Dear HopingHeart,
I want to share somethings with you that you will discover through your life, maybe when it is too late to change them, when you will regret many of them, and mourn many more.

You will do some things over which you will grieve immensely. You will hurt those in your life more than you ever thought possible, and every part of you will die inside, day after day, as you deal with the hurt and the pain you've caused. You will regret your horrible mistakes, but the people who matter won't believe you. You will ask for a second chance, and you will long for the days when the one you love could still hope in you, but they will be unable to give it. You will suffer trying to re-earn their love. You will struggle with serious depression. You will miss the man you married, even as you are still married to him. You will miss him, because he will no longer emotionally be there. You will have hurt him too much. A part of you will die with him. A dream will die with him. He will leave you, and a part of you will be permanently severed. You will walk around feeling like your arm was cut off. When you talk to him, on those few occasions, you will savor hearing his voice. You will save voice messages, even if he just tells you something as simple as," Yes, that so and so's car parked in the spot."

You will think back on your life together, and realize all the ways that you were not who you should have been to him. You will realize how much you let him down. You will wish you could rewind time and live it over, do it again, differently. You will also mourn that this is who you are... a person who has acted in these ways. You will wish that love could be a gift, unconditional. You will mourn that it is not. You will mourn that you were not.

None of your attempts will stop the divorce. He has made up his mind. And you will grieve.

You want sympathy?

No.

Sympathy is about recognizing that every one of us is human, and that every one of us makes mistakes. Please refrain from posting emotionally abusive comments on my thread.

HopingHeart,
Well you have it with me. My husband abused me in the worst way, emotionally, verbally, cheating on me, lying to me, standing me up week after week, month after month, taking me for over $50,000 so that I will lose my home, and finally, abandoning me without even having the decency to let me know. I divorced him as he really left me no option...and still he never came home, never attempted to save our marriage...all of this after I was a wonderful wife to him. I don't think I could have done anything differently except to have not married him in the first place. He broke my heart beyond what I ever would have imagined possible. I would have given anything had he shown the remorse you are.

When one sees their mistakes and regrets them, it gives that person a chance to change and grow. You have faced the flaws within yourself that preempt that change, and even though your husband may not give you another chance and you have consequences to bear, you can still use those lessons to go on and be a better person and live a good life from here forward. Use what you have gone through as a teaching lesson for yourself and others so that others can be spared.

The worst thing in the world is not our failures, the worst thing in the world is not learning from them. Ask God's forgiveness and direction, forgive yourself and move on.

Peace to you!

MB allows BSs and FBSs to process and work through their WS' and FWS's A, and part of how I see MB do that is by allowing that process to happen by permitting a certain amount of emotional and verbal abuse from BS's and FBS's in their comments and posts. There is a view that some emotional/verbal abuse is therapeutic for BSs.

But then...

But then, some BSs seek out FWS's posts, and they verbally and emotionally abuse them, ON THEIR OWN THREADS. That is not right. When I have experienced this, the moderators have often done nothing... It is in direct contradiction with Dr. Harley's book on LoveBusters...

I am a human being with feelings, and no matter my mistakes, I am worthwhile and matter. Evey human being should be treated with honor and integrity. In my own life, I have worked hard to regain my integrity. I don't have to prove that to any of you. And anyone wanting to throw tomatoes at me, I ask, what is going on inside of you that you want to do that? The hate, the bitterness? What is going on inside of you? Because at that point, it's not about me, my actions, but about you.... It's not about whether I'm a person of integrity, but about your anger, your hostility, your hardness of heart, your desire for revenge. I am not your punching bag. What's going on with you that you would attack an innocent person who has done nothing to you? That you would intentionally post knowingly hurtful comments? What's going on there?

Now kindly, take what is going on there, and POST YOUR OWN THREAD. Don't post your emotional processing and internal guck on my thread. Stop projecting on to me. I am not your BS or FBS. I am not your counselor and my role here is not to process your guk for you. I have come here for my own healing. Don't make my thread about YOU.

You changed your sig line BLAMING your XBH.

Did you not?

Hi Vows4Good!
I am so sorry to hear of how your H hurt you, cheated on you.... It must have been very, very hard to go through. I get so sad when I hear stories like yours. You didn't deserve that. You should have been loved and cherished. Validated and comforted. You deserved to hear from your H's own words that he failed you grieviously with his actions, his words, and behavior, and that you deserved so much more, and that he is so sorry. I am sorry that that never happened. =( That must be so hard.

I am truly sorry for all the stupid things I did. And they WERE STUPID. So stupid. Really, a form of sabotage, of ruining the beautiful, ruining the best and most worthwhile things... ruining trust, ruining the priceless gift of love that H had given me.

I have never gotten his heart back after that. =( It is amazing how your whole life can change because of something stupid you do.

It took me a LONG time to get my integrity back. With the A, I learned how to lie. I had never really lied before... but I became this duplicitous person... To become transparent again, to not "hide" things, anything, was so difficult. Going down the road of an A corrupts you. It's like digging out thorn bushes to clear the ground again.

I don't believe H ever believed that I could "clear the ground", become a person of integrity again. It is doable, but it is very costly. I have had to come to terms with what I have done. How I have hurt H. What I have taken from him. How I have damaged the M. I have had to accept the repurcussions, too. The distance in our M has been torture in and of itself. The loss of H as my companion. It became evident to me that I had been demoted... that's why I think the thing with his alcoholic parents happened, where he put them first over me... it killed me to experience it. I had put someone above him, and now he put someone above me in our marriage.

I know that God has forgiven me, even when I have been unable to forgive myself. I think that is the only way I made it through.

