Then why jump here and add a little snide once in while?

If you dont like it then give us peace and stay with boards that you do feel comfortable in.

We are all very aware of your dislikes for Lynn TH if you have a prob take it to another thread!!

I cannot speak for TH or Mom, but I ASKED TH to talk to GH...just like I ASKED him to speak to P on the General Board.

He has some insight to a wayward husband's mindset...and not many wh are brave enough or thickskinned enough to post.

LynnG is entitled to her opinion and feelings on this subject. Whether or not she has made the right decision in all of this is not for any of us to judge.

And vice versa regarding Mom and TH.

I dont have a prob with that, never said I did, but if you totally dislike a comment from a nother poster take it to another thread, be honest you know there will be a comeback, and the race will be on again.

It is one thing to go back and forth on a established member page, they know everyone here they know how think, what their veiws on, but keep the opionions of this site out of the newbies, they are looking for help, they are trying to find answer. The best we can do is tell our story and hear everyone story, from there they can decide.

Dont like someone elses story put your OPIONION on another thread and debate it our over there.

Good point TS, it really should be taken to another thread. A person in pain looking for guidance shouldn't have to muddle thru all the infighting over NC vs C and how some feel about the OC being titled an "embarassment".

Some women here have taken the OC into their families w/o skipping a beat and love them as if they were their own. Some do not feel strong enough, or they feel it is not their place. They didn't create the sitch, let MM and OW deal with the fall out, so to speak.

There is no one size fits all for this, unfortunately.

Greetings,

I will admit, the temptation to respond was OVERWHELMING :-)
I understand where MOM is on this issue, just felt she needed to know that there are those who agree with her!!!!!

As to weather that needed to happen on GH thread, I can buy some of TS agrument.

BTW MOMto3Boys, My boys love thier little sister too!

You all have a good day now!

TH

family I know you, you are a great person and without realizing it your posts have helped me so much.


I know you did not mean nothing by this.....because it is how some women feel, but can I also add that sometime NC is decided not because of they are not strong enough. Some do decide that is in the best interest of the child. I seem some posts where the child is being used as a pawn, being torn between two families. Best intention is what they are trying to do, to give the child both parents. But sometimes the best intentions ae putting that child in the middle of a battlefield. My heart goes out to the fathers trying their best to be there for them and goes out to the child for being stuck in the middle. Some people choose not to have NC to give that child a peaceful growing up. Some feel it is better to let the child grow up hopefully in a peace without being handed back and forth and torn in between two that love child. You have seen the stories you know they are there. And sometime when read them post it reminds of a story I learned in bible school about two mothers fighting over a child and it was decided to split the child, and they knew who the real mother was because out of love she let the child go instead of splitting it. Kind of understand what I am trying to say?

I have 2 wonderful friends I email, one is OC and the other is from divorced. they both express that they would of perfered that they was in just one family and grow up with the just love and stability of one parent instead of the constant games in between their parents. My heart goes out to them and the frustration they grew up in.

But then again I have another that never met her dad, she was born out of wedlock, has all these dreams abuut him and wonders. My heart goes out to her, with the constant wonder I met my bio, I am glad that I was a adult when I did cause then I was mature enough to realize that I am glad he was not in my life.

there is so much in decsion and so many different reason why and so many different outcomes. It is hard to know what you decide is right you just got to hope for the best in whatever you decide.

I can go on forever about if this and if that, yes it would be nice we lived in a perfect world. But we dont and we just got to be there and support each other no matter what the decsion is and hope for the best. And if we lived in a perfect world, then we wouldnt be these sites.

I'm sorry TS, I didn't really try to go into all the possible scenarios. I know that the reasons range from A-Z. Too many to list, as I also have work I should be doing... LOL

I respect the fact you felt it needed to be taken to another thread. I agree that the infighting on a thread where someone new is trying to get help is detrimental.

I know LynnG is hated by many an OW with OC because of her stance. She is the type most would hate to tangle with, IMO. She has a backbone and she is armed with knowledge, that she is not afraid to use, and she is willing to share with BW's new to the ride they find themselves on.

Anyway, I didn't mean to say BW's aren't strong enough. Many of them have strength that the OW can't possibly comprehend.

No sorries needed hun, I know exactly what you was saying just explaining why I was adding more to why. You have a great heart and a poster I respect alot.

I have alot of respect for Lynn, for the reason you have listed. Ok maybe her statements are little harsh, maybe I dont feel the same way as her on that, but I respect her for standing up in her belief.

but this is the feeling I get from her, and I think this feeling is true, that no matter what i decided on what path to take she would be a strength for me eiher way. As long as I am fighting for what I want best in my marriage. I do have a feeling that if I really wanted contact and OW was doing everything in her power to stop it, I do think she will be there to give her strength and knowledge to make that happen.

Thundrstrm, I dont know who you are from Adam, I dont know your story and you dont know mine...

I wasn't even commenting to YOU or even ABOUT you...so I am not sure why all the defensiveness on your part...

I was making a comment to somethng **I** found very insulting....not only to an OC but to any child out there!



THIS has NOTHING to do with contact or NC saving your marriage or not saving it...this is a downright insult to another baby, child and human being...

any one of us can come back and say

"I will not allow Uncle John in our home because he is embarrassing and I will not allow my children around him" substitue uncle John for your own mother or father or aunt or whoever..

LynG has a right to her OWN personal opinion just as I do...

I feel it is UNfortunate for ANY parent to make the decision based on so much anger and bitterness to keep their own children from meeting their own sister/brother...their own blood...

Once you can get past the pain and start to heal YOURSELF, then maybe some can see that the poor INNOCENT OC is just that...a child...and **IT** deserves just as much love and respect as YOUR children do...

MY kids LOVE, LOVE, LOVE their SISTER...it is not their OC..it is their SISTER...

a child that THEIR father produced..

until you can get passed our own hurt and anger and realize that the OW and OC are not the problem, then mybe you can see the OC as a human being and not some embarrasing whatever...

have a great day now! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

PS, TH I am glad you and your W are doing so well...keep up the good work!

Exactly, Lynn is for NC in her situation, I haven't seen her rail on anyone for wanting C. She is supportive either way. Sometimes her comments are harsh, but I've seen plenty of harsh comments and actions on many an OW's part. She's just honest with her feelings, which she is entitled to. Her H was given the choice to stay or go and he stayed. Just like OW like to say BW stayed so now she has to deal with "it". (Meaning the OW/OC sitch.) The same goes for the BH. He chose to stay, now he has to deal with it.

Why do you take it as such a personal affront that LynnG feels that way? She is being honest. I am betting many (not all) BW's feel the way she does, they just don't verbalize it for fear of being called callous.

Do you think a BW is proud to tell people her H fathered a child with another woman???? It is embarassing. Just because the OW doesn't want it to be embarassing, doesn't magically make it so.

You got a lot of support here when your H was treating you terribly. I saw you on TV even. Now that you are further down the road in your healing, you expect everyone to be where you are?

I dont..and that is not even the point...are you not reading? it is how they represent themselves and the OC or even the COM in public...it is disprespectful for anyone to talk about any other HUMAN being that way...

yup and so am I..only I am defending an OC, but you dont want to hear anything about that horrible OC or OW..

oh you are very wrong in that...many do verbalize it...and many people do hate the OW and the OC..what they dont realize is it is not the OC that did this to them...it is their own H...and the OC is being punished...

guess he should have thought aout it before stepping outside the marriage, huh?


why would an OW be embarrassed about her own child? why are we talkng about the OW now? this was about somethig said about the OC not the OW...but you ahve managed to throw that one in there..

actually I got support when my H was CHEATING on me...when I needed support the MOST and when my H was treating me terribly is when people here turned on me...for one reason or another...

OK, and????


ummmm, did I say that? NO, Dont think I did...I am as far along in my healing because I refuse to live inanger and bitterness every day...YOU choose to be unhappy or happy..YOU choose to be angry about this or move on...NO ONE else does...

**I** have chosen to let it go...what has happened, happened...I cannot change the past...

when YOU can get to a poit in YOUR OWN healing that you can deal with the current situation and stop putting blame on the wrong people...

WHO CARES...

you cannot change the past...what you can do is live IN the present and for the future...you can either make the best of it or make it miserable....but it is YOUR choice

YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING?


RIGHT ON SISTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I could not have said it better myself.

TH

I am very saddenned in the way we (WOMEN) treat each other.

We live in a society where NO one is accountable.
Instead of being sisters to each other, it boils down to who "THINKS" they are right.

IMO Momto3boys is hurt. I read her posts and I could feel her seething through the post. She is also divorced. She is VERY upset with her husband. She hasn't moved on (even though that is what she "thinks" she has done).

She has a lot of anger towards her husband.

I hope that maybe in 6 months or a year from now, she can look at her posts and will know she was at a different place in her life.

Also, I've noticed some of the OWS that post have alot of anger. They only see things one-sided (they are the victim) and that mm took advantage of them.

Just my personal opinion but sometimes I think the OWS are mad at themselves for their part but don't want to admit it.
It shows "THEIR" weakness.

We all want to appear "strong."


Most times, I just read the posts. You can pretty much tell who has moved on and who has resentment and with whom they have the resentment.

Some are mad at their husbands, some bws hate the OWS, some OW's HATE the husband, because they thought this mm was the "ONE." Nobody wants to be thrown aside. Some wives resent the OC, because this is a piece of their husband out there.

Now I do not hate the OW. I did at one time. But after finding out as much about her as I could, I could only feel pity. I forgave her for ME, so that I could move on.

As for the OC, I think about him and hope and pray he has a good life. No we do not have contact.

No I am not embarrassed. The only people that SHOULD be embarrassed are the husband and the OW. They are the ones that had the affair.

And YES the OW should be embarrassed that in the 21st century she got pregnant by a mm. Unless, it was something that she planned and wanted.

Accidents shouldn't happen anymore.


And YES my husband IS embarrassed that he got the OW pregnant.

Yes, the child is a human being.

Yes, my husband was stupid and didn't care NOR think about the consequences and for that he has to pay for the rest of his life.

The OW had a choice also. She didn't make him wear a condom which means that she ALSO didn't care or maybe wanted another child. When she informed my husband, he told her no, he didn't want any more children.

That's why I feel sorry for her. She has 2 children and neither has a father. She has a child that only she has held, who she wakes up to when he cries.
But that is HER spiritual price for her sin is to raise her child alone.

Now that being the case, do you wish you push the OC onto his father? Some men just want a screw and don't care yes like my husband.

If the man dumped you and NEVER looked back, would you really want your child around him?
I wouldn't.

I don't think I will be posting anytime too soon.

I'm so disappointed in WOMEN.

We were always the ones with morals.......

If you can't be honest with yourself than who can you be honest with.

I don't want contact with the OC because I don't want contact with the OW.

No, I'm not threatened by her.
But she has obsessive behavior and loves to stalk.
If we were to let the OC into our lives, then we also get her. No thanks.

I mean who gets a revelation after screwing someone for 6 months telling him you're pregnant, being dumped, going through the entire pregnancy by yourself, following other members of the family to "show" off your child, still no reaction from the father and then you write a letter and say "you only wanted sex."

YOU THINK?

To the OWS, I say, please, please, if you have NOT gotten pregnant by a mm, please don't.

I am the product of an affair.
All my life, no pictures of my dad, no nothing. I have no info about him.

This is not the life I would have chosen for myself.
I as the OC am embarrassed that I am the product of an affair.

I did not find out until I was an adult. Thank God.
I can't imagine how it would have affected me as a child.
I am GLAD that my mother did NOT tell me. Who wants to be traumatized. Growing up is hard enough.
I doubt that I would have told anyone.

My mother was an OW TWICE. My brother is also the result of an affair.

