (3 of them divorced single mothers and 1 of them in an un-happy marriage). If she was not working then she was with them. Going for coffee, going out dancing or just hanging out. I felt abandoned. Well once we got separated and I backed of the heavy pursuit to get her back, the tables changed. Now she only speaks to two of those friends. She does not spend anytime with them. She spends all her time that she is not working at my house. And when the call her on her cell phone, when she is with me she sighs and says now what do they want and does not answer. No that is irony.

Ok, now let me address your surgery. Several years ago I had a very difficult surgery. One that landed me in the ICU. I spent a week in the hospital and 3 weeks layed up at home on oxygen. I was during this time that I found out that my STBXW was not in love with me. My family (which I am not very close to) spent substantial amount of time taking care of my and our S. I even came very close to my old brother that I have despised for most of my life. My W did only the bare minimum that she thought necessary.

Here is the kicker for me. 3 weeks out of the hospital, unable to care for myself, laid up in bed and still on oxygen, my wife tells me that in one week she is going to drive to CA with her friend to pick up her grandpa that is sick. I was shocked. I told her that there is now way that she can go. I can not take care of myself and our son. She replied that it is a week away and that I will be better by then. I told her there was no way. We left it at that. Well a week later she comes into my room and says "Ok I am off". I honestly did not know what she was referring to. I said confused "Your off to where?" She replied casually "To CA with (friend) to get her grandpa. Remember I told you last week." I freaked and told her "I told you there is now way you can go and leave me here. I can not care for myself and I can not car for S." She replied coldly "it is only 3 days. You will be fine. Call your family, they will come to help you." and with that she walked out the door.

About an hour later I sent her a text that said. "I hope your friend is willing to take care of your needs as you are will to take care of her's. I suggest you speak to her about a place to stay, because you have turned your back on me, in a time when I need you here the most. Do not plan on coming back her." She responded. I am sorry that you feel hurt by my leaving. Everything will be ok." On another note. This is the one action that my wife has done to me that I resent her for. Everything else that she has done or says I have long forgiven her for and forgotten about. But this one I am still struggling with. I know that I do need to forgive her and stop resenting her for it.


I will not go into the details about her return home, but will say it lead to our first conversation were she told me that she did not love me and she was not attracted to me. It was all downhill from there.
Here is what I am getting at. As much as you would like your W to be by your side in the hospital, it is not the best thing to wish for right now. She is not feel the same about you right now as you feel for her. She is not in the same mind set as you are. Although I am confident that she cares for your well being and your health, you asking her to be by your side is selfish and very pressuring to her. If she knows that you are having surgery, fine leave it at that. If she wants to go then fine. But, DO NOT ask her to go. DO NOT beg her to go. DO NOT pressure her to go.

I have to disagree with this a little. I think it's ok to ask, but without pressure and certainly no begging. Don't make her feel guilty about saying no, and don't let her 'no' hurt you. Nor should you jump for joy if she says yes. Don't pretend like you don't want her to go. But it's just an opinion.

And hub just so you realize your not alone in how you feel....I just got off the phone with my wife. We talked for 30 minutes, which is amazing in itself. She actually gave me a compliment and opened up a bit. By the end of the conversation, I wanted to tell her I loved, her missed her, everything that you're feeling. But that would just push her away, so I bit my tongue, and told her I enjoyed talking with her. It sucks, I don't want to wait, I want this to be all over now, but I have to wait the same way you do. You can do this. If I can be patient, you certainly can.

I don't think he should ask and here is why I say that. If he just let's her know that he is having surgery and when it is, then if she wants to accompany him that it is her own choice. She has decided to do so with no pressure. All he did was provide her with the information.

On the other hand if he asks her to accompany him then that is pressuring her. Even if there is no begging or guilt behind it. If he asks she will feel pressured because she may feel obligated to go. She may feel guilty and agree to go only because they have a history together and a surgery is a big event in life. So even if she does not want to go she may end up going because of the pressure and the history involved.

But, like I say if he just says that he has an upcoming surgery and leaves her the choice to go or not all on her own, then there is not pressure.

