I have been reading a lot of posts here. Even though the 1: can be cruel the WW seems to be more ruthless or evil. Whatever word you want to describe them. Now I am not talking about 611 but active 11. Take the 11 I know her actions were deplorable. She caused her husband the most amount of pain possible and she keeps on inflicting pain to this day. I have to wonder what happens to woman when she cheats. 1hy are they more ruthless than men?

I believe that all cheaters are selfish, ruthless, deceitful, and devoid of rational thought. I know I was. And none of my real friends or family approved of what I did. However, when all was said and done, they supported DH and I in our recovery, and I am grateful to say that none of them bears ill will toward me now or is obsessed with my actions. I am truly and undeservedly blessed.

tiaga, that is a hard question to answer and maybe I need to think about it more. It does seem like the female waywards are much entitlement minded and tend to be more cruel and flagrant with their abuse. Men also tend to put up with alot more abuse than any woman ever would.

Lurioos,

I am so happy that you were able to recover your marriage.

Melody I think you hit the nail on the head WW seem to have more entitlement issues than the WH. I read some of the posts here and I am shocked that some BH's don't "take the bull by the horns" and stand up for their family all in the name of not wanting to upset the WW who is completely destroying the family.

I have read stories about false DV accusations, trying to take the kids away, etc. From what I have read here WH's seem less prone to that.

I've been here a couple years and I'd say it goes both ways, there are extremes on both sides.

Pariah's ex, Chai's ex...

HH's WH...hmm, that reminds me, Holy hasn't updated in a while!

I can comment as an FWW. I never felt "entitled" to have an A. I don't even know what that means. From my perspective I think that WWs throw themselves completely into the A where a WH probably doesn't. I think WHs compartmentalise the A. They are more likely to cake eat wheres a WW is looking to end their M or and be with the OM or they tell themselves it is love. I think WHs aren't looking to end their M, they can deal with having both women and when push comes to shove they prefer the status quo.

My H stood up for our M. He told me he was a man and I was his woman and no one else was ever going to get in the way of that. If he'd behaved like some men I see here, frightened of their women, we would never have recovered. My H told me that he would divorce me in a flash and never look back if another A occurred.

I think WWs are more ruthless because they invest more emotionally in an A.

As a FWW aI totally get the "entitled mentality" and I now know that it felt relief to cause some pain back to him. Complete and utter entitlement fuelled my A. But I was also so depsertae for an escape and a way out of the M (but obvioulsy not that desperate cos with the physical abuse I did have an easy escape) And on reflection I think I enjoyed inflicitng pain, although I was never sure that I was inflicting pain - cos as you guys sort of said - blokes seem a lot more tolerant/turn a blind eye.

Both of us were very abusive - we are now both a lot less abusive - me with the A and emotionally and him physically and emotionally.

I'm not sure what as in my head but firstly I didn't like my H and secondly I wanted to have the things that I thought I was entitled to. My H could provide the money and sex and the OM conversation, admiration and affection. I was a cake eater.

Thats exactly the attitude I mean. They feel like they were entitled to have an affair. Thanks for being honest.

hmmmmmm....I'm not sure I agree. I know a lot of WH who were just as cruel as any WW. My own H, TST, and Flick did A LOT of cruel things to their BW's. I was horrified at some of the things H did during his affair, and just as horrified when I read about SMB'S and Lil's trials. Waywards are just awful, awful, AWFUL. And as far as ruthless, I'm thinking your more or less referring to the kids. Maybe when it comes to them, possibly.

And as far as entitlement, well, I remember very clearly a conversation right after Dday, where H told me that he thought the A was something he could do for himself. That he deserved this...... . And he kept on doing this for 5 more months....so I KNOW he was feeling pretty darn entitled. He'll tell you himself this today.

The fact of the matter remains all affairs are cruel, whether the adulterer is the H or W. They become selfish, cruel, and entitled, doing ANYTHING that keeps their addiction going.

Quite possibly, we tend to think WW are worse because as women ourselves we can't understand the mindset of the WW. I bet the men think the same when they read about WH's.

Not

IMHO, I think H's and W's have A's for totally different reasons. Men want sex and women want to feel needed, wanted and loved. I have to agree with Kiwi, women are much more emotionally invested in affairs. Where men can go, have sex, and be done. Of course, there is the exception to every rule.

I don't think it's gender thing. IMO ruthlessness is most obvious when the WS seems to have the attitide that they will do whatever they want and use any tool at their disposal to get what they want, don't feel bad about that and expect the world will adjust around them.

Certainly a large part of that comes from the personality of the individual. I think both women and men can have these types of personalities.