When I first found out, all I felt was disgust for my mother. I have forgiven her.

I have to give her credit, she made her mistakes and lived with them. She didn't go after the married men.
Neither father had contact.

I personally know someone ......an X friend.
I talked to her about my sith. She sat there listening and saying how "smart" the OW was.

About knocked me off my feet UNTIL she admitted to dating
FOUR married men and stated "well, I wasn't the one married, it's all on the men."

Thank God, she never had any kids..well one(had an abortion).

This woman has had a hard life. She has "lived" with a man for 25 years (she took him from his wife). He has never married her.

I remember her crying to me one day that God didn't listen to her......after hearing about the 4 mm and that she is in the group that believes it's all on the mm, I KNOW why she lives the life she does.

God really doesn't hear her as long as she doesn't realize HER sin. I no longer talk to her.

I say to ALL of the angry men and women.

FORGIVE those who have hurt you.

When you forgive you begin to LIVE.

Now I go out to live.

I hope and pray that each of us learns that we are ALL accountable for our OWN sins because we have FREE WILL.

Leave the punishment to God or if you don't believe in God, to karma.....reap what you sow...whatever.

God bless....wishing only the very best to EVERYONE!!!

Here is my take on it....I don't personally know what Lynn was saying...I can tell you all that I personally was EMBARRASED...by what my H did. The stitch was embarrasing as ******. The less people that I told, the better I felt. This is not a topic that I wanted spread all over town...infact, we didn't even tell my family. True enough my H put us in this embarrasing predicament, but that doesn't make it any less pitiful. Now when reading what Lynn wrote...I didn't get the impression that she was talking about the physical child (I could be wrong), I felt like she was talking about the stitch...and I don't care whether you are an OW, a BS, or MM...the stitch is embarassing, and if your not embarrassed, that's frightful. I'm not saying that you can't get over it and welcome the child in the family and love them...but let's be real here...I doubt any of us, with C or NC, would have this published on a billboard...

HUH? are you kidding me? you obviously dont know me or know anything about me...just because I am divorced doesn't mean I am angry... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

No sweetie, I am quite the opposite, I am very happy...my divorce was the best thing I could do for me and my children...

oh and btw, why is it that MY DIVORCE has now been brought into the issue?

we've gone from calling an OC embarrassing, to the OW and now my DIVORCE?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Oh and btw...this has really put a nice smile on my face tonight...this has me in stitches...thanks!

have a great evening! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

crazyhurt said:
You are wrong ch.

This is what she said:

But **** is *****. Personally, I'm so used to it by now because she's been saying stuff akin to that since she arrived. I don't like it, but she is what she is. I'm actually more shocked when she *doesn't* say something shocking and demeaning about an OC.

AD - I get your point, I do, but there was a time when I felt having the child around would be embarassing. Am I proud about that, no...but, I'm trying to make this real. Having a H who has an affair with a woman and then having a child by that woman is embarassing...and I really believe that you all can understand that concept. I appreciate everyone's input here on these boards. When I was at my lowest, Lynn G was there, and I'll always be greatful for that...and I'm not going to try to explain what she was trying to say or not trying to say. One thing for sure, if she wants too, she'll tell us her intentions.

I was just trying to point out that this stitch can be embarassing...it doesn't mean that you can't love the child or care for them...it simply means that this is not an ideal situation and others looking in will not look highly on it...its embarassing, and honestly I wouldn't want anyone to know...that's just me.

I'm sorry that feelings were hurt...but there has to be a place where Lynn and Mom can say whats exactly on their minds. Lynn gave her opinion, and Mom gave hers....I can understand both points of view.

Lynn has her feelings on the OC stitch but I don't think that calling her LyinG is a good way to bring about closure and solidarity. Lynn didn't lie, she told us her perspective. Mom told us hers...we all are basically in the same boat..

MT3 - Why do you even come to MB then? If it gets you so upset, don't come here. I know for a fact you rag on this site elsewhere.

Many BS's here are hurting and raw, and rightfully so. I don't care if you think the blame is 100% on their H. They blame their H, but they blame OW too. She wasn't born yesterday, she isn't a "victim" in all of this (unless MM outright lies about being M'd). She too knows what BC is and knows how to keep her legs shut. It's their own fault they were too needy and desperate to have a man in their life to wait for one that is single. The OW in your sitch stalked your H, wouldn't let up. She played a major part in destroying your family. Now you play the single parent role for the most part. Good for you that you hold NO ill will towards her. You are a bigger person than most.

Like LynnG says, everybody gets a piece of the hurt pie. The OW is just as much to blame for bringing a child into this sitch.

ch~

I may be wrong, but I don't think Mom or anyone else's feelings were hurt. I think Mom was appalled or shocked or something, but not personally hurt. I think by what she's said, she was simply being an advocate for all children... doesn't like to hear any child being referred to in such a light.

Secondly, I never said Lynn or anyone else shouldn't be allowed to voice their opinion. That wasn't what my post was about at all. I was only pointing out that it's pretty clear by Lynn's statement, that the OC himself is an embarrassment, and not just the situation.

Ftr... being a wife of nearly 23 yrs, I can totally relate to what it must feel like as a BW w/ an OC. Obviously I don't know first hand. And I hope and pray I never will. I can get on board with the fact the situation would be a horrible embarrassment. I understand that, I do.

I'm a very private person, as in I don't like anyone... not my folks, sibs, IL's, best friend, and even my own children at times to know anything about my M. To me it's between my H & I. I hardly ever reveal any kind of details, whether good or bad. I'm not the kind that goes around saying "oh we're trying to get P", or "my H just got a vasectomy", or "we had this huge fight last night". AND the only people,(to my knowledge), that know about my A are my H, xom, and one of my com, (but doesn't know any dates, just kinda knew). Further... only my H and xom, (kinda sorta), know about my OC, (if the one com figured it out, she doesn't say, and she treats lil' one like he's her own child, lol). So you can only imagine how mortified I'd be for people to know if my H had an A, because suddenly there would be the presence of an OC. That would be one time in our M life we wouldn't be able to keep our private life, OUR private life, and what a biggie that would be!! So yes, I totally understand the concept of it being an embarrassing *situation*.

BUT...

I hope, (and I admit it would probably be easier for me, given my situation and what my H's done for me and lil' one), that I'd be able to separate the OC from the OW. Be able to separate the OC from the horror and ugliness of the betrayal. Be able to see that the only embarrassment would be what my H did to me. Be able to see that the *situation* is embarrassing, but NEVER the OC himself.


And even still... when all is said and done. I hope I'd be able to hold my head high, and say stick it to anyone who looked down on my H, me, and H's OC. Who needs friends like that anyway?

~ad

ps. Never said Lynn is a liar. Was just having a little fun, but I need to remember to keep that type of humor where it's more fitting. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I'll edit now.

Why do you think my feelings are hurt?

I never indicated in any way shape or form that my feelings were hurt...I am not hurt by any means....I guess because I am divorced and not harboring all these bitter angry feelings towards my XH, I should rather be hurt...

no sweetie I am not hurt, I am not bitter, I am not angry...no matter how hard ya'll try to covince yourselves I am, I am not...I am angry at the way my XH ACTS at times and how he uses my COM to get to me, but not for what he did...there is a difference. I am way beyond that...

I'm not sure where you guys find it necessary to twist the original point I made..which was calling a CHILD an embarrassment...I found that disprespectful and unnecessary...

I rarely rag on MB unless it has something to do with ME...I dont ever recall ragging on this site otherwise...If I am mad about something that was said in regards about ME, then yes, I have every right to rag about it...but dont sit there and say that I rag on this site...

I'm sorry why are you bringing up MY OW in this? have I mentioned MY OW here? I will have to go back and refresh, but I dont recall I did...

I have never said anything negative about any BS here hurting...I understnd their pain...I was there, so I dont know why you find it necesary to accuse me for ridiculing any other BS here...

Again, please refer back to my original post that started all of this...I was simply pointing out that I found it disprespectful that someone said such horrble things about a child...

now if you all want to continue bringing my divorce, my OW, my OC into this, so be it...you all are free to converse amongst yourselves....

have a great day <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Mom I started this thread not to lash out you for your opionion on what is going on your life. It wasnt started to lash at me for where I am in my recovery, btw, since you dont know me, is going great, we are happy and better then ever. Why that was brought up still dont know.

You said that is why you dont ever come to this board, I just wanted to know why come? Every one has their board, some they feel more comfortable to really open and talk, some you agree with but some you dont, but putting the quality time into the board you learn who is who and their opionions. I dont have alot of time, shouldnt be sitting here as it is, but hope you kind of get what i am saying,

Anyways why I started this thread was not to say your opionions in it didnt count, you have the right to yours, I respect that, I have the right to mine, which I wished for respect to that.

I started it to try and stop this exact thing from going on in guiltyhusband thread. One comment was said, then another and then another and soon all heck breaks out in it. If it was my thread and it started it wouldnt of bothered me, I have been around here awhile, or even another established member, because me (they) kind of know what makes everyone tick around here. But a newbie dont.

Looking at my post I guess I didnt word it just write, what I should of said because like you said I dont know you I dont your feelings about Lynn or things (kind of got the idea by your comments tho)
Should of said "TH we all know your feelings about Lynn but if you two have a prob with something another poster said take it to another thread."

Yes you have your right to say what you want, all I was trying to do was to get you guys to take it to another thread and out of the newbie, give him the choice if he wanted to read it by clicking on the thread..... KWM???

When I saw the oh my gosh,,,,, I just knew there would be another comment, so I tried to say everyone got their opionion lets remember that, hoping that their wasnt going to be on that thread, but as i knew another was made and another, and I knew that more comeback would make it to that thread and the thread would be sidetracked KWIM???? So I tried to fast track it to another thread that if you want to dispute what another poster said bring it to another thread.

I wasnt trying to start a war, I was TRYING TO KEEP PEACE on a newbie thread. Put them on a established who knows or start a new thread saying hey I dont agree with that.

Hope I made sense. I know sometimes when I am hurry I babble.

but I really got to get to packing.

I know who you are Family Comes First <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Thunder, you should know that starting a thread with the my name in the title is going to create a war...you see before I even posted in this thread it got out of hand...

some ppl love me here on MB but most ppl hate me and it is not because I am opinionated or I argue or whatever...they just dont like me...so be forewarned next time you start a thread with MT3B or Mom in it...it will create DRAMA! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

its what Others have said that has gotten so out of hand....as usual! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

have a great day <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

no prob, cause as much drama as you would like :-) just in the approatiate thread :-) KWIM???


I make my own opionion on who i like and dont like

"I know who you are Family Comes First"

And that's supposed to mean something to me? Should I be shakin' in my boots?? LMAO!

I'm sorry I said hurt...I got that impression. I support every woman's right to express themselves. I never hold myself back.

I'm sorry if I made it out to be more than it was. I was just trying to explain what the "embarassment" could be for some...that's all. I apologize if I misinterpreted.

And yet, I ask again, why is it so terribly wrong to protect the children of the marriage from all of this?

My children and even me are human too. I chose,early on that I was not going to live my life with the oc as part of it. That decision was made, early, after speaking to many people, who had lived it. Those who had contact said it was the biggest mistake of their lives. I agreed with them.

If a wife wants contact with the oc, she can do so. If not, that is ok too. I feel strongly that the wife and her children not be forced to accomodate others to fix the mistake. They are just as innocent as the oc. I try to scream from the hilltops that it is vital that people realize that everyone gets hurt here, cause of two people. Not just the oc.

Yes we are all well aware that the oc is innocent, blah blah blah... But so are the children of the marriage. Since I chose to fight for my childrens well being that makes we wrong?

