My husband and I have been married for almost 9 years. We got married young at 18 and waited along time to have children. Our daughter was born in 2004and things went bad from there. We both had a hard time adjusting to being parents and we were always mad at eachother. Anyway, my H is in the military so he was gone the whole next summer and when he returned I got preg again. This time he didn't seem so excited but I knew it would be our last child together so I tried to enjoy it. Things still wren't the best between us but I thought after the birth of our son we would hopefully go back to being happy and enjoy our children. Well, I have recently found out that things were much worse than I thought. He had an affair from the time I ws 3 months preg until right before our son was born. And to top it all off she is preg with their son now. She is almost 6 months along. I never thought he could do something like this to me. We have been over everything and I still haven't yet forgiven him since I haven't known for long. My problem is I'm trying to find out how other people have delt with similar situations. I love him and he says he loves me not her and he wants to be with me and our family but he does want to be a part of his other sons life too. Is it possible for this to work out? I hate that OW and I would like nothing more than to never mention her name again as long as I live but with a child comming I have no choice. I'm on the fence on wether I should stay or leave? I do love him but I think this was more thatn a mistake. I believe she wanted to get pregnant because she even told me herself that she is in love with my H and I think this was her way of getting him. I know we will have to pay child support and stuff but I don't know how to handle the situation and I don't know if I can ever trust him again. Another thing is that they are both in the military so if word gets out about all of this they could both be punished and I don't want him to lose pay or anything plus this is his career and i do depend on him since I am a stay at home mom. Please anyone who is in a similar situation or has gone though this please offer me some advise or share your story with me. I'm trying to see the big picture and it very hard right now. Thank for listening.

confused, welcome to MB. My H had an OC 1.5 years ago. It was devastating and very difficult situation. We are now recovering our marriage and healing. Don't get me wrong the pain of knowing my H had a child with someone else is with me everyday. But you can recover. Before he makes any decision about the child he needs to work on your marriage with you. Forget about OW for now. He should be in total NO CONTACT with her until the child is born and DNA is established. There is always the chance the child is not his.

Go to the top of this forum and read the welcome thread started by sunnydale. Get the book Surviving An Affair by Willard Harley.

Are the two of you in MC? What kind of support do you have?

Hi confused.

My name is Carolyn and my H had an affair which resulted in an OC 4 years ago. I am sorry to have to meet you like this.

I am not going to vote in your poll becuase only you can determine if staying or going is the right thing for you. For me, staying and rebuilding our relationship was the right thing to do, for others it wont be at all.

can you tell us where your H's head is at at the moment. Has he given up the OW or is he still in involved?

There are lots of examples of how this situation plays out in this forum. read back through the archives and you will see the good, the bad and ugly.

but whether you stay or go, you will get through this.

lots of love

Carolyn

Thanks for the support. What he is telling me now is that it's over between him and her. They haven't slept together in over 4 months because he says they haven't been together since before our son ws born. He has however told her that he loves her since because he said he felt bad that she was preg and kept telling him she loved him. He swears that he doesn't love her and that if he is not with me he doesn't want to be with anyone else. However, they do see eachother everyday at work. They are in he military and work together. Alot of people in their shop assume that the baby is his because alot of them know that she is in love with him. It's so hard for me to trust him though and to trust that it is over between them.. How is the relationship with the oc now that it has been a few years since the incident? How long did it take you to trust and to move on?

You are really caught between a rock and a hard place, the first golden rule is No Contact with OW until the baby is born and a DNA test is taken to prove that your H is the father. H must be willing to do whatever to stop all contact, (my changed jobs) but I know with the military is more tough, there is another member who is a military wife hopefully she can help you with that. There must be someone way even with the military to get it changed, at least to different shifts from each other.

Find a way to get the contact with OW stopped, he has no reason what so ever to talk to her, its her problem at the moment. Once the baby is born and DNA test is proven to be his child then their is boundaries to set, to make you feel comfortable. Use these months to fix your marriage, that is the top of the list for right now, fix the marriage and deal with OW/OC after the marriage is fixed.

Really read alot of post, you will find so many great stories and advice, from all types of situation, and you will find comfort knowing that now you are not alone in this.

There is many that cares and always ready to help you thru this.

COL,


The short answer is most likely yes.
The longer answer is much more complicated.

Questions. Is the Other Woman married?

The ladies above all have very good advice and experiance to offer. Your H needs to have NO-CONTACT NOW with the OW.
If your H is willing, have him come here and I will graphically explain it to him if he shows resitance.

I have/am walking in the same shoes as your H.


This is really bad news!

Another good source for information is here:

www.survivingbetrayal.com

The registraion process is a bit of a pain, but you will find good information there as well as here. I encourage you to look at both.

Last but not least, I second the recomdation of reading "Surviving the Affair". It helped me change my thinking.

You are not alone,

TH

Th,
She is not married now. Her husband cheated on her and they just got divorced not to long ago... She has been married 2 times and has 2 other children. My husband already works 2 jobs military and another job after that so we have extra money which I feel now will all be going to her. He does this so I can stay home with our kids. I would ask him to go to the night shift but that is the shift he was on when the cheating occured and I don't quite trust him that much yet. I ask him everyday after work if he saw her or talked to her and all he says he ever says to her is Hi and nothing more. Don't you think he needs to tell OW that he wants to work things out with me and that they are not going to be together? And don't you think he should tell her now before the baby is born that he wants a DNA test even though he is almot positive it is his? Thanks for the replies so far it helps to know I'm not alone...

Very important to have it done, there is one here who I know will come along and post and they was postive that her H was the father, and turned out it wasnt!! Most states, like ours for example has now made it a law that if a child is born out of wedlock that a DNA is a must. Its the law.

You are going to have a very hard time right now gaining your trust in him again, it is very hard to do when no contact is placed, and going to be all most impossiable to do with contact. He can say that it is over all he wants, now it is time for him to prove it. The chances of it rekindling is high.

I can understand about the money and stuff but you two need to find a way to get them away from each other, maybe she can make the changes?? Remember no job no nothing is more important then your marraige at the moment.

He has to figure some way to stop the contact, it is going to be his actions, the way he handles everything that will help you decide if your going to stay in this marriage.

Do you want money or your marriage? Which would cost you less to lose?

