I am a 54-year-old woman. My husband is younger at 47.

We met over 12 years ago. We fell in love and moved in together in the fall of 2000. We married in 2006. We love each other very much, but he's not happy.

He's self-employed and over-worked. He heaps his plate so full that there are never enough hours in the day to get things done, and he complains because I don't help him enough. My plate is also full, so that means we are struggling to keep up with yard work, house work, and laundry. His energy is a hundred times greater than mine.

I went through the change of life and have lost interest in sex. I enjoy my husband, so I cannot explain why I am not meeting his needs. Maybe hormones? Don't know....

Many weeks ago, he got a telephone call. He left the room to speak, and I found that unusual. So I asked him about his call. He stated it was So&So (not using her name). Who is she, I asked. A friend, he replied. She's a 22-year-old girl who he met through a mutual friend. He didn't explain to me why she called, then he made a lame excuse for leaving the house.

I confronted him about it the next day. I told him that he's not a good liar and his excuse for leaving the house was unbelievable. He admitted that he had met that girl and spent some time together, but he said there was nothing to worry about.

I told him that it was wrong. He was a 47 year old man and he knew it in his gut that he should not be making excuses to his wife so he can leave the house and meet a 22 year old girl. He agreed and said it wouldn't happen again.

Yesterday, he told me he had to go out of town after work, and I assumed it was business. He drove my vehicle. He didn't get home until nearly midnight. He eventually told me that So&So had my vehicle. That she was in a bad situation, he felt sorry for her, so he went and got her, put her up in a motel (at our expense), and gave her my vehicle to drive.

I was livid. I don't cry or shout when I'm angry, but there was no way that I was going to allow my hubby to be her knight in shining armor.

I told him this is WRONG! He has lust for her, whether he will admit it to me or not. And for me, I told him, that breaks my heart and I'm feeling very threatened. If this thing with this girl has not yet crossed the line into a sexual affair, it's only a matter of time before it does! I am 54 years old. I'm showing my age! I cannot compete with a 22 year old, and I won't do it. He has to choose. His friendship with this girl or his relationship with his wife. He can't have us both!

I immediately exposed this matter to my sister and my brother; and my sister confronted him at his place of business. My sister exposed this to his parents and made my hubby get back my vehicle from this girl. I also had coffee with his mom and dad, and they state what he did was wrong--but they don't believe he is sleeping with her. His mom told me that her son (my hubby) was lonely!

Of course, we are all exhausted today. I'm emotionally drained. My hubby admitted that he cares about this girl and just wanted to help her, but he understands that I am feeling threatened and he chooses me.

I'm just at a loss right now how to meet his needs and do everything I should to keep him happy when I have ZERO energy! I'm exhausted. I don't have everything clear in my head yet, except that I love my husband dearly and want him to be happy.

Welcome and sorry for your pain.

Is this OW married? Who have you exposed to on her side?

Here.
Exposure 101

I found her facebook page and sent her a private message. She has a mom (who is younger than me!) who can help her. She doesn't need to turn to my hubby (and take advantage of his infatuation with her). I'm still digging for all the facts, but my hubby says she was in an unhappy live-in situation with a boyfriend. Nevertheless, my hubby knew in his gut that running to her rescue and putting her up in a motel would harm our marriage. Should I send a private message to her mother? I found her on facebook too.

Did you read the exposure thread?

Remember he is 100% responsible for his affair.

I would make a copy of all her facebook friends and family and expose.

How did they meet?

Thank you for responding, BrainHurts.

I read the exposure thread, then I sent a private message to her mother (who lives in another city). I told her about my husband and her daughter, that my husband was paying for her motel room, etc., and that I want to save my marriage. I asked her to come here and get her daughter ASAP.

I don't think it's a sexual affair, if my husband is telling the truth. I believe he is infatuated with this girl and would probably jump in bed with her if she gave the green light. I think he's fooling himself that this young woman would want him for anything other than his money.

My husband has his own business and he met her through one of his friends/customers.

I feel so selfish...starting all my sentences with "I, I, I," and I'm worried sick that my hubby is going through a mid-life crisis. I'm worried sick that maybe I'm too old for him and he's looking for a younger woman and renewed happiness. I'm just worried....

Deb, so sorry you have reason to be here, but I'm glad you have found the right place. Welcome.

Follow the advice given by the vets. To a T. Don't argue, don't hesitate. Right now, you are acting on pure emotions. Emotions don't serve us well. You need to follow a logical plan to save your marriage.

Exposure is key here. Did you read BH's link?

Read it. Ask us questions. And act as soon as possible before the affair becomes more entrenched. Or goes underground.

But it did happen again. Your WH (wayward husband) is already being caught out in lies. Dr H views waywards as addicts... right now, your WH is as high as a kite on the feelings this OW gives him. And addicts lie to get the next fix.

I'm sorry Deb, but I very much doubt your WH's story. He has lied to his wife about taking a 22-year-old woman to a motel, spent several hours with the skank, without sex? I suspect this is already a physical affair (PA). It is definitely, without doubt, an emotional affair (EA). I know this hurts. But you need to face the reality of your situation so you can act in your and your family's best interests.

If he chooses you, he will have no contact ever again with this OW. EVER.

But you still need to expose this. A wayward's word does not mean much. Expose, and have others hold him accountable. It throws reality on their actions.

By the way, do you have kids (and sorry if I missed this)? If so, how old are they?

Thank you Caracal. Question: Is this an affair? This thing between my husband and this "girl"? I think my husband is infatuated with her and she's using him!

I read the exposure thread and exposed this "relationship" to my sister and my brother; my sister confronted my husband; my sister (who loves me fiercely, and visa versa--lots of LOVE in our family) actually drove him to get my vehicle back from that girl; and my sister went and talked to his parents which gave me the courage to talk to his parents too. I sent the girl a private message and I sent her mother a private message.

Is that enough exposure? I don't feel comfortable sending private messages to her 400+ facebook friends. Yes, I am acting on emotion. I feel like the crazy wife trying to appear sane.

Again, thank you Caracal.

I was divorced from my first husband in 1989. My son from that marriage is 29 years old.

This is my second marriage and his first (and hopefully ONLY marriage). He doesn't have any children.

We lived together for several years before we got married. He wept at our wedding he was so happy. We are in love with each other. Of course we have "conflict" from time to time, but we talk it out. He has been my best friend and companion for 12 years. We laugh and engage each other in playful banter. The sex has not been frequent for many months, but I went through the change of life and can't seem to recover my sex drive. I know that he is 100 percent responsible for this emotional or physical affair, but I'm feeling so guilty. If only I was meeting his needs, maybe he wouldn't be looking elsewhere.

Yes, this is an affair. Affair partners (AP's) always "use" each other. Your WH is using her as much as she is using him. He is feeling like a knight in shining armour (KISA), feeling young, getting his need for admiration met by a young woman. He is hooked on how OW is making him feel. Otherwise, why would he be risking his marriage?

Well done Deb! You are showing yourself to be a warrior, putting up a fight for your marriage. When exposing, make sure you are saying to people you want to save your marriage. Ask them for help in influencing your WH. Ask them to put as much pressure on the affair as possible. After all, you are looking out for your WH's best interests. Affairs have a very very low success rate. Your WH is risking his family and marriage for a fling.

No, it is not enough exposure. Never underestimate the power of exposure.

Now, some questions before continuing exposure.

Do you have children? What are their ages?

Can you read OW's FB page? If so, copy and paste all of her FB friends to a word document in a safe place. You may need these for later when you do exposure of the OW.

Can you access OW's wall? Are there any posts about your WH? In my sitch, I struck gold when I got access to her FB wall.

Compile a list of all those people in your lives that may have an influence on your WH. Tell us this list. Particularly WH's family.

And if I was you, I would be snooping. Can you put a keylogger on WH's phone, computer? A voice activated recorder (VAR) in the car? A GPS tracker in the car? Especially this, so if he "disappears" again, you can tail him.

By the way, you are NOT crazy.

This is how waywards want to make a betrayed feel, it is so much easier to confuse and lie to us then.

I believe it is VERY SANE to doubt your husband when he has lied and deceived you as to his whereabouts when with a young woman.

I understand how this confusion and craziness feels... my WH did his best to keep the truth from me and make me doubt myself.

Put the snooping tools in place. VAR, GPS, Keylogger. That way, you are simply checking the truth for yourself.

Welcome to MB, I am sorry for the pain that has brought you here, but you have found the best place for advice and support.

Your husband is 100% responsible for the A. He had an A b/c he had poor boundaries around this woman. Maybe you were not meeting his EN (emotional needs) but that is not an excuse for him to have them met outside the marriage. You cannot punish yourself wondering what if. As I have sadly learned A also happen in happy marriages and in marriages where EN have been met.

Exposure is the most effective tool in killing an A. It interferes with the A as the AP (affair partners) can no longer hide in secret, the truth is out there. This makes it very uncomfortable for them and begins to impact their relationship.

In the notable posts there are many useful threads particulary Scotty's thread for newly betrayed spouses.

We don't have any children. We have three cats that we LOVE and dote on like children. My son from a former marriage is 29.

I can't read OW's page, but can access her friend's list. Will copy and paste as suggested.

I did access her pictures and downloaded her drunken party pics. Don't know why I did that except to maybe show my hubby that he can't keep up with this party girl. He's usually in bed every night at 10 PM. He works hard! And he makes lots of money. She will ruin him, make him lose sleep, spend his money, and eventually move on to spread her legs for some other "dude." These are things that I have already told him to try and shake loose his infatuation.

My husband has a sister and two brothers who live out of state. He also has numerous nieces and nephews. Some of them are on facebook, and I can send them private messages.

I have another sister and another brother who I can call and who will immediately call him or meet with him personally and put pressure on him to end this relationship with OW.

I did snoop in his text messages. OW lived in a town about an hour and a half away. He texted her just before 8:00 PM and said he was six miles out. He apparently arrived at her place a little after 8:00 PM and I don't know how long he was there. I was told she lived with her boyfriend, and don't know how long it took to load up her things and head back.

I texted my hubby at 10:00 PM and asked him to stop at store on his way home. He didn't reply.

At 11:00 PM, I called my hubby and he snapped at me that he was going to the store and he would be home shortly. I told him that I didn't call because I wanted stuff from the store, but because I was worried due to the lateness of the hour. He usually talks sweet to me and tells me he loves me during our calls, but he was curt in his responses and didn't say he loved me. That made me suspicious.

He got home around midnight and told me what he had done and that he gave my vehicle to OW to drive. We had words and I told him I thought something was up when he wouldn't say "I love you" in our phone conversation. He stated he was distracted because they were driving from motel to motel looking for a room because they were full (which I believe because our economy in one of the few places in US that is truly booming). He stomped off to bed. He sent a text message to OW at 12:20 AM asking her if she made it to her room okay. (He did come out of his room later to talk to me, said he couldn't go to sleep knowing his wife was unhappy with him.)

Therefore, I don't think they slept together.

I don't know anything about spyware or gps trackers, but will check it out.

Check this forum out for advice on snooping:
Operation Investigate

Deb, the vets should arrive soon to give advice. Hang in there, you sound like you have resolve even in the face of adversity...

Thank you, happyfuture66 for the welcome.

My husband told me that he cared for this young woman like a "daughter" and I responded that I may seem sweet and naive most of the time, but I was not born yesterday. That "daughter" comment clearly suggests that he has been spending a lot of time with her that I didn't know about.

Deb, I can't know for sure, but methinks you are in some denial here.

Guys who are working hard and strapped for time don't go out of their way after-hours to "put other women up" in hotel rooms simply as selfless charity.

I'm a guy who had an affair, Deb. I don't have to guess too hard about how married guys "think" when they get their heads messed up that way.

I suggest you play it cool, say no more about it to his family (who are obviously useless) and snoop until you get convincing evidence. Your husband thinks he can fool you, although he & his lover may try to take it underground now that they know you're onto them. So you've gotta go into "Jane Bond" spy mode here for a spell.

Denial? Probably. My husband and I just had another talk, and I so want to believe him when he tells me that he loves me with all of his heart. He was tearful and stated that my sister's words truly resonated with him. She asked him how would he feel if the shoe was on the other foot, and your wife put up a young man in a motel and gave him your vehicle to drive? He stated he would be outraged! He got caught up in being her KISA and didn't think things through. He never wanted to cause me any pain. I want to believe him and forgive him and take him in my arms and never let him go! I love my husband!

MB does not advocate just simply giving away forgiveness. Rather, the offending spouse EARNS forgiveness.

How does your H earn your forgiveness?

First, he writes a No Contact letter to the OW. Sampes of NC letters

Next, institute Extraordinary Precautions for life. EPs are non-negotiable.

Here's a list I gave to my FWH:
1.) No contact ever again with Affair Partner
2.) Total Transparency:
a. Email passwords shared
b. Accounting for all time and money
c. Eliminate all social networking sites, except for shared FB account
3.) No communicating with a female in any other way than the necessary professional manner needed for work
4.) No intimate conversations with a female (no conversations about anything personal, such as likes, dislikes, marriage, music, etc)
5.) No flirting, no inappropriate conversations or jesting.
6.) No terms of endearment of any kind, except for those in our immediate family.
7.) No business mentoring with a woman.
8.) Women must be at least an arm's length away.
9.) No porn, no �adult� clubs or shops, no chat rooms
10.) No nights apart.
11.) No recreational activities with the opposite sex.
12.) No interactive online games.
13.) Share/trade phone when asked

Finally, agree to build a romantic passionate marriage. This must involve a PLAN. No plan is a plan to fail. We used MB Online Seminar, which was invaluable to us.

Deb, I'm afraid you're really falling into the trap of listening and believing what you want to believe, and not what is probably reality.

A lot of "older" (hah) women come here and think that their husbands have a ridiculous notion of being with a 20-25 year old girl, as if that would ever happen. Well, that's really giving too much credit to a girl who is willing to even entertain a conversation with an older married man. You're looking at the situation through the eyes of a wise and rational woman who is old enough to know better - if she were that young girl again. But you're not looking at it through the eyes of an (IMO) damaged young girl with issues and a desperate need for male attention/money. They will do anything to get it and often take it as 'flattery' or boost their self-esteem by thinking a man would choose them over their spouse.

Heed the warnings previously - this is almost certainly beyond an EA and there has been physical contact.

Deb, welcome to Marriage Builders. I agree with the others that this sounds like a lie. But there is a good way to resolve this question: have him take a polygraph. If he is telling the truth, he should be happy to do so. I don't think you are getting the full story here.

The next steps will be for him to end contact with her by sending her a no contact letter that is written together and approved by you. He will have to open up life so it is so transparent that you know what he is doing all the time. He needs to give you full access to his cell phone, voice mails, with all passwords.

I would put spyware on his cell phone too. How will you get your car back?

Deb. I'm sorry you find yourself dealing with this but you have found a safe place here.

Think about what your H is telling you. If he really thought of this OW as a daughter and was just trying to be a good a samaritan then why didn't he tell you about it from the beginning? Why the secrecy?

Stop confronting him. You have already found out that he won't tell you. Install a GPS / VAR in his car (Best Buy, Target, etc) and spyware on his phone.

You should easily get the truth once you take these simple steps. Also, don't underestimate the lengths that this OW will go to keep her sugardaddy. You need to be the smart one here. Trust only what you can personally verify. Get the spyware.

Have you exposed to good friends who have influence on your WH?

I agree with all who say you are being niave and believing any kind of dish your husband is serving to you. Not because it makes sense (it doesn't) but because you do not want to believe the much more painful opposite.

Listen to the vets and absorb their snooping techniques. Do not tell your WH about this site or the techniques you put into place. Do not even tell him about the facts you gather until you have everything you need.

Do not fool yourself into thinking your WH is some kind of victim here. This is not a case of your WH being taken advantage of, anymore than his young AP is being taken advantage of by an older man. They are both adults making decisions for their own benefit. Could be a situation of OW having herself a sugar daddy. Or maybe it is more! I have an XSIL who left my BIL for a much older man (22 yrs older), XSIL and her AP are still married a decade later. You need to take this more seriously.

Yes, they all know how to cry and weep and express great remorse on demand. It doesn't mean anything. A better gauge will be a polygraph test.

I would call your local police station and get a referral to a good polygraph tester and make an appointment for your husband. Hand your husband a list of your questions that you need answered BEFORE the test. After that, you fully expect him to pass the test..

He should be thrilled for the opportunity to clear his good name and remove all doubts.

At the age of 22, this young woman's mother has no control to 'come and get her.' Although exposing to her parents would be effective. Why are you hesitant to expose to ALL of her family and friends?

...if my husband is telling the truth... only, he's not. He is NOT telling the truth. Is it a PA yet? Maybe, maybe not. You will NOT find the answer to that question by asking him, because he is a wayward and waywards lie.

I think YOU are fooling yourself that this young woman would never 'give him the green light.'

Also, Dr Harley does not believe in Mid Life Crisis. So put that out of your mind. Your WH is having an affair, and is behaving like someone having an affair, nothing more.

Thank you LongWayFromHome.

Before this happened, he was becoming moody and unhappy. I think--or hope--this has been an eye-opening experience for him. After all, what does he really have to be unhappy about? Successful business, money, a nice home, and a wife and lots of family members who love him. I think he realized how close he came to losing it all and figured out that he needs to be counting his blessings rather than wallowing in illusory discontent. I cannot GIVE him forgiveness as much as I want to do so. He has to earn it.

And Alis: Your words about this girl sound as if you were listening in on my husband's and my conversation this morning. She has been crying on his shoulder about her childhood (her mother did not stop her from being sexually permiscuous and allowed her to have men spend the night with her when she was only 15 years old). I don't know if she has done much else with her life but drink, smoke pot, and shack up with men. She is probably damaged, but it's not my hubby's job to fix her. She needs to fix herself. That isn't going to happen while she sits on her pity pot and expects other people to feel sorry for her and pay her way in life.

I wonder how much time he spent listening to this girl whine about her miserable [very young] life. Misery loves company, so he was probably telling her that he's got a miserable life too. I wonder if he whined to her about how he has to work so hard, and how I don't do enough to help him, and how I don't meet his needs, etc.

All kinds of thoughts spin around in my head. Spin. Spin. Spin. Love one minute, anger the next.

Please listen to these radio clips of Dr. Harley talking about how a mid life crisis is not the reason for her husband's affair.
Radio clip on mid life crisis
Segment #2
Segment #3

Tell us what you think.

Deb, this is very dangerous thinking, my friend. if your husband is unhappy in your marriage, the solution to change that. NOT to ask him to just accept an unhappy marriage. If he is unhappy at home, that makes him vulnerable to females that offer to make him happy. And it sounds like that is what has happened here. The OW has probably been meeting his needs, which is what led to this affair.

The other issue is that your husband has poor boundaries around women or this would have never happened. When a spouse has poor boundaries around the opposite sex, they are always vulnerable to an affair when their needs are not being met at home.

My sister, bless her heart, stayed up half the night with me after I learned about this girl. My husband went to bed and I needed to talk! She confronted my husband the next day and she demanded that they go and fetch my vehicle. She drove him to the motel and made him drive my vehicle home. She was very tenacious and gets things done.

A successful business, money, a nice home....these are not things that bring happiness. You will find many, many people on here that have had A's who have all of these things. Yet they were still unhappy. Why? Because they did not get their needs met.

I am not suggesting that unmet needs are a reason for affairs, just that they create an environment that is ripe for an affair to take place. It was still your H's choice to go forth and have an affair, many people have unmet needs who do not have affairs.