H keeps talking about divorce. Is it possible anything is left? We are separated, he left and moved to another state. I have kept hoping and praying... but finally... I am starting to prepare to move on. He has said he has made up his mind, he is divorcing me. He hasn't started the process, but that is because of current monetary constraints (splitting up our estate will be a task..)
I understand that he cannot forgive my mistakes. Or maybe he can forgive them, but not trust again. I am not good at recognizing when I should move on.

I know what I cannot do, though... I have felt like a dog, begging for scraps, begging for love and attention, begging to be noticed by H. The A and all my other mistakes were reasons he withheld from me. I cannot live like that any more. A life of deprivation... where my own husband is not excited to see me, where he doesn't come home after work, where he doesn't answer my calls... I cannot live in isolation like that any more in my marriage...

Pariah,
Explaining context is not casting blame. Seems you're doing some false dichotomizing...

Wikipedia False Dichotomy Wikipedia on false dichotomies

So are you going to get half?

If so he still loses and you still win and keep the trophy of your adultery.

Pariah, please leave me alone. I've already asked you kindly to not post degrading comments on my thread.

I think also you should explore passive aggressive disorder. The way you are acting with me is really concerning me and this type of behavior has damaging consequences to relationships when it comes out...

Btw, what you are doing is called "emotional abuse".

HH, Until Pariah's last post where he said you'd "keep the trophy of your adultery" he didn't say anything remotely emotionally abusive. And, the last phrase may have been insulting, but it wasn't abusive in my book. I beg you, please don't bandy the word "abuse" about. If you do, it will lose meaning. If anything can be abuse, nothing is abuse. Besides, you just insulted him right back. That's probably not going to help.

What did you hope to accomplish when you posted your letter to yourself? I'm nto sure what you want, but I will offer you a little insight. If you truly repent, accept God's forgivenss and start again. There will be people who won't be able to get past your infidelity, no matter how blamelessly you live the rest of your life. But that won't matter because they won't be part of your life, and the brief times they touch your life will serve as reminder.

I agree.

fwiw, I'd rather hear what you've learned, than what you're stuck with.

Hopingheart,
I'm not familiar with you story and I'm sorry for your pain. BS and WS - the ones interested in R - all wish we could go back and change things. But we can't. We can only control the now and our future.



Are you grieving the loss of the person you used to be and now regret the person you've become?

Quoting from:
Emotional Abuse definition link

Basic Needs in Relationships

If you have been involved in emotionally abusive relationships, you may not have a clear idea of what a healthy relationship is like. Evna (1992) suggests the following as basic needs in a relationship for you and your partner: (I have changed this from "rights" to "needs" and made other small changes- S.Hein)

* The need for good will from the others.
* The need for emotional support.
* The need to be heard by the other and to be responded to with respect and acceptance
* The need to have your own view, even if others have a different view.
* The need to have your feelings and experience acknowledged as real.
* The need to receive a sincere apology for any jokes or actions you find offensive.
* The need for clear, honest and informative answers to questions about what affects you.
* The need to for freedom from accusation, interrogation and blame.
* The need to live free from criticism and judgment.
* The need to have your work and your interests respected.
* The need for encouragement.
* The need for freedom from emotional and physical threat.
* The need for freedom from from angry outburst and rage.
* The need for freedom from labels which devalue you.
* The need to be respectfully asked rather than ordered.
* The need to have your final decisions accepted.
* The need for privacy at times.

-----
Pariah came out and for no reason, posted on my thread to tell me that he was not going to give me sympathy. That's fine, I don't mind, but the act of him posting it onto my thread, when obviously I am grieving and sympathy is what most need, as a human being, not an adulteress (which is what he marginalized me into), and he threw it in my face... both passive aggressive and emotionally abusive. I think Pariah knew what he was doing.. it was NOT accidental on his part.

Emotional abuse is REAL. Please don't tell me I don't know what emotional abuse is. I know what it is, experienced it intimately in my marriage from my H. I also did my own share of damage and hurt. It's NOT okay for Pariah to throw mud at me.

He seems angry. Fine. But what people DO with anger can be damaging. He did not post an say, "Reading your post makes me feel angry and makes me think about my exW's affair". No-- instead, he lashed out at me. And OUCH. It hurt. It was not called for and it was emotionally abusive. Pariah doesn't even know me, yet he is treating me with disrespect. It is not honoring another person, not showing them respect to tell someone point blank (in written words) that you are going to withhold sympathy. That's deliberately taunting someone.. and yes.. that is abusive.

Pariah, I am NOT your exW. You don't know anything about me. You don't know my heart or my character, and because I made a mistake in my past does not make you an authority on my character in any way. It is enough that I have expressed hurt to your comments and asked you to stop that you should KNOW that your comments are hurtful and abusive.

Hi gg6145,

I am not regretting who I've become. I like who I am now. I am a person of integrity, I live my life intentionally, with purpose and with meaning. I am grieving the loss of my marriage. I am grieving bad decisions on my part. I am grieving that my husband will not forgive me.

Sometimes it feels that people don't really through my threads.. not sure if you did or not. I talked about regaining integrity. I have regained integrity. That's not a facade, or a fake thing. It's bonafide and real. Integrity addresses trustworthiness, honor, being who you seem. Integrity is not the same thing as being legalistic, or not doing "wrong" things out of a legalistic orientation. Honor is about doing what is right because it is right, not because one feels obligated to, or because loss is experienced otherwise.

I like who I am. Who I am is not who I was four years ago in the A. People change. They change either intentionally, guiding and stewarding their own growth, or they change accidentally. But people change all the time.. Staying the same is an illusion. That's why intentionality matters.

Pariah has a bit of passive aggressive stuff going on. I'm not aiming to insult, I'm just observing. The under the cuff remarks are passive aggressiveness. And passive aggressiveness is a disorder. It's a personality disorder--- a pattern so a part of a person's personality that without intentional work aimed specifically at it it is unlikely to stop. His passive aggressiveness has been pretty consistent on MB postings... Anger is one thing. But there are healthy ways to express the anger, and passive aggressiveness is not one of them.