I think we agree in principle. No pressure. I just think she should know that she's welcome to come.

Hub, will you have family there? I can imagine that would be a reason for her to stay away, as I'm sure she think your parents see her as the enemy.

And hub, pick nuggets advice over my own. I think he's got more experince on this then I do.

That is a very good point. I would like to know about this also.

I plan on going for this surgery after Christmas, if it can wait that long. What I am getting is a Pelvic Pouch Pull Through. This will remove my colon completely and have me laid up for about 3 months of recovery and then I go back again to have the temporary system removed and the new J-Pouch system will then be used and recover for another 3 months.

I have family that will be there. Mainly just my mother who lives 2 hours away. My wife can think what she wants about my family but nobody hates her. She always confided in my mother and my mother knows everything that I've done and what it's done to my wife. Because she always told her and not me. Man I wish one of them would have told me!

Mom should be there most of the time, but I say only most. The other unmost of the time, I will probably be alone, unless I meet someone who cares about me. Her mother cares about me alot! She knows what I've done, but she still loves me, I know she does. I would guess that she would also be there if I needed her. My wife would probably only be there long enough to drop off the kids when it's me turn and my mother would take care of me and the kids at the same time. I fear that my wife would get away from me as soon as possible. I don't know, just guessing. I was not always there for her during rough times of hers and I see this upcoming surgery as a chance for her to show me how it feels.

I really don't think she has ANY feelings at all for me. Can I blame her though? Probably not. Just really scarry to think of the times that I'll be alone through this. And really, the reason that I decided to get the surgery instead of popping pills forever was my wife. I know our quality of life and alot of my anger stemmed from my discomfort with Ulcerative Colitis. My sex drive was very low and my anger was on high when I was flarred up. Kinda like being on "the rag" 6 months out of the year. I decided to get this surgery to improve our life! I would have went on forever miserable if it wasn't for her.

Getting my health fixed and getting my head on right was originally all for her. Time and time again I told her that our life will be so much better after the surgery and my therapy. I will be making myself better though, while she's off doing her dating thing and finding herself. It hurts! Hurts bad.

I finally detached today. I gotta let go. I'll hurt like hell. Won't be able to listen to ANY music. Every dang song reminds me of her. When I said do something huge for a vacation, I meant for me. Before my surgery, I want to do something extraordinary that I've never done. She has always wanted to go to Hawaii and I have always wanted to see Pearl Harbor. Looks like Pearl Harbor it is. Probably end up going in January or maybe go during Christmas. I don't know. I plan on surgery around Feb. or March. This will put me on disability during the at&t contract negotiations and might save my job in April. I'll still have a paycheck during the strike if there is one. I'm hoping my system will hold off that long. I'm hoping that the stress from all of this not push me in early. Stress causes flare ups and I'm starting to flare up as of today. It's got me worried. This whole thing might tear more than my heart up!

I don't think I'll ask her to be there. With children involved and shared parenting being the only way I'll sign any papers, I'll have my wonderful children every other week. She'll have to know when it's time and she can make the decision for herself. Who knows though. There's a lot of time between now and then that if I can stay detached, maybe she'll find herself and want me before Christmas. I'll be praying HARD for that!

Hub, you seem to be a bit beaten down in your words you have written. It happens to all of us. Take sometime to just relax and breathe. This battle is not going to be easy, but it may very well be the best thing you have ever fought for. Stay strong.

I had not idea you surgery was so far into the future. You need to refocus a lot closer to today and not so far away. A lot can and will change before next spring, so it is useless to focus your energy so far into the future.

You need to set yourself some short term goals and put together a game plan on how you are going to accomplish those goals. Set goals for tomorrow, the next seven days and for the next 2-3 weeks. What is it that you wish to accomplish in those time frames and how are your going to go about achieving them? What can you do today, tomorrow and this week for yourself? What steps do you need to take to make you W feel secure? What steps do you need to take to give your W that space she needs? What SMALL (not trips to Hawaii) acts of kindness can you do for your wife so she can see that you love her? Let's get you working on NOW and not some distant date in the future. That day will be here soon enough, but a lot will and can happen before then.