I am just suggesting that you should not say to him, buck up and be happy, look at all these things you have to be thankful for. You should understand that there were factors that contributed to the environment leading up to his affair that need to be changed.

I know you said his need for SF is not fulfilled, due to your hormonal level. Dr Harley has some good articles in regards to meeting the need for SF. This cannot be overlooked or dismissed. For you to recover from this A and move forward to affair proof your M, you will need to commit to meeting ALL of each other's needs.

That is, when this A is over, and I don't think it is.

Quoting for emphasis. It is not over.

He didn't tell me in advance because he knew I would not approve. I suppose, after he gave her my vehicle to drive, then he had no choice but to be "honest" because I would surely notice my lack of transportation.

The people who have the most influence on my husband are his mom and dad, and they have been told. His dad assists with my husband's business, so I think he will be monitoring the situation very closely.

Deb, will your husband agree to end all contact for life with this woman?

Yes. I am feeling very threatened by this 22 year old girl. I told my husband, if he felt compelled to help her out, he should have put her on an airplane and sent her to another state. He is paying for her motel room. Makes me angry. One emotion right after another.

Break up the affair or at least make it very uncomfortable to continue.

Do not believe what your H tells you. He will lie to continue the affair but to also continue his marriage with you. He likes having both.

He may have cried at your marriage, but, that shows how he is a 'romantic' who is so very moved by emotions, he is inspired to follow the romance in his life.....aka....starting an affair with another person.

Deb,

You seem to be misled by the notion that this was him 'helping her' which got out of control. After all, that makes him look like a poor misguided old fool, right?

I would suggest to you that this is just a hogwash story to cover up what the real intentions were. He was 47. 47!!!! If he was 90 then I'd say "Uh oh, he's being an old fool" but he is way too young to be making these sorts of excuses.

It's a tactic to get you to not realize what's really going on, sorry.

He would flunk. Even knowing that, I can't hate him. I am pathetic!

How will dragging him to the police for a polygraph test save my marriage?

The police do not offer polygraphs to individuals but they can help direct you to one who does it privately.

You can't save your marriage if you don't know the truth. Right now, your husband's story is a load of baloney to anyone who views it objectively. With a polygraph, you can know what really happened and go from there. You'd be surprised how many people tell the truth right before the polygraph is given.

If you try and recover your marriage believing it was just some dumb knight in shining armour who got carried away, then you're going to be misled in what steps to take afterwards.

You do not go to the police for a polygraph. There are many independent companies who provide polygraph testing.

So by your admission that 'he would flunk' you are stating that you know he has and is lying to you about this A? Other A's? And you are OK with this why?

Have you read Dr Harley's PORH (Policy of Radical Honesty) concept?

Here you go.
Polygraph Testing

"He is paying for her motel room. Makes me angry."

Darn skippy it should make you angry. You need to protect your families financial state from this woman, asap. Your WH is financing his AP's life. What are you doing to put a stop to this?

You have to have the truth in order to save your marriage. That is how. If you know he will flunk, then you are admitting that recovering your marriage will be impossible because a marriage cannot survive based on lies and deceit.

It is obvious to us that your husband is lying about his affair. What typically happens when a betrayed spouse schedules a polygraph is the wayward spouse sings like a canary becuase they do not want to flunk the test.

Deb, you are in a serious crisis here and i don't think you understand how important it is to be proactive. Your marriage will not recover by accident.

You are going to have to man up here and be more assertive about your marriage. You are headed to divorce but don't seem to realize this. The longer you are complacent, the harder it will be to save your marriage because the affair is becoming more and more entrenched every day that passes.

You have a very small window of opportunity to kill this affair before it gets too strong.

"I told my husband, if he felt compelled to help her out, he should have put her on an airplane and sent her to another state."

Also, have your read Dr Harley's POJA (Policy of Joint Agreement) concept?

Your H should not EVER make a decision to help another woman out without complete knowledge and agreement from you. Frankly, I don't even let my H go help single female neighbors scoop their driveway in the winter because it fills their needs and his needs and I am not in agreement with that, for obvious reasons.

He shouldn't have done ANYTHING for this woman. He should not be trying to 'help out' other women at all.

I would DEMAND that he end all contact with this girl TODAY, Deb. You cannot afford to be complacent here. Your marriage is under assault.

Exactly. He is NOT a misguided fool. This was a choice.

Deb. I know you are hurting and I remember how consuming that pain is...but you need to take action to kill this.

Don't fool yourself into believing that this OW will just go away on her own. Why is he still paying for her motel?

What he did was completely inappropriate for a married man. Married people should not have opposite sex friendships in the first place. And now you know why!

100% agree.

My husband told me that he is paid for her room until Friday. I was told that her mom would come and get her on Friday. I was also told that she just needed a few days to think about what she wants to do. Maybe she will call her dad in North Carolina and go live with him.

I exposed this relationship to her mother because I was told that exposure is the only way to kill an affair. If my husband gives her one more dime or pays for one more day, then I will serve him with legal separation papers and my hubby can go live with HIS mom and dad . . . or at a motel. He's a grown man. Then again, I'm an emotional wreck right now. I feel love one minute, anger the next.

My husband said he was afraid she might be suicidal. I have never met her or talked to her, so I don't know what to think. I don't want to be responsible for pushing her over the edge if such an edge potentially exists.

Deb, you must start FOCUSING on killing this affair before it gets out of hand. Go to him now and DEMAND that he agree to NEVER EVER speak to her or see her again. He must agree to end all contact for life.

"She might be suicidal"... Deb, this is a huge red flag to you that he is still making up yet another "knight in shining armour" story to deflect you from the truth.

Have you gone to the bank and demanded the financial statements to review for yourself? I suspect you might be finding other purchases.

Why is this 22 year old being spoken about by all these adults as if she was a toddler? She's 22, how many of us were already married and had kids of our own at that age? Let's get a grip here, she's a grown woman and has been for at least 4 years!

"my husband told me..." "I was told..." "I was also told..." "my husband said...."

You need to snoop and find out what is going on FOR YOURSELF. You are listening to the word of a man who is hiding an affair from you. Why? You already said you knew he would flunk a poly, which means, you know he is lying to you. So why are you listening to his lies?

Who cares what happens to the POSOW. She is not your concern. You are no more responsible for her well being than my dog is. If our WH is telling you she is suicidal, then he is using that to manipulate you to get you to do NOTHING to stop his A.

Exposure is the best way to kill this A. You have done a mini exposure. Blow this up and you will very likely kill the affair.

I haven't been meeting his sexual needs. That I know.

I agree with everyone that I cannot rely on what he tells me; I need to discover the truth.

Yes. He told me he chooses me and he agreed to end all contact with OW.

Please refer to the samples of No Contact letters. You will want to have your husband write a no contact letter to the OW, which you will approve of and mail for him.

Again, you do not want to take his word that he has ended all contact with her.

After mailing the letter however, you will need to continue to snoop to verify that contact has indeed ended.

Thank you for responding. He is so compassionate and tender-hearted! That's one of the things that I love about him. And yes, that makes him vulnerable to those who can tug at his heartstrings.

Also I would consider the poly. Why do you think he will fail? Do you mean regarding this A, or do you mean there are other things you think he is hiding from you?

You CAN have a great marriage, better than you have ever had. But the road to that marriage cannot be achieved with deception. I would suggest you schedule a poly for your WH to get your cards on the table. Many posters on here use the excuse that they do not have the funds for that, but it sounds like that is not an issue for you.

I have told myself this very thing! He feels with his heart and thinks with his little head. Dangerous combo!

But Deb, he DOES think with his head - that's why he'd been lying to you about what he was doing, because he knew you'd realize it was completely inappropriate.

If he was thinking of his heart only, he would come home and tell you he met some poor young girl and she needed help. He didn't. He set her up in a motel and is trying to get you to back off by saying she might be suicidal.

Deb, do you understand that your view of him being a na�ve fool with a heart of gold is actually patronizing? It implies that he is so dense that he actually went into this with honest intentions.

47 year old married men don't have honest intentions with damaged 22 year old girls.

I know it comforts you to feel he may have been a kind fool who went wrong, but that is to make you feel less threatened about the situation rather than it be the reality of what it is.

Can't I just hide my head in the sand like an ostridge and pretend OW sitting in motel room doesn't exist?

That's what I want to do; but can't do....

I asked him why he told me this girl was like a "daughter" to him. It didn't make any sense to me at all and he said, "I lied about that." He said he was confused about his feelings, he doesn't understand why he developed feelings for her, or why he cares about her situation. He just thought that telling me he "cared" about her in a "fatherly" way would diffuse the situation and help me to feel less threatened.

So, he has admitted he lied to me about his feelings for her...so I expect there are more lies to be uncovered.

He's a grown man with credit cards, bank cards, and plush bank accounts, and there is nothing I can do to prevent him from paying for her motel room. I won't tell him to take her back where he found her because that would mean another trip. All I can hope right now is that her mom will come and get her and she will be leaving town on Friday.

If I discover that he is still financing her living after Friday, I can see my lawyer and start formal separation proceedings.

If I were you, I would take time off work immediately and grab my H and have him leave town with me for a couple weeks.
No cell phones.
No time apart. Not even to take a quick stroll around the block.

You must stop being so weak and trying to give either of them benefit of the doubt.

Do you not have access to these records??

Deb, I would keep pushing for the truth before he clams up. Ask him when this affair started and if he has been to bed with her. Tell him you would like him to take a polygraph. I assure you he is lying about that. I suspect the reason she needed a hotel is because her boyfriend found evidence of her affair and kicked her out.

Dear WD (won't call you by your full screen name):

Can you go online and track his expenditures?

PLEASE watch the money. Although they may be his accounts, I'm assuming they're paid with joint money?

Now that his expenditures have caused conflict, he may start to shift money to an alternate account/credit card so you can no longer track how he is spending....

If this girl "has no where to live," her "needs" may become very expensive.

If he's impulsive enough to give away YOUR car, which you would obviously notice immediately, he may be impulsive enough to, for example, buy her a car.

BV

Deb,

Have you read about Plan A here?? You've gotten a lot of good advice but I'm not sure you are aware about MB's Plan A yet.

Right now it seems like you've started Plan A but you might slide into a bit of Plan Deb which can lead you astray.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html

My H is a grown man who is a corporate executive, and I am a SAHM. Yet because we are married, he does not have access to OUR money that I do not have knowledge of. We do not have separate finances or independent financial lifestyles. And I will guarentee you that I would not say 'there is nothing I can do' if he were financing the lifestyle of another woman.

I 100% agree that you should not tell him to 'take her back where he found her.' Much like your WH is a grown man, this OW is a GROWN WOMAN. He wasn't responsible for her before, and he is not responsible for her now. She's not a puppy to be returned to the petshop. He should have NO CONTACT with her, and if that means she gets kicked out of the motel and has to figure out her own way back to...wherever she came from, great thats her own problem, not yours. Thats what happens when you mess with a married man.

Deb, I do not want to sound like I am coming down hard on you here! I have been in 'head in the sand land' and I didn't have friends who challenged me enough and I wish I had! Because HITSL is not a good place to be. I do not want to see you further hurt by lies and deception. I want to see you stand up to your WH and not believe his wayward fog talk, and stand up to this tramp who is not only using YOUR family money to finance her lifestyle but also has her grubby hands on YOUR HUSBAND. Not acceptable. I want to see you get mad about this, and do whatever you need to do to put a stop to it. And then I want to see you and your husband recover from this with an entirely different and better marriage than you have ever had.

Deb, you are getting great advice. I am worried you are ignoring this, that you are in what we call a betrayed spouse fog. Denial. I am worried that you are not still posting, because you argue that the people here don't know you or WH.

I did this too. I argued with the good, objective people here, thinking I knew my WH better than they did. My mistake... I knew my husband... the wayward alien, I had no clue who he was.

Where did this land me? My WH is now living with a 21-year-old skank (he is 37) that is about 8-month pregnant.

I share this to try to shock you into action. I NEVER thought this would happen to me or my marriage. It did.

And 20-something year olds can be VERY predatory. I also initially thought OW was naive and possibly being taken advantage of by WH... I have since had her own family tell me she is a predator.

Please keep posting. And please follow the advice. FIGHT for your marriage now, before the affair goes further.

Thank you all for your responses. I have read your posts several times trying to drink in all the information.

Where do I find the energy?

At moments I feel so strong and resolved to do the hard work necessary to save my marriage and build the amazing marriage that I want, and the one that I believe my husband wants too.

At other moments, I feel overwhelmed and weak and fearful of sounding too threatening, too angry, or too disrespectful of his feelings.

I told my husband that there could be absolutely NO CONTACT with this girl. I informed my husband about the MB website and introduced him to the concepts. He was eager to learn more about the MB program. Then he told me OW called him at work today, and I informed him that was a violation of his vow to me that he would have no further contact with OW.

I asked him how long this telephone conversation lasted. About 10 minutes, he said. That's a VERY LONG TIME! I explained to him that it only takes a few seconds to say, "don't ever call or contact me again," and to hang up the phone. I explained to him that he is betraying me and harming our marriage when he spends even the briefest of moments connecting emotionally with her. No contact means NO CONTACT!


I was weak and should have demanded that he write the no contact letter right then and there.

He will write that no contact letter in the morning! I have to stop being weak!!!!

I told my husband about the absolute need for transparency. I don't have access to his business financial records and bank accounts. I insisted that he must provide me with access and I would review his records to verify that he has not extended his financial generosity to OW beyond what he has already admitted. He agreed.

My husband and I also discussed a matter that we had been kicking around the last several weeks before I found out about OW. This would be a major transition in our lives in preparation for our retirement together. I told him about the policy of joint agreement, i.e., never doing anything without an enthusiastic agreement. We discussed what we needed to do to make this transistion work for both of us and enable us to build the marriage that we both want.

We had a renewed excitement about our future together that embodies the policy of undivided attention. We agreed to fill out the worksheets and I told him that I was willing to meet his most important emotional needs if he was willing to meet mine.

I think, based on our conversation, that my husband knows that I am approaching him with respect and thoughtfulness. He has acknowledged his mistake. He knows that the telephone call with the OW is unacceptable to me and that "no contact" means "NO CONTACT"! He must agree never to see or speak to OW ever again for his entire life! I believe this is PLAN A.

If he will not write the no contact letter to OW in the morning when I ask him to do so, and provide me with the complete transparency I need to ensure his relationship with OW is over, then we can't move forward toward recovery.

OW's mother did respond to my private message on Facebook and confirmed that she is coming to get her daughter. She told me her daughter was a good girl and would do the right thing. I don't care about OW's mother's opinion, I just want OW gone as soon as I was told she would be gone!

I am absolutely exhausted, but I think we made some progress. I'm trying to read and learn about all the MB concepts and how to employ them appropriately.

Unfortunately, the affair is not over and your husband is not serious about ending it. There is no progress other than a bunch of smoke your husband is blowing at you to throw you off the path. The fact that he took her call says everything. I am very scared for you, WrinkledDeb, because this young woman would stand to gain so much by getting pregnant.

I am afraid you are going to have to take a much more assertive approach if you want to save your marriage. I don't think you understand the danger you are in though.

I assure you he is giving her money and probably did yesterday. I would get those bank statements NOW, trade cell phones with him, put spyware on his phone.

He also has to provide a way that she cannot reach him at work even if that means taking a leave of absence.

I am scared for you because you don't understand the true nature of your dilemma.

This is a distraction until you have effectively killed the affair. Please focus on getting rid of the OW so you will have a marriage to save. Your H will enjoy talking about worksheets if it takes the focus off his ongoing affair.

If you want to see where this is probably headed if you don't kill it, go over and read the Pregnancy forum. It is devoted to betrayed wives whose husbands got their mistresses pregnant. Your H would be a perfect target for a homeless 21 year old skank.

WB,

Welcome to MB. You have been getting excellent advice. Mel is absolutely right about killing this affair before OW can manage to get pregnant.

You said your H will write an NC letter today. Although this seems like a minor thing, it is hugely important that he write the letter and you approve it and mail it.

I see your H has agreed to show you all bank and phone records etc. Don't let him slide on this. Get them today and look at them. Monitor them in the future.

I think the idea of the two of you going away for a couple of weeks is a good one. By the time you return, OW is out of town and your husband will have had time to go through the beginnings of withdrawal (Deb, the more you learn about affairs, you will be amazed about how similar affairs are to drug or alcohol addiction). A trip away would also give you and your husband a chance to spend some undivided attention towards each other.

Be firm. Don't let your H talk you out of these things.

Finally, DO NOT share this website with your husband at this time. He is in an active affair and foggy. At this point, he could use the informaton on this website against you and your marriage.

AM

Deb,

You have made a lot of headway from your first post! But I can see the Deb who still wants to believe her H is a good guy who would never do such a thing as cheat or get a 22 yr old pg peeking its head out. This is the Deb that must be eliminated. Your WH could do this and is following the path to do this. The sooner you recognize the reality of that the sooner you can get to work to kill this A.

"At other moments, I feel overwhelmed and weak and fearful of sounding too threatening, too angry, or too disrespectful of his feelings."

Here's what you have to challange about your way of thinking. Your WH is heading down a path that will destroy his life. His momentary happiness when being with OW is just that, instant gratification and need filling. It is not true happiness. Ultimately, if left to continue down the path, his adultery will destroy everything he holds dear to him. Do you love him enough to do whatever you can to stop that from happening?

I have heard many people refer to adultery as an addiction, like drugs or alcohol. If he had become addicted to heroin, for instance, would you feel like you were being disrespectful to ask him to stop? Or would you feel like you were actually doing him a FAVOR by demanding that he stop his addiction, before it destroyed his life.

Let's also look at how you feel like you sound too angry or disrespectful. If you were to have a 22 year old male 'friend' who you had feelings for and lusted after, and lied to and deceived your beloved husband to spend time with and spend money on, and your beloved husband told you 'DEB, that is VERY hurtful to me and you are to have ABSOLUTELY NO CONTACT with this man again." Would you feel like HE was being disrespectful to YOU??? Of course not, thats silly.

As it stands right now, your husband has been completely disrespectful to YOU, your marriage and your marriage vows, to bring this other woman into your life. He has hurt you, hurt your relationship, and exposed your life and your finances to this OW. Why on earth would you feel that you do not have the right to be angry about this? And why on earth would you think it is disrespectful for YOU to stand up to this type of treatment?

Also, have you shared this thread with him or informed him you are posting here? If not, then as armymama said, DO NOT share it with him. This is your support network right now, to help guide you through this. You do NOT want him privy to the information being shared with you, until it is safe to do that (when you are well along your way into recovery). You are no where near that yet.

Deb,
As a FW who has taken two polygraphs, I can tell you it did wonders for my W. After your experience with this skank, you need a clean slate.

Your WWH has already trickle truthed to you. It is imperative you face the truth and understand there is more to this tragedy. The more you snoop, the more you will uncover.
Stand firm to a plan which by all means should include a polygraph.

If he loves and cares for you as much as he says he does, and has nothing else to conceal, he will schedule the poly himself. Be ready for the possibility of more lies. Also be ready for marriage building that will take you so far away from the marriage you currently have to a marriage you never dreamed possible.
Because of my W's willingness to not give up on us, we have a marriage that continues to thrive and the sky is the limit.

If he is in it to win you, you will be a 'wrinkled Deb' to him no more!

Stay strong. You can do this!