I understand the whole money or marriage thing and the thing is that it is not me that wants the money it is him. I have asked him already not to work 2 jobs even before the affair because it takes up his whole day then he doesn't spend enought time with the kids. He is gone when they waake up in the morning and they are asleep at night before he gets home. They only see him a 1/2 hour when he comes home to change inbetween jobs. I tell him I want him to be home to eat dinner with us but he thinks he has to go there to get away from things. He said it is the only place where he doesn't think about what is going on and how much he has messed up. I want him to feel comfort at home and with me not at some job. I wrote him a letter today with a bunch of things I am demanding in order for me to trust him again and stay. He read it and said it was kinda like a contract but I told him I would give him a couple of days to think about what I wrote and see if we agree on all of these things including no secrets, no secret calls, no secret visits nothing to do with her. Also I wrote that he needs to tell her that he wants to be with me and not her and to just let him alone to work on our marriage. We will see what he has to say about it soon I hope.

Sweetie, you set boundaries for your marriage not make demands. The boundaries are for you and if he crosses them then you follow through with whatever consequences you decided would happen.

Can you share with us what you asked for? We can help you through this. {{confused}}

Hey honey. I haven't read anyone else's replies but I totally feel you pain. I too am a military spouse. I had the very same concerns when it came to disclousre as you did. Right now I'm almost three years out from d-day (discovery day. Things are much better but always a work in progres. While many here may give you advise ultimately you have to do what's best for you. This site was a tremdous help when I found it. If you need to chat email me at cali_smile99@yahoo.com I'm praying for you.

I'm so sorry to see that you have need of this group. They are are wonderful bunch. I don't post much but I come back and read from time to time.

I am a military wife, almost 19 years now. I know how hard this life without this additional atess. This is a sticky situation. How much longer will he be in his current shop? He can't really ask for a job transfer without telling why and if he tells why, he risks punishment and that can be harsh, anything from extra duty to losing money and/or rank. He should be firm and tell her he will have no contact, or as little as possible since they work together. and he most certainly should request a paternity test.

I too married at 18. It isn't easy but if you both want it, you can work it out. There will be times when you will want to just chuck it all and quit but just work on it one day at a time. That's what gets me through.

God Bless.

Sorry to t/j but Doxie Luver it warms my heart to know someone else has been in my shoes long before me and kept their marriage. My h's command was really helpful with getting medical set up and evrything. But every command is different. What does dh want to do?

You're so right about every command being different. Some will sweep adultery under the rug while others prosecute to the full extent of the UCMJ. I would hate for them to find out the hard way which way his command leans. My advice is to document everything even if you think you can trust others. It can be as simple as a notebook or purse size calendar. Jot down anything and everything even if you think it's not important. That's why I try to do everything by email, so I have a written record. I also keep a journal in a word document. It helps me to release emotions and stress plus then I have a written record.

COL,


Perhaps LynnG will be willing to discuss the benifits of LEGAL SEPERATION. This is much differnt than DIVORCE. This is a legal tool that can be used to protect your assets and income.

If you have the strenght to pull yourself together, start finding out where the money is and isn't.

Pull a credit report to find hiden credit cards and such things. Look for hidden back accounts too.

Motel and gifts are not free and your H will instictively want to hide these expenses for fear of hurting you.


I am not prepared to call him a lier, but I find this highly unlikely. I speak from experiance.

There needs to be NO-CONATACT now.


THIS IS A MUST, AND IT NEEDS TO HAPPEN NOW!

Better yet, it should be done with a letter and deliverd by someone else! The book "Surviving the Affair" will explain why this is SO IMPORTANT.

I enocurage you to not walk, but run to the bookstore and get a copy. It will help you understand more of the dynamics of what is going on and why the A may have happened.


Yes he should, and it is advice I too should have followed.
This IS something that is going to come up in the near furure for me. Not so much that I have any dought, but because it will give my W more piece of mind. It will also provide more legal standing if I ever have more visitation issues and have to go to court.

He also needs to get an STD test done. The full screen. This can be done at a reasonable cost at Planed Parenthood. This is something I just went through. I should have done is sooner. It's one of the "fence boards" that needs to be NAILED back in place.

This may be way to soon to ask, but the reason I ask is to help direct you to the people here who can help you most in the direction you want to go.

How do you feel about being a stepmom to this child?

Some of the ladies here are insulted by the very thought of having an "intruder" ie.. OC in the house.

Other have fallen in love with these children and fight tooth an nail to have these children in thier lives.

There appears to be sucess stories either way you go, there is also failuers.

It doesn't have to be decided now, but it is something you may want to think about.

Like your H, I wanted contact. I was so determined, that I was willing to leave my W if she didn't compile. That was a mistake on my part. One of many I have done. There were other issues to work on before this. I was afaid I would lose my daughter if I did not move fast. In retrospect, had I listen to the advice I was given and got a lawyer, I would have known that my OW didn't wield as much power as I thought she did.

Given the chance, I would relay this to your H. I completely understand his fear.

I would also like you to start thinking differnt. Reading the books sugested in my opinion is the quickest way to get the skills needed to save your M. Both you and your H need to make an investment of time and get educated on M skills.
I don't proclaim to be an expert, but I have learned from experiance that having these skills has made a BIG differnce in my M. I know they will in yours too!

Some will suggest calling MB itself for MC. It's spendy, but from what I hear, it is well worth it. My W and I stuck to the books.

About "average loccal counselors", I am not so thrilled about them. Your situation is not one many counselors will see. The two "professional" counselor we saw said we wouldn't make it. Last time I looked, we were still M :-)

Stick to Dr H and staff hear at MB, I suspect everyone else is a "second or third stringer".


The one real bright spot I see here is this:

Your H appears to want to stay with you and work it out.
That is a big plus.

He may be operating on the idea of "DUTY" and trying to do "THE RIGHT THING". But I also suspect, he does have love for you and deep down inside wants to work it out. He is just wondering if you two can really be happy together. With the right skills, you two can pull this out.

Now lets see if he is also willing to do what it takes to make it happen.