As far as your detaching goes. I am glad to hear you are starting. But keep in mind detachment is not something that happens overnight. How long it takes depends on the person and how focused they are on truly detaching. I am a little concerned about your frame of mind concerning detaching. I know it can be a scary thought, especially when at first you do not understand what it means to detach. You say "Won't be able to listen to ANY music. Every dang song reminds me of her." Detaching is not meant to be painful, unless you make it painful. I feel that you still think that detaching means, forgetting, giving up, moving on alone. It does not mean any of those. True detachment is what sets you free. It is what frees your mind and your soul. I was in a cloud of haze, until I detached. I was constantly confused and at odds with my emotions, I could not make a clear decission. But, once I was able to begin to detach, was I able to see and think more clearly. You need to stop thinking of it as the end, because it is not. In reality it is a new beginning, kind of a re-birth.

I dug in my archives and found this article that help me to understand detaching a little better. Hope It helps you as it helped me.

What is detachment?
Posted by: Remez Sasson

There is some misunderstanding about the meaning of detachment. What is detachment? Does it mean being indifferent, lazy or lacking warmth and compassion? No, this is not true detachment! True detachment is a state of not getting disturbed or agitated by external events and by yours and other people’s emotions and thoughts. It is a state of staying calm and in control of yourself and your moods in every situation, without feeling being harassed or hurried by people or circumstances. Detachment shows itself in lack of attachment to the results of your actions, and in accepting the consequences of what you do. Instead of getting nervous, angry, agitated or unhappy, if things go wrong, you stay calm and try again. In this sense, detachment shows itself as inner peace, inner strength and courage. A truly detached person would act, work study or do everything else with attention and to the best of his ability, without laziness or indifference, but also with full detachment as to the results. There is no waste of time and energy on thinking about the ‘why’ and ‘what if’. You can make plans, work and live an active life, but yet, maintain an inner state of detachment. You can love, be happy and enjoy life, but be emotionally and mentally unaffected by circumstances, situations and people. It is a matter of attitude. I know this might seem impossible for some people, but nothing is impossible with some training and inner work.

Are you quick to get angry?
Are you easily affected by what people say or think about you?
Do your moods go up and down often?
Can an insignificant, unpleasant incident destroy your whole day?
Are you happy with this situation? Probably not!

The good news is that by developing some inner detachment, you can change this situation. Most people allow external influences affect their moods and behavior, and do nothing to stop this state of affairs. Being emotionally affected by external situations and by what people say or do, often brings needless unhappiness, anger and suffering. Yet, most people do not do anything about this state of affairs, because they regard it as a natural part of life. Imagine how free, relieved and happy you would be, if you could stay calm and poised in the midst of whatever is happening in your life. Think how much physical, emotional and mental energy you could spare, if you were able to avoid being upset, angry or moody. Emotional agitation, anger and hurt feelings bring a lot of distress and lead nowhere, except more pain, suffering and broken relationships. They disturb your mind, disrupt your concentration, and prevent you from focusing on the matters at hand. If you wish to enjoy inner peace, it is imperative that you try to gain at least some degree of inner detachment. Possessing inner detachment does not mean that your life will be worry-free, and that nothing will ever disturb your inner poise. You will still encounter disturbing circumstances and disturbing people, however, your attitude toward them and the way you react would change.

To understand what I am talking about, let's look at the following scenario:

Jim and his wife Suzan planned on going out to meet some friends at a restaurant. A few minutes before leaving home, one of their children dropped a dish to the floor and broke it down. Suzan got angry and yelled at him, and then started picking up the pieces and sweeping the floor. Meanwhile, Jim was waiting impatiently for his wife to finish cleaning up, so that they could go out. When they finally left home, they both were tense and nervous. On top of all this, they were stuck in traffic jam, which made them more short tempered. When they finally arrived to the restaurant, they were exhausted, moody and uncomfortable for being late.