However, I do think this ruthlessnes can also be affected by the "process" in which the A came about. At least in my observation, WS's whose process is they decide the M is over, then have an A seem to be more ruthless than those that start an A and then as the A progresses decide to end the M. With the former, any internal conflict they may have had about the ending of their M has been resolved and is no longer evident post d-day. The lack of internal conflict about choices that hurt people is what appears, or is, ruthless. With the later, the internal conflict is still evident which tends to mitigate the appearence of ruthlessness.

Given that, I will say the WW's seem to more often be the type where they decide the M is over then committ adultery, so perhaps that influences things.

But overall, I'd guess it has more to do with the individual's personality more than anything else.

That is sort of rare though. We don't usually see that attitude with the wayward husbands as a rule. It is more common with the wives.

The other difference is that wayward wives routinely try to eject the BH from his home and take his children from him. So, the cruelty goes to a higher level more often, I think.

Actually, I think this is sort of a foolish argument [which is worse, rape or assault? ] and the only reason I am even still commenting is because I so love to debate with not2fun and because I am a little crazy.. .

I remember the summer I found out about WH A...He said "This summer is the summer of (his name)" and I remember saying "I thought that was last summer" and he said "Yeah now this summer is too".

The two summers he was in A...

With my 1st EA I didn't want to end the M, but my 2nd Ea I did want to end the M.

This is a very hard thread to comment, because I wouldn't know which would be more ruthless then the other.

Why, if they want to end the M, do they not tell the poor BS? So they stay M until the affair is dicovered? My WH told me in his mind the M was already over. IDK if anyone knows the answer to that except for WH.....Its just so unnerving!

Oh good Lord woman, hush your mouth....the LAST thing I need my H thinking is that he was "special", because Mel said so...... ....


Now this is completely true. H would have NEVER thought of throwing me out of the house. He just moved out himself......it does puzzle me where these WW "think" they should get the house. It puzzles me even more when the BH actually DOES this (my dad included in this....). UNLESS, it is to effect Plan B, of course....


Be honest Mel, you really mean you like to PICK on me.......

Not

ps....ALL WAYWARDS SUCK....

Generally speaking, yes.

WW's are typically riding a chemical high from there infatuation. They truly believe they have found their soul mate, and will do ANYTHING in there power to protect and project there fantasy. Because of this they are more likely to villionize there BH to a further extent than a WH will.

They are making decisions based purely on emotional needs and reactions.

Even Dr, Harley says that WW are typically harder to get back in the marriage than WH.




They are both cruel, but a WW is typically more so.

I am reading this and have my own thread, but a quick question. What does it mean if the wife is a WAW, leaves me with the house and the kids, and moves into a crappy apartment just to get away. Says she no longer has feelings for me and would rather live alone by herself that alone with me. I have woken up and am trying Plan A, but she is moving out next Thurs.
Thanks

That she having an affair and will do anything to be with OP.

Well put!

One of the things that helped me understand cope realize wake up was this thread.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2242070#Post2242070

But her EA is with a guy in Fla., her mother's neighbor and we live in Buffalo.

From being on this board for two years I do think that WW are more self entitled and crueler (sp?) than WH. On DDay when I found out about my DH A, he called up the skank immediately dumped her and looked at me with tears in his eyes and told me that they were just two stupid ppl who were feeding off of each other's low self esteem. When I told him that I had talked to the XOW and she was mean he told me that we should go over there and hurt her because she has not right talking to me like that because she is so beneath me (what???). I could not believe this. At the time I had been M to him for over 15 years and I have NEVER thought my DH was capable of saying as many things about another woman that he told me about her. My DH changed his entire life around, has risked losing his job because for the last two yrs he refuses to travel unless I can go with him and has literally done everything in his power to save our M even when I had given up.

I do think that WW really think their OM is their soul mate and they get totally emotionally involved while WH can have an A and really not care about the OW. My DH swears that his XOW meant nothing to him, he said she just made herself available to him and worshipped the ground he walked on and he was at such a low place it felt good at first to have someone who worshipped him. He said after a while it became annoying because she became too clingy and started asking him questions about being together more than once every other month.

I can't believe some of the things I read on this board that WW tell their BH. I feel so sorry for some of them. If my DH would have EVER acted unremorseful or would have not acted like he chosed his M over some skank, I would have packed his bags and threw him out of my life.

Have you read SoL's thread?

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2271825#Post2271825

Depends on whether you're a BW or a BH.


I've seen some pretty wicked WHs...one up close and personal. I've read on MB about some pretty wicked WWs.

Who cares which is worse when your whole world is shattered? Whether it's shattered into a billion pieces or a gazillion...shattered is shattered.