HH, withholding sympathy is NOT abusive. If Pariah had called you a slut, a tramp, or names, that would have been insulting, but I really don't think it reaches the level of beating you silly. By the nature of the venue, it's not pervasive.

The "needs" are what is needed for a healthy relationship. As far as I know, you aren't in a relationship with Pariah, so they don't apply. Also, the lack of having those needs met is not necessarily abuse. Sometimes, it may be abuse, but "emotional abuse" is a very vague, wobbly thing. Far too many people are quick to label their spouse's behavior or other's behavior as abusive, when in fact, it is simply obnoxious, selfish, manipulative or uncomfortable.

As for grieving, it's a long road that you have to walk alone. In my own experience, sympathy has not been productive. It is what it is. I have to accept it, adjust and move on. My experience in grieving may make me less "sympathetic" to your journey. Grief is a part of life, and we all need to accept it. All relationships come to an end at some point. Our job is to grow and adjust. If you are stuck, and can't get to the "accpetabce" phase of grief, maybe talking with someone would help. I know some grief groups will take anyone experiencing loss, but on other boards, I've heard widows complain about people who are grieving divorce, so I don't recommend that.

I'm not passive aggressive, I made my point loud and clear. I am usually full on clear about my feelings.

I don't believe you, no matter how much you have tried to convince yourself that everything is all fine now.

It's like the car that has been stolen, wrecked and brought to some third rate body shop and the owner told that it's better than it was before it was stolen when it is returned.

The paint don't match and you can see every glop of Bondo®.

If you have truly repented, gotten right with your god, then you will allow him his right as defined in the book to divorce you and live his life and be happy for him with his decision.

Hi Greengables,
I didn't say I was in a relationship with Pariah... the link was addressing things people need from interactions with others--- I merely pointed them out as it's easier to delineate "healthy" interactions than "unhealthy" ones.

I do not feel heard at all... I am not sure why.

Additionally, look at Pariah's comment above. Pariah doesn't know ANYTHING about me, yet he has directly invalidated the growth I had said I have done--- that is emotional abuse. And telling me he doesn't believe me---- so thus calling me a liar--- that is verbal abuse. Pariah obviously has a following-- otherwise I just can't make sense of why no one else is saying anything. Since I've studied abuse, I feel confident that my definition is not the issue. Additionally, regardless what it's called, his comments have evidently been hurtful, but he has not apologized for putting down a total stranger--- hurting a total stranger--- and even continues to do so in his post immediately preceding mine.

I also wonder if many people do not recognize emotional abuse because they participate in it--- because they emotionally abuse others, and rationalize to themselves why it's not abuse--- thus the rationalizations coming out on my thread!

You will be interested to know that in the past when I have addressed abusiveness on the part of MBers, that MY HUSBAND likewise expressed that YES the MBers were abusive---- so it makes me think that some believe that because I am a FWS that I "deserve" it.

I didn't realize that the MB forum was only for BSs. I thought it was for healing. I certainly didn't realize it was a place for condemnation.

Pariah, if you were a bit more familiar with Christianity, you'd also know that God can redeem people and change their hearts, and make them new... change can happen, change does happen..

I got a full double barreled dose of your version of Christianity.

Where the victim is blamed and the guilty is encouraged that it wasn't their fault.

Besides, repentance is for people who wish to receive salvation, not a get out of hell free card carte blanche to sin with no consequences.

You are suffering the consequences of your blatant sin in the face of God.

I know my sin, I accept it and the consequences even though I am forgiven, it doesn't mean I won't suffer the repercussions.

I can honestly say that I've felt the hand of God himself on my short visit to the other side and am no longer blinded by the selfish wants of putting him in a thimble to do my bidding like some sort of supernatural pez dispenser.

What you are going to have to do is come to accept that you and you alone destroyed your marriage, you need to settle HIS demands even if it means he takes everything so your acount is cleared in the debt to him in your sin. As when you KNOW better to commit adultery, you must settle your account with your accuser before it gets sent to the Judge himself as he can still hand you over to the jailer and off to the pit you go.

HH, MB has always been a place than condemns certain behaviors. I don't think anyone is condemning you, although we are condemning your actions. For the sake of people who are physical abused, sexually abused, and egregiously mentally abused, I condemn labeling basic insults or an unwillingness to offer support as abuse. If we put that on the same level as someone who gets his head smashed in, or someone who is somonized with a knife, we diminish those experiences. When people hear "He abused her" they'll no longer have a sense of horror.

We hear you that you've changed. But the tone of your first post was "Woe is me." It also was structured in such a way that it sounded like you were predestined to have an affair, and it was out of your control. Much of life is far beyond our control, but not that. Healing and recovery are about a lot more than feeling good and getting support. There's a lot of accountability involved. Pariah's ending thought in his next to last post was a good one, and I think addressed on issue that had been niggling at me. If you have really changed, respect and honor his decision. So far, it doesn't seem as if you are respecting your husband's decision and boundary.

HH, here's what I read in your posts. A person who regrets what she did, wishes she hadn't, learned from it. But also a person who prefers to hang things on others (like labels) to lessen her load. A person who states his belief to you is not abusive just because it condemns you for an ACTION you took.

An abusive person purposefully seeks to manipulate you through lies, guilt and coercion. Pariah does none of that. He simply says he does not believe you. That is not abusive.

If you can't move past this need to categorize other people, which you seem to do a lot - and which enabled you to have an affair in the first place, you will never reach true understanding and love of yourself and others. Categorization is a self-protection step that people use to raise themselves and/or lower others; nothing more. Look that up in the professional material, and it may help you understand what you've probably been doing your whole life. It's a crutch. It keeps you from reaching the truth.