TH

I keep track of every penny that we have. I am the one who pays the bills and keeps records of our expnses. He doesn't even know how to do it. I believe that any expenses thay needed have come from her. I know that the cell phone he had to communicate with her was in her name and the bill sent to her address. I do know that he did give it back to her so they are not communicating anymore that way. I have thought about being a step parent and I think we can work that out I am just worried that she will not want to let him visit if I am there and I will not allow them to be alone together. I just can't do it. So I guess that would have to be something worked out in court for visitation. I've thought about when the baby is born should we go to the hospital and visit? I think my H will want to but I'm going if he is. I think what is so scary to me right now is that I know he doesn't want to hurt anyone (even though that has been done already) I think it is hard for him to just tell her straight up that he doesn't love her and that he loves me and wants to be with me. He said the other day "She has to know because I just ignore he all the time." I said all she knows is that she loves you and you have told her that you love her, she is probably thinking that you have a chance to be toghter and that maybe you just need room to let me go. He sears that its me that he wants but I'm scared that maybe he just doesn't want to hurt me even more by wanting to be with her. He also said the other night that it's very important to him that I don't think that he left me for her, I think this is important to him because he is worried what people will think of him. (Family, Friends) He knows they will be upset already but he is sure they will think hes even more of an a** if he is actually with her. How do I know that he is truthful about wanting me and about not loving her? I know that he has feelings for her but he says it's not love it's just feelings you have when you have slept with someone.
The thing about their shop is that she has been transfered across the hall because they are welders and you can't do that job when preg. She makes a point to come to their shop everyday to talk to someone and I'm sure she is just doing it to see him. I am going to get the books and try to educate myself and him. I need to get him to tell her its over and believe that he did that but I'm almost positive that he wont write a letter. I will try to get him to but I don't see it happening. We did sign up for orders so I am hoping that sometime soon we will be selected to move somewhere else where she is not always there... Or hopefully never there. I wish she would let us have the child and raise it with her having visitation but she would never allow it. Anyway, I will stop blabbering on for now. Hopefully he will want to talk tonight and we can get some of this straightened out. Oh, another concer of mine is intimacy, we all know how it can be after a few years together you lose that spark and passion. I really want to hae this in our marriage and I think we need to have it I'm just not sure if it is something we can get back. Right now I don't even want to sleep with him... Any suggestions?

Hello Confused,

I am the one that Thunderstorm refers to here. My H and the OW also worked together, that's how the affair started...my H was proven NOT to be the father through DNA...believe me, My H and I were soooo sure this child was his...until the paper work came back...no harm, but a woman sleeping with a MM, can be sleeping with anybody...and so that OW don't get mad, I say the same for my H.

I'm so sorry that you find yourself here...I know how terribly painful this is.

The #1 priority is NC between your H and the OW...he is not her support during the pregnancy, tell her to call a girlfriend or whoever, not your issue. Everything else needs to be handled through the courts, EVERYTHING...I don't care how good they seem to get along, as soon as one party doesn't do what the other wants or expects, there will be issues....Mr. TH can attest to that. Get you and your family in order...I strongly suggest Marriage counseling...you can do professional or religious...whatever you both can agree on, and do this immediately. The pregnancy is the time to work on the marriage, because it sounds as though you will have contact with the OC (the Other Child) and your marriage will require strenghth for this. Also start talking about what will happen once the child is born. Talk about everything...visitation, OW calling the house, or a cell phone, pick-ups, drop-offs....now I'm not saying to talk about these things today...TODAY get into counseling, but be sure to discuss these things prior to the childs birth, it could stop some arguments early.

Always feel welcome to come and ask questions here. These women are remarkable, and they can help you through this.

Bless you and I'll be thinking of you.

He has to go NC with the OW, now! You will survive this either way and you dont have to make any decisions until you are ready. He is in the fog and he will stay in the fog as long as there is any contact, that includes just seeing her and saying hello.

Go through the courts for any visitation and until paternity is established by DNA, work on your marriage.

confusedonlove,
My DH is also military and had an (civilian) affair 8y ago which resulted in a child the same age as one of ours.

I'd be happy to chat with you, but am short on time right now.

Don't make any big decisions right now.

You do know you can get free counseling the military will pay for, right? Hop on it!! Read all you can on marriage recovery after A. This is a wonderful site. You've gotten some good ideas already.

I'll check back another time if you want to reach me.
J

COL,


This is pefectly acceptable for someone in your shoes.
You have legit questions, many are here who can help answer.


You are well within your rights on this postion. I do suspect it may take a while for your H to see this. It did for me.

There are other issues you bring up that I will comment on, but my REAL job seems to think I owe my time to them right now :-)

Start reading the book (Surviving the Affair), more of what I and others say will start to make more sence when you have a context to draw from.

Bottom line is this, you are normal in your thinkng for what has just happened. My gut feel is that you two can pull this out and keep your family together.

TH

I did order the book and can't wait to get it and read it. We live in such a small town there is now book store here I would have to drive at least 40 miles so I ordered it off the sight and I also ordered her needs his needs I think that what its called hopefully these can be starting tools to help my marriage survive. I hope I will get the time in the next couple of days to talk to him and see where his head is at this time. I really wish that he would just come home after work today and say look I talked to her and told her that I love you and the kids and want to work out my marriage. I want him to say that he told her they will work out anything having to do with the child once a DNA test is done. I just know this is something he would never just do on his own. He doesn't realize that it would help me feel more secure that what he is telling me is true that he really does want to be with me. He is still in the mode where he just wants to avoid everything and doesn't want to talk about it but it's there and it's true and it needs to be delt with. Thanks for the comments so far it really does help to hear from all of you. Keep the comments coming. Thanks again.


COL

Good! I would still take a look to make sure. People can surprise you.


Well, people in A can be creative how they communicate. So long as he still works anywhere around her, it’s bad news. I DON’T CARE WHAT HE SAYS. He may not be tempted right now, but give it time and he WILL BE.


Others are going to have to chime in on this one. I don’t have a clue as to what to tell you on this.


This is why a NO-CONTACT letter delivered by someone else can be an effective tool.
The OW is going to “choose not to know” until it is spelled out in a letter!



Well at least he is saying the right things. Whether he feels it yet is to be determined.
My guess would be that he is struggling to figure out how to “do the right thing” and give your M “one more try”. This was most of what kept me at home. I felt like I didn’t give my M a fair chance.



You don’t. At least not yet; but again, he is still at home and claims to want to be with you. It sounds like he is spending too much time out of the house “working”. Whether
he really needs to work this much or not, it has a negative impact on your family right now.


Humm……. Thinking………..

Ya, this is a problem and why NO-CONTACT needs to be established NOW. Sorry COL but he is blowing smoke up your dress. Whether he wants to face it or not, he is going to have to deal with withdrawal. It ‘s feels similar to a junkie getting off the “junk”.