I have not told my husband about this discussion forum. I did tell him about the MB website, and talked to him about some of the concepts. I'm keeping this forum private; something that is difficult for me to do because I never found it necessary to keep a secret from him before.

I thought that was one of the "beautiful" parts of our relationship--our openness and honesty with each other about our inner-most thoughts and feelings. I have shared my entire being with him and trusted him with every vulnerable inch of my soul, if that makes any sense.

The more information I dig out of my husband, the more betrayed I feel. How could this affair be going on behind my back for so very long? He met this girl when she was only 17! She was the girlfriend of some young man that used to help my hubby out from time to time when he needed extra day labor at his business. And my hubby has admitted that he has helped her out financially in the past. I want to explode with anger. How many years has my hubby been lusting after this girl? How many times has she gone to visit him at his place of business with her sob stories and her hand extended for some cash assistance with her troubles?

The name I chose for my screen name is an open display of my fears and vulnerability. I look down at my aging hands. They're not smooth and youthful, but show all the years of washing dishes and scrubbing floors and toilets. I look in the mirror and I see jowls forming. My sister and I have often joked about taking a trip to the "spa" which was our code word for going to get one of those "lifestyle lifts" advertised on TV. But it was truly a joke and I never felt any compelling need to recapture my youth through cosmetic surgery or inappropriate behavior. I'm the mother of a 29 year old son and I'm looking forward to becoming a grandmother someday.

Even so, I suppose every woman no matter how old they get want their husbands to desire them. My hubby always made me feel loved and desired and would remark on his own gray hair and belly that was starting to bulge. We wanted to grow old together, and now I fear that I will end up alone without the man I love by my side. The beautiful retirement that we've been planning to have together is swirling around the drain hole.

I'm sorry for venting my feelings. I'm just in a bad place right now vacillating between hope and hopelessness. I don't have the strength to be a snooper and an investigator and a suspicious babysitter of my grown husband. He either wants me or he doesn't. I'm beginning to feel like I need to leave him for the sake of my own sanity.

Wow. My husband just had an emotional outburst and stomped out. We can't get past the first step in Plan A. No Contact! He is not looking forward to telling his "friend" that they can never see or talk to each other ever again.

He started getting angry with me, and I recognize that he is having OW withdrawals! Had I not read all of your posts over and over again, I would not have known what this outburst was all about. He admits that he likes the attention she gives to him, and he tells me that he's LONELY. And of course, his loneliness is all my fault. By throwing the blame on me, that takes the attention away from his own misconduct. Now he stomps out like he's the injured party?

This is just getting harder and harder!

Deb, I assure you this affair has gone on for a long time and has been physical. Men don't usually give women money unless there is more to the story. Did you get access to his bank accounts, emails, cell phone records? I bet you will see a long story there.

Do you have the strength to save your marriage? Because if you won't even snoop, there is not much we can do to help you. The OW will win your husband if you won't get aggressive.

I think I just need a couple of nights of good sleep.

X 2.

Deb, please go back and read everything that Mel has posted to you.

She posted to me too. She knew the reality of my sitch, and told me it, long before I came to terms with it myself.

I have re-read my thread now that time has passed, and I see what happened, and see that those posting to me at the start of the affair had the experience to recognise what was going on. Whereas I was blindsided and overwhelmed.

The first step a betrayed must make in combatting the affair (and it IS war) is to trust that the betrayed is not objective. The betrayed is in a fog, just as the wayward is. The betrayed insists they KNOW their spouse better than anyone here, they have loved, laughed and done all that a marriage entails. Most betrayed believe their spouse would NEVER do such a thing, would never betray, lie and deceive in such a way.

Change this thinking. The husband you knew no longer exists. The posters here know your WH better than you do. Follow the advice on how do deal with a wayward.

This post shows to me you need to snoop, gather the evidence, and expose.

Deb, good on you for having learned from MB about OW withdrawal in the short time you have been here. I'm pleased you recognise his blameshifting. Yeah, injured party... woe the wayward huh?

Hugs Deb, I just saw this.

You are fighting a battle for your marriage (if you want to fight for it that is). Ensure you keep yourself in tip-top condition. A battle weary soldier is NOT at her prime.

First thing, get yourself to a doctor. Tell your doctor of the betrayal. Discuss antidepressants's, sleeping meds, etc. Ensure you are eating. Even when you retch the food up. Eat regular snacks that you can stomach. For me, my appetite totally disappeared. I relied on family to ensure I was eating. A handful of nuts every few hours helped as well. Little but often if that is all you can stomach. Keep the fluids up (non-alcoholic that is!)

What supports do you have in real life (IRL)? You mentioned your sister... you need support through this.

Have you told your son?

I really feel exposure is key for you. To show WH the reality of his affair with a much younger woman, and for you to gain the support.

Also, please stop viewing the OW as the victim. I did this initially too, because of the age gap. But I look back to my friends and I at this age, and there is no way we would have gotten involved with an older, married man. Any young woman chasing a married man has no morals. She is desperate to win "her prize." And right now, she views her prize as your husband. He is her meal ticket.

So what sort of fight are you prepared to put up?

Aww Deb you seem like a beautiful soul!

Thank you for responding. I am recharging my batteries, trying to clear my head, and I will fight to save my marriage.

After he stomped out yesterday, I snapped myself off that emotional roller coaster. That's a ride I don't want to take. I cannot tolerate drama or anyone (let alone myself) sitting on the pity pot for too very long. I already expressed my feelings to him and told him what I want and need from him and he agreed.

I'm not going to punish him or make his homelife a living hell. He comes home to me for a reason, and I believe I should capitalize on my strengths and show him the woman he fell in love with and continues to love--and that's me.

I will get him to write that "no contact" letter, but last night was not the right time to push the issue. I don't want him scrawling it out in a fit of anger just to appease me. When he writes it, I want him to write it because it is what he wants to do.

My hubby returned home about 15 or 20 minutes after he stomped out and I diffused his anger immediately. We went from insane to sensible and went on to have a wonderful evening together.

And, right or wrong, I allowed my husband to engage in some cake-eating. I went to take a shower, and when he disrobed and joined me in the shower, I welcomed him. We washed and caressed each other and enjoyed the intimacy. Afterward we ordered Chinese food and cuddled on the couch.

Getting food in our bellies and a good night's sleep was something we both needed. I was still sleeping soundly this morning when he got up and went to work. He let me sleep in and left a note for me on the table: "I love you, my wife!"

I'm the one who nourishes his soul. He's addicted to ME! And that's one addiction that I want to encourage.

I will do the snooping and investigating and babysitting that I need to do to make sure my husband stays true to me. I just have to have faith in myself and know that 22-year-old OW can never replace me in his heart. And if for some reason he succumbs to insanity and throws me away to be with her, then he has lost the most special relationship he has ever known, or will ever know in his life.

Deb, you are truly amazing. I applaud you.

Thank you Caracal. I appreciate and drink in every post and response. I have always recognized the power of education. Never too old to learn!

I want my husband to learn and grow as a human-being. In my mind, that is what life is all about. And, just from my personal observations and recognition of his growth, I believe he is a much better person today than he was 12 years ago.

When I was a young woman, I had a doberman pincher who was the sweetest, smartest dog EVER! I took her to obedience classes and learned all the techniques to teach her to sit, lie down, heel, etc. But this training required me to use a choke collar and snap it to compel compliance with commands. And I'm trying to be objective, but my husband is not a dog. I can't tether him with a choke collar and snap him into compliance. I wouldn't want him if he was just a compliant dog who responded to my commands rather than the unique and flawed, but growing human-being that I believe he is.

If my husband is not the man I believe him to be, but is a cheater and a liar and a untrustworthy betrayer of my love . . . why would I want him? My love for him doesn't give him license to abuse me, but it does give him a second chance to learn from his mistakes (and for me to learn from my mistakes) so we can move forward to build a marriage even better than the one we had.

I will give him that chance and I will do the requisite investigation and snooping to make sure he is being true, but I won't keep him on a leash for very long. That's not the kind of life or marriage that I choose for myself. I will step up to the plate and work harder (a labor of love) to meet his emotional needs--not because I have to do so to keep him, but because I want to do so. But he can't keep me on a leash either, i.e., fearful if I don't meet his needs then he will stray. If he chooses to be a stray dog, then he will lose me.

Again, maybe my head is still in the fog, but I'm thinking about the kind of life that I want to live. I'm done with the mindset that I can't "compete" with a 22-year-old. I finally realized that this is not a competition with my husband serving as the prize for the winner. I'm already a winner! I have a son, 2 sisters, 2 brothers, and numerous nieces and nephews who love and support me unconditionally as I do them. With or without my husband, I know I have a good life.

I think my husband's emotional outburst yesterday helped to snap me back to my senses. I love my husband very much and I'm going to take things one day at a time. Who knows? Maybe I'll feel completely different tomorrow, but I hope not. I have a bit of serenity right now and feel like I'm going to be okay no matter the outcome.

Deb,

It's not about either of you being on a leash. It's about living a transparent lifestyle and being integrated with each other.

Dr. Harley told me that there are some circumstances where I can trust my H and he can trust me. And there are some circumstances where we should NOT trust each other. We have to set up our lives so that the conditions that lead to affairs are avoided.

So we do all we can to live with the conditions that make it impossible, or at least VERY difficult, for either one of us to have an affair, or for that matter, have an independent lifestyle.

When my H spent money without regard to my concerns or feelings, and I called him on it, he shared all our account info with me. I have all the passwords to everything and know what's going on in our financial world.

I also have his email passwords and he has mine. That's not being on a leash. It's being transparent.

Blind trust is ill-advised. Dr. Harley says we should NOT trust each other; rather we should "Trust, but verify." This is good for the marriage, because it keeps us accountable.

My FWH does not feel at all like a compliant dog. He is relieved that I am looking and watching, because he wants to prove that he is reliable. He doesn't perceive himself to be on a leash. He really wants to be a good husband, and transparency is a great way for him to achieve that.

I'm not going to fight today.

I have a huge project sitting on my desk, and I'm going to turn my attention to that neglected matter with renewed vigor. My marriage is important and my number one priority, but the work I've been doing is important too.

I agree LWFH. My hubby has agreed to give me full access to all financial records. He said, "I am an open book! Read every page! Come to my business, sit with me, and I will show you everything." I will check and verify and get his passwords and look at his phone records. I will purchase GPS trackers and install them on both of his vehicles. Believe me, I have spent hours and hours reading this site and educating myself. I definitely lost a lot of sleep through this turmoil, and I doubt that I have a firm grasp on everything just yet. But I'm trying, and transparency with extraordinary protection & safeguards is now a non-negotiable element of our marriage.

I just need to pull myself off that emotional roller coaster. I need to do it for my own sanity and I need to pay attention to my own work too. My plate is full and I can't let my work project be flushed down the toilet because my husband made bad choices. I have made a decision that has brought me some peace. If I discover that his addiction to OW is so strong that he cannot cease contact, if I discover that his affair with OW has not ended, then he loses me. That's not what I want, but it's the only thing that gives me peace of mind at this moment.

Deb,

Did OW actually leave town today with her mother?

Absolutely REQUIRE your H to write an NC letter. One of my big regrets is that when my H pitched a fit about writing one, I did not realize that it meant that he was hoping to continue the affair. Don't let your H weasel out of this.

You are on the right track with bank records, phones, etc.

AM

I just wanted to add, however, that it's not in my nature to be "controlling" of another human being. Our creator made us with "free will" and I would not want to turn into a nag and take my hubby's "free will" away from him. I think, in many respects, a person's own conscience should hold him/her accountable. Why should people feel compelled to do the right thing only if someone is watching? (God is always watching!)

If my husband is going to be a good person in general and a good husband to me in particular, then he should do that regardless of whether I am watching and holding him accountable. But the fact that we are married, in and of itself, means I should have access to all of his financial records. He should have no secrets from me in that department.

Nevertheless, if he is going to deceive me about his finances, I know that he can do that even if I have complete access to his records. He runs an active, successful retail business in a boom town with tons of cash sales. Where there's a will, there's a way. And that's what I mean by keeping him on a leash. It would be too exhausting for me to live in a constant state of paranoia that I have to check up on him regularly to ensure his fidelity. It's mission impossible. I'm not an overly religious person (more spiritual than religious), but I find comfort in the Serenity Prayer right now:

God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.

I don't know if OW left town, just know her free ride ends today--and if I find out otherwise, my husband will suffer the consequences. Her mother did send me a private message on facebook verifying that she was coming to town to get her daughter. My husband is not allowed to call OW, and I'm not going to call her either. I'm done with her.

Deb, no one on this thread has EVER suggested that you "control" your husband or that you nag him. Asking your husband to stop abusing you is NOT controlling him! And it is not "nagging" him. If a woman demands her husband stop beating her is she controlling him and nagging him? Because that is the principle you are promoting here.

If your husbands conscience is not holding him accountable, it is up to you to hold him accountable. That is what loving spouses do who care about their marriages.

Your comments are very troubling because they are very naive, Deb, and I am concerned that you are in for a very rough ride until you wake up and understand the gravity of your situation. I fear it is going to take the school of hard knocks to convince you to take the necessary steps to save your marriage. Your plan is one of wishful thinking and hope is not a plan.

IF you find out. You are very unlikely to find out if you refuse to snoop on him. Your husband won't suffer the conquences. It is likely this affair has gone on for some time and as yet, he has suffered no conquences. And wont in the future since you have made it clear you won't hold him accountable by taking steps to protect yourself from him.

I will bet he is playing you Deb and you will continue to be played as long as you have your rose colored glasses and kumbaya approach to marriage.

Saving a marriage IS war. It is and if you choose not to battle for it, you will be in the dark about the reality of yours.

Read up on plan A (which you are kind of doing) and plan B (which you may need to do).

Here Deb.
What Are Plan A and Plan B?

MelodyLane: Thank you for your comments. You're very much to the point and tell things like they are.

I admit naivety is one of my faults. I'm too sweet and kind and loving and gentle and understanding and softspoken and giving and forgiving for my own good. Being that way inevitably leads to being hurt. I am the proverbial "Pollyanna" and I don't know how to change who I am. I have a conscience and I naturally expect others to have one too and to choose right over wrong.

But I also admit, being the way that I am, that I've had more than my fair share of disappointments when it comes to people. That is why I don't allow many people into my life.

My stress levels have been skyrocking off the charts to the point of making me both physically and mentally ill. I'm on the verge of having a major depressive episode, so I had to put the brakes on that insane emotional roller coaster I was riding. I need to calm down for my own health and sanity.

I am following Plan A. Here are excerpts from the webpage:



I'm avoiding the use of love busters.



I have approached my husband with respect and thoughtfulness. He has acknowledged his mistake. He has agreed to never see or talk to the OW again.



My husband I have discussed the causes, and I'm going to work on meeting his most important emotional needs and he will work on meeting mine. He has agreed to transparency, his life and his business are an open book to me. He got his most recent bank statement for his business in the mail today and he copied it and sent it to me immediately. That was just the first foray into complete transparency, and there will be more to come. We want to build an affair-proof marriage.



My husband and I discussed the POJA and we're going to implement this into our marriage for everything, including his business decisions that ultimately affect both of us.


My husband and I discussed this, and we're committed to spending at least 15 hours a week together (as recommended by the website) to meet our needs for conversation, and intimacy, and recreational companionship, and love-making.


My husband and I are working on a solid plan for our marital recovery. He loves me. I believe that he loves me.

I've already worked on exposure and I will work on the snooping and investigative and transparency aspects to make sure my husband is not having any contact with OW. If my husband is lying to me or deceiving me, I will find out soon enough. If that is the case, then I will immediately move to Plan B.

I understand the gravity of my situation. I would not be so close to a complete breakdown if I did not. I just can't allow myself to go insane during this process, because if that happens, I have not only lost my husband--I will have lost myself too.

Carrot and Stick of Plan A

Hi Reading: Maybe my husband is "playing" with me, and telling me what I want to hear to get me off his back so he can continue to cheat on me behind my back. And if he is not the man I believe him to be, if he is "playing" me for a fool, then I don't want him.

I have such a hard time believing that my beloved husband would play me for a fool. Other than my brothers and sisters (who along with my husband are my closest and dearest friends) and their families, I don't allow very many people in my life. I have truly learned through the school of hard knocks that there are users and abusers around every corner! My rose-colored glasses were knocked off a long time ago.

I am who I am though. I can't change me. I can't condemn the whole human race either, because people have disappointed me in the past. I want to believe that most people have a conscience, will hold themselves accountable, and will choose to do the right thing. Even so, I will trust but verify as all of you have strongly recommended.

I've had the pleasure of knowing my husband for twelve years, and I have seen an abundance of good in him. I could make a list a mile long of all the good and kind and altruistic things he has done for others. His account in my love bank has always been overflowing. He's a good man. Either that, or he has put on one heck of a charade to fool me for years and years.

So I recognize that he might be playing me for a fool, but my life experience with him up until now informs me that this probability is very small.

I think I'm being a good warrior, capitalizing on my strengths, while protecting my own health and well-being. I do think I should probably make an appointment and get anti-depressants. I need a clear head, but have never taken anti-depressants before. Can anyone give me insight on that issue?

Thank you for this link! Very informative and helpful.


Pepperband wrote:


This truly resonates with me. In the immediate aftermath of the grenade, I was so overwhelmed and pushed to my emotional brink of disaster. When my husband had his emotional outburst, I knew that I had to stop the insanity or I would be destroyed.

And I am asking, "who the heck am I . . . and . . . who the heck are you?"

If my husband is not the person whom I believe him to be, why would I want him?

Just a clarification, there is always room for improvement. I can eliminate my "bad habits" and work on meeting my husband's emotional needs. I can change the dynamic of my relationship with my husband and build a better marriage. But there are certain things that make up the core personality of each individual that are just part of who they are. I don't want to lose my kindness and compassion towards others even though I've been hurt. I want to strive to learn and to become a better version of the real me. In that regard, I guess I can indeed "change me."

Deb, but can you accept that he has already done this? And here you are telling us you do want him. Your words don't match your actions and this is why you have so many people pointing out to you that you are headed for trouble.

You posted Plan A methods, but I would point out that Plan A is for an ongoing affair. Are you saying that your H's affair is still active?

Most marriages do not recover from affairs. They limp along in a crippled state of the pre-affair marriage and are more vulnerable after an affair than before. Yours doesn't have to be like that if you follow this program. If the affair is truly ended, as you say it is, then you should be following Dr Harley's program of RECOVERY [not Plan A]- here is a good summary:

Dear Deb:

My husband had no intention of "playing me for a fool." He had no intention of leaving me for the OW, whose life was a mess. He wanted me for one purpose, and her for another.

When he deceived me, it was just so he could keep his life set up the way he had it - me at home for domestic support, financial support and "sure thing" low-effort sex; her at work for admiration, conversation, an attractive partner and the excitement of the "chase."

He had compartmentalized his life, and deception was necessary to "keep us in our boxes."

No malicious forethought - just pure selfishness.

BV

I understand that you're saying my husband has already played me for a fool when he went and got the OW and put her up in a motel at our expense.

I know my husband has hurt me by doing that, and he admitted his mistake. And where do we go from there?

My husband tells me that he loves me, he has agreed to have no contact with OW, and wants to work on building a better marriage. I believe he is sincere. But is he playing me for a fool at this point?

I am willing to forgive his transgression with OW and work on our marriage IF he earns my forgiveness by keeping his promises of no contact, complete transparency, etc. I want to believe his words and his promises, but all of you have made it clear that his words are meaningless. I must verify.