Does this scenario ring a bell? Well, maybe it is a bit exaggerated, but everyone goes through similar disturbing situations every single day, when rushing to work in the morning, and your children have all the time in the world, when having something urgent to do, and a friend just keeps talking and talking, or when someone at work or on the street mistreats you.

Let's now look at a different scenario. Let's suppose that Jim and Suzanne are able to display some emotional detachment. With such a frame of mind, they would have calmly handled the incident with the broken plate, cleaning the floor and the traffic jam, without letting their emotions heat up and control their behavior and moods.

The ability to maintain a calm and poised mind, and avoid being upset by external situations is called inner detachment. This ability does not change the external situation, but it allows you to act and react without involving needless inner turmoil and heated emotions, which often cloud the judgment and waste unnecessary emotional and physical energy. Being emotionally detached enables you to evaluate every situation more clearly, and respond with common sense and poise, instead of responding with anger, moodiness or stress.

Emotional detachment does not make problems and troubling situations disappear, but it enables you to act and react calmly and with common sense, without negative feelings and moodiness. Developing inner detachment is not different from developing any other skill, and requires understanding of what detachment is, the desire to gain it and training.

Wow, that stuff is kinds deep for a "good ole boy" lol. I'm a simple man that uses simple words. lol

I think I am detached. I think it's time to help her speed this thing up and get the pain over with. It's clear to me now that nothing can stop this so I want the pain to stop dragging out and just speed this up. Monday, I want to go to my lawyer and get the scoop on a few things and then get this over with.

Let me say in my words what I think detached is and then you all can correct me if I'm wrong.

I feel that detached means: let her go but continue to show my change is real and my change is a need that I have for myself. Continue to show her that I mean business. The new me is coming soon to a heart near you! Stay focused on my therapy and the success of a new me. Hope she sees it and stays but if she doesn't, then I did it for me and everyone else in my life will benefit from it including me. Hope she realizes the change is real before it's too late, but don't force the issue if she does not. There will be life after my one and only true love. A rough one at first - but there is life.

Now here's a concern that I have of wondering if I can truly become "detached". Let's say that the house is sold, the divorce is final and she's in an apartment and I'm in my house. She still has not found that being away from me brings her happiness, so she hooks up with "Rod" and goes on a date. She calls me and says, I went on a date and I hated it, I want you back and I want to work together to make our lives the best it can be. Well, I gotta take her back - no doubt! But then let's change things up a little bit. Here's where I'm afraid that I don't know the true meaning of detached. She goes on a date with "Rod", calls me up and says, I went on a date and I hated it. I gave myself to him and found out he was just using me for sex. I felt used and I want you back and I want to work together to make our lives the best it can be. Here is where I stop and say forget it. I could not take her back knowing that another man has had my wife. That would be unforgiveable, unforgetable and disgusting. Is there any reason that I should "detach" from those thoughts as well? Or am I simply a rational man that cannot stand the thought of having my wife come back after something so drastic such as this has taken place?

True detachment is not worrying about things that you can not control. So if you have truly detached then if it happens, it happens. There is nothing you can do about it and letting it get you upset or letting it build a wall between you and her is not the right thing to do.

But, honestly I can't say how I would handle that myself. I am a pretty jealous person and I am not sure how well I would handle a situation like that. I have not reach that level of detachment yet.

Another example from my book. When we first got divorced and my wife started spending her weekends at my house, I started snooping. I started looking at her text messages on her phone. I found some text from a couple of different guys. Nothing serious or overly threating, but playful banter all the same. One weekend we were at a children's museum with our S and she gets a call on her cell. She had a shocked look on her face, but took the call anyways. She quickly walked away out of hearing range from and S. She spoke for ever an hour with this person. From her body language I could see that it was a very light and playful conversation. I was convinced it was a guy. If it was one of her friends she would have stayed by us and spoke or told them she would call them back. I was furious. One from my own jealousy and two that she had ignored her S for over an hour at a special place that he wanted to go to and when she only sees him mostly only on the weekends. Later that day I went of on her about it.