Yes, I protected my children from the embarrassment of having the oc in our lives. Yes I saw the oc as a humiliation. What is he otherwise? Just cause a healthy baby was born does not erase the affair and the end result. It does not tie up the mess and the hurt created by two in a nice neat box.

Also, TH, when have I ever blasted a wife for having contact? I have stood firm on doing what the BW feels is best for her and her marriage. I have supported those with contact many times....as long as that is what THEY wanted and didn't feel pushed into doing so. I support BW's cause I was one. I don't want to see them get run over again. They are hurt, and confused. Their friends can hug them and hold them while they cry. I will kick them in but and tell them to get moving and be proactive so they don't get swindled by those who would do them harm......meaning those who had the affair. And YES that includes her husband. She has to stand up and voice her feelings and concerns, or why stay marrired? And it is quite obvious that the wishes/needs of the ow do not matter or count. The oc is whatever she chooses it to be. If she wants oc in her life, then the couple, can do so. They can make any and all decisions regarding their lives and thier marraige without once having to consider what the ow may or may not like. That is reality.

This is not a Norman Rockwell painting. It does not get all cleaned up nice and neat. So many are hurt, and not just the oc, but the spouse, inlaws, etc, and of course the children of the marraige. The oc is just one of many.

OK Lynn, what is your definition of "forced"?


Lynn, I know I have bashed you, but I don't recall doing it for that. You have blasted me for wanting contact. That is where my response was comming from.


My big issue with you is not so much as to weather or not you would allow contact with the OC, but more about how you talk about them that I found offensive. It often came across as if they are "sub human". That somehow they were to blame for the adulterus acts H's like me and the OW's involed.

TH

Lynn,

The boss has other plans for me at the moment. I will respond to what you wrote on the GH thread, it just won't be right now.

TH

TH--I gently point out you are always very defensive on this point... you LOOK for ways to be upset about OC.

I suspect you are reacting to movie-versions of Betrayed Wives ("Evita" scenes leap to mind--disgusting behavior that 95% of BW would never do), and acting out your own guilt.

Yes, YOUR BEHAVIOR is what screwed your OC out of a normal life and you feel guilty. Face it. Mourn it. Lynn is advocating something you terribly don't want--to leave OC behind. So you're projecting your guilt as anger at Lynn.

Don't waste your time trying to change people who aren't going to change, have little to do with your situation, and who aren't hateful toward OC anyway.

Thoughful human beings love children regardless of their origins. (It's said we can judge a culture by how it treats children, elderly, and handicapped.)

That doesn't mean all Betrayed Spouses have to or can embrace their spouse's lover's child into their life--esp. when that means lifelong contact with the former Affairee----eeeewwww!

If your wife can (accept OC), I hope you fall on your knees in gratitude. Sorry, but you and LynnG can both come off as arrogant, so in this sense you have something in common.

Spoken as someone who has come to love my H's OC much.
'Jenny'

Lynn,

There are "other" places where your courage to take a strong stand for the rights of BW are lauded and applauded. Many of them have expressed gratitude for your help in seeing another point of view in the devastation following an A with/OC.

Everything seems uncertain and I don't think anyone is thinking straight after D-day with this situation. There is NO roadmap that tells you the right way. You are telling BW's that it is okay to not want OC in their lives and they do NOT have to just accept, accept, accept anything that H/OW say to protect their children and attempt to save their marriage.

I wish that I had found MB earlier in our drama and the strength you offer. I came to the decision that I could NOT have OW in our life and I did not want OC in our lives. But I was worried I was out of line.........I had so much distorted thinking, and I didn't know what to do. I called my therapist to ask HIM if I was unreasonable to not want OC/OW before I stated my position to H. He told me that "NO woman in her RIGHT MIND would want that in her life"! That helped tremendously with the road map!!

Even if a BW decides that she does want C, it is a valuable service to BW to show them another way that is okay, too.

Thank you! Don't ever change!

Lynn has NEVER railed on the betrayed spouse for wanting contact. You got railed on because you - the wayward spouse, who posted many critical things about your wife, while you went on and on about the admirable traits of the woman who helped you destroy your family's hopes for stability - you were basically railroading your wife and threatening to abandon COM for OC in order to FORCE contact. That defies the probability of a healthy marriage, and deprives both the COM and OC of a stable family situation.

Do not use Mom's passion over the feelings shared about what OC represents to a betrayed wife as license - because if she had read what you had done to your poor wife to force contact at this early age... well, let's just say I don't think you'd be getting ANY kudos from a woman as fiery about wayward spouse behavior as Mom is!

Amen KaylaAndy!!!

I have never picked on a BW for chosing contact. I have and will always tell them that while it is hard to even function in the early days, months of learing this devastating news, now is not the time to fall apart. They need to be honest about how they really feel. And they need to make life choices based on what they really want.

I believe that Kayla did a great job explaing what forced means.


I advcate for BW's to pull up the bootstraps and get what they want out of their lives. And to not listen or be manipulated by those who do not have their best interests at heart.

It's not that I see the oc as subhuman, but I do not see oc as more important then my children. I look out for my children and their best interests.

I certainly did see the oc as an embarrassment. What would be expected? Happy giddy feelings of joy? That suddenly the betrayal and hurt and angst fades away cause a baby is born? Nope.

I saw the oc as a finanical obligation and living proof of my husbands betrayal. Do I wish him ill will? Nope. He was just as innocent as my children. The problem is that many see the oc as the ONLY innocent one. I don't. I see the this spread out over entire families.

>I advcate for BW's to pull up the bootstraps and get what they want out of their lives

BRAVA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How are things on your home front, TH? I know that you deleted all the pertinent information on your original thread, but you haven't offered where your M stands right now and how your W is doing dealing with the OC situation.

Oh, and I may not be Lynn, but IMHO, forced is pretty much what you did you to your W upon the A and OC being exposed. You basically gave her an ultimatum of "You either accept this child in our lives or I'm gone." All this right after she JUST finds out of the OC. You didn't even give her the chance to let it all sink in before you started throwing your weight around. Then, you get upset when she changes her mind to NOT have her boys visit with the OC.

So, how about giving us an update on where your M stands right now? What steps are you taking to repair the damage you caused?

Thank goodness for people like Lynn G, Tigger, LaBelle etc. I echo what you all say. We have C and have since nearly the beginning. There is still embarassment and I don't imagine that it'll ever go away. Is that a reflection on the OC, no it's a reflection on the WH and the OW. This was NOT a happy, planned event and will never be portrayed as such. Does that mean OC will not be loved and taken care of just like our other children - - NO.

Mom - you're way out there somewhere.

TH - It's still in my not so humble opinion all about ME, ME, ME.

Nut,


Nut, I have no agrument with this statement. I agree with your feelings on this.



Lynn


I am not upset that you want to protect your children. I was upset about how you referred to children conceived from an affair as “gum stuck on the bottom of my shoe that needs to be scraped off’.


Not as much as you may think. In the case of GH, if OWH wants to be the dad, I think GH would be wise to let go and let all these families heal. There was a time when I thought OW was going to hook up with someone I respected at the time. I seriously considered letting go.

What does rattle my mind is why some of your ladies thinks it is so easy to just cast away one of your children. You claim to work so hard to protect your children, why would I not do the same? You can give me all the reason in the world about how my daughter was conceived from an affair, yada, yada, yada

But she is STIL MY CHILD JUST LIKE MY SONS and I am obligated to look out for her best interest too. Just as I am my W and sons.


My best guess is that MOM wanted GH to know whom he was dealing with. When MOM posted, I wanted her to know that I agreed with her position. From there, it just seemed to snowball.


I never claimed this was a wonderful event. You keep implying that I did.


Lynn, if you had stated it just like the above, I might have taken what you said and really thought about it. I not saying I would have agreed, but you would at least have my respect for your position.



Lynn, there are at least two occasions that I can think of that you attacked me. When you do that with the vile attitude that you did, you put a BIG BULLSEYE on yourself. I wanted to see whom I was dealing with. Prior to your posts to me, I had no idea of who or what you were. Once I saw the “gum” post, I knew you were somebody not to be taken seriously.

As far as “snipts”, I am not sure which ones you are referring too.


Two different issues here; Yes he is in a mess, and you were also being disrespectful.


Then perhaps you would be willing to apologize for the disrespectful comments that you have made about children conceived from an affair?

I too look out for the best interest of all my children.


Not sure why you see the OC as an embarrassment. Your H is the embarrassment. He did the deed. How does that shame transfer to the child? I understand why you would be angry at your H and OW, but I don’t get the comments about “embarrassing OC”. You said your self the OC is innocent, so why the disparaging remarks?


Well you were quick to lump the assumption on me that I ONLY loved my daughter. I ALSO VERY MUCH LOVE MY SONS AND WIFE TOO! My W sees the OW and me as the ones who were guilty. My daughter is now just one of the kids.


Tiger



Well, things are pretty good. I have ZERO contact with OW. It has been this way for a while. The legal paperwork is done and there is no drama with OW.

My W still gets mad and upset from time to time, but I do my best to reassure her that I LOVE HER and have ZERO intention of running off with the OW.

My boys seem to love their sister. She seems to love them.

As far as what I am doing to repair the damage:

I make sure my W knows I LOVE HER.
I make a real effort to show affection.
I make time to listen to what is on her mind.
I make an effort to understand what she is feeling.
I do my best to be home on time from work.
I have read many of the self help books here that are talked about.
I make a real effort to fill my W’s 5 primary needs.
When she argues with me, I tend to see it as her trying to connect with me rather than me just seeing it as disrespect as I had in the past.
I try to include her in things I like to do. We are still working on recreational activities that we can enjoy together.


On a side note:

All of our friends and family know what has happened.
Now a lot of couples that I had thought were rock solid don’t appear to me as such anymore. I look around and “see” what is going on. Many of these couples have also asked my W and I how we managed to “get things on the right track”.

If we have made lemonade out of lemons, then it is this. We have given many other couples hope and guidance on how to fill each other’s primary needs and have a happy M.

Most of the time it involves telling them how the books His/Her Needs and Love And Respect really changed both of our thinking and the way we act toward each other.


As far as MOMto3boys:

I agree with her positions and statements that I have seen on this tread and the GH thread.
I also know that does not mean that she would have agreed with me, or the way I ended up handling things.

I have a tremendous amount of respect for a woman who shows compassion for a child/children who were born into this type of situation and took them in as if they were her own. I think the H’s of these ladies should consider themselves beyond lucky.

TH

ANY H who has a wife who will stay with them after an A and OC, should consider himself lucky! Whether they have C or NC.

It is an indefensible betrayal of the wife and marriage.

Jenny,

If this is gentle, then I would hate to see you with a hatchet. :-)

But more seriously, you have made some accusations about me that I would like to address:


I have the right to express my feeling about my daughter just as much as anyone here.
I have found that there is a lopsided view about no contact from many. Some even talk about children like mine as somewhat “less” than COMs. I find it repulsive.

Does that make me angry, Yep, sure does, and here on this forum, I going to give a piece of my mind about it. I got plenty of “pieces of mind” from others here. If they can dish it out, then they can take.
As Lynn would say “no pussyfooting here”.

With the exception of Lynn, I have tried my best to be civil. That courtesy has not always been extended to me here at MB.


I am not familiar with the movie scene you are referring to. But before you preach to me about disgusting behavior, I would like you to point out where it is in the GH or Mom and TH thread.

Do I realize that I made a lot of BS mad on the H wants C, W wants NC thread for expressing how I felt about the OW at the time, YEP! I admit, I had a he!1 of a time trying to get her out of my head. I do LOVE my W and I let her know it on a regular basis. I will NEVER get ANY of my children out of my head. Yes, I can LOVE my wife, my sons, and my daughter all at the same time.