During this verification process, if I find that he was not sincere in the things he told me, but is lying to me and continuing to have contact with OW, then I will contact my lawyer and file for divorce.

I might not be using the right words, but that's where I'm at right now in my thinking. Because he had an overflowing account in my love bank prior to this transgression, I believe he deserves a second chance. Maybe I am a fool, but believe I married a good man who made a mistake and who wants to make amends.



My husband agreed to no further contact with OW. Other than my husband's word, right now, I have no personal knowledge whether this affair is over or still active. I was advised not to accept my husband's word, but to do snooping, investigative work, gps tracking, and the like.

At what point do we move from Plan A to Recovery? Do we start on recovery even though I have not yet verified through independent means, snooping, etc., that the affair is truly over?

I ordered books, HNHN, LB, and 5 Steps to Romantic Love. We are going to read through these books together.

I'm trying to do this the right way, and I may not use the right words or totally understand what step I'm at in the MB program--but I appreciate all of your help! It's keeping me sane! Thank you so much!

I will have to find your thread and read more about your situation. Were you able to work through this?

Deb,

Start with the book "Surviving an Affair". Also, watch Dr. Harley's 30 minute video about affairs. Words don't matter, but actions do.

Did your husband write a no contact letter, to be approved and mailed by you? If he refuses or does so grudgingly, then he has no plan of no contact for life. The door is open to continue with this OW. I think the last I read was that your husband got very emotional about this, but did not write a letter. I wish I had realized that, when my husband didn't want to write the NC letter, that he intended to keep a relationship with OW.

He must also tell you the entire truth about what he has been doing. You do know there is more than what he has told you.

Steps to recovering from an affair:

1. The WS agrees to no contact with other person FOR LIFE.
2. There is complete transparency, especially changing the conditions that made the affair possible. Neither spouse should be able to have a secret, second life.
3. Build a passionate marriage, meeting each other's top emotional needs. Become each other's favorite recreational companions, have intimate conversation, be affectionate and meet each other's sexual needs.

AM

Ask to see his credit card bills for the past five years (since he met her).

Ask him to take a polygraph and get checked for STDs.

If he won't even admit he has been sexual with her........you will need to, even in Plan A, treat it as though he has been.

Waywards lie. They are not honest. They tell fibs. They just do.

Deb. does this hit home with you? Here is a link to the entire article:

Can't We Just Forgive and Forget?


Your WH needs to EARN back your trust and forgiveness. He redeems himself by becoming completely transparent and living his life in a way that protects you and your marriage.

You need to snoop and verify NC. This helps you to feel safe to see and verify that WH has now become who he says he is. Think of your WH as an addict right now. He needs your help to break this addiction.

Please re-read this, Deb:

Deb.

Do NOT underestimate the predatory nature of an OW...especially some homeless 22 yr old looking for a meal ticket. Your WH may seem to be on board ...but the addiction is very strong. My own FWH caved when OW continued to pursue him.

Your WH needs to get a new cell phone number, and e-mail. OW needs to be blocked including the office phone.

Ask OW Mother for help in keeping her daughter away from your husband. I would also send her a copy of the NC letter handwritten by your WH to dispel any doubts that she may have over the severity of the situation.

Take control of the wheel here. Set your WH up to succeed. He will thank you once he comes out of the fog.

Then what do you need anti-depressants for?

I was a good man, for 6+ years of dating and over 16 years of marriage ... until I got sloppy about my boundaries and started spending time & exchanging conversation & confidences with a woman to whom I never should've given the time of day.

I'd always been a boy-scout. Our life-experience together told my wife that she had nothing to worry about. Once, when it was still "just" an EA, my wife voiced a suspicion to me. I denied that anything was wrong. And she believed me, because her life-experience, and the experience of our 22 years together, led her to give me the benefit of the doubt.

You're depressed about something more than the weather. Yes, I may be wrong, and yes, on this website you've got an anecdotal, self-selected audience that is heavily skewed toward the share of the population that has either suffered from, or engaged in, affairs in their marriages. But don't give your experience any benefit of the doubt over what your eyes & ears tell you today. Every man who's having his first affair is a man who never had one before.

Deb, what you don't understand is that the man who had this affair is not your husband as you know him. He is an alien. You know your husband; WE know the wayward mind. Your husband is under the spell of an addiction to this OW. It is because of this that WE know your husband better than you do - as he is now.

My husband has not written the "no contact" letter. I sent a private message to OW's mother to discover if mother did in fact come and get OW on Saturday. I will ask my husband to write the "no contact" letter and evaluate his emotional response to my request. If he is enthusiastic about doing so, and actually does it, then I will take possession of the letter and figure out how to get it to her. Hopefully, her mother will cooperate and provide her mailing address.


He was engaged in trickle truth-telling, so I can't know for sure if I have the entire truth about what he has been doing. I just have a huge knot in my gut about requesting a polygraph, perhaps because I want to move forward with my husband and build an affair-proof marriage.

This is a struggle for me. Will knowing every sordid detail about every contact he has ever had with OW in the past really help me to heal? I have absolutely no desire to torture myself or put images in my head of him with her that can never be erased. I want to leave the past in the past and start with a clean slate, i.e., it's what YOU, my dear husband, do from this day forward that counts!

I started reading threads and posts about brokenvase's situation last night, and every single revelation was like a knife being twisted in her heart. I'm reflecting on all of BV's well-written posts describing her emotional journey, and forgive me BV, but I don't want to walk in your shoes. I don't think I'm a strong person.

How much "truth" is good enough? He had an affair. Whether it was an emotional affair or a physical affair or whether it was a ONS or long-term . . . an affair is an affair is an affair, and that is BAD. Knowing the details doesn't make it MORE bad, or LESS bad. Knowing the details would only serve to torture me and put images in my head that I don't want to have in my head.

So, I'm struggling with the merits of knowing every painful detail. Do I really need to know if my husband's lips softly kissed OW's lips? Do I really need to know if my husband caressed OW's breasts? I'm struggling here on this requirement that he must tell me the "entire truth." I need additional guidance in this area.

You won't be moving forward UNLESS you get the full truth. You don't have to know each and every sordid detail, but you need to know the basic facts. You won't be "leaving the past in the past" if the OW and her lover have secrets to which you are not privy. This is why the full truth is the first step.

I agree it is tempting to sweep it all under the rug and pretend like it never happened, but that is not how it works. As long as you don't know, you will wonder and wonder until your resentment grows and festers. And then you will find yourself in a position in 6 to 8 months where you are STUCK and can't get unstuck until you get the truth. Just get it done now so you CAN move forward.

So if you are serious about recovery, get the full truth NOW so you can move forward.


Not knowing is what will torture you. Of course it will hurt. We are not saying it won't hurt. But it will hurt WORSE if you are left to wonder.

You need to decide the level of detail you need yourself, but you do need a certain level of detail in order to understand the PICTURE. Such as when they slept together and where. HOW they communicated. How this began.. If he gave her any gifts, etc. Did he have any pet names? You need to get enough so you have a full understanding. He needs to paint you a picture.

Deb,

To reinforce the point, unknowns will kill you emotionally. The LEVEL of detail is, as Melody said, up to you.

The father of one hero "kid" that was killed in Aurora said yesterday that the 10 hours of waiting was worse than knowing that his son was gone. He wanted to know the circumstances, and said publically that the details (his terms) of his son's death brought him peace and the ability to even begin to cope. What this father wanted was the truth. We can't heal without it, truly.

You need truth, my friend. The details are up to you.

I am a flawed person--a chronic "sweep things under the rug" kind of gal. I usually crumble under the weight of drama. I'm a passive peacekeeper! I have been doing this my entire marriage. On those few occasions when I have tried to stand up to my husband, he transforms from that loving, smiling, can I get you anything kind of guy into a spoiled child who has emotional outbursts and temper tantrums.

He started doing his spoiled child routine tonight, and I confronted him on his modus operandi. I told him that his raised voice and his emotional outbursts shut me down emotionally. So please stop. We were discussing the issue of our finances and how I have given him 99.9999 percent control over all of our money.

I pulled up our joint bank account and pointed out to him the thousands and thousands of dollars he blown through in a short amount of time. He is going to the bank several times a week taking huge cash withdrawals. The next thing I know, he's throwing a major temper tantrum.

He started deflecting by yelling about my sister and how she is never welcome in HIS house ever again because she should never had gone to his parents' house and told them about OW. He even texted my sister and stated she was _________ (long string of really bad names)!

Next thing happens my sister tries to call him, and he hung up on her and shut his phone off. Then my sister called me and told me about the offensive text, and I confronted hubby. It is unacceptable for him to take out his anger on my sister! I will not allow him to control me through an effort to alienate my family members and to isolate me from my family support system. It won't happen!

Next thing my sister shows up at our door and my husband yelled at me NOT to let her in, that she was NOT welcome in HIS house! Nonsense! We're going to resolve this right now. My sister came in the house and they started YELLING. I was frantic! Separate corners, please!

Then my brother called. My sister called my brother and let him know she was on her way to my house to confront my husband. I told him she was already here! I told him that we would work this out, my husband crossed a boundary, and he needed to face the consequences.

My brother wanted to call the police. OMG! No, no, no! I don't want the police at my house! This is not going to get violent. We're not violent people, we've never been violent. We're going to work through this! My brother demanded that I call him every 5 minutes or he would assume violence was occurring and would call the police!

This is insane!

My husband threw a temper tantrum. He sent an ugly text to my sister. I told him to please grow up! Are you done with the proverbial throwing yourself down on the floor kicking and screaming? This is OUR house and my sister is welcome here anytime she wants to come over! PERIOD. You sent an ugly text and now you need to face the consequences and apologize. PERIOD. It's embarrassing to be exposed, but you brought this on yourself. PERIOD.

I have never stood up to my husband like that before, but he was trying to insert a wedge between me and my family members. They all love me fiercely, as I them, and his tactic will not work. So don't go there!

Anyway. When the dust settled, my husband left the house and stated he was going to his place of business. He said he needed space.

All I could think about when going through this is what I've been saying on this discussion forum. I married a good man. Now I have to amend that statement. I married an overgrown child! A spoiled rotten child who apparently needs some discipline! I feel now like I've been slumbering through my entire marriage and just got the biggest wake-up call ever.

Is this a typical scenario? Anyway, I told my sister that I love my husband and we're going to work through this but we're obviously going to have to endure growing pains.

This post puts things in perspective, somewhat.

I read a post on another thread where someone noted that his/her grandma always said, "The Jews at Auschwitz would love to have your problems."

My problems are so small in comparison to other people's problems. My problems have arisen in my marriage,in large part, due to my own conflict-avoidance behaviors. I think my husband takes advantage, knowing if he has an emotional outburst, then I will back off immediately to keep peace and harmony in our household. I want us to discuss our issues like grown ups!

Maybe I need to videotape an episode of one of my great-nephews throwing a temper tantrum, show it to my husband, and ask him if this is his way of building a better, affair-proof marriage. Because, if it is, this tactic is not working for me right now.

As my husband was standing at the door declaring that he was leaving to go to his business because he needed space, I asked him where OW is right now? I have no confirmation that she actually left town. He tossed his cell phone on the table and said, here, keep this, rest assured I won't be making any calls. "Born yesterday" sitting here knows that he has telephones at his place of business, but I can appreciate the dramatic gesture. Well, of course, now I'm snooping through my husband's cell phone. And I'm going over the details of our day.

My husband and I had not spent our day together. He allegedly had a business commitment to deliver a cargo-trailer full of merchandise (beds and dressers) to a customer in another town who was setting up a boarding house for influx of workers. My husband hired a man to help him load and unload. Husband told me hired man's name and stated he was a good worker, didn't drink or party, but liked to gamble. That was an interesting tidbit of information. Likes to gamble.

Prior to taking this trip, my husband said he would take the long way there to avoid traveling through X town--the town where he had picked up other woman. What difference does that make, I wondered, since OW's mother lives in the complete opposite direction. Isn't OW now staying with her mother, that is, if everything panned out the way it was supposed to pan out? Why would my hubby make sure that I knew his trip would be a lot shorter if only he drove through X town, but he wouldn't do that in order to give me peace of mind. As far as I knew, OW would not be in X town on Sunday.

At 5:25 PM, my husband called me to let me know he was in X town. (What happened to the alleged plan to go the long way and avoid X town?) He said he was sitting outside the casino at X town waiting for hired man who wanted to do some gambling. Oh really? Yes, that makes sense because hired man has gambling problem. Yes. Hubby said that he gave hired man a half hour to gamble, and he was waiting for hired man in parking lot. He said he didn't want to go inside casino because that is where OW's former BF worked.

I was suspicious that he was calling me because maybe he checked my internet history, found this forum, and read that I was going to put gps trackers on his vehicles. Was he trying to come up with a plausible reason, therefore, for being in X town on Sunday? (I was suspicious earlier about this possibility because I posted about financial transparency and his business records, and about two minutes later he sent me a photo of his business bank statement. Coincidence?)

Had he driven OW to X town with our cargo trailer to load up her stuff? and was hired man sent into the casino to keep an eye on OW's boyfriend while my hubby and OW were getting her stuff? Why would my hubby find it necessary, when describing hired man, to tell me that he liked to gamble? Because that would certainly explain an impromptu stop at the casino in X town for hired man to get a 30 minute gambling fix.

I think my husband was up to something. Do you think so too?

I wonder now if my hubby drained our personal bank account because he plans to get rid of me!

Deb,

Sorry there was so much drama. This is pretty typical of someone in an active affair.

Yes, your husband is definitely up to something. Yeah, your husband is emptying your bank account to set homeless, skanky OW up with someplace to live. Yep, he helped her move in, while lieing to you about what he was doing. Nope, her mother is not coming to fetch OW because OW has your H to look after her. I imagine OW mother has been told to ignore your questions and messages. Yep, your husband spent the day with OW.

The tactic your husband used by discussing your sister is called "gaslighting". All discussion started to revolve around your sister. Waywards do it frequently to divert attention from the conduct of their affair. To me, it's sort of like watching one of those movies in which the devil-possessed character's head spins and they puke green.

The steps to bust up an affair are to Plan A (carrot and stick) for about three weeks. Expose the affair to friends, family, co-workers (if applicable). After about three weeks, if the husband does not agree to end the affair, women should go into Plan B. I think you should be preparing for Plan B, getting your finances in order and identifying an intermediary.

Do you think you can plan A for a couple of weeks while you get ready? It means no lovebusting of any kind and making your home an inviting place to be.

Sorry. I was really hoping that OW would be far away by now.

Have you talked you your husband's parents? It seems as though your sister made a direct hit on the affair when she told H's parents about the affair. Will they talk to your H and put pressure on to end the A?


AM

I will agree

he is acting like a typical WAYWARD spouse.

The drama is him trying to capture control of his two lives again. He had it until you decided to woman up and clarify it is unacceptable to you, his wife.

You have a long haul ahead of you. All betrayed spouses do.

You are not so unique in how you live your life. How you have handled things in your marriage nor even how you approach things in general. That would be a good place for you to begin in understanding in order to be bravely moving forward with this.

Sometimes though we need to know we are uniquely ourselves, we are not special in experience and we can use that knowledge to help with the horrible situations we experience in life........infedelity being one of them. No one deserves being betrayed by their beloved but it happens in even the most magical marriages so often. Sadly, if any person spends any time alone with someone of the opposite gender and crosses lines of conversation (needs starting to be met), etc with them..........affairs begin.

I wonder now if my hubby drained our personal bank account because he plans to get rid of me!

I would suggest that your supposition is close, but not spot on.

Wayward-inclined men view their partners differently than would women on the prowl. When it comes down to it, women see the options with their partners as an "or" proposition, as in "I can have OM, OR BH." Men see the same situation as an "and" opportunity, rendered, "I can have BW at home AND OW on the side."

WH is more likely NOT planning to "get rid" of you, but just arranging things to his benefit should you decide to "get rid" of him.

This fine delineation is of less import than the action to be recommended. Since they made the rules, and therefore are the only skilled players of the game, you must contact one of the group of folks known as "lawyers". TODAY! It may well be that the level of fund extraction is large enough that a restraining order on the marital assets is necessary.

Deb, could it be that your husband is the one with the gambling problem ???? Do you have a way to check this out ? I'm not saying he isn't giving money to this OW, but...waywards lie about everything.

No, my husband does not have a gambling problem. He has a drinking too much mountain dew problem that revs up his hyperactivity and smoking too much pot problem to calm down his hyperactivity. I do not smoke pot. I rarely drink alcohol (and on those rare occasions only a few sips). I probably drink too much coffee. My husband's smoking gives him an excuse to go see a "buddy" that will have a smoke with him. That's not anything I want to share with him.

OW drinks and smokes. The day she called my husband at his place of business and talked to him for ten minutes, she told him that she had went to the bar at the mall near the motel the previous evening, by herself, to have a few drinks. What sane woman cognizant of the dangers does that? I don't understand.

I don't want to rail against women, but there are circumstances that simply exist in our society that make it very unwise for a woman to walk into a bar by herself and start drinking.

Yes, I have talked to his parents. My mother-in-law told me that my husband is lonely. She told me to make it work. I am respectful to his parents, but keep my distance for many reasons. I know my husband vents to them about me and I don't like what I hear when it trickles back to me.

MIL gave my sister an earful the other day listing all of my faults. My sister defended me, but what's the point? It wouldn't matter if I was the best wife in the whole world, I would never be good enough for her son. All I know for sure is MIL is allergic to cats so I keep 3 of them on duty at all times. MIL doesn't come over for visits.

I don't think my relationship with MIL is good enough to be able to enlist her efforts in a productive manner.

I called him at work and he agreed to make a substantial deposit into our joint account. I will be fine financially, I was just in a bit of a panic trying to figure out what he was doing. My imagination was working overtime and I haven't been eating and sleeping in a healthy manner. I wake up, things are swirling in my head, I get up and put coffee on, and then I post on this board seeking help. But what you wrote made a lot of sense to me. If my husband truly wanted to get rid of me, I think he would be throwing money at me and screaming--get the heck out!--rather than depleting our account and making it difficult for me to leave (at least in the short-term). I don't want to leave our house.

Deb,


Waywards never throw money at their spouses, screaming for them to get out. All you have to do is read a couple of "People" magazines at the hair salon to figure out that waywards, even the ones with loads of money, want to have everything, including money.

There are countless women on this forum who have lost everything due to their husband's scheming. The women believed their H would never harm them. The WH starts out being nice, then takes more and more out of the bank, until there is nothing left.

I actually think your husband wants you both. He is setting young slutty woman up in a nice little love shack. But she will want more and more.

So, Deb, what is your PLAN???? Is your husband home at all?

AM

Deb. He is acting like a typical wayward. He wants both of you. That is HIS plan...to have two women.


So far his plan is working quite nicely for him. He gets you to back off by throwing crumbs and manipulating you with anger and gaslighting.


He will carry on with this plan until he sees that you are "serious" about NOT accepting this. The insanity will stop once you get serious. Give WH your list of conditions to keep YOU in this marriage while doing a stellar Plan A. Get ready for plan B.

Do not accept a third person in your M.

((((hugs))))

Money into a joint account?

How about him agreeing to money in an account solely under your name.

Bat eyes and say sweet as honey on a warm spoon
"It would help me feel less insecure to have it in my name only......so I am sure it will be there. Thanks honey."

Hi Deb, I've been offline for a few days and am just catching up. You have some of the wisest MB'ers posting to you.