This is like comparing the damage of an EA to a PA to a wayward who ends A upon discovery to a wayward whose A goes on and on to false recoveries to abandonment to financial ruin to exposing children to AP and on and on the wickedness goes.

It's all still devasting. Do we really need to measure the amount of devastation?

All I know is that what I endured was incomprehensible and almost not survivable while I lived it. If I had merit badges for all that I endured battling the affair, I would be well decorated...more so than many BH's. I am sure, however, that there are those(BWs and BHs alike) who would be far more decorated than I.

Yet here I am in a passionate, intimate marriage with my husband of over 20 years.

While battling an affair, work Plan A & B to the best of your ability. While recovering your marriage, work the MB recovery plan to the best of your ability. Don't worry about whether your WS is worse than others. I can assure you, we're all dealing with the person who has the power to hurt us more than anyone on earth. That doesn't need measured.

I am sorry to say this, but maybe she wants it to be more.

Yes.

Gack stated this:


I believe that WW's are a "little" more ruthless than WH's. The reason is simple:

"It has always worked in the past, so its time to ratchet it up"

Reading many threads here over the years, the BH's thought they had a good marriage. When the A occurs, the WW goes crazy, and becomes ruthless. What the BH learns HERE, is that thier early marriage had alot of issues, and learned to conflict avoid, to "keep the peace". And once the A starts, then all those things to keep the BH in line in the past are increased in intensity by the WW.

And its a bell curve. WH's can and are ruthless. I beleive that the percentage of "ruthless" WW's is at the higher end of this Bell Curve than the men.

JMVHO.

LG

The reasons are always the same. They have affairs because they don't have boundaries in place to prevent situations that make an affair possible.





Well now, doesn't that make men out to be real thuds and romanticize a wayward wife. The WW only wanted to feel needed....wanted....loved. WTH?! If only their BH would have needed, wanted and loved them. How about romanticizing the WH, too, just to be fair. Maybe he just wanted to be admired, appreciated and respected.






I've seen plenty of WH's here who walked away from long-term marriages and children. I'd say they were pretty well invested emotionally. There's too many of them around to call them an "exception".

tiaga,

Why don't you start a thread detailing your situation so folks here can help you find healing from the pain you are experiencing?

ITA with all of the above, I do not think it is gender specific, I think WW are more emotionally involved because women in general are more emotionally involved.

I also think that we as women do not understand how other women can do those kinds of things. And we also think that most men only think about sex and it is not as "forbidden" so to speak with WHs.

And I think it has a lot to do with the WSs personality as well some people in general feel more entitled than others, heck most of the ENTIRE younger generation feels more entitled that we did.

Uhm....were you joking???

Or are you looking to win the most merit badges? Is there a prize? If so, I'm not sure I'd want to win it!

Gee, this sounds eerily familiar. Scirugby, I might have to spend a little time gettin' up to speed on your sitch....

I was told almost a year ago from some fine folks here that a woman does not leave her house and children for any reason other than to make herself more available to someone else....

It turned out to be bulls-eye accurate......

TBC

Exception, no.
How about minority?

But we are talking about ruthlessness.

I have seen very few wayward husbands attempt to take the house and kids from BW.

But a large majority of WW do try this with there BH.
And want child support.
And want alimony.
And the cars.
A the furniture.
And the boat.

Even the dog!

No, I compare one devastation to another in all facets of life. It gives me perspective on how bad my life could be, and how good I would like to make it. How other people think and deal with both good times and bad. And compare those to my own actions and situations to give me some perspective.

Both for inspiration and precaution.

Sure, the discussion seems very similar to something along the lines of "Firing Squad or Hanging"? Both conjur up feelings of nastiness and discomfort and, frankly, the end results are no different.

WH or WW? Same end result with THIS comparison -- pain, anguish, emotional trauma. That being said, it is an interesting topic and quite thought-provoking......

We all know examples from each end of the spectrum. NEITHER side monopolizes the venom nor the ferocity generated to protect the fix found in the OP.

So from my view from the not-so-cheap seats, I'd still say that a WW is more ruthless. I think a WH wants what he wants, and once he gets it, he's fat, dumb and happy -- generally speaking of course. I think a WW, on a fairly regular basis, taps into her supply of villification for the BH in order to continue propelling herself on her path.

I think women, generally speaking, are more complex emotionally than men and thus, have to work the situation on a number of different levels. And in order to do that, they not only need a greater degree of momentum (than what would be required of a WH), but also longer sustainability to justify the situation on an ongoing basis.

And yes, JMHO.....

TBC

IMO

If the wayward spouse has a big old piece of luggage FILLED and OVERFLOWING with resentments .... There is more propensity and potential toward ruthless behavior.

