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HH, MB has always been a place than condemns certain behaviors. I don't think anyone is condemning you, although we are condemning your actions. For the sake of people who are physical abused, sexually abused, and egregiously mentally abused, I condemn labeling basic insults or an unwillingness to offer support as abuse. If we put that on the same level as someone who gets his head smashed in, or someone who is somonized with a knife, we diminish those experiences. When people hear "He abused her" they'll no longer have a sense of horror.

We hear you that you've changed. But the tone of your first post was "Woe is me." It also was structured in such a way that it sounded like you were predestined to have an affair, and it was out of your control. Much of life is far beyond our control, but not that. Healing and recovery are about a lot more than feeling good and getting support. There's a lot of accountability involved. Pariah's ending thought in his next to last post was a good one, and I think addressed on issue that had been niggling at me. If you have really changed, respect and honor his decision. So far, it doesn't seem as if you are respecting your husband's decision and boundary.

Last edited by Greengables; 05/12/09 05:51 AM.

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HH, here's what I read in your posts. A person who regrets what she did, wishes she hadn't, learned from it. But also a person who prefers to hang things on others (like labels) to lessen her load. A person who states his belief to you is not abusive just because it condemns you for an ACTION you took.

An abusive person purposefully seeks to manipulate you through lies, guilt and coercion. Pariah does none of that. He simply says he does not believe you. That is not abusive.

If you can't move past this need to categorize other people, which you seem to do a lot - and which enabled you to have an affair in the first place, you will never reach true understanding and love of yourself and others. Categorization is a self-protection step that people use to raise themselves and/or lower others; nothing more. Look that up in the professional material, and it may help you understand what you've probably been doing your whole life. It's a crutch. It keeps you from reaching the truth.

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HH-

Hope you are doing better. I have read your thread and really feel for you. It is obvious that you really love your husband and are sorry for what happenned and that you are willing to do the work..problem is he isn't there to do it. So I am happy that you are still around on MB and standing up for yourself. Don't let them beat you up! Also, I don't think you are explainiing away your affair and I do believe you were emotionally abused and I can definitely relate. I also think that everyone needs love and you can only be abused and set aside for so long before you take comfort elsewhere. You may not even like it and regret it immediately after, but it is human nature to want to be loved. Before all the MB big mouths start commenting, I am not saying that she was right..just that I can understand.

Also, what does your husband do for a living? (what kind of company) I hope that you find happiness. God Bless

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Originally Posted By: 3natalie3
Also, I don't think



There inlies the cusp.


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Pariah,

You bend the gospel message to your aim of beating me with it...

You said:
"you must settle your account with your accuser before it gets sent to the Judge himself as he can still hand you over to the jailer and off to the pit you go."

Where is this in the Bible? Please don't quote me Old Testament, either. Right standing before God can not be "earned" as you are proposing. What you are proposing might be "religion", but it is not the Gospel.

"Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it." Ephesians 2:9

Additionally, God is the God of grace.
"He has not punished us for all our sins, nor does he deal with us as we deserve." Psalm 103:10

If you remember the story of the unforgiving debtor (Matthew 18:21-35), the King forgave his servant a debt worth more than a lifetime's work instead of throwing the servant in jail, but then the servant turned around and had a fellow servant jailed for a paltry amount his fellow servant owed him. Jesus said to this, "Shouldn't you have mercy on your fellow servant, just as I had mercy on you? Then the angry King sent the man to prison until he had paid every penny. That's what my heavenly Father will do to you if you refuse to forgive your brothers and sisters in your heart."

Pariah, sounds like you have your own agenda here, when you say:

"you need to settle HIS demands even if it means he takes everything so your acount is cleared in the debt to him in your sin."

No it doesn't... it doesn't mean that. The two are not connected at all. I worked hard with my H in business, sacrificed together for our goals, and whatever my H and I have is both of ours. The truth is, this isn't a "cash" issue. You cannot "buy" forgiveness.