HH-

Hope you are doing better. I have read your thread and really feel for you. It is obvious that you really love your husband and are sorry for what happenned and that you are willing to do the work..problem is he isn't there to do it. So I am happy that you are still around on MB and standing up for yourself. Don't let them beat you up! Also, I don't think you are explainiing away your affair and I do believe you were emotionally abused and I can definitely relate. I also think that everyone needs love and you can only be abused and set aside for so long before you take comfort elsewhere. You may not even like it and regret it immediately after, but it is human nature to want to be loved. Before all the MB big mouths start commenting, I am not saying that she was right..just that I can understand.

Also, what does your husband do for a living? (what kind of company) I hope that you find happiness. God Bless

There inlies the cusp.

Pariah,

You bend the gospel message to your aim of beating me with it...

You said:
"you must settle your account with your accuser before it gets sent to the Judge himself as he can still hand you over to the jailer and off to the pit you go."

Where is this in the Bible? Please don't quote me Old Testament, either. Right standing before God can not be "earned" as you are proposing. What you are proposing might be "religion", but it is not the Gospel.

"Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it." Ephesians 2:9

Additionally, God is the God of grace.
"He has not punished us for all our sins, nor does he deal with us as we deserve." Psalm 103:10

If you remember the story of the unforgiving debtor (Matthew 18:21-35), the King forgave his servant a debt worth more than a lifetime's work instead of throwing the servant in jail, but then the servant turned around and had a fellow servant jailed for a paltry amount his fellow servant owed him. Jesus said to this, "Shouldn't you have mercy on your fellow servant, just as I had mercy on you? Then the angry King sent the man to prison until he had paid every penny. That's what my heavenly Father will do to you if you refuse to forgive your brothers and sisters in your heart."

Pariah, sounds like you have your own agenda here, when you say:

"you need to settle HIS demands even if it means he takes everything so your acount is cleared in the debt to him in your sin."

No it doesn't... it doesn't mean that. The two are not connected at all. I worked hard with my H in business, sacrificed together for our goals, and whatever my H and I have is both of ours. The truth is, this isn't a "cash" issue. You cannot "buy" forgiveness.

Plus, as I've mentioned again and again, and yet people through the length of time I've posted on MB have conveniently ignored, H is NOT leaving me because of the A.... the reasons he left me are multi-faceted. They are related to issues of his alcoholic parents. (Why I mentioned that info in my sig line). They are related to conflict resolution issues. The A is a part of why his feelings toward me are damaged, but the A is just a part.

You keep judging, judging, judging. You give me all these great reasons WHY you're judging me, but in the end, they are just not true. I am not an adulteress, I am not having an affair, I am a person of integrity and none of that changes whether or not you believe it. It feels to me that from your experience with one person (your exW) that you believe people can't change. You keep insisting that I haven't changed. There is just no reasonable way that you could know. Have you asked my closest friends what my heart is like? Have you asked my pastor or my counselor? Have you taken first hand testimony from me? (in fact, you have called my own words a lie...)

It seems nothing you have said has stemmed anywhere but from how you feel, and you projected those beliefs onto me.

Like I said before, this is my thread to talk about MY divorce, not your thread to talk about why you don't think people can change, specifically someone you don't know at all personally (me).

You wrote:

"Besides, repentance is for people who wish to receive salvation, not a get out of hell free card carte blanche to sin with no consequences."

I view it differently. For me, repentance is NOT about those who wish to receive salvation (selfish orientation) but about having a personal and committed relationship with God. Knowing and loving and worshiping God for who he is, NOT what I get out of it. Knowing God changes who you are. Knowing God doesn't mean you won't ever make mistakes; knowing God transforms who you are, so that your actions change, because you've become a different person.

You also wrote:

"You are suffering the consequences of your blatant sin in the face of God."

Are you referring to your abusive judgments to me as part of the "consequences"? I've been addressing how the things you are writing are abusive--- aimed at pushing me down. They are life-invalidating, non-loving words. They also don't seek out truth (not concerned with who I really am, but with your own agenda).

I have accepted the consequences of my decisions. That doesn't mean they are not painful. That does not mean I'm not going to write about them, process them. However, I fail to see what your mud-slinging has anything at all to do with this...

At any point, you can say, "I was projecting, I'm sorry" but instead you keep defending why your mud-slinging is somehow justified. The hole gets bigger and bigger. I am merely addressing your statements and you just keep digging. You can choose to stop at any point. Certainly putting me down just because you can is not really helping with anything. It's creating this false, artificial conflict that has nothing to do with me, other than you chose to bring it on my thread, like a windstorm. It's not helping, not facilitating growth, recovery, etc. I don't know, maybe in some way you feel it is helping you. In any case, that is why I asked that you post on your own thread, not mine. What you've written is not about me, it's about you and your projections. Those are valid and worthwhile exploring, but not on my thread, because they are not about me. They are about you. So please start your own thread and leave mine alone.

Greengables,

There are different kinds of abuse. There is physical abuse, and there is psychological abuse. Psychological abuse is a bona fide abuse category recognized by the American Psychological Association. Awareness of psychological abuse is increasing, but sadly many people are still unfamiliar with concepts of what constitutes psychological abuse. Increasing the awareness of psychological abuse in our society is an important part in the fight against psychological abuse. Additionally, psychological abuse can often have far longer lasting effects on the individual than physical abuse, as noted by studies. Psychological abuse is not something to laugh at.