It can apply toward WH or WW, however, it seems to me that WW's "in general" hold more grudges and are keeping score more often than WHs.

Is this universally true?
No, of course not.
But, I think there is a trend.

This.

Seems to me the WH often has the mindset of "I still love you, but I also care deeply for OW". The WH will often try to reconcile, but may fail because he is still drawn to the OW too much.

Where the WW is more prone to rewrite history and come at you from "I haven't loved you for __ years, can't change my feelings now, too little too late, don't know if I want to try." mindset. The WW is more apt to never give a real try to recovery.

Or I may be looking at it through the lens of my own situation.

Nope, Dr. Harley has said the same thing.

Don't we all? At lease a little?

I would have GLADLY given H the dog!!!.......

Not

hmmmmm.....could it be that WW's are more vocal about their resentments and entitlements?

This is the thought I keep coming back to in reading this......

You bet you are, schtoop. And that's just part of life. We are all by-products of our past, and it ultimately helps us to form a foundation for evaluating and interpreting people and events in the future.

Before I wandered into my marital Category 5, and before I found MB, I couldn't offer jack in terms of intelligent thought regarding this subject matter. (I realize some may argue that I STILL can't offer jack, but that's probably a separate debate...)

TBC

Not~~~~~> <~~~~~ Mel
(for those who are unsure who is who........ )

ABSOLUTELY.......ITA

{{{{{SMB}}}}}

Not

My WH tried to get me to leave the house....But I refused. Now he is living in a condo that is asking for more money than he cant afford....He is trying to get me to work because he cannot afford his double life and he doesnt want to lose his bachelor pad....He can move in with his mother for free....we will see how that goes.

He wants me to work so he can have a new car and a bachelor pad!!!!!! He does not want to move in with his mother because "he deserves a life too." Stupid, stupid Waynerds!!!!

this could be true!

I think the same can be said about WH's, i thought we had a good marriage too, i was TOTALLY blindsided by my h's A....

I would agree with this in so that women are probably more vocal with their resentments and complaints, which leads me to believe that they told their husbands a million times as well and they did nothing about it (not saying it is right to have an affair just saying a BH probably has more of a clue than a BW)....

A's are just devasting no matter who is the wayward spouse and who is the betrayed spouse .....

Stand back! Mel's gonna pull out the gun!!

Yeah, them there Texans are dangerous!

I didn't read far enough, did I.

She's ADMITTING IT!!

And here I thought Not was the one holding up the see saw!!!!

I heard nothing from Wayzilla. In 26 years I never heard once, �Listen. We need to talk about���..whatever. I was totally blindsided.

On D-Day she said she had tried for soooooo long and sooooooo hard to save the marriage.

I asked what was it she had done to save the marriage? Why had she never said anything?

She repeated, �I tried soooooooo hard.�

I asked again specifically what did she do and when did we ever talk about the complaints and resentments she had.

She repeated, �I tried soooooooo hard.�

I could see this was going nowhere. Then I asked what her complaints and resentments were. She really couldn�t articulate anything. Vague stuff about how we had drifted apart, how I had no plans or goals, how we had nothing in common anymore and how she had just grown up and wanted to be independent.

Over the next few weeks I got all the standard carp about how I never (good thing) and how I always (bad thing). �You didn�t talk to me when you picked me up from the airport that one time.� �You let DD quit basketball and I don�t think I can ever forgive you for that.�

Stupid little incidents that went back years.

But in the end she was no more ruthless than most other waywards.

� Are WW's more ruthless heartless than WH's?

As a female BS I would of course say it would be WHs and with male BS they would disagree totally and say WW.

It is comparing apples to oranges. Think that we should just lump all WW and WH together and call them swine.

I think all waywards are mean. I think women, in general, tend to be more vicious than men.

Only in Texas.

In other parts, we women are quite gentle and kind.

I think women, in general, tend to be more vicious than men. [/quote]

Mel,

Are you feeling a bit under the weather today????.......


I've come to expect more tenacious words than this for you......it was quite......mild......

Not

........

Sorry to burst your bubble schtoop, but WW don't own the corner market on this part of the "Wayward Handbook"....... I heard EACH and EVERY re-write line. And contrary to popular belief, my H wasn't unique nor an exception. He especially LOVED to recite the "too little too late" line. Usually when I was displaying my awesomeness of Plan A......

I've been around these part wayyyyyy too long to know he wasn't the ONLY WH say such dribble.



Yep you are.....but then again most of us do......

Not

No, y'all are mean, you silly yankee gals just don't carry arms!