Plus, as I've mentioned again and again, and yet people through the length of time I've posted on MB have conveniently ignored, H is NOT leaving me because of the A.... the reasons he left me are multi-faceted. They are related to issues of his alcoholic parents. (Why I mentioned that info in my sig line). They are related to conflict resolution issues. The A is a part of why his feelings toward me are damaged, but the A is just a part.

You keep judging, judging, judging. You give me all these great reasons WHY you're judging me, but in the end, they are just not true. I am not an adulteress, I am not having an affair, I am a person of integrity and none of that changes whether or not you believe it. It feels to me that from your experience with one person (your exW) that you believe people can't change. You keep insisting that I haven't changed. There is just no reasonable way that you could know. Have you asked my closest friends what my heart is like? Have you asked my pastor or my counselor? Have you taken first hand testimony from me? (in fact, you have called my own words a lie...)

It seems nothing you have said has stemmed anywhere but from how you feel, and you projected those beliefs onto me.

Like I said before, this is my thread to talk about MY divorce, not your thread to talk about why you don't think people can change, specifically someone you don't know at all personally (me).

You wrote:

"Besides, repentance is for people who wish to receive salvation, not a get out of hell free card carte blanche to sin with no consequences."

I view it differently. For me, repentance is NOT about those who wish to receive salvation (selfish orientation) but about having a personal and committed relationship with God. Knowing and loving and worshiping God for who he is, NOT what I get out of it. Knowing God changes who you are. Knowing God doesn't mean you won't ever make mistakes; knowing God transforms who you are, so that your actions change, because you've become a different person.

You also wrote:

"You are suffering the consequences of your blatant sin in the face of God."

Are you referring to your abusive judgments to me as part of the "consequences"? I've been addressing how the things you are writing are abusive--- aimed at pushing me down. They are life-invalidating, non-loving words. They also don't seek out truth (not concerned with who I really am, but with your own agenda).

I have accepted the consequences of my decisions. That doesn't mean they are not painful. That does not mean I'm not going to write about them, process them. However, I fail to see what your mud-slinging has anything at all to do with this...

At any point, you can say, "I was projecting, I'm sorry" but instead you keep defending why your mud-slinging is somehow justified. The hole gets bigger and bigger. I am merely addressing your statements and you just keep digging. You can choose to stop at any point. Certainly putting me down just because you can is not really helping with anything. It's creating this false, artificial conflict that has nothing to do with me, other than you chose to bring it on my thread, like a windstorm. It's not helping, not facilitating growth, recovery, etc. I don't know, maybe in some way you feel it is helping you. In any case, that is why I asked that you post on your own thread, not mine. What you've written is not about me, it's about you and your projections. Those are valid and worthwhile exploring, but not on my thread, because they are not about me. They are about you. So please start your own thread and leave mine alone.


"Jesus looked at them intently and said, 'Humanly speaking, it is impossible. But with God everything is possible.'" Matthew 19:26
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Greengables,

There are different kinds of abuse. There is physical abuse, and there is psychological abuse. Psychological abuse is a bona fide abuse category recognized by the American Psychological Association. Awareness of psychological abuse is increasing, but sadly many people are still unfamiliar with concepts of what constitutes psychological abuse. Increasing the awareness of psychological abuse in our society is an important part in the fight against psychological abuse. Additionally, psychological abuse can often have far longer lasting effects on the individual than physical abuse, as noted by studies. Psychological abuse is not something to laugh at.

I am not suggesting that we downplay the role of physical abuse in our society. I am suggesting that we decrease our tolerance of psychological abuse. To suggest that psychological abuse is not deeply damaging is to invalidate and marginalize the victim.
The degree of abuse also varies. Something is not deemed non-abusive merely because the abuse was light. If I slap someone and it doesn't leave a mark, is that not abuse? If I make demeaning, hurtful statements toward someone while knowingly avoiding the use of name-calling, is that not abuse? Abuse can be subtle too. I understand that a broader definition of abuse that allows for psychological abuse (as the APA allows) runs the potential of being used too liberally, but my question is, exactly why should anyone be putting another person down? How did we come to not care how our intentional actions affects others? Why do we believe it is ok to invalidate and demean other people?