Now, I have detached enough with her that I do not snoop. She has even gotten more protective when she texts. She will sneak into another room to text and if I come by or I see her she will quickly close her phone. I told her last week, that she does not have to hide to text on her phone. I told her it is her life and I do not control it and I can not control who she talks to to texts. One thing that does make it easier for me is knowing that even though she is talking and texting OM, she is not serious with them. I know this because she spends all of free time with me. If she was serious she would blow me off and not come over to my house when ever she is not working. All I can do is control what I can control and that is my and my actions. I can control how I treat and act towards her. My behavior and actions have to attractive to her then those of the OM. That is the only way I will be able to have any control over the situation.

Now if she was to hook up with some guy. I am guessing my initial response would be to cut her out of my life, except to do things with her and our S. I will always have a loving parental relationship with her. I am sure with time and detaching, that I would forgive her and get over it. Just as I have with her being in contact with OM.

Wow. Both my mother and sister have Ulcerative Colitis, so I have a good idea of what you're talking about, and having to take meds for it and everything. Both of them are rather stressful people and I know how that makes things worse. My sister had part of her colon removed but not the whole thing.

IMO, this should be considered part of the 'through sickness and in health' clause of vows. Not to excuse behavior, but I wish spouses would take these kind of things into account when evaluating your spouse, at least to understand that maybe it doesn't have to do with them as much as it appears.

But anyway, detach. I think you need to find out that you can be ok without her. You are still your own individual. As for what happens when she starts dating, I don't know what I'd do either. I guess I'm mentally planning for it myself, and hear is some of the things I'm thinking about.

- She married me, not this guy, we have the history, they don't. They can't possibly have the intimacy that we shared.
- She has needs and is not in her normal state of mine. Thus she is likely lowering her standards
- This guy is not the father of her children.
- Being jealous will only make her think she made the right decision. Just keep it to myself.

And as for her coming back to you...you're already working on yourself...that doesn't change regardless of what she does. But I think you also get to think about what you need in a relationship. You can't just take her back and let her go back to doing all the things she did to hurt you. She has to win you back to to an extent, and know that even though she had her reasons for leaving, she can't just walk all over you. She needs to regain your trust. And if she cheated in some sort of capacity, she needs to know that that hurt, and she can't do that to you again.

All these things will help you going forward, with or without her, in a new relationship or on your own. You win.

That's sorta how I feel. I mean, I did say for better or for worse. Now we are at our worse! The worst thing that can happen to our marriage is happening right in front of us. This is by far the largest trial we could both ever face in our entire lives. From "I do" to "I want out", we have been through the mill! But we never said, "I do, unless...". And I have kept that in mind every time I wanted out as bad as she does now. She has done some very bad things to me, not only due to my behaviour, but from her own lack of good judgement as well, and I have forgiven her. Honestly forgiven her. As time passes during this whole thing, I continue to learn of other things she has done and people she has had relationships with, things that she has done with those I trusted, some previous friends, and I struggle to find where I can blame myself for these things. Some I can, but others I can not. Some things I've heard just sickens me. But it's all temporary. I think about her and the vows I took, and I forgive her. If I could hold her right now and tell her some of the things I know and forgive her for every one, one by one, I would do exactly that. That's how much I love this woman. If I could hold her the way I did on our wedding day and start something new with her, I would.


This is all so true. And you see, detaching to me also means detaching from the past. Somehow, I'd love to make her realize that the past is the past and the future could be so bright for the both of us if we could both accept the changes we could both make could lead us to a stronger relationship than we even started with. Even after the divorce, I can imagine us together again and coming back together with a new understanding of eachother. Complete and total forgiveness would HAVE to be real. And then a new life would begin.

However, I fear that this will be the end. The end of what should have been and should be but will never see the light. I will find the strength eventually to not dwell on what we could be or what we should be, and will soon enough start a new life of respect and love for someone else.