I think it's a different kind of meanness or ruthlessness. But I have heard this saying in other situations, and it tends to be true there:

There's nothing meaner than a mean woman. Think about high school. A guy gets mad and he'll punch somebody in the nose. A girl gets mad and she'll rip you piece by piece, all the time laughing to her friends behind your back.

I know men can be mean, cruel, and very manipulative. But women seem to have a special gift for it. Maybe it IS a southern thing...we smile and call you "honey" with all that syrup dripping while we take apart your psyche.

As long as its prefaced by "why, bless her heart....."

If a WW doesn't get her way, all she has to do is utter six magic words and she has an 85% chance of :

- getting their BH kicked out of the house
- getting extremely beneficial temporary orders for custody in place. While they are "temporary", most temporary orders become permanent.
- create a situation where the WW can move the OM and and have BH support the OM

It's very easy for a WW to walk into a courthouse and paint her BH as an eminent danger to her and the kids. I say 85% because that is the rate that protection orders are upheld in my state. The burden of proof is extremely low and the courts err on the side of caution. If a BH is unrepresented, there is a very low chance the protection order will be vacated.

Wow! Is this the whiny-[censored] poor-me BH thread?

he's mean!!!

Just kidding!

Don't you men realize ALL women are just mean and nasty. LOL

Listen, ALL chicks cannot be sweet like me!

Is tst really really brave.....or really really mentally challenged??? hee hee hee

Besides (sob sob) we women would be sweeter if you men (sob sob) would just UNDERSTAND us!! You never listen to us!! You just don't know what it's like to be a woman!!! And yes, I do have PMS...what's your point, buddy! bwahahahahahahahaha

I'm southern. I don't have PMS, or sweat, or flat hair.

we are bein' oppressed by da man!!

I realize that generalities only apply generally, but my opinion on WHs vs. WWs is this: Women often use sex as a means to get "romance" and "love". Men often use "romance" and "love" as a means to get sex. This fundamental difference in approach also changes a lot of other things about the wayward relationship. A woman who believes her heart is involved can have a special kind of ruthlessness in dealing with anyone who stands in the way of her achieving her heart's desire. When I plotted with an inmate at a State Penitentiary to kill my husband, some 38 years ago or so, I would say I had "a special kind of ruthlessness." Wouldn't you? And no, I didn't go through with it, and in our old(er) age, he sleeps peacefully at night with both eyes closed and his guns locked up, and still wakes up in the morning!

There have been WHs described on this board who have done truly awful (I started to spell it "offal", which would've been correct, too, wouldn't it?) things to their betrayed spouses. If I name them, I'll miss some, so I'll just spout off another generality. But the most incredible, most horrific things that I have heard done around here, have been done by wives whose husband and/or children had become obstacles to her achieving her romantic dreams. I call it just plain nasty! And I should know.

tl

"When I plotted with an inmate at a State Penitentiary to kill my husband, some 38 years ago or so"

You did WHAT!!!!

I did just what I posted. You didn't read "The Sad Saga of OtherSusan the Stupid", did you, back in its day? That would be why you missed THAT little piece of pond slime that I dredged up for public consumption in telling of my life at the time when Neak was a toddler, before any of the other 3 children arrived. And I'm not dragging it back out of its grave, either!! My days of internet dancing emotionally naked on the table tops has come and gone!

I just know--not theorize, I know--what romantic ninnies will consider doing in the pursuit of their unholy dreams. It certainly cured me of my "ailment", however, and that vaccination has lasted now for almost 40 years without ever needing a booster shot.

tl

Leaving us with an incredibly small market, apparently, for guidebooks aimed at men about how to get romantic love.

Thank God for Marriage Builders.

Oh wow! I had no idea. No I didn't read the saga but I knew you had bared your soul at one time - I didn't know it was that. Well, here you are 40 years later - older and wiser - and I can only say how happy I am that you've never needed a booster shot. I mean that seriously. ((((T&L)))))

Actually, "that" was only a minor part of the Saga. I had a VERY bare soul by the time I finished, and some pretty big questions about what I'd been thinking to be so open and world-wide but it was certainly intoxicating and releasing while it was going on.

Then it was over and I turned back into a pumpkin.

tl

How did Neak and your other kids feel about you baring your soul?

Well, I could let them answer for themselves, but they're in another time zone and are all asleep. The story itself wasn't surprising to them. Neak almost died, with her father, his sister, his brother, and his wife in a small plane crash after I gave up on the murder plot and offered to sell my soul to the devil if my husband didn't survive that trip, I knew, of course, that the likelihood of Neak surviving was very small, but consoled myself with the thought that I was young and fertile and could have other children with the man I loved (not the plotting inmate).