Yes I have felt guilt for what I have done to my W and Sons. I have also felt guilt for what I have done to my Daughter. I have done my best to keep all of my family together. I admit, I have not done it the “text book” way. If I had a chance to do things over, there are things I would not do again. In the end, my W knows that I LOVE HER and will continue to try and be the H I should have always been. She has also become the W I have always wanted too. We have learned a lot together over the last couple of months.


She has, and I have. I don't know if I can express how grateful I am.


I'm big enough to buy that one :-)

TH

TH,

Now, was that so hard, to let us know WHAT steps you have and are taking to rebuild your M? I also know what you mean about taking the "bright" side of this in how it's helped you be helpful to other couples who may be close to a marriage meltdown. We've done the same thing over the last 6 years.

Now, can I give you a little more advice on a couple things here? First, your comment about the boys "seeming" to love their sister. Well, as they get older, things may shift. Be prepared for that. They are still quite young, and as they get older, they will become more protective of their mother. I'm not saying anything WILL happen, just be prepared if it does.

I also don't think that your W's issues when she gets angry have very much to do with being worried that you will run off with the xow, but with the constant reminder of the A when the topic of OC is brought up, or visitation and things like that. You keep talking about your obligation to "all" your children, well, she only has 2 that she is obligated to. She is still in her healing process, or rather the greiving process. Do you know the steps? If not, you need to find out, because she is greiving over the loss of what she thought her M was. You need to help her through those steps. You need to be putting your W FIRST.

And, finally, NONE of these BW's have ANY obligation to the OC at all. In their minds, especially those who have NC, the OC is no better to them than any other child at a playground. Do they wish those children any ill will? Nope. BUT, will they go out of their way to bend over backward to make sure that NO ONE treats them differently than their own child? NOPE. It's not that they hate the child, it's that they hate what that child represents in the damage that was caused in their M. Just as in my own situation, any BS who has contact with the OC is a very strong person. I have nothing but the utmost respect for my H, especially when he and our little Abbi are playing, cuddling, or just hanging out. He didn't have to stick around. He didn't have to say that he would raise her as our own child. He chose to take on the added responsablilty of another child 8 YEARS AFTER what we thought would be our last child!

If you are wondering why SO many oldies recommend to the newbies to go NC, it's because it's SO much easier to repair and rebuild when you don't have that extra added reminder of what caused the damage in the first place. For many, it takes at least 6 months post D-day to finally get to the point where they might be able to consider contact. From what I recall, you were barely half way to that 6 month point for your W, and you were already pushing contact, if not with your W there, but at least for your boys. Even when she wasn't ready, and many here were telling you to not push it. That's why you've gotten the responses here that seem so harsh. Most, if not all, of these women KNOW what your W is feeling.

Finally, as for your knee jerk reaction to Lynn, well, she's been there, done that, and is through with their financial obligation. She's seen what a sucess it was for her family and children to do things the way she did them, and strives to help others. Yes, there are times when she seems cruel, but re-read the above statement about the kids at the playground not being held in as high regard as your own children, and the fact that the OC is not your W's obligation. For Lynn, and many others, the only way they could heal is to view the situation as just that.

Again, thank you for sharing the steps you've taken in rebuilding your M. Keep up the good work, and remember that your W should ALWAYS come first, even above your boys.

TH - you are aware of how you praised the OW and criticized your wife - and that you have corrected that behavior toward your wife now.

But I have yet to see you acknowledge the THREAT that you laid out for your wife if she did not cow-tow to your demand for contact, right at the beginning. You threatened to divorce her and harm your children of marriage - destroy THEIR home in favor of this OC.

This is where you DEMONSTRATE - IN ACTION that you do not love your children equally in action. This is the reason betrayed wives feel the way they feel toward OCs - because they know that in the minds of their unfaithful husbands the children of marriage are LESS than the OC - by their actions, YOU have demonstrated this as well. That is a monstrosity - Not Lynn's indifference toward her husband's affair child.

TH - Go and pull up THE ENTIRE thread of where I say that remark about gum on the bottom of the shoe. You must have searched quite a bit to go back that far....how odd...how very other womanish.


I have nothing to apologize for in my feelings for oc' when it comes to the marriage and the COM in them. The oc is not part of the family, and therefore is not a concern. Not my child. That is where those of you who create these children need to get a clue. This is not your wife or your childrens cross to bear. You act as if the biggest wrong here is a wife not wanting to have the embarrassment of the oc around. What a deluded, self serving load of crap. Somehow you want to see yourself as wonder parent, so full of love for all. Thats a load of manipulative garbage that has been spewed here for years. The issue is you cheated, and created another child and expect everyone else to clean up the mess. IF you want to fuss and cry about how "unfair to the oc" or "I love all my kids" yada yada yada, go ahead. But the fact remains is that child is a result of your betrayal to your family. How you can expect that poor wife of yours to be all happy about it is deluded and cruel.

You sound like every ow's dream man.

MOM........ <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Lynn,

When I first saw this statement back in my old posts, I thought you were calling me a woman. I thought, thats odd.

I admit it took me a bit to figure out what you were really saying. You think I am an OW.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

TH

No. I mean that you are other womanish.

You and Autumn sure seem to think you know what I think. She with her declarations are so amusing, considering......

I say you are other womanish, in that you feel that the oc supercedes all.

Your old posts....why did you take them all off?

Oh, and I hope your recovery goes well. Be gentle with your wife, you have hurt her terribly.

Hey, can we drop the fighting? There are people that are new to this board that don't need to see this. Lynn has her points and TH has his. End of story. Let's get back to helping the newbies. I believe we all have a purpose for being here.

faithfull follower....I agree!

I was posting and did not see the above.
I will do my best to play nice.

----------------------------------------
Yes Lynn, I know I have hurt her badly.

No I don't think OC is MORE important, I feel she is JUST as important as my Sons. Thats it.

As far as my old post; That was in protest to what I felt was abusive admin powers. I felt if my statements were going to get edited, I would just delete them myself.

Unlike when I attack you for whatever happens to rub me the wrong way. I did not feel I personally attacked the gentalmen who suggested a woman get an abortion. I was very blunt about my position on abortion. When I posted to justuss, all I got was the terms of service argument and then tread was locked. I felt it was unfair.

I then went and found another board to be a part of.

In hind sight, I kinda wished I had not gotten so mad and did that. Maybe there was something in those old posts that could have been helpfull to someone. There is nothing in those old posts that my W does not know.

The only thing that made me start to post here again was that Kimmy asked me to post to GH and Poyuit. Like you, I too have a desire to help people.

TH

Lynn~

I don't presume to know what you think. Your statement was right there in black and white. BTW, the statement itself didn't bother me. I'm so used to those kind of comments from you. When you throw me for a loop, is when you say something nice.

And what declarations did I make that you find so amusing?

And considering what, Lynn?

I'd like to hear the rest of that sentence.

The others have asked the "fight" to stop. SO I will.

I would think the considering...... would be quite obvious.

Kayla,

I not sure what you want to hear. I have already said that I did not do things the "text book" way. We can debate till "the cows come home" about what I did right and wrong and who I placed "more value" in yada, yada ,yada ....

There are many things I could have/ should have /should do differntly.

In the end, I LOVE MY WIFE and FAMILY and have no desire to leave or screwup again. My W has said she has forgiven me and wants to move on TOGETHER. So do I.

If we are lucky, we show others that there is hope of recovery. If I can turn my thinking around, that should give hope to a lot of people :-)

Tigger,

Here is a question I have been wanting to ask.

What would you have done had your H said:

1. Get an abortion?

2. Adopt the child out?

BTW, I will keep my eyes open about sibling problems in the future. I would like input about those who have chosen C and had good and bad experiance in this area.

TH

ITA <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

So considerate of you.

But not without getting one more dig in, right? ...


Oh you mean the part that I'm a *F*WW? Have an embarrassing OC of my own, so I'd have no right to be embarrassed if my H had an A/OC?

Last time I checked, this forum is open to all people dealing with the situation of an OC produced by an A, (even if the A was their own), and want to re-build their M. Just as someone such as your *F*WH would be welcome.

I have a voice here too, Lynn. And other than the play on your name in my post to CH, (which I later edited), I have stated my opinions respectfully and honestly.