Her and I were meant to be together. We were a beautiful couple much of our 15 years. It was NOT all wasted time. We had several beautiful moments and good times and two wonderful children. What we shared can not be measured. We did laugh, we did love and we were at one time unseperable. What will our futures bring? I pray to God every day that he will lay his hand on both of us and guide us on the correct path. I pray that he will show my wife that I love her and will respect her and give my all to her if she stays, but I also pray for the strength to let her go.

Update:

Everything still seems to be just as was. Seems as though d-day is eminent. However, thanks to all of you, I am "detached" from that and am strictly focusing on staying true to my objective and becomming a man! A MAN. I gotta tell you all that I feel really good inside. I feel like a brand new person. I feel like I can conquer this and come out ahead no matter what happens. I am getting stronger. The tears don't flow quite as long when I cry. My outbursts are in private and they only last a couple minutes now instead of hours.

My wife and I had very good conversation this evening. Then we went out to eat and I was blessed to have my family together. These moments as a family, I will cherish forever. I'm sucking up all of them that I can.

We returned to home and had even more good conversation. Affirming her that everything is going to be ok. D-Day or not. I will stay on this path I am on and treat her with the upmost respect and dedicate myself to her throughout this process, even if it stays on the current path of destruction. I will keep my promise to her and to myself to respect her and never hurt her again.

I rubbed her back tonight for an hour. She fell aslepp within 30 minutes of it yet I continued to caress her back with my hands taking in every piece of heaven that it brought to me too. I hated to stop, but I got so tired and was starting to get weak again, so I had to. I gently tucked her in with a soft kiss to her back and covered her softly with her sheet. Quietly, I left the room and lost it for a couple minutes.

I'll be ok. Thanks to all of you that helped me define "detach". You were all very therapeutic to my health and to my soul. Thanks to you all, I have become what I so needed to be for years.

I am kind. I am calm. I am loving even through this rough time, and I am respectful. I care about others, especially my wife. I care about myself and what I have to endure in the near future. I feel remorse. I feel happy. I feel forgiveness that has stemmed from my love for her. I feel whole. Therefore, I am A MAN!

Thank you all!

Glad to see you have begun the detachment process. Glad to hear that overall things are going a little more smoothly wit you and your W. You got in a little caring physical intimacy. Good for you!!! Glad to see you did not over do it (to bad) and you kept it light on the pressure. Remember slow and steady wins the race.

I am in the process of setting up a blog page where I can post some of the help information that I have collected over the past 3 years (God has it been 3 years) about how to save a a relationship and yourself. Here is the first post I have made there. I think it may help you to get a little bit of perspective about where your wife is right now and how she got there. I know I learned quite a bit from it.
http://nuggetsrelationshipblog.blogspot.com/2008/08/building-walls.html

Thank you nugget! I promise I will read your blog right away. Anything I can do to stay on track and show my wife that I understand her and owe her what she wants and needs - I HAVE to do.

I gotta repeat myself though because it feels so good to.

We all know how we got here. Hate. Disrespect. Belittling. Ignoring. Power. Control.

I have to tell you, I feel none of this! I feel just the opposite.

HATE:
I have no hate for what she has done to me. I have forgiven her for all of it. Washed my hands clean of it. I love her no matter what she has done and what she is doing! And it feels good!

Disrespect:
I have nothing but respect and it shows. My Mother, my father, my sister, my coworkers, all see it. I do things for them that I've never done, because it feels good!

Belittling:
I am no longer blaming myself nor my wife for what is happening. I do not make her feel threatened by me, and it feels good!

Ignoring:
I now give her and everyone that I talk to my undivided attention. I look into their eyes. I let them speak and then I speak. I finally have the ability to hold conversation at a rational level. And it feels good!

Power:
I now feel that I HAVE NO POWER! I don't need power. I am only a man. I cannot do what God can do. He has the power to stop this if he wants to. Not me. And it feels good!

Control:
I do not have control. Nor do I want control. Who actually has control? God! I have no control. And that actually feels good!

What does it take to be a man? I've already told you. I feel good! Somebody out there is going to like this man! I really think that it might be my love. I really think she will see it before it's too late. If not, I'll still feel good that I became what she always wished that she had.