Neak knew from somewhere in her younger childhood about this story, and that her grandpa had called me up from his home 750 miles away, where I assure you, he was not getting any information about my Satanic negotiations from ME! He told me that he and my mother were strongly impressed that Neak and her dad were in deadly danger, and they wanted me to know that they were praying for their protection. Even in my blind rebellion, I knew that if they were praying to God, and I was praying to Satan, just whose prayers were going to get answered. MY BIL was the pilot, and they ran into very severe, unexpected weather. Neak was sleeping on a pad, and the plane dropped so fast, so far that she was flung up into the air and smacked into the cabin ceiling. So when she heard the story, it was always all about how God sent His special angels to answer Grandma and Grandpa's prayers for her to keep her safe. I think it some ways it made her feel special. For the others, I don't know when they heard it, although they certainly all knew it by the time they were in their mid-teens.

For the soul-baring parts, only the girls read on MB, plus for awhile my younger son's now ex-wife, a place which anyone can see is where soul-baring is more the rule than the exception. Neak had no business being embarrassed, what with some of the things that came out in her story! At least mine was ancient history, not current events! And Neaksis contributed where she wanted to. If it was a problem for her, I never knew. I don't think so. She's got her own challenges with her adoptees and their post-molestation, post-abuse issues. I think the comparative anonymity of an internet site like this draws people further out than they would go if they were sitting in a room talking face to face to people they know well. Certainly the people who read the Saga knew more about me than the people who see me in church each week and have known me for years.

Still, it's 5 years down the pike and we're still here, although not so relentlessly exposed any more, so we must've survived our soul strip passably well.

tl

I'm speechless t&l. Thank God that God was looking after everyone. He does. I remember telling NCWalker once that even if I forget God, he never forgets me.

Very, very, very late to the party sorry.

Not ALL men have affairs for the sex. In fact I can say with 100% honesty, that Flick's affair was never about the sex. I also just asked him and he confirmed, if had only been a sex thing, he would not have taken up with PQ.

It is lack of communication about being unhappy in one area until it because the dominant thought in the mind. The dwelling allows resentment and entitlement to come and voila, instant adultery.

that usually happens when we do the "WW vs. WH" dance.....

All waywards are vile, evil, vicious creatures. Their sex does not matter...

Some are less vile, evil and vicious than others, but whether wife or husband is not the determining factor.

Men are more likely to compartmentalize, claiming and believing themselves that they still love their wife while having a mistress on the side. They are also less likely to give up said mistress for that very reason.

Wives might be more prone to holding resentments of the past open and using them to justify their affair. They are also more likely to care what other people think of them and so might be more willing to stop the affair once confronted.

Both wayward husbands and wayward wives can say and do some of the most awful stuff that Mankind has ever devised in the name of "real love" or under the assumption of entitlement.

When things are that wrong, how wrong beyond just plain wrong hardly even matters any more and one sin is like all the rest. Who can be more evil is a worthless debate at best.

IMO.

Mark

Ahhh...yeah!

�Both genders seem equally capable of falling into the temporary insanity of romantic affairs, though women are more likely to reframe anything they do as having been done for love. Women in love are far more aware of what they are doing and what the dangers might be.�

�Men tend to attach too little significance to affairs, ignoring their horrifying power to disorient and disrupt lives, while women tend to attach too much significance, assuming that the emotions are so powerful they must be "real" and therefore concrete, permanent, and stable enough to risk a life for.� [Dr. Frank Pittman, Private Lies: Infidelity and the Betrayal of Intimacy]

All adultery is cruel, contemptible, WRONG, and destructive (both of self and to loved ones), but there isn't much doubt that WWs are generally more entitlement-minded, emotionally-addicted, stubborn, and unrepentantly determined to throw away their marriages for their affair-partner. In the fog-state, (previously decent) cheating-husbands usually view their OW as a �fun addition� or �someone on the side�; (previously decent) cheating-wives usually view their OM as �their real love� or �the answer to their happiness�. One can easily see how WWs will tend to vilify and scapegoat their BHs and their marriages all the more to rationalize why �me and OM are soulmates, meant to be, and should be together�.

Dr. Harley admits this�at least indirectly. He acknowledges that WW-affairs are more difficult to break [if exposure doesn�t persuade the OM to dump the WW, the BH is pretty much up the creek w/o a paddle] and that WWs are harder to recover an infidelity-tainted marriage with. The fact that Dr. H advises BHs to Plan A for much longer than BWs reflects this sad fact as well.