How are you doing? Are you taking care of yourself? Have you gone to a doctor, even if just to discuss the effect this is having on your health and what options are available for you should you need them?

Deb, let us know what your plan is... what conditions have you set for your WH? How is your Plan A holding up? Has WH written the NC letter?

Give us an update.

And hugs to you. Being betrayed ain't easy. Take care of yourself.

Plan: Read and reread this thread, drink in and process all the information that all of you have provided, continue to educate myself, continue to read articles on MB website, and read the books that I ordered when they arrive. I want to have a very good grasp of the MB program so that I can utilize it to build a better marriage.

I'm digging right now to uncover the ENTIRE truth.

OW's mother responded to my last PM on facebook. She said she understood how I feel because her first husband (OW's father) left her for a 24 year old woman after 18 years of marriage. OW's mother said she would talk to her daughter and remind her how painful it was when she discovered her husband's affair. She told me that OW did not have romantic feelings for my husband, but she did not confirm that OW was now living with her. I responded and asked OW's mother to tell me the truth about OW's location.

My husband comes home every day after work. We talk and I try to make it pleasant for him, but did not succeed on Tuesday morning. He asked to talk to me before he went to work, reassured me that he was making a substantial deposit to our joint account before going to work, and then our discussion went downhill and got a little heated.

Although he tells me he has not talked to OW, he told me that he thinks she is now staying with another one of her male friends in his apartment here in town. I confronted him about the inconsistency in his statements. If you have not talked to her, how can you possibly think now that she is still in town, when you previously told me that her mother was coming to get her and take her out of town? I asked him if he was the "male friend" putting her up in the apartment and he denied doing so claiming that he could not afford to do something like that. He claimed all of his cash withdrawals were for other purposes, not to set up a love shack for OW.

My immediate plan is snooping and investigative work. I'm also going to set up a private bank account. I have an asset that I'm going to liquidate now so that I have a chunk of cash set aside as a safety net.

Long run, my plan is to save our relationship and work with my husband to build a better marriage.

I also confirmed that the deposit was made by viewing account data online; and my husband brought home deposit slip after work.

Deb,

What spying tools do you have in place?

A VAR in his vehicle? A GPS on his vehicle? Spyware on his phone?

Great, but recognise that you will not get this from WH. He is wayward. I have even read on MB of waywards confronted with hard evidence, and still denying.


I interpret this as OW TOLD her mother she does not have feelings for your WH. And with her mother's past, she will not admit it. I think you have thrown a huge grenade at the A though, so well done. OW will likely now have to hide her A from her mother. She will be worried. Word of caution though Deb... blood is thicker than water. This mother may have offered support, but at the end of the day, she is likely to believe and side with her daughter. Be careful on revealing your sources to her.


Okay Deb, I know you want the truth. But you need to change your thinking here. WH is not going to give it to you. Bill Clinton didn't give it, not until the world had DNA evidence. So stop asking him for truth, and find it yourself. You know his story does not make sense. I know that feeling, of being lied to but WANTING to believe because trusting our spouses has become a habit. Almost a reflex. You need to control your knee-jerk reaction of wanting to believe. You know he is wayward. Never believe a wayward.

Right now, your H is wayward, so you are not working with him. The A is your enemy, and you need to fight it so you can get your WH on board with recovery. You can not recover your marriage with an active wayward. My take on your view is that you want to POJA your WH into recovery. A wayward is NOT likley to be enthusiastic about committing to MB concepts.

Has your WH written the NC letter yet? This is key. It will show if he is prepared to end the A so recovery can begin.

I think my husband may be monitoring this forum, so I don't want to say.

Note to my hubby whom I love very much: If you are monitoring this forum, that's okay and know that the truth always comes out . . . so if you're still keeping secrets, just tell me so we can move forward! You told me, you feel it in your heart that you love me more than any other person in the world, and I feel the same about you! Again, I'm willing to meet all of your emotional needs and make you a happy man if you get OW out of our lives forever and commit to a solid plan to recover our marriage!

"So stop asking him for truth, and find it yourself"

Okay. I understand. And, I think I'm going to go on a 'truth-seeking mission' right now (while my hubby is sleeping) and find out if one of my suspicions is correct. Will report back in about a half an hour.

No, he has not written NC letter. I'm still trying to uncover truth about OW's location, so I don't know where to send a letter right now.

You posted this on 22 July:

And this today:
So WH has still not written a NC letter. Her location does not matter. Watch his actions. Ask him and see what he does.

Ask him to write it regardless. Say you will take care of sending it to OW. You have sources. You can get it to her, even indirectly if necessary (although by all means try directly). FB? Her mother?

Seriously Deb, does this strike you as hat in hand repentant? Full of remorse, willing to do whatever it takes to recover your marriage? Three days, tell us what has your WH has DONE to show he is wanting to recover your marriage?

ACTIONS NOT WORDS.

Right now, it seems your WH is talking the talk but not walking the walk.

Whilst you are running around doing all of the work for recovery.

Your tasks right now are not trying to force recovery. Your tasks are:

Snoop and verify.
Expose more if necessary.
Plan A.
Set conditions for recovery.
Set up your Plan B in case WH does meet your conditions.
And if WH still does not meet your conditions, implement and follow Plan B.

Well said.

And do not argue with him.

AM

Deb, you need to hire a PI ASAP. I suspect your husband has set her up in a love nest and is meeting her there. A PI could uncover this very quickly and get pictures. Stop reading and start being a better snooper! Time is of the essence. The long this goes uncovered, the more entrenched it becomes.

Deb. You understand that he is just throwing you crumbs to confuse and appease you.


More crumbs. Just words. What do his ACTIONS tell you? Deb my FWH was full of tears and love for me after D-Day #1. To this day I believe that he was sincere. What I overlooked was the power of the addiction and the lengths that OW would go to keep my WH under her control. 3 months later I found that the A was still on and now DEEPLY entrenched. They had just got smarter in hiding it.



Stop listening to anything your WH says. This is not your husband. This is an addict. Don't lose sight of the fact that your OW is a homeless 22 yr old looking for a meal ticket. She is not going away without a fight. Don't let her steal your H and your life.



I think you stand a good chance in saving your M if you can find the strength to stand up and fight. Let your WH know that you want a loving and passionate marriage and are willing to work on recovery once WH will commit to NC and take a poly. That is what it will take to keep you interested.

Call an attorney and find out your rights and options.
Hire a PI.
Prepare for Plan B in case you need it. A good Plan B requires time to set up.



My own FWH turned himself around once I got serious and demanded that it end. I was done playing games and FWH saw that he was about to lose it all.

Why would he be monitoring this site if he was on the up and up?



Mr. Deb. You are going to lose everything most important to you. You will be left with a homeless 22yr old just looking for a free ride. Why would you throw away everything you have for some cheap woman who is a liar and cheat with no qualms about destroying someone else's life for her own benefit? That is not love...it is evilness at it finest. Good luck with that.

It is your choice. Think long and hard about the path you have embarked on.

It always amazes me how people can forgive even the most heinous crimes once they see a sincerely remorseful and repentant person. What people cannot forgive is continued lies and deceit. That is despicable.

Stop hurting your beautiful wife and tell her the truth about everything. The truth will set you free.

Refusal to write no contact letter = affair continuing = no commitment to the marriage

Time to actually DO something about it.

AM

Call an attorney and find out your rights and options. Hire a PI.

Kiddo, you have now gotten each of these pieces of advice from two posters. Unless you have serious experience dealing with fighting the effects of infidelity, I would urge you to rely more on our judgment and less on your instinct.

You are operating under a huge (but common) misconception. You believe that the current situation is one in which you and WH would operate as allies in this struggle. You cannot be more wrong. You and he are adversaries right now. What he wants, you DON'T want. He wants to make nicey-nicey with you on immaterial details, and your best strategy is to make this a roaring battle-royale.

Let me give you my guess at the third player's goal right now. She will be planning to get WH's bun in her 22 year-old oven ASAP, and ride the gravy-train indefinitely. Your starting legal action BEFORE her rabbit dies may help shield your portion of the marital assets from her claims.

Let me reiterate - There is nothing romantic, affectionate, nor tender about your relationship with WH right now. An active affair is not "niced" to its death.

Several posters have written about the motivation and plans of this young OW.

Truth is, we don't know her motivation or plans, and we won't know her motivations or plans. Maybe she is just young, looking for love and thinks she found her "soul mate."

Doesn't matter.

But what we DO know is that she is caught up in affair, and the addictive properties of affairs affect the single partners as well as the married partners.

Even if she wants to end the affair, it's unlikely she will, as the addictive properties will draw her back in, just as they draw in guilty waywards who fully intend to end their affairs.

Since we DO know that "addicts" are selfish, we can fully expect her to act as selfishly as a wayward.

Financial loss to the betrayed spouse and the birth of an OC are likely outcomes of selfish behavior.

BV

brokenvase.

First you say this:


Then you say this which confirms what the "several other posters" have mentioned.

Your post and its intent is confusing.



We do know that OW is fine with a married man putting her up in a hotel without his wife's knowledge. That says a lot about her character and motivation. Why are you painting her as an innocent misguided nymph? I think her true colors are very clear.

Deb,

Will you hire a PI?

Those thousands of dollars went somewhere, and there's likely one less vacant apartment in your area as we speak.

So, will you hire a PI?

Sorry.

The only point I wanted to make is that it is a waste of time to think about the motivations and plans of the OW.

Is she cunning and malicious? Confused and broken? Does she want money and a tricked-out apartment, or does she want love and protection? We don't know and IT DOESN'T MATTER. Jennifer Chalmers taught me this.

All we do know and all we need to know is that she is an affair partner caught up in an addictive experience, and as such, will act as such.

Selfishly.

This the only motivation that matters, as it is the only motivation we can know.

Financial loss for the betrayed spouse and pregnancy for the affair partner are likely outcomes of selfish behavior.

We can predict these outcomes because we understand the mechanics of affairs, not because we can read the mind of the affair partner.

Hope this is clearer -

BV

brokenvase. My confusion is not with your argument in selfish behaviours of waywards. You explained it very well.

My confusion is with your statement that:

Given the facts here, I am confused why you would paint OW in a positive light and almost validate OW behaviour as just innocent and misguided. I can't figure out why you would say that. How is that helpful to deb who is already in denial about the severity of the situation?

Main Entry: fa�ce�tious
Function: adjective
1 : joking or jesting, often inappropriately WAGGISH <just being facetious>

I thought this was obvious; apparently not.

The perils of written communication.

My apologies.

BV

Ah brokenvase. I clearly did not pick up on the sarcasm. My apologies also. Peace !



I remember in my own denial that I would grasp at anything to avoid the reality of my own situation. Deb. Do not make the mistakes that I made and rely on Plan Hope...that only brought me more heartache. Take control of your life.

BV, thanks for your clarification. I was also confused when I read your comments.

Like pokerface, I have great concern that this OW will get pregnant if this affair is not killed and killed SOON. She has enormous motivation to do so.

WH told me OW called him at work today. He engaged in conversation because he wanted to know how SHE was doing. He said she is getting back with her boyfriend and they are flying to Florida to take a romantic cruise.

I asked him to write her a no contact letter. He said he didn't know where to send it, and I informed him not to worry about that, I would get it to her. He refused and has now withdrawn from me and is hiding out in the bedroom. Actions do speak louder than words.

I know all of my rights via the laws of my state. I have a family law attorney. I have snoops/investigation in place.

Actions not only speak louder than words...

but his words (story about her plans to leave and reunite with a boyfriend) are completely meaningless....even if any truth is part of it.

I showered and put a towel around myself. I then opened the door to the bedroom, walked in a few steps, and asked him if he was okay. He stated he just wanted this to end, and I said that was easy. I would print a sample "No contact" letter from the internet, he could use that for a sample, he could write the letter and I would send it to her via private message on her FB account. Easy thing to do.

I revealed the carrot. I showed him the goodies and asked him if wanted me. He asked me to crawl in bed with him. I told him that he could have his cake and eat it at home. All he had to do was write the no contact letter. He still won't do it. This is the first time in 12 years he has ever rejected an opportunity to have sex with me. In my nicest voice, I said I was leaving him alone to think about things.

This is normal stuff.


Regarding a no contact letter..... he needs to send her the letter. You don't send it.

You are with him, in his presence when/if he does. Ideally, it is sent via actual old fashioned snail mail. Not facebook messaging.

His affair has not ended. I doubt she has a boyfriend and suspect he has her set up in a love pad at his expense. He is telling you lies to keep you off balance.

I predict this is going to have to get really bad before you put a stop to it, Deb. It will take the school of hard knocks.

Did you read my post about hiring a PI? You need to know where they are meeting up every day. Like I said, I suspect he has lodged in a love pad.

Deb - pleeeeeeeease listen to Melody.

Your husband is telling you OW is back with her boyfriend to throw you off the trail. That is supposed to make you feel less threatened.

Your husband has had enough financial control to set up a whole secret life that you know nothing about.

You need to get educated fast about his activities. Get on the Operation Investigate forum here and learn about voice activated recorders and GPS trackers. Do not alert him to your suspicions.

WD, I'm pretty sure I got the chronology right, but correct if needed. Then print it out and get WH to initial it.

- OW is in an abusive relationship. WH rescued her as a "friend".
- OW had no money, so WH installed her in a hotel as a "friend".
- After exposure, Momma was coming to get OW and take her home this weekend.
- WH was unable to contact OW; Momma probably took her home.

- Now, today, OW, who had no money, was being abused by BF, and was supposed to have been dragged home by Momma, is booked on a romantic cruise with said BF.

Kiddo, the silver lining behind this mess could be that if this is the first time WH has ever looked so amazingly stupid in his stated positions, it's highly likely he'd been faithful to you until this episode.

Wow, the fog is thick for your WH. So thick, he expects you to buy that he is such a nice guy, he had a conversation with OW when his marriage is on the line.

Yeah. Right.

Deb, I am so glad to see some of your betrayed fog has lifted. The reality of your sitch is starting to sink in. Make sure you keep taking action.

Deb, sad to say, but I think Melody has captured your sitch.

Your WH is trying to throw you off with talk of a boyfriend.

His reluctance to write the NC letter shows the truth. Actions, not words.

I expect in the next couple of days, WH might agree to write this letter. Having had the chance to tell OW that he is writing it but does not mean it. That you somehow are holding something over his head to make him do it.

Please start protecting yourself financially. Thanks to this thread, I took an initial step that has saved me. I wish I had taken more, because I am still disadvantaged compared to WH. What I have, I owe to the advice here, otherwise in my BS fog I would have allowed WH to take it all.

OW are predatory by nature... otherwise why pursue a married man? Especially at a young age? If they are prepared to pursue a married man, know they are selfish. They will look out for themselves at all costs.

Deb, start looking out for YOU. Because by doing this, you are also looking out for WH who is, right now, addicted to a predator.

My snoops have revealed that my husband was browsing travelosity looking at rates for cruises sailing out of Florida.

Don't reveal any of your sources or intel to him Deb. Wait and see what he says / does.

So that should show you the affair is still on.

Like I said, the affair has not ended. But you won't know the full story until you hire a PI and have him tailed.

So you and WH are either financing a cruise for her or he is going with her without you.

Hey, it's your money not mine, but I'd be all over that.

So are you going to hire a PI to discover the location of the apartment that you and WH are renting for OW?

Please answer that question.

I apologize for my delay in answering your questions, I just had to reassure myself one way or another if my husband was monitoring this website. What's the point of having an investigator follow him if he knows he's being followed? I had to make a night-time trip to his business (while he was sleeping) and place my snoops on his computer to check his internet activity, etc. At this point, it doesn't appear that he is monitoring this forum, but it occurred to me that he could have purchased himself a lap top, created a new email account to communicate with OW, etc., etc.

I'm not approaching this matter from a state of paranoia, but rather from the realization that his offer to show me everything--to be an open book--is meaningless because where there is a will, there is a way. I am going to get the paperwork from the motel to determine exactly what time he rented the room and checked in with OW. I want to see if the timeline matches what he told me. When I called him at 11:00 PM on DDay, was he truly driving around with OW in the vehicle searching for an available room or were they rolling around in the sack? I just know that he was very curt with me when I called and and he wouldn't say "I love you" which was totally out of character for him.

I have stopped asking him questions and I'm meeting his needs and showing him what a wonderful wife he has. But I know that I cannot move forward into a false recovery. I need to know the entire truth, and I am working on that behind the scenes. Based on his internet browsing, I'm also suspicious that he is buying OW a vehicle. Or maybe he is looking for a vehicle for my son because I often remarked that the old vehicle my son was driving wasn't safe. Maybe he is looking at vehicles to please her, or maybe he is looking to please me. I don't know now, but will uncover the truth on my own. I just know OW didn't have a vehicle when he brought her to town, so I think my husband's browsing for vehicles says a lot.

Edit: Lots more snooping and investigation going on, but I want you all to know that I am taking all of your advice.

Good girl! Deb, I am relieved you are taking steps to check him out. A PI could uncover his actitivies fairly quickly - and with photos. I have a strong suspicion your husband has put the OW up somewhere and is meeting her there.

Because...

1. He doesn't know he's being followed and

2. Waywards are dumb and lazy and he won't be able to stay away from OW's apartment for too long--she'll be raising too much hell that he isn't coming by with the check for the cable/rent/groceries, etc.

I'm not getting the hesitation. This is your money as much as it is his, so why aren't you madder than hell that he is spending YOUR money on OW?

I agree Deb. I wouldn't let him spend any of OUR money on his skank.

I will bet you they have been at it since she was 17 (five years) and you are only now catching on to the affair.

It is ingrained.

You could still discover and possibly rebuild from it but be prepared for the facts you discover.

Agree with reading.

X2

3

Well done Deb, you are getting with the MB program!!!

I think time is of the essence here. You need to get the truth sooner rather than later because your WH is using marital money to fund this A.

Get the PI on the job pronto. Get your evidence.

About the car... don't try to make excuses for your WH. If he was looking for a car for your son, has he raised this with either of you? I did a lot of this excuse making prior to D Day. Your H is wayward, and waywards only think of themselves. Has WH mentioned looking for a cruise for that romantic break for the two of you to get started on recovery yet? Didn't think so...

Hubby and I have been having very rocky morning. I want to vent and don't even know where to start! I just want my husband to be an adult!

Why should he? Why should he change his behavior?

1. Because you ask? That doesn't work. You've tried it.

2. Because he fears losing something important? He doesn't fear losing anything so, therefore, there's no reason to change his behavior.

You'll go around in circles until you get mad enough to step off the ride and refuse to participate in his games any longer.

Yeah, but waywards are not thinking like adults. He is a toddler in a toystore, and he wants both toys. Cue tantrum when that dream is threatened in any way.

I agree with Northwood. Plan A is hard, and we are here to listen for you. But you need to also be taking action. A woman should not Plan A for too long either. Three weeks is enough. You need to start getting ready for Plan B.

But first you need that evidence. Have you got the PI on the job yet?

Hubby has routines that he cycles through when he's not getting his way: sweet talk; tantrums (used rarely, but effectively in the past); deflecting; and "poor ME." I admit that my husband gets his way almost always because I don't like any of these routines. I am a peacekeeper, not a war-maker. But the inequities in our marital relationship have taken a toll. I'm opening my eyes and seeing things that were previously swept under the rug and left there for years.