I am A MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And I feel GREAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Perhaps this is a tangent, but I wanted to talk about this for a second. I certainly have thought about God's role in my relationship, and my relationship with Him. God certainly does power and control, but I don't think he will make anyone love another person. In the same way, he won't make us love Him. If it's forced, it isn't really love.

God can help you to fix your problems and turn the bad into good. He can help your spouse to see the truth of things, make them obvious. But he does not make us love someone if they choose not too, if the past is too much for them to overcome, even though they can see the past is gone.

I keep that in mind when I consider that my divorce may actually go through. God is not to blame if that happens. Either my spouse refuses to believe, or I don't follow His suggestions for reconciliation. There can and will be miracles if we ask, but ultimately, he won't make anyone love another.

I don't know, my opinion anyway.

God has proven to me in the past that he has total control. Let me prove that.

May 15, 1989 I was struck my a car as a pedestrian at 55 mph by a 3,500lb car. I was thrown 100 feet back the way I came from. y compound fractured legs were scraping up cinders like a shovel. I could not move my legs. All I could do is scream for help and beg for the pain to stop.

I was to leave for the Air Force in 2 weeks and those dreams were just shattered. I would be retiring next year and going into the civilian world as an air traffic controller making 3 figures.

While laying in the hospital for 3 months, not once did I blame God for what had happened. I did not know why it happened. But later I would find out.

Later: I met my love of my life. I had 2 beautiful children with her and all of these years that have went by, I have thanked God for my accident. I knew why it happened. I was destined to be with my wife! The one that is leaving me! My life objective was to meet my one and only true love, not go to the Air Force, have 2 beautiful children, not direct airplanes when to land, to learn how to love her and cherish her till death do us part, not belittle her and refuse her what she deserved. Now that I let God down, she is leaving. I know that God can see my heart and what's inside and how real and serious I am of proving myself to my wife and it brings me hope. I have to thank him for her and I have to prove to her that I am strong and she can live the rest of her life without fear, with comfort in my arms, with devotion to her happiness, with all that I have to give.

I think this is my life lesson that woke me up and wake up I did. This is why I pray to him to forgive me and touch her, if not directly, then at least through me and my proof of my love for her.

I WILL NOT give up on her or my gift that God gave me 15 years ago! She is my world. Without her, I will be weak. I will beg God for forgiveness, and he will forgive me and hold my hand until I find happiness again!

My prayers will not be answered. She found this forum and really went berzerk. The things in here was embarrasing to her even though no one knows who we are. I tried to make it perfectly clear to her that it is all for her. I started this thread to find out how to fix me so that I could fix her and us. It stopped right there and with a disgusted look on her face she looked at me meaner than she ever has, and with nothing but intentional hurt in her eyes. she said " I JUST WANT OUT! "

I want to thank all of you for helping me be what she needs. It was not all in vain. Hopefully someone else will see what I've become and like it. If I make it through the days to come.

I think it's time to close this thread and chaulk off another marriage. I am so sad. I have completely lost it guys. I had such high hopes coming here. I was doing everything right. And it failed. I failed her. I am so sorry to everyone I've hurt along the way to this new me.

I wish I could take it all back. Wish me luck all and thanks again!

~Hubiscous

hubiscous,

You absolutely must slow down. Reading all the emotions the emotions in your post is driving me crazy. I can't imagine that it's making your wife feel comfortable, and it can't be good for your colon. You are not going to resolve anything in a day, and any changes you make need to go on for more then just a couple days for it to be real.

Yes, what she said is important and needs to heeded, but your reaction to it is totally off. You do not need to fix her, it's never been your job to fix her or anyone else. As well, you need to find a place where you are happy with yourself, regardless of what Mrs.hubiscous feels about you right now. You do not need to make be planning out your future without her right now. Just find yourself. Slow down. You will be doing yourself, your wife, and your kids a big favor no matter what happens in the future.

Hub, mel_vin is absolutely right. YOU NEED TO SLOW DOWN. You are like a hamster on it's exercise wheel running 100 mph yet going no where or a dog running in circles chasing it's tail.