WWs tend to �cake-eat� less and for a shorter time period. Even though cake-eating is painful and heart-wrenching for the BS, it is actually a DECENT SIGN. It is certainly not nearly as good as the WS ending the affair, displaying true remorse and repentance, and committing to marital recovery�but, it is WAY WAYBETTER than the WS ramming a divorce down the BS�s throat and chasing headlong after the affair-relationship. The latter is what WWs tend to do in fairly short order as long as the OM prolongs the affair. At least if your WS is still cake-eating, he/she is potentially salvageable and amenable to considering recovery. No question, WHs tend to cake-eat more and do it for longer.

All waywards SUCK�wayward-wives SUCK BIG TIME.

BINGO

I agree with much, but not all, of what Mark wrote. Certainly, ALL adultery is equally vile, evil, hurtful, and destructive. Neither gender of cheater gets �a pass�. There is no such thing as an �honorable or decent wayward�, male or female. I do not quibble one bit with the immoral and unethical equivalence of adulterers vs. adulteresses. I�m merely dealing with the likely mechanisms and realistic outcomes that clearly tend to differ a bit between cheating husbands and cheating wives.

Yes, the male mind has far greater capacity for compartmentalization than the female mind does. It is far more likely therefore that a WH will cake-eat and hang on to a dual life and do it for longer (pre- and post-discovery). As much as this hurts his crying wife, it does provide more opportunity for her to Plan A/B and allow time/pressure to crumble the affair. You don�t see very often a WH in short order file for divorce, ram it through, and go headlong into marital abandonment/exclusive-affair-pursuit mode. It does occasionally happen, but typically a WH will try to hang on to two women for as long as possible. If the affair remains clandestine, WHs often do it and get away with it for years. Men tend to be incautious and less cognizant of consequences when entering the affair, but more reluctant and cognizant of consequences when considering divorcing his wife for the OW he's been keeping on the side. When push comes to shove, many WHs don't really want a divorce.

Cheating-wives tend to enter an affair with far greater awareness and fore-knowledge of the marital implications and far greater emotional �investment� in their affair-partner. By the time the �we�re just friends� EA-nonsense becomes frankly sexual, a WW is likely to be far more addicted & sold-out to her OP and far more convinced that she �needs out of her marriage to be happy with OP� than a WH usually is. [And don�t kid yourself folks�unless it�s a long-distance internet thing or is caught VERY early, pure-EAs are pretty darn rare�most affairs are PAs well before they are discovered. All cheaters lie, but WWs especially tend to reluctantly admit to emotional attachment with the OM while implausibly denying that any physical consummation ever took place]. Wives may cheat less often than husbands (although that gap has been narrowing substantially over the last several decades), but they are more likely to reject recovery and pursue divorce when they do so. There is a bit of cultural bias here: our society still tends to view an affairing-husband as �a ho-good, two-timing cheater� and an affairing-wife as just a �victim of a bad marriage who just fell in love with someone else�. It's much easier for a WW to whitewash, sugarcoat, and "spin" her adultery-story than it is for a WH.

I agree that it seems logical that WWs are �more likely to care what other people think of them� but that doesn�t necessarily translate into being �more willing to stop the affair once confronted�. Many times (myriad MB & real-life examples here) I have sensed and witnessed the former but very rarely have I seen the latter. It is exceedingly rare for a romantic-affairing-WW to VOLUNTARILY end an adulterous relationship in full swing with a willing/reciprocating OM. Cheating wives usually resolve the �what-other-people-think-issue�, not by ending their adultery, but by viciously demonizing and badmouthing their BH & their marriage to family and friends. In short, they search for willing allies�cozying up those people that accept, overlook, or go along with their affair-life and discarding or marginalizing those that do not. It is much easier and more socially-acceptable for a (cheating) wife to vilify a �bad husband� and/or a �bad marriage� than it is for a (cheating) husband to do the converse. WWs often have little difficulty finding sympathetic and/or sycophantic ears among those they scapegoat their husband to�in order to rationalize, CYA, and justify doing that which they would never condone under any circumstances being done to them.

[Politically Incorrect moment coming here]
Let�s be honest here folks�in addition to the psycho-social mechanisms at play, a divorcing-WH usually has much more to lose financially than a divorcing-WW, he can�t generally plan on his OP to support/rescue him, and the family court system is flagrantly biased for women/mothers and against husbands/fathers�no matter who is the wayward in a no-fault state (which most are). As PSUBIKER (and I) have experienced, all a WW has to do to win misplaced sympathy in court is say �I�m scared�, cry a few crocodile tears, and bat her eyes while unrepentantly selling out her values and vows � and every WW knows that double-standard in advance. No man, wayward or betrayed, could ever get away with self-serving & diversionary mendacity like that. Remember, about 70% of divorces in the US are filed for by THE WIFE and there is no way all of those are BWs throwing in the towel.