Just exactly how much penance does a WS have to pay in order to be all square in your book? What if I said 50 Hail Mary's a day, AND single handedly located and captured Osama Bin Laden all by myself... would that help me any? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Will my opinions or advice ever carry any weight with you, or will there always be this caveat by my name?

~~~~
FF~

I apologize for continuing to "fight", but you placed your request AFTER she made her remark about me, and sorry... just wasn't going to let it go, even though the more reasonable side of me said to, lol.

Only by the grace of God's protective hand on our little Abbi was she NOT aborted. Almost immediately after I took the P test I was looking in the phone book for a clinic. I thought I had found one and called, and low and behold, it wasn't a clinic, but a Christian run support for Crisis Pregnancies. They did their best to talk me out of the abortion, and that combined with a phone call to my parents changed our minds. Then, you ask about adoption, well, I was willing to do whatever it took, including adoption AGAIN, if it would keep my M together. If you look at "vowsrsacred"s thread here you will see that I have already given one child up for adoption. Any other questions, please feel free to ask. I'm fairly open about most things here.

Hey Aut,
What's up with you?
Can you e-mail me?

TH I agree with what Tigger and the rest have said. Take it from someone who has been there a short time before your wife.
I take exception to many things you say but will address ONE>

Why on Earth should your wife TRUST you when you say you no longer want the ow?

Because YOU said so?

She may be agreeing on contact for fear of tearing up her married family because of your insistence that 'all of your kids are equal'

In your wounded wifes eyes, THEY ARE NOT.....

Please take that into consideration.

Any oc is NOT equal to what a wife and her children are to her HUSBAND!

To think so is to rub salt into her bleeding heart way, way, before a true recovery can begin.

Let the oc go!

Use techniques to heal and soothe your wife.

Let her be the one *with* you to decide.

Allow her enough time to catch her breath for goodness sakes!

At least 6 months before your ow's kid invades her life.... Please~ (it is how your wife sees oc, believe me~)


If she cannot fathom the seemingly nice-play ow you have (agreeing to everything), then it is up to her to decide first with your input later.

You tout what you have done, but believe me, the first thing my H had to do to me was prove that it was myself he wanted over all else, not oc..... you know? The gum on the shoe theory is pretty adequate, it feels like that. Something you just can't lose.

And you usually don't for over 18 years and lots of -pay -cuz- you -played money....

I could go on way too much, but your wife is the one in a flurry of emotions.... no matter what right now, your unyielding opinion on seeing oc... right this minute.... is probably excruciating to her at this time.
Ok done for now...

It seems as if you still don't 'get' what pain you have caused.. speaking for MrsTH, of course.

Debi

Tigger,

Thankyou for being so open. I probly will have more questions.

Gem,


In reality, what else does she have?
She could do some invasive spying on me. At this point that would be fine, I don't have anything to hide. I have already spilled my guts about everything.

As far as contact, there has been a lot of conversation that I have not shared on the boards. MrsTH knows how much my daughter means to me. MY W also knows now HOW MUCH SHE MEANS to me as well. I do LOVE my wife very much. If I didn't, I would have just given up and filed for divorce.

When I talk with MrsTH, she is most concerned about contact with the OW. She knows the daughter had nothing to do with the sin that me and the OW did. WE have made a decision that WE should continue visition.

I have been LUCKY that the OW has not tried to "stir the pot" and create BIG DRAMA. I don't expect she will either. I think OW just wants to go on with her life.

Now that all the legal stuff is done. I expect things to be pretty quiet.

If you don't belive me, ask MrsTH, I suspect you know where she can be found.

TH

>In reality, what else does she have?

Herself.

That's ALL she has right now.

She needs more time to trust you.

Take what you are given right now, be content with it for the moment and strive for more.

Continue this:

>I don't have anything to hide.

Live it. Let it be the lighthouse you erect in order to guide her back to being able to trust you.

- Kimmy

The Considering.....alludes to the past, where you have, on a Marriage Building Site, not listened to the wife, but instead pontificated about the needs of the oc.

TH, it's just that you are placing a huge burden on your wife right now by continuing visits. She's barely had time to digest all of this.

I'm just saying to allow her some time. Wait until her feelings have healed somewhat. You see the very thing she's worried about, *OW*, is natural. Even though you two agreed, she may be in no state of mind to deal with this. And every time you have that baby girl over, she's dealing in pain again.

Can't you let it go for a while? Can't you two go on a vacation together? Can you two counsel with the Harleys to let you into your wifes mind and what she's feeling this early?

Often times a bs agrees to visits for fear of her H leaving. Early on you said you'd do that. If she's opposed in the near future to continue visits, will you then leave the marriage to satisfy your own selfish needs again?

I am not 'queen' of what the outcome is during this nightmare of nightmares, but surely the ow will be around you two for the rest of your marriage simply by the fact you fathered a child with her and insist to co-parent. This is a real problem early on for the bs when visits are placed equally with trying to heal a broken marriage.

All I am trying to say is if you can put things on hold and allow your wife time to catch up, you two may well have a better chance in your reconciling your marriage.

It's not going to be something she can 'get used to' naturally in the coming years. Take it from one who knows that.

Visits may work out for you two, but you're putting the cart before the horse.

Blessings to you and Mrs.TH.

Maybe she can start a thread about this herself? Or would she fear your reading what's on her mind?

Besides you, she needs a venting place where she can have her feelings validated, know she's normal.

Have a good day.

Debi

I won't deny, I was guilty of this.
I was afaird to lose one of my children. In truth, I should have worried more about my W, but I just was not thier at the time. Like Sue in the book Surving the Affair, I was angry about needs not being met and had no faith that things would change.

Well, I learned that things can be differnt. That I CAN be happy with my W. After reading "His/Her Needs" I relized what I HAD NOT BEEN DOING and why my W was so angry at me all the time. Prior to this, I just saw her additude at me as an "ungratefull load of crap".

I will also say, she has learned too about what I was looking for and needing.

Are things perfect now? No. But am I trying in good faith? Yes. I belive my W is trying to recover the health of the M too. That has helped tremendously in me softing my stance on positions.

I have posed the question to MrsTH if we should stop visitation. At the same time, I also told her I have ZERO desire to leave my family. I have not posed the threat of leaving anymore.

We have jointly agreed to visitation.

As far as MrsTH posting, she does have a place to do that.
She knows about MB and another site that she often reads. I have a computer all set up for her IF SHE CHOOSES to use it.

If she is afaird of me reading her thoughts, she can post to that private area. If I really wanted to, I could crack it, but I feel she needs her own place to vent and I don't care to see it anyway. I have my own "fall guys" to talk with when I know I am mad and would regret words that I am saying.

TH

Would you tell your DW that I am pulling my membership from that other site she reads?

If she needs me, she can contact me here anytime or email me.

OK,

Can I ask why? How about you send an Email?
I know about boundries and all, so perhaps send it to my W.


Have anything to do why the site is down?

If it means anything TH, I think you've come a long way since you first posted. You are trying and it shows. It takes guts to come to sites like this and reach out for help.

Thanks familycomesfirst,

It does mean something to me.

TH, the "considering....." was about Autumn.

Hey, I agree with familycomesfirst. You do seem to be on the right track. I am glad you have read books and post on here. You would be well served to make an appointment with the Harleys.

Also, it takes a long time to get past the betrayal. You will be far more recovered then she will, and that is when you are going to need to be even kinder and more gentle with your wife.

I am glad you are going to keep an eye on your children also. Children can feel betrayal also. And once again, just cause a healthy child is born from the affair, does not erase the damage the affair caused to the whole family. Enjoy the good days, use them for building blocks for a new foundation. Then be aware that you could go a few days, where things seem to be on the mend, she gets triggered and she will be agitated, angry and upset and it will catch you off guard.

This horrible attack on her and your family can be healed, but it severe and needs to be tended to in a thoughtfull manner. Ignoring the OW is obvious. Also, it would do your nuclear family a ton of good to spend some quality time as just that...no affair issues, no oc around, just you, your wife and your COM. Put all the drama aside for a late summer weekend. Spend time just being. Have fun with each other, as a family. No outside drama, nothing but easy, relaxed family fun.

Thanks Lynn, (those are words I thought I would never say :-))


Well, it seemed to fit and it got me to thinking.


This has happened more than a few times. Current stratagy is to see if she will let me hold her (not a rejection yet), then listen, then tell her I love her and have ZERO plans to leave.

It is deflating when it happens, but I know it is a part of the process. I know it may go on for years. She is worth it.


TH

You are all absolutely right! The child is just a child but the sanctification of our marriage came first and you destroid that.You are willing to give up your childeren of marriage for this other girl. That to me sais they are not all equal to you.

Hi Mrs. TH, welcome to MB. Glad to see you here.

This will be interesting.............

No, this is not interesting this is the most unbarable times in my life and I say I have had a few. If you really want to fill my love bank you should stop reading these posts because you are not hearing word for word what the ladies are saying.You are doing what big daddy warbuck wants. It's my turn and I think you don't give these woman any credit and they have been through ****** and back. If you were really meeting my needs all these years then you could have the audasity to say its a two way street but.....
Is there enough water and food to go around. I think my point is that I really do need you but not if your going to keep driving the point that everything is good now that we have worked out the child sitch.We have not jointly agreed to visitation, you were going to leave if I did not accept it.If you want advise and thats why I think you are here then you have to be willing to take it and your not so why don't you get off and start spending your energys being with me and the boys.Call the Harleys, wow thats a great idea why didn't I think of that! Oh I did....

P.S. I love you so deeply I am willing to go through this unbarable life!!!!!!!!!!!!

EXCUSE ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you have these feelings, then you best get them out.
I am feeling like I am talking to two diffenrt women.

TH

TH and Mrs.TH,
Please do yourselves a favor and schedule a first session with the Harleys.

TH, it is just as I suspected, Mrs.TH agreed out of fear to have visitation. Just because you say you are not leaving, she is not ready to trust or believe you. Many here do that and invite more misery into their lives in order to preserve the original family. They do it, and regret it, and have a life of constant pain.

The marriage must come first.

Then, after your wife feels safe again, you may discuss what to do. She may never want oc around. What she wants right now is for you to let go of oc and come back to her and your c's.

To think that you can have all of your c's AND your wife would want to embrace the situation right now is selfish thinking. Affair thinking.

I'll pray today for you two.

I'm also pulling for you both.

Until you can understand just what has happened to your wife, you will not be able to move past this.

If you love her, listen to the few words she typed here. Listen with a compassionate heart and mind.

I remember her feelings. My husband came to my rescue after months of discussions and tears. Just as I was about to give up on us her realized what he wanted. I could no longer deal with it all and was about to give him a divorce.

In OUR case n/c was the only way I could fathom staying married. In OUR case this many years later, he agrees. He's so happy we endured and stayed together.

It is totally unbearable for a wife to open her arms to another womans child with her husband so soon after d-day. Again I'll tell you, make her first. Show her she's the single most important thing here.

Ok, I'm finished preaching. Sorry if you think I'm being hard on you TH. Please hear the Mrs.....

TH, I agree with gem CALL THE HARLEY'S!!! Get a plan for your marriage. Your DW has already shown a major willingness to do whatever is necessary to keep your home intact for your boys. Give her the same respect, please.

Greetings all,

Well I thought it would be rude to disapear without saying why. W thinks I could spend the time posting better with her and the kids. Odd, I thought it was helping.

But anyway, so unless there is a change in the W's thoughts, you most likely won't see me for a while.

We did talk a lot last night.I will let her tell you what the results were, I seem to be reading things wrong these days.

I'm starting to think calling the Harleys is a darn good idea too!

Thanks Everybody, (you ALL have helped me a lot)

TH

TroubledH,

Nice of you to let us all know. None of us would think it were rude if you disappeared, I don't think, but most of us would be wondering what happened.

Wishing you and MrsTH the best, do come by occassionally and let us know how things are. I look forward to reading any posts by MrsTH too to get her perspective on things.

CalifWoman

I can't thank you enough, he did completely change his thinking in the last month or so. Evberything you have talked about has been so real for me. He pushed the child and now he sees that wasn't a great idea. The child is innocent, I can't yank the relationship between her and my boys. They would ask too many questions and the attachment right now even though she is just 3 yrs. old I am just going to have to figure out how I am suppose to be the go-between in 5 months? Do you all feel the need to have contact with them because that is the furthist from my core. Troubled H sais you keep your friends close and you keep your enamies closer. I think I would like to move to Ice Land, Well that is not possible! I guess I will let the Harley's explain that one too me.For 185$ I hope they don't give TH'S advice,HEHE. If he really needs you guys than he should post. It just seemed like he was not hearing you fully, but than Imagine if he was that compasoinate in the way you have spoken I would think something was horrably wrong. I married a man. JR ring a bell,HEHE. That is the whole problem in the first place, they don't think like us so we have to take that into consideration. Life is so complicated. I don't want to have to make decisions based in lousy choices!