I am not suggesting that we downplay the role of physical abuse in our society. I am suggesting that we decrease our tolerance of psychological abuse. To suggest that psychological abuse is not deeply damaging is to invalidate and marginalize the victim.
The degree of abuse also varies. Something is not deemed non-abusive merely because the abuse was light. If I slap someone and it doesn't leave a mark, is that not abuse? If I make demeaning, hurtful statements toward someone while knowingly avoiding the use of name-calling, is that not abuse? Abuse can be subtle too. I understand that a broader definition of abuse that allows for psychological abuse (as the APA allows) runs the potential of being used too liberally, but my question is, exactly why should anyone be putting another person down? How did we come to not care how our intentional actions affects others? Why do we believe it is ok to invalidate and demean other people?

I take ownership of what I wrote, but I cannot take ownership of the assumptions you placed on it. I did not insinuate that I was predestined to have an affair, although I can see how some one could read that into it. If someone read my post with an orientation of "she's blaming others", then I can see how someone might interpret my post that way. However, I did not blame in the post, and if anything I talked about the actions I would take/took. Please own your assumptions and do not put them on me, as I never agreed with them in any way.

Also, I have taken accountability. Presuming I haven't is something you pushed onto me. It was your speculation, not my truth. If you asked me about it, instead of assuming, I would have shared with you about it.

I wrote my post for support. Perhaps I should have specified that.

I guess I'm really confused here... first because I am having/sensing doubts within myself around Pariah statement (about respecting and honoring my husband's decision) and uncertain (even as I read it from Pariah) where it came from. I hadn't said I wasn't going to honor his decision, and neither am I certain exactly what not honoring it would look like. What would it look like? Would not being ok with the decision mean "not honoring" it? I am totally confused. Additionally, I didn't write anything about not honoring his decision... In my M with H, honoring H's decisions was never an issue. I sought to honor his choices, his preferences. My experience in my M was one where H bulldozed past my choices and desires, trying to make me into who he wanted me to be (to work a certain job he thought I should work, to have a certain physical appearance requiring an incredible amount of exercise, etc), not the other way around. I feel I have not done anything to "not honor" his desire to divorce. Just because I don't feel ok with the divorce does not mean I am "not honoring" my husband's decision. How I feel about it is my experience...It's not wrong or right, it just is. I can't expect that many people who's spouses divorce them feel ok with it. Does that mean they are "not honoring" their spouses decision?

Is there something in particular that I have said that suggests I am not honoring my husband's choices?

Catperson,
?
I am not debating the definition of emotional/verbal abuse. I know what it is.

Telling someone they are lying is a form of marginalization/invalidation, which is emotional abuse (please look it up. This is not debated, this is acknowledged across the board in psychology.)

I guess what I don't understand is why YOU are categorizing me by talking to me as if I were the same person I was a year ago, two years ago, etc.

Pariah is doing this exact "categorization" you are talking about it, and in a very abusive way. The affair happened years ago. I am not an adulteress. But by continuing to treat me as if I am, he can continue to be abusive to me with his words, and "justify" them by pointing to my affair. Really, from what I'm sensing inside, I do not feel his words are coming from a place of caring, of love, of concern for me, but from a place of anger, spite, condemnation, judgment. His words are abusive, and from what I am sensing I do not believe he intends anything other than to hurt me with them. I think he knows what he intends. I don't think anyone else needs to defend him. He can speak for himself if he wishes on this... He knows his heart and I am certainly sensing something unloving going on in his words.

Luke 12:58
When you are on the way to court with your accuser, try to settle the matter before you get there. Otherwise, your accuser may drag you before the judge, who will hand you over to an officer, who will throw you into prison.

No, I SAID that I didn't believe you. There was no evidence to the contrary as you changed your sig line that placed BLAME on your STBXBH.

HH,

The National Coalition against domestic violence defines psychological abuse as
•
Denying the victim access to money or
economic support.
• Harassing the victim at work or school.
• Threatening to injure, permanently
disfigure, or kill the victim and/or loved
ones.
• Damaging the victim’s property.
• Preventing the victim from eating,
sleeping, or leaving her place of
residence.
• Threatening or physically abusing the
family pet.

I'm pretty sure that none of this occurred here. Under your definition people can't even disagree with you.

Hi 6yearsleft,
The National Coalition against domestic violence limits its definition to the realm of domestic violence. It is not a comprehensive definition.

I fail to see why the focus of posters has been on the definition of emotional/psychological abuse and not on the hurtful behavior I have been addressing from Pariah. Some people that are alcoholics, like my in-laws, insist they are not alcoholics. Either way, fine, call it something else, call it a "drinking problem", but Pariah's words are harrassing, bullying, I've clearly shared that they are hurtful, and he has even continued to use Bible verses as a way to harrass me further.

I wonder how many people have failed marriages solely because they emotionally abused their spouses? Trust me, loud and clear, I know and and learned what emotional abuse and psychological abuse is. Why? Because that is the reason my husband says he left me. He says he left me because I was abusive to him, NOT because of the A. And like a recovering alcoholic who can recognize another alcoholic 100 feet away, or a recovering sex addict who knows when another sex addict is making excuses, I most certainly can recognize emotional and psychological abuse. I was emotionally and verbally abused as a child, and am not going to go along with it any more. I'm not going to give it (no matter what excuse I think I have, whatever fancy rationalization for why it's not abuse) and I not going to receive it if I have the choice.

Notice that Pariah did not address my request. I asked about the state of his heart--- was his intention to hurt me? Was he being spiteful? --because that tells you a lot about whether something is abusive...

Pariah, this is out of context... does not apply to my situation because it's not ABOUT my situation...

LOL I wonder if you're even really reading what I'm writing.. I just don't know what to think.

My husband is not my "accuser". The issue of the affair HAS been addressed in my M. This passage in the Bible is not talking about adultery, it's talking about issues that can be settled in court. It's talking about making peace, seeking a settlement with the other person.

You took it out of context in your first mention of it...

I am concerned because it feels to me that you are so FOCUSED on attacking me that you will use anything to do it. And like I said before, it doesn't feel like it has anything to do with me.