The book will explain this better.


I bet she does, she is in worse shape than he is. She just got divorced and now faces the reality of losing a man she “loves”.


Good!

Let him read the book himself. My wife wanted to read it together but it sunk in more when I read it my self and had chances to ponder what was being said.
It’s easier to do that when your W is not asking about “WHAT ARE YOU THINKING”.

Let him discuss what he is thinking after he has a chance to think about what he has read.


I’m not so quick you can ‘get HIM” to do anything. You can ASK him. If you do it in a RESPECTFUL tone, your odds are MUCH better. Remember, he is thinking, “How can I be happy in this M”.


Some have done it, but it ‘s rare. Most likely, over the long haul, YOU are going to have to deal with OW.


I know I will take some heat for this advice, but I will say it anyway.
I know you want to “connect” with him by having “conversation”.
But I suspect you two have issues understanding what each other needs.
I would avoid the DEEP conversation until you have read the book. You can tell him all you want about how you need him to do this and that, but at this point I am not sure if it will do any good.

He needs to feel that home is a ‘safe” place to be. This will surprise him and also make him see you in a different light. He knows he messed up, but if all of a sudden you spend some QUIET time with him, even something simple like watching TV without talking but cuddled up to him. It will register to him that you are a Loving Wife . ( I am referring to recreational time). I would urge you to avoid conversation about OW, OC, or anything that gets you both tense or worked up. I am not saying do this forever, but before you start laying out what you need, you need to understand what is going on.

For now just keep it to” I hope you did not talk to OW today, it is vital to our M” and leave it at that. You could throw in “when your ready to tell me your thoughts”, I am here to listen. If he does talk, then conversation is fair game. Do your best not to condemn him.

I know this may not seem fair; you have been drug through the mud. But trust me when I say this, it will help get your H thinking that YOU are a WONDRFULL W. That he CAN BE HAPPY WITH YOU. His turn will come when you gain skills and some of the FOG has lifted.



The book will do a much better job of explaining “how the spark was lost” than I could ever hope to.


The good news is you can! The two of you are just lacking the skills.
He also needs to know how important it is to start NO-CONTACT now.


The short answer is to FAKE IT!

Your H feels most loved by you when are physical with him. To him this will register as LOVE. He does not register Love in the same way you do. Affection and loving words do not cut it. Their nice, but not equated to love like they are for you. MOST men feel this way.

An old saying I heard a few times over was this:

If a man wants access to a woman’s body, he must touch her soul.
If a woman wants access to man soul, she must touch his body.

To most men SEX equal ACCEPTANCE and LOVE. Often he will think, if she is willing to have sex with me “SHE MUST THINK I AM OK” that “I AM LOVABLE”.

When he feels LOVED in this way, you are much more likely to get access to his heart. I suspect that is what you really want. I am also pretty sure that is what he REALLY wants too!

I know considering what has happened, this may be the last thing you want to do. However, you are your H’s only ethical means of sexual gratification. Trust when I say, it is always on his mind. You don’t want him to have this NEED when he is around the OW. He will be MUCH less vulnerable to her charms if this NEED is taken care of by you. HE WILL FEEL LOVED BY YOU and have no NEED for her.

When he trusts you to fill this emotional need, his dependence on OW will go down dramatically.

TH

Hey TH--

Sorry for the threadjacking but I wanted to say thanks for what you said to COL--it struck a cord with me too and I'm going to use it.

COL--I don't post often but I've been following your thread. I'm thinking and praying for you. ((((hugs))))

HU2006

Thanks for the advise. I hope that he will want to read the book as well. He is not the book reading type but hopefully he will be willing to do it to save our marriage. I can't wait to get it. I also hope that he will be willing to write a letter. I just can't stop thinking that he is still playing both of us. I just think that he really doesn't want to hurt anyone more than what is done but he doesn't see that it hurts me to think they still have something going on. I know that they haven't been sleeping together because I know where he is all the time now but that's just not the couple that we are. I have always trusted him with everything. He has even told me of other times that he was deployed that girls have tried to sleep with him and he didn't. One girl even went so far as to get in bed with him and he told her to get out. Why did he have to ruin the trust that we had. I ever wanted to spy or know where he was all the time and now my life is consumed with that kind of stuff. It sucks.. Ok, the other day he went to get dinner and some movies. While he was gone I checked our cell phone account to see how many minutes he had used. When he came back I checked again and he had used quite a few minutes. I asked him who he talked to and he said noone the only people he ever talks to is me or one of his friends mike. So I wrote to sprint to ask for the numbers that had been called and there was 7 or 8 calls to her number. They were mostly 1 minute but there was one that was 4 minutes and one that was 13 minutes. So I confronted him and said why did you lie I know that you called her. He said he was just calling her to make sure everything was ok and she never answered. ( She had gone into preterm labor at 23 weeks) So I asked why the 4 minute and 13 minute call he said he didn't talk to her and maybe the phone had dialed in his pocket by accident because the phone does do that but it would have dialed the last number called which would have been me. I just don't see what he is still trying to hide. I just don't believe that he didn't talk to her and why won't he just admit it? I rally hope we can make it through this I just feel like I am starting to love him less and less. Sometimes I think I might be so much happier to just start over and find someone who does love me and can be the husband I deserve... But on the same hand I do love him we have 2 beautiful children and such a long history together and that makes me want to work it out.. I just hope he is willing to make some sacrifices as well beacuse I will not and cannot do this alone.. We are going on a date tomorrow night so hopefully it will give us some time to just enjoy eachothers company. I am not going to talk ablout the situation at all. I do however want us to talk tonight because it has been a couple of days since I have asked him to consider the things that are important to me now and I really want to talk about it. Also I want him to tell me about the phone calls. Hopefully we won't fight. I am trying but is he? Thanks again to everyone for posting It does help so much to know that ther are some people who care and have been here too... And to TH it really helps me a ton to see your point of view. Thanks..

confused, he is still in the affair and he is still in the mindset of a WS. He will continue to be until total NC is established.

COL,

He did not have to. He was looking for Emotional Needs to be meet and found it easier with OW than with you. This does not mean that you did not love him and were not willing to do anything for him. I suspect you don’t even know WHAT HE WAS LOOKING FOR or why. I futher suspect that he is not sure of what his emotional needs were/are either, only that OW was able to "provide".

You not alone, many things I didn’t realize that my W needed from me either, but she had the good sense not to get an OM involved.