As for dropping out of the game or giving up, just because your wife found this forum is BS. You are the one that makes that decision, not her's. If she does not want to work on things right now than that is fine. That by no means says that you have to stop also. My wife has shown me no interest in the past 3 years that she wants anything much to do with me at all. Has that stopped me, HELL NO!!! Have I let off on my persistence at times and become lax'd about it, yes. It is not only now after 3 years of working on things am I starting to see results. If you give up that is your choice not her's!!! I hope you will make the smart choice and keep at it. Unless you think she is not worth the effort.

Working on myself is all I can do now. I've lost all hope of keeping her here and the family together. I did fail at that! I didn't mean that I'm giving up on me. I will stay on my current path but I have lost all hopes of the one I love staying with me. You guys are all so smart and are all so helpful. You keep punching me when I need it. Thanks!

I have nothing but me now though. I have to stay in touch with what my true goal is. I want to be the man she wants. And I've told her that even though she's leaving, because if I ever do get the nerve to replace her, I want her to be just like her.

I saw my therapist right after my last post and she helped me with coping. Just as you all have. I gotta say though, the closer this gets, the more scared I become. However, I am not scared of me. I know I am new! I feel new. I can't imagine EVER going back to the old selfish a hle that I was. If there is any glimmer of hope of her ever coming back, I gotta keep moving forward. I'm ok guys. I know what I have to do. I'll do it too! I will not let this defeat me. I will not let her defeat me. I can't! Cause someday, just someday, she WILL realize that I am everything I promised I would be.


Thanks again to all of you!

You are absolutely correct. Someday she will realize that you have become everything you promised her you would be.

Don't get me wrong or take this the wrong way, but in my opinion, you feeling of it being over with her and there not being any chance is a good thing for you right now. It may be just the mind set that you need to stop, slow down and start to focus on yourself instead of on her and the relationship. That is something I have not see you quite start to do you. You seem to be going 1000 mph worrying about her and your relationship with her. That can not be dealt with or fixed, until you deal with your own issues first. So stick to that plan. You, you , you. Live up to that promise you have made to her and turn yourself into everything you told her you would be.

I PROMISE I WILL! I WILL NOT FAIL AT THIS!

Hubs, this is good advice. Please remember that you have alot of good friends here (mel_vin & nugget) to help you through when things get tough.

Good luck and all the best...

Hello again,

I'm doing really well now. I finally figured out what detached really is. We're definitely going through with the divorce. I am not trying to stop it and I am even to the point of not letting it stop. I am trying to rush this thing for her and get her moving on.

At this point, my only hope for us is that we both get out there and both recognize that the mistakes we made are all history and that we both need eachother. It takes two though. I'm not really holding onto that thought anymore either though. I really am not expecting much at all out of this. This mindset is helping me move on.

Everybody and I mean everybody in my life notices the changes I've made and can see the new me is sincere and for real. It makes me proud to hear my son come to me voluntarily and say Daddy, I know you've changed. You don't yell anymore, even when I do something wrong. My coworkers are saying, what's got into you. You're being so nice and you're getting a divorce! My family is telling me that my new attitude is a pleasure to be around. Even my mother-in-law has said she notices changes and she's only seen me for 5 minute intervals now and then.

So you see, finally, I am not the only one that sees it and knows it's real. This makes me feel really good about what I've accomplished for myself. I will take this new me back out into the world and I will have several others to add to this list. If my wife never gets put back on that list, then I will move on with my life and add someone else to my list to treat with respect and honor.

Thanks to all of you that have been here to help me through this, I CAN and WILL stay motivated through the rest of my life to live, learn, respect, love, and cherish those that are a part of me.

So you have decided not to try to reconcile and you have given in to her way of thinking that divorce is what is best for the of you and your two children. Pretty quick path you took. You went from "HELP - She's Leaving and I LOVE HER!" to "We're definitely going through with the divorce. I am not trying to stop it and I am even to the point of not letting it stop." You went from wanting to get her back, to getting her on her way as quickly as possible, in under 30 days. All I can say is WOW!