You also wrote that I changed my sig line. Yes, I changed my sig line, and NO I don't have to prove anything to you. You are not my judge and jury. However, if you try to be, I will address it. I will address the condemnation, and I will address the verbal abuse.

I already stated that my sig line shared about my H's history and his alcoholic parents because that was part of the context (the context in the most recent year). The affair was FOUR YEARS AGO. The alcoholic parents was a part of this year. It was relevant.
And I did not in any way use "blaming" language. You speculated, you read into it, and you are the only one responsible for your false speculations. And then you projected them onto me, and attacked me because of them.

I think maybe part of you gets some kind of twisted reward in identifying as a BS. I admit, I am only speculating here, so throw this out the window, if you want, but if you have stayed at the same place for 3 years (not sure if I have the time right) after your exW's A, then it seems you are stuck in an awfully torturous rut. And to not move from it... to simmer in it...

I remember reading a book by Dr. Phil, where he talked about how even staying in the role of victim, no matter how unpleasant, could be serving some type of other purpose, giving us some type of reward, that in some way was safer that moving away or out of the position. Maybe the familiarity, the safety of the known... I don't know. But the book was profound for me. I can't help wondering if something like that is going on there.

Pariah, you matter. I am sorry your exW screwed you over. It was wrong in the worst way possible. You deserved MUCH better. But this bitterness you're carrying, this bitterness you're throwing around at me and likely others... this bitterness is killing your life. It's wasting you away. You matter. You are loveable and worthy and you matter. Stop wasting your time like this. Stop identifying yourself like this. Your exW screwed you over, but you are much more than a "victim". You have this gorgeous thing called life, the opportunity to form new and meaningful relationships, and you deserve more than sulking and hating every WS or FWS that comes along on MB. You will also fry your energy trying to pick them apart. Escape from it. Say no to it. Reclaim your life. Don't waste your energy on this post. You matter and you should do something that will build you up not tear you down. Invest in yourself. Beating me up is not part of it.

HH, I think the reason we're debating semantics is because you accused someone of being abusive. To many of us, that is a very serious accusation. I see a big difference between insulting, mistreating and abusing. I'm not sure exactly what is meant by "invalidating." Too often this means any time someone won't agree.

Once again, I'm not sure what you wanted when you posted that first post. Did you want sympathy? MB isn't really a great place for sympathy. If you wanted it to be a warning to others, I think that would be great, and the post may benefit from "Don't do what I did." Finally, if you wanted ideas on how to move forward, I think that's what people have been offering. Some of the ideas may feel uncomfortable, but that's okay.

As for how many marriages end because of emotional abuse, I'd say pretty few. But, my definition of psychological abuse is like the one posted above. I beleive many marraiges end because of spouses being overly selfish or being self-less. I think a few end because of gross incompatibility. A very few end end because one spouse is evil.

HH, it's pretty obvious to everyone else here but you that he is posting because he thinks you have more work to do to improve your marriage. In other words, to help...

Why does the reason for her post matter so much. It was a note to herself, just that. She posted it and others can learn from her mistakes. She may have been looking for support or pity, if you choose not to give it then don't. There is no need to gang up on someone already hurting. The bullying on this forum is endless.

I am sure HH has more work to do as EVERYONE does, that is not a reason to attack or bully someone. Pariah has not tried to help HH in any way, shape or form. He has called her out and taunted her with upsetting comments. At least he chose a fitting name.


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pariah
pariah
–noun
1. an outcast.
2. any person or animal that is generally despised or avoided.
3. (initial capital letter) a member of a low caste in southern India and Burma.

Natalie, I have read EVERY one of your posts.

Why are you here? To cheerlead, to enable? Or you just another voyure that becomes intoxicated from the trouble and conflict of others? I've seen dozens of them come and go here.

I know verydamwell why I chose my name thankyouverymuch, leave your misandristic personal attacks out of it.

I was open and honest with HH and she took it personal and has been projectiong her continued abusive personality traits toward me with more and more fever.

My posts are none of your business nor is my reason for being on this forum. I certainly am not here to beat up on people already in pain, nor am I here to judge them. Apparently there are a LOT of people here for that sole purpose. I can't help but feel bad for someone that is pouring out their heart in sorrow, I will keep them in my prayers and give any advice that I may see as helpful. I will not try to do further harm and cannot stand by quietly while someone else does, its disgusting, shameful behavior and very telling why so many of the bs's are in that exact situation. So I guess yes I am here to cheerlead for anyone trying to heal. I will give support and encouragement to all who need it. THANKYOUVERYMUCH!!

I do think you need help and should get it instead of taking the anger out on others.

Natalie, I have read EVERY one of your posts.

ummm, ok?

You obviously have lots and lots of free time, good for you!

Is that the best you got, cupcake?

Your screen name would be better suited as Miss Anne Drist.

Pariah, I'm with you, it seems there's a bit of denial going on or perhaps a lack of objectivity.

Only the truth will set you free. Find the truth.

T/J

Booka, long time no see....not that you haven't been around...I just haven't seen you around.

End T/J

No hard feelings

****

roflmao!

I don't drop by here much and now provide my updates via email for some rather obvious reasons. If you would care for my updates, email me.

I do monitor a few users on here, Pariah and Holdingontoit as examples.

HH,

Definitions which are more specific and less general are better than those which are more general. You are expanding the term abuse to the point where it becomes useless in conversation. Perhaps you mean annoys or something less severe than the above definition of abuse.

For example, if I were to claim that my xWW raped me. It is not really helpful if I have some very broad definition of rape, like say any sex I ever regret at any time.