None of the above makes WHs any less evil or cruel or wrong or sinful than WWs. But, it does explain the undeniable reality, acknowledged herein, that WW-affairs are less likely to result in recovery and more likely to result in divorce than their male counterparts.

WHs do this a fair amount of the time.
WWs ALMOST NEVER do this.

Both affairs are equally evil, but only one has become recoverable. Thank you, Cobol, for illustrating my point.

But usually, they are only vocal about AFTER they've met the affair partner.

If only they had used those allegedly superior communication skills to share with their now betrayed husband that they were becoming overflowed with resentments.

I think a large part of that overflow is the re-writing of history after they meet the affair partner.

We all know waywards lie. Therefore, if they didn't say it BEFORE the affair, saying it once the affair starts is suspect. (And that is being generous to the wayward.)

Do I believe they had valid criticisms of the marriage? Of course I do. But I doubt those criticisms reach the level of resentment and criticism a wayward (either husband or wife) presents after they are involved in the affair.

So if they never said they were unhappy before the affair, any complaints once they've begun the affair are most likely justification for their affair.

Almost verbatim what my ex-wife said. Said she had been trying, but was just too tired, didn't want to, whatever. When asked specific questions, the same, vague, I was trying so hard...

When asked for a list of her specific complaints, she said she didn't want to give them to me because she was afraid I would use them against her in the divorce.

Promised to give me that list after the divorce was final.

To this date, I've still never seen them, and the divorce was final over five years ago now.

Maybe there really were no complaints. I just wasn't as exciting as a married man, almost 20 years older than me, near her father's age, who was willing to leave his wife to be with her.

That didn't turn out so good for her.

Of course my mind was fogged out at the time, though I admit part of me cringes at the "fog" because it might be used in an "I couldn't help it because I was in a fog" kind of way by WS's, BUT My marriage really was BAD prior to the A. I thought many times about leaving. But I knew that if I left, I would be the bad guy, and after "all he had put me through," I didn't want to be the bad guy. So when my "friend" started noticing how hot/pretty/smart/funny blah blah blah......Oh! I can get what I am ENTITLED to and not have to leave H and be the bad guy. I'll live the wife/mother thing and still have "fulfillment."

Insert giant vomit here.

Yeah, I know exactly what the above sounds like. It sounds like an immature, selfish, self-serving, entitled, little scheming liar. That because that is what I was. I could have been more insistent in my complaints. I could have used all that resentment energy to actually WORK on my bad marriage. I could have drawn a line in the sand and separated to "wake him up." Or I could have just sucked it up and divorced regardless of the stigma. Any of that would have been better than sleeping with another man while making sure all my friends started hearing about how neglectful my H was.

So was I more ruthless than a man? I don't know. But I know I was ruthless and manipulative and a whole lot of other things the mods wouldn't let me type. And I had to hit bottom before I was willing to see it. Sometimes I'm still amazed that H was still around when I got there.

That makes sense to me Luri....To the point that the reason why my WH didnt just D me and leave....He didnt want to be the bad guy, still doesnt...So this was his way of getting what he wanted (OW) and not having to leave me....warped logic but it makes sense. Sounds exactly like my WH.

But makes me sad because that means the reason he didnt want to leave me wasnt cuz he had any love left for me, it was because he didnt want to be the bad guy, totally selfish...Oh well...I have given up anyway.

I'm so sorry still. He's a big dummy!

I someones wonder if I have some sort of "man in a woman's body" thing. Not in the gross sex change way. But many of my thoughts during the A, my view of sex in general, the way my top EN's are all on the men's side.....I don't know.

Then again, I usually don't fit the mold. Weirdness is my spiritual gift.

Yeah, thanks Luri....


Can you paralell park....That might be a good indicator if your a man in a womans body.....

{{{{Still}}}}}

Loves ya sweetie....and WH IS the bad guy (and stoopid too..... :D)

Not

ps....I HATE threads like these

Thanks Not, Love the hugs..

Uh....okay, I am a woman (whew!) Parking, driving, directions.....not my strong areas.

WHen I pick up my DS from school its mostly moms. The cars are parked a car length apart cuz no one can judge how close they are to the car in front of them....sometimes someone tries to park in between and they cant do it and have to park a mile away.It is hysterical watching women trying to parallel park ...

Men just seem to be able to do it I dont know why....My WH could back up fast into a tiny parking space...Well I could too but I would hit everything next to me....

I am one of the great parallel parkers of all time. If there was a parallel parking contest I would seriously win.

A small, but telling. thing.

The rational vs. emotional battle continues to rage. Which will win? Even I am losing interest.

Nah that would be me! I am parker champion!!