The book will explain this in more detail.


He thinks by lying, he can spare you pain. It does not work, but I’m pretty sure that is what he is thinking.


Yes you deserved better than to get treated like this. There are lessons to be learned from this whether you stay with this H or find another. Learning good M skill is essential in any relationship you may end up in. We don’t want the past to repeat itself now do we?


He has his fair share of reading and learning to do as well. You are right, you can not do this alone forever. But I will encourage you to be the “Hero” for now and carry the load.
It’s not fair, but clearly, your H has his head up his A$$. Sometimes it takes a while for it to be removed. Some ladies here still think mine is still their. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />



OK, if your going to go down this path, here is an idea or two:

Hit hard on the idea that he needs to RESPECT you enough to tell you the truth.
He will get that loud and clear. That he has DUTY to be honest.

Let him know that even what he has to say will hurt you, that you will RESPECT him MORE than if he tells the truth. You need to know how deep the rabbit hole is.

Let him know how you RESPECT him for all the hard work he does for the family, and that it is APPECIATED far more than you can express. That your FAMILY NEEDS YOU.

Let him know that you want the MAN you married and HIGHLY RESPECTED back and being %100 honest is the ONLY way for him to come back.

Don’t bother much to tell him how much you LOVE him, drive home the fact that YOU RESPECT him, at least for who he has been and what he has meant in your life. Find something you do RESPECT him for and tell him.

Telling him you RESPECT what he does for your family is like being told how beautiful you are after you have spent hours “getting yourself made up”. May be to simple of an example, but it’s the best I have so far <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

This advice I co-opted from the book called “Love and Respect”. Read the others first and if you do happen to have some Christian based religion in you, you may find you like this book too. Even if you don’t, put it on your list to read anyway.

I fear Faith Follower maybe right. All is not lost, just your H is entangled in a mess that I am sure he is struggling with. If he at least says he wants to be with you, do what you can to encourage it. When he feels safe with you, he will spill all of his “beans” and get closer to you.

I hope that when your H reads the book, that he will begin to see how he can provide for your Emotional Needs as well. This will boost his confidence that you two can be happy together. It will give him something to DO to FIX this mess!

TH

I'm so upset now. I just don't think I can take anymore.... Last night OW called and I noticed this morning that there was a missed call so I told my H that she called and I had and appointment this morning so I went to my appt. On the way home he called me and was just asking how things went so I asked did you call her and he just sits there in silence. Then he says that he did call her that she went into lablr again and she is on bed rest. Nice, I'm so glad he wait until I'm gone to call her and he doesn't even understand why I'm upset aboutit. He just doesn;t realize what the big deal about NC is right now. I feel that if she needs him and he is so concerned about her then he shouldjust go be with the stupid b*tch slu*. I don't know how to make him realize why its important to stay away from her and why can't he call he in fromt of me. I just feel like my whole world is falling apart and I don't know what to do anymore. I can't keep living like this......I'm very upset right now so sorry for ranting....

COL,

I wish there was something I could say that would make you feel better, but I am afaird thier is not. I too had lunch and discussed OC issues with the OW when I should have not.

It simply draged out the withdrawl process for me and completey aggervated my W. It was yet another mistake I had made to show my W I was serious to keep us together.


Sad to say, but untill he reads a book or two, or talks to someone who has been in his shoes, he probley won't.
He is blinded right now. This will take time for him to get out of the FOG.

It might help if he were to come on this website and did some reading. Then he just might get a clue that your reactions are not "out of wack".

If you wish to send me an email at troubledh1969@yahoo.com
I would be happy to pass my cell number to you to give to your H. I would then explain to him why no contact is so essential.

I suspect he also needs someone he can confide in who has first hand experiance.

As a last ditch effort (but spendy), you could call the MB staff.

Your H is in the FOG, all is not lost, it will just be more difficult than I first suspected.



A sorry is not needed. The point of this site is to support you and your M. That support will also extend to your H if he so chooses to show up here.

I would also encourage you to visit this site for more information that could help you:

www.survivingbetrayal.com

TH

You need to search within yourself, and start thinking about drawing the line in the sand.

The reason you need to really search yourself about that is play out every way that it could end. And to be prepared that if he crosses the line that you will have stand firm in your decision. Cause if you dont then he will continue to cross over knowing that you will give in.

If your ready

sit him down, make eye contact the entire time, talk in a calm but firm voice, so he knows you mean business.

That under no circumstances should he contact OW again. And he needs to send her a NC letter. That until the DNA test come back to prove he is the father then she is not your guys concern. It was her decsion to sleep with a married man, so now she will have to go thru the pregnacy alone. Many OW use all kind of tactics (probs with pregnacy) to try and keep contact with the MM, but you wont fall for it.

That he must choose between OW and you, and if he chooses you then you will be firm on the NC, that you wont give him another chance if he breaks that promise. Because you will not allow him or OW to disrespect you or your marriage any longer with this game. You and your marriage deserve both of your complete attention to fix it, that your marriage must come first. That you are willing to overlook the worst pain possiable to forgive him, but only if he is wanting to work as hard at it as you.

Ground rules will come to play alot in the future, if you choose C with OC there will be alot, and H should understand them all because making you feel as comfortable with the whole deal is number one.

But those you dont need to worry about now, for now the imporant thing is getting this marriage back on track.

A good way to get him to thinking is ask him how he would feel if it was you that had the A and still contacted your lover.....

COL, if you can afford it call the Harleys for a couple counseling sessions.

I can't afford the fees. Oh well, I'm feeling more discouraged now then ever. I can't seem to get through to my husband. He still hasn't told the OW that he doesn't love her and that he doesn't want to be with her. It's like he's putting it off. I just think I am starting to love him less and less everyday. I don't even know if he would ever make me happy again. I really am just considering leaving. He will know he made the wrong choice. He is choosing to work and nothing else now and it does not help our relationship. I have asked him to only work his second job 3 nights a week so he has more time with his family and now he is at work even on the weekend. I just can't take it. He seems like his job is more important than his family. Good I hope he is rich and miserable ne day and he will realize what he let go. I got the book Surviving an affair and I really like it but he wont even read it so what's the use. I told my parents this week what's going on so I ahave alot of support and I just might have to step out into the big bad world by myseld and build the best life I can give my children. They are the ones that matter the most and I just want them to never feel pain like I have felt the last couple of months. It's starting to feel good to say that I want to leave and that I don't really love him anymore. It's even a little exciting to think of starting over. Maybe this time I can do things differently and have the best life possible. I hope so. Well, that's just how I am feeling right now. I know I deserve better and I know I can get through this no matter what.. Thanks again for all of the advise... I'll keep you all posted......