Yes. Abuse IS a very serious accusation. And abuse is wrong. That is why I addressed it. Verbal abuse is wrong. Insulting someone is a form of verbal abuse. I took a university course last semester that was titled Adult, Child, and Elder Abuse. That is how I know. If anyone would like to contend the definition of "verbal abuse" with PhDs, feel free to take it up with my professors, please feel free. I didn't make up the definition myself.

BTW "bullying" is a form of abuse as well.

Pariah's recent posts continue to be filled with verbal abuse.

****edit****

HH,

I'm going to leave you in your own world here. You may want to review the 22 logical fallacies from your classes in logic to see why the previous posting is not worth comment. Yes, lawyer talk from debate class but still worth a review.

I was wondering are you a therapist? Also just a point these forums are a discussion of equals, not a therapy session.

3natalie3,
[[[[[[[[]]]]]]]] (that's supposed to be a "hug"!) Thank you. =) Your words mean a lot. Thank you for your support.



Pariah,
You stated:
"I was open and honest with HH and she took it personal and has been projectiong her continued abusive personality traits toward me with more and more fever."

I "took it personal"? Do you really think you can throw insults at people and have it be anything other than personal? You seem to be in denial as far as how your words/behavior affect other people. I am not the only person who has objected to your abuse-- this seems to be a patterned behavior on your part. Additionally, it is shocking MB has not done anything more about it.

As I have addressed, you are projecting onto me your own feelings and speculations, likely from your own marriage, because it is clear they have nothing to do with me.

I just see lots of red flags going off, Pariah, when I look at your posts. Vindictiveness, antisocial, I don't know what's going on, maybe a bit of narcissism? because it just seems you want to make my post about you! When it doesn't have anything to do with you. You are perfectly content that you came onto my post and sabotaged it, and created all this "drama", which by this time has become comical in and of itself..


All these comments, attacking me, etc, have nothing to do with my post. Appropriate responses would have been people asking about what I have learned, commenting about what they have learned in their experience, sharing, encouraging, etc. Attacking, insulting, invalidating, projecting... these things I am shocked people felt ok posting, that they didn't feel ashamed by this behavior...since it is abuse.

****edit****

HH,

Now you are really in my area. You would never ever win such a lawsuit. I think if you filed against the site or Pariah, that my friends could get him damages from you for a frivolous lawsuit.

6yearsleft,

It is just not my belief that we should take the lowest common denominator when we are talking about moral or life-validating/life-invalidating issues. Should we only object to abuse when there is a bruise on someone? That is what some people would say. Since the definition of abuse would naturally defer to those (such as licensed psychologists and psychiatrists) who are qualified from their expertise to define it, it would make sense that that is where we would look. It makes sense that the "masses" is not where we would try to hone a definition. Many people may be verbally abusive to their children; that does not make it ok. We should not use the lowest common denominator in defining what is acceptable when it comes to something like verbal abuse, which studies have shown has far longer lasting impacts then physical abuse.

I would love to discuss logic with you. Is there a specific fallacy you are thinking about?

HH,

Physical abuse that maims or kills last forever.

I'm saying more specific words are better than lumping a whole range of behaviors into one bucket. That way we can actually discuss different behaviors quickly instead of listing them off.

Her are the logical fallacies I see you using commonly. I could not remember the proper name for two of the ones I saw.

Argumentum ad hominem
Argumentum ad misericordian
Argumentum ad nauseam
Argumentum ad numerum
Argumentum ad verecundiam
Dicto simpliciter
Naturalistic Fallacy
Red herring
Tu quoque

What does all this grandstanding about how mistreated you are - by an anonymous poster - have to do with you being someone who cheats and then feels miserable because her betrayed spouse leaves her?

6yearsleft,

********edit***********

Hi CatPerson,

I think these posts give all of us a peek inside the psyche of a person who cheats on their spouse. While it is frustrating to read it is also kind of fascinating.

HH - I can empathize with your perspective here. I have felt ganged up on here before too, and I think it's actually quite common for people to use this place to fight battles with their spouses and ex-spouses by proxy. I think you have some legitimate points.

However, I am going to ask you to reconsider some of your comments. It's a generally accepted notion here that offense and hurt stemming from the opinions of others is an internal issue best addressed by the offended. Pariah can call you every nasty name in the book - doesn't make it true. If what he's saying isn't true, then why give it any concern. I suspect that the admins here at MB generally take a hands off approach because it's a way to learn and practice some boundary enforcement. The TOS specifically ask MB members to put others on "ignore" before asking for mod or admin intervention.

I actually had one member e-stalk me from thread to thread, taunting me after I put him on ignore. At one point, he tried to make some nasty comments re to my divorce; kind of a no-no around here. The admins finally did step in, but not because I asked them to. He was derailing other peoples' threads trying to provoke me.

Now, instead of getting upset and complaining about abuse, I saw the situation for what it really was; his issues, not mine. His behavior said everything about him, and nothing about me.

FTR, I am a moderator on a couple of boards and well, and believe me, this stuff is sandbox level flaming compared to what happens at other sites. The point being, comparing here to anywhere else is apples and oranges and the appeal to authority argument (bigger boards, your college courses, et al) won't carry much water.

MB is it's own environment with it's own culture. You can claim superiority of knowledge through someone else's training all you want, but there are many schools of thought in any discipline, and there's always going to be someone out there with more knowledge or better credentials. That's not really a winning argument.

Catperson,
that is what I'm wondering. Why does the anonymous poster, Pariah, issue out all these mistreatments when they are unrelated to my letter?

I'm not "grandstanding". I have said no to Pariah's projections, shared that they are not about me, they are not accurate, and addressed his verbal abuse (because it was appropriate to do so, because I have worth and I matter and I am worth standing up for), and I have addressed how the stuff he's written is really not appropriate for my post (because it's not about my post!) LOL. Talk about hyjacking a thread. Pariah did not write about my feelings, he did not comment on my letter, all he did is throw mud at me.