Quote:
We hear you that you've changed. But the tone of your first post was "Woe is me." It also was structured in such a way that it sounded like you were predestined to have an affair, and it was out of your control. Much of life is far beyond our control, but not that. Healing and recovery are about a lot more than feeling good and getting support. There's a lot of accountability involved.

I take ownership of what I wrote, but I cannot take ownership of the assumptions you placed on it. I did not insinuate that I was predestined to have an affair, although I can see how some one could read that into it. If someone read my post with an orientation of "she's blaming others", then I can see how someone might interpret my post that way. However, I did not blame in the post, and if anything I talked about the actions I would take/took. Please own your assumptions and do not put them on me, as I never agreed with them in any way.

Also, I have taken accountability. Presuming I haven't is something you pushed onto me. It was your speculation, not my truth. If you asked me about it, instead of assuming, I would have shared with you about it.

I wrote my post for support. Perhaps I should have specified that.
Quote:
Pariah's ending thought in his next to last post was a good one, and I think addressed on issue that had been niggling at me. If you have really changed, respect and honor his decision. So far, it doesn't seem as if you are respecting your husband's decision and boundary.


I guess I'm really confused here... first because I am having/sensing doubts within myself around Pariah statement (about respecting and honoring my husband's decision) and uncertain (even as I read it from Pariah) where it came from. I hadn't said I wasn't going to honor his decision, and neither am I certain exactly what not honoring it would look like. What would it look like? Would not being ok with the decision mean "not honoring" it? I am totally confused. Additionally, I didn't write anything about not honoring his decision... In my M with H, honoring H's decisions was never an issue. I sought to honor his choices, his preferences. My experience in my M was one where H bulldozed past my choices and desires, trying to make me into who he wanted me to be (to work a certain job he thought I should work, to have a certain physical appearance requiring an incredible amount of exercise, etc), not the other way around. I feel I have not done anything to "not honor" his desire to divorce. Just because I don't feel ok with the divorce does not mean I am "not honoring" my husband's decision. How I feel about it is my experience...It's not wrong or right, it just is. I can't expect that many people who's spouses divorce them feel ok with it. Does that mean they are "not honoring" their spouses decision?

Is there something in particular that I have said that suggests I am not honoring my husband's choices?


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Catperson,
?
I am not debating the definition of emotional/verbal abuse. I know what it is.

Telling someone they are lying is a form of marginalization/invalidation, which is emotional abuse (please look it up. This is not debated, this is acknowledged across the board in psychology.)

I guess what I don't understand is why YOU are categorizing me by talking to me as if I were the same person I was a year ago, two years ago, etc.

Pariah is doing this exact "categorization" you are talking about it, and in a very abusive way. The affair happened years ago. I am not an adulteress. But by continuing to treat me as if I am, he can continue to be abusive to me with his words, and "justify" them by pointing to my affair. Really, from what I'm sensing inside, I do not feel his words are coming from a place of caring, of love, of concern for me, but from a place of anger, spite, condemnation, judgment. His words are abusive, and from what I am sensing I do not believe he intends anything other than to hurt me with them. I think he knows what he intends. I don't think anyone else needs to defend him. He can speak for himself if he wishes on this... He knows his heart and I am certainly sensing something unloving going on in his words.


"Jesus looked at them intently and said, 'Humanly speaking, it is impossible. But with God everything is possible.'" Matthew 19:26
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Originally Posted By: HopingHeart
Pariah,

You bend the gospel message to your aim of beating me with it...

You said:
"you must settle your account with your accuser before it gets sent to the Judge himself as he can still hand you over to the jailer and off to the pit you go."

Where is this in the Bible? Please don't quote me Old Testament, either. Right standing before God can not be "earned" as you are proposing. What you are proposing might be "religion", but it is not the Gospel.



Luke 12:58
When you are on the way to court with your accuser, try to settle the matter before you get there. Otherwise, your accuser may drag you before the judge, who will hand you over to an officer, who will throw you into prison.


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Originally Posted By: HopingHeart


Telling someone they are lying is a form of marginalization/invalidation, which is emotional abuse (please look it up.


No, I SAID that I didn't believe you. There was no evidence to the contrary as you changed your sig line that placed BLAME on your STBXBH.