Have you read about Plan A and Plan B at this site? It sounds like you might be ready for Plan B, which is not necessarily divorce, but a distance that helps protect you from further pain.

I was fortunate my DH was willing to work hard on the marriage after Dday, but I've seen other marriages helped by Plan A/B.

Have you found a counselor yet? Go just for you, while it's covered by insurance!

J

At this point it is more for you to help you understand what happened and possibly why.


I might be tempted to “visit” him while he is working. Perhaps take him lunch or offer to eat out. I would want to see that he really is at work.

He could also be stressed about the Child Support that your family is going to have to pay. There is a strong drive in a lot of men to “provide”. Often this drive is so strong, that we tend to put everything else on the “back burner”.

You may want to ask in the softest (non threatening) tone you can if this is an issue. It may take him a while to see that getting you more money is NOT the most important issue for him to deal with at the moment.

Last but not least, you have every right in the world to divorce your H for what he has done. I, and many others would not blame you if you choose that option. Most of us do not want see your family broken. I would encourage you to continue reading and learning. If nothing else, it will help you prepare for your next relationship.

My offer to speak to your H still stands; just send me an email for me to send my cell number. If your H needs help getting his head out of his A$$ (the FOG), I would be happy to be there for him.

TH

I understand that he is probably stressed about providing for another child but I know the real reason he likes to go to his second job is just to get away from everything. He told me that he is stressed at work (military) I'm sure because she is there and she makes a point to go into his shop everyday ( I'm sure so she feels better about knowing that he knows she is there) also it gets stressful for him at home because we always tend to get into an argument. I have really been trying so hard to not fight and not to make comments that will offend him. I feel like if I am willing to let things go the least he can do is tell her that he doesn't love her and that he doesn't want to be with her. He said he won't tell her that until it's the right time. He thinks that he will just run into her in the hall or something at work and feel like it's the right time to tell her it's over. I asked him to write her a letter and he said nothing. I am going to try to get him to call her in front of me and tell her that he wants NC until after baby is born and DNA test is done. I hope he will do this for me. He thinks that she just assumes that it's over because he ignors her and doesn't call her anymore but I told him that all she knows is the last thing you told her was you love her and she probably thinks you are waiting for me to leave so you guys could be together. I will tell him that you are willing to talk to him even if he just wants to email. Maybe he will feel like he can actually talk to someone who is in the same shoes and won't judge. Oh and by the way I have drove past his work a few times and he is always there when he says he is, so far... I just hate doing that I just wish I could trust him. I think I used to be the most trusting wife around. If he wanted to go to the strip clubs with his buddies when they were TDY I wouldn't mind as long as he came home to me. We used to joke about women getting in his bed when he was deployed and him telling them to get out. Now I don't find any humor in any of that and I want to know where he is all the time. I am really trying to let some of this go it's just still so hard. I pray that we can make it through this. I do love him and I love our family and I'm sure I can love this new baby as well, the thing I don't love it that she will be in our lives forever and I hope that's not too much for me. I pray he has learned his lesson and that he will never hurt me again. I do EVERYTHING for him and I just want him to appreciate me. Anyway, thanks so much for all of your help. Hopefully I can at least get him to write you an email, maybe that will help him realize how important everything is now and how important NC is. Well, have a great day....

Hi COF,

You seem to be in better sprits. Not roses by any means, but better. I and many other are happy that you want your family to stay together. Your H will see the error of his current actions. The question is: will it be sooner, or later. I hope it is sooner!


Ya, this really is not going to fly. If he is commited to staying with you, then the kindest thing he could do is be "cruel" and get it overwith with a NC letter.

He will be hesitant about DNA at first. He will think that will insult the OW. What he is not getting is that it is not for HIS benifit, but for your piece of mind. I was pretty "thick headed" about this as well.

He may think he has all the reason in the world to trust OW, but when he figures out that you have NO reason to trust her, then he will soften his position on DNA.


You are far ahead of the process at your stage than many.

As far as the OW being in your life. This can be minimized to close to nothing so long as OW is not some sort of wacko.
The child with simply have two families. If both are loving homes, I don't see a problem.

There is NO reason your H should ever talk to OW in private FOR ANY REASON. Any issues with the OC should be handled by you. If OW does not like it, then Tough SH(rymes with IT).
When she decided to have sex with your H, she took the chance that you would become her childs stepmom.


I guess the moon and stars have to be lined up in the right position too! ;-)

I know he will think differnt, The Lord knows I did, but he owes her nothing. There is no nice way of saying "Sorry honey, I loved you, but I am staying with my family". OW is going to hurt and get PO'd anyway that it gets said. No need for her to hang around and have any hope. It's truley is more kind for him deal her the "death blow" and get it over with.

I think you need to start figuring out where YOUR boundries are. This crap has a way of dragging out for a while if you don't. Declair where you are at. Be prepard to do what you say your going to do.

Here are a few suggestions:

NO CONTACT. If you must, requier him to place his hand on a BIBLE and swear to tell the truth. I lied my a$$ off a few times, but I would have never crossed that line. I hope your H has enough sence not to either.

He needs to start his withdrawl process. He will hurt terrable and say things he will later regreat. You just need to know why he is saying them. Think about your PLAN A action if he complies with your requests.

He need to read! 1/2 to one chapter a night is not too much to ask when your family is at stake. Be prepard to ask him about concepts in the book. Don't be so quick to drill him about it's meaning untill he has a chance to process what he has read, you just need to know that he IS READING.

Time, He has to cut back! Be prepard to show him how all the bills can be taken care of without him having to put in so many hours at work. Logic needs to rule the day here.

Then outline for him what you think his DUTIES are to the family. Make sure there is also time allocated so that he has some QUIET TIME. Time that is his at home "guilt free".
Think about the time he needs, then double it and add half ;-)

Your family is in my prayers,

TH


troubledh1969@yahoo.com
www.survivingbetrayal.com

TH, awesome posts. Thanks for reaching out to COL.