WOW, Mrs. TH. I am glad to see you here. Seems like you and TH were on at the same time too!! Cool.

Anyway, I think that you ALL need to slow way down, take a deep breath and DO NOTHING for a bit. There is absolutely no reason, to rush any of this. None at all.

I understand your concern for your children, it is where your concern needs to be. I wouldn't be worried about ceasing all contact with oc right now. It has only been what, a month???

I like that you are going to counsel with the Harleys. It is vital that TH hear you. I think he was coming around, but he has to know from the depths of his soul, that you and your children are the ones who have been hurt here. You and your children are the ones who were betrayed. I know that TH even thinks I must hate oc. Nope. I just don't see oc as the above all, most important person in the mix. That is where so many people get tripped up. I see YOUR responsiblity being YOUR children. Somebody has to put them first, or they get run over by the "oc is innocent, mantra" Sure, they are. But so are your children and so are you.

Maybe it is time for everyone to just calm down and back up . OW/oc can go on with their lives for a bit, I'm sure oc will be fine. Then start with the basics, and that is what you want and what you will have in YOUR marriage. Don't think what is best for your kids, or oc, or even your husband. Think of what YOU want and what YOU will have in your life. Being totall, 100% honest. That is your starting point. You don't have to see the oc to make it easy on your husband or the oc, etc. If you choose to have oc in your life, then YOU get to have lots of input. Do you want to have the ow involved? Or do you want a 3rd party to take care of the handoff? I know of people who have the handoff at a church. Stuff like that. If you have contact, how much? Since your husband is the father of that child, the ow can't prevent YOU from doing anything with/for that child, as long as you have your husbands blessing. Afterall, he has just as much right to make decisions as she does. Do not allow the ow to play the games....which are very common...... She may have a fit when YOU pick up the child, or if YOU take the child to the store, etc. Suddenly the reality that you are in her childs life, but SHE IS NOT IN YOUR HUSBANDS LIFE, drives them to be aggressive. They start toying with you. Playing games.

Just take care of YOU cause you matter too. This isn't just about the oc. Not even close. This is YOUR life, and YOU owe it to your children to provide them a stable loving home. YOU are all they have right now. Fight for them to live a live of calm and peace. They shouldn't have to shoulder the sin of their father.

But please, slow down. Breathe and take care of yourself. Do not let the OW/OC situation drive your decision. THEY ARE NOT IN YOUR MARRIAGE. YOUR MARRIAGE IS YOU AND YOUR HUSBAND.

Good Luck

>I think I would like to move to Ice Land

Meet you there! I'm considering the next boat.

Hugs MrsTH (MRSTH)

LynnG,
I am so glad you posted what you did to Mrs.TH. I absolutely agree with all you've posted. It is Mrs.TH's life~ It's what I've been trying to say here but not with the right words. Her opinion DOES count.

So glad about the session w/the Harleys, MrsTH. They will help you out. They were great with me and my H, and I have a young friend using their advice now.

And Dealan-de, I'm praying for ya~ Things will settle down soon. You've come too far to give anything up.
You know, when I was thick into our problems, I wanted to live in Kosovo. To me it seemed all they worried about was sweeping out their dirt floored tents and dinner.... so simple.... And here I was worrying and crying about everything.

sorry for the TJ.

Mrs.TH praying for you too.

It is what we have been trying again and again to say, slow down, fix the marriage, and then together figure a way that will make you both happy. It takes time, but the time is worth it if done right the first time. If not you will be looking at years of frustration, and all the children will feel that. Doing it right way is better for you, your marriage and the children.

when you have your appointment, be very very open and honest exacatly how you feel, get all the dirt out now, so it can be dealt with and able to move on, not being very honest in the session, is just to keep building up inside you and resement and bitterness will set in. this time is very crucial, on building a strong foundation for your marriage.

Good luck hun and will keep you in my thoughts

Well I guess this means I get to post again.

Lynn, please elaborate on:


Exactly what burdens are my sons going to shoulder?


How should MrsTH go about this?


Really?????????
Last time I checked I was at home last night. In fact I was watching the kids most of the day while the Mrs was shopping. I also went to work to make sure my family was provided for. I gave them each a hug and kiss before I went to work this morning. I saw my family at the park today for lunch. I pushed my youngest son on the swing.
Ect............

Lynn, let's ask MrsTH this:

MrsTH, do you think I am good father to our sons?

I think MrsTH might be in a better position to make a judgment like that.


TH

See ya at home tonight MrsTH!!!!! :-)

Hey! Don't let that boat leave without me!

TH, don't get so defensive with Lynn. Coming from THIS side of the OC fence ITA with what she said to your W. She is NOT saying you aren't a good father, she IS saying that during your A and until you fully "get it" (and I know you will) your W is the ONE consistant presence in your son's lives.

Your kidding right?

Look, I am trying to play nice with Lynn, really I am, but I think my questions are fair. She put it out there, I would like more detail and justification for it.

There was one or two other statements above that I'll just "let go".

TH

No, I am not kidding cuz she really is trying to help your DW. I know hard to let it all go isn't it? Did you call the Harley's yet? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I understand you all perfectly, and yes he is now giving us all the attention we deserved for so long. Did he step away from the family, absolutly,and does he have to make up for it YES.We do need to call the harleys and make things agreeable for both of us.

TH agreed to the visitation schedual and did not get a lawyer. Paperwork is all signed by a judge now.If we miss two visits she will take away his visitation rights. If I take that away from TH he would be so anguished and it would affect our household and probably put him in a state of depression. I want him to be able to work on our relationship. Right now my mil has to be at every visit. I really wanted the ow parents to be the go between. In the paperwork it stated that she was to be in eye site of the visitation. I said absolutely not so she agreed to just do the drop off but her parents think she is there. Even when she drives 3 hrs. to my mil house. She has lied to her parents and told them that was happening and its not. TH sais leave it alone.I wanted to rite a letter to thier house because she lives with them and ask if they would please be the go-between but I am not sure?

Shoulder the sin of their father:
Translation....
Mrs TH is their Mom. If she's unhappy the whole family will feel it. She's unhappy TH, she's troubled.
Your sons 'burdens ' are to explain in the future just how their sister doesn't have sweet Mrs.TH for a mom.

MrsTH should see a lawyer (if you haven't already given too much to ow) and protect her kids, get the child support before too much is given to ow for hers and yours offspring, leaving crumbs for the Mrs. It is often done in most states.
You come across as a flippant fool TH~

You can't possibly proclaim love for the mother of your boys and wife of all of these years and still seem as protective of oc/ow and yourself~

My h told me it will take you some time to see the fool you are. I am living witness to his testimony.

My h was home at night too after d-day, in body, not mind, so I beg you to let us interject where we see fit about your actions.

Dr. Harley or his help will work it out.


You are so far deep into the fog, it'll take the Titanic and everyone from that era to help you see just what your wife sees and feels, let alone your young sons.

I bid you the best of life with your family, but you must come to terms with something, you do not get to call the shots. MrsTh is alive and well and has a mind.

Sorry Mr.TH You are way too defensive.
Debi

You are kidding right??? I cannot believe that the OW is walking all over you like that MrTH!! (sigh) that is why we have stressed so much to get attorney! Do it the legal way, DNA and lawyer!! I am so glad in my state they have the new law that any child born out of wedlock that a DNA test HAS to be done now. I just cant get over that you gave your wife no choice in the beginning but let OW call shots like that :-(


Once you take full responsibilty of your actions you will see exactly what we are trying to say. For me the sin is not about OC it is about the sin of the A. And your sin will somehow someway effect the way they turn out. You might not see it now but someday you will. My hope with my COM is that they learn what NOT to do in a marriage.


why?

They afraid that you will hurt her?? You have proven already to be a better person. And no matter what they think you are her step mother. As long as you are married to H you are that. You did not have a choice in that, it wasnt like you met H and he had children already. there you would of had a choice, marry him and become their step mom or move on. But you wasnt left that choice, she made that decision for you, by sleeping with your H she chose you to be her child other mom.

These are very very good examples why the marriage should of been placed first. You two need to fix it first then together as man and wife stand as a united front. Decsion should of been made together and backed each other up. With that the OW would not have all the say so, because he is the father and can advantage of all his rights.


Dont forget about youself, right now you are the one that you should be concerned about. Find what is really going to be really make you happy, find what it will take for you to forgive and go on, once you are happy you can only then truely make others happy. The ball is in your court dont give that up to fast, make sure that the marriage is on more sound ground before you let it go.


Please believe that part it is soooooo true!!! I am proof of that, you can trust me or I can give you all the details how bad it can get and so many more can tell you their stories.


If that is what you really need then stand firm, dont give it as a something you hope or a choice, give it as what HAS to be done. marriage is the most important thing right now.

TH,


Shouldering the sins of the father? Well for starters, you are shoving the oc down their throats. You have threatened their safe haven by demanding visitation with the oc, and your wife hasn't even had a chance to grasp what the heck has happened here. NOW I read where you have a signed visitation agreement.....boy this all happened at warped speed. And your wife feels that YOU will be upset if she doesn't agree with all of this????????? How is this NOT going to affect your children? Your wife thinks you would be all depressed, etal if you don't have contact, but what about HER depression? Do you think about what this has done to HER? How is that going to affect your children?

Fight for calm and peace??? By standing up for her children and saying NO....STOP.....until this marriage is on strong footing, healed we will not be doing visitations in this home, or making deals on visitation UNITL WE KNOW WHAT WILL WORK FOR ALL....Yet, you have signed an agreement that if you miss two visitations you will lose that right???? What state are you in? What happens to the ow if she doesn't let you see oc on two occaisions? GET A LAYWER NOW and get a decent set up here. You were lead around and being contolled by the OW....which is why the COM ONLY HAVE THEIR MOTHER right now. You are allowing what is "best for ow/oc" to shut out the COM. The visitation agreement has proven such.

How sad.

You may be a good dad, when you are home. But you are putting, and have put the needs of the oc above those children....again, by signing the visitation agreement BEFORE you and your wife even had a chance to see if this was going to work. You wife is the only adult in this mix who the COM have. You certainly don't seem to care if their home life is ripped apart. If you did, you would have hired an attorney to PROTECT your family from this very agreement you signed.

I think your wife needs to speak to a laywer today and get herself protected. I remember you saying how you would leave her for the OW if she didn't agree to the oc being around, and how you would take her children from her too.

I know you dislike me. Understandable, being that I am totally understanding of the ****** your wife is in, and how cruel this all looks towards your COM. But can you at least step back and think about what this is doing to your family? Do you really believe that bringing that oc into your home is going to fix anything? Why is the oc's feelings more important then your COM?

One thing I am not TH, is someone's lady...I am my own woman with my own ideas...they happen to be very much like others on this board. But I would like to answer your question. When my H and I decided on NC, I didn't ask him to do anything, and I get the impression that many of the ladies didn't either. Their H's made the decision about NC...I don't look at it like he is casting away another child. I want him not to look away from one child, but to look out for the other children. He had no problems acting as though he had no responsibilities once....I don't accept that he can't put US first now. There are difficult decisions to be made...I didn't make this difficult, the COMs didn't make this difficult and the OC didn't make this difficult. Everyone will have to make sacrifices....and I'm not sacrificing my state of mind for the benefit of the OC. It is a child and they are innocent, but so am I and so is my family and NOONE, not even the OC tops that.

No one is asking you to cast away OC, just to take the proper steps to heal your M and to hire a lawyer and get better visitation arrangements. I for one am shocked you forced your W's hand in all of this and then agreed to that kind of visitation. You are allowing xOW wayyyyyy too much control. OC is yours too (well we assume she is, since you havn't had DNA testing), you should have more of a say in her life. She's 3 yrs old right, not 3 months old. If OC is a concern of your's, you should consider standing up for your rights, if xOW gets upset, ohfreakinwell. I think your W would respect you more if you'd stop cowtowing to the xOW's demands and really show that the OC is your interest, not making the xOW "happy".

I am shocked xOW tried to demand visitation to be in her sight, do you get to see how she is treating OC 24/7? You have to trust in the fact she is well taken care of, and vice versa. She should know you wouldn't hurt OC, you've never demonstrated ill will towards the OC, right??? This is just another example of xOW attempting to control the situation, because you stayed in your M.

You know I can't jump on him for this one...even though I'm trying ( <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />)....men hate confrontations, especially when they feel guilty about the stitch. I'm sure that Mr. TH doesn't want to cause waves with the OW because he feels responsible for what has happened and Mrs. TH wants him to take a stand (with her) to show the OW the boundaries that have been set in motion.