He now tells me that I'm not meeting his need for companionship (i.e., one of the causes for his attachment to OW). He wants to spend more time with me. I agree. But I'm not the one dishing his plate so full that there isn't any room for me. When he invites me to spend time with him, he is vague about the details and no definitive plans are made.

This last week, our town hosted a one-week fair/carnival. We stated that we should probably attend one evening during that week. Thursday evening he came home from work and said, "are you ready to go?" Oh, I didn't realize we were going that night, so naturally I want to get ready to out with my hubby.

It takes about an hour for me to do the things a woman likes to do to look nice on a "date" with her man. But he didn't give me time to get ready because he started telling me all the reasons why we shouldn't go. It's so hot out; he doesn't know where OW is and he's afraid we might run into her at the carnival, that might be awkward for us, etc. etc. etc. This was sounding like a very unattractive adventure for us.

Then hubby told me his "friend" J is stopping by with his little girl. J is taking his dear daughter to the carnival and had an extra ticket. Next thing, J is in our driveway and coming in the house and his little girl played with our cat. Since I'm not ready yet, and it would be so miserable for me to go to the carnival, he would just ride along J. He manipulated the situation, and we did not spend the time together that he is always telling me that he would LOVE to spend with me. (Of course, I was suspicious that he had a date with OW.)

A similar situation occurred on Sunday and our tentative date did not happen. He was later bitten by a wasp and wasn't feeling good. He went to bed early. Later that evening my brother and sister invited me over to my brother's house so we could discuss a family matter related to an asset we own as tenants in common. It got late, and my niece showed up when she got off work at 12:30 AM. I visited with her a bit and stated it was very late and I wanted to get home, but my niece (whom I love and adore) asked me so very sweetly, "Oh Auntie, I want you to stay and visit longer! I never get a chance to visit with you anymore!" Of course I stayed! We put on another pot of coffee and chatted away about her kids and their silly antics. I was having a nice visit with my family.

When I left my brother's house and climbed in my vehicle, my hubby drove by me--at high speed. Oh! He was apparently angry because I stayed so late at my brother's house visiting and he was showing his anger!

When I arrived home, he was in the shower. (Why is he in the shower in the wee hours of the morning?) Then he emerged, stomped around and got himself dressed. Then he proceeded to yell at me that I had time to sit and visit with my family, but I didn't have any time to spend with HIM! Huh? He started slamming the book I ordered, HNHN, on the table over and over again screaming at me, "HIS NEEDS, HIS NEEDS!!! not just HER needs! you _____(bad word)." He screamed at me that he wanted a divorce because he couldn't take this anymore. He took a coffee cup and slammed it to the floor and it broke into a thousand pieces.

He went from his temper tantrum to his poor me routine. Amazingly, however, I was not a puddle of emotion. I was scared, of course, but I was not letting this outburst to have the effect he wanted. I saw it all for what it was--manipulation.

I explained to him that I don't do these things to him; I don't throw temper tantrums; I don't call him obscene names. It's not appropriate for him to do these things. This outburst was not about me spending time with my family or me NOT spending time with him. This was deflection. We could have a good marriage and I will meet all of his needs, but he must get OW out of our lives for good. I reminded him, however, that he refused to write the "no contact" letter that I needed for reassurance that he was serious about saving our marriage.

He explained to me that he didn't want to cause OW any trouble or have all of her friends think she is having an affair with a married man. I explained to him that his "no contact" letter would be sent to her. I would not "publish" the "no contact" letter to her facebook friends. I explained, the fact that HER feelings were more important to him than MY feelings spoke volumes to me.

We have not had peace since that happened. He's still trying to manipulate me with his bad behavior. He also deactivated his facebook account. I reactivated his account because I was keeping track of his social connections. If OW sends him a private message, I want to know. He changed his password and deactivated his account again, and I simply got a security number to reactivate and that caused another temper tantrum this morning. I believe he's trying to hide something from me by deactivating his account and I need truth and honesty.

He called me from work and screamed at me and told me to leave his FB account alone! He wants it deactivated forever! Because he was screaming at me, I hung up.

A while later, he was walking in the house yelling, "Yes! That's right! I own my business so I can come home during the day." He screamed at me about hanging up on him and then he left angry.

Like a stupid teenage driver, he apparently drove in a hot-headed manner and got into an accident. He called me to tell me. Oh? Is that my fault too? Good-bye.

He called me later, sounding like a very scared child--fearful that he will be arrested for reckless driving. I told him that I could not protect him from suffering the consequences of his unacceptable behavior. If he was truly driving crazy on a busy street and endangering other people's lives, then he must deal with the consequences! He's now triggering his "poor me" routine.

He called my brother a little while ago and wants to have a talk with my brother. Hubby told my brother that he needs help because he's an emotional wreck, and he doesn't know how to make me believe that his relationship with OW is over. My brother hasn't decided whether he will accept hubby's invitation for a talk, but if he does, he will tell my hubby the same things that I told him. He needs to end all contact with OW for life and commit to a solid plan to recover the marriage.

Right now, as much as I love my husband, I don't know if I want this marriage to continue. His behavior has been unacceptable to the nth degree. I don't know if he's capable of making the changes necessary to get control of his anger and to stop manipulating. I'm running on almost no sleep here!

I am also mindful that these things paint him in a very unattractive light. I want to concentrate on the good man that he usually is and all the good things that he does for me.

Kiddo, you are rapidly passing through "Plan-B-ville", and moving into, "TRO-town".

You need a lawyer. You need to tell her everything that you just told us.

We will not be pleased to read soon that he lost just a little more control and assaulted you, so do this for us, okay?

This is all typical garden variety wayward behaviour. It is great that you recognize it as manipulative but it will start to cause stress related health issues if you continue to just Plan A it.

Your WH can easily prove himself by taking a poly. Why won't he take a poly? That is a very easy solution.

Have you hired a PI?

Are you going to take any of our advice or just continue with Plan A until you have a nervous breakdown?

I am happy to see that you have your eyes open to this type of behavior, and are not allowing your WH to manipulate you with it or making excuses for it anymore.

But I am sorry to hear that your life is turned upside down.

Are you using snooping techniques to find out the truth about this A? I know you don't want to post them, for fear your WH will see what you are doing.

What part of the 'stick' of Plan A are you doing? What are you doing to run off this OW? What are you doing to protect your marital assets?

Are you preparing for a good Plan B?

You cannot stay in this situation much longer, it is very abusive and damaging to you.

You are right, the fact that your H is fighting you tooth and nail about a NC letter, polygraph, etc. IS telling, it is telling you that he has a SSL with this woman and he is afraid that the roof is about to blow off of his secret life with OW.

Thank you all.

I have found good PI firm that can start work on a moment's notice. It's expensive, so I want to start the expenditure clock ticking at a time when I believe the efforts will be most fruitful. He wants to go to an out-of-state trade show soon, and I believe he is using that for an excuse to spend time with OW. That's when I want PI firm to start work. Through my own detective work, I have tracked down the address of the place where I believe the OW is staying.

I believe I have a very good handle on where he is at all times. My family members lend support and drive by his business often to report whether his vehicle is there. I don't know, but I'm thinking his "gaslighting" episodes are related to the fact that he knows he is being monitored and he's not free to live his second second life.

When he manipulated the situation so he could go to the fair/carnival without me, I suspected that he was meeting OW for a date. I prepared myself with camera to drive up to the residence where I believe she is staying and to park down the street to see for myself if hubby was on date with OW. My plan was foiled when hubby arrived home sooner than expected.

I need help to develop Plan B.

My situation is that I live in boom town with extreme housing shortage. My hubby and I bought our current house at just the right time--before prices skyrocketed. Our house payment is very reasonable so I want to stay in my house.

His parents live about a half block from me. He can easily stay with them.

Given our situation, do I just get a court order and have him removed from our home, or do I start with a letter outlining what he needs to do? Not sure, given my circumstances, how to properly develop and implement a Plan B. I also need to consider that I could possibly trigger an explosion if Plan B is not implemented carefully. I don't want my husband driving his truck into a bridge. He's on the edge right now and has made sorrowful comments like that while doing his "poor me" thing.

I have read so much, but my brain isn't working now.

With respect to our finances, our house is in both of our names; our vehicles are in his name; his business and business accounts are in his name; and I have personal assets in my name that are not entirely liquid at this point. I have one asset that I can cash in, but it will take 4 to 6 weeks for the paperwork to be processed and to get a check in my hand. I personally have ownership interests in oil wells and there is litigation pending concerning lease contracts. Thus, I have chosen to have my royalties placed in suspension until litigation is settled or goes to trial in a couple of months. My husband has substantial income from his business. Short term, I may need financial assistance from hubby; long-term I believe I will be okay.

Ulimately, however, I want to be with my husband. My goal is for us to be together so I want my Plan B designed to give that goal the best possible chance of being realized.

Okay Deb, glad to hear you starting to thrash a plan out.

I'm not a vet, but they will correct me if I am wrong.

Step one is getting your evidence. This will help you if you need Plan B. How soon is the trade show? You really shouldn't be Plan A'ing for much longer. If this show is weeks off, how about arranging a night for you to visit family. Give WH a few days notice so he can make plans with OW. Set up VAR's in the house, his car, GPS in his car, even get the PI on the job for that night so you don't get involved in any confrontations.

Once you have your evidence, I would re-expose. At this stage WH seems to be minimising the A. Spinning his own story, they become the masters of spin. With evidence you take this away from him, and show his selfishness for what it is. Especially given he is using your marital funds for his skank.

Then enter Plan B. Its good you are starting to think about getting your ducks in a row. Plan B needs to be well-thought out.

Oh Deb, I remember this time post D Day. The confusion and trying to get to grips with our new reality is devestating. Combined with our poor bodies showing our distress... sleep, appetite and behaviour are usually effected. Please make sure you take care of yourself.

Damn right you stay in the house. Plan B is about offering your WH a map with directions to find his way back to you and the life he had with you. Whilst you get on with your life with peace and begin healing. So DON'T move out. He is the one committing adultery, and a consequence of that may be getting evicted.

Make sure you don't give any warning about Plan B. WH should not know and have time to prepare. Don't let your adversaries know you have a battle plan.

Most Plan B'ers on here that I have read have simply packed WH's things, sat them outside or had a relative collect them, and changed the locks, no Court Order needed. Ensure WH has the Plan B letter, which outlines what he has to do to earn recovery. This also acts as protection should WH contact solicitors or police about being locked out. This letter shows you are simply protecting yourself and setting boundaries.

Where WH goes is not your concern as hard as this is. I know it takes time to try to detach, but you need the tough love approach and let the consequences rain down on WH. I am glad you see his "poor me" routine as pure manipulation. You are not responsible for his actions, only your own. And actually Deb, you want exposure and Plan B to help WH hit rock bottom. It is only when a wayward hits rock bottom that they pay attention to what is actually in that Plan B letter and see this as the way to climb back up.

Speak with a solicitor before entering Plan B. Make sure you have your ducks in a row and have protected yourself financially as best you can. Also ensure you are getting copies of all finances, etc.

Having a plan, particularly with finances, will help the effectiveness of your Plan B.

Because you do not want your marital funds to be financing WH with OW in a "love nest" , buying her a car and taking her on a cruise somewhere.

Instead, you want him to be down at the bank, trying to organise a line of credit. OW may not be so impressed when WH's finances become threatened.

Also you have this?

How To Plan B Properly

Deb,

I see you have read up about gaslighting and recognize that is what your husband is doing.

Definitely get ready for Plan B. Don't dilly-dally too long about it. It sounds as if now is the perfect time for Plan B.

AM

I would confirm the location of OW's apartment and, with evidence in hand, speak to an attorney about your options. Get your financials in order and then Plan B--possibly filing for a divorce at the same time.

It likely doesn't matter whose name the accounts or vehicles are in--it's all marital property, but confirm with an attorney.

Deb. How long are you going to wait to try and get that picture of the two of them together? I agree that you need to try...but unless they are in a compromising position...WH will just explain it away with some wayward babble.

I think you have enough evidence to demand that WH commit to NC for life, write a NC letter, and take a poly. That is what it will take to keep YOU interested in reconciling. I would put it in a pre-plan B letter format that spells out clearly what you expect from him and also shows your willingness to work on the M once he agrees. Get your Plan B ducks in a row.

Get to work on protecting your finances. Keep up the excellent PI work you are doing. You never know when or where you will find something but don't let your finances be squandered at the same time.

Could the trade show be a cruise?

Stay strong. You are a smart woman and you can do this.
(((hugs)))

I have been sleeping maybe 2 or 3 hours at a time and then waking up in a sweaty mess. Then I'm up for hours and hours and can't get back to sleep.

My husband wanted to have a talk with me yesterday morning. I could tell that he was as emotionally and physically exhausted as me. He begged me to end this "madness" and to work on our marriage. I listened to him, but remained skeptical.

I feel like he is just using his "manipulation magic" to convince me to revert to his loving wife with her head in the sand so he can continue with his secret life. He admitted, in his warped thinking, that he believed he could juggle his life so he could have both me and OW. And, of course he was successful in his juggling act because the nature of his work gave him a million reasons for being absent from our home.

Hubby also stated that HE feels betrayed and used by OW because OW was on a cruise with HER former boyfriend. Hard for me to sympathize with his heartache over OW, and I'm not convinced that she's on a cruise. (After all, why would hubby inform me that he was concerned about running into OW at the carnival if she was truly on a cruise with her former boyfriend?) So what now? Is hubby telling me that I am his consolation prize? Hubby may have lost OW, but at least he still has me kind of thing? Thanks a lot, dear hubby!

According to hubby, OW told him that she was going on cruise with her former boyfriend, not because she had romantic feeling for former boyfriend, but because the cruise was already paid for. If true that OW told him this, it seems that skanky OW is trying to keep my hubby on her hook. But, I don't hold anything that hubby says as having any credibility.

I asked my hubby if he was in love with OW and he said he didn't know. He also said his affair with OW began in December 2011 (which, if true, explains the many months of hubby stressing me out with his unhappiness). It just boggles my mind to think about all the time hubby was spending with OW when he was lying to me about his activities.

He told me that he has self-esteem issues, and when he first saw me, he thought I was one of the most beautiful, classiest women he had ever seen. He didn't think he would ever have a chance to be with someone like me. And he thinks, if I had not been vulnerable when we first met because my father had just died, etc., that I would never have looked twice at him. (I can hear violins playing in the background!)

Poor hubby, allegedly never feeling "good enough" to be with me that he was forced to seek out illicit relationship with skanky woman to make himself feel better.

I don't believe the things he told me during our conversation, but I was careful not to argue with him and I did not point out any inconsistencies in his story.

At least he's not throwing tantrums at this moment (I believe he wore himself out emotionally with his own gaslighting), and I finally got some sleep!!!!

During our conversation, he said he wanted to spend time with me. He was setting aside this coming Sunday to spend with me and we would do whatever I wanted to do. After I woke up from my long slumber, hubby asked me if it would be okay to go out on Saturday evening instead so he could go to an out-of-town auction with his Dad on Sunday. So predictable!

I have my eyes wide open and don't believe that hubby's affair with OW is over.

We have peace right now so that I can "Plan A" a little longer while PI gathers evidence to establish affair is still ongoing. In meantime, I need to continue putting my ducks in order to formulate and establish an effective "Plan B."

Deb,

You are right. This is not even close to being over. Stay with the plan. Sounds as if you did a good Plan A job - avoiding lovebusting.

Check out where he really is on Sunday.

AM

If he is at a point of saying he is done with OW, why not ask him for a NCletter, polygraph, and EPs?

He has already refused to write an NC letter. He is not done with ow. He wants both his wife and skanky ow.

AM

ok, Deb, I am getting very alarmed here because we are now DAYS into this and you still have not taken any steps to bust him. WHY NOT? Instead you are making long posts about his fogbabble.

This is a waste of time and a distraction from taking necessary steps. You need to spy on your husband, get the goods and end this drama. Hire the PI and get the goods. Then expose the affair. Posting his drama will not resolve this sitution. He is still in touch with the OW, probably going by her house every day, and you need to flush this out.

Do you have a GPS on his car? If not, go buy a zoombak and put it on his car TODAY: http://www.zoombak.com/store-locator/us/

Hire the PI and get him following your husband NOW. There is nothing to wait for. Please stop posting his fogbabble. It will not help your marriage.

Deb, is the PI actually working NOW? And do you have a GPS on your husbands vehicle?

Another thing that concerns me is why would your husband remove his facebook page and state his concern that you would expose to the OW's facebook page unless he is reading here? He is reading here, isn't he?

That would explain his anxiety right now. He is in withdrawal because he is reading here about the PI?

It is certainly possible he is reading here. Deb told H about the MB website a couple of weeks ago. I don't think she told him about her thread, but it would be easy enough to find, if he were looking.

AM

It just screams of a wayward that knows the gig is up and is trying to placate the betrayed to get things back to normal.

Deb, as an aside, please get a handle on your finances. Previous posts seem to indicate that you aren't aware of what your WH spends your money on. Whatever financial records he has shown you, ask to see the "real" ones because this guy probably has a whole other second life that you know absolutely nothing about.

I have asked him for NC letter and he won't write it. All I want at this time is to show my husband that I love him, gather proof that affair is still going on, and then go into plan B. I will have my list of things that he must do if he wants to end his affair with OW for life and be with me, including NC letter, polygraph, and EPs set forth in an addendum to my plan B letter. I think I am on the right track, but if not, please help me get there. I'm listening!

His actions are WAY stronger than his words.

He wants two women and he wants them now.

Ignore all blah, blah, blah.

Stop trying to educate him but instead be one non love busting woman with firm boundaries of what is acceptable to you as a human being.

Prepare to Plan B him by continuing Plan A and crafting a Plan B letter (post it here for editing) and line up your ducks in a row should the marriage need to go to plan B for a 'time out' or on the way to plan D.

I think he is keeping MUCH from you (when the affair began and so on).

I'm sorry for venting, sharing the emotional drama (fogbabble), and wasting everyone's time. That was not my intent, and I am very sorry.

From my snooping on hubby's computer, there is no evidence that he has been accessing the MB website or this discussion forum. I have not told him about this forum. But, I realize it is possible that he has access to other computers I don't know about and he may be following this thread.

I should just assume he is snooping on me the same as I am snooping on him, and I should discontinue posting.

Well, my two cents.... If he is by some chance reading this forum, he already knows your plans. Maybe just quit saying what you are doing or what you are planning to do.???? I think you need the support of everyone here to keep your mind as clear as possible and to help keep your moral up!!

WD,

I believe MelodyLane was referring to a waste of YOUR time, not the posters. She's encouraging you to avoid wasting any of YOUR time listening to fogbabble and get to work on what you need to do to take care of yourself and to blow up the A fantasy.

Deb, you are wasting YOUR TIME writing about it. It is like taking the time to write out the rantings of a falling down drunk when you should be taking away his car keys. Dont vent, TAKE ACTION!

I am trying to encourage you to make better use of your time by taking ACTION. This should not have gone on this long without uncovering his active affair. I KNOW he is still seeing her and this has to be uncovered. NOTHING ELSE matters until you have that intel. What are you doing NOW to uncover this?


I would email the moderators and let them know this is a possibility. They can suggest options. But why else would he say what he did about exposing the affair to the OW's friends?

And have you been in touch with the OW's mother?

I just don't see any proactive actions here and that is what is necessary to kill an affair.

For example, you have been here 2 weeks and that is plenty of time to find out where and how your H and the OW are meeting up. Where does she live? How are they meeting up? What is going on? Is he paying for her pad?