Ok time to vent already again.... No the deal is that he went to work last night and on the way home decided to go over to her house. I knew he went there and I asked him about it and he said he only went there to tell her that it was over and that he didn't want to be with her but he said he never even got out of his car. He says he just sat there contemplating for 30 minutes then decided to come home. I wish he was telling me the truth but the truth is I just don't believe him anymore. Why could he just tell me that he wanted to go over there and talk to her and end it why would he need to be so secretive.. He would have never told me about if if I didn't know for a fact that he was there... Why if he wants to be with her wouldn't he just be with her and let me go./... Why keep me hoping that things will get better but try living a double life? I just don't understand.. He told me that he hasnt been over there or even talked to her in months and the one night I'm checking on him he does... What a coinsidence... He told me after I confronted him that he can't even stand to talk to her that she annoys him. He hates even seeing her at work or hearing her laugh at work he says it really bothers him but then why would he still go over there... I know he won't go now because he knows I can find out if he has but that's not the point. I'm not this type of person who is paranoyed and wants to spy. I hate that I can't trust him.. I want to but he has given me no reason to. I wanted to talk to him tonight but of course he had to go to work... I'm so tired of not being appreciated and not feeling loved. I'm still young enough to start over and be treated right. I just don't know why it is so damn hard to let go. I want to just let go so bad and be done with all this crap. He made a choice for both of us when he slept with that homewrecker so why can't I just give him what he obviously wanted... I need to find my strength now. I just pray I can do it. I need to be done threatening to leave and just do it so he knows I will. He thinks righ now that I won't leave and it's true. I need to figure out how to just do it and be done oncew and for all. He must think I'm really dumb but I'm done being dumb. It's time to stick up for myself and my children. He has started a new family hopefully they can be happier then we were. Sorry if I have bummed anyone out but I just can't keep feeling worthless and sad all the time and that is all he does for me anymore. I pray I don't make the same mistakes in my next relationship. Thanks for listening....

Hi COL,

Your H is acting like the stupid donkey that is hungery and sitting between two bails of hay and can't figuer out which to eat from, so he nibbles from both.

If memory serves me correctly, this is in the book your reading. I can tell you from experieance that the above statement, fits pretty good.

I think we have to come back to how far are you willing to go to try and turn this around. I want to stress however, that your willingness to try is a choice and in my mind not any kind of moral obligation. If your done, then your done.

Your H at this moment is no better that a junkie. He is ADDICTED to seeing and caring for the OW. I will tell you, he is not thinking straight. One day he will, again, I hope it is sooner than later.

I know it may be hard to see this, but in my junkie additced days. I always felt I was doing a tight rope act keeping everything togther. One day the OW would be mad at me, the next my W would be mad. I could not stand the thought of losing either of them.

When push finally came to shove and the W was done, I quickly figured out what would hurt worse. For me, losing my family was not acceptable.

If your H is still wanting to come home everynight, then I suspect he is feeling the same way. His thinking is just so screwed up at the moment. He is clearly in the "FOG" as it is known here.


No need to say sorry to us. It's all about choice if you wish continue to try. People here can share thier stratagies that they used and that worked for them to turn there M around. Again it is a choice, not a moral obligation at this point.

Yes, others and I would love to see a happy endding to your situation, but no is wanting to see you get detroyed any more than what has already happened.

I would encourage you to search and listen to the experiance of:

Dealen-De aka Kimmy
Pepperband
Faithfull Follower
Eibrab
And many others.

I can only tell you what I was thinking and how I was affected by the potential loss of my family as a wayward.
These ladies can tell you more of what to expect from your side of things. What they did to restore themself's first, then thier M.


Because you love him.

TH

Will he never admit to me that he is still seeing her or will he continue to lie until I catch him? That's what I don't understand. If he would just admit to me that he still has feelings for her and still sees her at least I would know the truth and try to help him see clearly.. He said to me last night that if it takes me moving out and to another state to prove that he doesn't want her or to be with her then I will find out if that's what I decide to do. In other words he thinks if I leave I will see he is not with her and doesn't want her then I will come back. What he doesn't realize is that if I leave I'm gone. I will not move our children back and forth. If I leave I'm moving on with my life as a single mother and I will find someone who loves me one day. I just can't leave and come back. I don't want to... Anyway, he is not working his other job tomight so maybe he will want to talk about things a little more but I'm not bringing it up. He needs to want to talk to me and if he doesn't then fine, I guess I'm not worth it to him.. Thanks for always having something to say to me TroubledH... I do really appreciate that there is someone there listening.....

Take Care

Honey, my H lied, lied and lied some more so he could stay home with me but still see her and later OC. He knew for quite a while where he WANTED to be but his addiction and the persistance from the OW were quite the draw. You are getting some great stuff from TH and a perspective into your H's head which we all want at times. So, do you want to continue fighting for your marriage?

He thinks he is protecting you by hiding this nonsence.
That, and deep down inside, he is ashamed.


Tell him thier is a much more effective way to show that he doesn't want her. It's called a NO CONTACT letter! It's COLD TURKEY BABY! Thats it, that what it takes to start the repair of the M.

The sole reason he wants to say "goodbye" in person is to "soften the blow". He also wants a PLAN B if you don't work out or are not willing to accept him. Reasure him that with FULL commitment to the M, that this "RISK" will be rewarded.


Humm, not sure if I buy into this one. From your Female perspective I can see why you might feel this way, but not so quick to think that your H's silence equal "I don't care". I'm pretty sure that in his mind, the fact that he is at home should "Show you that he cares and wants to be with you".

TH

Please, take TH's earlier advice and protect your finances. File for a legal separation and file for CS for your children. You could end up on the MAJOR short end of the stick if you wait until after the OC is born and she files. Since money is tight, you really should consider doing this. It is not a divorce, it doesn't have to "change" your M. It is a strategic move to protect money that should be going to your children.

COL,

This would be a show of strenght as well. You want him to see you as strong. That you can make it without him.

If he challeges this. Tell him, that you love him and RESPECT him, but you also know his head is up his butt! That you too have a DUTY to protect your family. Then give him a big hugg. :-)

TH

So if I waited to leave until after the OC is born and she files for CS first she will end up getting alot more? How does that work? I looked up some info online and I read that certian states don't do legal seperation and our state is one of them... So I wrote to a lawyer today to see if I could either get some advise or get an appointment for advise.. He says he would give me more thatn enough money if I leave but if he is bitter who knows if he would... Damn I hate this. He is of course ignoring me tonight so what's new... Anyway, thanks for all of the advise.