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HH,

The National Coalition against domestic violence defines psychological abuse as

Denying the victim access to money or
economic support.
• Harassing the victim at work or school.
• Threatening to injure, permanently
disfigure, or kill the victim and/or loved
ones.
• Damaging the victim’s property.
• Preventing the victim from eating,
sleeping, or leaving her place of
residence.
• Threatening or physically abusing the
family pet.

I'm pretty sure that none of this occurred here. Under your definition people can't even disagree with you.


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Hi 6yearsleft,
The National Coalition against domestic violence limits its definition to the realm of domestic violence. It is not a comprehensive definition.

I fail to see why the focus of posters has been on the definition of emotional/psychological abuse and not on the hurtful behavior I have been addressing from Pariah. Some people that are alcoholics, like my in-laws, insist they are not alcoholics. Either way, fine, call it something else, call it a "drinking problem", but Pariah's words are harrassing, bullying, I've clearly shared that they are hurtful, and he has even continued to use Bible verses as a way to harrass me further.

I wonder how many people have failed marriages solely because they emotionally abused their spouses? Trust me, loud and clear, I know and and learned what emotional abuse and psychological abuse is. Why? Because that is the reason my husband says he left me. He says he left me because I was abusive to him, NOT because of the A. And like a recovering alcoholic who can recognize another alcoholic 100 feet away, or a recovering sex addict who knows when another sex addict is making excuses, I most certainly can recognize emotional and psychological abuse. I was emotionally and verbally abused as a child, and am not going to go along with it any more. I'm not going to give it (no matter what excuse I think I have, whatever fancy rationalization for why it's not abuse) and I not going to receive it if I have the choice.

Notice that Pariah did not address my request. I asked about the state of his heart--- was his intention to hurt me? Was he being spiteful? --because that tells you a lot about whether something is abusive...


"Jesus looked at them intently and said, 'Humanly speaking, it is impossible. But with God everything is possible.'" Matthew 19:26
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Originally Posted By: Pariah
Originally Posted By: HopingHeart
Pariah,

You bend the gospel message to your aim of beating me with it...

You said:
"you must settle your account with your accuser before it gets sent to the Judge himself as he can still hand you over to the jailer and off to the pit you go."

Where is this in the Bible? Please don't quote me Old Testament, either. Right standing before God can not be "earned" as you are proposing. What you are proposing might be "religion", but it is not the Gospel.



Luke 12:58
When you are on the way to court with your accuser, try to settle the matter before you get there. Otherwise, your accuser may drag you before the judge, who will hand you over to an officer, who will throw you into prison.


Pariah, this is out of context... does not apply to my situation because it's not ABOUT my situation...

LOL I wonder if you're even really reading what I'm writing.. I just don't know what to think.

My husband is not my "accuser". The issue of the affair HAS been addressed in my M. This passage in the Bible is not talking about adultery, it's talking about issues that can be settled in court. It's talking about making peace, seeking a settlement with the other person.

You took it out of context in your first mention of it...

I am concerned because it feels to me that you are so FOCUSED on attacking me that you will use anything to do it. And like I said before, it doesn't feel like it has anything to do with me.

You also wrote that I changed my sig line. Yes, I changed my sig line, and NO I don't have to prove anything to you. You are not my judge and jury. However, if you try to be, I will address it. I will address the condemnation, and I will address the verbal abuse.

I already stated that my sig line shared about my H's history and his alcoholic parents because that was part of the context (the context in the most recent year). The affair was FOUR YEARS AGO. The alcoholic parents was a part of this year. It was relevant.
And I did not in any way use "blaming" language. You speculated, you read into it, and you are the only one responsible for your false speculations. And then you projected them onto me, and attacked me because of them.

I think maybe part of you gets some kind of twisted reward in identifying as a BS. I admit, I am only speculating here, so throw this out the window, if you want, but if you have stayed at the same place for 3 years (not sure if I have the time right) after your exW's A, then it seems you are stuck in an awfully torturous rut. And to not move from it... to simmer in it...