In order to move forward, you have to know all that. You have to have this intel in order to kill his affair.

Deb --

Your husband is trying to distract you with talk about dates and working on your marriage. He's hoping to passify you enough to keep you off the trail of the affair. He most definetly doesn't want you to disrupt his way of life (having 2 women meet his needs.)

You need to be a broken record: I am interested in saving this marriage if you give me the complete truth about your affair, backed up by a polygraph and a commitment to no-contact for life with OW. If you are willing to do what it takes, I will consider staying married to you.

I agree with this very much. He is trying to throw her off balance by barraging her with fogbabble. And focusing on his lunacy just distracts her from saving her marriage.

WD, on 25 July I posted the following to you:

Call an attorney and find out your rights and options. Hire a PI.

Kiddo, you have now gotten each of these pieces of advice from two posters. Unless you have serious experience dealing with fighting the effects of infidelity, I would urge you to rely more on our judgment and less on your instinct.

You are operating under a huge (but common) misconception. You believe that the current situation is one in which you and WH would operate as allies in this struggle. You cannot be more wrong. You and he are adversaries right now. What he wants, you DON'T want. He wants to make nicey-nicey with you on immaterial details, and your best strategy is to make this a roaring battle-royale.

Let me reiterate - There is nothing romantic, affectionate, nor tender about your relationship with WH right now. An active affair is not "niced" to its death.

Are you ready yet to believe, and more importantly, take action, on my advice?

If not, then let's cut through all of his crap and get to the nugget:

He's planning to support OW(hore) with YOUR financial assets so he can continue to screw her 22-year-old body whenever the mood strikes him.

Internalize that piece of information, friend, and then reconsider your answer to my question.

Dr Harley has said that the NC letter is a good way to measure if the affair has ended. My wife also refused to write one giving every reason under the sun.
At this point I think you should file for divorce and enter into plan B.

And prior to filing for divorce and enterin into Plan B EXPOSE this affair

Hey Deb, how are things?

Things are terrible. Enduring steady stream of abusive lovebusters. He spewed forth another angry and irrational tirade this morning, and I sit here fighting back the tears. He has launched a full-fledged attack against my family members and I'm frightened that he's causing irreparable damage. Knives to my heart....

Have you hired a PI and obtained evidence of his ongoing affair?

Things are terrible. Enduring steady stream of abusive lovebusters. He spewed forth another angry and irrational tirade this morning, and I sit here fighting back the tears. He has launched a full-fledged attack against my family members and I'm frightened that he's causing irreparable damage. Knives to my heart....

And still the PI remains unemployed, and the lawyer remains unconsulted.....

WD. right now your tears are the prize for his efforts to put this on you. He can't do that without your active help, and quite frankly, by doing NOTHING to fight him, you're behaving as his best ally in this battle.

The affair is ongoing and I have obtained sufficient evidence to satisfy myself that he is addicted.

I now see him as a drunk driver who runs over everything and everyone in his path not caring one iota about the destruction he causes. My heart is breaking and there is a battle raging in my own head whether or not I want to save this marriage.

By doing what you are doing, you will not save the marriage.

Your only chance to save it is to STOP doing what you're doing and make a move.

Have you noticed that us posters seem to be pretty peeved and frustrated about your situation? That's a sign that we see the train coming but little movement on your part. We aren't here writing to you for our health, but out of a genuine concern and desire for you to improve your life. You should have a similar desire.

Make a move, Deb.

So sorry for what you are enduring. Have you ascertained how much of your marital funds have gone to this young skank?
Once you figure out if WH has bought her a car, rented her an apartment, etc., you can call her mother again. Let her mother know that her daughter will be hauled into court and sued for your half of the marital assets that were spent on her. OW will owe you for half of everything WH has spent on her. Her mother might get thru to her if you are talking about money she can't repay. You have to run her off. Just a thought. GF

...whether or not I want to save this marriage.

WD, the odds of saving this marriage(?) decrease with every "Woe is Deb!" note with no action.

You don't wait for a cancer to metastasize and then console yourself by saying, "Well it was too late!" Excise that sumbitch today, friend.

You might someday wishing you had struck back today instead of waiting seven months like the poster here.

You're a smart woman, Deb, but you're paralyzed at the moment. Take action. Go into plan B. Let him fume, flail, and froth away from you. Protect yourself, his account in your Lovebank, and your family. There's nothing more you can do here for now.

What are you doing to save your marriage then? It is not going to happen by magic, Deb.

I'm going to end my marriage.

Ok, fair enough. Can we help you through this? What Harley would tell you to do would be to separate and get into Plan B. Are you familiar with Plan B?

What made you decide to end your marriage?

Have you exposed to OW mother? She was a BW herself,



He is a typical wayward.




You do not have to decide now...but you do have to start to protect your own health and the finances which he is squandering on OW. Divorce proceedings can be stopped if he does a complete 180.

TY, NeverGuessed. I have been weak and complacent. Over many years, I have voiced my concerns and desires to my husband in a most tender and loving way. His verbal responses were equally filled with sugar and sweetness. His actions, however, were always the opposite. And you are right: I did NOTHING to fight him and to earn my rightful place as his equal partner in our life together.

I have been making strides these past few weeks to move myself out of my long-standing role as a weak and complacent wife and into the healthier role of stronger (but still loving) wife who enforces boundaries and demands actions (not just his sugary words employed to pacify me). Hence, my husband has responded with an onslaught of abuse to shove me back into complacency. Although not readily apparent to any of you, I am aware that my wishbone is transforming into a backbone.

This is great news deb... however

Tell us how.

The thing is, I have been down your path. Playing the supportive spouse whilst my WH was plotting his wayward path.

Being an understanding and loving spouse whilst my H was actively wayward got me nowhere. Unless you count my WH now having an OC to his POSOW as a positive marital change

Don't get to where I am. Fight and fight some more, lay down those boundaries. Show that backbone by taking action. NOW.

If you had followed the advice when it was given, a PI would have already gathered the evidence, you would have exposed and you would now be in Plan B.

I suggest you start taking action pronto. Stop questioning if you want to save the marriage or not. Right now, this is not your hurdle and you will likely vacilate on this decision for many months to come. Give yourself the options of marital or personal recovery, by following the plans and keeping those options open if they are presented to you.

Actions not words are for the betrayed, not just the wayward.

Thank you for your thoughts. If my husband does not voluntarily share all of his financial records with me, I can obtain them through court proceedings.

Ok, Deb, I still don't see a plan here. What is required is action, not more talk. While you are waiting to grow a backbone, your situation grows worse and worse.

Courage is a choice, it is not something that attacks you against your will. You can make a choice to act today.

I already informed my husband that our crippled marriage is OVER and that we will have our respective legal counsel hammer out the details of a marital property settlement. I asked him to move out today. I scheduled a locksmith to change the locks tomorrow morning.

That is a great first step! Will he move out?

I am however worried that he won't move out today as requested and will kick the door in tomorrow when he discovers the locks have been changed. He has proven an unwillingness to control his anger and his actions are frightening. If he threatens me with an angry outburst, I will call the police.

My family law attorney is on vacation this week, but I am hoping my husband will cooperate with my requests. If not, I will not rely on plan "hope". I will get a restraining order ASAP. Even if my attorney is out of town, there are advocates available who have priority access to local judges and are capable of running the paperwork through the court system and getting him served in a very quick amount of time.

Any other suggestions as to how I should immediately proceed?

Does WH usually get home at a reasonably predictable time? Having trustworthy witnesses "visiting" at that time might be a good idea.

Is he "connected" (friends, civic relationships) with law enforcement in any way? If so, anticipate his using that to get their intervention in your actions. If so, balance your cooperation with their instructions against what seems reasonable. Sadly, you only have shared (not priority) claim on your home. Don't get backed into a corner that causes YOU to commit legal infractions, okay?

Because I have taken my blinders off. My head is no longer in the sand. I am no longer sweeping problems under the rug. And all those other helpful metaphors and/or linguistic aids to describe where I'm at right now.

I realized that my marriage was limping along in a crippled state for years before my husband commenced his affair. The affair was not even the Coup de gr�ce. It was his onslaught of lovebusters designed to get his weak, complacent wife back in line and his unacceptable attack on my family designed to isolate me from the support I desperately need. That was what finally made me decide to end my marriage--my CRIPPLED marriage.

I still love my husband. That hasn't changed.

WD;

You have decided to stand up for yourself and your M, I think that is brave and wonderful.

You WH is acting in a typical WW manner, he does not believe that you are serious about your demands. He is also addicted to OW. I am certain he does not believe you are serious, that you will immediately back down, and he can still have the wife and the OW, too.

You are going to need to make a plan, PREPARE yourself and execute the plan only when YOU are ready.

I wish you would have gotten legal counsel before asking him to move out, but it sounds like you have plans to get some soon.

Do you understand about plan b? Do you have a trustworthy person to be your IM and handle communications?

I still love my husband. That hasn't changed.

It should. Sorry, WD, but the "husband" that once deserved your tender affections is absent, probably permanently.

...his onslaught of lovebusters...unacceptable attack on my family designed to isolate me...

Intentional emotional cruelty and abuse cannot be the hallmark characteristics of someone deserving "love". One of the posters here has as her note epilogue, "Love the man he was; know the man he is!"

You probably want to bear that thought in mind.

That is PERFECT! CArry on! If you focus on getting him moved out for now, once he is out, we can help you with next steps.

I would also suggest you pack his bags and have them ready for him for when he returns.

And, as you implement each step, do not lovebust.
Be clear, concise, express that you will not participate in his life while he is continuing this path.

Deb --

You are ending your "crippled" marriage which I heartily applaud.

Remain in your position of strength - and you may get a new marriage. Your husband very well might change his behaviors.

The Universe is interceding....

On 8/02 I posted:


Right after I posted that, my husband called. He told me, "Since you're checking up on me, I think it's okay for me to check up on you."

I didn't know if my husband was just in tune with my thoughts, like he almost always is (i.e., I will think something and a moment later he is saying the same thing out loud) or if he found this thread and was snooping. Regardless, I did stop posting for several days because I didn't know for sure.

Shortly after I posted on this board that I had scheduled the locksmith to come tomorrow morning to change the locks, my husband came racing home and asked me if I was changing the locks. I demanded to know his source of information! The locksmith was at his place of business changing the tumbler in the door to the store at the same time I posted, and the locksmith asked my husband if he was related to ME because he was scheduled to change the locks tomorrow morning.

I did not believe my husband, but he showed me the receipt from the locksmith and the four new keys that were made for the front door. Then I asked him WHY he was changing the locks . . . was he doing it to keep me from entering his place of business? No, No, No, he stated. He decided to change the lock because it was sticking really bad--and I know that is true. He immediately gave me a key and stated he had four made--one for him, one for me, one for his mom, and one for his dad.

I called the locksmith to chastise him for telling my husband that I was changing the locks on the door. After all, he did not know if my husband was violent or whether he was placing me in danger. And the locksmith was defiant--claiming that unless I had a restraining order keeping my husband out of the house, he would refuse to change my locks for me because it would be a "conflict of interest." GARBAGE!

The universe is working against me, in that regard, or either for me. . . I don't know. But this really hit my husband hard. He agreed with me that he did not want to continue in our crippled marriage either, but he does want more than anything to build a new and better marriage with me.

Is it too late for us? We agreed that we would have one more discussion this evening and try to formulate a plan to build a new and better marriage. He agreed, if we could not do this, he would move out without any fight whatsoever--it will not be necessary for me to get a restraining order or anything like that. My husband apologized for alienating my family and promised to apologize to my sister for the unacceptable text.

I think we need professional help. If my husband agrees to get counseling from the MB counseling center, should I allow him to stay?

This is along lines of having a plan.
In plan b there are conditions for return.

Again, you are flopping all over the place...That is a perfectly normal place for you to be, but you need to stop showing this side to your WS.

Sounds like you need to think of what your conditions are.
A concrete plan that will satisfy you and end the confusion of your conditions.
There is a lot posted on this site from many BS who have come up with and edited lists.

I am glad he is taking you serioiusly, but you have to make sure the changes are long term and sincere.

Have you been posted the plan B link?

I think I posted this to you before.
How to Plan B Properly

Well, my thoughts are that he's going to agree to everything and then slack off once you back off with the separation talk. I doubt that he's sincere in rebuilding your marriage, but would wager that he is sincere in his desire to keep you and the OW in his life.

Keep that bar pretty high, Deb. If you give an inch now, he'll take a mile and it's pretty common for a wayward to be all in support of fixing things only to slide back into old habits once you start getting comfortable again.

The missing money and your financing his OW would be at the top of the list of discussion. If/when he starts blaming you or deflecting and refusing to "own" where he is, I'd just tell him to leave and walk him to the door. You've probably seen the false sincerity before and know what to look for.

I would still consult an attorney to see what they recommend to protect yourself financially.

Assume that he is reading your thread and has a keylogger on your computer.

Lastly, unless the "Wrinkled" part of your screen name is done tongue-in-cheek, I'd suggest deleting it as some may think that it reflects on your self-image.

What NW said.
Many WS will say anything to keep the facade up. There has been years of gaslighting and deciet going on, here.

You need to have your boundaries and be willing to enforce your choices. WS needs to understand your intentions.

I've read the materials on Plan B.

I don't want to flop. I am serious when I told him that our crippled marriage is over. I won't live in that marriage ever again. I won't live with a husband who has no boundaries and angry outbursts. I think it would be beneficial for him to hear the same things from a marriage coach that I have been hearing from all of you.

There you go! Glad to hear that you're finished accepting your old marriage as "ok" or "normal" in any way.


I agree, and think you should add it to the list of things that he must do (or conditions that he must satisfy) for you to consider remaining married to him.

And the new name is better.

I'm not a young woman--I'm 54 and showing my age. It was terrifying to me that the OW is 22 years old. But, I did as you suggested and deleted.

Good job changing your name. You are a beautiful and young 50 something, and that 22 years old piece of trash has nothing on you.

Did you ask your WH to write the NC letter which you will mail TONIGHT, and tell him you are going to give him tonight to provide you with all information, and then tomorrow schedule him a poly?

I'm guessing his response would show you how sincere he is about wanting to build a new and better marriage.

Write out your EP's, they have to start with NO CONTACT for life with his OW. If he balks at that, the very first thing, he is not serious.

Debra

I have been following your thread since the beginning and you have had the best advice so far.

After having gone through a dozen false recoveries and a whole lot of pain I have learned to spot a prime manipulator a mile off and your WH fits that description.

My advice to you would be that the only way for you to tell if your WH is genuinely interested in recovery and building a better marriage or if he's still just after more cake eating is to start the conversation your have planned to have with him tonight with requesting the NC letter and that he has NC with OW for life.

If your WH is willing to take this vital first step and no longer puts up a fight to do it then there is a little hope that he might be genuine this time but if he starts to become aggressive and evasive again then he is still just trying to manipulate you and cake eat.

If all goes well with the NC letter then I would suggest that you start working on a list of EP that you want your WH to adhere to including drawing up a post nup protecting you should he become wayward again (or continues to be so). If your WH agrees to this then there is alot of hope that he is willing to recover or build a better marriage.

just remember the EPs are NOT negotiable and the NC letter and NC for life with OW are seriously necessary and again NOT negotiable.

Yep. That's garbage. You busted him on his comments to WH about changing the locks. The locksmith is now worried that you may have a complaint about a privacy violation. He isn't supposed to be saying anything to anyone about his jobs.

Deb, i find it so frustrating that you can't stick to a plan for more than 10 minutes. Do you remember the plan you discussed this morning? Nothing has changed since then. NOTHING. Your drunken husband says a few words of fogbabble and your plan goes right out the window! You are allowing your drunken husband to drive the car and you are going to end up in a crash.

You have no plan and no hope unless your husband ends his affair. All the "counseling" in the world will not help you until and unless he ends his affair.

HE WILL NOT END HIS AFFAIR.

That means that your next step is Plan B. Ask him to move out. CAll another locksmith and change your locks. Then go into Plan B.

But for God's sake, stop messing around and allowing your addict of a husband to go drunk driving with YOUR LIFE. If you cannot follow a plan, you will not make it!!

Your crippled marriage is not over. You *ARE* living in that marriage TODAY. You have to back your words up with action, my friend. Just saying big words does not = actions.

There are no actions to back it up here.

Your husband likely has a keylogger on your computer and is reading this thread. Did you run some spyware to find out?

To check for a keylogger, install a new antivirus (avast is a free one) and run it. Any existing antivirus programs would likely already be compromised if a keylogger is installed.

Or buy a new computer and watch how quickly your WH gets interested in borrowing it.

Deb,

Will your H agree to NC and an NC letter? Will he agree to be transparent and end his secret second life? If no, change the locks today and ask him to leave. It is far to painful to keep watching him flaunt his affair. Tell him so!!!

FYI. For me, it was not until I told H that I had an attorney appointment and that I never wanted to see of speak with him again, that he finally agreed to fully commit to openness and honesty and our marriage. Our false recovery took alot out of me, physically and emotionally. I could have avoided most of it by asking H to leave earlier.

Great name change. FWIW, I turned 60 this year. My H is 55. His OW was 15 years younger than I. I had never worried much about my age before the A. I had always looked much younger than H. Bottom line is that WSes always "affair down" - pick someone inferior to their spouse on many levels. Currently, my H is head over heals in love with me and thinks OW is a sorry excuse for a human.

AM

The locksmith was abrasive and demeaning in his stance that a married woman cannot change the locks on her marital residence without a court order or her husband's permission. On the other hand, the locksmith did not call me to inform me that my husband was changing the locks on our business . . . .

I suspect the locksmith called my husband to tattle on me the moment after I got off the phone with him after scheduling the lock change. This situation with the locksmith infuriates me, but so does a lot of other stuff that takes priority and I need to direct my energy elsewhere.

If necessary, I will buy new locks from the hardware store and have my brother install them. Problem solved.

It'd be a lot cheaper. They aren't hard to install. Watch your brother do one and you'd probably be able to do the rest.

So what is the plan now, Deb? It seems the wheels have fallen off the cart again.

So do I! But I don't think I'm a complete failure . . .

I'm frustrated too that witnessing my husband suffer one ounce of pain can have any effect on me! I'm frustrated that locksmith tattled on me and that sent my husband racing home at a moment when I was feeling so strong and good about my decision that I was confident enough to share my decision with others. I'm frustrated too.

I wish I didn't love him because then it would be easy to slam the door in his sorrowful face and not care about his pain. This situation has been extremely hard, but I know that I have made significant progress and for that I have been thankful to all of you for the steps forward that I have made.

Am I a complete failure on this rocky road to getting to a place where I can heal? I don't think so. I'm growing stronger every day. I know that! I can see that in myself, and that feels very good! A few weeks ago, I was an emotional puddle on the floor. Today I am standing. Tomorrow, I will be skipping and soon I will be running.

Don't give up on me.

ok, can we get back to the plan now? He is not going to end his affair. I think you know this.

Will he move out?

1. I'm going to follow advice and check to see if my hubby installed a keylogger.

2. Providing it's possible on Saturday, I'm going to contact MB coaching center and schedule 5 sessions and pay for them with my husband's credit card.

3. I'm going to take a shower, fix my hair, and put make-up on!

4. I'm going to make an appointment with an expensive hair stylist.

5. I'm going to go shopping and buy myself some new clothes.

6. I'm going to do things to make myself feel better and stronger.

7. I want the MB coach to inform my husband what he needs to do to build a new and better marriage in accordance with MB principles, and I will inform my husband that if he fails to do the things he needs to do as outlined by the coach, then he is gone, I will have no further contact with him, and I will file for divorce and move on with my life without him.