Let me tell you a story Mr. TH that may help you a little. My H was married previously, and after we got married, his Ex would only call him on his cell phone...which I found utterly disrespectful...and told him so. For him, it wasn't a big deal...so I told her how I felt, and she basically ignored me, even though I said it very nicely, and continued to call him on the cell. She was expressing to me that as long as my H allowed it, I could go to ******. So finally I put my foot down with my H...and I told him that I wanted him to call her, IN FRONT of me and to inform her that because I felt it to be disrespectful, she should contact him via the house phone. If you disrespect my wife...you disrespect me. When he finally did it (which was right around DDay (I made him do alot of stuff after DDay)....his Ex realized that HE wouldn't allow her to disrespect me therefore....her attitude and behavior changed.

What I think would be important for Mrs. TH right now is for you to set those boundaries with the OW and do it as a united front with your wife. Does any of this make sense?

Well, like I said before, this was going to be interesting.

As far as not liking Lynn, there are glimmers of compassion that I can see. I am not interested in trowing rocks at her anymore. I know where she stands, she knows where I stand. I apperaciate the time she has taken to post to me.

Gem,

I am disapointed in you, you can call me a fool all you want and be insulting. Shout it from the rooftops if it makes you feel better. I don't care. If you want to convince me or other men to think your way, take a look how Kimmy will often write to me. She is one lady I do truly RESPECT. I can accept blunt, I will ignore rude. No, this does not mean I think Kimmy agrees with me or how I have done things. But I do know that she has TRUELY tried to help me and my W.


To whom it may concern,

There is a misunderstanding about how the visitation works.
WE WILL NOT LOSE VISITATION as it was described above.
I have explained to MrsTH HOW IS REALLY DOES WORK. I thought I was clear before, but apparetly I was not. I guess I can thank this board for bring this issue up. I will let her describe it for you all if she so chooses.

As far a DNA and Lawyers.

The daughter is mine, I know it. I have ZERO dought. If the W wants it, it can be agranged to get a DNA test. I dought OW would object, she was expecting it. As far as who the legal father is. Well I have a FINDING OF FACT in a COURT OF LAW that states I am the father.

It does appear to me that many of you would be happy if I went to war with OW. To me that creates a lot of drama that my family does not need. CS in our case is not breaking the bank. It not free, but not devastating like I hear so many cases here.

The legal aspects of this case is OVER. CS and Visitation is SET. OW has agreed that she(the OW) is not to be present.
Visitation is considerably more generous to us than many others in Washington State could expect to get.

Are there a few hoops to jump in the first year? Yes. But that compared with the drama of court is a small price to pay in both money AND emotional toll.

OW to my last knowledge is moving on with her life. I don't get emails, telephone calls, letters, etc........

My W is not harased, emailed, called, ect... by my former OW. There are no threats, or 'suggestions" about how we are as parents when the daugther is with us. When she (daughter) is with us, WE ARE HER PARENTS. My W has the same authority as I do when daugther is present. There is NO SPECIAL TREATMENT.

All communication is done thru my mom. I have asked mom not to give me any details about OW's life. The less I know the better.

I have chosen who I want to be with. It is my W.

My W and I have now talked more about how to deal with my daughter. WE ARE BOTH AGREED THAT VISITATION IS OK. Sorry if that makes some of you mad, but I don't give a hoot wether you all like it or not. I am only concerned about the opinion of my W on this matter.

I love my W, and she loves me. That about sums it up.
WE BOTH FEEL WE CAN MAKE IT.

TH

Mr. TH,

I personally am happy if you and your wife have come to a consensus. I think that is all we want...concensus...no ultimatums. Noone here can even try to act as though we have walked in your shoes or that of your wife's.

I can tell you personally that I don't want you or my H at war with anyone, not even the woman that he betrayed me with, but I also don't want friendliness, closeness, or anything like it. I want business, and business only.

I believe that you both can make it and I'm happy for you. I think the reason that some speak so highly of doing things legally...people change with the times....as long as everyone gets along and one person is doing what the other wants...there are no problems, but the minute someone feels used or overlooked, it can get shady...when it's done legally and cordially, it's written and the parameters are set, but if your comfortable then I agree that you and your wife should do what you feel comfortable doing. Its just a suggestion, one that saves alot of heartache at times...but I have also heard of things working out well without legalities.

I wish you and Mrs. TH nothing but the best. I mean that sincerely.

I am very happy to read the above TH. I think you are taking our posts in a way not intended. Everyone is simply advocating that you hear your W's pain and put her first. That truly is it. You know that we ALL here are rooting for your M, don't you? So many people have taken time to post to you and the Mrs. because we care. One marriage at a time is how I see it. It will take your DW at least a year or two to get through the emotional trauma, please keep that in mind as you go through visitation etc. I am very, very happy to hear that you have NC with the XOW.

To be honest, with some of the posts, I do wonder what the ageanda is.

TH,
Faithful follower has taken the words from my mouth. I wasn't shouting 'fool' from the rooftops. I apologize for rudeness. I just thought your wifes voice wasn't being heard and I still feel she'd like to give up oc visits until she has a chance to regroup without having oc in her face.

I may be wrong, have been many times before.

Also she worrys about your Mom being a go between. Perhaps she feels double betrayal. I can't imagine how I would have felt in my MIL involved herself. Our son would have been terribly hurt too. He was much older than your boys.

The only agenda here is to help out your wife. Feel her pain. Do what makes her feel most comfortable for now. That's it.

I do think you want your w and family. I really do. Sometimes it's how you come across as the only one who can decide how things should be done and I fear Mrs.TH will have an eruption of anger sometime in the future over everything.
You keep her hands tied allowing her no voice and she needs to be heard right now.

I know you love all of your kids, but one is causing your wife incredible pain and guilt.

If you can take a vacation from that 'one' for maybe 6-8 mos. and give your wife all of your attention, she may begin to feel differently.

I HAVE been in her shoes you know?

Maybe I'll just keep out of it from now on. Perhaps I'm seeing it all wrong.

Anyway, sorry for being rude, at time you evoke the worst of me and I put it in print too quick~

I think I told you, TH, that I experienced this very double betrayal due to my MIL becoming "best friends" with the OW and having the OC to her home and introducing the OW/OC to my innocent neice and nephews all behind my back. My MIL gave up two lovely grandchildren for one and she gave up a loving DIL for a skanky untrustworthy "friend" who was only using her (I have it in her own words) to further her own agenda. So please understand we here have been in your W's shoes, we understand her pain. We ARE rooting for your marriage.

You feel that way because you are still reading defensively. Maybe you and your W need more time talking, openely, w/o threats of you leaving if she doesn't do what you want. If you are half as defensive with her as you are here, she must be scared to be honest with you about her feelings. You keep demonstrating a my way or the highway attitude that is not condusive to a good recovery.

I'm not trying to beat you up, just stating my observations.

Tisk, Tisk, I don't think you have been reading all the posts before posting yourself.

I have been guilty at times too, but I will ask that you "re-read" before I consider your statements.

TH

Whatever TH... good luck to you and your wife. Cause you definitely need it.

You've conviently deleted the posts where you are threatening your wife with a D if she doesn't agree to visitation. And the ones where you go on and on about being concerned about YOUR needs being met.

So, if others want to continue to bang their head against the wall with you, they can have at it. You aren't worth the time anymore. Your BETRAYED W is, but you sure aren't.

Well, I can speak for myself...I am pulling for your marriage to work. I give my opinion from being in your wife's shoes. However, I will not assume to know what you both discuss during your private time. I know what it would take for me to trust my H again...and its alot, and to add a child in the mix is an incredible thing. I wish you the best.

No one needs to bang thier head, I have been willing to listen the whole time. I just may not agree with your positions.

If you are going make accusations about what I am thinking or doing, then I would ask that you at least have the courtesy to read the thread and get up to date before you try and take me to task.

I did not mean to be condesending, it was meant with some humor. Sorry if it came off wrong.

I have apperciated the time people have taken to post to me.

BTW, if I really wanted to hide everything, I would have never setup a computer for my W to use with a SHORTCUT to this forum. I could have also denied being TH.

TH

TH. I wish to thank you. You have totally highlighed virtully every reason I have ever given for why it is so important for BW to stand up and fight for what she wants in her own life. I have told them to get to a laywer and protect their family finances for the COM. I have told them to be totally honest and upfront with what it is they want to do/accept into their own lives. I have warned them of allowing the tail to wag the dog, and to fight back. Your story is a classic example of the that. Manipulation and cruelty at its harshest.

Virtually everything that has happened on this thread is proof of how vital it is they stand up and fight for themselves FIRST. Your wife has been manipulated and forced into having contact...with out care or concern of how she feels about it. Your children have been run over by you/ow/oc and you put them secondary to the "innocent oc". Never even bothering to wonder how this will hurt them. Just taking them for granted that they will accept this....cause it is "bests for the oc". When did you ever stop and think if this was best for them????? Why did your wife and children have to sacrifice for your sin? Shouldn't you have been the one to sacrfice?

I am so glad you posted here, cause it is proof positive of how it is up to the BW to look out for herself and her children, cause her husband has proven to not be reliable at doing so.

So, while I wish you the best and hope that you can recover, the way it is set up right now, and the way you controlled your wife, and manipulated and forced her, I worry about her and her children. You run off and sign visitation agreements without care or concern for what your family is feeling, just the oc. You don't even have the intelligience to get a DNA test?????? There are so many things done 1/2 assed and wrong here it boggles the mind. It is simply astounding that you take this all with such a cavalier attitude. Simply amazing.

Your wife and children deserve better. They deserve a husband/father who will actually put their needs first. One who realizes how much harm he has done to that family, and feels it to the depths of his sole. Not some simple minded deluded idiot who stabs his family in the back and then complains if they dare bleed.

Mrs. TH. I think you should call the Harleys yourself, and then call a good laywer....just in case.

Thank you Lynn

[color:"red"] ditto [/color]

Pep

Hi Lynn,

You keep sending love notes like this and people are going to start to think. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I also see you have resorted to name calling again. I can't begin to tell you how impressed I am with that.

You can banter on about what you think I did right, wrong or whatever. Honestly, it doesn't matter.

Like I have posted before, it is only important what my W thinks. My W and I have had several discussion about all kinds of issues that had plauged our M. We are both agreed that we want to move on together.

As far as the "Harleys and Lawyer" bit. My W is a fully capable woman, if she thinks that is what is in her best interest, I would not stop her, I couldn't even if I wanted too. She is free to do as she wishes and has done exactly that. You may never want to be married to me, but so far my W wants to stick with me, and I want to stick with her.


This is probley the most insulting thing you have said to me. I mean just the part I quoted. It's insulting because I know it to be a lie. Just be blunt like you are the rest of the time and we will be just fine.


OK Lynn, tell me which part of the agreement do you object to? That's right, niether W or I has given much detail. That means you are talking "out of you butt" about the agreements. So how would you know if they were harmfull or not? How would you have known if a lawyer could have gotten a "better deal"? YOU DON"T!

I on the other hand did do my homework and DO HAVE THE FACTS. I can admit that I should have got a lawyer to keep ethical distance between me and the OW, but don't try to tell me that I or my family got finacialy "ran over". You don't have the facts to make that kind of judgement.

The rest of your argument to me is a bunch of "hot air". I think you got some anger issues to deal with Lynn.
Again, you simply do not have enough updated information to make those kinds of accusations, and I nor my W don't have enough time or desire to spoon feed facts to you.

TH

Hi TH! We miss you and your lovely DW. Hope the recovery process is going well.

Hi Faith,

Good to see you too. I had to go to San Jose again. I got to fly this time! I saw Lynn's "love note" about three days ago but was just to busy to responed to anything. They tend to work my butt off when I go there. Glad to be back home in the Seattle area with MrsTH and the kids.

I see the "fight club" is back in buisness.<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Hope all is going well in your part of the world.

TH

TH, are you for real? You come here a mere 2 months ago dissing your wife, how you will leave if she doesn't give in to your demands, etc. You put your oc above all, and then as Familycomesfirst says, you delete it all, to hide your verbal assaults.

You misquote me on my "dirt on the bottom of the shoe" remark, trying to horrify people that I said that about a child....when in fact I wrote it in 2004 about the OW not mattering to the decisions made in a marriage. But, what is most interesting is you reading that far back..how bizzare. How strange.

Either way, I see you making these passive aggressive comments on here, nothing makes any sense. I have read plenty what you have written....in mere weeks...to make an opinion. Your wife would be wise to call the Harleys and get a laywer.

That is a fair question. The short answer is yes.

Here is the longer answer:

As I keep saying here, I did read the books. I gave my W and I an fair chance to try and fill each others needs. It has proven successfull. I see how our M can work.

Ask me a few months ago and I would have said 'NO WAY", "Cant't Happen". Once I knew what my W REALLY wanted from me, I started to focus energy in those areas. Am I perfect, No, but I can tell just from the way she acts at me that I must be doing something right.

If she decides to post again, perhaps she would tell you if my efforts have been suscessfull. Lately, she seems more interested in Full Tilt Poker. She is really good at it.


It was "GUM stuck on the bottom of your shoe that needs to be scraped off" and I read it three times just to make sure. Perhaps you know how to use the Edit/Delete button too?

In any case, I was going to drop this, but you keep bringing it up. Sucks to feel like you are mis quoted (tared and feathered) doesn't it? I know exactly how you feel!

Here is a case in point:


You see it as "dissing", I saw it as asking blunt questions.
Yes I was still wraped up thinking about if I had made a mistake by staying with my W, Yada yada yada....

I was really questioning if we could make it. It's a question I no longer have to ask. I know we will.

If you go back and look at some of the statement you made to me, can you honestly say you were tring to help?

If you were, who were you trying to help? How did you possably think that by being that insultive, that somehow I would come around to your way of thinking? What was your goal?

TH

You came here, with flippant remarks about demanding this or that from your wife, veiled threats if she doesn't accept. That was not blunt questions, but dissing of her, the victim here, along with her children. Knowing your wife was hurting, shocked, and upset, you STILL were all excited about the oc visiting your family. As if getting that done was all that mattered.

You were told by many others, and not just me to slow down, and asked what was the hurry. Of course by then you had deleted all your posts, and tried to make it look that others were being harsh and mean to you, that somehow you were being picked on by the mean nasty BW's.....I've seen that before on here....

Gum or Dirt, it doesn't matter. The oc is not part of the decision making process. Go and read ALL my posts and you will see I am not anti oc. I am just anti "what is best for oc" CAUSE WHAT IS BEST FOR OC MAY NOT BE WHAT IS BEST FOR OTHERS.

I was trying to wake you up to the harm you had done to your wife and family. How your thinking only of oc was wrong, that there were many victims here. But all you and ow supporters ever see or think is 'what about the oc" And if/when anyone talks of protecting their own family from this, they are told to be adult, and how cruel it is. As if somehow the BW's need to be a complete doormat now that the oc is here....sorry. They have a life to live and choices to make too. And they don't have to give one thought to ow/oc while they make that choice.

I don't care if you come around to MY way of thinking. However, it is vital to your marriage that you wake up and come around to face THE DAMAGE that you have done. I don't care if you like me or not. But you are so flippant and cavalier about your family. And by family, I mean your wife and the children of the marraige. You seem to have moved at warped speed here....two months ago all but ready to destroy them, now suddenly your life is a rose garden? All is happy. Yeah. Ok. Whatever.

"two months ago all but ready to destroy them, now suddenly your life is a rose garden? All is happy. Yeah. Ok. Whatever."

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Amen to that Lynn!!!! So true, it just plain doesn't happen that fast. Anyone who thinks so, is kidding themselves.

Now I do belive there is some truth to this. I would sugest you work on your presentation skills however. It would be MUCH better recieved.


There are many sides to the story of an A, I suggest you take all of them into account. Dr H writes a lot about this in the books I have read.


Then for who's benifit are you posting to me? What is your goal?


I didn't have to try, it was self evident. Is it any wonder why there is only me( a male WS with baby) here?


I was not as resitance to saving my M as you think I was.
It is I who reached for help, and I who came here looking for answers. I even did as requested and showed her this site. My W is free to do as she pleases, and has done just that. She has the resources to leave me or get a lawyer if that is what she wants. I can't FORCE her to do squat!

Things are not a "Rose Garden", but things are moving in the right direction. I do look forwared to comming home everynight now. Do you have a problem with that?

Would you ridicule MrsTH if she decided that C was OK, or just me because I dare say that I would like my daughter to be a part of our family?


I'm indiffernt to you at this point. I can see by some of the previous posters that my view of you is shared by many.
I meant it when I said I would be willing to stop kicking you around. It feels rather pointless now.

You keep posting at me, and I am silly enough to keep responding. If it makes you feel any better, when it comes to my detractors, I generally prefer to only post back to you. No need to deal with the minions when I can deal with the leader.

TH

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

? minions ?

you have NO IDEA how incorrect this assumption is !

Pep

I have been indifferent to you from the get go. It is only your wife and her children that I feel for. As for your wife, if she was here and said she wanted contact, I would, as I have always in the past supported her 100%.

You are are perfect example of why women should not waste their time crying and to get moving with a plan for their future and what it is they want. Cause it is ow driven crap that you spew that knives the family in the back more.

As for insulting the others on here, what a rude and condescending thing to say to them. But considering you show the emotional maturity of a gnat, it is hardly surprising. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

to be called a minion by someone I spent my time & energy trying to help recover his marriage is like a sudden slap!

how <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> rude!

Pep

Hello Pepper,

You were not the intended target of that comment.
Kimmy has a great deal of repect for you, as I do for her,
so in this case I will simply plead NO-Contest.

Unlike Lynn, inanutshell, or familycomesfirst, I had always felt you were trying to help me.

The minions I refer too are those simply wanting to express anger or hate or justify thier years of thinking. I would lying if I said there words did not cause me to think from time to time, however for the most part, I belive they have an agenda to promote.

I did ask MrsTH about the comments she made here. We had a lot of conversation about it. I am not in a postion to speak for her, so if and when she ever decides to take the time to post again, she can let you all know how she thinks things are going.

Lynn,


Pot calling the Kettle black wouldn't you say?

Besides, if they are simply going to spout that same venom as you, it just plain easier to deal with the worst of the bunch.

TH

nevertheless .... unacceptable

Pep

If your going to apply the "unacceptable" label to me. Then you should at least be fair and call it out for a few others as well!

Sorry Pepper, I will stop this silly "fight club" now.
This is not doing anybody any good.

TH

Yes, you are right, we'd rather help your W. And as far as that second paragraph... right back atcha. You've promoted your agenda since day one. You threatened your wife with a D if she didn't immediately consent to C. You laugh in the face of people who have been down your road and back again. All you see it is as they are projecting their hate??? You only want to hear from people who will pat you on the back. Well, that won't happen here. It's obvious you want to be seen as the hero because you stayed in your M and you are taking such a huge risk <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> that your wife will MEET YOUR NEEDS (which was all you could talk about when you got here, not much mentioned about her needs AT ALL.)

The true hero here is your W. And if you think people are promoting an "agenda" because they support her. All I have to say is YOU WOULD think that... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Pep- I agree - unacceptable. Yet, there is a chinese phrase which fits Mr TH very well in this insult delivery - if the "gift" is not received, to whom does the gift belong?" The insult tells us much more about the man than about those he directs his comments to.

Mr TH has been condescending, arrogant and prideful in his approach to the betrayed spouses on this web site - especially those who would challenge his attitude and seek to bless him with the gift of humility that could heal his marriage, and make it stronger. Apparently, he only seeks to be "right". How truly sad for him the wasted opportunity to truly learn how to BUILD his marriage... He probably doesn't know that in order for him to truly find joy in his marriage, he would have to set aside all pride and arrogance, and find empathy for his wife - but pride and arrogance prevent the development of that skill.

I think the best response to this man is the same I would give a teen with a foul mouth - limited attention. As he once told me - if I would change my delivery he might take me seriously... An apology for his recent delivery would be a good start.

not YOU per se
but
your behavior
is what I find
unacceptable

change your behavior
and be a happier man

Pep

Hi Pepper,

Well if I am going to get scolded, I will accept it from Kimmy and You.

If I have personally offened you, then I am sincerly sorry.
It was NEVER my intent.

I may be a lot of things, but ungrateful is not one of them.
Like Kimmy, I know you reached out to me with the real intent of helping me and my M.
.
I know I didn’t follow all your advice, but I ALWAYS considered what you had to say.

Regardless of what you may think of me, I AM gratefull for the efforts you took.

You may not see it or believe it, but My W and I are doing much better. With Gods help I know we will make it the long haul.

I regret my participation in this circus of a thread and allowing it to get out of hand. I should have been a bigger person.

TH

Mr. TH, I wish you and your wife the best...I would like to comment on the "minions" part....

I have said this a billion times...just because I agree with Lynn, does not make me some kind of follower....she says things bluntly, and as a BS...that's what you need...total, complete, blunt responses...no BS (not Betrayed Spouse)...I had enough of that from my H. I needed someone to tell me to get a hold of myself, to get my act together...I needed that sincerely...and I thank her for it. She's been dealing with this for a long time, and I THANK her for taking her time to help me.

When she said that she is not anti OC, but....I couldn't have agreed with her more. There is no politically correct way to say that the OC is not my first priority, never will be. I come before the OC...my family comes before the OC.... My friends, even some of my co-workers...come before the OC. I have no shame in saying that. Just because we are talking about a child doesn't make the stitch different and make me some horrible ogre, because bluntly, I could care less. I don't say that to be mean or rude, I say that because its the truth...and its the truth for me without Lynn backing it up or not. My thought process is very similar to Lynn's...I'm just not as good with words. I try though, and I'm not a "minion", I'm me.

CH,

I can tell the difference between those who are simply interested in throwing insults back and forth, and those who were trying to help. I don’t remember you throwing stones at me. I have not bothered to look back and verify, nor do I plan to. Just for the record, I don’t consider a difference of opinion to be an attack. It just a difference of opinion

I thought I had "got inline" by asking my W how she really felt. I have done this on more that a few occasions prompting the W to say "ENOUGH!". "I have already told you OK"

My W concern was about where I placed her(the W) in the priority list. When I told her that I want to be with her and that I will do all I can to fill her needs and to be the H I should be. That was enough for her to agree to continue contact.

It's been obvious for a long time that Lynn and a few others don't agree with me on the OC issue. Fine, I can live with that. Like them, I am not going to lose any sleep over what other people think or say.

If you want to know how I really feel, then here it is:

MY DAUGHTER, LIKE MY SONS, IS NOT JUST SOME KID IN THE PARK.
It is legitimate and justified that I have real concern for her and want her to be a part of my family JUST LIKE MY SONS. She is NOT an INTRUDER in my home, SHE IS MY FLESH AND BLOOD. She like my sons is a human being and it was beyond her control as to how she came into this Earth. She deserves the same love and affection from her parents as any other child. For me this is not about placing her ahead of my sons, this is about having her considered equal. In the family I grew up in, no one was left behind for social reasons or convenience. I can easily say this without shame or worry about political correctness.

I will do my best to carry the bulk of the shame for the ACTIONS that I DID. That SHAME should not be carried over to her or any other member of my family. If others wish to stick their nose up at me, or any of my family, I will be more than happy to stick my middle finger out to them and tell them where they can “shove it”. I’m working on being the “kinder, and gentler TH” :-)

If Lynn has helped you, that’s GREAT, I’m happy for you, Kudos to Lynn. As far as me, my experience has been MUCH different. I hope you will understand.

The comment about the "minions" was basically a strategy to deal with only one deliberate insulting detractor at a time, and blow off the rest. If all the others were simply going to continue to just throw out insults one after another, then why not just deal with whom I think is the worst? It was not intended for those who were blunt, but sincerely trying to help. It is not difficult to see the difference.

When I saw that Pepper was offended, it made me think that this tread was silly and just an “insult fest”. In addition, it was detracting from the real purpose of this site. We are not here to throw insults and names at each other, at least that is not the reason I originally sought this site, nor is it the reason I still post here and at SB.

I will offer a sincere apology for the “minions” statement to those who honestly felt they were trying to help me; you were not the intended target. Even if Lynn and a few others feel that they fit this category, then it would be extended to them as well.

I know many here have issues about how I went about things. In hind site, I see that I should have done a few things different. However the result so far has been mostly calm and security. That was the intended goal.

I am grateful to God and my W that our family is still together. I love my W and ALL my children.

TH

Mr. TH, point taken.

I really don't think that anyone downs you for your love of your daughter...I don't. My concern is and will be your wife. She too didn't ask for this...and I relate to her feelings more than I relate to your feelings for the OC...that's not a put down, that's just how it affects me. I really think that when you first came on...you were more gung-ho about the OW...and sometimes that is hard to deal with...especially here. I'm routing for you and your W and if she's happy with how things are going...then more power to you.