He wont have a choice if you file, and if he may have the good intent on doing so but if she files first he might not have enough to give you what he wants

Yes they go by who files first who gets the most, if she files first she gets the most, unfair I know but you will be alot better off filing first and her getting the short end of the stick.

I was shocked you found that your state dont allow legal seperation, but I think I know what you mean now states call them different, yours could be just seperation, or seperation maintence.

I can tell you from my sisters experience right now in pennsylvania there is no such thing as a leagal seperation, you either file for divorce or not. I think if you can prove you are maintaing two seperate homes you may be able to file for cs though.

Ok, so what if I filed for seperation or divorce and later we reconciled whould she still get the same amount or would she get more if we were back together? I'm even more confused now.. I did contact a lawyer and I am going to try to go talk to him on Monday. What is kinda scary now is that I told my H about this legal seperation stuff and he said it might look better if we were seperated or even divorced in the since that he wouldn't geet in as much trouble from the military if he can say we are legally seperated or divorced. He is now thinking that he would hate to see me get cheated out if I do decide to leave later. He says he would rather have me taken better care of so he thinks maybe we should even get divorced but still stay here together until after things settle down then get remarried... I'm so comfused. I PRAY this baby is not his. If it is I will take as good of care of it as I would my own ( I know it's not the babys fault) but I would hate to see her benefit more then I would if I leave later. It's not about me getting more money, it's just that I don't want ther to have more money.. If we have joint custody that baby will be spoiled by us when he is here. We would buy him whatever he needs just like we do our own kids. If she can't afford it then I wish ther was a way for us to get custody... I know she wold never agree to that... Anyway, now I am rambling on. Can anyone tell me through experience what is the best step financially to take. How do I protect myself? I will ley you all know what the lawyer says later... Have a nice day....

COL,

You ask some good questions. It is time to talk with a lawyer. It seems to me that laws vary considerable from state to state.

Get signed up for a legal protection plan. It will save you money in the long haul.

I would take your H with you. When the W and I went to the lawyer, it had a pretty powerfull effect on me. I thought "what the 'blank' have I done". It was sobering.

Plan for the worst, hope for the best!

Is sounds like your H is still at home? Have you read about the Plan A/B like Jenny sugested?

TH

Ok I saw the lawyer today. He said in the long run it won't make too much of a difference in the amounts of money we each get for child support. We talked about how she actually has to file for support before it can start being paid and stuff, then I thought about how she told me she never filed for support for her other kids and I am hoping she will be able to come to a legal written agreement between her and my H if it really is his child.. I'm just so tired of all of this. I came home and told him I am going to stand by him no matter what happens. If he get punished at work then so be it. We will work together to rebuild our lives. No more games.. I told him I want to be involved in every aspect of the OC's life if that is what he wants but he is to have no contact with her until after DNA test and he iss not to talk alone or be alone with her even after OC is born. He agrees. I hope this works. I just want to try to start putting some of this behind us now. I do love him and I know he loves me so we will give it our best shot... Thanks for all of your advise. I hope my plan works....

COL,

I am happy to see that you two have come to some agreeable terms.

BUT........

As a former President Reagan used to say:

"Trust, but Verify!" I would not be obsessive about it, but anything that "just doesnt sound right" should be checked out. More likely than not, your instint will be correct.
After about 3 months of solid No-Contact, I would think that most of the FOG should have lifted.

TH

There is no solid NC because they still see eachother at work. She makes a point every day to go into his shop and talk to her girlfriend. I know she only does this so she can see my H.. There is nothing I can do about that. Inside I feel like he might still be seeing her but I don't know for sure and I have no way to really find out. I would definately like to go by his work late when he is supposed to be getting off but I can be dragging my children out at night like a crazy woman. I do feel like last week when I found out he went to her house and he said he was there, parked outside but never went in, that he probably did go in and he probably did see her but how would I know? He would NEVER admit it... I am praying that we get orders to get out of this town but even then I hope I can trust him one day. I took my son out to get his shots today and on the way home from base I started to cry thinking of what a long drive it was back to town and he had all that time to think about what he was doing every night when he was going to her house. He had that long drive to think and realize what he was doing. It really breaks my heart. I have never felt pain like this in my life. I do hope he is being truthful to me because I have given him plenty of chances to go be with her and he insists that's not what he wants..I'm not sure he is good enough for me anymore and I hope I can feel differently later but for now I guess I will try to keep my sanity and keep my family together. I hope he will not hurt me again... I really wish I had a way to get him to tell me the truth if he is still seeing her.. Anyway, I will be going for now. Until Next time.........

COL,

I was never in the military so this is why I am asking:

How much trouble would your H get in if things were exposed?

Are we talking prison, reduction in rank or ???????

I hate to be there bearer of bad news, but if he has ANY contact with OW, he is not to be trusted. The temptation/guilt at this stage I feel would be OVERWELMING.

I admire you for trying to keep your family together.

Did you have any luck with the Love/Respect notes?

TH

No prison but it could affect his promotion ability. What gets me is that she stated that his shop personnel know the OW is pregnant with his baby??? What is his chain of command doing?? I don't know which branch his is in but if she went to his Commander or First SGT they would separate the two and order them to have no contact. Then if they did contact they would be brought up on charges of Failure to obey a direct order. This is a double edged sword because she is entitled to half his retirement and if he gets kicked out she gets nothing.

Ok, he is in the Air Force and they are trying to get rid of a lot of people right now so there is no telling what they will do. The OW has been in trouble for this before and she had loss of pay, suspended rank reduction and extra duty but now things might be different since they are looking for excuses to get rid of people. If he gets rank reduction he will not have a chance to make rank in time to stay in. He has been in for almost ten years and is an E-5 so if they make him an E-4 he will have to get out when he reaches his 10 year mark. He is a very well liked and respected person though and I think alot of people would stick up for him in order for him not to get kicked out. It would really depend on his commander it will all be up to him. She however I would hope wouldn't get another chance since she has already been in trouble for cheating on her H when she was married. People in his shop don't know that it is his baby yet but he said that he thinks alot of them assume it is his... I know she has a couple friends that know so there is no telling how many people actually know for sure... I wish there was some way for me to have them seperated without getting him in trouble... I can't believe I feel that way especially since I realize its his mistake and he needs to accept his punishment.. Well, I don't know... Maybe I will be moving on to plan B soon... I'll keep you posted..