That is my plan. He won't get away with any manipulation.

ok, I give up!

Deb,

It will get worse. Please, get him out of the house today!

AM

ok, I give up!

Not acceptable, Tex! If you don't stay on the job, then NG is going to have to jump in, and BWs tend to get offended by males (or maybe just me?) using the kind of "Get your head out of your nether regions" responses that you can get away with.

Don't make me start up the recalcitrant BW butt-kicking engine, okay?

Deb, stop "thinking" and start listening, okay?

NG,

Mel has said on previous occasions that her time is valuable. When posters ignore or reject MB principles, Mel directs her attention to those who want to know and apply MB.

For me, it is too disturbing to watch a train wreak continue to get bigger and bigger when there is inaction. I get nauseous thinking about it.

AM

I know you want me to get my husband out of the house today. I hear that. But I don't want to do it today.

I did not want to do it either...i stalled......i dragged my feet.....i minimized the sitation.....i stalled some more......minimized a little more.....made excuses.....then it was this...then it was that......i do not think NG 's knee and foot has completely healed from all the butt-kicking I received from him, among all the 2 x 4's, head shaking, from everyone else, all very well deserved by the way. It should not take nearly 7 months for a BW to get into plan B and take action. Let me repeat that......IT SHOULD NOT HAVE TAKEN ME 7 MONTHS TO GET INTO PLAN B, but it did.

Do not do what I did.

Bust a move, take some action, you are not doing yourself any favors sitting right now.

Start your engines, gentlemen!!

This sounds very familiar Mel......only because you said it to me 100 times before I got it.....

This is also very familiar.....you also said this to me as well Mel.

Deb....do i need to keep going back over your thread and reposting Mel's advice and others to you???

I can......

Shake the sand out of your eyes and ears.

Get going.

Start your engines, gentlemen!!

Deb, you are being mistreated by your husband.

Financially - He's looting your marital assets to keep POSOW's 22-y/o body comfortable and available for his use.

Psychologically - He's using the entire book of WS tricks to demean and distract you from focusing on his transgressions.

Emotionally - He's got you scared of standing up for your own dignity and rights.

You came here weeks ago, to address (from your own title): Hubby...In Lust with 22 year old

Dozens (scores?) of colleagues have given you the fix to your problem. The only thing left is your trust (in us) and resolve (for yourself) to implement those suggestions, all of which focus on the same actions.

You may waste another week (or seven months!) before bringing the hammer down. Why would that satisfy you? It certainly would satisfy the APs who, in that time, may:
- find a way to shield more $$ resource from your reach;
- conceive that child which would put some money under its use, removed from the marital split calculation;
- browbeat you (with ennui) into a less-than-vigorous legal pursuit.

I (and from the reactions here, my colleagues) don't understand what is preventing you from what needs to be done.

Can you explain?

(Just to forestall the inevitable, I might as well hit "notify" on my own post, to save everyone else the trouble! Howdy, Mods!)

AM, you are witnessing camaraderie. NG already knows that.

MB,

Yep. I know.

I get nauseous because I know the effect this kind on inaction had on me. It took alot out of me. More than four years post D-day, I still have physical ailments and it took me a long time to get rid of the depression.

AM

Hugs to you, sweetie.

Thanks. H was a mess, as well. We are getting better and better now. It was unnecessarily bad for a couple of years. That's the nature of a false recovery.

AM

Debra. The only way your WH will stop is when YOU demand that he stop and show him that you are SERIOUS about not accepting a third person in your marriage.



See. It does work. But you did not carry through with showing him that you are serious.


All he has to do is say this and you back down on your conditions:



What happened to the NC letter and the poly?




Here is what you posted on July 18...nearly a month ago. Nothing has changed Debra except that your WH now knows that you are not serious because he can sweet talk his way out of it. This is the second time.

Debra, we would love to help you but we can do nothing if you aren't serious. Your husband knows you aren't serious and we know you aren't serious.

Your marriage could very well be saved, but you are squandering it with your inaction. Nothing we tell you here can compensate for your complacence.

pokerface has made a good point, that getting agreement from a liar and a wayward is about as valuable as a cow pattie. Talk means nothing. Nothing. Like when you say you "won't live in a crippled marriage." .........and then remain in a crippled marriage.

All empty talk. Empty talk will not save your marriage. Empty talk will not protect your mental health from your ABUSIVE, CRUEL husband and his skank.

As long as your head is in the sand and that is the best that you can come up with as a "to do list" to stay married (which is a FAR cry from "saving your marriage")...I am gonna add one to your list.


8. Invite the 22 year old girl to move in with us.

She is so deep in your marriage that is the ONLY thing left to do to get her deeper.

But No Worries...I am sure that you will be rockin' that new expensive do.

<sarcasm off>

committed

Q #1. Did your husband commit to no contact with the OW?
Q #2. Has your H stopped the financail support of OW will stolen marital assets? Has he kicked her to the curb? (Cut the money?)
Q #3. Did your H promise to not have any contact at all with the OW? (for gosh sakes, he gave her YOUR CAR- what else is it going to take to show you that YOU are #2?)
Q #4. Did he write a no contact letter to the other woman?
Q #5. Has he promised you he will have nothing to do with the other woman?

I don't know how many other ways I can say this. What, besides shopping IS YOUR plan to save yourself?

Have you read any of the MB material about plans for recovery?

One thing I know is that you have to do the work and you must come up with your plan (there is no MB coach that is going to set up all this for you.)

You need to start reading. You are squandering your chances.

I don't shop, I don't get my hair done, I don't paint my fingernails. Right now, I'm sitting here with a pain in my gut that has been growing worse and worse over the last several weeks. I suspect that I developed an ulcer.

Dear Debra,

1. look up the telephone number of your physician on the internet
2. get up from your chair and make an appointment

3. now, get your car keys and go out of the house
4. get your hair done

Unless your pain is so severe that you fear for your life, in which case you go to the emergency department of your local hospital. If not, getting your hair done does not make it worse and sitting at home is not going to make it better.

5. With hair done, you can get your WH from work to have dinner if you like, if you are still in plan A
6. Make a checklist for plan B, because it is overdue (Ulcer...)

Now, start phoning your doc!

come on, get up. I know you are still sitting there...

NOW! HOP!

You can do it.

One phone call.

One hairdo.

gogogogogogogogogogogo!

Please. ACT! You must act! Plan B, no more listening to soothing lies. THIS point, RIGHT NOW, is when you can save your marriage without further unnecessary, unrelenting, bone marrow-sucking, soul-withering agony. Your husband is not sane at the moment. In plan B, your WH will know what he has lost now that you are gone, and you will eventually come to a blessed peace. Plan B is for you to recover, and a clarion-call for your WH.

Debra, you are such a smart person, I see this in your posts. Please, for yourself, and even your WH, and your poor bewildered family: ACT!

Debra..I signed on just to talk with you. I am 57 and my WH is 65. He was 60 when he was lured by a 27 year old that worked for me. There have been many opportunities for me to blast it out of the water but i was afraid. Don't be afraid you have nothing to lose. Let him have his cake but no icing.!!! Truly truly I understand your frozen emotions. You have more power than you realize. My lesson played forward.

deborahs, please start your own thread so we can help you And welcome to Marriage Builders.

Deb, we here all want nothing but the best for you, having walked the walk you're forced to tread now.

Adrenaline not released by action has deleterious affects on the human body. "Fight or flight" does not accommodate "Ehhh, maybe later..." very well.

Take control, my friend.

I had no intention of picking fun about your spending habits,

I want you to understand the merit of the MB policies.

This site is about positive marriage building using the basic concepts.

Your M is in a crisis. The crisis is a third party being involved in your M, and your H inability to stop that relationship, and your inability to make a plan for recovery.

There are tools here, you need to pick up those tools and use them. ONLY you can decide what your requirements are for recovery, tho there are quite a few great examples here on the site.

Right now is a very crutial time for your M. Not firmaly establishing boundaries and rules and flip flopping about recovery is not going to help you, it will only reinforce to OW and your WH that you can be manipulated.

I really hope you have ordered SA.

I made appointment at clinic, but can't get in until Aug. 28. Will be checked for possible ulcer and STD's. Not looking forward to that, but I think it's necessary to ease my mind.

The day that I made the decision to end my crippled marriage was the day that I understood that I did have more power than I realized.

I also know that I'm suffering from very low energy right now. I am so tired! There is so much that I want to do, but just getting into the shower and getting myself dressed for the day is a major achievement.

Action! YES! Someone lend me some energy!

Debra, could it be a bleediing ulcer? Can you not take yourself to an emergency room? That would explain the low energy. I am in Canada so i know i could do this. I don't know if you have emergency centers or not. Take care.

So your husband has moved out? What is your plan to end your marriage?

Debra, you have passed the tolerance even i had to make my husband leave. It was around 17 days and i could take no more. I TOLD him to leave even though i knew he was going down the road to her. So what? It was better than sleeping with someone who smelled like someone else. You must stand up for yourself. They are not banished to flames..they still live. Make him pay the price. If he wanted just her he would already be gone.

Debra, have you ever heard the phrase "objects in motion tend to remain in motion"? Conversely, objects at rest tend to remain at rest. Do you understand that YOU need to get up and GET MOVING?? That's where you'll get your energy.

GET MOVING.

Debra.. are you okay? Is you're health okay? Don't fall down on the job. Muster something and move.

ds

You have my deep sympathy, Debra. You are dealing with such betrayal. One step forward every day. Have you written your plan B letter?

We're all here rooting for you.

Debra
I went through this for a few months after I filed. One thing that helped me was to set limits on how long I would be "down".

I would set my cell phone alarm at times and just shut down for that period of time and then either take some sort of action moving forward or to at least go out and be with people IRL. I tend to isolate.

I would also set time limits on working on paperwork for the D or packing contents of the house. When I knew before hand that an end for the day with whatever I was working on was getting closer it helped me to stay strong.

I pray medically you are alright. Seems like the 28th is a bit far out for an appointment.

Positive music also helped me alot and still does. This song came out somewhere around the time I filed.




Song


There are a lot of us that sit quietly in the background as others post advice we would only just be repeating with ours. We do care about you. Looking forward to an update soon.

nESRE

Deb,

How are things lately?

So much has happened in the last year.

It has been a bumpy year. My hubby and I ordered all the materials from the Marriage Builders website. Those materials are sitting in a drawer. The work on our marriage never came to fruition.

I went to the clinic and started taking an anti-depressant.

My hubby acted like a spoiled brat, having temper tantrums over nonsense. He was smashing things and scaring me. I kicked him of the house.

We were separated for several weeks and reconciled in March. During our separation, he formed a "dining and drinking" friendship with one of his regular male customers. I guess he needed someone to talk to, and this guy was in need of a bar companion. They spent lots of evenings out taking turns buying dinner and drinks. That continued after we reconciled.

It has been difficult to restore intimacy. My hubby doesn't pressure me, but I know he's not happy that we're not the way we used to be when we first met and fell in love.

But I have known in my gut for quite some time that my hubby is keeping secrets. He no longer charges his phone on the kitchen counter. He keeps it on him at all times and charges his phone at his place of business. He is gone most of the time and rarely spends a full evening with me. There's always a reason for him to come home late or to leave again after supper. I told him a couple of weeks ago that he couldn't continue to neglect me. We need to spend more time together if he wants to rebuild an intimate relationship.

When he left the house on Monday evening around 7 p.m. and still wasn't home by 12:30 a.m., I sent him a text letting him know that I was suspicious that something was going on. When he didn't respond, I just knew he was up to something and I sent him another text telling him not to bother coming home at all. He could go live somewhere else.

He came home and apologized for staying out so late. He said his cell phone was dead so he didn't get my text messages.

When he went to sleep, I placed a voice activated recorder in his work vehicle and let it sit there for three days. I retrieved it last night while he was sleeping and spent today listening.

Sometimes he would mutter to himself . . . things like "[censored]", "[censored]" . . . was he muttering that about me?

The voice activated recorder picked up all the road noises, so there was long times when there was nothing. Finally 2 hours into the recording I got to hear him talking on the phone.

He is still seeing that young woman. He promised me that he would never see her again, but now I know he is out drinking and partying with her . . . and his new male friend is right there with him. Apparently this young woman has several young female friends that the men find very entertaining.

The Monday night that he said his cell phone was dead . . . not true. I learned that she had texted him at 2:30 in the morning to find out why he was so angry. Well, he was probably angry because he did in fact get my texts telling him not to bother coming home.

At one point in the recording my hubby sat for a long time at a railroad crossing. He must have been deep in thought. About the time the train finally moved past and he could proceed, he muttered the words, "you're not my girlfriend; you're not my woman; why do I keep chasing that horse; I crossed the line; I got to stop before I'm really confused."

I just cried and cried. I knew it in my gut, but having proof of it tears me apart. If only those marriage builder books hadn't been placed in a drawer. If only....

And I have no one to talk to....

Debra, I'm so sorry to hear this. I went through many false recoveries myself and they did a great deal of damage to my emotional health. I know how much you are suffering.

However, I am concerned that you have allowed this to take place by not following the advice and plans you were given many times in this thread. Now you are back here, and your latest post sounds like dairy entry. You need to do much more than simply blog your updates. You need to take action to move yourself away from this affair, which, to confirm what you were told last year, your H has no intention of ending.

A year ago almost to the day, MelodyLane posted this to you:

Your next step should be Plan B, and perhaps filing for divorce.

You divorced your last husband in 1989 and moved in with this man in 1990. Were you involved with him while still married to your last husband?

I called my husband at work. His dining and drinking buddy was there when I called. I informed my husband that I KNEW that he was with OW on Monday night, that I KNEW that he was in love with her and had been in love with her for over a year, that I KNEW that he and his drinking buddy had regular nights out with OW and her friends. I told him NOT TO COME HOME. I'm done. He denied it, but the proof comes from his own mouth and I have it recorded.




I love my husband deeply. I know we put a Band-Aid on our troubles, but I wasn't ready to shove him out of my life. I know I was weak and depressed, please don't spank me for being human.



I divorced my first husband in 1989. I met my second husband 10 years later in 1999. We moved in together one year after we met in 2000. So, the answer to your question is NO.

I apologise. I misread your first post.

And has he moved out?

Are you here to be coddled and placated, or would you like help in developing a plan to solve this?

If you aren't interested in actually using Marriage Builders advice, we have other people that are.

It is understandable that you are hurting, but you can either stand there screaming at your bloody stump, or you can seek treatment.

Up to you...

Have you changed the locks and gone into Plan B?

Sorry you're back with the same pain.

Have you been tested for STD/I?

Have you seen this?
False Recovery-Need Voices of Experience

I remember your story Debra, and I see that all the advice that was given previously has not been used. Please let us know if you are willing to do the work to change the situation (and yes, that's going to mean separation). If so, people here can help. If you are going to remain in the same situation, then there is nothing we can do.

I feel beaten. Many of you have gone through this, and not one of you mastered the "plan" in the agonizing days/weeks following discovery, yet you think I have the magical power to do this exactly the way you tell me when you tell me. So, not only did I get a beating for trying to process this matter in my head and trying to deal with the emotions, I got a beating when I came to this board looking for the path to sanity.

Now I'm getting another beating. Can someone offer support and assistance without making me feel like the lowest piece of pond scum on this board because I can't do anything right? <--how many times have I beaten myself up because I'm a piece of crap that can't do or say anything right and I just can't take it again from all of you.

I'm a screw up. I admit it! Rub it in my face more, please...I can't get enough of that!

How can we help you get you into a dark Plan B?

Do you have an IM? When can you get him out?

We understand the pain.

Have you been to your doctor for some ADs?

Debra, the stories you read on the False Recoveries thread were either from people like me, who tried and failed to solve the affair problem our own long before we found this website, or from people who found the website and forum but did not take the advice. All of the failures regret not having been able to use Dr Harley's programme, whether through ignorance or unwillingness.

We are trying to get you to avoid going through what we went through. I myself had about 8 D Days and the damage they did to my sanity and also to the recovery of my marriage was immense.

People are trying to get you to act because you have already been through a year of this. Would you rather people gave you virtual hugs and told you that you were doing wonderfully, or would you rather they pushed you to act?

Your last post consists entirely of hitting out at people who tried to help you, and self-pity. Please tell me honestly what you hope to achieve by coming here and posting in that way.

You were asked questions by me and others. I asked you whether your H has moved out. Someone else asked whether you have written a Plan B letter and appointed an intermediary. Could you answer our questions, please?

Virtual hugs--not necessary; rubbing salt into my wounds--not necessary either because none of you can be as hard on me as I am on myself.

Nobody is rubbing salt in your wounds. We are trying to get you to get out of this harmful situation by pointing out that staying still is going to make things worse.

Still you are coming here and hitting out at us, and still you have not answered any questions.

This is not a site you come to in order to get support for your feelings.

This message board is for direction on figuring out and following the Marriage Builder plans for dealing with infidelity.

You are focused on how awful you feel without focusing on getting the heck out of the mess.

Stop blaming yourself for stuff and start respecting yourself as a

wife
woman
human being.

You must either do that or you will continue to feel awful.


Actions create feelings.

Debra,

We can only help you if you are willing to help yourself by doing steps that will include separation and no contact with him.

>>> Are you willing to do this? <<<

It's a yes or no. That's all. No hugs, no salt, just a yes or no.

debra, the terrible feelings and lack of self esteem are a huge part of your problem right now because you're making decisions to take the crumbs of what this man has to offer instead of demanding the feast he's capable of providing.

i have a feeling you knew over the last year that things were totally awry but just couldn't face it. because you're taking his bad behavior as some kind of reflection about your own lovability and attractiveness.

what he'd doing is not because you aren't good enough for him and whatever he provides is not worth the hell you're going through! please get your mind around executing a dark plan B. he will try to weasel out of it because he's a weasel.

you've got to get super tough!! SUPER TOUGH BECAUSE YOU ARE WORTH IT.

Can someone offer support and assistance without making me feel like the lowest piece of pond scum on this board...

You're somewhat caught in a snare of your own making, friend. The (only) "support and assistance" that is going to be found here is very much similar (if not identical) to that previously provided - that you chose to reject.

As many times as you ask, that same content, possibly packaged or positioned differently, is going to be offered. Our goal is not to berate you, or beat you down with our adamant advocacy of what is in effect the MB Program. It is entirely to reinforce that the elements we recommend are, in concert, the best (only?) way to extract you from what even you can now see is an unacceptable marital existence.

As an aside: The best way to deal with "pond scum on a board" is to remove it from the festering swamp in which it lies. Let us help you out, kiddo. Stop saying. "No!" and start asking, "How?"

Please read.
Conflict Avoidance is the Kiss of Death

Mistake No. 1.

Because of Mistake No. 1. He never ended the affair and/or you never addressed the issues that caused the affair in the first place. Am I wrong?

I think it would be more accurate to say that you kicked him out and then took him back. You didn't "reconcile'. You just took him back. Hence your continued problems. Nothing was changed.

So you continue to allow him to abuse your marriage by spending no time with you, drinking with young women and buddies, and who knows what else.

It is difficult to restore intimacy when your husband is out drinking and is spending next to no time with you. That wasn't how it was when you first met and fell in love, correct? If you want to rebuild your marriage, that will need to change.

Have you considered Plan B?