It is getting clear to me that staying on topic is very difficult for people here. I write about one thing, and people make it about something other (which I did not write about). It is a thread jack. When I address how the comments aren't pertinent and ask for the verbal abuse to stop, instead I receive justifications as to why people are entitled to continue to be verbally abusive. I am very doubtful that the contributors in this really even have clear vision as to what they are doing.


6yearsLeft,

Thank you for the logical fallacy list. I don't really have the emotionally energy to address all of that, primarily because it would be a long paper just to show why my thoughts are valid, and frankly, I am not attempting to cement the definition of verbal abuse into some philosophical foundation to explain why it is what it is. We could never make progress as a people if everything we know (such as intangibles like a universal moral law) had to be qualified in order to be acknowledged and to live by it. Perhaps you have pointed out a huge blind spot of the legal system here...

Thank you for what you shared, however. Kind of shows how lawyers can manipulate the definition of good/bad in order to bend what is accepted as good and bad.

Seabird,

Yes, I understand what you wrote. I am addressing it, though, because it is verbal abuse,

********edit************

And the defintion I shared is textbook definition. I can't find my text right now, but it's in:
Barnett, O., Miller-Perrin, C., and Perrin, R. (2004). Family violence across the lifespan: An introduction (2nd ed.). San Francisco: Sage Publications. ISBN: 0761927565

So anyways, I see the situation for what it is. Yes, I know it's not my issues. I will STILL address the verbal abuse. And I still believe it does not belong on a forum.

********edit*********

HH,

Perhaps we should just make you the dictator and let you set the rules for all of us. (sarcasm). Of course, we need a logical discussion of what is right and wrong, and what is allowed. BTW - you just used another fallacy.

I prefer the world where we have actual discussions based on commonly agreed definitions to decide what is right. I'm done now, since you are not interested in logical discussion and do not have emotional energy.

I'm sorry HH, but based on your response to me, I do not think you understood me. Should I clarify?

Frankly, I see the constant appeal to authority, the vague suggestion of legal action, and the expression of victimization as alarming and not very credible.

I really think it might be good for you to step back, take a deep breath, and reconsider the things that you're saying.

Seabird,
interesting that you don't recognize your own logical fallacies. Look at how you just made a straw man out of what I said. Are you suggesting I write you a 20+ page paper?
Why don't you write it first, addressing these logical fallacies you claim I am making in detail?
Convenient for you to try to turn the tables, secure the "power" position by putting me on the defensive.
I did not say a rational discussion was not important. Ambiguously interpreting my words makes it convenient for how you will spin them. Anyways, this is a waste of my time. You want to argue, I don't have time for this. You want to be "right", good luck, go ahead.

********edit**********

HH,

I don't see the straw man in my post? You asked for the fallacies. Oh and yes I do value being right. You've made it clear that you do not value logical argument so, we can't really have a discussion. Now I really am done, I only put in this last response to be polite and not leave with an insult, even if it was a joke.

6yearsleft,
"You've made it clear that you do not value logical argument so, we can't really have a discussion."
I never said that. You are speculating, twisting my words.

The emotionally mature person can disengage at any point in an argument and know that their value has not diminished by doing so and their value may actually increase for doing so. The emotionally mature person knows that their path is true and does not have to argue that it is so. The emotionally mature person knows that they are where they are right now based fully on their personal choices. The emotionally mature person accepts the responsibility for their choices and the consequences of their choices. The emotionally mature is aware that they might not always choose wisely and has the ability to forgive themselves for the bad choices that they have made. The emotionally mature person learns from their bad choices and do not repeat them and makes a valid attempt to avoid making bad choices. The emotionally mature person plans for the best, worst, and most probable outcomes for both tactical and strategic issues. Others are simply reactive by emoting rather than apply logic, reason, and rationality. You have to choose emotional maturity as your path and work hard to attain it as it does not come naturally to most. It is infinitely harder to be emotionally mature than to simply emote.

Booka,
thank you. That was deeply meaningful =) Worthwhile too.

I see your appeal to authority in the references to the college course you took, and the professors at the university you took the class at.

You offered up a vague threat of legal repercussions if your claim of abuse at Pariah's hands didn't get addressed by the forum administrators.

And you've been claiming to be a victim of abuse from the get go, when really, all anyone is doing is questioning your judgment, or in Pariah's case, questioning your veracity.

Finally, I merely observed that the kind of "abuse" you claim to be sustaining here is rather very mild compared to what I've seen elsewhere. Your response was another appeal to authority based on the size of the forum you claim to be a moderator on.

Well it's too bad that people have reacted in this thread the way they have because all it appears to have served is sidetracking the original post and issue, which is, she regrets what she's done and is grieving the loss of her marriage. It's too bad no one has offered any constructive advice on how to try to recover her marriage. HH, I would put offensive posters on ignore and stick to reading constructive posts that might be more helpful to your situation. And FTR, I wish my ex would have been remorseful and wanted to salvage our marriage instead of what happened. To date, he never came home never gave up his GF, and hasn't made any attempt to pay me back what he stole from me. Concentrate on making yourself the best and healthiest person you can...I wouldn't "move on" until your husband actually divorces you. You will need a healing period anyway, so there's really no rush in moving on...just use this time to heal, learn, and grow. You needn't cow to him, that's not attractive anyway, but be the person you say you have become and don't worry about his or anyone else's reactions.

HH, I think Booka was talking about YOU.

My view:
victimization + self-absorption + need for instant gratification over another's benefit = cheater

When that cheater can leave it all behind and STOP having to be right, understood, accepted, a victim, but rather take on the onus for every harm they have done and enter a room with total humility...then that cheater is no longer a cheater.

Are you willing to work on that path? If so, you have a long way to go.

I am locking this thread.

Any questions can be directed to my email below.

*