I remember reading a book by Dr. Phil, where he talked about how even staying in the role of victim, no matter how unpleasant, could be serving some type of other purpose, giving us some type of reward, that in some way was safer that moving away or out of the position. Maybe the familiarity, the safety of the known... I don't know. But the book was profound for me. I can't help wondering if something like that is going on there.

Pariah, you matter. I am sorry your exW screwed you over. It was wrong in the worst way possible. You deserved MUCH better. But this bitterness you're carrying, this bitterness you're throwing around at me and likely others... this bitterness is killing your life. It's wasting you away. You matter. You are loveable and worthy and you matter. Stop wasting your time like this. Stop identifying yourself like this. Your exW screwed you over, but you are much more than a "victim". You have this gorgeous thing called life, the opportunity to form new and meaningful relationships, and you deserve more than sulking and hating every WS or FWS that comes along on MB. You will also fry your energy trying to pick them apart. Escape from it. Say no to it. Reclaim your life. Don't waste your energy on this post. You matter and you should do something that will build you up not tear you down. Invest in yourself. Beating me up is not part of it.


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HH, I think the reason we're debating semantics is because you accused someone of being abusive. To many of us, that is a very serious accusation. I see a big difference between insulting, mistreating and abusing. I'm not sure exactly what is meant by "invalidating." Too often this means any time someone won't agree.

Once again, I'm not sure what you wanted when you posted that first post. Did you want sympathy? MB isn't really a great place for sympathy. If you wanted it to be a warning to others, I think that would be great, and the post may benefit from "Don't do what I did." Finally, if you wanted ideas on how to move forward, I think that's what people have been offering. Some of the ideas may feel uncomfortable, but that's okay.

As for how many marriages end because of emotional abuse, I'd say pretty few. But, my definition of psychological abuse is like the one posted above. I beleive many marraiges end because of spouses being overly selfish or being self-less. I think a few end because of gross incompatibility. A very few end end because one spouse is evil.


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Quote:
Notice that Pariah did not address my request. I asked about the state of his heart--- was his intention to hurt me? Was he being spiteful? --because that tells you a lot about whether something is abusive...

HH, it's pretty obvious to everyone else here but you that he is posting because he thinks you have more work to do to improve your marriage. In other words, to help...

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Why does the reason for her post matter so much. It was a note to herself, just that. She posted it and others can learn from her mistakes. She may have been looking for support or pity, if you choose not to give it then don't. There is no need to gang up on someone already hurting. The bullying on this forum is endless.

I am sure HH has more work to do as EVERYONE does, that is not a reason to attack or bully someone. Pariah has not tried to help HH in any way, shape or form. He has called her out and taunted her with upsetting comments. At least he chose a fitting name.


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pariah
pariah
–noun
1. an outcast.
2. any person or animal that is generally despised or avoided.
3. (initial capital letter) a member of a low caste in southern India and Burma.

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Natalie, I have read EVERY one of your posts.

Why are you here? To cheerlead, to enable? Or you just another voyure that becomes intoxicated from the trouble and conflict of others? I've seen dozens of them come and go here.

I know verydamwell why I chose my name thankyouverymuch, leave your misandristic personal attacks out of it.

I was open and honest with HH and she took it personal and has been projectiong her continued abusive personality traits toward me with more and more fever.


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My posts are none of your business nor is my reason for being on this forum. I certainly am not here to beat up on people already in pain, nor am I here to judge them. Apparently there are a LOT of people here for that sole purpose. I can't help but feel bad for someone that is pouring out their heart in sorrow, I will keep them in my prayers and give any advice that I may see as helpful. I will not try to do further harm and cannot stand by quietly while someone else does, its disgusting, shameful behavior and very telling why so many of the bs's are in that exact situation. So I guess yes I am here to cheerlead for anyone trying to heal. I will give support and encouragement to all who need it. THANKYOUVERYMUCH!!

I do think you need help and should get it instead of taking the anger out on others.

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Natalie, I have read EVERY one of your posts.

ummm, ok?

You obviously have lots and lots of free time, good for you!

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Is that the best you got, cupcake?

Your screen name would be better suited as Miss Anne Drist.


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